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Review of VMWare Competitor
nontrivial writes "Linux Medical News has a decent review of Win4Lin, a MS Windows emulator. The article and submissions also touch on other solutions for having to run Windows applications. I use Win4Lin daily, and I must say it is rather spooky how well it works. The review doesn't spell it out, but Win4Lin 2.0 does include sound and serial and parallel support, and so far I've had no problems with the beta. It runs Windows in a SDI type interface, comes with DOS emulation, and can be run in many odd resolutions if you don't like running it in it's own virtual console. The bad news is that it technically requires a licensed copy of Windows (95, 98, etc, not NT), it is intended for business applications (so no DirectX support for example), and only TCP/IP networking is supported within the emulation. But overall it's stable (no more crashes than MS causes, and it doesn't take the whole box down when you see blue), it's fast (native speed), and it's cheap ($35). IMHO it's the best transition software I've used."
actually - i think miracles are proprietary.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
MS Networking runs (on Win95/98) over NetBIOS which can be encapsulated in NetBEUI, IPX/SPX, and..... TCP/IP!
Now, it may not support MS Networking, but it *SHOULD* if it truely supports TCP/IP as the protocol.
--
Ben Kosse
--
Ben Kosse
Remember Ed Curry!
You just described 'even crappier terminal services' there, dude.
Also, one would want to review the license of Win4Lin and verify that it's legal for multiple users to run it on a server. It's most certainly not legal for multiple users to run sessions in Office, or many other Windows packages concurrently.
I never said it didn't install. It just crashed repeatedly when I tried running the thing.
I found it to be more hassle than I was prepared to spend, given that I keep a dedicated Windows machine on my home network anyway.
*shrug*
The "explaination" /is/ terrible, isn't it?
Here is how I use it:
I setup a heterogeneous 3-tiered system at a client's office. Linux runs the app-server, Postgresql, etc on a raid 5 box. All the workstations are Win95, NT, etc. I wrote the server software on the Linux box and the client software on the Windows boxes. How do I support all this stuff? On my laptop with VMWare.
I have a Dell Inspiron 7500 w/192 MB running Mandrake. I have the same app-server, Postgresql, etc. running on it as runs on the raid 5 server. I have Win98 running on VMWare and all the client software running on it. I can develop, debug, and test right on the laptop. The only change I have to make when I deploy is to change the server IP number to the real server (which I keep in a text config file) - *everything* else is the same.
If you have a similar situation, then VMWare is the killer app for Linux. I highly recommend it.
-tim
I can't remember what it's called - I'll look it up on Friday night and post it as a reply to this comment. It was on the cover of last month's PCPlus magazine in the UK. I can't find it on their web site.
Here is what I used to do:
Setup a lab:
- 1 win95 box with 2.x browsers
- 1 win95 box with 3.x browsers
- 1 win98 box with 4.x browsers
- 1 winnt box with 4.x browsers
- 1 win98 box with 5.x browsers
- 1 winnt box with 5.x browsers
- 1 mac with 3.x browsers
- 1 mac with 4.x browsers
- 1 mac with 5.x browsers
- 1 *nix box with 3.x and 4.x browsers
Here is what I have now:- 1 box with each one of those systems in vmware session.
- 1 mac with 3.x browsers
- 1 mac with 4.x browsers
- 1 mac with 5.x browsers
The virtual display drivers in vmware are not perfect. But I only have to maintain 8 (4 test, 2 servers, and 2 development machines), instead of 14 (10 test, 2 servers 2 development machines).Now If I could only emulate macs...
* "Uncle this droid is malfunctioning" -- Luke Skywalker
What is this utility, and where can I get it?
Here it is: href="http://uranus.it.swin.edu.au/~jn/linu x/
1) Testing web interfaces in various browsers for compatibility.
2) Tools like Rational Rose 2000 and ERwin only run under Windows at this point.
3) Test runtime environments for software installation.
Incidentally, for one of the posters above, HP makes an Outlook-compatible mail reader for Unix OSes.
Regards,
Regards,
-scott
It does work on Slack (just create the whole /etc/rc.d/rc0.d...rc6.d folder hierarchy, then install) - but I'm very pissed off by their explanation: "it's not a supported distribution because of its unusual directory layout". Huh? I say all of the other distros have a weird layout...
I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
If the games are that important, dual boot for them, but let's let VMWare do it's job updating to support business apps better/faster.
Not to mention the whole OS/2 mess - the current status being that vmware actively checks for OS/2 and refuses to run it.
I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
you have to install a patch to your current kernel.
am i the only one that's a little nervous about installing a kernel update from a third party vendor (who's software i'm only trying to EVALUATE)
and so i go back to my nightly prayers..."Yeah, though i walk through the valey of the shadow of death, i fear no company from redmond, for i knoweth Sierra will developeth linux clients for upcoming games" cough *Counter-Strike* cough. (wine just ain't cuttin' it.)
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
Lotus Notes
I guess we were many people here expecting this kind of software to get rid of windows.
(BTW, these 2 words could have also been Microsoft Exchange).
Of course, we might have to troubleshoot some kernel stuff at all but the fact its openness makes it possible is also the reason why we love Linux, no ? The future is bright.
--
Trolling using another account since 2005.
Since it doesn't do a virtual machine, it simply doesn't compare. I use VMware to test out new server configurations, different OSs (Netware, FreeBSD, NT 4) etc. Being able to keep a whole virtual hard disk in a file means I can throw away a bolluxed system and return to an earlier version. The fact that VMware can save the changes made to a disk during a session then then merge or discard them at the end gives me that miracle - a Windows installation that never fscks itself. I just power up the Windows session, do what I need then turn it straight off without shutting down, knowing that all the crap Windows wrote to the registry and the disk is evaporating. Very useful, since a lot of my day is spent in User Support.
Oh, I can think of some reasons: For one, the company I work for uses Outlook + Exchange for groupware. So everyone is required to use these programs. However, I'm a Linux/FreeBSD sysadmin, so I run Linux on my desktop, with VMWare running so I can use Outlook. Another reason: when installing new software on our servers (I work for an ISP), we want to be absolutely sure that we don't run into any unexpected problems. Therefore we usually test upgrades and patches on a virtual machine in VMWare. A third reason: for developers of distributions like Debian, it is a nice way to test the new boot floppies and installation program, without having to reinstall your machine after you're done or when you find out that it did not work.
True... although you need a really fast machine with a lot of memory if you want to run PhotoShop in VMWare. (or a lot of patience of course).
Exactly the point. We are using VMware to do port of application on 4 platforms and test them on various Linux distributions, BSD's, etc. Also, to test new potentially harmful package, you just clone your VMwared redhat istallation, try it, if it breaks something you don't even need backups. In fact, we almost never run windows on our VMware installs, most of the time it's various BSDs and Linuxes and occasionally Solaris.
VMware is not just windows emulator. It's very convenient tool to run multiple OSes on signle hardware, and I must note it does it really well.
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
I think it can - I know Windows isn't network aware [unless you're talking Terminal Server] but there's no reason you couldn't build these capabilities on screen - its not perfect, but it should be OK.
VNC can pole the screen and send updates of the active Window [or other components] down the wire. I'm proposing a similar system, but with some small modifications.
Hmm... say we scroll a page of graphics in a maximised window. That means almost all of a, say, 1024x768x32bit screen is changing. That's 3MB per screenful. Lets say we have a 10Mbit network. That means that we get a screen update about every 2 seconds if we saturate the network. Maybe 2 frames/second with good compression (lots of CPU time).
A bit impractical?
It seems you haven't used remote display technologies particularly feasibe. There's a whole stack of protocols designed to reduce that screen display to shapes and text. It's entirely worksable to surf the web from a remote machine over a 10Mb link. I know this because I did it for half a year.
Remote screen display technologies don't sent compressed images, they sent shapes, text, and bitmaps where appropriate. What will travel down the wire is instructions to draw vector rectangles, compressed bitmaps, and perhaps bevels and widgets if you're protocol got brains.
Over a 10Mb link veiwing web pages in VNC is quite reasonable [especially with the hextile modification for smarter compression].
Currently, vmware actively checks at startup for OS/2 and refuses to run it if found as guest.
I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
It's one thing to be against software patents. I am on the grounds that the examiners have proven repeatedly that they have no idea of what is obvious, what is standard useage, etc. This doesn't mean I don't think anything deserves protection. It means I consider the government incompetent (assuming that they intend to protect valid inventions), and that the cost of allowing them to continue is higher than the cost of repealing the provision.
So: What has VMWare patented? Was it obvious? Was it standard usage? (How does it differ from an interpreter?) etc. Without knowing that, I have no basis for judging whether or not I think that they have no right to a patent. And I have neither researched it, nor heard anyone saying that they didn't deserve it (except on "No Software Patents!" grounds).
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Does Atheos boot in VMWare now? The last time I checked, it wouldn't - it became stuck at the yellow startup screen.
I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
I clicked on the link in the story above, and it took a second, so I went to get a glass of water. When I got back, I had warped into some alternate universe slashdot.
It took me a while to realize THAT WAS the link, and they were just using slashcode. Oh well, it was trippy while it lasted.
I may well check this out, since, VMware don't support my distibutions of choice (Slackware) and it didn't work anyway.
Now If I could only emulate macs...
You can, to a certain extent (68k machines only, and only up to OS 8.1): check Basilisk II. Should do the trick for 3rd and 4th generation browsers.
I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
Comparing Win4Lin with VMWare is not quite fair: Win4Lin is a Windows emulator, while VMWare emulates an i386. Thus, VMWare is a much more powerful tool than Win4Lin, since VMWare can do more that run Windows applications: it runs Windows itself, or any other OS which runs on an i386.
While I'm not ready to rush out and install the software as I rarely use VMware these days, I have to say that the ability to toggle between a Linux and Win4Lin desktop in full-screen mode does sound tempting... the claim of lower resource consumption sounds nice too.
...and kudos to LMN for a clean implementation of SlashCode!
I wonder when someone's gonna come out with some form of DirectX support in one of these Windows Emulators/Virtual Machines. It might not be able to cut it for a lot of 3d games, but I'm sure there are many games that don't tax the system nearly as much like The Sims, Star Craft, other games. Now that XFree86 4.0 is supporting 3d better it might even be possible to get decent 3d support in the virtual machine enabling older 3d games like Everquest, Half Life, etc. Someone who wants the extreme speed would be willing to reboot, but some of us wouldn't mind being able to grab a quick game whenever the temptation hit us, and not have to worry about things like other users or currently running applications.
treke
Wouldn't it make a bit more sense to run a Mac/68k emulator directly from within Linux?
It seems like Win4Lin is more a competitor for WINE than VMWare, in that it interacts with windows software at a much higher level. Whilst details are sketchy, the site gives the impression that it doesnt emulate the full hardware.
For instance, the line:
The Win4Lin software package consists of a set of server processes, kernel hooks and drivers. These facilities combine to create a tightly integrated environment between Linux and Windows.
gives the impression that it preprocesses the running software to allow it to run.
In fact the key difference between Win4Lin and MAME is that it uses a real copy of Windows to provide the libraries and bugs.
The main disadvantage of Win4Lin compared to VMWare seems to be that it is not a real virtual machine, which makes it impossible to run anything else than Windows. Since VMWare is capable or running Linux on Linux, it can be used for kernel development and other dangerous stuff. It can also run other OS's such as Solaris or OS2.
I also wonder if the use of Win4Lin doesn't make your system vulnerable to Windows viruses (such as macro viruses in Word): since these applications now have access to your Linux file systems, they can easily destroy your data.
Imagine you need to port your product to all platforms running on i386 and test it. You should test on some 10 Linuxes (including 2-years old stock of all major distributions), on all BSDs, on Solaris x86. How many workstations you need to do this simultaneously? How convenient is to reboot them each time, to administrate them, etc.? How many time you waste on all those reboots? VMware is not for "Windows on Linux", it's for "many OSes on one hardware". And since current hardware reached the level that you can do this (if you don't intend to play Quake, just run some make's and gcc's), it's very good we have a product that does it.
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Hmmm, interesting... If you put Win4Lin on a Linux server and one of those X servers for Windows onto networked Windows workstations, you could use the Linux server to serve up Windows applications to the Windows workstations, no crappy Terminal Services needed.
If this just involves yourself I can see your point. But if this is the case for more, say 5 and up, I would consider it a waste of money.
Win4Lin is not like Vmware!
Vmware is its own little virtual computer, you can install windows on it, get pissed, install BSD, format, then install BEOS, and VMware would never know the difference, because its its own little computer complete with a Bios and everything!
Win4Lin is like Wine, you can run singular applications like word or Excel, or IE.
Here is a link that might help people sort it out
Win4Lin Whitepaper
-
-
-
Personally I'm sick and tired of ignorant users complaining about lack of DirectX/3D support in Linux. Why? Because even Microsoft has issues with DirectX/3D support in NT/2000. In Windows NT/2000, the game must be mainly OpenGL-based or, in the case of 2000, use the newer DirectX versions that are suppored. If Microsoft cannot even get it's own products to work with its own, alternate, lesser-used OS, how the freak do you think Linux will???
You see, DirectX was originally little more than a set of function wrappers to direct hardware and, gulp, DOS-like memory mapped I/O! Hence, the problem with NT. By DirectX 6, Microsoft finally realized that an API for unprotected memory and hardware access was a BAD idea and finally started migrating DirectX to a protected state.
Still, implementation in Windows 2000 is far from perfect, but I'm sure DirectX 8 will improve on a lot things. Since Microsoft isn't licensing it's DirectX code, I seriously doubt anyone will be able to product a hardware-accelerated DirectX implementation very soon. And even if they managed to reverse engineer some of it, it would be hard to keep up with Microsoft's constant changes.
So quit asking for the impossible! Lobby software vendors to support DRI. If anything, I'd made the selling point that UNIX vendors don't change half the function names and parameters every freak'n version release! [ God that pisses me off Microsoft! ]
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
Actually I was planning to try Atheos this weekend. I assumed it would work - but graphics support is a bit dodgy on non-supported platforms, so I can believe it doesn't. It is a shame as Atheos warns that the native FS is beta and using it might trash your drive. A virtual environment is definately the way to try something like that out. Anyone know if it works in Bochs?
What we really need is a general-purpose X86 processor emulator for Linux; Something I can compile on an Alpha box and then load *any* X86-based system into it and expect it to run.
Dog is my co-pilot.
If you're talking about replacing Windows PCs, then the cost of Windows is effectively free, since you've already got the license you were using on the PC itself before it became a Linux desktop... If you're talking about legacy apps, it's a sure bet you've got at least a few already-paid-for copies of Windows lying about...
Win4Lin retails at $35.
VMWare retails for $300.
If I'm only using it for casual Office use and other such sundries (solitaire), then the choice is already made for me.
--------- Beware the dragon, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
The two products are in no way comparable.
A well-crafted lie appears unquestionable - Dama Mahaleo
Run it inside vmware...? (I'll get me coat)
--
W.A.S.T.E.
I guess some people still need to run bl0ated windows software for some reason, but VMWare lets you do a whole lot more than that. As for your point about developing in a simulated environment, yes you probably wouldn't want to release code that you never ran on a real machine, but in some instances VMWare just saves a lot of time -- you don't lose your editor when your machine goes down (happened a lot to me in Visual Dev.) and you don't have to keep jumping from keyboard to keyboard when writing a network application in an environment where ssh is not an option.
This has not been a paid endoresement, I just really like this program.
I just actually read that page a Linked to, and I was wrong!
Win4Lin IS like a virtual machine, it has its own bios and everything, I just didn't read far enough down the page,
Please forgive me
p.s Its Microsofts 25th Anniversary, everyone,
BOO BOO BOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But how can you be sure that it works if you rely on a virtual environment over the real thing? When your virtual environment has a bug somewhere there is a change you mistake it for a bug in your software. Then what? Ease of use isn't everything. Suppose you were faced with the situation I just mentioned; then it would take you a tremendous amount of time finding & solving your problem(s) while you could have prevented this when using the real thing.
VNC Server = "Universal Solution"?
In addition to remote display via X to other UNIX/X clients, I suppose you could run multiple VNC servers on the Linux with this program running under some of them -- and pump it to other, non-Windows platforms with a VNC viewer but no X support (e.g., Mac, Win3.x, VMS, DOS, etc...). Hmmm, anyone care to try it?
~$150/copy of Windows vs. ~$X/CAL for NT Termainl Server / Citrix WinFrame?
Now when it comes to "cost effectiveness", if you're paying ~$150 per user/session, isn't that a heck of a lot more than CAL (client access licenses) for NT Terminal Server or Citrix WinFrame? Let's say you could license Windows on a "concurrent basis", would it not still be more expensive? Heck, Microsoft might license Windows exactly for virtual machines at a much higher price for that reason.
Illegitimate use of Windows 9x?
So at what point does Microsoft limit your use of their Windows 9x products with their EULA? Could they not outlaw you from using it in such a manner, or say your "right-to-use" (RTU) license doesn't cover it??? They could claim their is "no way to enforce proper licensure because you can run multiple copies". Heck, they might even sue Telos (even though their product doesn't have anything to do with such "misuse" -- although that didn't stop the Napster verdict ;-). I'd say they'd do any or all of this if it gave their NT Terminal Server some "competition".
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
Exchange is more than e-mail. As I said, we use groupware a *lot*: shared calenders, public folders for files and messages, etc. Pop3 isn't enough then.
Win4Lin is not like Vmware! Vmware is its own little virtual computer, you can install windows on it....Win4Lin is like Wine, you can run singular applications like word or Excel, or IE
From the whitepaper: Win4Lin delivers Windows application support by providing a virtual machine environment to execute native Windows 95/98. Because Windows is actually running on the system, application support is very comprehensive. Most applications will simply install and perform as expected
Pax,
White Rabbit +++ Divide by Cucumber Error ++
free experimental electronic music netlabel at www.viablehybrid.com
Pax,
White Rabbit +++ Divide by Cucumber Error ++
free experimental electronic music netlabel at www.viablehybrid.com
Ive seen a few comments already about Win4Lin being unlike VMWare because its not a Virtual Machine. If people would care to read the whitepaper, then think before they post their little replies they'd find out that
It IS a virtual machine
It requires a copy of 95 or 98 to run Windows apps
It has its own BIOS
It provides a virtual hardware profile
In other words, its pretty damn similar to the way VMWare is set up.
Pax,
White Rabbit +++ Divide by Cucumber Error ++
free experimental electronic music netlabel at www.viablehybrid.com
hehe you're an idiot
.oO0Oo.
i expect you to be quickly fired too
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Do you have ANY idea how many companies are running on old COBOL programs? Do you have any idea how many companies are still using MSDOS accounting applications?
Even if all of Windows were to "become LEGACY software" today, that would just mean that we would only have to deal with it for another 20-30 years at least. Probably more.
To email, do the obvious.
Tell ya what, let's ignore this until they get their act together and turn their patches into loadable modules. It's not THAT difficult to do. I'm not dropping back to a 2.2.x kernel just to evaluate some software. (And all the hooks they need are in the kernel already dammit! dosemu got them there years ago. They need all this "because they can")
--Dan
Good point! Didn't look at it that way.
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
But for something like VMWARE to support DirectX for 3d is not anywhere near as difficult as you would like to make out.
VMWare emulates at hardware level. That means that what they have to emulate is something like a TNT or Voodoo chipset.
That way you install Win98 on your vmware machine and it promptly detects that you have a TNT2, and starts sending polygon data to it - which linux's OpenGL then renders.
That still requires that DirectX works in the MS os too tho.
I use VMware for switching to Linux for compiling simple C programs, and for looking up the C documentation and other docus. This pretty much removes the need to buy a C compiler, and using Linux you get compilers for other languages too. I'm not sure this would work for real programming but I guess you could set up a linux to win crosscompiler following Mumit Khans instructions, add in samba file sharing between your vm'ed linux and the win2z, and Presto! you are set up.
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
Damn, what a freak! Hopefully this will help the feds to hunt him down. You do have IP logs, don't you..? =)
simple one this
:)
.oO0Oo.
Internet Explorer
All the best tools for web site creation are OSS.
But you need to test it on IE before release.
Plus Flash tools I expect (not my area but enough people round here live inside Flash)
anyone with some sense would choose the right product for the right job. I know I would
Dual/triple booting is a pain and something such as this means I don't have to.
I've not tried it yet but it means I should be able to happily run plan9 on my desktop and use VNC to attach to the Linux server from where I can run Win4Lin and run IE and friends.
Heck I don't even have to use my own CPU cycles.
This product has almost made my day. Just got to persuade someone here to risk $35 on it. (and seeing as I refused Photoshop and use Gimp I just saved the suits $400 so it's payback time
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I agree that the ideal would be for it to be a)OSS or b)non-root, but if both of the above are non-optional, then consider the alternative: dual boot to windows, and any windows app can directly access the hardware and fandango on your linux partition if it wants to. There's a utility for Windows that allows you to browse an ex2fs partition and copy files to and from it.
is this a VMWare competitor? Just because Linux users use VMWare to run windows?
Does Win4Lin let you install other OS's on it? run multiple concurrent VMs?
Because we
1) Like to use linux as a platform but
2) Are developing softwar for Windows because that's what we get paid to do?
and
3) because certain groupware packages are needed in some corporate environments that only work on windows? (outlook)
Just my $.02
Back in the days when I was a happy OS/2 Warp user, I thought it was a great thing that you could run Windows 3.1 applications while running Warp...you could buy Warp with a Windows license or install Windows yourself if you already owned it, and launch Windows as a separate Warp application. The problem was, the fact that you could run Windows applications totally removed any incentive for developers to port those apps to the Warp environment, so they never were ported. Why port an app to OS/2 if you aknow they can already run it as a Windows application ? Note, this was at a time when there were quite a few OS/2 users and it might well have made business sense to port to OS/2 EVEN IF OS/2 COULD NOT RUN WINDOWS APPS. So Warp users were stuck with running Windows applications IN Windows (with its attendant instabilities within the Windows session), as well as paying for a Windows license. Meanwhile, Windows users who wanted to run Windows applications but MIGHT have been interested in running Warp really had no reason to do so. So if you wanted to run an application that ran under Windows, there was never going to be a compelling reason to move to OS/2, since it would never be ported to the OS/2 environment. My point is, if users are able to run Windows apps within Linux, why would we ever expect developers to provide us with Linux native versions of those apps ? The availablity of a good Windows emulator can only retard Linux's viability as a desktop OS for the masses in the long run.
Yes its cool and fun, but do we realy need this? In this day and age where you can get a computer for less than 500$ and companys are THROWING AWAY 100-200mhz PC's after upgrades, why bother with the hasle?? get another PC, load windows and cary on. No compatibility issues, probly less crashes..
"But I cant afford another computer..waaa....
GET A JOB!
I don't have any room..
If you have enough room to sleep and eat, you have enough room.
I have better things to spend the harddrive space on.
Dirty Pirate Hooker
Uh, from the standpoint of someone who merely wants to run Windoze apps under Linux, they might as well be the same. :^)
NO, NO, NO Win4Lin is NOT "like" Wine! Wine provides an API to run Win16/32 apps on top of, while Win4Lin provides a layer to run Windows on. The reason for the kernel modifications, BTW, are probably for running in protected mode (which is why Dosemu can't run Win95/98/ME.)
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
> I could be completly wronge here, but if it
:^) I'm guessing this has to do with their hardware virtualisation, and the way it's implemented. I haven't managed to crash it yet.
;^)
>does indeed use MS code, and runs in kernel
>space, i can't imagine this setup being very
>stable.
Yeah, but if you want to be able to actually run Windows under Linux, you need Ring 0--which means hooking into the kernel.
And yes, I have Win4Lin and yes, it's rock solid.
>Another point to make is that this is a comercial >product. (way) not GPL.
Boo-hoo. I assume you're reading this comment under either Lynx, W3M or Emacs, because you sure as hell can't be using Netscape under X11R6, since neither of those are GPLed.
If you don't like the fact that it's GPLed, why not help with either plex86 or help get Dosemu to work in protected mode? Warning--both projects will probably end up hooking into the kernel, so they won't be stable at all.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
VMs can be created on Linux or NT, some rumor of BSD folks using it -- though I'm not certian.
:-)
I am running VMware under FreeBSD 4.1. Despite some weirdness (no full screen in XF86 4.0.1 because there is no DGA)(no bridged networking) it works just fine. A bit slow it seems, but I only have 128 MB of RAM. I think I should go out and try a copy of Win4Lin on my box. Err.. *ahem* Win4BSD
but He was busy writing Linux.
Some comments at LMN regarding seamless integration have inspired me a little...
As WindowBlinds, Litestep, etc. prove, it's entirely possible to replace the default explorer.exe shell with a another windows manager / desktop environment [its just another setting in win.ini].
So creeate a Win32 shell which actually sends the Windowing information down the wire [you pick the format - but VNC might be an option] to another machine. Make a client on the other machine [for this exercise, the Linux host] which displays the Windowed apps.
There. Seamless inetgration with your Linux desktop.
You'd want to have explorer.exe as an option at boot time in case of network issues.
So what VMware does
Is patented. Which is why this program uses sort of a cross between Wine and VMWare.
<O
( \
XGNOME vs. KDE: the game!
Will I retire or break 10K?
Well, at Ford Motor Company, out of about 200,000 desktops, the majority are either Windows 95 or 98. Windows NT is used for development, not for desktops that are mainly Word and Outlook terminals. However, the next major iteration of the "Global Client" (our term for the packaging of the OS and apps for the Ford end user) will be based on Windows 2000. We've already done beta field tests and will begin rolling it out production at the very beginning of next year.
I work at the shop that tests and packages all desktop software for Ford.
Your statement that "Most businesses haven't run Win 95/98 on the desktop in years," seems fallacious, although I only have my experience at Ford as evidence.
I downloaded it and was running through the README, and it looks like it wants to replace your kernel....
Personally, I'm not going to install kernels handed out by software publishers, or there would be no point in building your own.
I also wonder if the use of Win4Lin doesn't make your system vulnerable to Windows viruses (such as macro viruses in Word): since these applications now have access to your Linux file systems, they can easily destroy your data.
Only if it runs as root. The article over on LMN (which is running squishdot, a slash clone for zope) doesn't say one way or the other.
<O
( \
XGNOME vs. KDE: the game!
Will I retire or break 10K?
Agreed, Exchange is *far* beyond pop3 email. We use it to register all of our dem osoftware downloaders, and their information from the forms they fill out becomes a contact within a public folder accessible to all of the salespeople.
:]
Outlook is the main reason that I need a windows environment available, but we also have some MS DNS servers, an IIS server and all of our hosted sites are connected to MS SQL. It's nice to be able to just fire up a Windows session to use the management tools.
As the administrator for a w2k network, it's very nice to not have to use it myself
Hi!
You seem interested in a real use for VMWARE ?
I give you one: You can use it for testing the infection of various polimorph viruses, to get a chance at knowing what are they doing and what is the common point in these viruses. Some of them are pretty tough to "crack" up....
It's a great tool for this stuff. Get it?
nuff said...
Just another coder...
It is a good old Windows emulator that requires Windows to run. So it is $35 plus whatever it costs to to buy Windows 9X unless you are lucky enough to have Windows 9X bundled with your PC when you bought it. :) Yeah you heard me, that CD you've been using as a drink coaster because you reformatted your hard drive and installed Linux.
Now my question is, what if you decided to partition your hard drive to boot both Linux and Windows 9X? Running Windows applications is just one reboot away. What if you don't need to run both at the same time?
Also does the $35 program allow you to run Windows ME as well, or just Windows 95 and 98?
It's neat to see it... even if it's closed source... in fact, I couldn't care less if it was or not.. however...
1) Won't work on SMP systems.
2) No protocols besides TCP/IP (can deal with this.. but...)
3) Lots of 'features' are listed for the v2.0, which is not yet available.
When it comes of age, and sound works, networking has raw access to ethernet for other protocols, and I can use it on my smp system (yes, I know that 9x won't do smp, that's fine).... then I'm game.
If you would only use VMWare to emulate win95 or win98 then this alternative would seem to offer a better solution. Because it works differently, it takes up much less memory.
However, I use VMWare for testing new Linux, BSD or NT setups, or for playing with BeOS, Atheos, QNX or whatever else is around. You cannot do these things with Win4Lin as it is designed just to give a windows replacement.
I am a conslutant for a company that needs to support clients using Win95, Win98, NT4, Win2000, and (soon) WinMe.
I, OTOH, prefer to use Linux. The laptop machine my company gave me, therefore, has VMs with all of the required OSen on, so that when I'm at a customer site, I can use my laptop as a similar environment to whatever *they* are using, whilst still having access to all of my tools.
Additionally, since we occasionally get a customer with a *really* bizarre setup, I can create a new VM to duplicate it, do my work for them in it, and then blow it away, knowing that I didn't have to fsck up the settings on my machine, just to cater to their strangeness.
VMware is lovely for that sort of thing.
I *invented* pants!
ftp://ftp.trelos.com/pub/
My poetry site welcomes the unusual.
One of the other not so obvious features of
Win4Lin, is that it runs REALLY well over Remote X. (Ie to Thin Client Terminals) And with Win4Lin 2 having multi-user functionality, you can run a nice little enterprise server for Thin clients, where you deliver say StarOffice for their main Office functionality, peppered with any legacy apps they need using Win4Lin. I have a few sites using something similar to this now. It really changes the "Desktop" option from being "Forget it" to.. "Hey.. we could do that" for most organisations. And once were on the desktop.. it makes it MUCH easier to migrate away thoes old Legacy apps.. and eventually not have win4lin at all!..
Anthony
The bad news is that it technically requires a
licensed copy of Windows
What did you expect for $35 - a re-write of Windows?
Even if that were feasible I would still prefer a product that lets me run a standard Microsoft copy of Windows over Linux (or whatever): that way I can be sure that I'm developing in an environment which is compatible with that of the eventual users of programs I write.
Uh, thank you for ringing in. It is not my decision that they use w2k, it was a voted-upon issue, and management does not yet trust linux on the workstations, generally due to the IDE choices of the developers.
/. that it's always refreshing to see.
I always have a w2k/nt4 box at my desk, as well as a linux box. Often I have all 3.
Thanks for being judgemental though. It's such a rarity at
Win4Lin for SPEED. Office is very fast and smooth. ;)
Also Cant play a video game other than solitare. No DX support.
VMware on the other hand, does have a better networking model, not just winsock.dll support..
Takes more memory and cpu to run. But was able to play quake2 very smoothly on a p2-400.
What is this utility, and where can I get it? There's nothing more annoying for me than to boot into Windows to do something that requires a Windows program and find out I left the files I needed on my Linux partition. (Well, actually, bluescreens in Windows are more annoying, but this is a close second.)
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are not necessarily my own, as I've not yet had my medication today.
...if only to piss him off
In my experience NT in a virtual machine is fine whereas 98 was painfully slow (on a PIII 500 with 128MB). So a performance comparison between 98 on VMWare and Win4Lin is not as useful as one between NT on VMWare and Win4Lin (assuming you just want to run windows apps). Anyone know how other OS compare in the virtual machine?
is a quote from the marketing team over at trelos, i highly doubt that this is really that stable concedering that is appears from this diagram that this app runs in linux kernal space. Not such a good idea, if your interested in stabilty.
I could be completly wronge here, but if it does indeed use MS code, and runs in kernel space, i can't imagine this setup being very stable.
Another point to make is that this is a comercial product. (way) not GPL.
-Jon
this is my sig.
VMWare - Runs almost any x86 OS. VMs can be created on Linux or NT, some rumor of BSD folks using it -- though I'm not certian. Patches the kernel by using a set of loadable modules. Very compatable. Check the news groups: vmware.*.
Win4Lin - Only Win9x at this time. Only runs on Linux. Fairly compatable. Sound support added to beta releases. Very low memory footprint. Patches kernel directly; no module support. Check the mailing lists: www.trelos.com.
Neither support advanced video or specialized hardware. In the case of Win4Lin, the sound support is only available in the beta and is not entirely stable or complete. (I could not record with it, for example, but that might be my fault.)
The kernel patches are available, but aren't the same. Because of that, your kernel may/may not be supported by either VMWare or Win4Lin. If it's not supported, these programs won't run! For bleeding edge kernel releases, use VMWare. It is more likely to have kernel modules available when you need them. There are security issues since these are propriatory extentions, though the kernel modifications are available as source.
Having said that, I intend to buy two more copies of Win4Lin for my family as gifts. For business use, I would be more cautious and prefer VMWare unless Win4Lin worked with a specific Windows-only application and memory was tight.
Both have full-featured, time limited, trial versions available for download, so the risk is minimal.
As always, if there's a Linux software available...that gets the nod over VMware or Win4Lin.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Now when it comes to "cost effectiveness", if you're paying ~$150 per user/session, isn't that a heck of a lot more than CAL (client access licenses) for NT Terminal Server or Citrix WinFrame?
Possably for large scale deployment, but for a small office/personal use, Win4Lin + an existing copy of Win98 will be cheaper.
So at what point does Microsoft limit your use of their Windows 9x products with their EULA? Could they not outlaw you from using it in such a manner, or say your "right-to-use" (RTU) license doesn't cover it???
I wouldn't be surprised if they tried that in the future, but existing copies allow you to install/run it on one computer with 1 user at a time. Win4Lin doesn't change that.
Windows can be installed on multiple machines (in violation of the license of course) now. Win4Lin doesn't change that either. You are still asked for the product key by setup.exe when you set it up. MS has no valid arguement there. Of course, lack of validity has never stopped MS from making an arguement in the past.
This really is Windows for Linux, it wants me to reboot after I install, because:
You do not appear to be running a standard supported kernel.
You will need to manually PATCH your kernel.
After downloading a bunch of stuff, it then tells me:
Start Installation (y/n)?y
After installing the kernel, the system will reboot.
Whatever happened to loadable modules? Oh well, I may install it at sometime, but I'm not up for a new kernel and a reboot today.
Windows does not run in kernel mode. It won't even let you run it as root. The bane of Windows stability is the cruddy drivers. Since Win4Lin has it's own driver for the hardware being emulated, it runs much better than Windows on its own machine.
Looking for a computer support specialist for your small business? Check out
There is an important fact that would benefit you to learn and remember: The Whole world does not share your opinions or values. Obviously you have little knowledge of what you are writing about, but have strong opinions about it anyway. Wake up see reality. MS is soon to become LEGACY software. Providing a genuinely Heterogeneous network is the key to the future. Linux allows you to do that - even to the point of accurate emulation. Take your prozac and stop embarrassing yourself.
Dear Christ. It's amazing what /bots will bite at these days, isn't it?
MS is soon to become legacy software is the biggest fallacy I have ever heard. It's something that you may think would be nice, but there is little to no chance of it happening any time in the next 30 years. You think that MS is going to fall, but you think it because of precisely the thing which you argue with me about... presumptions about the rest of th world./ The user of tomorrow doesn't want much different than the user of today... An idiot box. A TV with extra buttons. That's it. They don't want a fucking command line. They want to feel like they are making a legitimate buisness transaction. They don't want to be 'Computer Users' Regardless of Time Magazine talkin about 'geek sheik', Geeks are lame in the eyes of most people. No one wants to vecome a command line hacker. They want to sit down, get their e-mail, some pr0n, and that's it. Grow the fuck up, and get out of your delusional world, and realize that MS will have the home user market cornered for many decades to come.
Mod Me Down.
Ignore the submission guidelines.
When encryption is outlawed, ?o'AZ-,++o+i++##4AoA+-/-C++bI+/.+~
Now isn't that overkill?. I design webpages as well, and here's how I test (provided the company who ordered the website hasn't decided to do the IE only, the rest is unimportant, which is cheaper for them and more valid in commercial Europe as the Internet only *really* took off after IE 4 was in place):
1 box with: IE 5, Netscape 2, 3, 4 series. The Netscapes each have their own directory. They don't interfere with each other. Proof? Netscape 3 renders my pages better than 4, which wouldn't happen if each version depended on the same DLL in Win-sys. Testing for 2.x compliance only occurs in rare cases. Sorry, but in the commercial arena, if they can knock off the cost of making it work on 2.x, they will. You tell them it's a bad idea, but still.
1 box with IE 4. In Europe, 3 never amounted to much. This box is an old...I don't remember what that machine is supposed to do.
A mac. Runs the latest version of Netscape, whichever that is. In case some secretary has one of them nice, sexy iMacs.
Of course, having read all the posts about the uses of VMWare, I might pester the boss into getting that for ease of use. Unfortunately, it doesn't do away with the need for a mac, yet.
News and bla for computer musicians: http://lomechanik.net/
This product is actually a port of SCO's merge, over to Linux. While running it, you will notice if you 'cat /proc/modules' that they even kept some of the module naming conventions "Merge". This program has run everything that I need to run in Windows (Photoshop - I need CMYK!!)
Before my upgrade to my current system (Athalon 700/512MB RAM), performance was not bad on my ole Pentium-120, with 96MB. It booted Win98 faster than a dedicated Pentium 200!
If anyone absolutely has to run a particular Windows App, I'd highly recommend this, based on price/performance.
I also have found it useful to access my Epson Stylus Color 800 Windows driver for cleaning the printheads. Not to mention that printing in color (for me) is still something to be desired with ghostscript. Great for B/W, but color with this printer needs some serious work at higher resolutions.
There are several reasons. On reason is specialty apps that haven't been and aren't likely to be ported over any time soon (practice managers etc). Another is if an individual in a business environment wants to run Linux, but must still interact with the rest of the office which has standardized on windows and uses Windows only groupware for some tasks (such as scheduleing, contact management, billing).
It can be a great way to ease a transition as well, allowing gradual migration app by app to Linux in order to minimise disruptions to productivity.
There are also cases in professional offices where one decision maker just wants to stay with Windows (OOOOOOH, grog say change bad!) but can't back the arguement up with valid business reasons. Their only hope is to find one app that only windows has, and try to make the business case that it is the best software for it's particular function. They will further argue that it is of overriding importance (which may or may not be true).
The Linux advocate in that office can deflate the argument quickly by demonstrating Win4Lin and the 'all important app' running under it.
If this just involves yourself I can see your point. But if this is the case for more, say 5 and up, I would consider it a waste of money.
That is perfectly logical and sensible. The only flaw is the implicit assumption that the process of choosing the OS to standardise on will be a logical and reasonable process in a business environment (sometimes FUD and a high prices MCSE consultant wins the day.).
Other people pointed out some good things, but there's a category that was missed. There are thousands of software packages, mostly poorly written niche-market DBMS front-ends, that only work on Windows. The companies that write them are small, and generally don't have the resources (money or knowledge) to support multiple platforms. Many businesses, including most of the ones I've worked for, count on one or more of these packages for day-to-day operations.
It sucks, they should switch to something better, but the costs involved in switching the software everyone uses is frighteningly high. If I'm going to recommend someone switch, I prefer recommending Free software, but $35/seat to allow the underlying OS to switch from Windows to Linux while letting everyone still run the same DBMS software systems that they've become familiar with sounds awfully attractive.
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Open mind, insert foot.
I'm not that happy about installing a closed-source setuid-root program. Anyone know what exactly it needs to do ? How can I keep control of it ?
This isn't only a problem with this particular product - installation managers are generally run as root and may set what permissions they like on the things they install. Is there an installation manager that can do a global install as root, or a local install as an individual user ?
But today things are completely different on Linux IMO. Where the regular tasks are concerned (hey, everyone needs to write a cv every now and then :)) you can find software for allmost anything. Word and even beyond (Excell, etc, etc) can be handled by most major suits (Staroffice (my personal favorite), WordPerfect, Applix, etc.) and in some cases it'll cost you nothing at all (not counting download times). Back then I could use Works just because Compaq shipped it with my PC. Bottom line; for allmost every task you want to do there is native Linux software available. Most of it is free and others cost you some money but thats the case in allmost every OS (one of the main reasons I had some difficulties letting go of OS/2; all those cool registered software).
So basicly there isn't really a need for these virtual environments for just running specific Windows based software. Most of 'm could be handeled by the likes of Wine anyway (considering that you really are looking for native Linux software first before moving back to Windows based programs). In several discussions people told me that this wasn't the point to focus on; it was development. When people need to develop software they can depend on virtual environments so that they can use the OS of choice (either Windows or Linux, in most cases it goes both ways) and develop for the other.
I think that this is one big reason & risk for another load of bl0ated software, think of it... What you are basicly doing is building software for an environment which is completely simulated by another one. When you do program / do certain specific tasks you don't have any clue what so ever what'll happen and if it will happen as it should simply due to the fact that you are completely dependend on the way the 'simulation' does its job. In the terms of your average Windows (visual) development environment this would mean depending on the way the visual dev. env. does its thing (very often producing massive (bl0ated) code) and also how well the simulation does its job. If one of them has bugs (and you can be sure that they do) your software is at risk. In rare cases you could be producing software which runs flawlessly in the simulator but is highly instable in the real environment.
Therefor I still do not understand why anyone would even want to do its developing in such environments. I can, to a certain extend, see why people want to do this on their private projects but when business is concerned (some of these virtual machines are focused on business environments as well) I think that you are doing an extremely bad thing(tm) when you choose a want-to-be over the real product. Sure; developing Windows software in Linux may sound c00l ("wow, Linux can even do that?") but anyone with some sense would choose the right product for the right job. I know I would.
Admittedly they still need to use a special functio of bochs to achieve it, but things are moving quite quickly on this even so.
After Linux comes Windows, they suggest.