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Tom's Hardware Linux NVidia Benchmarks
diehard writes: "Tom's Hardware has posted a set of benchmarks of NVidia cards running under Xfree86 4. They are pretty impressive - it looks like Linux has finally become truly viable for gaming."
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*rolls eyes* Troll
Do some research. Nvidia clearly said IN ABOUT 20 INTERVIEWS that they'd liek to Open Source their drivers *BUT* they have signed various NDAs on sections of their technology, and they would be in direct violation if they released the source.
I've had lunch with one of the nvidia linux developers, and he laid the whole thing out. Believe all the conspiracies you want, I don't care, but don't go spreading FUD.
logitech firstmouse+ (with wheel), using the "IMPS/2" protocol. here are the relevant xf86config lines:
Driver "mouse"
Option "Protocol" "IMPS/2"
Option "Device" "/dev/mouse"
Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5"
Option "Resolution" "1000"
Option "SampleRate" "85"
I also have "xset m 0 0" on.
I've tried all sorts of variations on these numbers, I've tried booting X with no window manager and a single xterm, etc etc etc.
As I said, my mouse performance in windows is excellent, so hardware shouldn't be the problem.
Standard Linux Troll Response #41:
;j
Linux as an operating system can and should handle all of the tasks we're asking of a desktop computer today. The mainstream, easy to use OS will help me play UT (have you heard about the unappreciated art form that is FPS?) Don't count out games as one of the driving (pun intended:) forces behind the growing demand for big iron power in little iron boxes. I see little danger in Linux becoming a "gaming" OS.
I'd hate to see a bunch of punkass newbie kids come in and rune the powerful thinking man's little slice of heaven
As far as I know, the NVidia-drivers are
closed source.
Has something changed the last 30 days?
Yep. i'm Raul. Maybe one of these days we'll be slashdotized and get a few thoushand hits, you listening CmdrTaco? :-)
Thanks Flo.
SGI's transposition to IA-32 has got to be one of the worst mistakes in the company's history. SGI Linux boxes are not worth the exorbant amount of money they cost consumers. You can get IA-32 workstations from almost anyone that support PCI 2.1 and UDMA standards. The NUMA system used in the MIPS based Origin boxes was something thats pretty limited to MIPS. Their Intel machines are no more powerful than anyone else's Intel machines, the only real difference is the price. Please stop bringing SGI into these sorts of conversations. Their adoption of Windows NT was a PR stunt as was their adoption of Linux. The only reason they ported Linux to their Origins was to give a little life into a product they're no longer working on improving. An Origin running Linux won't be any faster than it was running Irix but it will have a larger library of programs that will run on it with a minimum of tweaking. No one is really developing for Irix anymore and SGI knows that operating systems don't mean nearly as much as the actual applications do. They're now merely opening up and/or porting their software and such so whoever ends up buying them won't own some important pieces of software like Maya and OpenGL.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Pick either:
1. NVidia hasn't created a proper install-script for it (NVidias fault, not an inherit fault of Linux).
2. The drivers are not opensource, so many distributors hesitate in distributing the NVidia driver with Linux, making point 1 obsolete. Again not an inherit fault of Linux. NVidia can remedy this as well.
I'm not trying to be a troll, but it is quite annoying when some people give Linux and XFree86
the blame for something that is in the hands of
the manufacturer (NVidia).
That said, I'll probably buy an ATI radeon, because of the opensource-nature of the drivers.
Why does NVidia has so much to hide, when ATI doesn't?
I don't recall the details, cause I *still* haven't had time to mess with Linux Q3A, but a friend of mine said something about renice-ing X to fix the mouse performance issues. He also mentioned a script that will do it for you (among other things) before starting up Quake. Sorry for being so vague, but there *is* a solution out there.
> Is there ANY graphics card in the same class (or better) as NVidia
No. The Voodoo5 needs to be plugged into a hard disk cable (in the V5 6000, the mains - whoever heard of a video card you had to plug into a wall?) and still gets beaten by the GTS (and even the GeForce DDR) in benchmarks, the Matrox G400 [although nice] is a few generations old (it's TNT2-Ultra generation), and... what's left? S3 makes budget chips, PowerVR's no longer a factor (or has drivers)... nVidia's the best we've got!
If you want something in a lesser class than a nVidia card (and I'm just thankful that there are drivers, whether they're OSS or not) you might like to head towards the Matrox G400, which is a Nice Card. But not a GeForce GTS, which is hopefully going to be my next video unit. Until the NV20 comes along...
Can you count? In order to make things a little more palitable for those who were not trained using SysV SuSE decided to go numerologically. 0 is halt, S for single user mode, 1 for multi-user no network, 2 for multi-user and network, 3 for multi-user with network and XDM starting at boot with 6 being reboot. 1, 2, and of course 3 for the main init modes people are going to be using. SysV wasn't designed for uninitiated users while SuSE's market is a gaggle of uninitiated users.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
--
Full plate and packing steel! -Minsc
yes -- driver model -- can't hack it
I would have to disagree with most of what you have said.
SGI going to IA32/IA64 is an obvious choice.
The MIPS is falling behind in mhz.
SGI shops feel comfortable staying with the SGI name but they will leave them if the price/performance ratio drops too much.
I agree that the SGI web servers are a joke... they are manufactured by VA, I believe, so why not buy a VA box?
I also agree with the switch to NT. But I also know that the people I work with that want the SGI NT boxes will not give them up for Octanes.
Obviously you haven't been paying attention to SGI press releases... The Origin line has gone from the 200 to the 2000 to the 3000 series, all in the last year or two. Each of them still being sold and produced. They are expanding the line.
By IA64 compatability in the 3000 line, they are allowing themselves to take advantage of a largely distributed CPU that will continue to be developed and improved.
Also... most programs that run under Linux are also ported for Irix. And... even if the Origins do run Linux on the MIPS, the code still needs to be ported for the chip, so that argument is moot.
Maya is still being developed for the SGI, so people are still developing for it. Maya is a killer app. It is why we have 50+ SGI boxes in house. I know other studios are the same.
As I have said, people buy SGI for the name. The name implies a level of quality and support. Big places spend money for products they trust.
Don't go counting out SGI yet.
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
do you really sit in front of your computer for an hour doing nothing but watching the progress bar move? Why do I find it hard to believe that anyone pays you 15 dollars an hour, much less 50?
Your highschool level knowledge of economics is better than most slashdotters, I'll give you that.
I guess it also has something to do with the type of movement in a FPS compated to tv or film.
In tv/film you mostly have very similar images following each other, e.g. a person walks across the screen, but the background remains the same. In this kind of a situation, at 25fps your brains 'blurs' the images together and everything appears to be fluid.
In FPS games on the other hand, it is common for 2 consecutive images to be completely different, e.g. when you do a 180 mouse flick to look behind you. In maybe 0.5s the background changes completely. In this kind of situation you brain might actually notice that 25fps, while 60fps would be much more comfortable.
The xfree86 FAQ at their site says "If you want 640x480 without scrolling, remove all the larger modes." This is not acceptable.
Email me nicely using (and damn well use pgp!) at teo@nvnetworking.com and maybe i'll send you a copy.
I have many times gone on there.. ripperda is no help at all.. Hes asked me to email him, and I have several times.. again, he doesnt respond. I guess my website aint big enough to garner tech support. And just last night, I msged him again with my problem, his response was that hes never heard of that problem happening (so either he doesnt read my emails, or nvidias mail server is as flakey as their drivers) and to email him again.. So I have.. again, no response.. The users on #nvidia are somewhat ok, but usually go WAY off topic WAY too much and your question(s) end up getting mixed up in a conversation in which classic computer was better, the c64 or the atari?
Go onto irc.openprojects.net, #nvidia. I found this to be an excellent source of technical support for my problems. They have nVidia staff online to help you out.
Huh? Could you please elaborate?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The big problem is getting graphics chip specs from graphics chip makers.
Dirk Hohndel (XFree core team member and SuSE CTO) said in his speach at LinuxTag that it has become MUCH better, both because Linux is getting more important and because the gfx card makers get more confidence in the word of the XFree team not to break NDAs etc. He gave the example of Matrox. IIRC, for the first card they didnt give any documentation, for the second some after it had shipped and now (for the G400?) they gave complete documentation before it shipped.
I love the comment on toms site on how nvidia is working with him to fix out the bugs. Funny how nvidia doesnt do that with end users. I know of at least 4 other users who have emailed nvidia about problems with the linux drivers/gl drivers and nvidia doesnt even care to respond. They have no bugzilla setup, no nothing to track bugs or whether or not they even received your email. (and man, there are some huge bugs in nvidia drivers, from console switch lock ups to X not even loading) I guess I have to own my own website before they will respond to me.. oh well.
Tom has taken a big step for him in dedicating a review to Linux. He has the following to say about it:
This was my first Linux hardware review and it will certainly not be my last. The first time is always supposed to be the hardest, but the most rewarding as well. Please let me know how I performed here. Was I babbling too much about Linux? Weren't there enough facts in the review? Don't you care about 3D stuff in your Linux-box? Please give me feed back under tomslinux@tomshardware.com . I will try to live up to the expectations of the Linux community, but first I need to know what they are.
We need to encourage him! Tell him some of the things we would like reviewed with linux benchmarks. Thank him for taking a big step in dedicating a whole review to linux. Only good things can come of this!
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
Try a USB mouse. My Microsoft Intellimouse refreshes 80 times a second under XFree4.
Download a fast DirectX Tetris Clone [276 k]
You need DGA to be activated...is it?
My plan is to pimp before they realize I'm a jackass. Hit 'em hard and fast.
I would go for Linux as my primary gaming platform if they were more games (like Deus Ex, The Sims, etc.) and more support for games. As it stands, Win2000 is my primary gaming platform, with Linux as my programming platform.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Now, maybe I'm an idiot, but I could have sworn that runlevel 5 is generally the one that runs XDM/GDM/etc by default. When I 'init 2' I get a system with no NFS, and no eth0!
Just a thought.
With the next release of RedHat it should autodetect your video and with any luck automatically install the correct configuration for 3D acceleration.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
explain unpowered PS2/VGA switchboxs then?
"1) There are no HOWTO's or webpages dedicated to your card. When you ask a simple question, you will immediately be bombarded by three morons who say "why didn't you read through the last 712 messages! everything you need is there!""
Actually, everything you should need is really on these two pages:
http://dri.sourceforge.net/DRIcompile.html
and
http://dri.sourceforge.net/DRIuserguide.html
Ranessin
Its good to see a major site like Tom's Hardware giving Linux some limelight.
As for those 'l33t users' who say that games will somehow damage your precious OS, this is nonsense. Thats the wonderful thing about Linux, because its Open Source, and there are many distros, you can tune it to do exactly what you want (unlike with other OSs); you want a console-only network station for a l33t user, get Slackware or Debian, or grow your own distro. You want games, get SuSe, or Redhat or something and install high powered drivers, and games and stuff; ITS YOUR CHOICE; YOUR POWER! USE IT!
Okay.
I have an unpowered KVM switchbox. With some of my systems it worked. Other systems would lock solid or just lose keyboard or mouse support until rebooted. I've since purchased a decent, inexpensive powered KVM, and the problems have gone away.
"Be Happy or Die." -- AoN
In one respect, I agree with you.
I too wouldn't want to see Linux become
what Win98 is today, more of the main
platform for games than for productivity.
It irks me that some people try to get into
Linux not because of the advantages of using
the OS but because it's 'cool' and its all
hype these days. I had a relative that tried
to mimic me and set up a linux server,
which I'm happy to say that he failed
miserably.
Why did he fail? It wasn't because he
didn't have the resources available to him
that I did? no. It wasn't because he had
inferior hardware to me? quite the contrary.
He failed because he didn't take it seriously.
All he was concerned about was feeding his
ego. And in that respect, I agree with your
statement. If you're not going to bother
to get serious with Linux, then stay away.
Because the last thing anyone wants is for
disgruntled users who've tried and failed to
use linux trash it to everyone else.
IMHO,
No, OpenGL/GLX doesn't give specifications of the card's capabilities (At least last time I looked). Like for example, I might want to enable bump mapping for better quility, but if the card doesn't support that in hardware, I'd prefer to disable it for the speed.
Even if you have an API like DirectX which tells you the capabilities of the hardware, to do it right you have to ignore this and just time a frame with bump mapping and then decide whether to use it. For example bump mapping might only run in hardware, if you have less than 3 lights. How do you want to describe this with capability bits (flags). Also, even if it runs in hardware, but is much slower than an alternative (say, using many polys) that looks as good, then you would use the alternative. As a gfx developer you are not interested in what runs in hardware, but in how fast it is. Also, like the other person wrote you can leave these decisions to the user, since its also a matter of taste.
Do you mean that there now exists an agreed upon standard for development such as OpenGL?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Yes. Splendid. I'm the stupid quake gamer. Right. Can you also come up with some good arguments for the stupid quake gamer why gaming does not belong on a linux platform, if it is nevertheless quite possible to do so?
I mean, it's not like we're tapping into your cpu cycles or anything.. Why are you so scared by drivers that might come with a standard distribution that happen to cover the leading 2D/3D graphics board in consumer pc's, and that users can choose not to use. I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense. Keeping windows alongside should in the end not be a necessity, but you make it sound like it should be.
Ohyeah, FYI (probably not), only Quake I and Unreal run acceptably on my PPro 180 Banshee (that's right, I don't even *have* an nVidia card) System. Gnome, KDE & Enlightment however are a totally different set of tears, and that's just static bitmaps!
Over to you, Frank.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
You're certainly the one person whose graphical opinions I trust. However, I personally find the tearing associated with blts to be visually distracting. It's not *so* bad in Quake engine games, but is quite obvious in others. Would the following be a valid solution? Composite your image in another buffer. Then blt from the composite buffer into the linear back buffer and when the blt is complete, swap the front and back buffers on the next vsync? I feel that many people are starting to ignore tearing just because they want the highest possible framerate and it concerns me. Tearing is an artifact that ought to be solved; we should not have to learn to live with it, IMHO.
Well, this is a good start. Perhaps now we can add some of the other things that gamers like - for example an ability to change resolution and depth when not running as root.
And how about a 3D API that allow you to optimise speed for the capabilities of the graphics card. Or some low level support for 3D cards in the frame buffer device (which could solve both these problems quite easily)
I think I'm the only one who prefered the old days when the OS was considered irrelevent for games, except for as a program launcher, and something that should be disposed of as soon as possible. How many people want to multitask their web server with quake anyway?
I mean, if a sane person read that, without the 'mutherfucker' and 'idiot' in the post, they probably would agree.
Most of the coments I see are gamers pondering if it is worth it yet to game on the Linux platform, even with the better benchmarks. Some seem to think that because the mAcro$oft becnhmarks are still a tad better that they should stick with the gamers OS of choice.
I come from the other end of the spectrum. I am anxiously awaiting these near similar benchmarks. Linux graphics machines are going to be a reality soon. The A|W port of Maya is going to be ready next year, the SGI Linux boxes exist, and now, the drivers seem like they will be ready for the release.
This is great news. All SGI shops now have an alternative to NT. I know that many are evaluating the choice of SGI vs. NT with the increased NT performance and the lower prices. With Linux in the mix, good things can happen.
If you look at what SGI has been doing in the last couple of months, they have been setting themselves up for this switch.
1) SGI has ported Linux to work on the Origin series of machines.
2) SGI has designed the next series of Origins to run on either IA64 or mips (with Linux support)
3) SGI has produced Linux graphics workstations with more standard hardware than the NT only boxes of a few years ago.
4) SGI has worked closely with NVidia for graphics hardware solutions
5) SGI has signed a deal with Intergraph (one of the leaders in NT graphics boxes) to sell Intergraph boxes
The first four point to Linux in the graphics world. The last one seems to either be a failsafe or.. as I see it, a chance to sell more boxes that could be dual boot graphics stations with some research.
The next year will be interesting for all places that are SGI shops.
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
So then you would be Raul Alonso, I guess? Or someone else who worked on this? Anyhow, I just wanted to say thanks to you people for a hell of a great program, and to everyone else who happens to have a decent OpenGL card, go check his link out and get OpenUniverse now.
I used ssystem as a screensaver on my Voodoo back in the days and liked it a lot, so I was interested to find the recent OpenUniverse review in C'T magazine. And I have to say I'm very impressed with this program on my TNT2. Visually stunning as well as educational I've spent quite some hours zooming around the solar system already.
Thanks,
Flo
Fortunately, though, Debian (which is the only true Linux out there) still costs $0 to install/use from the 'net. And the CDs, from www.cheapbytes.com for instance, are little more than what blanks would cost ($7 US for two CDs).
Since Debian has its roots in the GNU project, and is the only GNU distribution of Linux (and therefore entirely open-source/free), it would lead me to consider it the best choice out of all the Linux distros.
Sarge
i think the distro's should come with the drivers, and on installation should setup the proper drivers for playing games for you video card. and should also provide a way to keep it current. a couple of rpms, mandrake update, or apt-get, or somthing of the sort.
not only would this be great, and make gaming under linux, actually, just gaming. but it would attract new people to check it out under linux, and buy linux games, which would result in more ports. and lastly, this would be even better than the system windows currently uses ;) so it would not just be matching windows in some respect, but beating it to somthing :)
-------
-------
"don't smoke, don't drink, don't fuck
at least i can fucking think"
Minor Threat
Crap.
...ah.. this trick question, I'll leave to you, the power user.
I think basicly any linux app still has a long way to go before they become usable on the desktop. And while applications are what make OS'es work or not, Games considerably help push the numbers up in a steady pace, both in hardware and software.
What harm will it do to finally have some drivers you can choose to install ? If there is a (large) demand for such things, and the people even get what they want, for free, then why does the much celebrated linux diehard guru has to have a problem with gaming all of a suddden?
Man, I don't mean to be rude, but Linux is slowly changing shape if you hadn't noticed. Linux strives to compare with (and surpass) windows. Well, it better cover every inch of the playing field (read: market), not just that of the skilled & savvy power users, or someone is going to pull the plugg on his development cycle. Does this mean my aunty has to able to run linux ? maybe.. does that mean power users will have to button-click ? I hope not.. should we all be free to do as we like ?
With great power comes great electricity bills.
So adovocating for open source (as a general pricipal or for this driver in particular) would put you in violation of the agreement ... and nvdia's lawyers will come and take your 1st born child (of graphics card whichever is more precious to you :-)
A) It doesn't screw everything else. Everything else just doesn't get very many resources. And, it only happens while you're running the game. How often have you played Quake, and done something else at the same time? A lot of "hog" features are dependant on what the app asks for. If it is a simple game, that one could play in a window while doing something else, then that app can ask for a "cooperation level" that allows it to coexist peacefully with other apps. However, if it is a demanding game like Quake, DirectX allows it to use all the resources of the system. However, since 99% of the people can't play Quake and do something else at the same time, it doesn't matter. The minute you pause and switch out of Quake, then the resources go back to the applications you're using.
The whole OS doesn't run in user-mode, just services that don't need Ring0. And a lot of services don't. For example, if you're drawing a line, you don't need to go into ring 0 to do it. Or if you're asking for information about a font. Remember, Windows is essentially, Linux +X+GNOME+Mozilla. In Linux, X,GNOME and Mozilla run in user-space anyway.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I have no clue what PGP is. And I've never heard of a way to patch DirectX 5 into NT4. The HAL won't let you do it. You can get DirectX 6 to appear as the installed version, but that's only because DirectShow or something runs up to version 6 on NT, and the DirectX control panel reports the highest component as the installed version. How exactly is this done?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I think Linus is wrong on this issue. (Yea, I'm arguing with god, shoot me.) Dependance on source compatiblitiy is a BAD thing. It leads to lack of cleary defined interfaces. It leads to non-replacibility, and all sorts of ugly things. Plus, it practice, it is not necesarily the best thing. Take a look at Windows drivers. 99% of them are closed source. Many of them are superior to their Linux counterparts. If having a stable driver API didn't work, why are Windows drivers stable? Maybe it's just me, I like COM, I like C++, so maybe I don't "get it." However, I point to BeOS as a good example of a driver API. They have dynamically loading, binary drivers. However, they maintain API versions. Thus, if an API break absolutely needs to occur, all changes can be lumped together and released as a new driver API. Now the kernel will still be able to load old drivers with a minimum of performance hit, and bloat really doesn't increase, because new driver APIs are rare. Above all, a stable driver API encourages stable code. Since the driver API is solid and non-changing, drivers can get maturity without having all types of changes. Face it, changing old source to use a new interface is an inherently dangerous process full of hacks and workarounds. Not a good idea for something as critical as a driver.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
A) Texture RAM is cheap. For the last few years, graphics cards have doubled the amount of texture memory every year. Watching texture RAM is not something that people will have to do anytime soon.
B) Memory bandwidth is a much bigger problem than the amount. However, this one will soon be solved as well. The PSX2 is already using embeeded video memory, and the GCube, (with 32MB or embedded memory) is what PC graphics cards will look like in a few years. It would not be hard to imagine a card with a large bank of main memory, a large texture cache, and compression features to move compressed texture over the memory bus into the texture cache. Or, they might just use freakishly fast RAM like Hercules is doing on their cards. Or go the Matrox route and use very wide busses. There are many solutions to the problem.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
you stole my sig you bastard.
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
I have a P2/400 and a Creative 3d blaster annhiliator 2 (forget the exact name.. its the caard with the Geforce2 GTS) and can play q3 at 1600x1200 with everything set up to the max. Runs very smooth. No mouse problems either.
And that was with the standard 0.9-4 drivers from nvidia's website. I went to irc.openprojects.net and talked to the guys in #nvidia and got drivers optimized for the PPro (or better) and got a 5-10% bump in 3d performance. (Using the mesa "gears" demo to measure)
siri
Having the source to the driver means that if I'm sufficiently clued, I can make the driver work with my Linux 7.2 system. If I'm not sufficiently clued, then I can learn. Not having the source means that I'll have to figure out how the entire card works, which is going to became sufficiently close to impossible in the near future that it's not worth it as cards become more complicated.
The Linux driver API is never going to be stable. Linus has said this. Even when the external API remains stable, the internal kernel structures may change. A module that compiles on both 2.2.12 and 2.2.16 may not work if I try to install one compiled under 2.2.12 on a 2.2.16 system. At the end of the day, the Linux kernel is open source. Anything that interfaces with the kernel and is not open source is going to increase the difficulty for users and is significantly more likely to cause problems.
NT actually performs better in Quake than Win98 does.
Oh? On my machine software-rendered Quake was doing 50% of performance on NT compared to 98. So...
For some time I've been thinking of preparing a 'sub-distribution' (i.e., take an existing distribution, reconfigure and repackage) targeted at the 'Gametop' (gameheads whose main purpose for using a computer is to play games). It would look something like:
GAMELINUX
The conquest of the Gametop is a necessary step in the quest for world domination. The ingredients are available, we just need to put them together.
Various Legal notices:
Enjoy,
Eusebio (@corelcity.com)
You're wrong. I hate to start a post that way, but if you think you have your facts correct, then post a URL to either a Microsoft or Intel web page (or any other manufacturer) that states that you are correct. Plugging a PS/2 peripheral, keyboard or mouse, while the system is running may cause the motherboard to stop responding. The OS you run doesn't even enter into it. My friend, Justin, has also fried his motherboard's PS/2 controller by plugging in a PS/2 mouse that had become loose. The MSI motherboard and Logitech mouse both bear the Windows 9x logo.
Maybe a Voodoo5.
Also, considering that nvidia took so damn long to make decent driver for linux, I might not trust them to keep it up to date. Yea, they may have excuses, like no dri or whatever at that time, but they didn't even bother to update the damn thing for almost a year. I mean, they could have had a fix for the no double-buffering in xscreensaver, but they didn't bother to post it (it was fixed in the utah-glx distro of that driver.)
On my machine hardware rendered Quake 20% faster and a lot smoother (consitancy of framerate) than on Win98. On NT, my OpenGL apps (again hardware rendered) run about 15% faster. So... The truth is that in general, NT performs better for OpenGL applications. Notice I said OpenGL applications. I'm pretty sure Quake's software renderer doesn't use OpenGL. Either way, it doesn't matter what your particular machine does. In general concensus is that NT performs better for OpenGL.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
dload xfree86.org linux binaries of 4.01
run xinstall.sh
run XFree86 -configure
edit your new XF86Config till it works properly (hint - do a xf86config & copy details from that to your "-configure" generated one - you need to select "generic vga" as your card though)
get: tdfx_drm-1.0-2.src.rpm & Glide_V3-DRI-3.10-6.i386.rpm from: here & follow the instructions on the page to install them
do a "modprobe tdfx" to load the module (before you "startx")
Quake III should now work, including DGA mouse (YMMV)(hint - create an .xinitrc in ~/ with "exec quake3" as the only command - if you change res ingame it tends to fsck your dektop on exit)
I agree that the documentation is sparse (nvidia does it much better), but it's early days for these drivers, & they are being actively developed.
--
Full plate and packing steel! -Minsc
Not to beat a dead horse and/or start another religious war, but it seems to me that the main reason installing this stuff is so hard is that it isn't bundled with XFree. Why? Oh yeah, they won't release the source...
Others pointed out that Win98 is more like $170. But that's not even the whole story..
Win98 does not include:
- web server
- email server
- news server
- telnet server
- remote graphics protocol
- professional-quality image manipulation program
- word processor
- programming editors
- compilers
- source code
- stability
- etc.
You get all of these in the $39 low-end RedHat distro (and the under-$5 CheapBytes copy of it).
I remember about a year ago, I got a very unofficial pack that sorta put dx5 (limited) onto NT4. It let a bunch of things run, but most others wouldn't... Not quite the real thing, but a good hack for some.
PGP is Pretty Good Privacy. Encryption, digital signatures... good stuff. Check out www.pgp.com or http://www.pgpI.org/ if you are outside of the USA.
--
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
I'm pretty sure that we don't have to flip pages to remove tearing. Just do the blit on vsync instead of immediatly after frame is ready and you are done. As we can only have refresh rates of 100Hz (ok, mayby you have 200Hz display - it really doesn't make difference) we have no problems to blit fast enough that blit is ready in time CRT starts drawing next frame. One can blit 320x200x8b VGA display with a Pentium 75 MHz fast enough to make it in vsync without tearing - why couldn't you make it in 1024x768 with your GeForce or better?
The problem with your suggestion (IMO) is that your two (or more) linear buffers must be in sync (you have to draw whole screen - including all the other windows in all of your linear buffers - every time something changes. It will not increase your performance!)
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Spelling and grammar mistakes left as an exercise for the reader.
All signs are pointing towards a future without page flipping, so adding the messy infrastructure for it now would be a mistake. Don't let benchmarking furor encourage a messy code architecture.
Points:
The benefit of page flipping is decreasing as more and more computation is done per pixel to the back buffer.
In the old days of 2D scrollers, you might barely cover the screen with one pass of writes, so page flipping could double your speed over blitting.
On a typical modern 3D game that becomes fill limited, under 25% of the performance is in the blit, and often under 10% in scenes with significant overdraw.
In upcoming games that composite 20+ layers of textures, the cost of a blit is down in the noise.
Blits add flexibility. Anti-aliasing is better done through a blit operation than with a deep front buffer. Other operations, like converting from a 64 bit work pixel to a 32 bit display pixel, or performing convolutions, are also better done with blits.
Back buffers are more optimally arranged in tiled patterns, while front buffers prefer linear scans.
Basically, our back buffers are starting to look less like raster
Page flipping doesn't apply to windowed rendering unless you butcher the X server to render all 2D to multiple buffers and clip all 3D operations. I consider that a bad thing. Making the full screen rendering more distant from windowed rendering is also a bad thing.
Every implementation of page flipping brings in a class of bugs, and obfuscates several code paths. It's not worth it.
John Carmack
That's life on the bleeding edge. If you don't like it, you can wait until RedHat revs, or some generous soul makes an RPM.
Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
My experience (one of the TNT2 cards, and a voodoo2): it autodetected the cards automagically, but I didn't have the modelines for my monitor (DOH!), but a quick look-at-your-old-config-files gave the modelines I needed. The man pages are a TON more helpful than they used to be, too.
RH 7.0beta can be gotten from a few mirrors if you can't get onto ftp.redhat.com (I got it from ftp://ftp.metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/ redhat/redhat-7.0-beta/pinstripe)
-Brian
I beg your pardon... Nethack has looked great on Linux for years!
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." - Alexander Hamilton
I'm sticking myself out on a karma limb here, but what the hell. Some things are worth taking a hit for.
The post I have replied to is NOT a troll, despite having been moderated as such. The poster has presented an entirely on-topic opinion (that, as an aside, I tend to agree with)
You, as a moderator, may or may not agree with the post, but not sharing the same viewpoint does not entitle you to slap him with "Troll" - especially when there are so many other REAL trolls to slap down.
I'll be looking for this one in meta-mod....
Good post Mr. AC.
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
That's why when I plugged in a PS/2 mouse to my computer while it was running it did a hard reboot (power-cycle)? :)
Absolutely! The Voodoo5 is an excellent solution. Price/Performance (the epensive GeFarce's do beat V5 true, and they can boast a $150 more expensive price tag too) is better than the GeFarce, it's got fully open drivers using the DRI, 3dfx has dedicated employees working on linux/unix (dri is for example being worked on in freebsd) drivers and everything including their api (glide) is totally open.
And Voodoo5 wipes the floor with any Nvidia card ever visual-quality wise. The Voodoo5 has totally unparalled visual quality.
I'll admit to being biased, I don't like Nvidia as a company, and I do like 3dfx as a company. I make no effort to hide my views.
Just because NVidia may (or may not) privately express their wish to Open Source their drivers doesn't change the _real_ problem one whit.
The problem is not some metaphysical "corruption" of a "pure and free" Linux system, it's a much more practical issue.
The Linux kernel is under constant revision and continual development. Sometimes, the driver API changes - typically for a very good reason - and then any binary-only driver will break.
This means that in order for your binary-only driver to continue to function as the kernel is revised, the provider of that binary-only driver must keep pace with the mainstream kernel development.
Furthermore, in the case of stable-API but unstable behaviour, it is very difficult to get an almost-functioning binary-only driver fixed in any sort of reasonable timeframe, nor is it easy to debug instabilities that may arise through driver/kernel interaction.
The only real solution to these technical problems is to release source.
Let me put it this way - any company that releases binary-only drivers must needs become a slave to maintaining these drivers. If they aren't up to the task, then the result is poor or no support as the kernel mutates through successive versions.
Binary-only drivers SUCK from a purly technical perspective. That's not FUD, it's truth.
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
all that to get quake to run, give me a break geek boy, i think i'll stick to my lovely windows
Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
No.
I hunt and peck every game. I also invariably end up trying to hump a corner for 5 mintutes while someone pumps nails into my calves before getting bored and blowing my head clean off.
YOU BASTARDS!
I apologize. I was overlooking the connection charge. I have been hardwired for so long I tend to lose sight of that.
As far as the modem/CD choice goes, I would go with the modem right away, due to the possibility of using 'free ISPs'.
Sarge
yup. when q3a starts up it says DGA 2.0 enabled.
A better word: Links
He who knows not, and knows he knows not is a wise man
Here's what I run. Geforce, Nvidia 0.9-4, Xfree86 4.0.1 2.2.16 kernel w/ 2.4 USB patch so I can enable my Wingman Gaming mouse. Now, there are two basic ways I can run the Mouse in Quake3 Arena.. DGA on or off. With DGA off, the input is extremely smooth, however there is an ingrained, severe acceleration which causes you to do about 2 360 degree turns (even with MOUSE_ACCEL_TYPE OFF and xset m 0 0). Enabling DGA makes the sensitivity and degree of control feel just like windows, with one major exception: occasional choppy mouse performance. I can sit there holding down the right arrow key for hours and have it turn perfectly smooth, but when I move the mouse left to right and back again, it will occasionally stutter. I have this problem whether I use the PS/2 connector or USB. This problem occurs with either m_filter on or off (which most serious gamers leave off to give a more precise mouse movement, albeit slightly choppier). This leads me to beleive that the problem is a result of some flaw in DGA 2.0, as the normal "pointer grabbing" mouse input technique gives smooth input but lower response time.
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
I'm the author of the proggy Tom used as one of the benchmarks, the unix solar system simulation as he called :-). He didn't put a link so just in case you want to give it a try you can found it right here.
However, i have to tell you this a rather old program and maybe not the most suitable for benchmarking a new generation 3D cards (like the GeForce).
VA is currently working on an XFree4.0 driver for the new Radeon cards. It's being developed under contract from ATI themselves, it'll use the DRI, and it'll be open-source.
Check out the adjacent article on Tom's, about the Radeon. It performs slightly slower than the GeForce in 16-bit mode, and at lower resolutions, but at high-res 32-bit modes the Radeon edges out the GeForce.
The GeForce numbers may be impressive, but me, I'm going to wait until the Radeon driver is ready. And then I'm going to show ATI just how much I appreciate an open solution.
iSKUNK!
Linux has a long way to go to being truly viable as a gaming platform. Just becasue one (or a few) video cards have good bench marks, doesn't mean that it is viable, to be viable there needs to be GOOD support from all vendors, who specifically target Linux as a gaming platform like they do to windows, not just one or two companies.
> Most gamers don't have the latest hardware or the fastest as it is normally very expensive.We need excellent support from all hardware manufacturers that have produced video cards over the last year or two. So that all linux users can enjoy a great gaming experience.
This is just the tip of the iceburg, we also need better support for mice, sound cards etc, I mean there is support for these, but not to the extent that they are great for gaming
-
As cunning as a fox, which has just been appointed professor of cunning at Oxford University. http://www.kinlan.co
That comment may be insightful, but it is wrong. Windows 2000, in general, performs better at OpenGL benchmarks than Windows 98.
I'll ONLY buy a graph adapter if there's a Linux driver and it's Free Software. Even if the board itself is more expensive.
Suggestion: it would be nice if everybody who buys a non-NVidia board because of its non-opensourcedness sends a little e-mail message to NVidia stating the fact... preferrably with an attached photo of you holding the board.
The default is for resolutions smaller than the maximum to have a virtual desktop, but this can be turned off, either while running xf86config or editing /etc/X11/XF86Config. Unfortunately, GUI tools such as Xconfigurator (used by RedHat, maybe others) hide this option from you.
Personally, I think that virtual desktop space is evil, too, especially when I have 3 (or more!) perfectly good other desktops to use (and anyway, the machines I use run at 1024 x 768 or higher).
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
Well, having had very successful results with Quake III - after a few bumps, here's my 2 bits:
there is a wonderful setting for Q3A - it's nothing to do with X, nVidia's 3D drivers - or anything else.
in your ~/.q3a/baseq3/q3config.cfg file, there is a line:
seta sensitivity "xx"
change the sensitivity there. For some reason I can't change it from within Q3A, so don't try it that way. But, I've been using both a PS/2 Mouse (Which, amazingly enough, IS hot-pluggable in X and not in Win98- contrary to what some other comments say) and with a Karna Razer Boomslang in USB mode. The ps/2 mouse requires a sensitivity of something like 35 for me, and 2 on USB. Also, in my XF86Config file, I have the following line for my PS/2 Mouse (a LogiTech Mouseman)
Option "SampleRate" "200" - this is the highest sample rate supported by the PS/2 standard.
So, the big thing here is that the problem isn't so much a problem in Linux, or XF86 4.0.x - but in Q3A itself. Manually configuring the files solves the problem. Check it out.
-- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
Notice that in the article he mentioned that he compiled all of the drivers from source, and found that the easier route.
This should not only encourage all those rpm weenies out there to 'use the source, luke, but it also dispells any doubts about the quality of compilation that GCC performs these days.
I find it quite amusing that an immature open source driver for a free OS, compiled with a freeware compiler can get within a twat filament's distance of the performance of products with literally billions of $$ behind them.
THAT is a hoot!
Let's not forget also that GCC is the lingua franca of portable computing. GNU tools are probably the *first* add-ons any sun, hp or aix system receives after setup, so they can actually be *used*.
Brak: What's THAT?
Thundercleese: A light switch.. of TOTAL DEVASTATION!
In upcoming games that composite 20+ layers of textures, the cost of a blit is down in the noise.
Do you really see the game market using so many textures? Are you expecting these to be images or generated textures (generated from a series of functions)?
If this is the case, systems are going to need much wider and/or faster buses and more T-Ram on the video card. Also, I see where people are going to have to start watching texture sizes and color depths.
In my job, where we worry about texture sizes for rendering, this is always a place where we butt heads. I would love small, simple textures and the modelers want large, beautiful textures. I typicaly give in more than they do, because a sharp looking video is a sharp looking video, and the buyer doesn't care that the images took an extra 20% or so to render.
In the gaming world, though, the user wants real time... so they might not be as happy with the 20% performance hit.
Page flipping doesn't apply to windowed rendering unless you butcher the X server to render all 2D to multiple buffers and clip all 3D operations. I consider that a bad thing. Making the full screen rendering more distant from windowed rendering is also a bad thing.
This reminds me of the old hack for Mesa and the Voodoo chips. Is this the same thing? Where the full screen renders were fast but the windowed renders sucked because they were copying bits from one buffer to the other?
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
- word processor
What about Notepad? It even has a word wrap feature!
---------------
I would like to see benchmarks of the DRI drivers that are more crossplatform (work being done on FreeBSD for example)
Especially considering the fact that their site is running on FreeBSD.
The line must be drawn here. This far. No further.
maybe you haven't see wordpad (write.exe). it does fonts and formatting.
I don't agree with that... The quake3 benchmark for the Quadro 2 @ 640X480 is .1 fps faster in Linux.
I just wanted to mention this...
In fact, if Windows comes up without a mouse, it specifically states that "in order to connect a PS/2 mouse, you must restart your computer". Now, if you start up Windows with a PS/2 mouse, you MAY be able to hot-swap it OK; however, this may cause Windows to hang (I've had both occur).
Conversely, you can plug a PS/2 mouse into a running Linux system with no problems--at least, with every system/mouse combination I've seen (and I've seen a lot).
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
2.1.2 Limitations.
No Reverse Engineering. Customer may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the SOFTWARE, nor attempt in any other manner to obtain the source code.
Now correct me if I'm wrong (IANAL), but aren't there places in which you CAN'T forbid people from reverse engineering and therefore such license terms are void?
Now what happens if someone (in a perfectly legal fashion) decides to reverse-engineer this driver in one of these countries (in a clean room set-up of course) and publish the source? Will people from non-free countries (USA for instance*) be in legal trouble if they download/use/distribute such new, Free driver?
* I'll categorize the USA as such until the Supreme Court strikes down the DMCA. If you don't like it... tough. You don't have to read what I write.
I was looking at this just yesterday.
The benchmarks are interesting. While none of them showed linux with a higher framerate, They were never more than about 10% behind
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What about the "Time it takes to install" benchmark? New windows drivers are (usually) just a double-click away, while the XFree 4.0 installation is a nasty series of rpms, a kernel patch, and config file editing.
I hate it when I can't surf slashdot because my X is broken!
But it's worth it for the little quake icon on my gnome launcher.
The answer, of course, is not to play Quake with the mouse. Use the keyboard, like _I_ do.
;^)
(You'd also be helping lamers like myself who, because of our M@D K3YBO@RD SKI77Z, tend to get fragged every 10 seconds and have to resort to camping and suicide techniques (zapping the lightning bolt under water) to get a leg-up on the competition.)
You have not seen a full version of Win98 for $75 that was legit. Those are OEM cd's are only supposed to be sold with computers.
Win98 retail is around $189
Sigs are awesome huh?
First of all, why the hell was it moderated up to 3? This post is absolutely clueless.
What you mention (oh, and it's ctrl alt + / ctrl alt - NOT just alt + / alt -) does not change the resolution. The virtual desktop is still stuck at whatever your highest resolution setting in XF86Config is. Well, I guess technically you are right -- the screen resolution does change, but that it not nearly good enough. Even in XFree 4.0 there is NO way to change the resolution AND the virtual desktop size at the same time. There is NO way to change the color depth on the fly either.
___
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
Oh well, I guess I learned my lesson by trying to introduce some humor on Slashdot.
Flamebait? WTF. Overrated I can see, but whoever moderated this as flamebait needs to get a clue.
BilldaCat
What exactly do you think the script kiddies are??
Tom's reviews are always hard to read; mostly because of the bad grammer [sic] Grammar: G R A M M A R
I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation
Isn't it true that the eye can only see 20-24 fps anyways, which is how subliminal messages were done?
'+set in_dgamouse 0'. The fact that DGA mouse still sucks isn't Loki's fault. They have *no* control over it. Loki doesn't support DGA mouse - it breaks too many things to even be considered as a viable solution. Maybe if you actually did read the newsgroups, you would have figured that out for yourself.
Well, this is a good start. Perhaps now we can add some of the other things that gamers like - for example an ability to change resolution and depth when not running as root.
Maybe you were not aware. But I find X to have the simplest and lest obstrusive ways of changing desktop resoultion. If you configured your X correctly have have a number of set resoultions defined as usable on your videocard/monitor combo, then you should be able to change resoltion by just pressting the keys ALT -/+ . Plus to increase, minus to decrease.
Enjoy
--
Tom's reviews are always hard to read; mostly because of the bad grammer, spelling and logic, (like "....linux is securer than windows 2000...")
but, he is honest and doesn't hold back. that makes up for it.
Linux 3d is being handled very poorly. Several years ago, when Linux was struggling through issues with 2D, a lot of people wrote HOWTO's and webpages explaining how to cobble things together. XFree was honest about what did (and did not) work.
But now, anyone who visits the 3dfx newsgroups or the XFree site, then attempts to get their card working in 3d mode, will notice two things:
1) There are no HOWTO's or webpages dedicated to your card. When you ask a simple question, you will immediately be bombarded by three morons who say "why didn't you read through the last 712 messages! everything you need is there!"
2) XFree 4.0.1 documentation claims all sorts of miracles. But the truth is, the product does very little that is new unless you are willing to read the the 712 aforementioned messages and figure out how to disregard the 213 of then that are now outdated or innaccurate.
Many cards require a CVS download and rebuild of everything, plus a 2.3 series kernel, and many files from other sites. After you build everything and and apply all the hacks, don't be suprised if the your system locks after 20 seconds or so, like mine did.
Hate to say it, but XFree is really going out on a limb by calling this beast a "3D enabled release". It's a immature, undocumented 3D release being supported by a bunch of monkeys who refuse to properly document the 3D workarounds. The later 3.X releases were better documented, both by XFree and the card vendors, and more reliable in 3D mode.
The 2D side of 4.0.1 is stable, and the new server configuration stuff is wonderful. But this is not a quality 3D release by any means.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
am I the only one still playing games with keyboard?
You can install the "personal web server" which is a cut down version of IIS4. Only problem is that when more than 3 or so connections occur, anything over and above get an error message saying that the web server isnt licensed for more connections, try again later =]
Of course people could break their EULA and try Apache for Win32.
Lars -
Absolutely. Text based games are the way to go. In fact, I recenty spent $179.99 on a BSD Star Trek accelerator. Quite an investment, but you should see how fast it goes. Especially if I reduce the res to 40 columns. And Hangman is incredible. Even some of the serious apps in /usr/games/bin like morse have increased their speed considerably.
This looks like a troll, but maybe not...
Oh, so sorry to infringe on your pristine OS. It is a terrible tragedy that some of us are trying to make a viable alternative to MS Windows and are using Linux to do it, I know. Hey, if I agree not to play games will you let me into your club? What? I'm not 3l33t enuff?
Sigs are awesome huh?
I would like to see benchmarks of the DRI drivers that are more crossplatform (work being done on FreeBSD for example) as well as open and supported by vendors like ATI,Matrox, and 3dfx.
I don't care how many articles are written about how great gaming on linux is, it is still _unplayable_ without decent mouse support. I have the latest drivers from nvidia that work with xfree 4.0.1. I've tried everything from Option SampleRate to tuneps2.
In short, NOTHING WORKS. the response in Q3A is slow and jerky, unless you are standing stock still. If you turn m_filter off in windows, the mouse is still smooth because the ps/2 rate acn be cranked so high. In linux with m_filter off, it is sucky sucky sucky.
Somebody has to get Loki and XFree in a room together and FIX THIS. Check the newsgroups. check slashdot. _everyone_ complains about this, but nothing gets done. I'm tired loki saying "oh, we support DGA, it should work," and XFree saying, "we fixed it in 4.0.1." Can somebody _please_ address this problem, once and for all?
</rant> sorry.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
You can't be serious that playing a game screwing over everything else is a feature. Microsoft really can't grasp the idea that someone might want to do more than one thing on their machine, can they?
Btw, how do you make the whole OS dlls that don't switch to ring 0 and stay secure? Ring 0 is there for a reason. I'm curious how you put nearly everything outside of ring 0 and keep the same functionality.
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
This would be a troll, if this guy were lying. Unfortunately for the Linux crowd, he's right. NT4 doesn't get 30% better fps, but it is significantly faster than Win9x.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The reason 60fps is better than 30fps
is that we're talking average here.
With 30fps the minimum could end up being
18 fps (which is noticable), while with
60 fps the minimum might be around 40 fps.
If you had a game which held 30fps AT ALL TIMES,
it would be just as good as 60fps ALL THE TIME.
The NVIDIA Linux driver is faster than it looks from some of the benchmarks. The thing he mentioned, the page-flipping vs. blitting issue, seems to account for most of the performance difference between linux and Win98. I say this, because under the low-res Solar System tests, Win98 and Linux perform almost equally. Tom attributes this to CPU limitations, but the GeForce cards are geometry accelerators, so CPU limitations really shouldn't be an issue here. If the NVIDIA Linux driver really were slower, than transforms would be slower as well, and thus the Solar System score would be lower. Same thing for the low res Quake III tests.
That brings me to a question. Why doesn't the NVIDIA Linux driver implement page flipping. Page-flipping is a basic necessity (nay, a innate right!) for game developers. I seriously doubt X doesn't allow access to page flipping in full screen mode... does it? Also, I just thought of something. Does X allow access to page-flipped overlays. That might allow Quake to use page-flipping in window'ed modes. (Which would be pretty cool.)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Hmm, I'm not so sure about that *coughUCITAcough*
The agreement reads, in part:
2.1.2 Limitations.
No Reverse Engineering. Customer may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the SOFTWARE, nor attempt in any other manner to obtain the source code.
Interesting, eh?
Unfortunatly the Nvidia drivers are entirely closed source. They take away your freedom to have a stable system by making kernel debugging impossible after they have been loaded.
Now we sound like MS: It's not us, it's the third-party driver. Run in VGA mode and call back if you have problems. (see Alan's rants on l-k)
Nvidia then says, it's not us.. It's the kernel. Bug them. No.. You can't have the source to fix it yourself.
Not that one company is getting away with it, I'm sure the rest will follow.
Soon I won't be able to run modern 3d hardware without this issue.
Thanks a lot gamers. If you wanted propritary and unstable you should have stayed with windows.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Linux didn't used to be about money ... While many people in the Linux community, including myself, didn't welcome RedHat's IPO, it shows how valuable Linux has become
Why, oh why, do people always think that open-source or software liber implies that nobody can make money off of it? Contrary to many peoples' opinions, RMS does not mind if you make money. Why is it bad that RedHat went IPO? What can they possibly do to the community? The very nature of the GPL is that no one person can run off with the code. There is no chance that they would make the kernel non-free or anything like that, like many people were claiming would happen. Instead, what has happened to the free software community as a result of the IPO?
They've hired programmers to work on the kernel
They've hired programmers to work on GNOME
They've helped bring the ideas of the open-source community to the masses.
The last is the most important of all. Hiring programmers has been a great help to ensuring the success of critical parts of the GNU/Linux system, but that by itself would have meant very little without their support of the free software community. Without freedom, it would have just been another software project. Instead, their help of the GNOME project as well as the kernel has helped prepare the platform for their most important aid to our community. That aid was in spreading our ideas to the world. Yes, they are taking more of an open-source pragmatist approach as opposed to the free software idealistic approach. But even exposure to the former will help, and eventually some of the users will open their minds towards the ethics of free software, not just the business of open-source.
Sorry if this turned out to be a rant.
--
Friends don't let friends misuse the subjunctive.