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So basically, both our arguments are valid. Your reply here doesn't actually conflict at all with what I was saying. And I agree. But aside from somehow extracting the ROMs from your cartridges, there are other options that aren't illegal.

All the backwards compatibility with NES, SNES, N64, etc. etc. A brilliant move, and one propounded by myself and Frank Leibly of http://www.starroms.com/ years ago.

http://www.bedoper.com/404company/vcickie.htm
http://www.bedoper.com/bedoper/2004/twentieth.htm

Sandwich Boy Sues Nintendo

An insanely distraught Sandwich Boy today issued a flurry of fake lawsuits directed at video game giant Nintendo. At issue is software derived from this hardware. According to Mr. Sandwich, he has spent the past four months working furiously on a business plan involving the Vickie concept reborn as a software model. This software was just patented by Nintendo earlier this week.

"It's a coincidence, right? It has to be a coincidence. I know Jeffy Minter wouldn't do that to me. And there is no such thing as a shady VC firm, is there? It must be a coincidence. Regardless, I WANT MARIO DEAD! Luigi? - DEAD! Yoshi? - DEAD! I want Donkey Kong to carry out the hit."

As evidence, Mr. Sandwich offered this executive summary, conceived and developed three months ago. It is hoped that this lawsuit will bring attention to the fact that he is consistently ahead of the curve in the hardware and software development field, despite having no readily apparent skills or training.

Said Mr. Sandwich: "When my pen-sized digital slideshow generator hits the market next year, I am going to go ape spit if Newtek doesn't give me credit for the concept."

Mr. Foley, What part of you trademarking someone elses work is rumor? What part is dribble? Why are you having ebay close down your competitors auctions when they are using legal roms? WHY are you trying to trademark something that is not yours? It's easy to see you are trying to use this as a "commercial" for your so-called business model. The truth of the matter is that ROMS are available legally for prices much cheaper than you would like to charge. It isn't anyones fault but yours that your "Ultracade" and "Arcade Legends" machines aren't worth stink. IMO, you don't have the business sense to manage something like this properly, as evidenced by your recent actions. I will not conduct any business with you or one of your "business models" ever. The major publishers should be looking at http://www.starroms.com/ That is a reputable company. Your's is not. You, my friend, are an embarrassment to the emulation community. You need to settle down and realize you've made some poor decisions. Word about your ethics is spreading. You are a child that is crying about your history of failing business models. You didn't make money in the commercial market so you spread to the home market. You're not making money there either, so now you want to try and make money of ROMS. You just don't have the business sense it takes to work in this industry anymore. In summary, I encourage everyone to go to starroms (no affiliation) and avoid "Arcade Legends", "Ultracade", and those Universal Video Converters of Mr. Foleys at Happs site. Please look before you buy and make sure there is no affiliation to this guy. Spread the word of his actions. - Cooter JUST SAY NO TO ultracade & arcade legends.

Arcade game ROMs can be obtained legally:

Star ROMs
Our classic arcade ROM database contains over 25 games at prices as low as $2 per title!

StarROMs was established to provide an inexpensive and legal source for classic video games. These are the original games exactly as you played them in the arcade. Now you can legally download the ROM and play the game at home, as often as you like, with your favorite emulator!

I don't know anything about Arcade game ROMs. I found this after Googling for about 5 seconds. I'm sure there are many more ways of getting ROMs legally. So this invalidates UltraCade's argument in that forum post. I wish parent had posted the link to the forum thread as, I'm sure, there would have been many replies to UltraCade's post, stating my point.

Star ROMS.

$2 a pop (usually) but they only have 25 games right now. It's a start.

FYI: The site where you can legally purchase roms is http://www.starroms.com/

Not much there, but its about you're only bet for legit emulation on a computer.

Hmm.. You mean like this type of stuff?

Sorry, it's being done, and has been for years. Next idea.

It has been done, at least for old Atari roms, it's called StarRoms.

StarROMs is a good start. 51 games at an average cost of $2.15 each if you buy them all is more than reasonable. If StarROMs proves commercially successful, you can reasonably hope that other ROMs from other vendors will become commercially available as well. Trashing StarROMs because of their limited selection is like slamming a baby learning to crawl because they aren't walking and running yet. Give it some time and see what happens. I know they are looking to expand their offerings but they have an uphill battle convincing copyright owners to let them. Note that StarROMs isn't out to combat piracy. They're out to make money. That they convinced Atari that they could do so while combating piracy is what I hope other vendors take note of. If it takes off then it's likely that competitive forces will come into play similarly to what's happening in the MP3/digital-format-of-your-choice music industry today. Perhaps a competitor will open up shop with the pricing scheme you envision and the selection you want. So I wouldn't call StarROMs a joke by any means -- I'd call it a good first step. I personally hope they make a killing so they can grow like crazy and offer more consumer choices... --- saint Build Your Own Arcade Controls FAQ http://www.arcadecontrols.com/ Project Arcade http://www.projectarcade.com/

StarROMs
alt.binaries.emulators.* Usenet groups
eMule

I'm sure there are many more.

There definately seems to be a retro-gaming kick going on right now in the industry. I'm all for it considering how much I use my homemade MAME cabinet, but there is one thing that I don't get at all. Companies like this and Nintendo, Atari, Namco, etc. have all these old titles that they keep releasing on controler packages or collections for Playstation or whatever, but yet they refuse to give people a legal way to use roms to play the games (with the exception of Atari of course who struck a deal with StarRoms). This kind of retro gaming would be a lot more popular if they gave people more choice about it. Imagine if instead of selling a handheld controler with 20 set games in it, instead they have thier whole collection online you bought the thing online (or activated it online) and got to choose 20 of the games that you actually like to be able to play on the unit. I wouldn't even care if they DRM'ed the files like iTunes does with purchased music, just give me a cross-platform app that I can use to flash the games onto the handheld unit. If I had choice about it and could do it without breaking the law, I would be all over it. The problem with those units, and with StarRoms is that 99% of the games are games that I don't like. I would be willing to pay for roms if they gave me ones that I like.

The Google answer to the obvious question is http://www.starroms.com/

you show me someplace I can go and pay to play all of those games and I'll be there

Try:
StarROMs

*Very* limited selection of legal ROMs for purchase - pretty much only about 50 Atari ROMs at the moment, but I'm sure the catalogue will grow, given enough support.

Been right here. The company is StarROMs. They have have quite a few Atari ROMs, but none from Midway. The point still stands - not only is this collection a bargain at $20, it's the only legal way to play these games on your PS2.

Before people start blubbering about DRM and how this model is restrictive, please keep this in mind: Before this, there was NO LEAGAL WAY TO PURCHASE these games from them. I know that the subscription model doesn't really let you purchase them but ANY move at all to make availble old game ROMS that are other wise dying as old cartriges/cabinets stop working needs to be applauded and supported. Don't forget about StarRoms too. The way I see it, the first step is to let the game companies sell the ROMS in whatever protected and limited fashon they are comfortable with, and then after they see a consumer demand for it, market forces would start letting competitive companies offer better EULAs.

I don't know where to get all roms, but you can get some from http://www.starroms.com.

Yes, any price is apparently too much for some people, and they'll just go on downloading archives of 2000 arcade game ROMs.

Just a quick aside: 2000 games? How can anyone possibly justify downloading the ROMs to 2000 games? We're way out of the realm of casual piracy at that point. That's three new games a day for nearly two freaking years!

It only takes about two seconds to think of the logical reasons behind keeping a collection of 2000 games:
1. Convenience. If you play a lot of MAME games and talk to a lot of other people that enjoy emulated games, someone is eventually going to recommend a game that you don't have. If you don't have to worry about hard drive space or bandwidth, then why not just get the game NOW instead of worrying about Mame.dk or MameFans being down THEN?
2. Redistribution. If someone doesn't have 2000 games and wants to play a certain one, but Mame.dk, MameFans, etc. are down, then you can give it to them. And even if those sites ARE up, you can save them some bandwidth by downloading the entire collection and the trading it out in bits and pieces (or the whole damn thing) instead of both yourself and your friends regularly downloading from them whenever you want a new game. One of the buffers that keeps these sites from going down is the people that downloaded from them proceeding to redistribute the ROMs in other venues, such as AIM and IRC.

This really does change the whole situation for illegal ROM trafficking. Before downloaders were hurting the original copyright owners, but the games were not being sold on the market actively, except through the used hardware market, so many felt it a victimless crime. Now that isn't such a comfortable position, since someone somewhere is making money off selling licenses to own the electronic form of some ROMs.

No, the situation hasn't changed at all. StarROMs is offering a handful of games that aren't even the most popular emulated games out there right now. For the thousands that are playing The King of Fighters '98, Street Fighter Alpha 3, Marvel vs Capcom, or the thousands of less popular arcade ROMS out right now, the situation hasn't changed: the games aren't being sold legally, in stores or otherwise. And for many arcade games, the ports that are being sold in stores right now aren't really worth buying. I love Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo on the GBA, but it's nowhere near as good as the arcade ROM simply because the arcade ROM hasn't crashed on me once, let alone the dozen times that the GBA cart has. So whether a neutered, buggy version of the original title even counts is questionable at best.

This changes the whole situation for illegally trading SOME ATARI ROMs. Not "the whole situation for illegal ROM trafficking".

Those people running StarROMs are getting hurt when you download Asteroids illegally. Furthermore, the dissemination of ROMs over the past years has diminished the potential market for StarROMs. And since Atari gets some money back from the licensing of the ROMs that StarROMs sells, they're losing out on potential revenue here as well. Downloading those ZIP files is no longer as innocent as it seemed.

The only reason that there is an emulator for those games, let alone a market for them and a decade of free publicity from gaming magazine articles about emulators, is "the dissemination of ROMs over the past years". And obviously StarROMs disagrees with you, because this is their opinion from their site:

"StarROMs believes that emulators play an important role in the preservation of classic video games. A portion of StarROMs annual profits will be donated to projects that help support the legal emulation of classic video games."

I don't see legal ROMs as a bad thing and I would certainly consider them if they offered a better product than the pirated stuff by giving me faster downloads and a product that I know is 100% authentic and not a dump of some bootleg cart,

Here's an interesting if vague quote from the StarROMs website:

"StarROMs believes that emulators play an important role in the preservation of classic video games. A portion of StarROMs annual profits will be donated to projects that help support the legal emulation of classic video games." Here's the link.

So Atari won't be compensating MAME anytime soon, but ROM redistributors just might.

In much of the deep southeast, tapwater has a high mineral content that gives it a faint sulfurous odor. Throughout the midwest and southwest, the water is very hard and has a definite earthy flavor. The tapwater in these places is certainly very high quality due to public health standards. But it is water that stinks and tastes like dirt even when run through a cheap faucet filter. For these people, bottled water is definitely higher quality in a definitely perceptible manner.

Regarding pay-to-download, there could very well be a quality difference as well. If you're P2P-ing it, you don't know the source of the MP3. It could have been ripped at a low bitrate or with a crappy ripper. Hopefully these pay-to-download services will offer consistent high-quality encoding. I hate that wavering sound you get in the high frequencies in low-quality MP3s. I subscribed to EMusic for a couple months, downloaded a few tracks, and then quit because their MP3s were low bitrate and sounded like it.

And also, I recently purchased several old arcade game roms from StarRoms after reading a Slashdot article that mentioned it. I did this even though I knew where I could get them for free, despite the fact that sites distributing these ROM images are routinely shut down by C&Ds from IP owners. I did this because it is comforting to legally own something, and I also did it to make a statement:

Today's digital technology allows for archival and on-demand transmittal of copies every single piece of intellectual property ever created. There is no excuse for anybody to not sell or give away their IP over the internet. Don't shut down video arcade game ROM sites and then NOT sell the ROM images you are "protecting". Record labels, don't go sueing people for file swapping until your entire catalogs are available for purchase online. If you sell it, people WILL buy.

Offer discounts to the people who are interested in buying several games rather than one or two. That comes out to $134 for the whole set.

Ummmm... The FAQ you just quoted was from ConsoleClassix.com.

The slashdot article is about StarRoms.com. They are two totally different things. This article has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH CONSOLECLASSIX.

Odd that their website says as low as $2. Their press release [PDF] dated today (October 1st, 2003) says:

With the support of Atari, StarROMs is trying to do for classic video games what Apple's I-Tunes is doing for on-line music. StarROMs prices range from 99 cents to $6 per video game title.

Here's a sample of the software license. "This License allows you to use the Software on a single personal computer for non-commercial entertainment purposes only..."

I'll give you a good reason that at least some people will want to pay for them:

The conditions of use for the site (http://www.starroms.com/about/condofuse.php) make no indication of any limits on how you use the games. The Roms themselves may contain licenses, but I haven't bought one to find out.

If you buy the rom, chances are you can legally set it up for for-profit play... IE, set up a MAME console in your place of business and charge people 25cents per credit.