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Mod grandparent up ... I also purchased a System76 laptop 8 months ago or so and absolutely love it. It has the full numeric keypad and has real Fn keys. My only complaint would be the touch pad ... I hate all touch pads.

While my laptop came pre-installed with Ubuntu, I eventually migrated to Fedora 16. Everything worked on the default installation; no special drivers were required. I hope to not buy another laptop for another 5 or 6 years, but when I do, I'll be looking at System76 first.

Disclaimer: I do not work for, nor own stock in System76. I'm just a very happy customer.

https://www.system76.com/laptops/ both those have centered trackpads. The x220 (which I have) runs archlinux fine (save for having to add 1 line to rc.local.shutdown if you use laptop-mode-tools), but the x220 does have a windows tax.

I first heard of Linux in 1994 and the local computer store had slackware on floppies.

It is amazing to hear that your servers are that old. You should put up a paypal link. With the donations you get, you should be able to pick up a few of these.

I think Linux could be more successful if computer vendors bundled complete Linux solutions w/ their systems. Something like say a laptop or netbook preloaded w/ Linux, along w/ things like printer, wi-fi and so on, working right out of the box.

Take a look at System 76 they ship a complete system with Linux installed. All the drivers (including sound) are already configured and working. I have two of their systems at home and have been really pleased. I tend to agree that for the average user a Linux desktop may never be suitable but, If you just need a browser or are a developer looking for a light weight operating system to use then it is a good buy.

As long as the courts keep them from forcing you to pay the MS tax on a new system that you don't even want Windows on I'm fine with them being dominant.

In the past year, I haven't seen a single store in Fort Wayne, Indiana, selling computers with GNU/Linux that I can walk up to and try. All I see are Windows and Mac OS X. There used to be a couple GNU/Linux netbooks, but the only Linux computers one can find in stores anymore are Android tablets, and even those are licensed by Microsoft. Does System76 even have a showroom?

Really?

http://www.system76.com/

http://www.ohava.com/

https://www.thinkpenguin.com/

http://www.blackstonesystems.net/

Yup it's dire... Nobody at all is selling desktops or laptops with linux preinstalled.

Did you even look?

Same thing with popular proprietary systems too like OSX and Android. People don't seem to have a problem with the concept of just buying hardware that these operating systems are intended for so why not do that for Linux without having to make an issue out of it? And, yes, I know Android is Linux.

This is 100%. If you buy a PC and try running OS/X on it you will have a hell of a time. On the other hand I have bought HP laptops with pre-installed Linux and they work great. If there's one thing Linux advocates have to learn it's to tell everybody that they won't have a good experience if they don't buy dedicated hardware. Being able to work on strange/old hardware should be seen as an additional feature for experts rather than a good way of getting Linux about. Even if it does work, the experience is always going to be worse for Linux on five year old hardware than Windows on the newest hardware. I've heard good experiences with System 76 for Ubuntu. Are there any equivalents for Mint, for example?

Have you looked into some of the Linux computer suppliers? eg, Zareason, System 76, LinuxCertified, and EmperorLinux

If I'm not mistaken, some people have been able to get the Windows license fee dropped from their purchase. I don't know how much trouble it is to do that though.

Maybe someone else can comment on that.

I feel your pain (I recently tried buying a Lenovo without Windows), but you can get Linux laptops: http://www.system76.com/. They're actually quite competitive.

Because for most people, Windows does just work. (Hate to burst your bubble.) I know where you're coming from, but for a lot of people, Linux just doesn't work. It's a lot better than it used to be, but if that Wifi adapter isn't recognized, they have no idea where to go from there.

Of course the operating system that is pre-installed on a PC has a huge advantage because the OEM has made sure all of the included hardware works with it. If you buy from one of the few vendors that supports an operating system other than Windows, the other operating system will enjoy the same advantage. For example, I'm using a MacBookPro. All of the hardware works well with OSX, but not all of it works with Linux because Apple's firmware doesn't set up the hardware completely correctly in PC BIOS mode and some of the Linux drivers are missing for the new devices (I'm looking at you Broadcom). Apple does provide some drivers for Windows, but not all of the hardware is fully functional, including the Intel GPU. When I buy a laptop from one of the Linux-supporting vendors like zareason or System76 all of the hardware will work fine with Linux. The reason far more people have trouble getting hardware to work with Linux than Windows is simply that they've bought PCs intended to run Windows and ones designed to run Linux are rare.

For most people, Windows just works until it doesn't. Quite often, that's because they were careless and got malware. I've seen and had to clean up many such machines. Very little of that malware relies on modifying bootloaders or Windows kernel, so UEFI secure boot won't do a lick of good against it. No machine running a desktop operating system can seriously be called an appliance like a fridge or car, least of all Windows. Phones and tablets can be appliances as long as no third-party apps are installed, but there's only so much complexity a machine can have before it ceases to be an appliance.

"I'm an OS X user looking to switch to a Linux laptop. I like the Unix/BSD aspect of OS X. Simple things like when I close the lid the laptop goes to sleep, the sound card works out of the box, long battery life, minimum cooling fan noise, and a comprehensive but relatively straightforward backup system and 'AppleCare' package are important to me. What all-inclusive model of laptop and distro would you recommend?"

Let's see...

Took me 10 seconds on Google. They offer every single thing he mentioned in the summary as a turnkey solution. Try again, stupid.

Nice specs but a bit heavy and I don't like those keyboards, with out of axis spacebar and touchpad to accommodate a number pad (only because those reduced-height screens are so wide and they have to fill up the space) http://www.system76.com/product_images/gazelle-aec32d375de9c04.png If it were detached from the screen I would shift it to the right and that's telling.

I know, it's not just them and I won't find a laptop larger that 13" with a sane keyboard.

• Core i7-2960XM Extreme (8MB L3 Cache, 2.70GHz)
• 1920 x 1080 or higher screen resolution
• 15.9" or smaller
• Manufacturer openly supports booting Linux

You may say I'm not the typical user, but I'm typing this on a Macbook Pro. I'm a power user and I do indeed need the 2960XM Extreme 2.7GHz. I also have to have the portability of a 15" and be able to develop software and engineering solutions in remote locations. So yes, I'm not the typical user. But I am a typical professional, and I have found Macs to be the best tool for the job - in the past.

About that manufacturer support one: since this is my primary work laptop, I'll only be buying one that I can send in for warranty service and overwrite the OS with Linux.

The results:
Dell: They have a paltry list of "no OS" options. Most of their laptops top out at a Core i7 2.50 GHz. Fail.
Apple: They don't support any other OS's. I'll compromise - Mac OS is based on BSD. But they also top out at a Core i7 2.50 GHz, and the screen is only 1680 x 1050. Oh, and to get even just those two specs: $2,549! Fail!
Lenovo: has a No OS special offer but also tops out at a Core i7 2.50 GHz.
System 76: Right here.

Not to be a nitpicker, but that site looks like a cheesy rip-off of Apple... Why do companies insist on doing this? Be original. Personally, I like the Asus laptops with a Costco return policy. 2 years only, but no hassle.

Look at this picture, particularly the bezel right below the screen, reflecting the keyboard... what is with all that warping????
http://www.system76.com/product_images/serval-8f6a631ac4a249b.png

I am really thinking the submitters should try out Emperor Linux. ZaReason might also be a good place to look, or possibly System76.

Check out System76 http://www.system76.com/laptops/ and ZaReason http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/. They sell laptops that come pre-installed with Ubuntu. I've never used one so can't comment on their quality but at least you are guaranteed to have all the hardware working out of the box.

I have the Serval laptop from System76. They vet the hardware and guarantee that everything works with Ubuntu (Ubuntu comes pre-installed and fully loaded with drivers). Awesome computer. The biggest issue is dual monitor support -- but this is an Ubuntu thing, not System76. Oh, and my System76 sticker came off the cover from sliding in and out of my backpack :(

Yeah, it would be good to get it from a supplier who has actually heard of Linux. So System 76, or maybe Emperor Linux or The Linux Laptop or Linux-Certified or ZaReason etc.

I fought to get linux on a samsung laptop so a better option would be: System 76

I've never actually bought from them, but it sounds like you'd be an ideal customer of http://system76.com/ - they provide pre-built Ubuntu Linux computers, including laptops, with good specs. Since they're building the PC and installing the OS, they can test the compatibility of everything. This is a lot better of an experience than you're likely to get with an off-the-shelf laptop + a downloaded Linux ISO.

System76 also provides support, although I have no idea how it compares with AppleCare... but most Linux computers are home-built (or at least home-installed) and any support you can get for them will assume you're using Windows. Linux software support is typically user forums, although commercial distros typically have support staff.

The quality of the software (for things like backup) is something I can't help you with - every distro is different in what it includes, most software can be installed on any distro, and often Linux software isn't so much a cohesive package as it's a set of tools for any task. Running rsync using a cron job is a pretty respectable way to do backup.

I'm not personally a fan of Ubuntu, but it's the most popular home distro, and if you're coming from OS X it should be a relatively easy adjustment. Besides, you can always install a different distro afterward. Unlike on a Mac, the OS is in no way tied to the hardware - most Linux distros can be downloaded for free and installed on any PC (including, incidentally, a Mac).

System76 and ZaReason are both good dedicated Linux laptop companies. Personally, I have a Dell n-series laptop .

http://www.system76.com/ http://www.zareason.com/ Nope.

ZaReason and System76 sell both laptop and desktop computers with Linux pre-installed. About a year ago, I bought a ZaReason computer and have been quite happy with it. Mine is a desktop computer.

When buying my ZaReason computer, I got to choose between Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, Debian, Linux Mint, Fedora, or no operating system.

I am not sure if those are available in Europe Europe or not. I live here in the U.S.

• ZaReason
• System76

Some devices just cannot be bought without MS Windows installed on them. I could not source a new laptop without it, for instance.

Really? I don't know that you tried very hard.

I've been thinking for a while that Canonical should distribute their own line of hardware, perhaps 3 models of laptop at various levels of power and price, similar to the Apple model, but cheaper, and open. This would get around some of the problems people run into with unusual, unsupported wireless and video cards. If done right, it could probably pull off marketing it as a bit of an upscale laptop.

You mean like System76? I guess it's not run by Canonical, but they are Ubuntu partners.

I've been thinking for a while that Canonical should distribute their own line of hardware, perhaps 3 models of laptop at various levels of power and price, similar to the Apple model, but cheaper, and open. This would get around some of the problems people run into with unusual, unsupported wireless and video cards. If done right, it could probably pull off marketing it as a bit of an upscale laptop.

You mean like System76? I guess it's not run by Canonical, but they are Ubuntu partners.

http://www.system76.com/

It is also possible to buy a computer with Linux pre-installed, instead of having to remove Windows. ZaReason and System 76 both offer PCs with Linux pre-installed. If I am not mistaken, Linux is the only choice that either company offers on any of their computers.

In addition to not having to pay Microsoft for an OS that is not wanted, a Linux user could be confident that all of the hardware is totally Linux compatible. That would be good to know, even if a fresh clean install a different version of Linux was later done.

http://zareason.com/
http://www.system76.com/

It's pretty simple. Hardware vendors make sure their hardware works with Windows. Most hardware vendors don't care whether it's easy for people to make their consumer hardware work on Linux.

So what do you do? You do exactly what Windows consumers do. You buy your system from a system builder, only one that certifies their systems for Linux, i.e. you pay money for someone to make sure that your flavor of Linux works on your hardware, so that you don't have to do it yourself. These aren't old systems. They are current gen systems.

I don't have any affiliation with any of these vendors but it was easy to find them:
http://www.linuxcertified.com/linux_laptops.html
http://www.system76.com/
http://www.emperorlinux.com/

You could go get a laptop from System76

Have you even read the shipping terms on that site? To you and all other linking to system76: I understand that you're all perfectly happy that there exists a supplier that can offer what you ask for, but one supplier does not a healthy market make. And more to the point:

System76 ships to the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom

Total bull. That was true a decade ago but thanks to the Internet ANYBODY can buy ANY kind of machine, desktop, laptop, netbook, server, and do so without Windows. Not only does Dell offer Ubuntu machines now but there are plenty of specialty retailers like System 76 that are more than happy to have your business.

Yes, but you are limited to specific models that are offered in a "Linux" variety. Why can't I find the hardware I want without having to pay for software I don't want? I happen to like Thinkpads, but the models I like don't come without Windows.

To me this "Windows tax" crap smells like trying to eat your cake and have it too. These people want the lower prices that comes with bundling trialware but then want to just go "my bad" and get money back ON TOP of the lower prices they don't qualify for well sorry friend, it shouldn't work that way. Just as you can't buy basic cable and then demand they remove the ads or give you money back for the channels you don't want, so too should you not get the lower price that comes with trialware if you refuse to take the OS the trialware requires.

I bet these that scream "Windows tax!" would STFU if the OEMs said "Well we only pay $15 for Windows in bulk, but that trialware we install nets us $75. So you actually owe us $60 for the difference. Shall we just use your CC that we have on file?"

The issue is controlling where your money is going. With other companies giving the computer manufacturer money it isn't a big deal. With the manufacturer sending my money off to Microsoft that is more of an issue. So what if I am willing to spend a little extra to make sure Microsoft doesn't get any of my money? In fact, if Windows weren't so forced this trialware crap would probably spread to the other options as well so the revenue from that would be close.

Hell even if I did want Windows I would pay extra for them to not install all the garbage and to actually give me an install CD rather than the "recovery disc" BS. If I it weren't for the fact that the first thing I do with a new laptop is install Linux this behavior would make me seriously consider Apple.

Total bull. That was true a decade ago but thanks to the Internet ANYBODY can buy ANY kind of machine, desktop, laptop, netbook, server, and do so without Windows. Not only does Dell offer Ubuntu machines now but there are plenty of specialty retailers like System 76 that are more than happy to have your business.

To me this "Windows tax" crap smells like trying to eat your cake and have it too. These people want the lower prices that comes with bundling trialware but then want to just go "my bad" and get money back ON TOP of the lower prices they don't qualify for well sorry friend, it shouldn't work that way. Just as you can't buy basic cable and then demand they remove the ads or give you money back for the channels you don't want, so too should you not get the lower price that comes with trialware if you refuse to take the OS the trialware requires.

I bet these that scream "Windows tax!" would STFU if the OEMs said "Well we only pay $15 for Windows in bulk, but that trialware we install nets us $75. So you actually owe us $60 for the difference. Shall we just use your CC that we have on file?"

You could go get a laptop from System76. Just priced one out. It would cost me about $900 US for a computer with similar specs to what I recently paid $400 CDN for in an HP Windows 7 Laptop. The only difference is that my screen is not quite as high resolution. But the machine I bought has a much cleaner style and doesn't look like it was designed by a geek. The basic problem is that computers with Linux do not get the advantage of economies of scale. So it ends up costing you more if you want a computer with Linux on it. Personally I think everyone should stop whining and just take advantage of the cheap laptop, format it, and be done. No point in crying because they make you buy a Windows licence. If you are that much against it, you could have just bought the Linux laptop in the first place. It's not like you weren't aware that the computer was going to come with Windows when you bought it.

Here are a couple of places from whom I've bought linux boxes: http://system76.com/ , http://www.zareason.com/ Based on my extremely small sample size, I've found system76 to be a little better in terms of quality, but I've seen lots of positive comments about both of these businesses on the web.

Of course I realize that the existence of alternatives doesn't mean that Microsoft isn't massively exploiting its monopoly power over the market ("monopoly" in the legal sense, which does not require 100% market share). But if nobody bothers to buy from the alternatives, then I can sure as heck guarantee you that the situation will get worse, not better.

Some big retailers such as Fry's, Target, and Walmart have tried selling linux machines. As far as I've been able to tell, none of them have been successful, and I don't think the failure has anything to do with strong-arm tactics by MS. A while back, Fry's used to sell linux machines for $180-250 that were actually pretty decent. I bought several of them (one for my father, one for my daughter, etc.), and they lasted a long time and gave yeoman service. But they stopped selling them, and when I asked one of the salespeople at Fry's he said that they'd had so many returns that it wasn't profitable. Realistically, what was happening was that a lot of people were buying them, wiping linux off the hard disk, and installing a bootlegged copy of windows. Then when the windows install didn't work correctly, they would return the machine. This wasn't subtle at all. The machines came with a custom linux distro (ThizLinux) that nobody in the U.S. had ever heard of and that didn't even have a web page in English. The docs that came with the machines consisted of five pages of instructions on how to install windows, and no info whatsoever on how to use the linux that came preinstalled.
Walmart was selling the gPC for a while. I bought one, and although the hardware was decent, the quality of the software integration stank to high heaven.

What the smaller sellers like system76 and zareason are doing right is to stop trying to invent their own crappy linux distro and just ship their machines with ubuntu, which works. Another thing they're doing right is to market their computers to people who actually want to run linux, as opposed to people who don't know about, don't care about, or don't want linux.

system76 ships to Canada. I heard good things about them online but have no personal experience.

Also This. Starling NetBook -- Dual Core Atom N550 @ 1.50 GHz

http://www.system76.com/

Ya, not windows, but really, for what most people's folks do, web browsing, etc, Ubuntu works fine and you can't beat their "app store" prices...

http://www.system76.com/index.php?cPath=28
http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/

Among many others, I'm sure.

Consider using System76. They sell a broad range of computers and the only OS they use is Ubuntu. I bought a netbook from them and have loved it. Their service before and after the sale is fantastic. Check out their forum at: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=341. Their site is: http://www.system76.com./

A top-tier vendor has a whopping three notebooks (including one home laptop, one netbook and one business laptop) and two desktops (one home, one business)?

Seriously?!

System76 has five notebooks (two netbooks, three laptops) and six desktops (two nettops, four desktops).

ZaReason has seven laptops (one netbook and six notebooks; there is a netbook which isn't currently shown that's sold out and getting refreshed) and eight desktops (one nettop and seven desktops).

Something odd is going on if significantly smaller companies can offer a significantly larger selection.

A top-tier vendor has a whopping three notebooks (including one home laptop, one netbook and one business laptop) and two desktops (one home, one business)?

Seriously?!

System76 has five notebooks (two netbooks, three laptops) and six desktops (two nettops, four desktops).

ZaReason has seven laptops (one netbook and six notebooks; there is a netbook which isn't currently shown that's sold out and getting refreshed) and eight desktops (one nettop and seven desktops).

Something odd is going on if significantly smaller companies can offer a significantly larger selection.

A top-tier vendor has a whopping three notebooks (including one home laptop, one netbook and one business laptop) and two desktops (one home, one business)?

Seriously?!

System76 has five notebooks (two netbooks, three laptops) and six desktops (two nettops, four desktops).

ZaReason has seven laptops (one netbook and six notebooks; there is a netbook which isn't currently shown that's sold out and getting refreshed) and eight desktops (one nettop and seven desktops).

Something odd is going on if significantly smaller companies can offer a significantly larger selection.

It is simple to avoid all hardware related issues with all Linux distros today, especially those related to WiFi, Sound, Video, etc....

Follow this advice and NEVER have problems again, ever.

Purchase your hardware ONLY from Linux Vendors, my favorite is ZaReason. Another is System 76. I know there are many more.

I just updated to Ubuntu 10-10 last night on my Breeze Pro 4220 (starting at $399, still under $816 with quad core, 4GB RAM and 1GB HD) and it is working like a champ! I love getting 4 cores, 4GB RAM and a GB hard drive for under $816...love it!

If you want to run Windows (for games) I get that, purchase Windows 7 separately and install it, the method you choose will vary and is up to you...but at least you KNOW IT WILL WORK.

Linux has more device drivers than any other operating system in the world, ever. The only reason anyone has problems is always related to proprietary hardware/software/BIOS crap...all of which is easy to avoid, purchase from a Linux vendor ONLY.

Same with Android, buy only hardware where you have Linux root access, avoid all other proprietary chips/hardware.

Follow that advice and no more problems, ever.

It is that simple.

My next PC from ZaReason will also run CentOS, Damn Small Linux and Fedora in addition to the latest greatest Ubuntu. If I have learned anything from all the Microsoft Windows BS over the years, its never put all your eggs in one basket. Also, if you only have two choices, you have no choice.

And this is why we have sellers such as

• ZaReason—request just about any Linux distro you want, even if it's not in the drop-down field (my fave—the only OEM I've found selling systems with KDE and Xfce based distros in addition to GNOME ones)
• System76—all Ubuntu
• Dell—they finally have a desktop with Ubuntu 10.04, and there's some 9.04 & 9.10 laptops

Mac OS = 1 company
Linux = A few companies ( I count three)
Windows = Very many companies

If that's a valid comparison, so is the smartphone OS one.

buy from someone else

http://system76.com/
http://zareason.com/

Wow, big fucking newsflash that was. Buy a computer with a particular OS preloaded and it Just Works. Damn. Who'da thunkit? Probably these guys. I'll bet a Linux computer from these people will work pretty spiffily OOTB too.

It is actually very interesting to me that Canonical does not have a hardware offering and does not seem to be partnering with any hardware makers to customize Ubuntu for that company's devices. I don't understand why that is, but maybe it is just under the radar or they have good business reasons.

Are you talking about something like System76?

Adoption of Ubuntu is increasing inside of my motorcycle club, who's colors are purple and orange. In fact I'm heading out tonight to get two of our members set up on their new System76 desktop.

Nice idea, and I keep wondering why Ubuntu doesn't do this

You'll find it here http://www.system76.com/