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E-Mail Patent Roundup From The NYT
griffjon writes: "This NYT article details a new patent on getting spam to offline e-mail readers with popup ads and banners more annoying than your average spam. Fantastic. Also contains a funny patent about e-mailing stolen computers to retrieve them." I love the system that would let a predetermined e-mail subject line "initiate a predetermined security response, either locking the display screen so nothing would appear, showing only the name and contact information of the owner or erasing the laptop's hard drive." That one sounds foolproof, eh? (freeregistrationrequiredofcourse.)
Yet more ways to invade people's lives. It's bad enough that OutlookExpress runs VBS attachments by default, basically letting anyone get at your contact manager, but now we have to play wack-a-porn in our inbox?
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Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
SPAM Luncheon Meat is a Hormel product. Here's Hormel's official position of use of the term "spam" to refer to unsolicited bulk mail.
<O
( \
XGNOME vs. KDE: the game!
Will I retire or break 10K?
ibot is right - follow simple practices for keeping spam out of your mailbox: don't post it in newsgroups, use a throwaway account for Barnes and Noble, etc. Get familiar with the D key. And don't spend too much time worrying about it.
Your IP changes, the network that it connects to changes, but unless they rip out the Ethernet Card and replace it with another one - or unless they reinitialize the MAC addess (something VERY old III-com cards let you do), you have one hardware address which defines what your card is no matter what.
A few years ago, when I worked in IT, we had a strange portscan coming from one of our internal machines, becasue everything was DHCPed we used the MAC Addr to identify the offender... half a days worth of work, but it got our manager off our backs... only because we had a listing of our MAC Addresses (some old inventory thing) was this usefull... I could tie it to a name (so I could find the machine)... I'd assume that with a couple of extra days, we could have checked the routers out and gone and listened for the same network activity if we didn't know where the machine was located... on a rediculous side...
I don't necessarily view any of these as practical or useful solutions (even the MAC stuff) its just a thought as to how they might be doing it... finding a MAC address without knowing an IP though would be like trying to find a needle in a haystack...
We went IP->MAC->TABLE->LOCATION, what you'd have to go with is MAC->IP->ISP->LOG->UID->LOCATION. I don't know the feasability of that...
An alternate approach (and semi-jokingly)
X=V*T right?
So, if you can tell how long it takes to ping a site, and you have some way of measuring the datarate, you can determine the distance between the two computers... Of course, you would need to then perform this on an adjacent node, run the test again, figure out if you are closer or further, and continue until you got as close as possible (backtrack as necessary)... It winds up being a pain in the ass neural network problem where everyone that owns some hardware between here and there would have to agree to be used as some sort of internet sonar...
You say you want a revolution?
As for it being obvious, yeah, probably. As Architect for FreeMark Communications (a Juno competitor at the time), I "invented" the same thing in early 1995 and we applied for patents prior to Juno's application. Unfortunately, FreeMark folded before our patents were approved, so Juno got it by default.
Note that Juno's patent covers on-line delivery of ads for off-line viewing. This means it applies to anything that "dials-up", downloads e-mail and ads, then "hangs-up". Services like WebTV fall into this category as possibly do TV devices like the ReplayTV or Tivo PDRs.
This is just another in a long line of bad patents. And its only getting worse. Check out Mercata's patent on Dynamic market equilibrium management system, process and article of manufacture (ie, co-op buying), issued just yesterday.
Thank you :).
Althogh technicaly it's 1/2 serius.
It stops being funy if we say which half.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
OK so it's a crime to intentionally create a booby trap. However my Dell PII-300 laptop runs so hot normally I can't even hold it in my lap. It's not a stretch of the imagination to "accidentally" have a short to burn up the box and maybe start a toxic battery spill.
The idea has to be so obvious that some random guy (optionally with a university education) working from his garage can think it up. At that point, it has to be so obvious its not worth a patent. Whereas, if a highly-paid team of opportun^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H corporate researchers can come up with it, then it must be worth a patent!
Yeesh... You Americans! ;-)
(Note: The only serious thing in this post is this paragraph.)
-RickHunter
now there's an opportunity for people to deny email service... just plug the.guy@i.dont.like.com into the spamnet and the guy isnt able to send email to anyone. bad idea.
There's a site in Australia called Emailcash that is doing that, has been for about a year now. I haven't seen many emails from them as yet (maybe one a month at the most) but a few people I know have received $5, $10 or $20 cheques from them.
- Chuq
Ahh, but the patent is not on you or I chaining *nix commands together, but on doing this in a business context, hence the term business method patent.
There was a /. article a while back about someone whose laptop had distributed.net running on it.. the laptop got stolen... the theif logged on the net with that laptop... the blocks were uploaded... and with a bit of help from the d.net guys they found the IP address, ISP and identity of the bad dude! :)
- Chuq
Please! Stop publicizing the non-reg links. Every time there's a NYtimes article, someone has to put in the obligatory karma hungry post of "here's the non-reg link". Inevitably, the non-reg hosts that are published get closed down.
If people have a philosophical problem with NYtimes requiring registration, DON'T READ THE ARTICLE. It's not your God-given right to be able to access their site.
I can already do this... I have written procmail recipes that will shutdown my system given the proper set of characters in the subject. So what's so nifty about his patent? I could have it run any arbitrary command that I wanted. Isn't it wonderful how simple things can already be given a bit if *NIX ingenuity. :-)
Lojack works great on cars, politicians like to speed, they use them every day, and it has become engrained into society.
Computers are not so, we have tech illiterate, we have tech clueless and, tech phobic people (I am a tech phobic but... as you can see I still make my living on a computer - Lojack technology is what I fear).
Lets start with this simple scenario, the record company sees that you are distributing MP3s from your webiste or posting DeCSS or whatever. Under the DCMA they claim to a judge that your site is infringing ontheir rights. You are contacted and asked to cease and desist. Hypothetically, you refuse, calling some sort of 1st amendment (and also recognizing that if you willfuly stop, you are in some way acknowledging that you believe that what you are doing is wrong). Hypothetically, because you have a Lojack system, and this is now a case of some sort of computer crime, the police - the executive branch - have the responsibility of making you comply to the court order. Your computer is Lojacked off.
Next scenario, some "31337 h4x0r" (did i m1s3p3ll that?), instead of stealing your credit card this week, hacks the Lojack system, knocking off users indiscriminantly so they can get more bandwidth. Your off, the neighbors are off, everybody's off... the computer infrastructure is at a standstill. (Ironically, I'd go for this - LUDDITES REBEL!)
If this sells, you provide a pinpointable location to the police, you allow them complete control of your access and you give up your personal rights. While your at it, club a baby seal, shoot a bald eagle, and encourage your company to move overseas.
If you are concerned about your computer being stolen:
1. put a padlock on it - thats what colleges do, it may not completely prevent it, but it does make it take longer.
2. put a BIOS password on it - now they have to be tech savy enough to either reset or replace your BIOS.
3. remove all your external screws and replace them with those uni-directional bathroom stall screws.
4. use external hard drives only, and cary yours around with you at all times - sleep with it.
5. install your own GPS and a transmitter on the inside of the case, you find it, you tell the police where it is... leave a true Lojack system out of this.
Don't encourage the government to track and/or control you.
You say you want a revolution?
What about your network provider, whose bandwidth is stolen well before the user ever retrieves that email? They incur the costs, and pass it down to their customers ... Meaning that you already paid for your bandwidth, at least partially.
While each letter is short, it's a matter of scale. Spam contributes a non-trivial amount of load on the 'net, and technological solutions have only helped to a certain degree.
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
- Jeff
I'd love to know how they'd expect us to find a stolen machine in order to issue the "kill" email to it.
It's going to be on the net with a completely different ISP (if at all), and the new owner is not likely to access your email account even if the password is available; most ISPs I know of block POP3/IMAP connections that aren't coming from their own subnets.
Unknown IP address, no email connection, no points of contact... so how's this kill email supposed to be anything but a timebomb waiting to go off on the legitimate owner?
I'm just glad I don't have such an embarassing patent under my name. =)
---
Where can the word be found, where can the word resound? Not here, there is not enough silence.
"Where shall the word be found, where will the word resound? Not here, there is not enough silence." -T.S. Eliot
seems to me that that secuerty feture would un relible and hackable, And spam with popups? (/me sceams in horrer). I get enough of those blasted things on the internet. getting popup's in e-mail would be bad because it could be used to spread virii and whatnot this link will crash win9x
What's even dumber is that there's a company out there called mypoints that's been doing this for quite some time (though, granted, you have to actually signup to get the server/mailings, sounds like this guy would use it for spamming).
--Dg
I would think some sort of GPS transmitter or other device such that you could track the thing would be more helpful.
"This message is composed of 100% recycled electrons."
Sort of. :-)
A friend of mine had her laptop stolen. She used ICQ on it, so we all added her ICQ UIN to our lists.
The first time the stolen laptop came online, it automatically booted ICQ (the thief, I would suppose, wasn't too bright or computer literate). Bang! We had the IP address.
SeanMike
-- Wow. Another comment by SeanMike. All comments are not endorsed by IDI.
I don't think that fortune quite fits the bill, since it doesn't download a new version customized to your usage. OTOH, it does sound very, very similar to something that Mattel did, discussed in this Slashdot article a couple of months ago.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
I feel that this patent is not only as bad as Amazon's one-click patent, but these people have specifically stated that they will be investigating infringements. You can check out the Reuters press release for more high level info if you're interested.
I'd hate to be in mobshop's shoes right about now.
If you want freedom of speech online, and advertising is speech, then what the hell are you thinking?
The actual legal distinction here is that while the First Amendment guarantees you the right to say anything you want, it doesn't guarantee you the right to force anyone to listen to it.
Thus, you are allowed to publish a newspaper saying whatever you want (with some restrictions: libel, etc.), but you don't have the right to force the New York Times to print your screed against evil mind-hijacking black helicopters on the front page. Or, you can say whatever you want to whoever'll listen, but you don't have the right to take your own PA system to the Super Bowl and broadcast your views to millions of people who just want to watch a football game.
So, DeCSS is protected by the First Amendment because it is speech that is simply published on the web for anyone who wants to hear it to get it. The right to publish the phrase "Streaming Teen Sex Slumber Fest" with a hyperlink attached is similarly protected by the First Amendment. The "right" to place it in everybody's email inbox is not.
It's seems to me that one day, Amazon said to it's collective self, "Why Not? It couldn't hurt to try." And filed patent applications for everything internet related.
The patent office followed the established rules and granted them patents. They have a system established that works the way it works. None of that surprises me. What surprises me is that it was all pretty much uncontested. Any arguments to the patents were never brought out in the media, so it at least has the APPEARANCE of being uncontested.
What also surprises me is that Slashdot continually posts these lame Jon Katz articles, when personally I would try to get an interview with the Commissioner of Patents and Trademarks, a Deputy Commissioner, or even one of the two Assistant Commissioners. Boy, wouldn't that be informative and useful....
Does anyone else think that the patent system has gone too far from its intended use?.. On a second thought, don't answer that, I know you all agree.
Ñ'
Founder's Camp
Founder's Camp
News for non-Nerds. Stuff that matters.
Then if someone steals your computer while it's active then it will do something nasty possibly involving thermite.
Respond to s
Actually, according to Mr. Science, SPAM stands for:
Scientifically
Produced
Animal
Matter
This is, of course, the same guy that told us that ballpoint pens are living organisms, who spew ink in response to having their faces dragged across paper.
-Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music.
Spam that can lock your computer...
Or spit more ads at you...
--- Can i borrow your Clue-Stick(tm)? I need to go beat a few people with it...
I understand that many people consider that spam as well, but that kind of spam is at least controlled more easily.
Here's the abstract of the patent:
By the way, I wonder why they included via a modem in there. It seems like an unnecessary limitation.
"Ouch."
"..don't you eat that yellow snow."
If it had a Built In Webcam (tm) you could tak3 pictures and send 7hem to y0u.
or what ab0ut a fing3rprin7 l0ck? so identific4ti0n c0uld be sent to the p0lic3 when the attempt to 0pen 1t h4pp3n5.
What if it had lazerz and 5m0ke b0mbs!! wouldn7 that be c0ol? I c4n get s0me p4r7z 4nd h4x0r 0n3 70g37h3r 0u7 0f 5p4r3 m07h3rb04rdz 4nd 9unp0wd3r!!!!!!! 7H47 WUD B3 1337!!!!
wow... I should go...
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
What about a background process that contains an encrypted file and checks a web server for that file, if it doesn't find it, or that exact encrypted file, then nothing happens. If it finds the file (which you put there when your laptop was stolen) then it prompts you for the pass phrase to stop whatever will happen when it finds that file.
I think this has been done, if not, it would be trivial to do.
Oh well, patents suck
The patent office can't invalidate a patent, once issued. Only a US Federal Court can do that. Which means that, usually, somebody has to get sued on the patent first.
It gets worse. In order to intervene with the Patent Office before the patent is issued, you normally have to show standing. You can send the Patent Office prior art to consider, but they aren't bound by it. And normally patent applications _are_not_ made public, so the general public can't find out about it until the patent has been issued.
my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore
Using the paging infrastructure to do it is mildly cool, I guess, although this bit kind of puzzles me: "When an e-mail is received but the recipient is not online, the server matches the e-mail address to a dial-up paging service. A page is sent to a telephone number that results in an alert like a flashing light on the keyboard..." So if you're using what is effectively a pager, why don't you just send a page that says "You've got mail!" instead of hooking the pager to the computer, and then using the pager to flash a light? Hell, I could do that right now with nohup, biff, my pager company's email-to-pager gateway, and my ISP's shell machine.
I'm astonished that they gave out a patent for this technique. Administrators (should) already know and use it.
Isn't novelty a critical requirement for patents (i.e. no previous disclosure) ?
the email-initiated laptop destruct portion of the article reminds me of the public outcry surrounding the evil dangerous Kevin Mitnick, who was described BY THE US COURTS as being "capable of launching nuclear missles by whistling into a telephone".
so next time some big tech. corporation pisses me off i'll go on the subway and "accidentally" leave my laptop to be stolen, then after reporting it stolen send an e-command which will send out pre-scripted command to my legion of secretly hacked boxes to initiate a DoS against the hated corp.
And since I reported it stolen, I have a flawless alibi!
---
the problem with teens is they're looking for certainties.
Hollywood, Television, has become the dream machine. We need to take that back; each of us is a Dream Machine
He created a background image with a large photo of himself and the text: "If the person using this laptop doesn't look like this, its been stolen!" He also put his phone number and "Reward Offered" in it.
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
Why in the world is it my civic duty to do the patent office's job? You let them off for granting obvious patents, and then shift the responsibility on these bad patents to me.
I'm sorry, but I have better things to do than monitor the patent office's patent applications. And you know what? I shouldn't have to. I pay to have someone do it for me.
The patent office probably received the applications, couldn't find anything in the library to contest Amazon's (and you ever so cleverly worded "Some obscure company's") claims?
Sorry, they're not getting off that easy. If they had so much as asked ONE PROFESSIONAL in the industry whether they'd ever heard of HYPERLINKING, they would have been told that not only is there prior art, but that the idea is already in widespread use! Again, why are you letting them off on a plea of innocent ignorance, when their job is not to be ignorant?
And don't tell me some tear-jerker story about how many patents these poor few people have to go through. Because if that's the case, it's congress's responsibility to hire more examiners. Likewise, that's what I pay them to do.
As for objection to the patents, would you consider it conspicuous objection if someone really high-profile like, say, the president of a major computer book publisher wrote an open letter to a company who filed an obvious patent like maybe a major online bookseller? And how about the article I read about the Amazon patent in Newsweek a few months later? And then the article I read in my local newspaper a few weeks after that?
(And I have a couple of patents, and busted my ass to get them... so I can tell you how difficult it is to obtain one of these puppies.)
Right, I hope this isn't too presumptuous, but I'm assuming you're not the CEO of a multinational corporation with teams of lawyers?
--
Since you risk a two year sentence if you dont want to give the authorities the key to the PGP encrypted 733n pr0n on your laptop, you can send a killer e-mail instead after THEY come for you...
All opinions are my own - until criticized
Last time I looked, the "San Francisco inventor, Sunil Paul" was also chairman and co-founder of Brightmail, which has been executing on patent 6,052,709 for quite some time. Brightmail also hosted Spam Summit 2000 in Washington, DC last May.
Sendmail supports the RBL as a feature in version 8 I believe. I'm not a sendmail hack at all, and I had the whole thing set up in about 10 minutes.
One-ton tomato
"Large values of 2"?
Apples and pears are green
Therefore, for sufficiently large amounts of apples,
Oranges and lemons are green.
Telemarketers are actually more intrusive than spammers, and every time one calls me, I first tell them to put me on their "do not call" list, and then I really let them have it.
It's very important for telemarketing to be as unpleasant a job as possible, so that there will be plenty of personnel turnover, which drives up their costs.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
and here's why:
US Code Title 35 (regarding patents)
"Sec. 103. Conditions for patentability; non-obvious subject matter
(a) A patent may not be obtained though the invention is not identically disclosed or described as set forth in section 102 of this title, if the differences between the subject matter sought to be patented and the prior art are such that the subject matter as a whole would have been obvious at the time the invention was made to a person having ordinary skill in the art to which said subject matter pertains. Patentability shall not be negatived by the manner in which the invention was made."
If you all would stop whining, and put together a letter to the patent office detailing why this is obvious to us (since we ARE in the trade), you might be surprised that they pull the damn thing!
Ah ha, spammer son, you have discovered the dark arts of ad-fu(AAAHHH, blockstackers plug)? I will merely dispatch my procmail ninjas to deal with your insolence!
====
Crudely Drawn Games
Interesting comment. Perhaps lawsuits are the first step in natural selection toward the end of a species? That might be a bit hopeful for everything from spammers to the RIAA, but who knows?
Of course, if the RIAA/MPAA are any indication, the spammers will just unite into a giant "standards" organization, get a good set of lawyers to stop spammers that are spamming using their *innovative* techniques for free, and charge people to spam them.
all sound ridiculous to me. sure, he may own the ideas, but who's going to implement them?
ok, let me rephrase this: who in the open-source world is going to implement them? what will the IETF have to say?
i'm not worried one little bit.
EGN has already been there, done that, some 2 years ago. EGN is an ICQ clone by BrainScan specifically targeted at gamers that never really got off the ground. I've beta tested it, so incidentally my EGN ID# is 108, but that all is beside the point. Thing is, EGN displayed a little ad in the top part of the window, usually advertising some gaming site on the BrainScan network. A whole batch of those would be downloaded off the server when you're offline, and the ads would keep cycling when you were offline or lost connection.
)O(
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
To err is human, to moo bovine
Years ago I set up a unix box (at&t 3b2) to auto dail its own number very few days.
The box was stolen. When I spoke to the police, I mentioned that it would dial if it was hooked up. The phone company helped out and the police found the person who had the machine.
It turns out the only ones that knew it was stolen were the police and the insurance company.
In addition I think there should be a spammer tax id number included with every spam sent out, so that everyone can bill the spammer as appropriate for loss of bandwidth.
Only when the cost of spam is higher than the cost of doing business, then will the spam dis-appear
(gotta find a better way to say that)
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
A lojack type device would be better. Think about it when the computer turns on no matter where it is it send a signal and you can decide on what you can to it. Let the police capture then guy who had it. no e-mail no internet needed.
So /dev/microphone | speach-to-text | email_client someone@somewhere.com
cat
gets you a patent? surely there would be plenty of prior art of being read your email - isn't that what email clients for the blind do? and dictation isn't a new idea either, don't the ads for it mention dictating email?
it doesn't sound very novel to me.
the other patents don't sound to great either...
If its made open source to do that, think of the possibilities, scary. Take down aol easily.
"...without the spam?"
"..don't you eat that yellow snow."
All you have to do is configure procmail to reject any E-Mails not encrypted to your public key. If everyone did this, mass E-Mailing would require enough hardware to make spam unprofitable and the RBL would block the spammer out within the first couple of thousand addresses in his list, if one was so foolish as to try.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
It hasn't worked for over a week, neither does partners.nytimes.com (or any of the other www# servers). Try l/p regreqsucks/ihatethis.
Basicaly numbers get rounded somewhere.
2.4 wold get rounded to 2.
2.4 + 2.4 = 4.8
of course 4.8 gets rounded _up_ to 5
so yes. For suficently large values of 2
2 + 2 dose = 5
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Wait a minute... does this mean that melissa and iloveyou were... spam?
2 1337 4 u!
5. Vegitarians shouldn't have to deal with meat products getting mailed to them.
4. Handeling pork products violates many religions.
3. Nobody really knows what the hell "SPAM" stands for anyway.
2. Spam is the leading cause of traded lunches in elementry schools in the US.
And the #1 reason Spam should be banned:
Spam, like its E-mail counterpart, has very little wholesome content, and is mostly junk fillers.
--I assume full responsibility for my actions, except the ones that are someone else's fault.
I hope many, many means of spamming are discovered and patented! Then there will be:
I say, let the spammers make it as hard as they can for each other. No skin off our nose, and it may actually reduce the amount of spam out there.
Steve
Don't Turn Your Computer On, or it May Turn Itself Off
The ability to send an email to a computer, have it erase its hard drive, send out additional emails so you know it was successful, and then stop the machine from working.
:-)
:-)
Oh, wait! We already have that
Its called M$ Outlook.
I understand Pitr is working on a linux port this week
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
You got it! Good going sport
We knew you could do it. Keep up the good work
>I love the system that would let a predetermined >e-mail subject line "initiate a predetermined >security response, either locking the display
what ? someone patented the ILOVEYOU Virus already ?
what like this you mean or some thing similar??? (oh so k-rad) and cool......
wh47 |ik3 7hi5 y0u (V)34n 0r 50(V)3 7hing 5i(V)i|4r??? (0h 50 k_r4d) 4nd c00|......
.................................................
The article mentions a patent for adding bogus addresses to usenet etc. and monitoring them for spam. Stuff send to the addresses must be spam and the patterns it matches can be used to mark other messages as spam. This looks like something that orbs or maps does already. Can someone comment? Has someone got a patent of a technique that is currently in use?
development.lombardi.com
"my isp is 203.23.11.5" let's DoS his internet provider
Yeah, that's great, if when you swipe a laptop you give a rat's ass about the data on it. But if you don't none of this matters, you can just erase the damned thing and no software countermeasures are going to make a whit of difference.
Trees can't go dancing
So do them a big favor
Pretend dancing stinks!
Oh, wait! We already have that :-)
Its called M$ Outlook.
I understand Pitr is working on a linux port this week :-)
Actually he finished and released it. Poor trusting movie watchers. :-}
Yeah, they got rid of the other two. But you can use this new one(and try to keep this a little more low-key, huh guys?):
i ztech/articles/07pate.html
http://channel.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/08/b
Perhaps better though would be a co-operative system that did just that. If you have your own personal spam list, what if you had your service tell other services when you received something that you considered spam, and they could then filter. Only you would get like spam conflicts where sometimes you want that particular, but hey we're engineers we can solve anything right?! ;)
Everyone is living in a personal delusion, just some are more delusional than others.
-----------------------
Nicotine free Amish .sig.
Really the poster makes a good point. Spam isn't going to go away at all. As long as people have email addresses they will have spam
Respond to s
Their idea is to award bonus points for each answered message. Each piece of junk e-mail would contain an offer of bonus points, and when the recipient replied to the pitch, a database system would transfer points to their name. The bonus points accumulate, and eventually the junk e-mail recipient can redeem them for gifts.
There's a patent for that? How retarded. This makes the guy who applied for a patent for the wheel look sane.
--
I'm sorry. The number you have reached is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again.
The abstract, background, and preferred embodiment sections of a patent have little if any legal force. Only the claims define the scope of the patent. And my Dr. Mario clone (like all Dr. Mario clones) falls well within the claims of Nintendo's patent 5,265,888 on Dr. Mario.
<O
( \
XGNOME vs. KDE: the game!
Will I retire or break 10K?
People are already thinking
Respond to s