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Gamepro Talks About Indrema
Amigori writes "Gamepro has this article about the upcoming Indrema console. Its a basic article, but it does a decent job of explaining the system in an easy to read way." Talks about how they are expecting hackers to take apart the box (unlike the ZapStation: I asked about this at ALS and was told that they are doing stupid things like encrypting their file system, despite the fact that it is super cool and runs Linux and screams "Hack me Hack me!" and hackers would just love to rip that thing apart and make it better. The next generation of Linux devices is going to be interesting: the ones you can hack (Tivo and Indrema) and the ones you can't (may they see the light)
Sorry to say, but there is very little hope for garage game makers. Not because of big ass rendered CGI cut scenes, but because of everything else that goes into a game. What about art? You can't get away with programmer art (a la Nintendo 8 bit) anymore. What about sound? How can you create good quality sound in your basement (I'm not talking about stealing sounds and tweaking them either, that'll end in a lawsuit). What about voice over work? There isn't really any way to get away with bad in-house voice acting these days (the "grab Bob down the hall" school of voice acting). I'm not saying it's impossible to make a slick professional game with a small group and budget, but it's very difficult. You have to have the talent and the tools and that's what most garage gamers don't have.
Maybe what Linux needs is a DirectX port? It would still provide the developers the ability to access the hardware with a fast and flexible API, at the same time meaning that they do not have to worry about the underlying hardware.
This would certainly make sense for the developers of this console, and would also be a boon for current Linux developers. As it stands at the moment, Linux & X together are not suitable for games, and without something as powerful as DirectX behind it, this console will have exactly the same problem...
Robert Morgen.
Sure, those things are good. They're working at solving the problem -- which does exist.
PS: I like SDL too.
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The situation is different on Linux, but it still doesn't escape the base issues. Overall, having a diversity of hardware is a good thing, but needing to support it all is a lot of extra work which takes time away from making the actual games. A homogenous reference platform to develop for makes things drastically easier.
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I think you're coming at this from the wrong angle. Lots of amateur game developers want to get their games into the hands of as many people as possible. Right now, Win32 is the best way to do that, since most amateur's can't afford to target license heavy consoles like the Playstation. If the Indrema gets a non-trivial market share, the close to zero cost to ship demos will draw developers looking to make cool stuff for ego's sake.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
People generally don't buy a system for the system's sake. They buy it for the games. A killer game can sell huge numbers of systems. As far back as the Atari 2600 (which had killer games of Asteroids and Pac Man) this has been the case. Super Mario 64 and Zelda: Ocarina of Time sold me a Nintendo 64. Crazy Taxi and Tony Hawk sold me a Dreamcast. If Indrema ships a few exceptional games, I'll buy a system. Until then, it's just a nice dream.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
You, my friend, are an idiot.
Any casual observer who was familiar with the games mentioned would realize that the source code had NOTHING to do with the explosion of the mod comunity that id helped foster. People were creating mods and `hacking' Doom long before id even thought about releasing the source code.
Releasing the source to those games might have been a bad idea, but that is not the point of the post you are responding to.
Bad Mojo
Bad Mojo
"If you can't win by reason, go for volume." -- Calvin
Ah, the old bluffing-label-to-scare-idiots trick. I got quite a chuckle when I bought Edguy's "The Savage Poetry" album. The CD label contains the following words:
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
This isn't typical. And since Tivos automatically download software updates, your Tivo is probably running the exact same software as everyone else. Smells like a hardware problem.
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Uhm, they are called LPmuds.
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
These things will make great little cheap ($299!) web servers... 600mhz cpu, 64mb ram (hopefully upgradable) 8-50mb HD, 100mbps ethernet.. What more do you need?
Don't worry, within a couple weeks of release, any "rights management" will be able to be disabled. Every new copy protection scheme is broken pretty quickly after it comes out, but still they waste their time coming up with them.
We have SDL already, why do we need direct x?
my other penis is a vagina
But if you can do all these great things you speak of, why haven't you? Why hasn't anyone else? You've already got a decent computer, a free OS and a free compiler. Go forth and produce your high-quality game. The problem isn't that you don't have the tools, its that you, a "regular guy" doesn't know how to use them or don't (won't?) devote the time to learn, or that you actually don't have the time to create a game on your own. I don't see Indrema fixing this problem anytime soon. Indrema is, afterall, something you already have, in a smaller box.
And another thing...3DStudio Max? Did you buy that or did you steal it? Last I checked it was around $4000. Will you actually pay for Indrema software or just steal that as well?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phill Hugo"
To: "John Gildred"
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 10:05 AM
Subject: Software Licensing
> What do you require of the software to sign it? Binary only or source
> also?
>
> Phill
John Gildred wrote:
Binary only.
John T. Gildred
CEO, Indrema
Entertainment Systems
www.indrema.com
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Hello John,
Thankyou for your prompt reply, however I am curious as to how this will stop people adding program loaders into their games and using them to bypass the install/load process completely. This happened a number of times with the Atari Jaguar even though Atari licensed machines able to run unsigned code to devlopers. If what I know of Indrema is correct (that there will be no development variant save for a normal PC and SDK) how is it possible to run code on the Indrema to test it without reverting to such back door and further, surely you have to agree that the temptation to sneak such a process in will be quite high.
I'm sure I'm not alone in finding the whole "restricted access" to a platform slightly in the face of what Open Source is about, perhaps to the point of it being potentially insulting.
I am not looking for a long drawn out arguement on the merits of your approach but would like to hear your views of the more technical points above and also whether Indrema may consider adopting a different approach to licensing for the platform.
One immediate idea that comes to mind is the utilisation of a 30 second or so pause with an explanation that the program being run is unlicensed; or perhaps offering open use as long as your proprietary libraries are unused.
Regards,
Phill
I think these guys are going to have a shit fit once someone hacks the "digital rights management" stuff in the console, like they did with the MOD-chip for the Playstation2.
Mark my words, the hackers will prove that TANSTACP (There Ain't No Such Thing As Copy Protection).
And how exactly will the Inderama not have professionally designed games? They are just replacing the underlying operating system (which is on every console. Dreamcast has Windows CE and another one, the X-box will have Windows 2001 Lite, the Playstations and Nintendos have secret ones.) Replacing the underlying system will not prevent professionally designed games, any more than Loki games are not professionally designed or the Xbox's ports of PC games are not professionaly designed. Granted, the Inderama is target to some people who would like to design there own games at home and share them with their friends. This doesn't proclude those games at all. We'll probably see a lot of Loki ports and other games migrate to Inderama. The question of professionally designed games is a red herring.
People have died for puns like that!
Actually, it could be the best way to decide the whole Bush/Gore thing once and for all. Give the Presidency to the first one who chooses to have his schlong cut off!
Hell, if anything else it'll prevent another Zippergate!
Clap-clap-clap-clap-clap, "WOO-WOO!", clap-clap-clap!
I don't have any moderation points at the moment, so this is the best I can do. Good insite, good point! It's more a matter of creativity, skill, and mental perspiration to make a great game; throwing money at a problem doesn't always work.
- "When I say dance, you'd best DANCE motherf*cker!" -Violent Femmes
You are so l337! You have an slashdot article generator, don't you?
Just another coder...
The standard 'lock them in and exploit them" method is not working any longer - the more technically inclined are saying "no thank you" and are advising their less knowledgeable brethren the same
No, it still works that way.
Inkjet printer cartridges, a new set of cartridges cost > 50% the initial cost of the printer. (I use the bottle refills anyway)
Heck even the classic give away the razors, make money on the blades holds true.
I have all sorts of razors, none of them have interchangable blades.
I think one of the best ideas this company has is .. basically cutting out the 'software developers' part of the game-creation cycle. They're assuming people will just create games themselves, and submit them, hoping they'll make the cut. Hell; there might even be some groups/tribes/whatever that will make games that rival N64 or PS2.... who knows. I have a strange feeling that the first few games will be Nintento-esque (16-color bitmaps walking around).
The truth is, you just can't make a console system out of thin air. Lots of work has to go into it; if you dont have software in mind, you shouldn't even Bother trying to make hardware. It's a good idea and all, but there's way too many loose strings.
-Egon
1. Bring new games to linux
2. Create new linux users
3. Expand linux hardware support
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HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
Ok, this is sort of a "mee too".
It sounds like he (Gildred) is doing all this by the seat of his pants. It's just like a big gamble... and the odds are probably against him.
There's no announced games, there probably won't be any games until just before the thing releases--*if* it releases.
Also, about speed:
Typically, having a fully multi-user Unix-derivative OS is not a plus for a game console. I mean we want to be able to access the hardware as fast as we possibly can with as little an amount of stuff in the way as possible. I think there's a lot of stuff that a standard complete OS does that are not condusive to this goal. This system won't really be a console system, it'll be PC-in-a-console-box.
It would, of course, be nice to have a console system that was hack-friendly, but it seems unlikely to me that this one's going to make it.
Furry cows moo and decompress.
I'm assuming that over time people will share libraries of code for writing games on the Indrema (or whatever box). Letting people in to start tweaking the assembly for the fastest possible operation is a Good Thing(tm).
When you think about it, your logic is the same that some would argue to keep <insert favorite monopoly here> code private. However, I believe the open eyes, many hands approach has many more positives than negatives.
That makes no sense.WHAT hardware variations?
It's x86 based.
No emulating required.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
PC incompatibility?
What the hell are you smoking?
People run oses and software on a bazillion different configurations quite fine.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
DRI = DirectX alternative
Does very well.
Try it some time.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Mac users use 15 year old Fetch for FTp. Winlusers use DirectX. Says so in the Bible, Koran, and the holy books of the church of the subgenius.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Wake up and smell the SDL. SDL, ClanLib, GGI and OpenGL are turning the whole thing around. Heck SDL is about the sweetestest cleanest library I've ever seen.
And I'm an Amiga fan.
And speaking of hardware support, take alook at Win2k, There's like nothing as far as drivers forthcoming.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
"the ones you can hack (Tivo and Indrema) and the ones you can't (may they see the light)"
can't hack my ass. What are they going to do, drag people to court for posting documentation and utilities on the web?
Oh wait... damned DMCA... Sometimes I envy people living in free countries, unlike us poor SOBs in the good old USofA.
The article states that there will be 30 games at launch, but has anyone seen any evidence that there will really be any indrema games?
*sigh* as your friend I don't appreciate being called an idiot. You know better.
I a well aware of the hacking that went on in the DOOM community. I am well aware that id gave no help when the initial map editors were relased. I used several of those editors. I am well aware that modding exploded with Quake and QuakeC and that even then id wasn't always helpful.
I don't see why you feel justified in calling me an idiot. Where do I relate the MOD community with the release of the source code? If anything I point out a *disadvantage* of releasing the source to those games, making it easier to cheat (quoting the original post "...they realized that giving someone knowledge doesn't take it away from you. In fact, in most cases, it will help you."). I also point out that that hacking has a downside, almost invairably the first use of hacking is to *cheat*.
If anything, It looks like you took offense to me putting a bad spin on id releasing their soure and decided to go into "call people idiots" mode.
Now please, instead of starting off with your flamethrower think before you post. You'll at least appear more grown up.
Fsck cluebie moderators. I'll say what I want, offtopic or not. And fsck having to qualify every bloody statement just
This probably doesn't hold as true for the Indrema but in general the rule is that a console game is guarranteed to sell tens of thousands of copies. That means money in the bank. This is also why many many game companies are making the console their chief delpoyment platform with PC ports as a distant second. You MAKE MORE MONEY with consoles. I don't suppose garage developers would be predisposed to making some nice income.
Oh, and the usual avoidance of compatibility headaches factors in.
Fsck cluebie moderators. I'll say what I want, offtopic or not. And fsck having to qualify every bloody statement just
On the flip side: the source was released when there was no danger to id software of it being hurt by the source being released. Folks hacking those same games also came up with cheats that ruined the game (see Quake) for other people. Remember, there *is* a downside to almost every issue, particularly hacking. Someone (justly or not) loses out.
Fsck cluebie moderators. I'll say what I want, offtopic or not. And fsck having to qualify every bloody statement just
When it comes to console gaming, the thing that matters most is games, both quality and quantity. If all the Inderma has is Quake III, then this thing isn't going to sell at all maybe the hardware isn't vaporware, but this statement:
Gildred has been very coy about naming specific titles that are in development for the Indrema system, however, he does acknowledge that "content drives the platform." Gildred states that, "We are positioning ourselves as the platform for the hottest titles." He added that for launch the company is targeting 30 games that would be a mix of existing tiles ported to the system as well as original games. But with no specific game announcements scheduled until early spring 2001, Indrema watchers will just have to take his word for it.
seems to indicate to me that the titles are vaporware.
I've been following the gaming industry for five or so years and I haven't seen anyone mention the following angle on Indrema so I guess I'll indulge.
As most of you know, game consoles sell at a loss, but then make up the cost in software. How do they do this when third parties create software? They lock the cartridge/CD system, and then become the only manufacturer of cartridges/CDs. You write the games, then they manufacturer them for $5 to $15 (last I could remember). This price is substantially above actual manufacturing costs.
However there is an insidious side to this control. If you think up a way to take advantage of this system, you can trust that they've already done it!
For instance, Nintendo (as I recall) required a minimum number of a cartridge to be built. This squeezed out any small, creative teams, because they could no longer make a small batch of games to see how it went and pour the money back into more units.
They also make claims to quality control. If your game isn't good enough, they don't let it through. This justifies some of the cost, but keep in mind that Sony, Sega, and Nintendo all have their own first party games. Don't be surprised if your quality isn't deemed high enough if one of these companies happens to be making a similar game. One of the more lucrative game genres, sports, is owned by Sony... on PlayStation. Meanwhile special deals can be cut with large companies such as Electronic Arts (the Evil Empire of games).
Sony, I believe it was, was dragged into court over limiting companies to a total number of games, limiting a company to only Sony games, and limited distribution in certain countries.
It is the monopolistic control of individual, locked systems that would seem to be the industries biggest political battle, and open source only won't help.
Now and then, I see a posting from some major publisher who knows that most games are sold on consoles and so they must write to these consoles, but you can tell that they are miffed that all the risk of manufacturing has been pushed in their lap. They're used: given a special deal to get a Quake or a Final Fantasy on a brand new system to help sell it, then charged out the wazoo to compete for racing or sports titles.
So along comes Indrema, which gets to use a free (open) OS and COTS hardware and designs. Once the system is built for cheap, they still plan to control the spice so to speak, by doing the locked CD trick. If they didn't have enough troubles already, this will surely kill them. They are not big enough to have the slightest chance playing the same game as the big boys. All the developers are wise to this game and they might as well go with a company who plans to spend $500 million on marketing.
What is needed is some sort of guerrilla marketing tactic. Perhaps the ones that follow won't work, but you can get the idea:
Idea 1: Sell the system for a profit! What an idea! (-: Consumers will balk at the price... until they realize they can get games for $10 cheaper. They can even get a few simple games for $5, like Vegas games and simple arcade style games. Plus they will get much more software. (Nintendo tried to limit software on the N64 to incredibly expensive, "quality" titles and Sony ran away with mind share for having "many more games" even if most were crap.)
Meanwhile, plenty of developers may come out of the woodwork to support a system that gives them a fair risk/profit reward (and control of their own manufacturing). Make a new system in five years with updated hardware but which is completely backwards compatible (PS2 does this). Sure, Indrema couldn't make Nintendo's billions, but they could make a happy profit and know they helped shift the power in yet another monopolistic industry.
Idea 2: Make a system that is truly for the masses. By that I mean it doesn't have to have the latest hardware. Let X-Box, G-Cube, and Z-Parallepiped fight over a few elite hard-core gamers. I still play Half-Life mods at home. My CPU, graphics card, and 3D sound card can be bought for $120 at a local store!
Idea 3: Get rid of those crappy controllers. Gawd those ruin games! (-: Find a way to get a mouse on there, and a "binary" joystick.
That's all. In short, open source is pointless on a closed system. What we need is an open system!
Well... if you leave a really big capacitor, you can claim that it's part of the circuitry. It'll be their fault to open it up and zap themselves stupid. Oh wait, they *ARE* stupid to open it up in the first place...
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Here's two ideas, put "Warranty void if this label is broken." and "Warning: To avoid personal injury, please have a certified technician to service this product."
Then again, it's just a label.
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It will be quite nice for you to be able to hack/develop a great system without having to have oodles of money and a company under your belt. Especially when that system runs linux (yes, I am a little anti-M$.) Personally I have been looking more towards hardware specs of systems like the Dreamcast (hoping to make BBSish) software using the modem and it's nice to see a company finally realizing the great potential of not only having it's hardware/software tested thoroughly for errors, etc but also have a lot of free development and maybe pick up ideas. Let's hope this is the beginning of an emerging trend in the gaming industry :D
.--bagel--.---------------.
| aim: | bagel is back |
| icq: | 158450 |
( o ) one could say I'm rather baked
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
But we're seeing very, very little from indie game groups.
Actually, this isn't true. While very few amateur games being built from scratch, given a bit more to start from, ameteur game developers have done just as much as the "pro" game developers. Look at the Half-Life modification scene, and in particular Counter-Strike. While Gooseman wrote only a small portion of the code (most of the code is in the engine or starts in the SDK), the artwork and maps in Counter-Strike are fanstastic, and have made it by far the most popular first-person shooter written.
I think that for something like the Indrema to succeed, they need something similar to Half-Life or Quake: good as a game, but better as a base from which to write other games, with a powerful SDK.
------------------
A picture is worth 500 DWORDS.
If a game isn't certified, it won't run.
Indrema has talked about selling an expensive "developer console" that would run uncertified games, although that solution has its own set of drawbacks.
It's illegal to booby-trap consumer products? Damn, guess I'll have to comment-out the section of code that deactivates my program after 30 days...
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
They're trying to sell to the market that will buy a console, not to the very limited group that will base their buying decisions on the company's politics rather than how good the console is. That's not neccesarily a bad position to take, but I don't think that anyone's too sad about not selling to you.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
I can agree with this. The groups that would buy it for its 'open-ness' aren't nearly enough to make the indremeda profitable. Console gamers could care less about what's powering the system. All they care about is the performance of the games, and the graphics that are displayed.
Actually, I'm not very pleased with a linux console-like machine I have... My TiVo. It crashes all the time. Yes, I understand that its the software, not the operating system, but as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't work up to the standard it should. How will the Indremeda work as far as games? Any different??
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Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Ok, so they console market has proven to us that the money is in the software, not the hardware. Yet these guys aren't writing much software themselves. Most of the software for it is going to be OSS...
Anyone else wondering how long until they show up on fuckedcompany.com?
Hammer of Truth
I'll stick with my Dreamcast and PSOne.
Why?
Shenmue, Samba de Amigo, Jet Grind Radio, F355 Challenge, Grandia 2, etc. and Gran Turismo 2, Reboot, and Ghost in the Shell. Dreamcast has more great games than I can afford and have time to play. Please don't think that I'm biased to Sega, 'cause I'm not. I'm biased toward good games and they just happen to be on Dreamcast at the moment.
"The quality of life is determined by its activites."--Aristotle
The best excuse for things like that (and it's actually true today) is:
It's a Monday!
Add to that that it is a Monday after a long holiday weekend and you got an excuse for not doing anything right today! Works for me anyway.
Bite my yammer.
Wow, and I thought my Monday was sucking. If only I could pass you a BAWLS over the Internet;-). The only thing that gets me through those tough Mondays.
Bite my yammer.
Funny. I consider myself an "early adopter". I was one of the first people to purchase a Palm. I was one of the first people to purchase a Dell Inspiron 4000
Now If you had said "I was one of the first with a Newton, or I was one of the first with a Grid Lap-Top" I may have agreed to your claim as 'first adopter' - but I hardly think there is anything revolutionary about a laptop with snap on/off colour wrist pads. Now would you consider yourself on the techno bleeding edge if you bought a iMac 'before everyone else'...
It cannot, and shouldn't, be done
Wrong & Wrong - but clearly irrelevant.
No hacker argues that they shouldn't rip apart their computers as soon as they buy them
Every 'hacker' I know removes the case from everything he/she owns - before they plug it in...
Im really not interested in 'speaking for the hackers of the world' here -not only is it far to 31337 for me and just a little silly- but you clearly don't understand the vein of this argument, my response, or the true nature of the article. Did you even read the post that you responded to? The articles? Taco's comments?
Plays MP3s, TiVo functionality, etc. It's not just for games.
That doesn't count.. if it's a program, or any other file on a computer, then it's digital. That means no real world rules apply.. It'll cure your baldness, heal you, give you spiritual guidance, remove cancer, enlarge certain areas, cure blindness and all illnesses..
But pray to god if you email doom2 to someone.
-since when did 'MTV' stand for Real World Television instead of MUSIC television?
Prediction: People will develop games for free and offer them over the internet without paying for or using "technical certification".
http://www.blitzbasic.com/
http://www.blitzbasic.com/
Graphics3D 640, 480
The "open" angle of the Indrema is something that is being overhyped. Open is good, yes, but consider how few decent games have been developed for Linux.
Have you ever tried developing a game on Linux? Between the lack of consistent hardware support and the nearly infinite number of hardware setups around, it's next to impossible. It's only just recently (kernel 2.2) that Linux even started to support graphics at all--up until then it was "hack the hardware, and hope the user has the same hardware you do"--and there still is not more than minimal support for joysticks (I have to give insmod parameters for my joystick every time I load the module), no support at all for 3D graphics, no way to get consistent timing (unless you write a kernel module to hook an interrupt, which brings in a host of security problems).
Then, of course, there are the classic PC problems, such as gazillions of video cards (many of which lack Linux support), flimsy sound hardware (hello software mixing--even the Amiga 1000 in 1985 was better), etc. I have enough trouble just moving my game-in-progress between my desktop (direct hardware support via SVGAlib, VESA doesn't work) and my laptop (VESA support via SVGAlib, no direct hardware support).
In fact, though the Indrema has me excited, I was very disturbed to read that they're planning a "line" of Indrema systems and going to allow upgrading of the video card--unless they have awfully good QC on just what hardware they release, they're just going to duplicate the failures of the PC all over again.
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BACKNEXTFINISHCANCEL
Then why am I having to jump through hoops to get Descent 3 running on my machine?
What I was referring to was kernel support, not libraries--that's also why I said Linux only "just recently" got support for graphics, although SVGAlib has been around for much longer. You can make or (probably) find libraries for just about anything, I'll grant you, but that's just one more layer of complexity, one more thing that can go wrong when the end-user tries to play the game. And then, of course, you start running into the same problems Windows has with mismatched/incompatible versions of libraries...
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BACKNEXTFINISHCANCEL
Could you possibly leave parts of it open ended, like the quake games?
so GamePro is looking at the hackability of a system as a downside? Isn't that the best way to find flaws and make improvements for the next generation of that platform? I always wanted to crack open my nes and make it genesis compat...but some things just never happen.
How Jaded Are You?
While what you say may be true, at least the developers have a bottom line that they can count on. Also, I am confident that any customizations that the indrema people semi-endorse would be completely compatible with any software developed for the base system. The point is, they are making something that can be customized, but starting at a bottom line that dev people can confidently build apps for.
If someone tries to prove this point he practically has to hack the box.
This actually shows the idiocy of the DMCA: if DMCA forbids you to look at stuff - how to find out whether some other guy violated your (copy)right if you can't look under the hood ?
I' know "flamebait". C'mon moderate me down, Man.
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
I don't expect this lack of quality games to last for long. With projects like Tux racer coming out which can be used as a springboard to bigger projects, I expect open source game projects to start popping up like popcorn at sourceforge. Sure, they might lag behind commercial development by 1 generation, like linux did, but when they come, they will be solid, extensible, widely used, and re-usable.
They ARE out to get you simply because They are in it for themselves and they don't care about you.
This looks great and everything and of course I really admire the guy's heart, but.. come on.. In a market already flooded with the likes of Sony, Sega, Nintendo, and soon the heavyweight of them all Microsoft -- This is not a very smart business decision.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
I think a lot of folks are missing the point. As much as most of us (especially me) would like to see Indrema make a big splash on the market and sell Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft under the table, that's just a pleasant pipe dream. All we have to hope for is for Indrema to be profitable long enough to change the rules. We all know open software is inherently better, except that it takes a while. So I predict that the Indrema will be launched next year and have modest initial success, but create a cult following of developers, and in two years when there are plenty of high quality Indrema games available for a fraction of the cost of other consoles, THEN Indrema will sell other consoles under the table. So, keep the faith as always. All Indrema has to do is survive for a couple years. Once there is some serious, fully armed OSS competition in a market, we have seen that the standard business model can't compete. James Bearden http://james.bearden.com P.S. If Microsoft is like the Borg, then OSS is like species 85917 (or whatever): The weak shall perish.
http://james.nontrivial.org
Note Gildred does not say we will be "pleasantly surprised" when the processor speed is announced.
Just "surprised". It's going to use a 386/33.
Bull. Netpliance deserved what they got. If they had an acutal business model, they might have survived. Had they not whined about the eeeevil hackers, not so many people might have bought their boxes to hack up from the start. Anyhow, that business model was DOA--while Netpliance's demise is sweet, they were dead before the first box was hacked. And good riddance.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Forget the system and carry the games, with the OS and hardware so similar to plain Linux PCs, I sure someone will find a way to play the games on a standard computer.
"pr0n": An anagram of "porn," possibly indicating the use of pornography. - www.microsoft.com
What kind of hacker needs everything working out of the box? This is a console for hackers, FFS!
Some friends of mine have been playing a really well hackable RPG lately. It's basically the original of what you can find on a computer, but you play it with pen and paper and some other good things of life, like human beings and whisky and the like. For all you nerds out there, this is about as opensource as you can get. If only the gamemaster would stop recycling my characters. I end up seeing my beloved characters killed again and again, by my own hands.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
I hope it has a volume control or something...
That's most likely going to be the frist hack done to it...
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
For something that is on-topic. Unix is on the verge of taking over the political world as well. Please read http://news.excite.com/news/r/001126/07/odd-eunuch -dc
I think that it will be tough to crack into the N64/Sega market (due to thier far vaster game selection) or have the money to force thier way in like Microsoft (BTW has a ton of games for windows and SHOULD be a quick recompile to run on X-Box). I still hope Indrema manages to survive long enough to produce a few killer games and thus give linux a real hope of getting mass user appeal. If a few really cool games come out on linux (and only linux), Joe gamer might go over to dual boot and if enough games go over to linux, the game industry just might say they don't need Microsoft anymore. Of course this is a really LONG shot with really LONG odds. I am also assuming that Indrema developers will do a quick recompile of thier games so that they will run under the most popular linux pc distributions in hopes of a larger market share.
I miss the Karma Whores.
"i think this is a wonderful idea especially for RPGers like myself who can write new plots, characters, monsters, dungeons.."
Heh... I can see it now... someone writes a RPG and people just keep adding on to it... We just might see a game with 1000 dungeon levels...
hmmm.... I might have to take some time off of work for that one...
Eric Gearman
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Atomic batteries to power! Turbines to speed!
Ok thats all very nice but... your points are TOTALLY invalid!
Firstly if you didn't feel the need to rip apart your first palmpilot and hack it thats fine, but id have to say thats the kinda thing that gets alot of hackers going.
Second of course hackers only hack what they enjoy and what interests them, its impossible for one person to hack everything. It seems that you refer to all hackers as computer hackers and then go on to chastise them for not hacking thier toasters and thier cars, but theres more out thier than just computer hackers. A hardware hacker might have some interest in taking apart a toaster(if it was anything more than a couple of heating coils) and theres a name for people who hack cars... MECHANIC. No hackers claim its their civic duty to hack something... they claim is their civic RIGHT. If i want to be able to hack software or hardware i paid for i should be able to, companies arent requiered to make it easy for me but they damn well should be lobbying for laws that make it illegal... what am i buying then... a service? i think not... im paying for a product and thats what i damn well want!
Id like you to tell me why arguing that everything should be hacked is ridiculous. Its completly useful, interoperatability and adaptability aren't always the priority of companies who are trying to push monopolies on their products sectors but they are definate advantages to consumers. Every day were being pushed by these companies to buy only their products (SONY and its memory sticks vs flash cards etc). The point im trying to make is that there are millions of good reasons to hack things but none not to. If you wanna claim thats its not constructive and its a waste of time thats fine, but its MY time and im going to do whatever i want with it. If you dont wanna rip apart your palm thats fine with me but if you're trying to tell me that i should rip apart mine then i have a problem
Oh Well, Whatever, Nevermind...
Well, as far as graphics go, we do have OpenGL / Mesa.
--
The most valuable commodity I know of is information. - Michael Douglas as Gordon Gekko, Wall Street
I do hope it truly is hackable. i think this is a wonderful idea especially for RPGers like myself who can write new plots, characters, monsters, dungeons..
Goat sex free since 2001
They make a cool game system, and then they have to go and lock it up (%$# $$$ concerns)! I hate it when companies do this :\
Plus any other cool things people figure out how to make it do. That's one of the upsides to the hackable part.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
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I want to buy one, and the other geeks in my office want to buy one. While this straw poll falls somewhat short of a statistically valid population (:-), I think it means that there is a market for the Indrema.
So, if supporting the community is your goal, I guess I'd advise that you stock it.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Gotta agree with this one. People who post here
A) Are willing to pay 50 bucks to help out a small company doing something cool with Linux.
B) Have 50 extra bucks to spend.
A vast, vast majority of consumers do not fall into both of the above categories. Also throw into the mix the fact that by the time Indrema ships in "late spring", both the X-Box and the GameCube will be firmly sitting in the minds of all gamers.
I own a PS2 and love it. My next major purchase will almost certainly be a GameCube. I love Linux on my PC. On my console system, I love professionally designed games.
-B
In 1937, the Lensmen observed "What Science Can Create, Science Can Duplicate".
Why not just do that with your PC now?
Your TiVo shouldn't crash. Usually a crashing TiVo is the first sign of a failing drive. Ours has gone for months without a problem, as has 3 or 4 other people's I know. My friend's TiVo would crash every so often...and then the drive just died.
runs Linux and screams "Hack me Hack me!"
I hope it has a volume control or something...
Just another coder...
"[...]no support at all for 3D graphics[...]"
While I agree with many of your other observations about Linux' shortcomings as a gaming OS, that one just plain isn't true. Support for 3D graphics under Linux, through the magic of OpenGL, is actually pretty good--and getting better.
main(O){10<putchar(4^--O?77-(15&5128 >>4*O):10)&&main(2+O);}
When this comes out, I am going to buy one and burn a CD with as many emulators and games as I can stuff onto it. That would be worth having it alone I think, to be able to play everything super nintendo and below on it, maybe playstation, maybe nintendo 64.
Also, I bet companies like Loki want to see this happen, simultanious (spelling?) releases of games for both the console and the PC. And they already have alot of games that could be ported with little effort.
And the best part... open source game projects! oh hell yeah.
This Wiki Feeds You TV and Anime - vidwiki.org
probalby the biggest argument against indrema and its open source approach to gaming is that individuals, regardles of how motivated, cannot compete with the high production cost of big studios. I believe this is argumant is failed and about to be put to rest.
I'm just a regular guy with a PII300, 128MB of ram and a TNT2 card. In spite of this i can have 3ds MAX run fairly well on my system, create complex 3d worlds and characters and choose and run any programming language i desire and come up with a cool 3d engine and a story. hell, i can give my system to Carmack for 2 months in a deserted island and you'll see what production value is..
my point is, you only need big studios for pre-rendered, motion captured scenes, and i can certainly live without that. a good game, good enough to compete with today's greatest, can still be a garage game, i guarantee you. motivated individuals can conceive and program entire worlds using good 3d software and programming skills, everything else is the story, gameplay and experience, and these can't be bought.
the days of commander keen, wolfenstein 3d and why not, wing commander I are not over yet...
There are two kinds of people in the world: Those with good memory.
"We will support the digital rights management system to the Nth degree."
Digital rights for corps but not for consumers, of course. Sorry John, you've just lost a customer.
So if Indrema either dies after it's launched, or doesn't quite make it that far, would it be possible that they would release specs, plans etc. for the hardware, allowing some enterprising person (or just some great hacker) to start putting them together themselves?
This would be a good solution to the problem of obsolete hardware that you can't get any more (how many of you have old NES games around, but your systems are broken?) Also, the Indrema seems like it might be a great way for budding console game programmers to hone their skills -- and a completely open system might even further that.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
The problem with Indrema is that they aren't doing anything unique. The are putting PC components in a nifty box. Anybody can do this. Ok, so they are putting linux on it. Thats cool, but there isn't anything unique about that either. If they get it built, I'm sure the Linux hacker (is that bad word) will buy them, but with out a distribution channel they have no way of competing with XBoX and PS2. Don't forget that the XBoX and PS2 hardware will be and is heavily subsidized. E.g. its the Razor/Razorblade model. Sell the HW cheap, make money off the games. If a consumer has to pay $400 - $500 for an Indrema box then why buy an Indrema box instead of a PS/2 or XBoX? E.G. Whats the business model? How do people make money working with Indrema? If there is no answer to this, or the answer is cruddy, then Indrema is destined for listing on fuckedcompany.com
Jibe!
Out of all the developers for the Indremeda, especially the 'garage developer', how many will go ahead and make a linux PC port to their game? And if not, how soon does an open-source game get ported to a linux PC once it comes out? What is my advantage to getting an indremeda, when I already have a linux box??
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Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Further, consoles are the worst thing to hack. The whole ideal behind a console is that the hardware is in a fixed state, that all games can take advantage of the fact that all the users have the same hardware, and can tweak the game to take advantage of that hardware (as opposed to, for example, the many different hardware configurations a game like Unreal Tournament for the PC must handle). If you take apart the console and modify it, you are breaking the whole principle of making it a console in the first place.
Computers, Tivos, they all make sense to hack. Consoles, VCR's, Toasters, there really is no point.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Here's my real issue-
/. whiners say, "We wouldn't hack 'em if they just built it the way we wanted them to in the first place" But they couldn't start a business if they built the boxes the way some of you would want them. (and I'm guilty of this too, to an extent. Dangnit, I want ethernet in my TivO from the factory!)
We love to hack these boxen, be they net-pliance's, TiVOs, etc., and the companies either tolerate it (TiVO) or revolt (Net-Pliance/Digtal::Convergence).
We can't reliably predict which Indrema or ZapStation will do.
Just because they use our beloved Linux, it doesn't mean that they share our ideals and support our curiousity in making the box do new tricks.
In fact, in the article, ZapStation plans to secure their box so that it will be very difficult to hack. Indrema plans to use every measure of digital management systems to protect the DVD content, and content of the games, even though no such management system exists at this time.
We also know that many users will want to disable macrovision/digital management/other methods of copy-prevention, and make divx/mpeg4/(insert codec here) copies for *possible* legitimate playback on linux desktop systems. (I say possible because honestly, there is some chance that people will do it to make backups of content they already own, some for the satisfaction of their curiosity, and some will do it to violate copyright law.)
But when these boxen do become widely available and the first thing we do is hack them to pieces, we run them out of business.
Many of
I only wish that we resist the urge to break open the seals that ZapStation and Indrema choose to place in their boxen right away, that we support them by using them as they intend us to, and support them for using Linux.
Let's not hack them out of business like we did to Net-Pliance.
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
they not only don't have titles yet, they haven't chosen a definite video card and no definite CPU...
.02
They have several "prototype models".. If they are going to be released in Spring 2001, they better get their asses in gear..
I may be wrong but it just seems to fishy to be real. They are either not going to make their deadline (which is almost a definite) or they aren't going to do it at all.
Just my worthless
I haven't seen this addressed in depth anywhere, but how does Indrema expect to make it? I'm all for choice and competition but the console market is pretty tight right now. Console makers survive today on game sales and licensing while actually losing money on sales of the systems themselves. Why would a developer want to develop on Indrema? Sega, Sony and the like attract developers by the user base they create. It's a well known fact the PS2 is difficult to develop for with it's 3 graphics processors (difficult to harness the full potential of them all simultaneously that is), but when you are almost guaranteed a user base of 1+ million in a few months you will make money with any Pokemon rip-off you create, no matter how poor the quality might be. I just don't see how Indrema expects to be heard over the shouts and fighting of Sega vs. Sony vs. Microsoft vs. Nintendo.
Nah, I tried that once... Evidently it's still illegal to booby-trap your consumer products. What the hell is that about?
The Linux connection is a red herring. Nobody, except a particular group of geeks, cares at all what is beneath the hood of a console, especially in terms of system software. Yeah, Linux is cool and all that, but it needs to take a seat in the far back of the theatre is this case, lest we all start defending really lame games simply because they run on the Indrema.
The "open" angle of the Indrema is something that is being overhyped. Open is good, yes, but consider how few decent games have been developed for Linux. Linux is the perfect platform for amateur game developers. All the tools--OpenGL, gcc, gdb, various libraries and toolkits--are free. You can get a GeForce 2 based graphics card for $129. You can get a very capable TNT or TNT2 based card for $50-$80. But we're seeing very, very little from indie game groups. Little enough that I wouldn't expect to see *any* independently developed pro-quality games for the Indrema.
Therefore, the game developers will be able to sleep at night because most of the user base will have the standard configuration, and the ones who don't will probably be doing optimization of their own. If the hackers fuck up their console enough that some games don't work, then it's their own damn fault and they shouldn't have played with something they couldn't fix.
But this Indrema system sounds quite adaptable, which will hamstring the game develepors attempts to tweak and optomise. Surely an unhackable system would be more sensible from the consumers point of view?
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no
So we thought about this convoluted anti-hacking strategy and that one. But you know what? Once you put your hardware on the market, it's in the hands of the enemy. No matter what you think up, some wise ass kid in Sweden will figure out how to break it in a week and a half. And once the solution to the problem hits the net, there may as well be no security whatsoever on the box for all the good your months and months of anti-hacking engineering efforts do.
Of course, your Dilbert-esque pointy haired bosses aren't going to be able to grasp that, so the anti-hacking measures will continue to be engineered. Personally, I think my idea of planting a thermite charge on the motherboard would have been the best deterrent they could have come up with. Too bad they didn't want to go for that. I guess Swedish wise ass kids' hands getting blown off when they open their boxes is just bad publicity...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
At Tux Games we have been debating if we should stock the Indrema and its games. Whilst we are a Linux based games company, the Inderma is a Linux based console for gamers.
What opinions do people have? Should we stock this for completeness of range and support for the community, or would would people prefer we remain purely a company selling games to use on basic mainstream Linux systems? If you have an opinion please drop an email to comments@tuxgames.com
Tux Games. Your complete source for native Linux games.
I like the part that says "may they see the light." Here's a valid argument that someone could use when arguing about "unhackable" Linux devices: simply recall id Software's games Wolf3D and Doom. Wolf3D was released just like any other game at its time, but something strange happened shortly thereafter: folks started hacking the game and coming up with level editors and stuff. Instead of suing those folks like most game companies would have done at the time, the intelligent authors of the game used this to their advantage and made tons of money from this game. (Kids wanted to modify the game, so they had to get a copy of it.) When Doom and Doom II were released, I think they actually released specs that gave hackers some idea of how the game data was stored. Doom and Doom II were so successfully that for a time, most other games were judged relative to them. Furthermore, id released the source code for Wolf3D and, later, Doom. I highly respect them for that reason -- that is, because they realized that giving someone knowledge doesn't take it away from you. In fact, in most cases, it will help you.
-NGH