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85% of Chinese Citizens Like Internet Censorship
cynagh0st writes "A Pew Internet & American Life Project report indicates that of an overwhelming majority of Chinese people that believed the Internet should be 'managed or controlled,' 85% want the government to do this managing. This is resulting from surveys on Internet use over the last seven years in China. 'The survey findings discussed here, drawn from a broad-based sample of urban Chinese Internet users and non-users alike, indicate a degree of comfort and even approval of the notion that the government authorities should control and manage the content available on the Internet.' The report goes further into describing the divide in perspective between China and Western Nations on the matter and discusses the PRC's justifications for Internet control."
are in jail
What the article doesn't mention is the "visit" from an official shortly before the polling.
Something like... "The chinese national news reports tonight that 85% of chinese citizens like censorship".
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Look, a censored survey!
85% Chinese is afraid of the government.
are made up.
Survey of internet usage in heavily monitored society by outsider says all those inside "like" being monitored.
More at 11...
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
If I were living in China, I'd be wary (and probably afraid) of speaking out against gov't censorship and control of the Internet.
...15% of Chinese also like censorship.
*Statistics compiled by the Ministry of Statistics.
*Ministry of Statistics Motto:We're here to make sure you're happy about your statistics.
You mean people that spend all their life being managed and controlled want the internet to be managed and controlled?
I'm shocked I tells ya, shocked~
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
How did they perform this survey? I would have a feeling that the majority of people in China are in three or more similar categories:
1. Afraid to answer anything "anonymously" as they know better.
2. Afraid to answer anything other than what they think the State wants them to say (see #1).
3. Are so ingrained in the sheep mentality that they just don't know any better.
4. Are just like Americans and don't really care but don't lie about it.
I wonder how many no votes were censored.
For the common good.
...or another ostensible democracy, and asked the same question, I wonder what percentage would say "yes" here as well?
I think it might me much higher than most Slashdotters would believe.
So when the central government sanctioned and vetted Chinese Academy of Social Sciences comes round to ask if you like the government to censor your communications....
...how do you reply?
Don't get the answer wrong now will you.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
Seeing as how the data comes from within a censored and controlled system, let alone the possibility that the poll was taken under a certain amount of duress (i.e. take this poll, but we know who you are, and will monitor what you select) how accurate can this poll be?
fart=funny
I think we all like some censorship. I would like to avoid ever hearing about or seeing child porn and would not like my children to have access to easy recipes for explosives and drugs. (Access to scientific materials is legitimate and should be encouraged, and if they can find out how to make explosives and drugs from that, it's probably not a bad thing.)
technical writing / development
This seems obvious to me. I bet if you ran the same survey here in the states, it'd be 85% don't like censorship.
We don't live in Shouldland.
When people are raised in a certain way, they think a certain way. Often, children in abusive households become abusive themselves...
...
so... what about children raised in a red china communism 'I love the government' household?
To add to that problem, how can 85% of chinese vote for an option they've never experienced - if they are living 'well' enough, by their standards, and don't know differently, then why would they change?
I'd go as far to say that 99.99% of humanity thinks that censorship is a good thing as long as they get to pick what is censored from the rest.
Everyone wants the government to be their censorship tool. The government will happily censor stuff. It's just various groups want different things censored and want to be allowed to view their chosen content.
it's not enough to justify the infringement of a human right.
There is no majority large enough that stripping even one person of their rights against their will is justified.
"Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
Censorship like you!
Yes, I believe my government should censor possible violations of the law on the internet. Also, wouldn't you agree that comrade officer over there is doing a good job? Thank god he's in earshot in case something bad were to happen to me.
Most people are obey authorities they perceive to be legitimate.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
In a repressive government people will public speak party lines, most of them say it so much they start to beleave it. So the stats are not that unbeleavable. But I am sure if you can find a non-repressive government I bet you will still find a good number of people pro-censorship. Just as long as it is blocking information they don't want to hear.
Even on Liberal anti-censorship slashdot. Oposing view points are often quickly modded down just because people don't want agree with it or beleave it to be true. While it is not censorship in true sience of the word, it is a way for the moderators to say Hey I don't want people reading this, and if they do I don't want them to think it is a valad argument.
People are humans and humans feel threntoned by different ideas then their own, it doesn't matter if you have just a GED or a PHD you will feel threantoned by different ideas. When people feel threntoned they will try to move to higher powers to prevent the threat.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
If there was a poll among Americans asking if they felt that terrorism needed to be "managed or controlled" and if they wanted the government to do this managing, I bet the numbers would be similarly high. People aren't magically different across the globe. As long as the average individual isn't too badly off, they tend towards maintaining the status quo. In China this apparently gets translated to "I'm happy now. An influx of radical new ideas may upset this happiness. I'd rather things stay the way they are. The government needs to protect me from this." In the US this is "I'm happy now. An influx of radical terrorists may upset this happiness. I'd rather things stay the way they are. The government needs to protect me from this." You can substitute the fear du jour from almost any point in modern history with similar results.
The article states that 85% of the people who feel the internet *should* be controlled believe that the Government should be the one to do the controlling.
How many people in China felt that the internet shouldn't be controlled? And, with the political climate the way it is over there, how much can we really trust those numbers - even if the poll was administered by a supposedly neutral organizations?
I hate to say it, but its usually the case that people get the government that they deserve: the Chinese people don't want freedom, they want order and economic prosperity. So long as their authoritarian government "makes the trains run on time," they're perfectly happy with things. The same goes for countries in the middle-east, where so long as the government makes the usual denouncements of The Great (and Little) Satans in conjunction with the usual lines of praise to Allah, they dont care that they have no freedom (or in their case, even that they have no economic prosperity).
A better recent example is Burma. Could that government have survived for as long as it did without the support of a large share of its people? You may say that the military uses force to suppress its people, but who is it, exactly, that makes up the military? (answer: the people). I realize that this will be considered controversial, but should we really be feeling sorry for the people in Burma and China right now? If they had done something to rise against their government and replace it with one that actually addressed their needs, they would have less of a problem right now. And don't say that they couldn't do anything, that they feared for their lives should they stand up for their rights. Thanks to their inaction, now they're just as dead.
That generations of oppression, fear and propaganda really is pretty effective in brainwashing your people.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
it also is the question your asked and who asks it.
Take voting in the DNC primary, by all accounts and polls one candidate should be getting even more votes than they are getting yet once behind the privacy of the voting booth they don't get them.
Some questions make people uncomfortable whether their freedom is in jeopardy or not. It is also instinctive in some people to give the answer that they believe the questioner wants regardless if its a true one.
While I do agree China is a special case I have seen friends answer complete strangers in what I knew wasn't what they believed but instead what they wanted the questioner to believe.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
and second, the stats are wrong
How many people in Europe and the US want the net to be censored?
Including child pornography, illegal material, the anarchist cookbook, DeCSS, Nazi propaganda sites, etc?
The level of censorship in China is obviously leaps and bounds beyond anything else in the world, and I'm not suggesting otherwise. but I think that people overestimate the meaning of free speech to the average citizen. As long as it doesn't bother them, most people don't have any problems whatsoever when extremists, deviants, weirdos, and the like are censored, as long as it doesn't directly concern them and the stuff they're interested.
The majority of people in China are not interested in politics, both traditionally, and because it's been a bad idea to be involved in politics for the last 50 years. So if they don't read Dalai Lama's speeches, Japanese version of history, or Germany's take on political freedom in China, they don't particularly care, as they're not interested in it in the first place.
Even here, people clap happily as the FBI and similar agencies in Europe freely read our emails, search our computers, confiscate hardware, all in the name of counter-terrorism. Make a Pew poll in Europe and let's see how many average people have a problem with this?
The situation in China is obviously far worse, but instead of patting ourselves on the back and going on about evil Chinese and how much better we are, it would be wise to draw some parallels.
Maybe it is my western sensibilities, but it seems possible that the 85% might be analogous to the Patty/Tanya and Symbionese Liberation Army episode if the metaphor is stretched; victims undergo some mental change of perspective and become willing followers of those who "kidnapped" them...?
Is the headline actually proper grammar someplace in the world? I know in the US it would be "85% of Chinese like Censorship". I know that in the UK you have this weird thing where you refer to a single corporation in the plural, but this is referring to a plural with the term for a singular...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I live in a post-communist country and I remember the communism very well. Most people in the Czech Republic, before the fall of communism, would probably answer "yes, we agree with the goverment" in any poll, regardless of the question, if they just weren't absolutely sure that the authorities wouldn't know their answer. Because free expression of opinion, in such a country, may mean anything from financial loss to death.
SHE does throw dice.
90% of Americans probably think the Internet should be "managed and controlled" and at least half of those people think it should be the governments responsibility.
What happens if you ask the Chinese "should the internet be censored?" - I assure you, the yes rate would plummet.
Isn't that the whole idea behind brainwashing? They realized that they love big brother!
It takes freedom to understand what freedom is. If they don't know anything other than censorship then it has to be OK, right?
Question 1. Do you believe that there should be a way for Law Enforcement officials to identify those on the internet who engage in illegal activities, for the sake of protecting the naive or easily prayed upon?
Question 2. Do you want us to have the power to know what you buy online, what your daughter looks like in a bikini, and read the email you sent to your working-away-from-home husband (Paul) with that photo of you(?) in the black and scarlet red corset (and not much else)?
If you answered differently to both of those questions, your opinion is not valid for this survey.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
There are tons of reports contradicting this analysis, but unfortunately they have been censored.
85% of Chinese likes censorship, the other 15% likes subject-verb agreement.
Or are we taking about one man from Beijing whose left arm is he only part that's in favour of free speech?
At the bottom of the
Crest reports that 4 out of 5 dentists agree...
He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
I see a lot of posts on various internet forums espousing the idea that we should love the Chinese people even though their government is so frighteningly oppressive and corrupt. If polling like this is the norm and truly reflects the reality of the Chinese citizenry, it means that they either tacitly or wholeheartedly approve of their government's human rights abuses. If that is the case, then the enemies of freedom ARE the Chinese citizens.
While an unpopular idea, for sure, it looks to be true to me.
If you ask the people of North Korea whether their government is benevolent and is looking out for their best interests, I'm sure you would find that better than 85% would agree that it is. All the while, they're foraging in the woods for weeds and tree bark to eat as their Dear Leader cavorts with hookers back in one of his many palaces.
Living under such a totalitarian regime does have a tendency to affect your opinions.
What semi-literate posted that?
Anyway, the summary is misleading as well as poorly drafted. If you read TFA, it's not a simple survey about "Censorship: good or bad?", it was about the perils of the Internet, and whether the government should protect users from porn, stalkers, malware, fraud. Put in those terms, you'd get similar answers anywhere. And of course, Chinese are not stupid. Those that DO have misgivings about government controls are exactly the people who suspect that every word they write is monitored.
Guo said that the explanation for this increase probably lies in the spate of widely publicized incidents of fraud, blackmail, sensationalism, and other abuse of Chinese citizens via the internet. The Chinese word used for "politics" in this survey, zhengzhi, is not confined simply to political rights or competition for political control but may be understood to include larger questions of public morality and social values. While I love bashing Communists, the report simply doesn't allow it. It appears to be more of a cultural, rather than political, difference.
Pretty damn interesting, actually.
"The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
While that is likely part of the case I'm guessing that a large portion of the population truly believes that censorship is the best thing for them. This means that the censorship and propaganda machine is doing exactly what it is designed to do. Intelligent people being informed only by what the propaganda machine wants them to know are saying that the internet is bad and the government is protecting them from it.
I'm much more worried about a government that rules by manipulating the minds of its population than one that simply rules out by fear and intimidation.
It's possible that the chinese do understand fully the implications of censorship, but that they still think that it's a good thing. This goes back to the discussion of democracy... just because we as westerners think it's the best form of government and would never live in a tyranny, doesn't mean that other peoples around the world think that too. Some societies like tyranny, as well as living in a big brother society.
When it comes to government, one size does not fit all.
You know, its easy to paint everyone in China as a victim of internet persecution, but maybe the Chinese really do want a regulated and censored internet. I mean, think about it. China is a very conservative society. If the Chinese government really could block all porn, criminal sites, spyware sites, or even plain disruptive content, and everything like it, then, a lot of people who actually like where their country is headed wouldn't think too much of giving up the right to criticize their government in order to get their "safer" internet. I mean, if George Bush had won Iraq, and USA GDP was growing by 10% a year, real US wages were doubling, everyone was building like crazy, new skyscrapers were popping up everywhere, then, who would really be complaining?
This is my sig.
The chinese have been slaves to their masters for so long they don't know what they are missing. I swear, they steal our patents, copy our music, copy all our designs, taint our food with poisons, poison our kids with lead. I think what this survey should say is that ONLY 85% of chinese approve of censoring. It just goes to show that the thoughts and hearts of the Chinese people are controlled by the Chinese gov't. Why companies are handing over design and development to these people is something I will never understand.
Seriously, I wonder if those numbers would be far off from how Americans would reply. After all, with all of those news reports about all of those pedophiles and evil-doers on the 'net, while I suspect the number would be lower, I don't think it'd be 0%.
See, that's why we have a representative government backed by a constitution and founded on a culture of respect for individual rights and not a pure democracy: because sometimes the majority is not right, and it's important to have a check against what may seem to be "politically fashionable" but ultimately destructive.
...if it's told consistently and often enough.
So most Chinese think that internet censorship is necessary and good because they're told over and over that it's necessary and good.
After being lied to by our own administration about the need to invade Iraq to "prevent terrorism", 41% of Americans believed Saddam Hussein was directly involved in "planning, financing, or carrying out" the September 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center.
And this is in a society that purports to believe in the benefits of being free, and having been lied to a lot less convincingly than most Chinese are about the need for governmental internet control.
Next up, turning a scientific consensus into a "hotly contested issue". Evolution, the human effect on global warming, pick one.
I would appreciate the freedom for people to be anonymous if it didn't make alot of people into assholes and didn't keep you from knowing which of the people were the same asshole.
I don't think the extremes China takes is comforting, either. The good thing about being anonymous, even when you're using a different name, is you can pretend to be whoever you want to be, and sometimes that just makes talking about what you really need to talk about a little easier.
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
When I was in China, it was very clear that everyone there was totally okay with the government handling everything. When talking to our guide, the biggest thing the people like about their government is that they get stuff done, with little to no red tape.
They're born and raised under government control, and in the last decade China has seen more people raised out of poverty than any other time in its history. It's not hard to see why they might think the government is pretty good.
Did the sampling take propaganda into consideration ? From what I've read from the report, the general concern isn't about free speech but about red herring issues such as internet addiction about internet gaming, porn, violence etc. Some thing that Jack Thompson would thrive at. If the government is able to control the message about the purpose of the internet censorship, such poll can be easily swayed. I also think the title is very broad, I doubt 85% will support censorship on basic rights to voice opionion
If anyone actually reads the report, it's more insightful and interesting than you might first think.
While the generic comments posted here about china may have some truth, the story seems to go much deeper.
Not everyone in the survey is actually an internet user, for starters. Also, much of the control and management is about controlling porn, spam, and advertising. Only 41% of them think there should be management of politics.
The press in china also seems to have highly publicized many negative stories involving fraud, scams and other bad things that can happen on the internet. So it's not surprising many chinese don't trust it. When all you hear on the news is stories of murder, it doesn't exactly make you feel safe.
Right, and 99% of the people in Iraq voted for Saddam Hussein in the final election before he was removed from power. Not that this number is suspect in any way. ;-)
Sigh.
Unless the Chinese asked were older than 65, they are unlikely to even know what it's like without government "control". It's akin to asking a wild mustang if he likes horseshoes.
Windows has detected an undetectable error.
Oh please. Stop this. Seriously. This gets regularly trotted out by people who have no concept of what censorship actually is. Do you know who actually does the "censoring" in Slashdot? You do. You, by setting your preferences to filter out comments under a certain threshold, you remove someone's ability to be read. As a result, you're the censor on slashdot. Not CowboyNeal, not the moderators, but you - and you alone. So stop blaming others for your actions.
Not to mention that telling others that an opinion is worthless is not the same as censoring. Sometimes, I wish people would spend some time in a country that actually does censor speech, so that they understand the difference. Censoring speech: someone breaks your fingers or throws you in the slammer for propagating illegal/unwanted opinions. Moderating: a mark that tells others "Warning - stupid person talking."
Normally, confusing the two is a sign that the person is 13 and hasn't gotten to political science in high school yet, but that'd make your UID too low. I can only assume you're just confused.
I also have no idea how you managed to misspell "threatened" like that.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Did they include the prison population in this?
I wouldn't be so quick to assume the results of this thing are wrong.
I know this is anecdotal, but I used to know a kid who was an exchange student from China. He was always talking about how crazy American media was for criticizing the Bush administration over the war. He basically saw it as being "treasonous" (his words).
I find it disconcerting that whenever a poll comes out which shows that people who come from totally different cultural backgrounds feel differently than we do about democracy/censorship, everybody starts crying foul play.
I'm not saying that I don't like democracy or the freedom of press; I fuckin' love it. I just don't necessarily think that everybody everywhere has to feel the same way.
So: "do you beleive in free speech?" 99% of the respondents say yes (1% don't know)
Or: "Should the internet be regulated, to protect your children?" .. now we're getting into interesting territory - I'd be willing to bet that most parents of 18 or less year-olds would say yes.
How about: "Should the ISPs do more to reduce pornography on the internet?"
Try this: "Is it reasonable for your employer to restrict your net surfing?"
Finally: "Do you think the government should protect internet users from violent or inappropriate content?"
Now tell me: which one of these questions defines censorship? The answer will depend on your individual outlook and where you live, whether you're responsible for other people. The final point about censorship is that no matter what your personal opinion of it is, you don't have the right to impose your view on others. Even if they're in favour of it and you think you know better.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
makes me think of that commercial, 90 percent of statistics can be right 50% of the time. "yea that sounds about right"
goes a long way
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
The title is f'ing retarded. It has nothing to do with how many Chinese like censorship, but rather of the people that do, how many prefer that the government does it versus someone else doing it.
It has been spun to mislead the reader into thinking that 85% of Chinese approve of the act of censoring by itself, which is not the case. That number is not given because we are meant to assume it is 85% (or 100%).
Arguing about vi versus Emacs is like arguing whether it's better to make fire by rubbing sticks or banging rocks.
Sure 85% prefer it. They base all of their opinions on information that has been filtered through the govenrment, so why would they think it's bad if the government tells them it's good? They don't know why it would be bad, and why information that the government is blocking could be useful. They don't even have the context to put that information in even if they do have access, so they would probably have a skewed view on what they would be seeing anyway. This poll is pretty worthless. If there are any citizens of China that are qualified to comment on this they would have to not be exposed to the censorship, and then be asked what they feel about the topics China is censoring. The poll conducted in the article is useless.
Twinstiq, game news
Does this speak to communist conditioning or is it simply another poorly worded slashdot headline? I'd wager that most Americans would answer similarly, thinking "managed or controlled" were managerial terms vice sinister terms. As to the government doing the controlling, isn't that how communist governments train their people to think?
Invenio via vel creo
Humans are a dirty, disgusting, and very stupid species which needs to be exterminated with extreme prejudice. This is the only way that we can solve our problems. I would like to advocate an all out nuclear exchange of all superpowers in order to promote the general balance and welfare of all creatures living or dead. And not in a few decades or a few years, not even later today. But RIGHT NOW. Preferably before I can even hit the submit button.
of an overwhelming majority of Chinese people that believed the internet should be "managed or controlled," 85% want the government to do this managing.
so what that says is *of* an existing unreleased number of people that already want the internet to be controlled, 85% of that existing unreleased number want to government to to that managing.
so without that unknown number, this means practically nothing.
cleverly titled:
85% of Chinese Likes Censorship
sad.
Those things, of course, are how most people measure the effectiveness of government; generally, all they require is some measure of stability.
Because of that, a bit of censorship here and there is easily overlooked by many, as they have plenty to enjoy in their lives. The richer your life, the more you can tolerate.
In particular, the constant condescending remarks and expectations that they will "liberate" themselves, inviting you as their new overlords (that I, for one...).
Seriously do you think that it's completely impossible that if every time someone sticks his nose outside of national media he is bombarded with foreign propaganda that for half a century is trying to turn everyone against a government that he happens to like, he may WANT this stream of offensive shit to be silenced? Did you, guys, also like being teased and bullied in school? Because in the eyes of average Chinese your "oh, they should be given FREEE-EEE-DOM!!!" sounds about the same.
Someone once shown the Google Image Search result for "Tiananmen Square" in censored and uncensored versions, supposedly to show how evil Chinese government and Google are. What he probably didn't notice was that uncensored version not merely included but consisted almost entirely of 1989 photos (of what a single photo dominated the list) -- it would be impossible to derive from it what Tiananmen Square actually is beyond the fact that it was a site of protests and massacre. It's an equivalent of trying to get information about Dallas, TX, and getting nothing but Kennedy assassination photos and articles speculating about its organizers.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
99.99% of Chinese people agree that polls and elections should be manipulated for the greater good.
85% want the government to prevent the other 15% from being free.
That's democracy.
And yes it sucks.
So please, stop equating democracy with freedom, stop equating democracy with "good". The democratic turn in the 21th century has brought less freedom, not more.
\u262D = \u5350
The issue here is the rapid development of China. In some thirty years they've gone from a luddite agrarian society to a modern superpower. For most people in charge, when they were growing up high-tech was farm equipment. This view won't change until people who grew up with technology start to get power.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_(2002_film).
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
Thanks for the karma but whoever modded that comment of mine as "interesting" needs to stop moderating while high on drugs! If you just want to waste your mod points why not pick a comment, no matter how banal, that aligns with your POV and mod it "insightful". At least your would be pushing your agenda.
Bah! For others who don't have a clue, I was just going for an obvious joke. Man! When I have to point out that I made a joke, I feel like a post-modern (wannabe) comedian or something.
PS: For those that don't know the Slashdot moderation system "funny" mods don't affect your karma.
What I am more willing to believe is this: 99% of the people in China don't even HAVE internet access, let alone have an opinion on it; the 1% left are the "elite", and 99% of them are Chinese government lap-dogs, doing precisely what they're told to do, because they don't want their families to die in labor camps.
Actually I believe this is entirely possible. I think folks are forgetting that the culture in China is quite different from the culture in the US. I should know, both my parents immigrated to Canada. At times I find it challenging to get along with them due to cultural difference and I myself feel like I'm wedged between both worlds at times. You only need to look at the history to understand it a little better. Most Chinese are use to a socially stable monarchy that's lasted for centuries if you look at China's history while in North America we're mostly all immigrants who gambled everything on freedom to survive. Most Chinese at least traditionally prefer a stable secure lifestyle even if it means giving up a few personal freedoms while I would think that in North America most of us would like to prefer the opposite. Both lifestyles come with their benefits and disadvantages. I've read the recent National Geographic articles that some parts of China are rapidly modernizing or westernizing however you may see it. It's sadly creating huge rifts between the generations because along with it comes cultural changes.
I was going to mod some comments as Flamebait until i realised the whole article and most of the comments should me modded as such, then gave up.
Especially the first comment makes me tired. It's just a few words long, is obviously a flamebait, but got +5 insightful. Pff...
I, as a westerner living in a democratic country and believing in Freedom of speach and such, am more than tired of seeing my peers giving great lessons of Life and Politics to the others. Speaking out opinions is good. But shutting up and thinking before speaking also.
I know i'm getting horrible modding on this one, but I don't care, that will partly prove me right.
My
I would say that 99.99% of the Chinese people with an AK-47 muzzle to their temple would agree that the Chinese government should censor the internet...
Is it just me, or does the summary defy the headline? From the summary: "...report indicates that of an overwhelming majority of Chinese people that believed the internet should be 'managed or controlled,' 85% want the government to do this managing" (emphasis mine). So really, they aren't saying 85% of Chinese people like censorship, they're saying 85% of some nebulous 'overwhelming majority' like government-controlled censorship. Not really a meaningful statistic at all.
-- There, everybody likes a gorilla.
It's easy to think, "Wow, that's crazy," but then, an atheist doesn't stand a chance in hell of being President of the United States of America. (Pun only slightly intended.) I think that's pretty stupid.
Not saying one's better or worse than the other, just that no country has a monopoly on stupid citizens.
To Godwin or not to Godwin, that is the question.
Since 4 thirds of people don't get fractions.
You really have to read the details in order to understand what is being asked here. The survey results show that the content people want controlled are pornography (87%), violent content (86%), spam (83%), advertisements (66%), and slander against individuals (64%). "Politics" came in much lower at 41%, and as the results say, the word they use is not just for raw political power but the more general issue of "public morality and social values." Therefore, the 85% that want greater "censorship" are looking for regulation, not necessarily the silencing of dissidents or censoring critics. This would be similar to the rather strong desire in many Western countries by the general public for greater regulation or policing of the Internet on issues such as identity theft, child pornography, Internet fraud, etc. The Chinese also naturally go to the government as the first authority to control the Internet because this is the authority that traditionally handles these sorts of issues in Chinese society. Again, given the types of issues that they're primarily concerned with, it's not surprising why they went to the government first.
When either (A) the Chinese Government is taking the survey or (B) something could "happen" to them if they respond negatively to it.
Sorry, but this 'survey' is about as reliable as a survey made by Karl Rove.
Today they have general government censorship without personal control. If the government provided general censorship of the Internet, but offered citizens specific censorship (that is, being able to filter or unfilter content for specific interest), would citizens prefer that over what they have today? Is this a matter of a lazy nation not wanting to be hassled with the time it takes to censor their own internet? Is this poll skewed by a nation fearing their government will take action against them, or does government censorship sits well in line with this lazy communist mindset?
This is like asking a blind person their favorite color. If you've never had uncensored access how do you even know? And to reiterate earlier posts, they did not ask about censorship but control. If you're a chinese citizen, are you going to say to ANYONE, let alone foreigners, that you disapprove of the way the glorious PRC is handling its control of..well.everything? No, you'd be scared shitless to say such a thing. This study is worthless other than to tell us what we already know, that China is a fucking scary hellhole if you question anything at all.
Happiness does not come from having much, but from being attached to little.
The citizens of Myanmar don't want outside help said a group of Myanmar men who were gathered to dig trenches to bury the dead, while the military watched closely above, guns in tote.
Yeah, yeah. I likes it very much.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Because, of course, given the choice, everybody would think just like you.
My wife is from the PRC and we discuss this all the time. She thinks (correctly) that you cannot trust any goverment, but almost every one of her friends, some Naturalized citizens and/or professors, all say basically the same thing to me when I bring this up.
...
They say, "How can you believe something if it's not filtered by some source like the government to verify that it's true?"
I'm always astonished by this response. It's like it's brainwashed into them via their schools. I find it frustrating, but how do you even reason with someone who thinks like that?
My wifes uncle has a Phd and is naturalized as an American for over 15 years still thinks that. I almost feel like I'm talking to a child when he says that crap, but he's much more accomplished than me.
I think people that believe the government is your friend and are there to help missing a chip
85% thought the government was conducting the poll.
If you live in a totalitarian dictatorship and your phone rings and someone says, "I'm conducting a poll for the blah blah blah organization that you've never hear of before, do you think our glorious leader is a really great guy or do you want needles under your fingernails?" How do you answer?
In a place where people legitimately fear speaking the truth, all polls are biased.
-- QED
That's exactly what I'd have expected. Virtually no one thinks, "wouldn't it be a great idea to censor X?". They think, "You know, this is probably bad for our kids. I don't think it's helping our society. Let's see what can be done about it." That's what the Chinese government are trying to do, and that's what the chinese people are voting for. The whole "censorship" notion is just western bias, by idiots who don't realise that our own cultures do exactly the same thing.
I surfed the Chinese internet and media and found nothing that would make me believe this practice isn't perfection itself.
The gov't also has these nice pamphlets handed out by the armed peace-protectors telling me so.
think "internet" is not supposed to be capitalized...
do not read any reliable source of information and believe you can wage a war on terrorism.
Don't you know it is now both immoral and criminal to think beyond the next quarterly report?
The People get the government they deserve.
Mentioning Gitmo might be a valid rebuttal and not an offtopic troll, however:
The United States are the only country where if you disagree with the government they will give you a beautiful orange suit and send you for a life vacation in Guantanamo Bay, without right of court, a lawyer or a bail...-1, factually incorrect. People aren't being rounded up and sent to Gitmo because they disagree with American policy. They are being sent there because they were captured as illegal combatants and/or provided support to a terrorist orginization. We can debate the wisdom and legality of that all day if you'd like -- but the fact remains that the GP made blatantly incorrect statements that appear designed to incite anger -- not a productive conversation.
I'll be marking this moderation as 'fair' on the off chance I see it in meta-mod. I would encourage everybody else to do the same.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
And I don't like censorship. Oh, wait, may be I do. I just don't know it yet. I'm sure the government already voted "preferred" for me on the survey.
I can see how this can happen. Just because you live in the United States it does not mean that the whole world plays by your rules.
I grew up in the former Soviet Union and moved to the states when I was a teenager. I clearly remember the culture shock. Also, I have plenty of friends whose parents are still struggling with the fact that things are different in the U.S. as opposed to what they were used to. For example, in Russia a politician can go on state-run news program and openly blame Jews for everything. Want to see a steamy scene in a movie? No need to go to a theater. Just watch some of the flicks on TV. However, do not attempt to criticize the government!
In the U.S. you can have a bumper sticker that says "Fuck Bush" and nobody will stop you from expressing your views on a blog. And thousands will have heart attacks when they see a nipple on a TV screen during a Superbowl broadcast. Go figure...
This is why the future of "Brave New World" is more frightening that that of "1984." It's hard to control beings who have a nature to resist it; it's far more effective to change the nature of those people to want to be controlled.
... and control, moderation or plain censorship will be the option most will pick, anywhere. Do you want that your pre-10 kids access all the internet? Do you want your daugther's boyfriend to access all the internet? That crazy man of the other block? Your husband/wife? Dont you want to avoid to hit places with exploits for your current configuration/OS/browser or well-known scammers?
Once you get to the point of "yes, would want some control access to some places on internet for some people", drawing the line of what is out and whats in is very subjective, but probably 85% of all internet users could like to have a line drawn somewhere.
In fact, i would like that most ISPs provide for free (OPTIONAL) proxies for their IP range that do content filtering for virus/kids safe browsing.
85% of prisoners at Guantanamo prefer water boarding to electric shocks administered through their nipples.
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Tomato wedge sperm darts that are Republican.
This statistic brought to you by the Chineese Department of State Sponsored Censorship. Move along, nothing to see here...
Oppressive societies program their people. For example, I remember when I was a kid, I thought it was good I only had 3 TV networks to pick from. That was oppression.
In a related note, a large percentage of women who have lived their entire lives under a hood, when asked, will say they prefer it as well.
And in my work with mexican immigrants in get out the vote campaigns near our southern border, I've found that they will leave a voter line if they think they are going to be asked questions, and not even vote. Why? They say its because in Mexico people could be harassed in a voter line, and its safer in that moment to disappear...
Fear is real, and distorts these kinds of things.
The masses do not always know what's good for them, and they may not be willing to share it with you, even if they do.
Thank you! I'm disappointed that the almost universal response here is that the survey must be flawed in some way because it was taken in China, and of course any information coming out of China must be untrustworthy. We (read: Westerners (read: Americans)) don't get to take the moral highground on this, at least not anymore.
It seems very difficult for us to accept the fact that not not everyone in the world agrees with us on what is right, and we can't ram our ideas down their throats in the name of "freedom." Well, I guess we can, but it doesn't mean freedom anymore. Sound familiar?
They have much higher standards of decency (ie. no Hebrewood and televitz sleaze thank you very much).
They work better as a team (ie. no top executives skipping off with billions thank you very much).
I hate to put it so bluntly but:
Try living here - for a while.
And it will make sense. Its just different in a way you cant describe and it isnt as wrong and black and white as our sillly minds would like it to be. This society is a rich and diverse organism, even a laowai like myself is a part of that whole. And I dont fault the government for how they work.
It is capitalism, socialism, democracy and dictatorship all rolled into one.
With Chinese characteristics and for the goal of social harmony.
If you dont get those two jokes then you dont even have a glimpse of how one fifth of the world works.
---- The real Slashdot is still here. You just have to browse at -1 to read the comments.
And the other 15% are being taken into a back room for questioning and harrasment. Really, where would a stat like this come from and why would people vote like that?
just goes to show what a JOKE democracy really is. most people are too god damned dumb to make any important decisions.
-1, factually incorrect. People aren't being rounded up and sent to Gitmo because they disagree with American policy. They are being sent there because they were captured as illegal combatants and/or provided support to a terrorist orginization.
Or because the US government paid people a bounty to turn in their neighbors as terrorists, without requiring any proof.They are being sent there because they were allegedly captured as illegal combatants and/or provided support to a terrorist orginization
FTFY. Everyone in Gitmo is an innocent man according to our laws.
Like I said, we can debate the wisdom and legality of Gitmo all day long. Personally I want to see it closed down ASAP and those within given every bit of due process that I'm entitled to as an American citizen.
None of that changes the fact that the GP was a blatant troll designed to stir up a flamefest though.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Interesting to read all the "this can't be true" comments. In painstaking detail every possible flaw of the study is pointed out.
But what if?
What if there is not flaw, not oppression, no faking?
Are you living in denial? Denial that other people elsewhere actually might believe different things? Can you allow other people to have different values and priorities? When the french value honesty over oil, america runs a huge campaign against them. But compared to many asian and african cultures, the differences between french and american culture is tiny.
It's not unbelievable that the study could simply - you know - true.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Just like 99% of the Iraqi population "voted" for Sadaam Hussein in 2002.
Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
My local Chinese restaurant. Never again will I order the Moo Goo Gui Kitten or Bitch and Broccoli.
This is easily extended to citizens of the US, UK, or numerous other counties. You should be wary of your negative comments towards the ruling power. Especially in electronic formats.
-- Wondering how long until the internet becomes fully corporatist, like television.
"illegal combatants" is an arbitrarily defined term invented by the very government that does the jailing for it. Likewise, "terrorist organization" is an arbitrary term that doesn't even have an official definition. I'm pretty sure I know at least one reason why: It would be awfully hard to find a definition that would not include the CIA, Mossad or other "friendly services".
So in summary, arbitray foreign people are sent to Gitmo for arbitrary reasons. That's slightly better than for speaking out against the government, but only very slightly, and only because of the "foreign" in there.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
You can't take the sky from me...
Who says that the grandparent is incorrect? Because you don't know anyone who was rounded up for sedition, nobody is?
As I lived in China for the past few years, I notice that China is a much less law-abiding place. In the U.S., if there is a law -- like paying tax, then for most normal people -- no matter how much you dislike the law, you would obey it somehow. The ones who try to deliberately avoid it would do it very carefully -- finding loophole or un-approvability before they evade a law.
In China, people just bluntly ignore the law and fabricate false evidence outright. For example, the Chinese tax law accounts for a sale if an official receipt (known as Fa Piao issued by the tax bureau); the buyer can use that to deduct expense and the seller pays tax. Sounds simple. But in many places, the Fa Piao you got is fake because the business just acquire a whole bunch from the black market. So you have to check the authenticity of the Fa Piao as you check the money.
There are plenty of examples from daily live, labor and business practice, to birth control policy, where everybody just break the laws regularly and never even feel nervous about doing that. Criminal laws (outright steal, robbery, murder) are one the few regular people obey -- probably due to better enforcement.
Yet at the same time, people do not like a lawless society and they often blame ineffective government enforcement. I think that's why 85% people are OK with government control with the Internet -- they just want others to obey rules, not themselves.
That's why people never worry too much about censorship or government regulation in general and are quite free. Only we in the West worry about these laws.
Okay, smart guy, pull the court records and PROVE what you just said is true.
You can't, not in most cases, becasue there haven't been that many court trials.
You remarks are -2. -1 for factually incorrect & -1 for falacious argument.
"I disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it. Your death, preferably.
or they were sent there because Americans were paying 1000$ per person for Pakistani's to turn over "Al-Queda" to them or because they were a journalist for Al Jazeera or because they took a connecting flight through the US... Very, very few people in gitmo have been convicted of anything...
"You have the government you deserve."
Scott Adams said it best: http://www.dilbert.com/2008-05-08/
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
If Jim calls Bob's dog out of control because it pissed on his shoes, it is not logical for Bob to respond by saying that his dog clearly is not out of control because it has not yet mauled Jim to death.
Cow Cube
Look. Everyone here is pretending they are experts of Chinese and anouncing how bad the Chinese government is. My question is how much do you know about China and its government. Do many of you ever go there? Any of you ever sit in front of computer and do a search in China trying to find out what you can find or not? Experts!
It is if the only behavior that Bob cannot control is the dog mauling people.
Avoid telling people their logic is bad when yours is worse, like it was in your last post.
Well said... I wish I had mod points.
I mean, there are those who actually care about the human rights situation in China, and there are those who just raise the issue to smite you. Among the former group, there are a number of misinformed people whose good intentions turn awry, and needless to say the latter group of people are jerks.
If I didn't believe strongly in free speech I'd too agree that some of these people should be muted for sake of my peace of mind.
Don't quote me on this.
If they don't know what uncensored looks like, the poll is bogus. "Do you like this thing you have and use regularly, or this other thing you don't have and know nothing about?"
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
No, they CLAIM that's how many people they have in jail, and when it's convenient, people like you believe them.
Yet strangely, when they CLAIM they don't engage in human rights abuses, your response is...what?
It better be "I believe that too" or your point just went right out the window.
When you're talking about a country of 1.3 billion people, remember that 15% disagreeing means you've got 195 million people who are unhappy with the situation.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
just for your information:
the people taken to gitmo have been brought there from a non-us locale, which probably outlaws interrogation methods like the ones practiced, are mostly of nationalities which normally do not extradite people to torture and are under no US law i know of guilty of any crime punishable by torture.
it just took the former colony 200 years to return to cutting slaves to pieces. f**k that kind of freedom, it`s freedom bought with terrorism, no better that what they claim to fight.
I am very sad to see this happen under nato/united nations oversight, since it essentially proves them that we lie when we say freedom and good western manners. that behaviour is no better than afghan muchoheddin cutting of bodyparts from prisoners of (whatever you may call it this week).
gitmo = ausschwirtz, vladivostok, pnom penh in my eyes.
sorry, but that is so very yesterday.
I find it interesting that you ascribe that to a philosophical difference, when the citizens are never given a legitimate alternative.
How much of a philosophical difference is it when you have two choices, agree or die?
I'm not talking bungling or neglect, I'm talking decisions that were made to deliberately change the country in a way that made this disaster more serious.
Not really, but I can legitimately claim the scope of this disaster is a direct result of Chinese domestic policy.
The other 15% doesn't like the government censoring dupes on slashdot, so they should be in jail.
85% of Chinese Citizens Like Internet Censorship
When asked at gunpoint if they agree that Internet Censorship is a good thing for China 85% of people agreed.
In other news.. During a Internet related survey 15% of the people surveyed were terrorists involved in a plot to undermine the governments authority and its ability to protect its citizens from disinformation.
Who needs WiFi when we can have Packet Over Sheep! http://datacomm.org/PoS-InternetDraft.txt
As a Chinese I have to say This is bullshit 0% of Chinese Internet Users trust CNNIC http://www.baidu.com/baidu?word=CNNIC+%C1%F7%C3%A5 CNNIC = Malware in CHina.
I agree, taking offense against an article that is accurate is a problem, no matter what stupid contrived reasons your fabricate.
You'll notice that not only was my response tactless, it was TRUE. I hope you take something from this little demonstration about what is valued over what.
Please stop posting rational and well-reasoned posts. You're interfering with our regular scheduled flamewar.
Tyranny of the majority.
None of those things are necessary for your first point to be possible.
So when you say this
You are both wrong and an idiot.
At least China asks, the US censors without asking. After all, censorship is becoming America's favorite past-time. The US gov't (and their corporate friends), already detain protestors, ban books like "America Deceived" America Deceived (book) from Amazon and shuts down Ron Paul. The internet is next.
that weren't edited or removed by the party?
...Saddam Insane received 99.8% of the vote in Iraq.
No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood.
I bet you'd get a similarly high level of agreement - if not much higher. You just have to frame the question correctly.
"Do you support the availability of child porn on the internet?" should do the trick. Voila - 100% of americans like internet censorship!
Easy, isn't it.
Your ignorance is no measure of anything but your ignorance.
http://truthlaidbear.com/TrafficRanking.php
1) Gizmodo, the Gadget Guide 1804776 visits/day (72)
2) MSFTextrememakeover 1646627 visits/day (60551)
3) Daily Kos: State of the Nation 1126007 visits/day (1)
100% of americans like corporate internet censorship because they think it's only censorship when the government is behind it.
http://www.bek-transplant.com/joomla/index.php
I guess we're all supposed to be outraged about this, but, honestly, I'm not surprised. The idea that there must be liberty is, as far as I know, only generally accepted in the USA, and even there, concerns about the children or the terrorists usually quickly overrides any ideals of liberty.
Total liberty simply isn't very important to most people.
Happiness is, and comfort, but you can have those without liberty.
In fact, comfort and happiness might be increased if the government, or another organization, steps in to ensure that you and your children won't bump into nastiness on the Internet quite as often.
Where I live, in the Netherlands, there's been a survey (I think it was before the latest elections) that showed that the number one thing people wanted the government to do was place more cameras. Not even less crime on the streets or anything that one might consider good, just more cameras. They wanted the government to spy on people more.
Knowing some people from China, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the result of the survey were close to accurate. By and large, the things that American's abhor about China are considered Good Things by people there. And they aren't alone: many people ouside China also want the government to protect them against themselves.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
It's the largest progressive blog on the internet.
Progressives, you know, the ones the Republicans hate, and call Liberals. So, it's not a "random site popular with the blogosphere", it's the LARGEST BLOG OF THE OPPONENT'S OF THE VERY PEOPLE YOU CLAIM GO AFTER THEIR OPPONENTS. By YOUR logic, they should be VERY scared.
Feeling stupid yet? You should be.
Oddly enough, everyone in a POW camp in the USA during WW2 was also an innocent man according to our laws. Even the Germans.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
...they just say that because they fear that they will go to jail otherwise.
Here's what the average feedback looked like: I think government censorship is [CENSORED] not [CENSORED] bad. People should be allowed to [CENSORED] be edited by the government. The Chinese goverment has impeded [CENSORED] nothing.
What I want to know is how many of the respondents had a bayonet stuck up their ass as they were filling out the questionnaire.
Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
This is the thing people don't get about freedom. It doesn't matter if everyone in the country save for one person favored censorship, censorship still infringes on the freedom of that one person. This is why I worry so much when I see people equate deomcracy with freedom. Freedom has nothing what so ever to do with democracy.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that Bob could prevent his dog from pissing on Jim's shoes.
You are correct that I did not make a formal logical proof. A complete formal proof would require that I first define what conditions need to be met in order for the dog to be out of control. I would need to define the relationship between Bob and Jim so that we can know whether or not Bob actually wanted the dog to piss on Jim's shoes.
But, I think you're being overly critical. I was responding to a post where they made the common mistake of saying that if A is not as bad as B then A cannot possibly be called bad because B is so much more bad.
Cow Cube
An internet survey that is controlled by the government in a country that might just put you in jail unless you answer they way the government wants. All this means that 15% dare to answer otherwise which seems rather high. Surprised it's not 99%. Totally meaningless statistics are fun!
A time will come when westerners will learn to understand that : - theirs is NOT the only way in life. There might be societies in which the people deem fit to trade in individual liberties for greater benefits to society and faster growth. - not to force a kind of governance and economy which they have developed and think is suitable for all people of all cultures. Live and let live.
Quote: Speech that is 'likely to incite imminent unlawful action' is the current Supreme Court standard.
That may be true as far as it goes, but it is misleading. The kind of "imminent unlawful action" that they refer to is riot, or some other unlawful action that endangers the public... not just something that might piss off an individual. Those are two very different things.
One oft-cited example of speech that might fall under this rule is yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. That could likely put people in danger of life or limb. Deliberately "inciting riot" is another example. None of these things are even remotely like a T-shirt bearing offensive words.
Parent's comment is correct about economic growth.
China can sustain a 10% annual growth rate because it is modernizing its economy. Remember, just 50 years ago most of the steel in China was made by peasantry in backyard furnaces. It's relatively easy to develop your country into a modern economy when you have plenty of examples to follow (e.g., Western Europe, the U.S., Japan, Korea). Heck, Korea brought itself back from a backwater agrarian economy to a full-fledged modern knowledge-based one in just under 50 years and it didn't have near the natural resources China has.
Economic growth always historically slows for developed nations because they no longer have any templates to follow. The organic or natural economic growth that came from playing catch-up is no longer there and they are now forced to innovate and invent to grow rather than just copy. Look at the post war growth patterns of Japan and Germany for an example.
The sun beams down on a brand new day, No more welfare tax to pay, Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light...
The subject of how to get the poll result you want is brilliantly shown by Yes Primeminister see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yhN1IDLQjo [youtube.com]
Some people use VPN to bypass Internet restrictions
Anonymous Surfing
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Chinese people will very rarely say anything bad about the government for fear of consequences so these stats make sense.
Take my girlfriend for example (we live in Beijing) she's far more open to outside influences than most Chinese. Was talking to her about starting a blog to protest the new Chinese visa regulations for foreigners. Her response...please don't because the Chinese government will punish me if they find out I live with someone who does this. Like most people in any country she does not like to hear bad things about the Chinese government. Part of it is the old Confusion ideology and ancestor worship...what is done by those above must be respected.
She is educated but still has no idea of what censorship is and what is censored in China. Believe me I have tried and showed her info about the 3T's, human rights, etc... but her response is that western media is publishing this and they are not to be trusted as much as the Chinese press. Truth is most Chinese do not understand what censorship is and will not learn about it from foreigners or foreign media. China is booming and the people in cities with influence are happy, they do not want change.
From a westerners point of view it would be nice to find a happy medium between Chinese media and western media. Every time I go back to Canada the news is full of gloom and doom. It may be free media but I find it kind of depressing. Meanwhile in China it's an absolute joke and everything is 'good'. Was reading on the main page of a newspaper the other day about an old man who helped society by trying for years to stop a tree from falling over. Every day he would go out and try and push the tree straight...ridiculous stuff. The earthquake would be on 24 hours a day if it happened in the US. Meanwhile I'm working in front of the TV and find it hard to find any news about the earthquake. Chinese media is filled with feel good stories. Why can't there be a middle ground?
New View Media - Custom Website Design
If the survey question were asked on the internet, many citizens who bother to answer would agree with government control, since their answer would be observed by the government. I'd like to see the results of this survey taken under guarantee of anonymity.
Nor is it logical for Jim to call Bob's dog out of control. The denotation of "out of control" does indeed mean that Bob isn't controlling the dog but that doesn't take into account the connotations of the expression in relation to dogs. The connotations of the expression are that the dog is violent. Pissing on his shoes isn't a violent act, its merely a sign that the dog sees Jim as a a part of his territory. Also your logic fails to the account for the scenario that Bob has trained the dog to do that to Jim, thus the dog is perfectly within Bobs control.
Who owns the consulting company that did the research? Who was paying them? Did either party have an incentive to make up data? The next question is: does the data matter even if it is correct? 99% of North Koreans think their leader is a god, that doesn't make them right. Even if everyone in the world thinks someone is wrong, it doesn't make it right to kill them for thinking a certain way or saying something that doesn't harm anyone else.
Rather than trying to reply to the usual howls of derision and disbelief, I'll try to simply cut through it all and point out a couple of well known facts about Chinese culture.
:-) The Chinese, on the other hand, have a long (~5000 years), unbroken tradition according to which the ruler is a representative of Heaven. The emperor was the father of the people, at least as long as he had the mandate of heaven; the father, ideally, rules his children unselfishly and caringly, and that is what the Chinese expect from their government. They may not always like what daddy says, but they know in their heart that he is right. It is their way, and it works for them.
First off, there is "the mandate of heaven". The Chinese background is not Christian; we in the West build much of our world view on Christian tradition, whether we are religious or not, and to Americans, I believe, an important part of that is idea of persecution from the government. America was to a large extent founded by people who fled oppression, so to most Americans the rulers are not people you would instinctively trust. I hope I'm making sense here
Then, of course, there is the thing about interference - we in the West aren't willing to let others tell us what to do, so why should the Chinese be any different? They are very proud of their traditions, their culture and their recent achievements, and they feel that this is due, not least to their government. So obviously the Chinese government is seen as doing the right thing and taking good care of their people. They want more of that, and who can blame them, really?
Which leads to my final point: The Chinese know their own situation better than any outsider - I would think this is obvious. They live there every day of the week, we don't. If we want to argue that we know better, we have to come up with some bloody hard evidence unless we want to simply sound like smug and overbearing idiots. So, in this light, shouldn't we in the West at least try to contemplate the idea that we are wrong in our opinions about the Chinese system? That we, for example, may be the victims of dishonest reporting and news coloured by political agendas? Just a thought.
Where, in the end, ( spoilers follow ) the protagonist abandons his quest to kill the warlord who killed his family and sacrifices himself when he recognizes that this particular warlord is the only one who is powerful enough to beat the other warlords and unite china, thereby providing stability and peace. He is then a "Hero".
Then the very first thing you type is
"I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume..."
Why would I care about anything you have to say after that?
"But, I think you're being overly critical."
I couldn't care less as Long as I'm accurate, which I am, irrefutably. And honestly, if you attack someone's logic with even shittier logic like you did, you deserve criticism.
And yes, it looks like some operations of the CIA would qualify.
-molo
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
We'll agree to disagree then. You make a valid point about my assumptions, but you seem more interested in attacking me with your childish "even shittier logic" comment than you are in having a philosophical discussion.
You are good at rhetorical flourishes, but you seem to have no intention of approaching the original topic discussion.
Feel free to make the last comment if it makes you feel better. I promise not to respond.
Cow Cube
Typically, children don't curse, so calling that "childish", which in itself is a childish attack, demonstrates exactly what I meant about your shitty logic.
You mean you can't respond, everything I've said is true, and you have no refutation. Your logic did suck, your are a hypocrite, and there is nothing you an say to prove otherwise.
We're talking about a country tha censors a lot more than just the Internet. Reports of propoganda officials following ALL foriegn media reprentitives in China as well as soldiers following people known to disagree with government policy are constant. How do you get reliable information on public opinion in a country where if you disagree with the government, you are gaged by threats, inprisonment or even death. (Could this be why China is the number one place to get spare human parts? Hmmm..have to think on that one). To get a small understanding of this check out the stuff done in the excellent film, "The Lives of Others". The Chinese Communist Party recruit people at all levels as spies and act quickly when people are discovered who object to Party policy. (Remember this is the country who wrote "The Art of War" which has a large chapter on spies and counter spies) Its impossible to do an accurate poll under such conditions because it will ALWAYS favor the Communist Party. Garbage in garbage out.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
They're a bunch of backwards hicks here on the mainland. They're too ignorant to know anything but government control. Asking them if they like it is like asking a westerner if they like blue sky or oxygen. The funny thing is that the same stupid bumpkins are doing the censoring, so while I can't get directly to Amnesty Int'l, I can get directly to Slashdot. Sites like Anonymouse take care of the rest. The censors are just annoying in their inconsistency. Hmmm, it is kind of telling that they block sites dealing with corruption here...