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Claims with no citations? You're either an idiot or an outright troll/liar.

A small sampling of the citations linked in the post in question:
http://www.city-journal.org/20...
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi...
http://www.umass.edu/legal/Ben...
http://www.jstor.org/discover/...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publ...
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub...
http://www.motherjones.com/pol...
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/abst...
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/abst...
http://www.jstor.org/discover/...
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinf...
http://www.jstor.org/discover/...
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles...
https://www.ncjrs.gov/app/abst...
http://qje.oxfordjournals.org/...
http://www.sentencingproject.o...
http://online.wsj.com/articles...
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/pa...
https://www.law.upenn.edu/live...
That's enough citations that I then have to add in this line because the stupid post filter thinks the average line length is too short. That's enough citations that I then have to add in this line because the stupid post filter thinks the average line length is too short. That's enough citations that I then have to add in this line because the stupid post filter thinks the average line length is too short. That's enough citations that I then have to add in this line because the stupid post filter thinks the average line length is too short. That's enough citations that I then have to add in this line because the stupid post filter thinks the average line length is too short.

If a 14-yo wants to be declared legally independent of his or her parents, I don't think most people would have a problem with it as long as he also became financially and criminally responsible for all his deeds as if he were an adult.

That is a bullshit strawman. Execution of juveniles in the US and other countries. Juveniles Life Without Parole Clearly large parts of the US are willing to convict a minor of heinous crimes. It is not a binary that once you reach 18 you're fully responsible and accountable for your actions and before that your parents are. So, yes, if a minor becomes emancipated they can obtain full legal responsibility for themselves, but obviously no, it's not a requirement to be emancipated to hold certain sub-18 ages to some degree of responsibility and hence to respect their rights.

Unfortunately, the way most [people] want it is that they get all the rights of an adult, but [someone else] still have to bear all the responsibility (including paying for food, clothing, and shelter).

Fixed that for you. And also, irrelevant to how legally they're treated. Germany just seems to recognize that it's better to start handing over degrees of autonomy and responsibility to will-be-adults. Crazy, eh?

The concept that a person of some given behavior is more likely to be locked up if he/she is of some ethnic origin other than white European, say, a black person, in America is incorrect.

That's just incorrect. There is plenty of evidence, shown in study after study, that shows there is a disparity in sentencing between white people and various ethnic and racial groups.
http://www.sentencingproject.o...
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB... http://www.theguardian.com/law...
https://www.law.upenn.edu/live...
https://www.aclu.org/sites/def...
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles...
So maybe you want to start your reply again, armed with this new information?

Your position seems to be that unjust sentencing disparity caused by the race of the defendant is prevalent, that your numerous links contain statements that support that conclusion, and thus my position regarding preferential treatment is wrong. If, by posting all of those links, you mean to advance some idea beyond unjust racial sentencing disparity, you didn't say so.

But sentencing is only one element or the criminal process. Who is chosen to arrest is important as well, and that's what I just pointed out. The focus of law enforcement is the first element in the criminal justice process. I gave the example of leniency given to a peaceful crowd sitting on a porch selling crack. Sentencing, however unjust, has nothing to do with that.

It would be unrealistically unwieldy for me to rebutt all the contents of all those links. It wouldn't even make sense to read them. However, the studies I'm familiar with that express your conclusion (racial sentencing disparity in general) are flawed. Please pick one, or one concept from one, that you like, and I will address it.

The concept that a person of some given behavior is more likely to be locked up if he/she is of some ethnic origin other than white European, say, a black person, in America is incorrect.

That's just incorrect. There is plenty of evidence, shown in study after study, that shows there is a disparity in sentencing between white people and various ethnic and racial groups.

http://www.sentencingproject.o...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB...

http://www.theguardian.com/law...

https://www.law.upenn.edu/live...

https://www.aclu.org/sites/def...

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles...

So maybe you want to start your reply again, armed with this new information?

Perhaps prison wouldn't be appropriate for an adult either, here? There is evidence that harsher punishment is counterproductive, increasing the chance of repeat crimes.

Yes, the reason for that is that putting criminals together, and putting minor offenders together with major offenders, socializes them in the ways of crime. They teach each other how to commit crimes. They get sent away for small-time pot dealing and learn how to steal cars and burglarize buildings.

There used to be some well-run juvenile correction centers that actually did work. My friend's brother wound up in one of them. They taught him to read, they taught him a trade (carpentry).

Unfortunately most of those places have been replaced by what amounts to torture chambers run like prisons by sadistic guards. It's the fault of both Democratic and Republican conservatives. It's mostly Republicans, but I can't let Bill Clinton off the hook. http://www.theguardian.com/us-... Tax cuts have eliminated the budgets. Here's the umpteenth expose of the juvenile justice system, by the Chicago Tribune http://www.chicagotribune.com/... That's Rahm Emanuel's territory. At one group home, the staff was billing for "television therapy" when the kids watched movies on TV.

One of the problems is that the American people have turned mean-spirited without compassion or concern for those who are having problems, as demonstrated by some of the posts here. If these people take over, America isn't going to be a very good place to live.

Perhaps prison wouldn't be appropriate for an adult either, here? There is evidence that harsher punishment is counterproductive, increasing the chance of repeat crimes.

A 1999 study tested this assumption in a meta-analysis reviewing 50 studies dating back to 1958 involving a total of 336,052 offenders with various offenses and criminal istories. Controlling for risk factors such as criminal history and substance abuse, the authors assessed the relationship between length of time in prison and recidivism, and found that longer prison sentences were associated with a three percent increase in recidivism. Offenders who spent an average of 30 months in prison had a recidivism rate of 29%, compared to a 26% rate among prisoners serving an average sentence of 12.9 months. The authors also assessed the impact of serving a prison sentence versus receiving a community-based sanction. Similarly, being incarcerated versus recidivism.

This is especially pronounced for low-risk offenders.

Researchers also find an increased likelihood that lower-risk offenders will be more negatively affected by incarceration. Among low-risk offenders, those who spent less time in prison were 4% less likely to recidivate than low-risk offenders who served longer sentences. Thus, when prison sentences are relatively short, offenders are more likely to maintain their ties to family, employers, and their community, all of which promote successful reentry into society. Conversely, when prisoners serve longer sentences they are more likely to become institutionalized, lose pro-social contacts in the community, and become removed from legitimate opportunities, all of which promote recidivism.

If one goes to the step of imprisoning people, then the prisons that perform best when it comes to low risk of preventing future crimes are ones like this one.

Check out this graph.

The nuimbers of prisoners has not declined significantly since 2009. This doesn't mean the bubble hasn't burst, the nature of the bubble resists bursting. People can leave the housing market, but prisoners can't leave the prison market.

Still, anyone who invested big-time in prisons back in 2008 or so on the basis of 30 years of exponential prison population growth was just stupid. We were approaching 1% of the Amercian population incarcerated, how much higher did they expect that to go?

I have no sympathy with a town that bet its financial future on prisons while its schools rate minimally acceptable.

* If bullies are frequently heard talking about how they're going to teach-someone-a-lesson, in your world does that mean we should let the abuse slide and just judge them on their poor teaching skills?

No, it means that we really need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

1. Just because you say "you're wrong" doesn't mean that I am.
2. Thanks for proving my second point for me.
3. Thanks for proving my first point for me. The guy you attacked didn't claim to have been bullied, much less to relish bullying others.
4. Nope. And even if I did, asking would be sufficient, not asking and then immediately following up with a charge that the parent bullied the child.

You've already solved it with 'punishment' which in your head seems to be abuse that's sanctified because of its 'educative' goals.*

Yep..

Of course, that's how perpetrators of any human vice justify their personal use. They alone, out of the whole human race, actually have a reason for their actions.

Name even one society which does not punish. Alternately, explain how a universal lack of punishment is a virtue. Because that is precisely where you've taking this given your rejection of punishment by judges, administrators and parents.

And again... troll.

Sadly, since stand your ground laws are fairly new, there isn't much data on this. Here are some interesting statistical comparisons though on racial disparities when it comes to crack and powder cocaine. Notice that there are a lot of factors at work here, some of which are related to the specifics of the laws, and some to which drugs are more targeted by laws. But at some point, the question has to be answered: why do so many factors conspire to create much longer sentences for black people convicted of cocaine crimes?

http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_stateratesofincbyraceandethnicity.pdf

See also the additional reading at the end.

Finally, "without evidence to the contrary, the police were legally prohibited from doing anything but taking the shooter at his word". Fair enough. But what do you consider evidence to the contrary? Assume for a second that the shooter's word is unreliable (motive in case shooting was unwarranted). What would constitute evidence that the shooter was not acting in self-defense? Wounds to the shooter's head? Could as well have been self-defense on the part of the dead guy. The point is that we really don't know what the police deemed lack of evidence, because the only thing that was in the police report was some bruises on the shooter. For me, identifying lack of evidence requires that there is at least evidence for searching - not just taking a look at a scene and going "yep, self-defense."

Stand your ground laws are doubly dangerous: they allow for confrontations to escalate quickly, and for the shooter to go away free as long as there are no witnesses to the shooting.

This is what I'm talking about. For some reason, black men are outliers in: not receiving an education, not getting a job, and landing in jail far more than any other racial group.

http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_reducingracialdisparity.pdf

These dynamics are partially true in regard to drug offenses, where African Americans are particularly overrepresented in drug arrests. Evidence of racially disparate treatment of drug arrestees is apparent by viewing the rate of reported drug use among African Americans. According to self-report data from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, African Americans constituted 14% of drug users in 2006, only slightly higher than their percentage in the general population. Yet African Americans represented 35% of those arrested in 2006 for drug offenses, 53% of drug convictions, and 45% of drug offenders in prison in 2004 (the most recent year for which prison data are available)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/20/national/20blackmen.html

The share of young black men without jobs has climbed relentlessly, with only a slight pause during the economic peak of the late 1990's. In 2000, 65 percent of black male high school dropouts in their 20's were jobless — that is, unable to find work, not seeking it or incarcerated. By 2004, the share had grown to 72 percent, compared with 34 percent of white and 19 percent of Hispanic dropouts. Even when high school graduates were included, half of black men in their 20's were jobless in 2004, up from 46 percent in 2000.

Incarceration rates climbed in the 1990's and reached historic highs in the past few years. In 1995, 16 percent of black men in their 20's who did not attend college were in jail or prison; by 2004, 21 percent were incarcerated. By their mid-30's, 6 in 10 black men who had dropped out of school had spent time in prison.

In the inner cities, more than half of all black men do not finish high school.

http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSTRE5190CB20090210

And guess who's going to be released? Violent criminals because those in prison for nonviolent drug offenses have minimum sentences. A good way to relieve the prison population, and the United States has the highest prison population in the world, is by freeing those in prison for nonviolent drugs offenses. Get rid of victim-less crimes such as the drug laws and the prison population can be cut by more than half [pdf warning].

Falcon

So, having stated that you haven't seen any data, and having implied that you discount the opinions of so-called "Leftists" (i.e. the only people in America who actually care about the unfairly incarcerated, or, lately, about human rights in general), and are therefore motivated to expose the problem), you then proceed to float an unsupported opinion. Now that's some mighty funny stuff right there.

That being said, if you are open-minded enough to read studies containing *actual data* from so-called "thinktanks" that support the notion that racial and other demographic disparities exist in criminal justice, here are a couple:

The Sentencing Project: Geography: The War on Drugs in America's Cities
Human Rights Watch: Targeting Blacks Drug Law Enforcement and Race in the United States

I found these on Prof. Douglas A. Berman's interesting Sentencing Law and Policy blog, which links to many other sources of the facts you seek.

To quote The Sentencing Project:

"Nationally, an estimated 5.3 million Americans are denied the right to vote because of laws that prohibit voting by people with felony convictions. This fundamental obstacle to participation in democratic life is exacerbated by racial disparities in the criminal justice system, resulting in an estimated 13% of Black men unable to vote."

Does anything more need to be said?

I hate that term, "race card." When you're talking about someone's life, it's not a game... so there's no such thing as a "race CARD." If you're going to bash someone for talking about something you deem meaningless, at least do _some_ research so you don't look like you're talking out of your ass. Start here: http://www.soros.org/initiatives/justice/articles_publications/publications/racial_disparity_20050128/ http://www.sentencingproject.org/IssueAreaHome.aspx?IssueID=3/ Also, what exactly is picking up 20 years of a heavily edited TV show targeted toward a non-affluent, poorly educated demographic supposed to say about jail sentencing disparities? As for not dressing like a criminal if you don't want to get harassed... Let me guess... your idea of rape prevention would be "not dressing like a slut?" Jeez dude, cops harassing people for how they're dressed (punk, hiphop, or whatever) is WRONG. That's not why they're there.

...Adrain may have little rights at all as a convicted felon (on probation to boot).

http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/1046.pdf

There are many state and federal felonies that basically negate your rights under the Constitution. For instance, this kid may never be allowed to leave the country. He may never be allowed to vote. So, giving the government a DNA sample may be a moot point. I will agree that the govt. having a DNA sample of any citizen is scary beyond belief, for a myriad of reasons, but convicted felons aren't exactly citizens anymore.

Interesting background report: http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/pub9036.pdf

In 48 states (with the exception of Maine and Vermont) and the District of Columbia prisoners cannot vote, in 35 states felons on probation or parole are disenfranchised, and in 14 states a felony conviction can result in a lifetime ban long after the completion of a sentence. Sentencing Rights

Its part of doing their time. So basically they're getting free room and board, cable TV, a gym and the internet? AND they don't have to pay taxes? Its more than I have and I'm not in jail.....

Not by far now, but maybe by far in 2010.

See http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/1046.pdf

Man, please do something for me next time. The next time you read something or hear something, take 5 seconds to double check and see if it even makes sense. See if it contradicts almost every piece of knowledge you have already previously aquired. Do you really think the U.S. is less free than Chine or the Middle East? If not, and you read something to the contrary, starting thinking. Start asking questions.

Yes, we should all reject data that conflicts with our preconceptions. My post was short to draw attention to the fact, and not bury it in an essay. I probably could have given a better citation however. Perhaps you'd like to play with the World Population Brief for a while. There's also a very highly recommended PDF from the Sentencing Project. Just because it conflicts with the dogma drilled into our heads in schools and the propaganda you see every day on american news doesn't mean it's not true. If everyone thought like you we'd still be doing astronomy with epicycles.

And frankly, no it doesn't contradict anything I know about the USA. The american government is currently waging a war on people like me. That kind of thing shocks you out of your comfortable illusions pretty quickly.

Now I'll be the last person to praise the governments in the middle east, but at least they're not deluded into thinking the goverment is working for them. According to my immigrant friends at least. Of course you appear to have first-hand knowledge of middle eastern legal systems, so maybe you'd like to confirm or deny that.

Note also that I never said america was "less free" than anyone. Just stated a fact and noted its irony. Perhaps it's you should try reading more critically.

LaRouche was jailed for 15 years for fraud and tax evasion in 1988. He has been out on parole since 1993. I guess that the sentence probably expired completely last year (parole can extend longer than the original sentence).

Isn't it interesting that if you commit a felony (which I assume that this is, as a 15 year sentence is nothing to sneeze at), you can still run for president, but in several states (PDF, sorry) can't vote for president, even after parolled. Kind of like how 21 year olds can buy beer, but 18 year olds can sell it.

Prisoners in China : 1,236,534

(note that China has about FOUR TIMES as big a population).

>Even if it were true, it tells me nothing about
>human rights. What it tells me is that we have
>lots of violent criminals in the US.

First off, that's inaccurate. Quote your source. What it tells me is that we have a lot of nonviolent drug offenders in the US.

After all, the US is a free country.

Do you believe in death after life?

Actually these people are far from rare - they constitute more than half the (U.S.) prison population, incarcerated for nonviolent offenses (most often for violating "stupid" laws against possessing and ingesting certain substances). Read this or other documents like it before making ridiculous claims about the efficacy of the U.S. prison system.

According to the Department of Justice, there are only 1,381,892 prisoners in the Federal Prison system.

A Far cry from 5%.

I'll grant that the U.S. is turning into a police state at a rather disconcerting pace, but we're not yet a prison state, and we've certainly not reached 5% of incarceration.

That having been said, according to sentencingproject.org we do incarcerate more people than any other nation.

If you wanna look at interesting US Prison statistics, consider the disenfranchisement of African Americans and Hispanic Americans quoted in this Scientific American article.

As an Asian-American, the fact that the justice system is so racially skewed is truly frightening.

It's racism if white "street punks" aren't hassled the same way, or when black kids are hassled because cops assume that of course they're street punks, because they're Walking While Black.

I'm frankly tired of people buying into the propaganda that cops would never ever hassle anyone that they shouldn't hassle, and any reports that the hassling might be slanted is just so much whining.

How about doing some reading on this sort of thing?

2% of the total population has lost the right to vote as a result of a felony conviction, and 13% of the black adult male population has lost their right to vote.

In eight states, 1 in 4 black adult males has lost the right to vote.