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Extending UCITA To Printed Books?
mapmaker asks: "I recently purchased an application 'how-to' book (Inside AutoCAD Map 2000, OnWord Press) that utilizes a disturbing method of publication: the final 100 pages of the text aren't printed - they're included on the companion CD-ROM as PDF files. I'm not talking about extras or bonus material - these are integral parts of the text. The last page of the printed text simply states, 'Book Continued on Companion CD-ROM'. Leaving aside the fact that this is a dirty and underhanded method of cutting publishing costs, this is particularly disturbing because of the sticker that seals the CD jacket. It states: 'CD Enclosed. If the disc package seal is broken, the purchaser forfeits all return rights and privileges to the seller.'" Now this just does not sound right at all. Looks like I'll be avoiding books from OnWord Press in the future.
"In other words, to examine the complete text of this 'book' that I've bought, I must first agree to forfeit my legal rights as a consumer?"
I live in Virginia, the only state to have the dubious honor of passing UCITA into law. My question is this: Because some of the text of this book is contained in electronic files bundled with the printed portion, does UCITA give the weight of law to this preposterous shrink wrap "agreement"? And how does this impact existing laws pertaining to copyright, fair use, and consumers' rights?"
Can this book be in a public library now ?
I believed no.
OverLord
First of all, I agree with the pervious posts saying that this is disturbing from a political standpoint.
But also, How fricken annoying! I have a problem, I reach over onto my self, grab the relavent book (if I have it) and quickly find the page, then sit it in front of me as I work on the problem.
Is the index in the print, or on the CD? Could you imagine having to stick the damn CD in, go to the back, look up a page, just to see its in the printed half? Damn, thats stupid.
Just having to read it off the computer you're working on is a pain in the ass, print is just faster unless you always have the pdf in memory, but having to putz around with that AND a book is asinine.
If there are sections of the book which cannot be read without a computer with appropriate software, is it a book?
Did this thing have notices on the cover 'Computer required: You will not be able to read all of this book with a computer.'? If not, I'd say the product had been sold under false pretences, because I dont need a computer to read a book.
In theory; in practice the price of CD'ed books is a lot higher than the 8p VAT on a blank CD would suggest. I assume someone somewhere is being ripped-off.
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
take a knife or scissors and cut the cd-rom package open.
"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens." - Schiller
Only way to fit in the material? How about volume 1 and volume 2? I'd pay for it, if it was all printed.
Note that extracting the text from the PDFs for purposes of even doing something as transitory text-to-speech processing on it would probably be viewed by the people that wrote this license as attempting to "reverse engineer" the book and attract a flock of threatening letter...
Not everyone is affiliated with an organization that will give them printing services (or from whom they can be stolen; printing things costs money), you could pay quite a bit to have the last 100 pages of a book printed from the pdf. At a print shop I worked in, it would have cost $15 to rip the file to the DocuTech and 3 cents a page to print it. Printing on public laser printers can cost as much as $1.00 per page.
After spending all of that money, you have a bunch of loose pages. You can pay more to have them put in some kind of cheap binding. In the end, you've could have spent $30 dollars to get the last two chapters of a book you already paid for. Not a very good deal, if you ask me. Of course, if I'm not paying for the printing, I guess it doesn't matter any more than the cost of the book would if I were getting *it* for free.
Haha. :) Actually, I'm doing all my recent coding in Java, which is for men living in THIS millenium, not some antiquated C language...
IANAL, but my guess is that since you'd be the one who got the computer to write the book, the rights would go to you.
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The interesting thing about this author/publisher relationship is this: authors, if they care about their success, will evaluate prospective publishers. And as well they should, in order to determine if the manner in which the publisher conducts the production and distribution of their work is in line with their own principles. There's no written rule that says an author *has* to use a publisher that insists on a UCITA-like stranglehold - but if the author chooses to do so anyway, let the chips fall where they may. If they lose their shirt, tough.
Of course, this is predicated on the assumption that consumers will have the fortitude to stand up and refuse to purchase this kind of product. We all know that it doesn't work with music, so maybe it won't work here either. Time will tell.
When i was in college, almost all of our books had some kind of CD in them with examples. And every one of them had some disclaimer saying that we couldn't return them if we actually opened the CD holder.
So we simply followed the laws of glue physics and heated the edges and pried the plastic off the back cover of the book with a pocketknife and slipped the CD out. Then when we returned it, we would slip the CD back in , put a little clear glue along the edges of the plastic and there you have it, an unremoved CD.
Now with the shrinkwrap issue, you have alightly more problems. if you carefully cut the wrap along the lining, you can theoritcally put it back together by heating it up again. Or else there is the option of being friends with a store clerk that has access to a shrinkwrapper and have the shrink wrap it up for you again.
No, but it is possible for a corporation to publish a book.
...phil
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
Actually VA isn't the only state to pass the UCITA:
OK HI IA IL -- Have Introduced bills
MD VA -- Have Passed UCITA
WA -- The Wall Street Journal reported on 10/11/99 that Microsoft was lobbying the Washington legislature heavily to introduce and pass that state's UCITA legislation.
This info blantently "fair use'd" from:
UCITA Facts
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I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
...include not buying the product in the first place. Or if you've bought it unknowing, to return it before you open the shrinkwrap on the CD and get your money back. Or if there are no returns, to simply toss out the CD and send an email letting the vendor know you're feel you've been scammed and you're not going to buy their product again.
The only way to deal with the problem is to deal with the problem.
"CD Enclosed. If the disc package seal is broken, the purchaser forfiets all return rights and privileges to the seller."
If it didnt also say `statutory rights not affected` (which basically points out that it is not attempting to over-rule the 1979 Sale Of Goods Act, which states that you can have a full refund it its crap, doesnt work, doesnt do what it said it would do etc) then its breaking u.k. law.
How is this troll? Authors DO get paid as it is now, and the idea of first sale is to combat the possible abuses of copyright.
Some texts at my college come with supplemental CD-ROM's. If the seal of the CD-ROM sleeve has been opened, they will not refund your money. Your only option is to sell back the book later in the semester at the used rate.
I am convinced the publishers choose to include these discs understanding that they will receive less returns and make more money.
--
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He lives in a world where those who do not run the client software of the omnipresent meme are unacceptable.
Not sure what you're getting at here; the post did not say that the author shouldn't be compensated, it clearly posed the question, "If I buy this book, will the software seal cause me to foreit my consumer rights?". It did not state "I want to copy this and screw the author". If a publishing house tells me that I cannot review and return a book, I will not do business with that house again.
For the sake of Peace, the Sword.
If you can preview the book, why can't you preview the cd? Some publishers will publish the contents of the cd on their website. It appears it isn't the contents of the cd is that is voiding the warrenty, but the actual physical media used for delivery.
-- Hob - Java Spectrum Emulator
That would be a fair comment for a work of fiction or similar, which is (usually) read from the beginning to the end, in order.
But it's not true for a technical or reference book : what if the very first section you want to look up is in that last 100 pages and turns out to be inadequate or wrong ?
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
hmmm... pavlov ... pavlov... I can't remember what he did but the name rings a bell.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
I don't care i lost karma, its not like i have alot anyway. I just get upset about stupid moderations. Besides you have to attack dumbasses, its the only way to keep them in line :)
I wonder how this would effect college books. My university gave you up to the second week or so of class to return text books. Would this void that?
Now, I'm not defending OnWord press. I think it's a very customer-unfriendly and stupid thing to do. If it's an issue (and it would be for me), by all means don't buy it. Check out return policies before you buy anything.
Example: I was recently having problems with my computer, and I thought--but I wasn't sure--it was the video card. The computer was no longer under warranty, and I decided to try to fix it myself. Now, I'm nowhere near as computer-saavy as most /.ers, and I had never so much as opened a computer before. Since I wasn't sure the problem was the video card, you can be sure I checked out the store's return policy before buying a card.
Good thing I did, too: Even though it turns out the problem was with the video card, I couldn't get the driver to install on the first card I bought. I went and bought a different brand of video card, which I got installed just fine, and returned the first one.
Never take moderation advice from sigs, including this one.
I wouldn't buy a book like that strictly for practical reasons. I don't like having to sit at my computer to read a book.
I do like the idea, as a lot of publishers are doing now, of putting the entire text of a book on a cd as a searchable PDF. It really makes it helpful if you're looking for something specific.
---Joe Merlino gnupg public key ID: 1E91EBAF
If notices are posted it does not mean it is legally binding. You could very well return the purchase and get a refund. Parking lots that say park at your own risk are still responsible for the proper care of your car.
The interesting/useful/funny bit of your post spilled over onto the cd.
How am I gonna fit /. into my cd drive?
We should all reject such books if it doesn't suit us. The purchaser mostly has his way and if there aren't enough takers they will be forced to sell a book as it should be.
There's always sufficient, but not always at the right place nor for the right folks.
When i buy a printed book, it is because i need a printed version of whatever. If the core content of your book is half-spreaded between printed pages and a CD-ROM, then the book is clearly defective and should be returned to where it comes from.
I'm sure somebody will correct me if I am wrong, but in order for the contract to be construed under Maryland law, I believe that the corporation has to have at least a branch office in Maryland.
Which just provides all the more impetus for Maryland to pass the law, because then companies will be flocking to open an office there.
On the other hand I can see why this type of thing would be tested in the Computer section first. I could also imagine it happening with college textbooks. Who knows, you are essentially forced to buy those if the professor chooses them, maybe half books could catch on there.
Why can't publishers give us what we want? For tech books a complete printed copy AND and searchable CD would be sweet.
Icebox
I suppose that explains why the Wrox books don't have CD's, since they are published in the UK. I've often wondered. I'm fine with going to the web site and getting the code, but I have cable. But I love the wrox books anyway.
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DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
Touche! I am undone by your logic.
It is not enough merely to disagree, but if we are to all be learned people, we must discuss even those positions we abhor.
It is in this way we will be enlightened.
Nyah, nyah to you too.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain with all your metadata.
I have to ask why the outrage? What legal or moral rights of yours is the author infringing on?
I don't know how large this book it, so I'll assume 400 pages. So you have read three quarters of the book without having to make a decision on opening the sealed CD. Now that decision looms over you. Your choices are a) accept the license and unseal the CD, b) return the book for a full refund, c) ignore the license, unseal the CD, violate the license, and go through the rest of life knowing that you have broken your word.
We all agree that an author has a right to keep his work totally to himself, unpublished. He also has the right to place it in the public domain or otherwise allow every other person free access to it. If these two extremes are not immoral, then why is the middle ground, of only allowing a subset of people access to it, an immoral act?
I will agree that having the last quarter of the book in a PDF file to be very inconvenient. I will also agree that having to enter into a contract to access this PDF goes beyond inconvenience to the realm of onerous. If I encountered the above situation I would certainly choose choice (b) and also send a nasty note to the author and publisher. But in a free society I have no moral right to compell the author to publish the book in the manner that I wish. In fact, to tell the author that he cannot enter into any private agreements with his readers is the antithesis of freedom.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
What in hell are you talking about?! After you're done rinsing your face off in the toilet of stupidity, let me know...
My junk address if you have any more crap to spew.
I can't stand Anonymous Cowards...
If it ain't broke, improve it.
1. Steal book.
2. Take home, open CD envelope.
3. Burn 100 copies of the CD.
4. Print stickers that say "do not open the CD envelope, this copy of the CD in the envelope was provided so that you may retain your Constitutionally guaranteed right to return this book if you are unsatisfied with the contents, for a full refund"
5. Stick stickers to your CDs.
6. Sneak CDs into the bookstore, slip one CD into each copy of the book, maybe use a little edge of the sticker overlapping the CD to affix it to the inside of the cover.
7. Visit every bookstore in town, make sure every copy of the book you find has YOUR CD in it as well.
8. Sleep soundly, knowing that you are a SUPERHERO, and a Defender of Freedom and Justice in America.
9. Each time you drive past the offices of the publisher (if they're on your way to work or the grocery store or something), roll down your window, extend your fist, raise middle finger, scream "FUCK YOU! YOU FACSIST BITCHES!".
10. Spend hours reading Slasdot, posting more ideas on how to "fight the power".
Soylent Green is people!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
It is a little more complicated than that. Under the Maryland version, Maryland law applies. However, the enforcebility of the choice of venue clause was punted to the courts. In other words, a Maryland resident may be able to sue under the MUCITA; but, he may have to go to Washington state to do it.
Another state, Indiana-I think, said that any UCITA provisions is not applicable to residents of their state.
So the question of enforcability depends on the actual terms of the EULA, where you bought it, and the state you reside in.
Certainly the intend of this is to strip you of your right of first sale and redistribution of the book.
Depends on the actual terms of the EULA. The article doesn't make that clear. It appears that the major effect is to limit the number of returns.
Of course, I wonder what is to stop even a physical book from having a taped "seal" with a EULA that must be broken to open and read it?
Has already been litigated and found wanting. I don't remember the exact cite. The facts were that a publisher did put a clause on the front page that a book could not be sold below a certain cost. I store ignored it and sold below the stated cost. This was the case that articulated the first sale principle: the right to control distribution is limited to the first sale. After that, the holder of the copyright has no more control over that particular copy.
This was a big issue when TNT started to colorize old movies. Many directors, producers, etc felt that this was 'defacing' the work of art. However, there was nothing they could do legally since Turner bought the copyright to the movies and had the right to do with them what he wanted. There was a bill introduced in Congress that would give the artist control over the art even after he sold the rights to that piece of art.
Expect more of this type of tomfoolory in the future. UCITA only applies to computer information transfers e.g. hardware is not explictly covered. However, there was a cluase in MUCITA that allowed sellers of hardware/software to opt to have the EULA also apply to the hardware. For example, a DVD disk with player software.
If more states pass some version of UCITA and the definition of "hardware" can be extended, everything will have some portion as software with a click-wrap license.
I feel like picking a fight with everyone who thinks they are right. - Rainmakers
Thank you for puchasing legal defense for dummies. By breaking the seal on this book and reading the contents, the consumer of information, forwith refered to as the customer, signifies consent to a non-disclosure agreement whereby they will not discuss the contents of this book. If the customer chooses to do so, they will recognize that they have purchased the right to rent the ideas contained whithin the book, and will forwith pay the authors $500 remuneration for said rental. Failure to do so may result in confiscation of all media, biological or otherwise, within which this information is stored....
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It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
How do you finish a 10 chapter book you can only get
Write to the publishers. Ask them for another CD.
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It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
I'm both a professional programmer and a fairly accomplished writer. Although I wholeheartedly agree with your statement that writers deserve fair compensation, I must take issue with your position on programming. Software design is anything BUT "mindless robotic number crunching." Apparently, you haven't taken the time to open your eyes to the mass of highly creative software projects surrounding you. I find it disturbing that you have tossed two completely unrelated topics into the same bucket, while taking crack shots at the programming community. Get a clue or get left behind. And try sticking to the topic when Slashdotting. Incidentally, I'm sure I don't have to mention the manner in which Charles Dickens was paid...
If it ain't broke, improve it.
Was the CD OS independent? Or was it "for Windows X.X or better?"
Tell me if anyone else has noticed this trend;
You; I don't think that this particular business practice is right or ethical and may not buy this company's products.
Them; (totally out of the blue) Business people/artists/software programmers have a right to be compensated!
This isn't the first time where I've heard someone launch into a rant about a creators need for compensation when that wasn't even what the conversation was _about_. The fact that so many people make this mistake so often makes me wonder how this particular response became so conditioned .
Incidentaly, I know that authors wrote to be compensated. I think much of Dicken's writing would have been a blessed bit more breif if he wasn't being paid by the word.
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It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
Is there perhaps some law that can apply here? Maybe the one about "Not providing services advertised" or something like that?
I am not sure if that is correct, I believe at most all that is required would be a license to do business in the given state, and that's just a few hundred dollars typically.
You might want to have your publisher include something like this in the shrink-wrap license for the CD-ROM:
I'm sure your publisher's lawyers can come up with something similar that will make both your publisher and your readers happy.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
That isn't the point. If I pay money for a printed book, you better be giving me the whole damned thing printed. If I want something in electronic format, I'll buy it that way. Suppose you bought a long movie like, Gandhi or Braveheart. What if the first half came on DVD and the second half came on VHS? This wouldn't irritate you, not too mention make you say WTF? This is stupid, damned stupid.
Who's Robin Heinlein? Is he related to Robert?
Best Slashdot Co
IAAL: states that have passed UCITA, 2: MD, VA(http://www.cpsr.org/program/UCITA/ucitastates.h tml). 29 attorneys gerneral oppose it. It's bad law and everybody knows it!
To mail me, remove the 'mailno' from my email addy.
To mail me, remove the 'mailno' from my email addy.
"Yeah. It smells, too..."
...Pavlov's dog...
(Stolen sig) Remember: it's a "Microsoft virus", not an "email virus", a "Microsoft worm", not a "computer worm
Granted but what is just paranoia now is still legally enforceable in the future (as long as shrink wrap licenses aren't made void).
Just because your paranoid doesn't mean there not after you.
First off I would be interested to know the publisher's slant on the issue.
Next, like most people I would be annoyed if I picked up a book that was partly there and partly not. If it is really a cost issue then the publisher should do like O'Reilly and offer a choice of a printed version or a CD version of the text. Another way that can be used to reduce the cost of a book is to use cheaper paper - like that used in paper-back novels. If using this sort of paper meant reduced costs along the line, then I would certainly consider buying the book - books tends to go out of date so fast that the bleached white paper is almost a waste of resources and cost so much. There was Unix guide that used this cheaper paper and for a 1000 pages cost on $25 (canadian) and that is cheap for a computer book here in Canada, most cost around $60 (Canadian).
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
it might be that the author didn't have a choice by the publisher, Great, so we have a print version of the RIAA on our case now, huh?
Moo
This is precisely what more than a few legislators who have voted for the law gave as the primary reason. They want corporations to set up shop there so that more bribe^H^H^H^H^H jobs are funneled into the state, and the consumer be damned.
It's really a sad state of affairs, no? And what's worse, the rest of the world is slowly but surely starting to follow the US' lead in this area...
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Yep, and they hold copyrights for a rather obscene stretch of time (far longer than most corporations are even in business, though between the average life expentancy of a person and the additional 70-odd years it takes for a copyright to expire). Personally, I'm more of the belief that it should extend to 50 years or the dissolution of the corporation, whichever comes first, though I know a lot of people will disagree with me on the time limit. By the way, currently the limit is 90 years, and the copyright extends even beyond the corporation's dissolution.
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That won't be enough. If you don't hire a lawyer to protect your IP, someone else can hire an IP lawyer to take it away from you. It's really a great system; this way, the IP lawyers make more money. Since the most successful IP lawyers get to be IP judges, IP law is constructed in such a way as to ensure that there is work for IP lawyers. I like to think of the IP lawyers as the tailors of the emperor's new clothes.
The VAT only applies to the value of the CD, not the value of the book.
I am one of the authors of the book that started this discussion. UCITA and your rights aside (not to dismiss them, I just don't have any expertise in that area), I thought I should explain the decision behind putting part of the book on the CD. Originally this book was supposed to be under 400 pages, and as we were writing it, it quickly became apparent that this was not going to happen. The final book was around 800 pages (with the front matter/index and everything else). Doubling the size of the book is obviously a large impact on the cost of publishing the book (the first edition of a book that OnWord has no guarantees of how well it will sell). Increasing the number of pages would have been possible, but it would have also raised the price of the book. We did not want the price to go out of the reach of the people it was written for. We worked with OnWord Press to do two things: increase the number of pages (and they really came through--bumping the page count to over 600 pages), and figure out how to compact the book into the fewer number of pages. We made decisions that I sometimes hate to look at, squeezing text and graphics onto fewer pages wherever we could, and we were still 100 pages over. Finally the decision came down to putting some of the material on the CD, or trying to cut 100 pages out of the book. Rather than leave that much material out of the book, the editor and I made an (admittedly quick--we wanted this to be available in a timely manner to give information about the new release) decision to put the last chapter and two appendices onto the CD. I (still) think that this was the best decision for the readers of the book. I do regret that we didn't put the entire text of the book onto the CD (something that occurred to me after we made the CD and went to press), which would have allowed full text search, and reading from the computer (if you are into that). I am sorry about the licensing/rights issue, and I think that I have a solution to this problem. I have spoken to people at OnWord Press, and they share my concerns. They have guaranteed that we can put the PDF versions of these chapters on their website (www.onwordpress.com) within the next two weeks, where people can download them prior to opening the CD. Yes, this means that people will be able to read those even if they haven't bought the book, but I would like to think that all it will do is become good advertising for the rest of the book ("hey--if you like this, then get the rest of the book"). I am sincerely sorry about the inconvenience that this decision has put on the readers of this book. I hope that this is helpful for you.
You've got cable in the UK, you b*****d, I hate you :). Where do you have to live to get that?
It does cut down on the practice of buying a book, reading it, and then returning it. Basically, I do not agree with this practice, as if it is a bad product, you should be able to take it back, but in a state with UCITA, practices such as these will allow publishers to make substandard texts and then not take a loss from returns.
You say you want a revolution....
I couldn't agree more. Programming (for those that take it seriously) is both an art and a science. This guy really p****d me off. To say there is no element of creativity in developing software is a sign that this guy is way off the mark and hasn't the faintest idea of what is involved in developing software.
No. I don't buy books from the publisher generally. Consumers buy books from the retail outlets of some sort that the publisher sold them to. The publisher already got their money whether the book fits my needs or not. If I wanted an electronic book (which I despise the whole idea of) I would have purchased it in that format. If I ever obtain a printed book where some portion of the text is only on a CD I will return it ASAP and raise holy hell with everyone involved from the bookstore to the publisher to the author. I am not saying it should be illegal to publish a book in this extremey rude manner, but it should be CLEARLY and PROMINENTLY spelled out right on BOTH covers that pert of the book os ONLY on electronic media. Sorry to rant, but its akin to taking a crap and only finding out after its too late that there's no toilet paper!
(Stolen sig) Remember: it's a "Microsoft virus", not an "email virus", a "Microsoft worm", not a "computer worm
I think the explanation that the book wasn't done before it went to press is most likely the closest to reality. Plus the fact that OnWord Press was purchased by Thomson Learning and folded into Delmar in June of 1999, may have thrown a wrench into the books production-- screwing up the schedule and passing it between production people who don't care about it. Also, a company in financial straights, such as OnWord for the last four years, will be looking to save every nickle it can on a book, just to stay solvent.
t .asp?FactsheetId=15
Working in publishing, I can tell you that the reason for the stupid seal and non-returnability clause for the CD is that publishers are afraid (as are software companies) that the consumer will simply copy the contents of the CD to their drive, and then return the book/CD for a refund. This is why ebooks will not be returnable, and why publishers are starting to LOVE the idea of ebooks...we've had great success with the non-returnability of amazon.com books (they get a steep discount, in exchange for having to eat the returns), and would love to lessen the hit we take when a bookstore orders 500 copies of a book, and then coughs them all back to us in two weeks when they don't sell.
Here's the contact info for the Delmar publisher if you want to complain directly: Greg.Burnell@delmar.com
http://www.thomsonlearning.com/press/showfactshee
See, if you'd read your English Lit text before returning it, you'd have known that Shakespeare was a playwright and poet, not a novelist, and that Longfellow was an American poet (Gitche Gumee was not in the Lake District).
And, of course, if you'd read any sci-fi you'd probably have known Heinlein's first name was "Robert" and that Verne lived in the 19th century. (See, that's why it's considered remarkable that he wrote about things like submarines, because he was "anticipating". Can you say "anticipating"? Try it now. I knew you could).
Maybe you need to exercise those intellectual muscles a bit before attempting the heavy thought bits, eh?
Or maybe you knew all this, because your post is starting to seem like one of those, "Find everything wrong in this picture" puzzles, like an IHOP placemat.
This next song is very sad. Please clap along. -- Robin Zander
As far as I am aware the VAT has to applied to the full value of the book - so if you publish a £10000 book and attach a CD Single you have to pay VAT on the full value of the book - not just the CD single value. This is to avoid all computer software being a manual with a free CD to demonstrate the program.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
I bought the Perl series on CD from O'Reilly specifically BECAUSE they printed it in electronic format. Instead of lugging 3 books around I can stick them on my private password-protected webserver and reference them whenever and whereever I wish since they are in html. It's come in handy more than a few times.
explaining exactly why you are returning it (i.e. "Don't agree to licensing terms").
Sorry, but this is not exact. A more complete description would be "the last chapter is not printed." And that's what you actually pay for, that all the book's content is printed and not on a CD.
Just my .02 euro.
A monkey is doing the real work for me.
I'm surprised there aren't already a hundred posts in this thread containing THIS LINK TO THE RIGHT TO READ STORY
The practice of cutting out part of the hardcopy and putting a shrinkwrap license on the CD-ROM is appalling, but there is a possible explanation for it besides an intent to defraud the public. Under current US law, there is a hefty inventory tax on unsold books. This gives book sellers a significant interest in avoiding returns, and gives publishers an incentive for dropping unpopular books. IMHO we need two legal changes: 1. A Federal law negating the more obscene provisions of UCITA, including shrinkwrap licenses 2. Repeal of the inventory tax, at least on textbooks and technical manuals Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz IANAL
Without breaking the seal, thereby voiding your rights, how do you get this information? From the sound of it, the only information provided was "Book Continued on Companion CD-ROM."
Edward Burr
Edward Burr
Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
The 100 pages of PDFs include the final chapter of the text as well as 2 appendices.
This last chapter covers plotting methods and controls (very important in the creation of maps!) and there is no valid reason to exclude it from the printed material.
Also, the book weighs in at a not-very-hefty 550 pages, and the list price is over $50 US, so I don't think publishing expense is a valid argument for this tactic.
In the UK books are exempt from VAT (Value Added Tax) at 17.5%. However, this does not apply if the book has a CD-ROM inside the back cover. So for anybook including a CD you're paying 17.5% over the odds. Now that's unfair! How many people ever actually use the CD included anyway - as most code samples are usually available on the publishers web-site. Including the actual text of the book only on the CD is criminal!
... to the last 100 pages, doesn't the publisher have the right to have you KEEP the book? Shouldn't you know before then that it is not fot you?
Not everyone wants information to be free....
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain with all your metadata.
First, on your question of UCITA; it depends on which state the "contract" of the EULA is written to apply in, not what state you live. Hence, when it becomes law in Maryland (which will happen first), even though I may be in say New York, and the company selling me something is in say Colorodo, they can still construe their EULA to be under "Maryland law".
Incidently, since different states appearently are all modifying UCITA in slightly different ways, the fact that some states have chosen to add consumer protections does not mean you nessisarly have them, even though you may be living in such a state. One could still have the EULA construed under a less friendly state's version of the law.
Certainly the intend of this is to strip you of your right of first sale and redistribution of the book. This is fundimentally wrong for several reasons; first, even in article I of the constitution, "copyright" as stated is both a limited right that "expires", it is neither property nor "permenant", regardless of the illegal action of our congress in the Sony Bono copyright extensions.
Altering a seal is a permenant action, and to deny further distribution or rights forever based on it seems inconsistent. Similarly, the DMCA allows for "access controls" on "copyrighted works" which remain in effect even if the copyright on a given work being so protected expires as intended!
All these efforts are clearly unconstitutional in this country and against the very notion of basic human rights, the right to communicate ideas, the right to think, things that are most basic of all.
Of course, I wonder what is to stop even a physical book from having a taped "seal" with a EULA that must be broken to open and read it?
The article author here appears to have bought the book over the internet, so previewing the book was not lost on him, but there are easy step to fix this: return the item, explaining exactly why you are returning it (i.e. "Don't agree to licensing terms"). Write to the book's *author* (not the publisher; authors are generally easier to get a hold of particularly) and ask why he released his book as such, and explain that it is a bad practice... it might be that the author didn't have a choice by the publisher, or was unaware of the final distribution, etc. Since the book has a limited audience (AutoCad) make sure that you post negative reviews wherever you can about the book to prevent others from making the same mistake.
Having a license on the CD, assuming that the CD has programs, is understandable. But IM(IAMAL)O, you bought the text, you have every right to use the text (including the PDF) in a format that follows from fair use. This is definitely a scary trend, and there's no way I can see it being useful save in cases where one or two chapters of a book cover something that does need licensing agreements (say, a piece of software uniquely distributed on the CD that is explained and used throughout a given chapter). The only way to fight it, as it appears to only be useful to computer topics, would be to simply outright ban books that do such, and make sure other professionals do the same, writing the various book authors at length.
Thank goodness this doesn't sound like anything ORA would try to do...
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
I believe thats what it is when theres a second or third edition of a book.
Maybe the book wasn't finished when it went to press? That disclaimer is pretty standard for enclosed software.
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GetSystemMetrics(SM_SECURE) == FALSE
Next time that you are at the local public library just try and check out a copy of MS Office or any other piece of evenly remotely expensive software .
Their EULAs prevent it but unlike many 'static' digital media ( non executable informtaion ) distributors , software companies do go out of their way to prevent libraries and other information outlets from lending their materials out . Remeber You don't own MSOffice after the purchase , you merely have a license to use THEIR copy of the software .
Your Squire
Squireson
This would be doubly annoying if the PDF files are raster images, rather than text. If it went into PDF as text, you can get Adobe's plug-in for the visually impaired, and export to a TXT or HTML file. You'll have wrap, edit, and do some formatting with an editor, but at least the file is now readable and portable.
The PDF raster images are a nightmare to convert. You have to print them and then scan them, and then start editing. And the files are so bloated that you can't easily move them around on the Net. It seems to me that the publishers are really being ugly if the PDF files are raster images, but only being cheap and lazy if the 100 pages went in as text and can be taken out as text. In the latter case, I think they'd end up losing any advantage they might think they have, due to illegal sharing of the material between interested parties, privately, over the Net.
hehe, I am in Coventry, just down the road from Birmingham, and we've got DSL :)
;)
;)
Trouble is to get connected, you've got to wait up to 8 weeks for an engineer to come out and install. It's a hundred quid all-in, and nice
BTW if you are into retro-gaming/vintage video game systems then Birmingham market is the place to go. I picked up a big pile (50+) VCS2600 carts for 20 quid the other week. Gotta love that TIA chip
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LollypopMan (n): 1. An emulator coder with awesome insight and an uncanny ability with all things binary.
2. A geek with a strange sense of humour with a slight smell of urine.
 3. Bringer of the funk.
http://mess.emuverse.com is a very nice place to visit for that warm and fuzzy feeling
No, I'm in the U.S. I'm just very aware the wrox folks are british, because I just got back fromt he Wrox Web Dev. Conference in Vegas. All those guys were British (I just dig the accents, and they dug my Okie one.)
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DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
Unlike mindless and robotic number crunching that is associated with programming, writing actually requires effort, creativity, and heavy thought You obviously have no idea what is involved in developing software. Your ignorance is rather sad.
Even if you're right it still sets a dangerous precedent. Just because OnWord is doing it only to cut costs won't in any way prevent another company from doing it for more nefarious purposes...
--john
The decision was made to put this text on the CD-ROM to reduce the overall price of the book and make it less "telephone directory" like (as it is, it will tip the scales at 1,200+ pages). These appendices were requested by people who felt that the first edition of the book assumed that the reader was able to program and understood Ohm's law. These appendices are not central to the theme of the book and are superfluous for many readers.
I feel that in this case, putting the appendices on CD-ROM was a good compromise. The information on them is not part of the overall book, but is important information for some readers. The same amount of work (and cost) was put into making the pdfs as if they were going to be pages.
The reason for going with the software copyright statement for the pdf appendices was due to feeling from the McGraw-Hill (who publishes my books) corporate lawyers that this was the most appropriate method of protecting the electronic text/files/format.
I've written eight books so far and in none of these cases, sending a partially completed manuscript is acceptable. I doubt McGraw-Hill is any different in this regard than any other publisher. Even with seasoned writers, not many publishers are willing to start the copyedit/layout process without a completed manuscript, there is just too much danger or later chapters requiring substantial changes in early chapters.
I suspect that the last 100 pages of Inside AutoCAD Map 2000 are appendices and site links that are actually very appropriate in pdf format. Anything else will get the book/author/publisher hammered on Amazon.com and other Internet resources (like /.).
The pdf of the last 100 pages was probably done for cost reasons, but before you judge the situation, let's get some facts on what is contained in the pdfs. If it is straight text, then the complaints are justified. If it is appendices with vendor/site links, then maybe consideration should be given as to whether or not this is an appropriate way for providing this information.
As the Human Torch used to say: "Flame On!"
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
I have to second you on that. The Right To Read came off as alarmist when it was first published a few years ago. But as time goes on, I find myself saying, "Richard (Chicken Little) Stallman was right."
No country that I am aware of has directly stated in law that people have the right to freedom of thought. They come at it indirectly, protecting other freedoms that are the outward manifestations of it. The closest are references to freedom of conscience. I's starting to wonder if it is time to have a repository online for time-stamped, encrypted documents containing our personal thoughts on various technical topics, just to protect ourselves from having something too similar claimed as someone else's intellectual property tomorrow.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
In my library (collage) they allow you to check out the book, and at the checkout desk they will ask you if you want the CD to go along with it. If you do then they will run back and grab it for you. They pretty much ignore the sticker over the CD pouch.
Bobbs-Merrill can in some ways be considered a "shrink-wrap" license case. In this case, the publisher Bobbs-Merrill had printed a novel, 'The Castaway' and had printed a notice in each book that it was not to be sold at retail for under $1. The Straus brothers, who owned and operated Macy's, sold the book at $0.89, despite the warning and were sued. The Supreme Court ruled that there was no contractual obligation between the 2 parties and copyright law did not grant the publisher control of the copies after they had been sold at wholesale. This finding is called the "first sale" doctrine.
Eventually, a modern "shrink-wrap"/UCITA vs. "first sale" case will reach the Supreme Court. Personally, I suspect "first sale" will win, though I'm not a lawyer...
The poster isn't asking them to release for free. He isn't even asking them to release electronically with the hidden motive of making free copies. He's asking them to make money the old-fashioned way: Print On Paper.
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Non-meta-modded "Overrated" mods are killing Slashdot
(Hey Ryan! Here's your proof!)
Going back several years I've seen chapter xx in IT books, with just one page saying see included cd rom. At least its for computer based materials like IT books where they can assume you can read pdf files.
This is just a standard way to reduce the amount of dead trees they use and is all about profit margins no more no less
They don't put the shnrink wrap license on their to stop you reading the offending chapter before you buy, its just the standard legal droids guff they use...theres no intentional harm here I'm sure
After all don't all cd roms usually have those shrink wrap agreements ?
Too much post Napster paranoia is going down here, this is just standard business practices no conpiracy, no deal to screw the consumer its just plain old cost cutting
What Happens when the book is hit while still on the shelf by a CD thief. I don't know how many times I've been looking at books and their CD's have been "Liberated" from them.
How do you finish a 10 chapter book you can only get 8 chapters of, or how do you read a CD in the John. These are questions the publishers should have asked themselves.
Thanks for the heads up, I know I'll be checking the last chapter in the next books I get!
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This is how copyrights work. They were not made to reward authors for their works; that part is only a means to the real end. The real end is to eventually enrich the public domain (this is why copyrights expire, although for human authors they only expire long after the person has died). It does this by providing authors a financial incentive, but in return for that incentive the author gives up some rights (such as control over how something is used by people who legitimately pay for it).
Corporations don't like giving up that kind of control; the sad fact is that ethics are rarely as profitable as unethical means. That's why they've been backing UCITA and the DMCA; they want to take legitimate rights away from the people all in the pursuit of The Almighty Buck. It's also why they have to be stopped; the government is supposed to exist primarily for our benefit, not theirs.
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I'm merely trying to be helpful, and such hostility!?
Here's another tip: Don't quit your day job. We can only hope you're a better programmer than writer.
Here's a little problem for you to solve: What are the odds that two people would decide to join Slashdot at the same time (as evidenced by their user numbers: pcparadis #238006 and yzxbmlf #238008); decide to read the same article and comment on it as their first posts to this forum. Not only do they both comment on said article, mr. yzxbmlf (#238008) decides to applaud mr. pcparadis (#238006). Coincidence? We think not.
Perhaps in future writing classes mr. pcparadis will learn to vary the color of mr. yzxbmlf's comments so as to better cloak their origin.
We'll be keeping an eye on you schizo boy.
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Yes, it's true. This man has no dick.
http://www.blitzbasic.com/
http://www.blitzbasic.com/
Graphics3D 640, 480
Oh please. Just how many authors, playwrights, and artists did it solely for the money? I'm would say that that's a mark of second-rate material. Just look at how many absolutely brilliant authors died poor and wretched. Take for example Herman Mellvile. None of his works were popular by any means of the word until many years after his death. Yet he wrote amazing stuff. And he wrote quite a bit of it too. So he obviously didn't do it just to be compensated. Some would say its almost a mark of a great artist that he's not apprieciated in his/her lifetime.
And as for your comment about programming, you obviously haven't ever attempted to programming. There is nothing robotic or mindless about programming. In fact it is the exact opposite. If you think that designing and writing good code doesn't require effort, then you are sadly mistaken. Programming is just like writing, writing badly is easy, writing well requires effort, time, and creativity.
I was tempted to mail in the business reply card ("What do you think of our textbook?") with a story about not being able to buy baby formula because of the $20 price hike for the FREE CD ;)
Is it possible (in the legal sense) for a machine to publish a book? What copyright protection does it's creation get? If I can get my PC to typeset and produce an entire book, say, of mathematical tables, with no human intervention (in the 'creation' part of the process), can Generic PIII PC and LaTeX get the credit, and the royalties?
"don't fall into the fallacy of believing that Perl can solve social problems. Maybe Perl 6 can, but that's a ways off"
Oog also have great deal on Sharp Pointy Stick. Come see new features of Sharp Pointy Stick v.1.2! Kill zebras to pay for hot shiny! But caveman better not make unlicensed Sharp Pointy Stick, or Oog go neanderthal on them!
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
So? You just remove the CD from the book cover by putting a slit in the bottom of the sleeve. You don't ever disturb the seal at the top of the envelope.
This method also works on CD-ROMs that are distributed in conventional jewel boxes with a tape 'seal' on the end. You just slip the hinges and never ever break the tape seal.
I recently did some research into UCITA, and the law contains provisions that would allow UCITA to be applied to any transaction involving software, including this book. One of the examples used was a furniture manufacturer including a CD-Rom detailing care of a piece of furniture with the purchase of, say, a chair. Because the transaction now includes information, it falls under the juris(my)diction of UCITA. Dirty and underhanded! Virginia and Maryland should be ashamed (they passed the damn thing)!
The software that the book is about, is a Windows only application. So I'd say it's pretty irrelevant whether or not the CD is designed with other platforms in mind. I think it's a fairly safe bet that people that run a windows app, have access to a windows machine.
"whatta ya mean my RedHat CD doesn't have apache for windows bin's on it???"
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke