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Your Tivo Is Watching You
photozz writes: "Salon is running this story about Tivo and their plans to track user viewing habits for targeted ads. It also explores their stance on the 'hacking' of the Tivo for more memory." According to their CEO Mike Ramsay, "We do that in a non-personal way, protecting everybody's privacy," but the details of the actual data aggregation aren't addressed here. That the data is gathered should come as no surprise to anyone who notes that Tivo features a "learning" program-suggestion feature, but the mechanism and how closely data is linked to the customer is something I wish they would explain in more detail.
- A.P.
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"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
How is playing Big Brother "protecting everyone's privacy"? I'd say it's just the opposite. Or perhaps you just have to think about the right way. Or rather not think about it at all. Just let somebody else do your thinking for you. Like Tivo. Or Microsoft. Or the Government. And then they can "protect your privacy." Sheesh.
Windows is going the way of phlogiston...
Just imagine the cash-flow associated with that kind of demographic information.
Why would I want to *pay for* ads and promotions? I don't want them, and yet I already 'get them for free'; I'll pay a company who gets it, to ensure that I *don't* get ads of any sort.
So; show of hands. Who has already ripped video from their Tivo? From the FAQ, it looks like they're working on this...
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
why is it that they have to finds new and creative ways to advertise to you? its freaking rediculous how people make a living by selling our personal information and what we look at.
Bold is mine. This is light years ahead of most privacy policies, and they seem to be upfront about what info they use and what they don't.
Truly anonymous targeted ads are a Good Thing, as long as they are (let's repeat that) truly anonymous. They bring revenue for the company and are perhaps even useful to the consumer. (How much revenue is another thing - he flat-out admits that 80% of people fast-forward the ads.)
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
Don't want to pay that monthly fee and have a home computer with a large hard drive? Buy an ATI ALL-IN-WONDER RADEON card. It does everything TiVo does but completely under your control without lifetime monthly fees.
ALL-IN-WONDER RADEON
If you don't like it, don't use the service. They don't have a right to your private (although anonymous, they say) information anymore than you have a right to TV.
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
TiVO is providing its customers with a useful service, and people react whining and throwing a fit just because TiVO's real-world policies don't fit in with certain ultra-libertarian ideals. Look, it's one thing to track information about your personal life. But setting up a targetted advertising scheme based on your TiVO viewing preferences isn't a crime -- hell, TiVO is doing you a favor. They could just throw random commercials on the screen like every other TV network; instead, they're trying to cater to each user individually.
Stop whining and give TiVO the respect they deserve for bringing new life to the dusty old idiot box.
Don't people generally hack the TiVo to ad space?
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
So is your DSS receiver, your cable company, your Internet Service Provider, and "friendly" agents riding around in your neighborhood with everything from mobile wiretapping devices to bugs and microphones to Van Eck phreaking setups. They're monitoring your viewing habits, listening to your phone calls, pulling images off of your monitor, and God knows what else. But it's not Tivo that's doing it, and it's certainly not Tivo that we need to be afraid of. It's the liberals. They're watching us, and people need to know it.
.. if you're scared of Project Echelon or Carnivore, you're being naive, because those projects are positively benign compared to some of the other things the liberals have up their sleeves.
When you listen to Rush Limbaugh or Micheal Reagan, do you think that you're just sitting back and listening to real Americans talk about the current sordid state of affairs in your country? Do you think that agents of the government don't care that you listen to these patriots? They do. I have several acquaintances that work at high levels within the United States "national security" system, and believe me when I tell you that they know who each and every one of us are. Each of us who chooses to listen to Rush instead of Geraldo Rivera is being monitored by the federal government in case we decide to do something un-American, such as speak out against the liberals that run this country (God forbid!)
Liberalism is about two things: first, the enslavement of children and second, the suppression of any and all opinions that run contrary to it. To that end, the government has established a vast network of surveillance devices capable of monitoring us wherever we may be. Think you're safe at the gun range or at church? Think again. They're watching our every move. And let me tell you, friends
Look. We don't have to worry about Tivo or other corporations "watching us." They are, after all, not government agents. They are corporations in pursuit of wealth creation, and the creation of wealth is among the Godliest things that a person or entity can aspire to do. If a corporation wishes to target entertaining advertisements at us that aid us in our quest to engage in conspicuous consumption (as is every American's duty), then we should be applauding them. That is not the problem. The problem is leftist government agencies monitoring everything we do.
I suggest every Slashdot reader keep aware of these issues by constantly monitoring WorldNet Daily, which is about the only objective source of news left in this country. There is far too much at stake here for us to sit back and remain complacent. Only by rising up against our government will we regain our freedom.
I actually happen to like this idea if it done properly. I own a Tivo, and I find it does a pretty good job of picking shows to record that I might like.. and if I don't I just give it's selection a thumbs down on the remote, and it will gradually get better. So if Tivo the company can use the same intelligence to send me comercials that it uses to record me shows, perhaps I might actually watch them. Everyone seems to forget that advertising is not the devil incarnate. If company X is having 60 gig hard drives on sale for $100, you bet I wouldn't mind if they told me. Too many companies advertise fluff that I have absolutly no interest in that I'm just in the habit of fast forwarding through every commercial by now though, but that could change if they could send me commercials that concern products I am interested in. Of course the one thing that does concern me is that they would link my preferences to my name, but Tivo has said they don't do that numerous times.. of course they might be doing it anyway without telling us, but that kind of info has a way of getting out eventually, and then look out lawsuits. just my 2 cents :)
I've always belived that the statistical data collected by the ratings players was deeply flawed, since the only people who participate do so by being paid money, as well as know their viewing habits can have a dramatic effect on the world of television.
The Internet is generally stupid
From a statistics point of view, a single persons viewership profile is insignificant. Nobody would ever look at your stats specifically and say "Wow, this fellow sure likes watching the Playboy Channel". They need to amalgamate the stats from thousands of viewers to get any information that's of use. So it's not like anyone is spying directly on you.
"I can only show you Linux... you're the one who has to read the man pages."
Check out the TiVo site at http://www.tivo.com/care/privacy.html to see the entire TiVo privacy statement. I do not think this is going to end up a privacy invasion. I have lots of faith in the uber coolness of TiVo. :)
I'd like to see their data on me if I got one of these boxes.
"Let's try and target some commercials for him."
"Yeah what commercials does he watch."
"Um none."
"Alright kick in the subliminals."
My Weblog
Through a few links, found this interesting discussion :
;) Also, I can see the following as a challenge don't you?
.sig --
Hacke rs don't upset TiVo--yet
Looks like the discussion started from this site :
The unofficial TiVo Hackers Site
And the fact that the CEO is _okay_ with it is pretty interesting. But what's kinda scary is this quote
"One of the reasons we've created the receiver the way we have is that the disk is sealed into the receiver; you cannot get access to the digital information. So we are somewhat concerned about the ability of people to hack in and get access to the copyrighted material because obviously our partners in the media industry are very concerned about this. "
What! A SEALED disk is what's protecting this information?! Okay, I'm sure this isn't the case (let's hope not!) but still, kind of a funny quote nevertheless
Q: So you're afraid that people will save a bunch of movies, then transfer them from TiVo to their computers and eventually the Net. How possible is this?
A: It's an incredibly difficult task. It's one thing to record what you see onto the TiVo drive, but the format on that drive and how you get access to that drive is totally proprietary to us. It would be very difficult for somebody to actually hack into that. And as far as we know, no one is doing that today.
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From the article:
So you're afraid that people will save a bunch of movies, then transfer them from TiVo to their computers and eventually the Net. How possible is this?
It's an incredibly difficult task. It's one thing to record what you see onto the TiVo drive, but the format on that drive and how you get access to that drive is totally proprietary to us. It would be very difficult for somebody to actually hack into that. And as far as we know, no one is doing that today.
Security through obscurity... Yeah, that'll work. NOT!
Someone must have thought of this before, but how easy would it be to make one yourself? A capture card, a large hard disk, a cheap processor... Sure, it'd cost more than US$399, but then you'd be calling the shots. That's gotta be worth it.
Has anyone done anything on this?
To tell you the absolute truth, I cant see how TIVO knowing what I watch, even if its tied to me by mention of my name or whatnot, can effect me in any way. I mean, on the net, I want privacy from corporations and individuals because its more personal information at stake (credit card information, visiting 'questionable' sites :). But when I'm watching TV, I WANT Them to know I skip over the sh*itty shows and watch others. Then I will be effecting what they play, and will, in a very small way, effect what they play.
I know a lot of you are saying that this will enable targeted advertisments, Good! at least I wont have to sit through tampon comercials!. And I can always walk out of the room for a snack, its not like targeted ads are more evil then non-targeted ads. and they will probably be limited to a banner anyway since tivo is a bit limited in video capabilities.
And the last argument to tracking what people watch that people often make, that it reveals something about that person to the mega-corporation-super-consperacy. They know that you watch SURVIVOR!! OOOH.
my point is there isn't too much incriminating content on TV, unlike the Internet. Because its so filtered and such a massive media, the only thing they will learn is that you watched the same thing as 500,000 other people that night.
To that, I say big deal. Privacy as an issue matters on the Internet, but I personally don't think it has much bearing on television viewing habits.
This is off the subject, but when I read this I thought of one thing: having Linux Open Source is of course great, but when implanted into a device like the Tivo, there is not much hacking to be done on the kernel. Sure, you could take the code and make your own device, but who has the time? Not to mention the $$ it would take to mass market such a product.
Would it be reasonable to make an optional extention to the GPL requiring all devices running Linux (or any other GPL'd software) to include instructions on how to extract and modify the source? I'm assuming the kernel in the Tivo is just a binary, so it would be more of a matter of replacing what's there. Do all devices run on generic CMOS or DSP chips that use the same technique to modify the memory on them?
It seems that it would be easy to store the kernel where no one would be able to modify it, thus rendering the OS code useless. Just a thought. Flame as is appropriate.
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Are you trying to suggest that the Republicans are any better than the Democrats? The government agencies that allegedly do the things you speak of are strongly supported by Republicans.
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$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
It is well known fact that many TV watchers suffer from this disorder. As witnessed by the many remotes and other gadgets consumers buy to help them watch more than one thing at a time. I believe it is a Good Thing that Tivo cares about this group of people.
If only Emily Letella was still around for her commentary.
Reality is just a clever Hack, and the Planck constant is the refresh rate.
As long as they're not tracking me using my personal information and rather doing something like "Tivo #38741 likes the Simpsons and the X-Files, show him some Simpsons ads." I don't care. I'm actually all for it. Maybe that way I'll see ads I care about rather than ads for the fucking Backstreet Boys and their deal with Burger King.
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We chose early on to make it possible to fast-forward through ads but not to completely skip them. Replay, on the other hand, decided to do a 30-second skip. That created a line in the sand, and we were on the side that has allowed us to have a much better relationship with the networks.
OK, they are playing nice with the studios... rather smart, actually...
We're able to do ad substitution, and some of our advertisers, especially car manufacturers, are interested in this.
Holy !@#! They're going to eat you alive and make you walk funny.... Tivo is going down...
So we are somewhat concerned about the ability of people to hack in and get access to the copyrighted material because obviously our partners in the media industry are very concerned about this.
So they're worried about Tivster. And well they should be. 3 things I need: >10Mb Internet connection, 100Mb Ethernet in my house LAN to the Tivo box, and the warez to play the philes (which you've dropped in my Tivo Linux box, how 'bout that.) Then, we will 0wn you. Write a napster/gnutella gateway through my home *nix box to the files on the Tivo to share with the world? No prob.
Should be fun to see what happens.
But there are things worth watching. One of our board members and partners is Discovery Communications. They've got a vast amount of educational programming that most people don't see because they're not home when it airs.
Why is it that people think they're actually learning while they're watching "educational" television programs? My roommate last year was addicted to his TV - watched the learning channel, history channel, cartoons, etc, constantly. He (basically) said that he was smart (scored a 5 on the AP US History test) because of that Wonderful invention called Television. In my opinion he just memorized a bunch of facts about history. Television is a passive input device, it provides little stimulation to build neural connections in your head. (There was a study where one group of rats lived in a super-stimulating environment, with wheels & other play structures, and another group got to watch the rats living in the stimulating environment from their barren cell. You get to guess which group had the same lifespan as the control group living in an entirely separate barren cell.) If people really are watching 30% more television with a Tivo like the article says (30%?? - short attention span, too many cartoons when I was young maybe), I cringe when I think of the social problems we'll be facing five years from now.
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
Digital recording is the wave of the furure. I wanted to be ahead of the curve. I purchaed a cheap capture card and have been archiving TV shows and movies to SVCD disks that play back in my set top DVD player. I have found myself watching more TV, it's also nice having the control to edit the commercials when I want to. TiVo and ReplayTV are neat ideas, but untill they can replace my TV with recording archiving and playback functionality... I'll stict to recording it myself. I also am very cautious about TiVo's statements that the recording are copyrighted materal can should not be copied. Time shifting has been held up by the Supreme Court. I think I'll wait till I can record SVCD ( mabye DVD? ) and edit and save them out to disk. If they make that.... then I'll buy one.
If you don't want to share any information, it's simple: UNPLUG FROM THE NET. Obsessing about data sharing, especially when it's used for targeted and personalized content, is so 1995.
This compares with the :cue:cat. Both are the product of marketing genius.
Manufacturers would pay good money to find out who, buying their products, also bought other products so they could target them better.
I'm sure we all knew at some point it would come to this .. all in the name of convenience ..
TiVo is a more difficult issue, but the :cue:cat issue would be easily solved by creating an open database -- something like FreeDB, of the free CDDB project did.
just a suggestion
of course the other option is to sample the shows you think you might like instead of some tv appliance telling you that you might like that show .. *shrug* :)
As long as they don't keep my name, address and social security number somewhere to sell off to companies to fill my email and snail mail boxes full of crap, I don't care more power to them.
As one poster already said, at least I don't have to sit through maxi-pad commercials. What about people that surf around the commercials? Will it completely confuse the system?
ACK
Speculation has been that the primary purpose of this is to keep people from buying cheap TiVo units ($99 for a 14hour unit with rebates) and stripping them for parts.
The work-around to the locked drive involves moving the IDE connection from the TiVo to the PC with the drive powered up. Not for the faint of heart.
As to extracting the MPEG data, it's actively being worked on. To actually be useful, first we need some interface faster than the 115Kbps non-flow-control serial port on the TiVo.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
From the article:
I find the exact opposite to be true - I watch about 90% less television with my TiVo than before. I think there are two reasons for this:
1. I only watch what I've told TiVo to record for me, which amounts to about 3 hours per week. Right now, since everything is in reruns, TiVo's just storing up a bunch of stuff I'll probably never look at; the TV's not been on since last Tuesday or so. Since I don't spend time channel-surfing, I watch almost no TV at all now.
2. When I zip through commercials, I don't stop for anything - no ads at all if I can help it. This includes ads for the upcoming NEW SHOWS!!! Since I don't get seduced by the new shows, and I'm not really interested in watching more just to become a "better" source of demographic information (a privilege for which I pay, no less!) my viewing habits remain, at best, flat. They're losing money on me, and there's fuck-all they can do about it. That makes me very happy.
The moment that TiVo-inserted ads become non-skippable, or I start getting targeted-phone calls, or targeted-junk mail, or (yikes, they HAVE my email address) spam, they'll be getting the box back.
Where the value of X-Mailer: is the true measure of a man...
No, (s)he's actually talking about Nader. The left has as many thought police as the right, and FWIW, they can both go to Hades. I'd consider myself a liberal if it didn't put me in such bad company.
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"A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire
It'd be best if you could put a NIC in the Tivo, of course...
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Apparently, according to a CNBC interview with the CEO(?) of Tivo, the little box doesn't actually send out this information to the big corporate mainframe - it doesn't even send it out at all -- it just customizes the incoming tv signals and tries to figure out what you'll like. So the only privacy issue is "Do I want the box to know what I watch?" - and most of the time, the box won't laugh at you for watching Buffy. - The aforementioned CNBC interview was thursday? I'm sure any interested party can request a transcript - even have someone figure out exactly what day/show the interview took place on! KB
HANDYHBT.... bravo!
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day #1 :
.sig --
Daughter watches smurfs.
Dad watches porn.
day #3 :
Dad sees "My Little Pony" commercials.
Daugher sees "I'm So Horny" commercials.
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Sounds like you can decide whether or not to participate.
Their newest scheme is a combination of 'web-bugs' & cell-phones. Whenever I see one of the government's special transparent 1x1 GIFs my brainwaves register it as a special pattern which persists for several days. The cellphone's transmitter and antenna then act as an extremely short-range EEG to count the number and codes of the 'web-bugs' I've seen in the past few days. They transmit this to Carnivore-bugged phone switches using audio steganography whenever I recieve a 'wrong number' call.
gdfghfdh
hgfj
+++ CARRIER DISCONNECTED +++
Well, if there's one thing that private enterprise probably couldn't do as well as the government, it would be a prison camp, wouldn't it? ;-)
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"A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire
Look, if you buy a Tivo, expect your viewing habits to be sold. Expect your personal data to be tied to them. The kind of highly-granular, personally-identifiable viewing data (down to what commercials are fast-forwarded) Tivo can collect is worth a hell of a lot more than the $10/month.
Of course, they'll generously guard your privacy now while building their installed-base (especially among tech-savvy, privacy-conscious early adopters), but once its popularity blooms beyond that market into the millions, expect an about face.
You may wail and moan and cancel your service at that point, but you'll never get the data you already gave them out of their systems, where it will be bought and sold and subpoenaed.
You will have no recourse.
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
Certainly corporations have had a part in building this country, but they've shackled it as well.
Bah, nevermind, it was a troll. And I stand by my
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Aren't they always?
(Made fun of by a gay man with lesbian friends, some of whom work in inner city schools where the day-to-day language isn't BBC English and many of the folks are Islamic...)
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
They both frighten me. But I actually worry about big business more. Big goverment is easy to point out the leaders and those to fight against. But big business is not so easy. People usually think of them as just some enitity that is trying to make a buck. But that goal could cause problems for the rest of us.
I like the days when there were lots of small businesses that you can patronise. A corner deli, a newstand, etc. Now the only thing left in my area is Wallmart's Supper store. The thing is so big you can't find anything. It wasn't bad when it was smaller, and you could get things quickly. But now its impossible to find what you want. After looking around, I'm not the only one that is annoyed with them.
I believe that business can control government more than government can control business. You could use Microsoft as an example, because they seem pretty big and strong enough to win appeals, and I doubt that they will be broken up.
You forget that Business can grow bigger than governments. They are not limited to national borders, they can go across the world, in a global economy. I'm not against free trade, but we need to still have respect for the employees all over the world. Get rid of the sweatshops, and then trade.
Government and Business both have the same goals, and that is power. The more power the better. The more Big Business gets power, the less rights you will have. The suing that goes on is the power of the business. Sure there are cases that the layman gets there reward (old lady burnt by McDonalds coffee, and not to mention the Tobacco thingy). But try to fight business and you will loose! (DeCSS, RIAA, Patents, and DMCA).
Sorry, but the attitude of let the companies reign and do what they want will bring havoc to the rest of the world. Companies thrive on greed, and it can affect us all. Unfortunately the only way to control them is via government. So it all comes back to government being a neccessary evil.
I'm not against Capitolism, we just happen to be all short sited, and make decissions base on short term goals. If the aim is for long term then the world will be a better place. I always come back to the notion that if someone works hard they should be able to get ahead. If a company becomes too big, then no matter how hard you work, you can not get ahead, unless you bow down to the corporation. Whats the difference of being a slave to the government or a slave to a business? They both control your ass.
Sorry for the rant, but I'm tired and I want to go to bed!
Steven Rostedt
Steven Rostedt
-- Nevermind
You're completely wrong, check a dictionary for the meaning of thief, it says when you deprive the original owner of something.
Copying IP is *never* theft.
He posited a very Net-centric society with most everyone running very heavy filters to extract the data that interested them. Gerrold was obviously worried about this; the protagonist wrote a virus that would simply mess with people's filters a little. It would start letting in a worldview that they wouldn't ordinarily subscribe to. It was designed to shake them up a little without being overtly destructive. It helped keep people from going completely insular and stale.
I can see a couple of strong parallels here, and I don't think this has crossed very many people's minds. We already know about the obvious abuses: if they really knew what people watched, it would be fairly easy to determine a good chunk of the potentially-rebellious population simply by accessing their viewing records. Folks who watch a lot of TV Nation and Discovery Channel are not likely to be nearly as malleable as the Millionaire crowd.
Right, you knew that. But I think there's a more subtle danger here. In essence, by targeting you with personalized ads and, presumably, actual programs, aren't they able to manipulate your worldview to an astonishing degree? Wouldn't they be able to sort of bury you into a feedback loop? IE, if you are paranoid, feed you programs to fuel your paranoia and extract more money from you for bomb shelter supplies?
I don't think this is possible, I think this is INEVITABLE. They're going to do whatever they can to extract as much money from you as possible. Telling you the truth is not on the agenda. If lying to you extracts more cash from you, that is the right thing to do from the perspective of the stockholders.
Personally, I do NOT NOT NOT like the fact that ANYONE can control what I see but me. I'm unwilling to surrender that much of my choice. Admittedly there is already a great deal of manipulation going on in the media (if you don't think so, go read some foreign newspapers -- you'll be AMAZED at what you don't hear about here.) But TiVO is going from the subtle and indirect to the obvious and blatant.
I worry, as did Gerrold, about the feedback loops in self-referential reinforcing programs and behavior. That way leads to madness -- literally. As a culture we are already nuts, bonkers, crazy as loons. Individual people I know are almost always quite sane and reasonable, but in a group we believe in Life as Seen On Television, generally don't question what's on the tube. We cherish and embrace simulated homicide as light entertainment before dinner, and pay no attention whatsoever to state-sanctioned executions or the fact that we have a higher percentage of our population in prison than any other First World country.
We're already nutty as fruitcakes, as a group. What are we going to do when they can control what we see directly? Do we go mad one by one instead?
Heh. Amen to that brother.
Now it seems the act of fast-forwarding or editing-out ads will become criminalized (re DeCSS), which remind me of Carl Sagan's "Contact" where one of the characters was a businessman who got shafted by the government for creating a smart chip that blocked advertising. Sagan's ghost must be saying "I told you so!"
Lots of annoying politically-correct bits but lots of juicy insights too. Highly recommended read. No, I didn't watch the movie. No, I haven't the slightest intention of doing so.
When I read this article 24 hours ago, I got very nervous by the headline that seemed to claim targeted advertising based on your watching habits. However, after reading the article, I could find nothing to support such claims, but instead sensed some key TiVo features are being taken out of context.
:)
While the TiVo can and probably does monitor what you watch, claim I've seen is that this data is aggregated and never used on the individual level, nor sold to third parties. I personally see no problem in calculating an in-house version of the Nielson Ratings. In fact, I encourage it.
The 'targeted ads' bit is more than likely a reference to the TiVoMatic function, also known as TiVo Takes. This is used on a handful of networks right now as a way of scheduling programming on a 'See it. Want it. Get it.' basis. Basically, it's a hyperlinked embedded in an ad to let you schedule the program in the ad for later viewing. I personally want to see more of this, so ads have some use to me and so I don't have to click away from live tv in order to schedule a program.
Finally, for those concerned about the Suggestions being used by TiVo, you can put your black helicopter theories back in the Paranoia Bin. The processing for preferences is done on the box itself, as has been proven by hackers that can make the listing re-gen on demand. It would seem an awful waste to have these centrally processed anyway, since the CPU on a TiVO is mostly idle.
you mean like videotaping? but videotaping is legally considered "fair use", so you'd be wrong.
As we all know, WebTV is partially owned by M$. I have yet to confirm this (mostly because I don't know anyone moronic enough to use WebTV), but about a year ago someone told me that WebTV dials up M$ in the wee hours of the morning and uploads a log of every show watched and every site surfed. Isn't this orders of magnitude worse than the seemingly passive methods Tivo is using?
Dracos
"Time flies when you're procrastinating."
David Brin wrote Earth, not David Gerrold.
You obviously missed the joke -- I was implying that an efficiently (read: privately) run prison camp wouldn't be effective.
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"A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Didnt we just have that thing about how IE is watching you?
According to these news stories everyone can know about anyone. But i have a question... Does it matter? How could this information be abused?!? If anything, i would rather see ads i am interested in rather than dish detergant ads.
-nbot
One of Tivo's best features is it's autorecording of shows you might like that you might not have thought of.
To honestly allow the mp3-sharing servers to expand our listening, how about song recommendations based on "people who have this song often also have this other song". To go further towards Tivo, how about letting me set aside a gig for Gnutella to d/l songs to that it thinks I might like?
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You see, the nagative implications outweigh the positive ones. Yes, there are positive advantages to targeted adverts, like showing you something you might actually be interested in instead of something you're almost surely not.
However, what we rail against is the potential for abuse. To generate targeted ads, there must be a database of your preferences. This information about you could be used against you, to harm your character or reputation, or as evidence against you in a criminal proceeding.
For example, tracking information indicating that you frequent gay/lesbian/bisexual sites could be used to unwillingly "out" you, and even to destroy your career. One of the most notable cases is that of Tim McVeigh--not the bomber, though they share names--who was outed to the military by one of AOL's "guides" who handed over information about McVeigh's interest in gay chatrooms.
Also, databases of consumer buying patterns have already been used against people in criminal cases. The example which comes to mind immediately is that of a small-town marijuana dealer unfortunate enough to use a store discount card at the supermarket--police subpoenad his shopping records, to ascertain whether he bought an unusually large number of plastic baggies or other "drug paraphernalia." Let's not forget that, while he was a criminal, the legalization of marijuana is favored by an extraordinarily large percentage of Americans, and that the potential for such databases to be exploited in investigations goes far beyond this.
Do you want your TiVo records to indicate that you watch a lot of softcore Cinemax porn when you're falsely accused of rape? Believe it or not, conservative juries can look down on even softcore legal stuff, and some judges will let it in. Or, what if you watch a lot of The Disney Channel and Nickelodeon and you're falsely accused of child molestation? Such "evidence" would *definitely* be used against you since a psychiatrist would be called to testify as to how well you fit the profile of a pedophile--watching excessive amounts of kids' shows is common pedophiliac behaviour.
Even worse, corporations have total control over this data--they can merge it into vast databases, covering every aspect of your life. That's what several corporations are aiming to do. What if this data is made available to other corporations for a small fee? Well, then a prospective employer could do a background check which includes your TV viewing habits and shopping habits, and screen you out because you watch too much Cinemax porn or too many mindless sitcoms, or because you buy too many OTC medicines and must be a health risk. Right now, privacy policies aren't really legally binding and can be changed without notice, so all this information could be merged into a seamless database without any legal recourse to stop it.
It's quite clear that the benefits of seeing ads I might be more inclined to click through are far surpassed by the risks. It's all in the name of making human beings into blathering, mindless consumers instead of citizens anyway--do I really care what ads they throw at me? Fuck no, I ignore them, like a good *individual* should. The less I give to corporations or support their domination of every media outlet, the better.
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."--Tacitus, *The Annals*
Yes sir, if I were working on an Embedded set-top box, with say, network connectivity and all sorts of spiffy features and a hard drive and... oh... wait...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
So they have the ability to target ads for things you might like or have shown an interest in previously. big deal, right?
now suppose your mom is visiting and there are nothing but 1-900-cum-on-me ads. Or ads for guns and rolling papers when the social worker supervising your adoption drops by for the weekly visit. Maybe they even realize that your TiVo is sending these ads on purpose.
I'd personally rather hit mute when the lame ads come on or change the channel to something more to my liking, instead of having the targeted ads.
One of the things I like about t.v. is that it is a one-way medium. With TiVo it no longer is.
plus, i can't see paying a recurring fee for this or allowing someone elses device (TiVo's) to make phone calls back to the mothership on my behalf. How hard would it be to pack a microphone in to one of those things and have it use filtering software looking for key words like assassinate and then reporting that back to 'big-brother'?
Silly Rabbit: tricks are for kids.
It's not encryption, it's a new filesystem type. The CPU in the box (PowerPC 403), running at 50MHz, is way underpowered for encryption. Think of a 486SX.
I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
I don't have an issue with targetted advertising, I just don't want to pay for it. If TiVo wanted to provide me with a free box that showed me targeted advertising, I would be willing to buy that. But for me to pay for something that is used for advertising seems a bit strange. Of course, people purchase clothing with advertising slogans all the time... very strange...
I am also curious whether they show more advertising to those who skip adverts. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.
As targeting becomes more precise, they can also attempt to make the advertising blend into the show for those folks who fast forward through all the ads.
In the long run, the reason we object to targetted advertising is because its sole goal is to waste more of your time watching stupid ads. This, for most of us, is not a useful way of spending time...
Thalia
TV ads compeate with internet banner ads in many ways.
For the content provider it's easyer to get ads (vea an ad agency like Dubble Click or ad server like AdFu.. or both. like Slashdot... prod prod...)
(Really people Dubble Click is redundent.. You make more money with AdFu directly..)
With TV someone can get ads pulled from your TV show if they don't like it... With banners there are usually far to many advertisers to pull and with banners there will allways be someone to fill the void...
TV ads are majorly expensive so only a few are willing to pay the price tag banners are cheap and just about everyone can afford them.
TV ads per person are the same if not less expensive than Banners but with TV it's all or none with Banners you can chouse to have 500 to 50,000 people.
Now here is the part where advertisers really pay attention...
People usually walk away during commertals...
People usually ignore banner ads...
The advertiser pays for every person who walks away.. for every person who turns the TV off.. for every person who accually never watched the show.. It's all statistical polling and it's got bugs.
Banners advertisers pay for.. clicks... thats all.. nothing else... (Ok I pay for ad views but I'm cheap and those are less expensive.. but then I pay when my banner gets ignored so I'm not getting such a great deal.. I don't pay however when you use adbusters.. you never see it.. it never gets loaded.. I never pay... I like adbusters... it says "This guy would have never clicked")
What dose Tivo mean for advertisers...
You can get up and get your food anytime.. zap the show... come back later and zip through the commertals... oh now we know you didn't see those...
It also means an accurate count.. it means we know when you are accually watching.. if you accually watched.. what ads you zip past... what ads you watched..
Advterisers like this... they no longer pay for people who never accually watched the show..
for people who zip passed the ads (as they do with VCRs) or when they turn on or off the TV...
On the other hand it's dubble click for TV...
Don't like it? Don't buy a Tivo.. use adbusters... and save me money...
BTW my ad isn't on Dubble click... I accually think it was a really bad deal but it was a cheap bad deal so blah...
Next time I'll do click through ads with someone like Slashdot or Flycast...
Or maybe I'll do something on the Tivo....
I don't actually exist.
It's suprising how strong the protections are. A specific court order is required to disclose video rental data. A search warrant isn't sufficient; the renter has to have the opportunity to contest the request before the info is disclosed to law enforcement. This is much stronger than the requirements for phone records, and stronger even than the requirements for wiretaps.
Why is it so strong? It's called the "Bork Bill", because it was enacted after somebody got the video rental records of Judge Robert Bork (the Republican moralist and author of "Slouching to Gomorrah") and revealed that he has some unusual video watching interests.
Whether what Tvio does involves is covered is a nice legal question. The original law is narrow, but one can argue by analogy that a new technology performing a comparable function is covered.
The fact that the TV service here in the US is astonishly crappy and we pay an absurd amount of money for it was bad enough. If this story is true, Tivo, together with WebTV is geared to accomplish the ultimate scam: make people pay for providing valuable information to the advertisement droids.
The "free" PC or "free" Internet stuff was based on the "fair-exchange" principle: you sell us your personal data, in exchange we give you our product.
Tivo is not a free device so if I pay I expect to not be "charged" with the selling of my vieweing habits. What we watch is solely our own business and people should be extremely protective about this. After all, companies are so interested on viewer's habits because gathering this kind of information is extremely valuebale for them. Should we give this precious resource to big business for free ? Hell no.
Censorship and screening are bringing us to effective mass-population control. It's about time to send to these people a clear message: extend you arm, make a fist, now extend you middle finger.
You are depriving the original owner of their _time_. They put the time in, knowing that they would be compensated for it, because that's what the law says.
You are then changing this implicit contract they had and stealing that time they spent.
_____
My Journal
We often here companies talk about how they only track "aggregate" numbers. In other words, they don't care really what any one person is doing. They are more interested in looking at the patterns/habits of large numbers of people. But has anyone stopped to consider that this isn't necessarily going to keep us safe? Think about the power to be able to collectively observe the private habits of 300 million people. I can guarantee you there are mass-psychology specialists poring over all this data, eager to divine the habits and weaknesses the "average" American. And not just the "average" American, either. Don't you think they are tracking this data by zip code? By ethnicity? By age? By sex? By household income? By education? By just about every category that can be plugged into a database? Now think about how much easier it will become to manipulate the masses with all this data. You, oh genius /. user may not be manipulated. But do you really think Joe Six Pack, and the 80% of Americans who don't give a shit about this issue, will understand how he is being manipulated by this super-sophisticated machine?
And which institutions do you think will have access to this data? The average businessman? The local kid running for city council? The average American looking to petition his/her fellow citizens. Fuck no. The people who will have access to this data, and who will be given a distinct competitive advantage because of it in just about every aspect of Amercian life, will be those who already have the power and the money.
They will create this data and they will consume this data to manipulate the masses into just about anything and we will be just about powerless to do anything about it.
---Technology will liberate us if it doesn't enslave us first.
Excellent book. One of the heroes is a biologist/hacker and one of the villians is an ecologist/hacker. The biologist/hacker runs a filter that explicitly lets through some data she wouldn't be interested in/agree with.
Also, in the future posited by Brin, there is no privacy. Possibly the most worrying aspect of the future shown book, because the most likely.
Best Slashdot Co
Hey, if TiVo reporting my viewing habits might mean the shows I actually like would stay on the air, they can have them!!!!
rm
Sci-Fi Storm
TiVo has stated in the past that they do not send your thumbs-up/thumbs-down ratings back to their servers. It's just a preference algorithm that picks shows you may like. Both the suggestions and the method for determining them stay on the box (as I understand it).
TiVo does collect information regarding shows recorded, commercials fast-forwarded through, etc. but only at the aggregate level. They don't use anything lower than the zip code level.
I don't have a problem with this. It's the best money I've ever spent. I'd sooner give up the rest of my home theater components. Um, except the TV. I kinda need that with the TiVo.
What if the Hokey-Pokey really is what it's all about?
You'll find hundreds WND stories on Y2K and every single one of them utterly alarmist.
WND also ran banner ads on many of these stories, offering sets of videotapes on y2k preparation - including some really survivalist nonsense - for hundreds of dollars. The videotapes and other survivalist nonsense were produced by... you guessed it, WND.
--
Our privacy policy may change over time.
How many companie have we herd from now that have decided that their database of personal information is a saleable "asset". Shure they may give notice, but that just means that they will give notice.........
Dirty Pirate Hooker
I thought i took my time to download an AD blocker. I don't like seeing those damned things.
If i like somthing ill goto the site. I don't need, or want an ad.
The thing is hackable, you know. It runs Linux. If you're worried about what it's sending back, did it occur to nobody to just look?
Three files are uploaded to TiVo daily: tivoLog.pub, tivoLog.prv, and a log for 'myworld', the program that runs the machine.
tivoLog.pub appears to contain info on internal errors that have occured, but is usually empty.
tivoLog.prv is the issue here, it contains a log of every program watched and every button pressed on the remote.
Now, looking at the dialup scripts (Yes! It's all scripted!) You can see how it RANDOMIZES the name of the file before uploading it. No identifying information at all is in the file itself, the serial number isn't there. The serial number is used as the filename for upload, after being randomized. It appears possible for TiVo to change a setting and have the serial as the file name not randomized, but this is not set. It seems to be for debug purposes.
Sheesh.
Now the kicker: why shouldn't they have this info? It says it's taken in the manual. It says so on the site. Call up customer service and ask, they won't deny that they get it. One thing they do claim is that it's totally anonymous (true) and if you still don't want it, you can tell them to turn it off and it's done (also true, there's a setting in the box for it).
One final word (to correct a bad assumption): The TiVo Suggestions are computed entirely on your personal TiVo. No TiVo servers are used to compile this info, none of your thumbs ratings for shows are sent back to TiVo for this purpose. It's all local.
From now, before you bash something, learn what's really happening. It's fine to argue in the abstract, but a computer is not abstract, it's a real physical device. It's simpler to actually hack the thing and find the real story.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
TiVo should know better than this.
The fact is, any proprietary data format can and will be hacked, regardless of whether or not TiVo moves to stop it. My guess: it'll be cracked inside of two years, probably more like one. Is that good? Not particularly. But the situation is what it is.
If you want to stop copying, you use encryption. Strong encryption, not the puny stuff MPAA used in DVD players (and even that wasn't as bad as most geeks make it out to be; the only reason CSS was hacked in the first place was because Xing left its key out in a non-secure spot, which the hackers then found). Hardware-based encryption chips can be made quite cheaply (and alleviate speed issues), and it doesn't take much to burn the key into a secured ROM. Even better, use battery-backed RAM so the contents of the chip are lost if it's removed (i.e. for analysis). The batteries on SRAM can last for ages (I have examples upwards of eight years old with the original batteries still in place and chugging away) so the chances of the batteries running out in an active unit are basically nil, and you provide some way of restoring the key at the factory just in case of an accident (if the user has to send the unit in, then it can also be checked for signs of tampering).
Once your encryption is in place, all you have to do is use standard MPEG-2, and you're all set to go (hardware MPEG-2 en/decoders aren't that expensive either). You have data that can be made as safe as you want it (to protect against media lawsuits), and you still save a ton in research and development (since you don't have to develop a proprietary format and the hardware/software to run it).
----------
Now the crucial things to understand here are two. One, yes, that is well established fair use. Two, NO, it would not be legal under the DMCA. The DMCA attempts to circumvent fair use rights, by making it not the use which is illegal, but the act of bypassing any technological roadblock that's been thrown up to prevent the exercise of fair use rights. This is a direct result of the fact that rights belong to the general public, which is statistically ignorant and apathetic, while the privileges the DMCA seeks to exalt over our rights are cash cows for corporations with deep pockets and plenty of public officials already bought.
Do you think this is an outrage? Do you want to do something about it?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
That URL above is where slashdot posted that Tivo okayed hacking of there systems. We already new that. So they are tracking what you view. Slashdot is tracking all your comments, as well as your preferences. I mean don't you think that slashdot knows more about you then Tivo does? Does anyone else wonder if slashdot is targeting ads at them?
On a less parynoid note. This is not really anything new. Web site are doing this all over the place. Any data that they can get about you to figure out what you may or may not buy is used. Doubleclick does this just read there privacy statement. What is Tivo's privacy statement? Do they even have one? Maybe that is the question that you should be asking your self.
Personally, I think it would be better to just put a UPS on your VCR and go about things that way. Then you don't have these concerns, you don't get programs that you probably don't want. And guess what, it works!
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
Now the kicker: why shouldn't they have this info? It says it's taken in the manual. It says so on the site. Call up customer service and ask, they won't deny that they get it. One thing they do claim is that it's totally anonymous (true) and if you still don't want it, you can tell them to turn it off and it's done (also true, there's a setting in the box for it).
What, you haven't heard of caller ID? Your phone number is even more useful than a serial number for a unit that you might have paid for with cash. Nothing forces it to be anonymous in the description you've given. (Of course you could block caller ID but most people don't...)
I agree with your sentiment about understanding something before bashing it (I'm not bashing), but there's more to it than just the code in the box. TiVo the company may or may not be trust worthy.
what about digital cable? I would be surprised if the viewing habits of digital cable users was not monitored...
"Just let somebody else do your thinking for you. Like Tivo. Or Microsoft. Or the Government. And then they can "protect your privacy." Sheesh."
I can just see the slashdot headlines next year...
"Judge supoenas Tivo to hand over all profiling information to the NSA on a regular basis."
Or with that Carnivore system are supoenas even necessary anymore? Frankly, any online profiling system fed through carnivore can easily just add to the database. This is multiple networking from multiple sources, and suddenly the wrong people out there know way more than you would ever want them to.
Tivo is harmless in itself, and so is any other online profiling. Aggregated and articulated by something like Carnivore or it's successor, and THEY will have total control.
Th3Y 0wN j00 b17c3z!!!!!!
>No identifying information at all is in the file >itself, the serial number isn't there Um, could they not simply record your telephone number (Caller ID) when the Tivo dials in?
They don't need to have your serial number in the filename. When your box calls in, it has to identify itself so that they know you're a subscriber, right? Unless it makes two separate calls each day (one identified to get program data, one anonymous to send viewing information), the server already knows who's sending the file.
Filenames are irrelevant. Caller ID is irrelevant. They've looked up your subscription information and can use it to tie everything related to that call back to you.
Step 1. Close any and all bank accounts you have. Take the assets as cash, unless the accounts are worth more than 10,000 dollars. If that situation is true, then take your cash out in less-than-10k bundles.
The big banks all sell and swap information about you. Remove your cash and remove your name from their lists.
Step 2. If you own any other properties (stocks, bonds, real estate, cars, etc.), ice 'em, again respecting the 10k at a time rule.
A good number of these records are available to the public at low to no charge.
Step 3. Pack your bags and get a job within the EU.
The European privacy standards are extremely strict. A company requesting personal data MUST tell you what they are collecting, why, and if it is to be given to outsiders, they must ask for your permission.
Another perk? You're outside the range of the DMCA!
"Written by a EU citizen. Piss off."
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
Does it support Linux?
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
As I recall, the only thing "unusual" about Bork's viewing habits is that he has a penchant for Golden Age song-and-dance numbers--a lot of Sinatra and Astaire movies.
Saying that Bork has "unusual video watching interests" does nothing but slander a man's name. While intelligent people often disagree with Bork's politics, I would hope that we're all mature enough to shy away from slander.
Actually, every TiVo shipped has hardware-based Blowfish encryption on board. I doubt the hardware is tuned to handle realtime encryption/decryption of the MPEG-2 video stream, but I haven't looked at the details of the chip and it's interface to the mainboard.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
The whole point of digital is it's control. While our elected represetatives act like the world is decentralizing, digital is making it possible to track everyone, everywhere, everytime. Like Supertramp's Logical Song...soon we all will be told who we are. Soon, the nanochip inside your head will read your thoughts before you do. And if approved, you will be allowed to think the thought. Welcome to the 21century. Everything is under control. Aren't you the least bit curious about whose? They'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, fanatical, crimminal, unacceptible... ...please tell me who i am, who i am...
an enigma wrapped around a paradox driven by a paradigm shift
Are you saying that the entire US Congress is Republican?
--
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;