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JFS May Make It Into 2.4
Grimsaado writes: "LinuxWorld has an article on IBM's JFS and how it might be included in 2.4 as well as some technical fluff on it's phenominal cosmic power." Heck, with the number of journaling file systems, it's like being at a file system buffet at this point.
Of course, this is only one application of Java.
.. well, sometimes worth it. Face it, Java had high hopes of being the 'platform independent' language.. now it just sucks and is slow. Caused in part by M$ muddying the waters its own different version of Java no doubt. And with Java applets and Javascript it's just a horrid horrid mess.
.. not to say that you're wrong, just that I don't agree. :)
And it's the only one worth a damn
PHP / ASP is what kicks ass on webpages for me. Clean, fast, efficient (well, PHP anyway - but I have seen ASP do nice things too).
Still, that's just my opinion
--
Delphis
Wasn't Linux 7.0 released just last week?
If Linus has a problem with ReiserFS, it is that he probably fears some of the exciting new ``disruptive'' concepts that Hans Reiser has planned. ReiserFS is truly innovative. For those interested in the innovations, there is a White Paper available. I'm sure that Hans Reiser's roadmap is what is scaring Linus. I'll be happy to see JFS make it into 2.4, but ResierFS deserves to be there too. I urge anyone with a slight interest to try out ReiserFS. I'm sure you'll agree then that it deserves a place at the table. I'm a late adaptor, and skeptical of new code (I used Xia FS for years after ext2 was available). If conservative old me can handle ReiserFS, anyone can.
Does the JFS on AIX do synchronous or asynchronous writes? I know they say that the linux version is async.
If you had, say, a 100gb+ RAID full of data, a full fsck would take a very long time, especially if it was a particularly active partition. With a JFS, as you should know, it takes a minute (maybe less) on a nice SCSI or FC RAID. Hell, Win2k's NTFS5 is (partially) journaling, and I haven't lost any data on Win2k due to a crash besides data I haven't saved. If JFS can't accomplish the same feat, then IBM isn't really trying.
We gain more than just filesystem integrity through crashes with the full JFS package, though, because we're getting the LVM. The only question is, will we be able to have partitions grow themselves automatically, like you can on AIX? Now that would be cool.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
-dB
"It if was easy to do, we'd find someone cheaper than you to do it."
Do you have a need for this? If so, and you have coding skills, you should start work on BFS for Linux.
That's why most of these projects get started - somebody had an itch they needed scratched.
> the changes that were being made
were radical enough that Linus refused to allow
them in relatively late in the development cycle
That's not exactly that. The changes were needed, but linus wanted an infrastructure that would support *all* the journaling file systems, and not only reiserfs. (The reiserfs patch was rather ugly too, but cleaning it wasn't sufficient)
But such an infrastructure have been defined by Alexander Viro, mostly for ext3, that was on the drawing board at this time, and was not really perfect for reiserfs (and in fact turned out to be quite bugged too). Hans Reiser had the feeling that all there was an ongoing conspiration to push its filesystem out of the kernel until ext3 was ready, and took grief of that.
The truth is unkown, people involved in that have bigger ego than signal 11 (if that's possible) and reiserfs 'commercial' background is probably costing it bit of support too.
Cheers,
--fred
1 reply beneath your current threshold.
I can see how you might want to use a filesystem on, say, a 1.8mb flash card or something, but I can see no reason why you'd want to use a journaling filesystem on a floppy disk. In fact, when I use a floppy to transfer files between UNIX systems (a very rare occurrence indeed) I don't even bother to use a filesystem; I just tar to the floppy device itself. Otherwise you have to go through the whole mount/umount procedure, possibly with a mkfs or an mformat in there someplace.
Anything smaller than, say, 40mb doesn't need a filesystem on it if all you're doing is shipping data around. There are still other filesystems (as others have noted.)
And finally, I can't see why you'd need a JFS for flash memory. You shouldn't be writing to it all that often. The odds of losing power during a write are exceptionally slim. And SRAM is fast enough to where it shouldn't be a big problem, but I can almost see a need for a JFS on SRAM. However, in an application where you don't have a hard disk, you probably don't have the RAM to spend on the LVM anyway, so you'll want to look more at something like ReiserFS or ext3 than you will want to examine something as large as JFS, anyway.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Admit it - Sun and all of their third party partners are just hoping if they glom together enough crap, the ensuing mess will somehow appeal to the less-enlightened by virtue of sheer hype.
As for "addressing scalability" - I can tell you from personal experience building sites that get 100 million+ hits a day, that Java isn't even on the option list for truly high volume websites.
No no, it's too obvious.
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
Yes. Not really. If I can get help from somebody competent, then I'd do it.
I think you both need to build a bridge and get over it. For all either of you know, ReiserFS and dosfs (or whatever it's called) had an interaction with a third piece of software (a driver, possibly) which took exception to some string in some PROM for a hard disk or similar.
Kernels are frightening and twisty places to be, linux's kernel is no exception, especially since there's so much code from semi-random sources. I'm not trying to malign linux or linus or reiser or your mom or anyone else, but I'm just saying that there's room for both of you to be essentially right here.
Oh, and BTW, xconfig should either be removed from the kernel distrib or made to work religiously. IMO menuconfig and xconfig should just be symlinks to the same TCL script, and when you call it with xconfig it should use Tk, but I guess that's just my opinion. If that were the case, then there wouldn't BE this problem of one config tool working, and one not.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Dude!! It didn't work on my system when the *only* change was the inclusion of reiserfs, giveing a very good indication that the problem was with reiserfs... Claiming otherwise is FUD.
Just because it works for your roommate with one setup does *not* mean it will work for every other setup. It's quite possible he's running an older version, a newer version, or a different test kernel.
It's quite obvious that reiserfs is not ready for inclusion the kernel code.
Ranessin
Well, IBM's "JFS for Linux" is based on their port of JFS for OS/2 (remember that?) as opposed to their JFS for AIX, which is what most people associate with the name.
The current JFS for Linux project is, for instance, still case insensitive. Hardly an acceptable situation for a UNIX filesystem, but hopefully one that can be fixed.
"I think you both need to build a bridge and get over it. For all either of you know, ReiserFS and dosfs (or whatever it's called) had an interaction with a third piece of software (a driver, possibly) which took exception to some string in some PROM for a hard disk or similar. "
Thank you. This just goes to show that till these quirks are worked out, reiserfs is not ready for the primetime.
Ranessin
And guess what ? If it's obvious, odds are I've heard it before.
At least you seem to know it's not pronounced Fox Pass. You're a rarity in that respect.
25% Funny, 25% Insightful, 25% Informative, 25% Troll
>What's really sad is that it's the many casual linux users -- people
who would use reiserfs if it were in the kernel, but are afraid of
kernel patches, or don't have the time to figure >them out -- who are paying the price.
It is not the fault of the kernel developers that Joe (L)user does not know how or have the time to patch the kernel.
This is a good chance to learn about patching the kernel.
Mojo
AFAIK JFS is both a journaling and a logging file system. Dunno what's the difference, but I remembered of this point, because they (IBM) said, this would be something special.
A monkey is doing the real work for me.
Theres more about this thing at http://www-4.ibm.com/so ftw are/developer/library/jfs.html. One irritating thing about it is that theres no support for floppy disks, or other small removable media. Understandable considering the system, but floppy disks are still quite handy. (Assuming the page I was reading is up-to-date)
http://twitter.com/onion2k
Sure, let's just piss in Hans Reiser's petunias. A lot of people I've talked to seem to thing that Reiserfs is the farthest along journaling filesystem and I'm sure including some other journaling filesystem in 2.4 would be a major poke in the eye for him.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The current 2.4.0-test kernel is getting very close, and Linus now appears to be only accepting bug-fixes and the odd self-contained driver. There is no way such fundamental changes could go in now.
I cannot read the article (as usual - slashdot effect), but from what I read from the IBM web pages, the JFS will be released under "an OSI approved license" - which means in plain english - not GPL, which means - Linus will not include it. period.
I also read that this JFS is a sort of a "cut" version from the full JFS that AIX have.. Anyone from IBM can shed some light on this issue?
Hetz (Heunique)
None of which can read/write BFS at this point, despite the fact that it's well documented in Practical File System Design with the Be File System by Dominic Giampaolo.
Grumble grumble complain complain...
Well, what can you do about setting up a database for us with your Java experience?
[Dead silence]
The biggest problem with Java is not with Java itself; it's with the naïve software engineers who only want to do "neato-cool" things with it. This makes Java engineers look more like effeminate interior designers.
Another problem with Java is its inherent latency. Java servlets perform, on average,at one fourth the speed of a comparable perl or ASP database. For instance, Winamp's entire server is run on Java servlets. It currently runs half as fast as Slashdot (which we already know, is kinda slow already). Add AOL's outdated unix server, a slow client computer, and an even slower connection, and you've got a really bad experience on the client side."Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
whose webmasters don't understand that there are vastly superior ways of building websites.
Really, Java has its uses, but JSP has got to be the most fractured and counterintuitive technology I have ever come across. Even on the most ra-ra Java websites, you can easily find serious critics of JSP.
Compare JSP to PHP generated pages for any application - there's no comparison with regards to simplicity, speed, and suitability.
Hell, even mod_perl is preferrable.
Calm down, man. You're getting all bent out of shape over a flame that wasn't even there.
Let's review: The original poster mentioned a rumour that was going around in hopes of getting clarification. He got that clarification along with some slightly-outdated information. And then you went apeshit over some perceived attack on IBM.
A simple correction would have sufficed.
Well, first of all, people routinely use ext2 with 45G or 60G drives (I have one), and it doesn't seem to be a problem. Furthermore, boot time can't be such a big issue for the kinds of customers IBM is targetting because many of IBM's AIX machines used to take from minutes to hours (!) on every boot just to get their SCSI subsystems up (I hope they have improve this by now); in comparison, the time for any fsck is negligible.
But most importantly, just because JFS spreads out the time for maintaining file system accesses doesn't mean you aren't paying for the time. Each day, the transactioning that JFS may cost you a few hours in computer time, compared to a system that doesn't do transactioning. And with JFS you pay that cost whether your system crashes or not. In fact, the more reliable your hardware is, the higher the cost of JFS.
So, would you rather lose a few hours of computer time every day, or lose a few hours of computer time on the very rare occasion that the machine was not shut down properly?
"Cool" maybe, but not very useful. Or are you in the habit of leaving most of your disk unpartitioned so that you can eventually grow into it? Last I used it, LVM/JFS couldn't even shrink file systems.
I think the popularity of JFS/LVM on AIX is rooted in particular idiosyncracies of IBM culture and limitations of the AIX operating system. On Linux, easy backup/restore, GNU parted, fast fsck, and fast boots give you more flexibility than LVM and JFS, with less runtime overhead and less complexity.
actually it started out as a correction. I went apeshit later while I was typing it and let it kind of get out of hand.
"We are not tolerant people. We prefer drastically effective solutions"
And having tried to install Redhat 6.2 (and 7.0) on a work machine. Neither of the installs did succeed. No one I knew could figure what went wrong. But the routing (kernels IP routing) just went trought the roof.
Yet I succeeded in installing SuSE 6.4, and it worked. I finally changed SuSE to Debian and it's apt-get delicacies.
Think about FUD, because not everything that goes against some things you hear or believe is FUD. Some things just break mysteriously on various places.
OB-Topic: I just can't wait for decent journalling filesystem in kernel. The LVM is already being shipped in Debian...
--
when everyone gives everything,
when everyone gives everything, then everyone everything will get
Scramdisk is currently being ported from Windows 95/98/ME & NT/W2k to Linux (by myself and AJ). This will allow the creation of a "virtual container" that can contain any filesystem - including filesystems that implement journaling.
"Mary had a crypto key, she kept it in escrow, and everything that Mary said, the Feds were sure to know."
Isn't the Reiser File System the most advanced of the journaling file systems? Linux already stated that it would NOT make it into the 2.4 kernel.
Keeping
"F-oh pah"
Anyway, I like the cut of your gib, and knight you Sir Faux Pas.
Rise Sir Faux Pas.
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
Don't denounce me for not knowing; I plead ignorance since the page can't load. But I hope JFS doesn't stand for what I think it does. (Java File System).
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
The JFS in AIX is all in assembly and is completely unportable, thats why the OS/2 version is being used.
BUT this is good! This is called progress, and this is called competition. File systems may seem moot, but I'm glad people haven't given up. Who better to poke the fire than IBM?
I think the future holds many things in file storage (perhaps we'll be using XML for data structure), and the more I hear about the basics of storage, the better I think computers will become.
----
The page is still slashdotted. In the JFS for Linux-FAQ's it says "We were able to get JFS on 2.5 list of items to be merged....", however, the JFS core team wants to wait until an alpha version is ready (a beta version is excpected ro be released this month) before any real attempts to make the JFS part of the (standard) kernel are made.
> it doesn't matter if you are busy, employed, don't know C or C++, or
> that the person telling you this has never even seen the kernel source code.
Well, I am busy, I am employed, I do know C and C++, and as a matter of fact, I'm reading up on kernel internals and working on a little hax0r that I think will be a very cool addition for the next developmental round if I can get it working. Now, if only Slashdot supported a killfile so I could say *plonk*
25% Funny, 25% Insightful, 25% Informative, 25% Troll
That was Ret Hat's distro number, which is different from Linux itself.
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Tough I'm not a specialist at all, I read an interesting article on it at Linuxgazette . Interesting technical information (datastructures etc...)
By the way, I got the link in a comment here at slashdot (some time ago).
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
He robbed me of three shipments of gold, the giddy-legged swine.
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
NTFS is not a journaling file system. Where do you get your information? Probably just wish it up. NT mounts a dirty file system and boots, while in the background it runs the file system fix up code. Truely a bad idea.
You are mistaken. JFS is fully journaled, both data and meta-data are journaled. Reiserfs only journals meta-data.
JFS is a good choice for business systems where the data is extremely critical, like financial data.
Troy
Actually, he heard right ;-).
You see, while JFS is available for OS/2 Warp Server for e-Buisness (Aurora, Warp 5 Server), it's not available for the workstation version of OS/2, OS/2 Warp 4.5 (Merlin with the kernel update fixpack).
So a project was put together to take the GPLed JFS code and get it to run on OS/2 4.5.
Steven E. Ehrbar
> Not allowed to.
Huh? Learn how to join the kernel mailing list
Been there. Done that. All of the decisions are actually made off-list. The list is a decoy.
> And then ignore your patches.
Hmmm, maybe that says something about the quality of your coding... (i.e. it sucks ass)
And who are you, exactly? Some expert in ass-sucking? Getting patches and ideas rejected by The Posse (Viro, Cox, Tso, Molnar, etc) doesn't mean they're bad. To date, it's meant that they tickle an ideological allergy to things not posix. For instance, even though Linus stated he wanted a clean way to suppor streams in Linux, in order to support existing filesystems, The Posse wouldn't let it happen, and even went out of their way to stifle the debate. Ask Cox about his kill file sometime. He won't even include fixes to printk to provide 64-bit support (in spite of the fact that linux is supposed to run on 64-bit machines, like UltraSparcs).
Just because they're the current in-crowd dosn't make them right. For instance, Linus refuses to let a kernel debugger be included in Linux. He, and a number of morons on the kernel list, say that printk is all you need to debug the kernel. Yeah, okay. But then support for printing 64 bit numbers in printk is rejected, meaning that it's actually impossible to debug 64-but data structures with the recommended method, printk. It's all sort of silly. I can't wait to see 2.4.0-pooch-screw-37.
I can understand that Linux doesn't have a design, that's it's evolved as it's coded. But it could at least have a philosophy. Currently (2.4.x) it just has problems, and the Mindcraft benchmarks to refer to.
________________________________________
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
I'm LOSING karma with this one, not gaining it. I do need some deficit, otherwise I'll make an Icarian flight.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
It's a lot cheaper to spend an extra, say, $50,000 buying faster hardware when you spec and purchase the system originally than to lose the hypothetical "thousands of dollars a minute" waiting for a ten to fifteen minute fsck, especially if it happens more than once.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
tracert [-h x] [server's IP]
where "server's IP" is the IP address in question, and -h sets the maximum hops to take (x being the number of maximum hops). The hops switch really helps if your connection is being tossed around.
Here's a sample printout of a tracert:
E:\>tracert authorize.quake3arena.com
Tracing route to authorize.quake3arena.com [192.246.40.56]
over a maximum of 30 hops:1 30 ms 30 ms 20 ms 10.9.2.1
2 30 ms 20 ms 30 ms 151.203.4.66 3 30 ms 40 ms 31 ms 205.171.38.161 4 30 ms 41 ms 30 ms jfk-core-01.inet.qwest.net [205.171.30.85] 5 30 ms 30 ms 30 ms wdc-core-02.inet.qwest.net [205.171.5.235] 6 30 ms 40 ms 40 ms wdc-core-03.inet.qwest.net [205.171.24.6] 7 40 ms 40 ms 40 ms wdc-brdr-03.inet.qwest.net [205.171.24.70] 8 40 ms 40 ms 50 ms 205.171.4.238 9 40 ms 40 ms 40 ms sl-bb20-rly-4-3.sprintlink.net [144.232.14.13] 10 30 ms 50 ms 50 ms sl-bb21-rly-13-0.sprintlink.net [144.232.25.18]and so on, and so on, and so on, until the server's IP is finally reached. Tracert is really helpful for finding out which server is slowing down the connection.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
As previously stated JFS is released under GPL.
AIX's JFS contains licensed code from outside sources. Several years ago, JFS was redesigned from the ground up for OS/2 Warp Server. This version does not contain any encumbered code and was designed to be more scalable than AIX's version. This JFS first shipped last year with Warp Server for e-Business.
Therefore, the Linux offering of JFS is not the same filesystem you'll find on AIX, and you won't be able to share a JFS file system between AIX and Linux. (You will be able to share one between Linux and Warp Server.)
comparing linux disk performance to AIX disk performance, and placing the blame on the filesystem is inane - apples and oranges, at least...
btw, i've had to fsck an 11GB partition on ext2, literally took over an hour. thanks, but no thanks (and i still lost data).
explain to your boss why your system is down for over an hour with just a momentary power blip, and see if the concept of journalled filesystems doesn't grow on you...
The 1/4 figure comes from the servlets at www.winamp.com taking 10 seconds to load, as opposed to the Slashdot perl scripts taking 2.5 seconds to execute.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Thats my biggest fs problem at the moment. The average home user can go make a cup of coffee while the machine fscks after a crash. Even our departmental server doesnt take that long. But just about the only time I've ever had to restore stuff from backups is when people have done
.tex
rm *
or similar. I do all this backup nonsense just to protect themselves against their own stupidity?
So, are any of the journalling FSs smart enough to rollback a journalled transaction to undelete a file? And provide user-level tools to do it?
I know there is the beginnings of undelete support in ext2 FSs, but its all very beta. Surely when designing a new FS you'd factor it in from the start...
Baz
Yeah, they'll add it by "accident" like with JFFS.
Hi, we're happy to announce the release of kernel 2.4.0-pooch-screw, wherein we screwed up the VM and VFS again, and occasionally even Ext2 gets scragged, but we tossed in another journaling filesystem.
Perhaps these guys are smoking cherry-flavored crack. What's the kernel list have to say about this? Viro? Care to chime in? so they're working with "the community" to get it included, in spite of the fact that the thrid feature freeze is on?
________________________________________
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
Heck, with the number of journaling file systems, it's like being at a file system buffet at this point.
Mmmmm.. all you can eat inodes.
My take on the article is that there are several journalling file systems available, and one of them MIGHT be in 2.4 at some point in time. Further, the author believes that IBM may have a go at it for pretty lame reasons (mostly having to do with physical location of the IBM JFS).
Another non-news article brought to you by Slashdot.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
If /. did mirror sites, then that could take ad revenue away from the said site. There is also copyright issues.
The basic sleazeware produced in a drunken fury by a bunch of UCBerkeley grad students was still the core of BIND. --PV
Funny, the page loaded really fast for me - doesn't look slashdotted...
--
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
ibm's porting their jfs initially - ibm's logical volume manager is not going to be available at the same time...
aix jfs does async journalling.
if NTFS is journalling, why does it take so long to replay the log? CHKDSK takes too long for a journalled filesystem!
the JFS code on AIX is radically different from the JFS code in OS/2 or the code that has been open sourced.
I use ext2 on a 40G drive, and if it has to fsck it takes long enough that the screen blanker kicks in. It's a royal PITA.
Bingo!
This came up months ago on the kernel list - simply the weekly summary, even.
Journalling requires changes in the VFS. Rather patch the VFS many times for each member of the 'buffet' of journalling filesystems becoming available, Linus said he'd prefer to find the common elements, and make VFS "journalling-ready".
The individual journalling filesystems would have to work with the new VFS to make sure it was suitably changed, and to make sure their code would work with it.
This sounds like the correct approach to me, even if it does delay things a bet. Better than letting ad-hoc adaptations creep into the kernel.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
because he thinks so too, that reiserfs might go in when the 2.4.x is stable.
/jarek
This workstation software not only includes JFS, IBM Desktop on Call (remote control software), Star Office and Lotus Smart Suite .. but the same SMP which is in Warp Server for e-business is also available as an option.
Not too shabby.
Regards,
Bob St.John
Does eComStation (eCommStation?) have a market beyond OS/2 upgrades?
All I hear about it is a (sort of) upgrade from OS/2 Warp 4. But it could be because I am not in the circuit of huge parks of company computers.
__
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Hmm .. is Scramdisk Linux opensource then? I use e4m since the source is available. I never use any crypto products where the source hasn't been submitted to open peer review ..
it's in my head
PHP is relatively cross-platform if you do it right, and ASP can be converted to PHP ;)
What's the point, eh lad?
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
Journaling file systems are explained quite clearly in the article.
>AFAIK you cannot call COM directly
> from PHP (i may be wrong). Whoops, you're correct. Coversion for simplistic scripts only. The King of the World is getting old in these shoes and forgets details ever more lately. I'll go attack New Zealand, that's always good for spot of fun. Watch them scatter.
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
There's little need for your "matter of fact"
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
Of course, then we'd probably end up slashdotting Google itself...
--
Never mind Spamassassin. When's Spammerassassin coming out?
You bastards.
From http://oss.software.i bm. com/developerworks/opensource/jfs/:
"JFS is licensed under the GNU General Public License."
Your subject line is correct - you are spouting typical JAVA-FUD...
Jon Katz - the worlds biggest waste of time and bandwith.
As any yacht captain will tell you, you'll never lead the pack with a full load of bilgewater. The same is true in programming languages: if you don't get down-and-dirty with the low-level, the end result is guaranteed to be inefficient. This is why the naïve Java programmers can never build anything low-lag with a JDK.
Okay, reality check time: Java is at the bottom of the database barrel as far as performance and reliability go. Just see winamp.com's database structure (that is, if the site is running at all!). They use Java servlets. The average latency for a query on a 60K/sec connection is 10250ms; four times as slow as PHP, ASP, and Perl.
My suggestion to you is to take those blinders off, stop trying to say "Sun Solaris 7!" with the effeminate lisp, and start learning some worthwhile database APIs.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Floppy Disks? What are those? I thought that slot on my computer was to insert my credit card for e-business transactions! No wonder the card worked only once before getting scrambled.
Isn't that how Vader pronounced it?
Foooooooohhhhhh... paaaaahhhhhhhh...
IBM's just getting press. Go out and download reiserfs...it truely rocks. I use it on my production servers, at home and on my mp3 player. Highly recommended.
"E Pluribus Unix"
Someone has changed RedHat 7.0 to allow you to install ReiserFS during boot.
http://cambuca.ldhs.cetuc.puc-rio.br
Well, 'you dumb fuck', I just said that that is my opinion and I was responding to someone saying that they use servlets to create webpages, I like to do my webpages differently.
/. for a while now and I'm used to seeing people like you get on their high horse and flame away - flatly refusing to accept that there can be BETTER alternatives to a technology they have become used to. I have dealt with Java and I don't like it, simple as that. It's evident to me seeing Java progress from a language with promise to what it is now that it didn't quite hit the mark, both in terms of performance and platform-interoperabilty.
Yes, I have a low UID on here - I've been reading
If Java and servlets work for you, that's great and I'm honestly very happy for you. I personally am happier using PHP or the like to produce my webpages.
Now I can see from other posts around on this thread that this is something of a holy-war yet again.
Get the java-bean out of your ass and move on. Please.
--
Delphis
Windows NT has had a journaling filesystem since day 1 with NTFSv1.1
Its about time Linux included a standard journaling filesystem with a sort of "plug-in" support. Windows 2000 offers this, which leads to things like EFS. I don't see why Linux couldn't offer the same level of functionality as well.
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Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
So, for anything that is critical or costly, you need redundant hardware and replication anyway. Once you have that, you are already protected against downtime from running an fsck should the need ever arise. There is no need to slow down your (replicated) systems additionally with JFS for a very marginal benefit.
Fsck on ext2 is pretty fast, crashes are very rare for server systems, and servers require regular backups anyway. It is more rational to run integrity checks in batch mode when necessary than to pay overhead on every file system access to deal with the possibility that the machine might crash at any moment. I think JFS (and its companion, LVM) are simply not good engineering tradeoffs for most (all?) applications.
It seems these days that everything is getting into the Linux kernel. While this is great, I imagine there are going to be some newbiew that are thinking which should I choose, which is better. The answer is more of what are your needs.
I wonder how distros are going to handle this. If a distro includes only support for one, then a user will have to choose the distro based on the fs he wants, if they include all the user then has to choose which one he wants to use.
Since this is compiled into the kernel can you use more than one journaling file sytem at a time?
Can I have one partition using ext3fs, one using reiser, and one using IBM's jfs, and one using XFS? Not that I'd want to though.
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
I heard that somebody was re-porting it to OS/2. How is it going?
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
And how much do you pay Slashdot for the service that you receive?
That's right nothing. So quit yer bitching.
You dumb fuck, JavaScript has nothing to do with Java. Nothing! Absolutely nothing! The only thing in common is the name. And as for applets, they're just the tip of the Java iceberg. I suppose you've never heard of servlets, or seen the Java in prolific use by companies like Oracle.
Instead of simply laughing at you and moving on, I'm giving you a tip: try to at least learn about the technologies you pass off as useless. I'm always amazed to see low UIDs associated with such thick-headedness.
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All generalizations are false.
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I like to watch.
Many aspects of Java's early hype (applets, Swing) suck, true, but it truly is the "language of the Internet". It takes much of the power of C++, adds an excellent standard library, and lets you ignore the low-level and worry about design. And it's the most purely OO language in use.
If Java is so "inefficient", I'm curious why it's supplanted Perl and ASP in both the UNIX and NT environments I've worked in. And while its not WORA, it is cross platform -- I compile servlets in NT, move them to test on Solaris, and then to production on AIX, and there's hardly ever a hitch. (When there is, it's usually due to inconsistencies in a DB vendor's software port. Nothing to do with Java itself.)
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All generalizations are false.
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I like to watch.
It seems to me that JFS is just BSD's SoftUpdates feature implemented in a different way. It only logs (journals) the meta-data transactions, there is no protection for the actual data itself.. You just get a really fast fsck.
From what I have seen of XFS, it is far superior technically. I have it running on my little server at home, and while it is DEFINATELY still beta quality, it has a hell of a lot of promise. ReiserFS also seems to outshine JFS in functionality and performance.
I just don't understand why this is really in development, other than it came from IBM so some suits might like it.
But hell, this is just my opinion, I could be (and often am) wrong.
-] Crow
I gave you a good example, isn't that enough? Go get the stopwatch and start browsing!
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
If you think that the 2.4 kernel is 'long overdue' then why don't you volunteer and help out the effort?
Not allowed to.
They get to tell you to fix your problem yourself.
And then ignore your patches.
________________________________________
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
I heard that what IBM is handing out here isn't their "real" JFS, but some lesser thing hacked together and called JFS.
And I've just told you pretty much everything I know about it, so don't bother telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about--I am aware of that. Maybe someone closer to it could clarify.
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Liberty uber alles.
Read the article and then, if that's not enough info, go to your favorite search engine and search for JFS.
Please don't add comments to a story without having a point or anything interesting to say.
Actually, a fully-journaled filesystem will journal the actual data as well as the meta-data (JFS can do this, for example). NTFS has muddled the current terms used to describe "journaling filesystems" a bit; at least according to the dinosaur book a "journaled filesystem" should journal all data, and not just meta-data. A journaling filesystem that only does one (or the other, I suppose) is partially journaling.
Of course, it's expensive to journal all data...
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
Actually, Linux 7.0 has been out for a while - I dunno why it was big news last week.
:)
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"Hey, the last 9 months I programmed on this superduper filesystem and it will be great for the next Linux Kernel!"
"Erm.. yeah, great but the VFS layer isn't up to par so we can't use your functionality in the rest of the system anyway"
Besides that... Linus isn't stupid. He already mentioned a zillion times he wants to end the featurecreep and finish the kernel. Now adding another filesystem will definitely delay the kernel's release BECAUSE of featurecreep, something Linus wants to avoid.
But.. with a better design of the system internals, this wouldn't have to be necessary: IBM would just add another module and everything would have been fine. ah well...
Good old.. mr. Tanenbaum ;)
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Java is good for plenty of stuff.
Java Servlets for instance is very widely used as the backend for a lot of websites that need something persistant as opposed to just scripts. It works well, and is very powerful.
Of course, this is only one application of Java.
This seems like as good a place as any.
There was a long discussion about this
a while back on the kernel list. Basically,
ResierFS needs to patch some very central
parts to kernel file system code. My
understanding was that the part of the kernel is
extremely integral to all file systems, not just
ReiserFS, and the changes that were being made
were radical enough that Linus refused to allow
them in relatively late in the development cycle.
This effectively forced ReiserFS out of the
kernel until the next kernel revision. Based on
this, it is conceivable that if a journaling file
system could be rolled out that didn't mess with
much integral to the kernel. It might make it into
the 2.4.x kernel. I would be surprised if we saw
it on the initial release though.
--wyn
as far as I have read on kernel threads (http://kt.linuxcare.com) there will be no journalling systems in 2.4, initially at least.
This is kind of an odd announcement especially with the kernel in its current 'slushy' state.. I am guessing that 2.4.X with X>5 before the first journalling systems begin to appear.
Isn't it just a tad late to be importing a new and fairly significant chunk of code into the stable kernel ? Especially considering that 2.4.0 final is already long overdue. (at least according to public expectations, I know that the only real release date announced is 'when it's done')
25% Funny, 25% Insightful, 25% Informative, 25% Troll
The latest drops however have implemented the case sensitive mode and made it the default.
For those interested the you can get on the jfs-discussion mailing list by sending email to Majordom@oss.software.ibm.com with the following command in the body of your email message:
Information on IBM's OSS projects can be obtained from http://oss.software.ibm.c om/ developerworks/opensource/And as far as the "buffet" of Filesystems goes: choice is always good, lots of choices even better.
Post anonymously - For when your opinion embarrasses even you!
Even though this is the mecca of All Things Linux, there are certainly a few people here (myself included) who don't immediately recognize "2.4" as the upcoming version of Linux...
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
- The current JFS for Linux project is, for instance, still case insensitive. Hardly an acceptable situation for a UNIX filesystem, but
hopefully one that can be fixed.
actually, if you'd go look, you'd see that as of release 13 of JFS (September 29, 2000) is now case sensitive. But I suppose you can't be bothered to research something before you flame about it.Having been a contractor at IBM in Austin, and having spolen personally with some of the AIX developers and their managers, I can state that IBM groks open source. (at least the departments I've had contact with did) IBM's JFS may not be the most mature journalling filesystem for linux out there, they aren't claiming to be, but it is another one. When it's all done, we'll probably have a couple of jfs's left (one that only journals meta-data, and one that journals both data and meta-data) and they'll likely have incorporated the best pieces of the jfs's that have fallen aside. Isn't that what it's all about? So all you people who spread doom and gloom about IBM and open source, just stop it. We're sick of it ok?? What about Sun?? They've pissed on the open source community and yet what of them? Oh, that's right... they're not IBM. Evil big blue brother IBM. get off your high horses and accept that they're doing something good for you.
"We are not tolerant people. We prefer drastically effective solutions"
I gave you a good example, isn't that enough?
Are they on the same kernel, the same hardware, the same load, the same pipeline, the same setup? Do they serve exactly the same number of images/words/files to exactly the same concurrent number of users?
If the answer to these questions is no then it is not good enough.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
The biggest problem with Java is not with Java itself; it's with the naïve software engineers who only want to do "neato-cool" things with it. This makes Java engineers look more like effeminate interior designers.
...no it's a load of bollocks. Go and work at a decent sized company and you'll soon realised that rarely does anyone get to do "neato-cool things".
Good point....hang on
Another problem with Java is its inherent latency. Java servlets perform, on average,at one fourth the speed of a comparable perl or ASP database.
Nice figure, one fourth, even better if you can give me a source. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that all we ever here is the Java servlets now running as fast or faster than native C++ bullshit and it would be nice to see some test which prove otherwise. You have got a source haven't you?
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Malda doesn't have to give a crap. I'm reminded of a comedian back in the day, talking about why Tyson was such a prick. He said, "Of course he's an asshole! If I was worth that much money at his age I'd be an asshole too. When I got my student loan I was a dickhead for a day."
Make this Friday troll day. To find out why (and why Taco deserves it), click here
Be sure to read the IRC log to see just how much Taco really cares.
Go ahead moderators, take me down! Sooner or later, some changes need to take place around here. I used to be a 'kind' contributor. But I'm getting sick of every non-popular opinion being moderated down, no matter how well thought out, no matter how factual, no matter how much informatin is imparted. Some idiot will mark it as flame-bait because it isn't 'what the masses want'. PISS OFF!
Bite my yammer.
The article states that case sensitivity has yet to be implemented. I'm not sure I understand...
... and AIX's JFS is already case sensitive, so what's changed?
I would have thought that case insensitivity would be the sort of thing you have to put effort into developing -- and that case sensitivity is something that "just happens"?
Can anyone explain what I'm missing?
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Are you just pulling these numbers from the ether?
Wheres the 1/4 as slow come from?
Links, URL's, Papers something a little more backed up than just a figure?? Come on that is pure crap.
Java's Inherent latency???? Since when??
In case you didnt notice once a servlet is compiled into bytecode and everything gets cached into memory the damn things FLY since there is so little to really be done to process the servlet.
I think you are just countering a Anti-FUD post with more FUD.
Jeremy
I haven't tried the ReiserFS under LINUX yet, but I have used IBM's JFS under AIX, and I can tell you that it ROCKED. I never had a file-system go bad (no matter what happened to the system), and it was SUPER fast. It was on a RS6000/320 that I ran 13-person 2-d cad training clases on (via PC's runnin' X), and between the LVM and the JFS, I felt there was NOTHIN' that system couldn't do!
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
itty bitty living space!
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
(When I log out of my machine, I want to _know_ that the contents on it can be reached by myself only - no matter what any repairman, hacker or ... police, does)
it's in my head
This is like the promise of that RedHat boss who claimed last year or the beginning of this that 2.4 is going to be released in march 2000...
Linus just isn't going to let those journalled filesystems in until the VFS layer has been worked out so that the different fs's can share functionality instead of doing everything on their own.
ReiserFS is much more "advanced" in .. its readiness to be included in Linux (some people already use ReiserFS on Linux).
Still, the latest news I heard is that it won't be included in the 2.4.0 but sometimes later in a 2.4.x .
Given Linus latest mail "I will consider only bugfix patches", it seems quite likely.
IBM or SGI JFS may have more advanced capabilities (higher limits etc) but I think that they won't be ready to go into the kernel before 2.5.x..
I take it "JFS" stands for "Journaling File System". I have heard the term throun around for a while now, but I'm not exactly sure how a journaling file system is any different from a regular one. Yes, I'm not really heavy on the *NIX system stuff. I think there may be others on Slashdot who'd like to know what's so special about a JFS.
Ñ'
Isn't Open Source wonderful?
Native S/390 support and a journaled file system. I think we are seeing the beginnings of a new breed of Linux.
Surely if everybody used a proper web proxy
with a decent cache like an ISP's or JANET's,
then this would be much less of a problem?
http://blog.grcm.net/
Well thats just as scientific as it gets isnt it?
/. and its configuration.
,many servers /. actually has running the site.. do you see whereim going here?
/.'s to make perl scale.
/.'s
/., but I will take the configuration hassles of setting up the servers for servlets over getting mod_perl to work any day, then you ahve the whole portability thing, i can drop our business logic onto massive Sun machines running sun hardware at the drop of a hat and have damn near instant "scalability" as long as you design your applications properly, it works and given the threaded nature of Java and just the whole design from the ground up, im willing to bet that servlets are a better choice all around.
/. loaded 2.5 seconds sooner"
No clue what hardware/server/configuration Winamp is running, little clue about the actual setup of
Little clue of the networks bandwidth and load on the server and the statistics of the typical loads and times you checked these "two pages" little idea of just how
Perl is going to be quicker up to a point.
Then it takes really tight configuration like
However I say Servlets are equal to or better than Perl on a load like
I have no actual proof and im not going to even ATTEMPT to try some lame stuff like the "well this page over the INTERNET took xyz seconds to load" I mean really come on that is just totally invalid and so unscientific it hurts. Yeah you COULD be right and it COULD be but youd a traffic less LAN and tons of other variables youd need absolute control over. Now that said, heres my experience with servlets.
We have quietly rewritten portions of our applications business logic to use servlets instead of other technologies (ColdFusion) and just using CF for presentation.. the application served pages quicker and with a heavier load, to the point where it was easily visible. This is a highly tuned ColdFusion application versus some servlets which have not been tuned all that much.
The resulsts were enough to make me a believer.
Ive set up mod_perl and yes it can perform, obviously it can handle a site like
I have no hard data to prove anything, but im not going to feed people stuff like "well
Jeremyhell PLEASE dont take my word for it, but dont go spreading stuff like that please
Jeremy
'nuff said.
There comes a time in every man's life when he must say, "No mother! I do not want any more Jell-O!"
Well, duh, that's what tracert and telnet are for!
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Then why don't you just do a tracert to winamp.com and slashdot.org and subtract the ping times from the total time? You did graduate from elementary school, didn't you?
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
He says the editor may have just emptied the disk file prior to writing the new data. If it crashed in between, the journalled data would have been correctly empty. Nothing any journal file system can do about that, unless it also includes version control in some form.
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Infuriate left and right
Their lazy and unbelievable excuse that they just can't figure out a way to mirror sites before they are brought to their knees isn't something we should take anymore.
Slashdot was sold for over 90 million dollars, and they don't put any effort into making the site work for the users who gave them all that money, yet nobody seems to mind.
Show us you actually give a crap malda. Mirror these sites. You can do it if you try. Maybe not all, but most or many.