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On The Dune Miniseries
the_tsi writes: "Looks like Dune was pretty succesful last night. The SciFi Channel has already announced that Dune Messiah and Children of Dune will be produced. The sequels will be also written/directed by John Harrison." As well, what did everyone think of last night? I was impressed -- compared to the movie, quite a step in the right direction -- although the part with Paul acting more like a Young Luke Skywalker was irritating.
Some quick info on me:
n e/ index.html), you hear over and over how true they are trying to be to the books. I challenge that statement. In screenplay, some changes will need to be made to keep the viewer "in the loop", but in 6 hours far less adaptation should be needed than Lynch required.
::SIGH::
I have the six *real* Dune books in first edition hardcover, soft cover, Spanish, and French. I have read them each book no less than 6 times. I own and have read the Dune Encyclopedia a couple times (though don't consider it Cannon). I own the two prequels. I've read HA twice and HH once. While they were...interesting to read, they had their problems, and I don't consider them Cannon either, I feel Kevin Anderson's stink negates Brian Herbert's birthright. I consider myself a fan of the Dune universe, but I am far from an expert.
I have been excited about the Miniseries for months. While I have seen the Lynch movie a dozen or so times, I despise it. There are some that praise it, some that take it for what it is, and some that even think it was true to the book. I think that it is none of the above. My friends have been asking me for weeks what I'm going to do if it rains at the end of the Sci Fi Miniseries.
(I don't think that the people at Sci Fi want to find that out).
If you read the CNN article
(http://www.cnn.com/2000/CAREER/trends/11/30/du
The look of the series is interesting, but I have some problems with it. As I make statements here, please feel free to correct me if I make a mistake (Except spelling: give me a break I'm at work and pissed off as I write this). The Atreides uniforms are supposed to be black with red hawk crests on them. Herbert describes these over and over again. Why are they a sort of khaki? You could claim, like the US Military, there is more than one uniform, but wouldn't Paul be wearing the "dress" Atreides uniform when he went to meet Moiham? That doesn't look black folks.
And as some have posted, Alec Newman is a brat. I know he knew nothing of Dune before filming, but how could John Harrison have missed this? Paul was a boy trying to find himself, not a spoiled rich brat trying to get his way. The scene in the
beginning, with Newman in his room in the palace was a nice look. Very Renaissance, with rose petals in the finger bowls.
On to the meeting with Moiham. WTF was that? Every time Herbert writes about the BG they walk into a room in their long, flowing, BLACK abba robes. If Harrison wanted to whore them up with those big hats, more power to him, but the robes are supposed to be black. There was nothing I liked about this Moiham, which will work well at the end when I hate her so much I want her dead.
The Gom Jabbar scene was fine, except if I didn't know better I'd think that those were fish tanks and not the oceans of Caladan on the wall. One thing I'll give Lynch, he beat the water thing into us.
So we take a trip to Kaitain, where we meet Shaddam and Irulan. I would like to point out there are now two movie adaptations of Dune, and I don't like either Shaddam in the least. Could someone please read the book and capture this
character? Talk about missing the mark. Meanwhile, Irulan is doing Ballet or Prana-Bindu or something, but this scene doesn't do much for me.
And the blasted Harkonnens. This is a Baron Harkonnen I could get to love. He's fat, bipolar, scheming, and a raving homosexual. Perfect. Feyd and Rabban are also pretty well captured. This Feyd is much more believable than Sting was in
the part. The look of Geidi-Prime is magnificent...better than Lynch's. Piter though, all wrong. The Lynch movie had Piter down to a T, but this Piter sucks, and then he's dead. A shame.
The Guild Highliner - beautiful. Much better than Lynch's. CGI really does it for me here. Thufir scolds snotty Alec to not endanger the Atreides shipping privileges. The Navigator though, I'm not sure about yet. There has to be a happy medium
between an Orange Vagina and a Monarch Butterfly. Herbert describes them as being once human, with flippers where limbs once were, and this one has wings. As for the act of folding space, same scene, 16 years and more money later. Again, the
CGI did it for me here.
So we're on Caladan. I have to say, I love the look Harrison has come up with for the palace that was once Count Fenrig's. The fountain for guests to wash their hands, the grandiose appearance, I really liked the look and feel of it. Can we discuss the garden for a minute? Jessica is supposed to discover the garden, and the message from the Lady Fenrig, another BG. Don't let the garden just be there, and don't bring it up without the message. Do it right or don't do it. Also, I will give Harrison credit for making Arakkis feel livable in the cities, something Lynch failed at. People live here, work here, trade here, and Harrison got that.
So who was the wench in Paul's room when the Hunter Seeker attacked? Hi - not true to the book. Even Lynch got that right. And I can't make up my mind if I like this Stilgar. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Stilgar spits in the book, didn't Duncan explain the custom, not Paul (like in the Lynch movie)? Why is the brat talking? SHUT UP! You know, Paul bothers me because I hate Kyle MacLachlan, so Alec has an advantage. The part is all wrong, but it's obvious that Alec is a good actor.
On to the infamous banquet. Again, Harrison has the look, and all is going well until Irulan walks in. (SO MAD RIGHT NOW...) Why is Irulan here? I challenge this miniseries to make a bigger mistake than this (oh, and not getting the character of Paul right). Paul and her don't meet before he takes her as his war bride at the end of Dune. They have nothing in common, and she ends up plotting his death in Messiah, which Harrison is already working on a screenplay for. Someone may have actually found a way to create a pithy ending without rain. I like the conversation with Gurney and Paul, makes the characters a little more real. And then the house guards get is a pissing contest with the Sauddakar before leaving. Dumb. Boo, hiss.
Now, Yuegh is a minor character, so Lynch made an effort to make him noticed, what with him being Judas and all. Funny thing, as many times as I've read and watched Dune, and I knew what was going on, I was like "Where's Yuegh" because I didn't know who was playing him. I think we saw him once for two seconds in the holo lesson. He needed a little more air time...something. The Sauddakar don't look like Chlorine breathing trash bags (yeah!!!) but the fight was missing something.
Oh well, I guess it was ok.
And Duncan didn't die in the Palace. THANK YOU! They got the sequence of events right. I hope they obligated this guy to play Duncan in all 6 miniseries =)
So, at the end of 2 hours, I guess I can give this a C+. It's a good try, and they're trying to stay true to Herbert, but where they took artistic license they messed up big. I'm trying to keep an open mind. We'll see how the rest goes.
"All I ever wanted was to see Larry Wall give Bill Gates a Perl necklace."
http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen
I seemed to me that Duncan died as Paul and Jessica took off from the Fremen camp. They flew off and Duncan was there looking like a rabbit in the headlights as a missle flew right up his tailpipe, BOOM! Ya got Duncan Idaho mashed potatoes. It went by pretty quickly though, easy to miss
rev
Dune is "too complicated" for commerical television, but you want to bring it into the far more abstract medium of anime?!?
Television is the only medium that is dynamic enough, persistent enough and intimate enough to even take a shot at Dune. You're right about a miniseries not being adequate though: It needs to be done Straczynski style, with each book becoming a season. Only the calculus of one episode pounding into you after another can capture the sheer power of the original Herbert storyline.
Ellen
mods metamodded as "Unfair"
I have to agree with the Luke Skywalker thing though, favorite quote "We wont last more then a few hours out here in the open.." .. reminded me of Luke on Hoth.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Mod this down, please so no other poor souls have to see that.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
IMHO, there is a limit on the kinds of stuff which kids should watch. Ultraviolent TV shows are fine... The more splattering blood and absurd special effects the better.
When little Billy hits his friend in the schoolyard, and all that happens is his friend gets angry, starts crying or he just gets in trouble... they're likely to be reminded the difference between television and reality.
Wrestling, poor sportsmanship and idolizing criminial behavior (a very small minority of hardcore music) strike me as far more dangerous. Inflicting pain, poor anger management, intimidation and getting in trouble are all strongly encouraged... often being the sole focus of the entertainment.
The former Power-rangers, WWF, WCW and other stuff are all examples of this stuff. Power Rangers? yes, have you seen how they treat that fat kid and that weird skinny guy? All the while using martial arts to solve their problems..
Another thing that bothered me was that they changed Dr. Uweh's motivation from interestly tragic (avenging the death of his wife) to cliched and obvious (ransoming his wife).You can tell them apart by their hats, though. That's what they're there for.
Seriously though, was Dr. Uweh introduced at all before he poisoned the Duke? If so, he blended into the background so well that I missed it completely. (Despite the fact that they revealed his betrayal 45 minutes in advance.)This would probably be enough to ruin it for me even if the rest was perfect. Music is important. As a matter of fact, I think sound in general is what makes Lynch's Dune what it is; they could have left out the picture entirely, and it would still be an impressive movie.
MSK
I agree with you on almost every point. The series really makes me realize how lucky we were to have a first-class director like Lynch do the movie. If only he'd had less constraints.
Or, if only the series had picked up quality actors and given a symphony orchestra to Toto for the score. That would have salved my wounds.
Can your IM do this?
What a waste of water!
--The basis of all love is respect
I just saw Peter Jackson's feeble attempt at making the Fellowship of the Rings. Now, I have read the trilogy five times, and I didn't expect it to be that good, but it really sucked ass.
First of all, you can't really expect the beauty and scope of a 500 page masterpiece to translate to 2 hours of film? They shouldn't have even tried. WHY did they have to write such bad dialogue--it was not middle earth-like at all. And who decided to leave out Tom Bombadil? He was like the most important character. And It was stupid to introduce Strider after Frodo realizes about gandalf and the ring. The casting decisions were horrible--I didn't believe Sean Astin as a hobbit for a minute. The shrinking effects were horrible and not-too-compelling. The costumes were stupid--they dwarves looked like they were wearing Tevas, for goodness sake. And don't get me started on the accents--who would ever believe that Elves have an English accent, when we know that Modern English didn't come into use until at least 2000 years after all the elves sailed from the havens. I'm definitely not going to waste my time or money by seeing the rest of these marketroid potboilers!
Personnaly, I'm just glad that I can find joy in other's perspectives about the things I cherish, and enjoy revisiting a world that I found interesting.
Spice-addicted eyes:
Herbert describes the eyes of the serious spice addicts as blue-within-blue, no whites; some of the older Fremen eyes are even indigo. Later books mention being unable to see the pupils either.
The spice-essence and crysknives (made from sandworm teeth) are described as glowing, so maybe this is where they got the glow idea.
Neither the film nor the miniseries quite captured the "no whites" aspect of the eyes. I think they may have experimented with different eye looks but having solidly dark-blue or black eyes would look quite disturbing.
My biggest gripe with the eyes is that the UV-reactive contacts or whatever they used aren't always straight; they look crooked in some scenes. In the scene with Liet Kynes inside the ornithopter while the worm attacked the crawler, did anyone notice that one eye was glowing, one wasn't? This was distracting. I thought for a moment that maybe it was intentional, because they were trying to illustrate that he was half-Fremen ("Liet serves two masters").
Worms:
The worm definitely looked more lively and believable than the one in the Lynch film; however, the teeth were kind of large to be making into crysknives. Maybe there are smaller teeth inside.
Ornithopters:
The ornithopters are described as gaining lift from both flapping action and jet-assist. The ones in the series seem to have turbo-fans in wings that can be moved to aim the direction of lift. They don't flap, but it didn't seem too bad a compromise.
Missing Scenes/combined scenes/altered scenes:
(SPOILERS)
In the book, Princess Irulan does not meet Paul until the end of the book. Bringing her in with the Saurdaukar for the dinner party is an interesting move; it sets up a different dynamic, since he will actually know something about the woman he (SPOILER!) will marry for political reasons at the end of the story; there will be more of a three-way dynamic with him and Chani. Not necessarily a bad change, depending on how it is played out.
We've scene some of the Lady Jessica's special abilities with language, but we haven't had a scene where the Shadout Mapes tests her and gives her a crysknife, symbolizing her role in fulfilling the prophecy. Also, we haven't seen her use Bene Gesserit Voice to control the pilots, so we are still missing a sense of her special powers.
We don't know anything about the Bene Gesserit breeding program and their quest to create a Kwitsatz Haderach (super-being). It will be interesting to see whether this is played up or not in the mini-series. One of the big flaws in the movie was that Paul developed literal Godlike abilities; in the book, his only "godlike" ability is his prescient vision; he is also a master of the Bene Gesserit fighting disciplines, Voice, and has developed himself into a combination Oracle/Mentat, but he doesn't have any physical superhuman abilities.
The hunter-seeker sequence was done differently; another Fremen woman was in the room, but I think this was done so that he could explain what was going on to her, and thus, to us. This wasn't necessarily a bad change. It lets the directors avoid the excessive use of internal monologue.
The detail involving the Harkonnen water ritual (guests slopping water on the floor, natives lining up to buy the squeezings from the towels) is a good one. It helps to indicate that House Atreides is committed to ending the abuses of the Harkonnen period.
Guild Navigators
I thought the Guild navigator sequence was quite nicely done, actually. Herbert gives out almost no details about the physical characteristics of the Guild Navigators in the books, except that they float on suspensors in tanks of spice gas, and that they are altered human forms. I don't think it is accurate that no one has ever seen one. They have human attendants. (Funny hat people #3).
Mahdi
The Fremen are calling Paul Atriedes "Mahdi" in a sort of questioning way, wondering if he may be the "Voice from the Outer World" coming to fulfill their prophecy. They aren't sure yet. They aren't calling him "Muad'Dib" yet. We've only heard that vaguely, in a dream sequence.
Leto's Betrayal
The Duke's betrayal sequence was handled reasonably well; we have some understanding of Yueh's motivations. It wasn't clear that Yueh actually took care of Paul and Jessica by providing them with stillsuits and survival kits and left Paul, but this was implied because he left Paul the ducal ring.
Baron Harkonnen
Well done; he is very fat and carries his weight on suspensors, but he doesn't fly maniacally around the rooms as in the Lynch film. He doesn't have horrifying acne. We hint at his interest in tender young boys without resorting to the weird "heart plug" stuff where he kills them and smears himself with their blood; that was pure Lynch over-the-top psychotic.
Language/characterization
Gurney does not threaten to castrate him in the book. He winds up with his knife poised to kill him and says ("we'd have joined each other in death.") "singing soprano" just sets the wrong tone as far as I'm concerned. It's a bit too flippant. In this scene in the book, Paul is genuinely frightened by the viciousness in which Gurney attacks him, testing his training to its limit. He may be a snotty adolescent but he still has some respect for his arms-master and sword-master. Which leads me to...
Paul's Character:
I'm a big unsure of Paul's snotty, depressed character. In the book, he's very confident of his abilities, and troubled by his prescient dreams and by the move. I'm reserving judgment until I see how they develop his character. Remember, he is supposed to display such amazing charisma, loyalty, and judgement that the Fremen would willingly die for him. Some serious changes have to take place to make this believable!
I was actually about to post such a comment myself, but now I'll save the trouble. I suppose the maneuverable stabilators with vectored thrust fans were a fairly reasonable interpretation. However I do think actual flapping-wing ornithopters were what Herbert intended in the novels; probably as another Baroque/Renaissance era evocation (cf. Leonardo, etc.). Here are some supporting points:
1. Advanced materials (e.g. nanocomposites?) would presumably be available with the necessary strength-to-weight ratios for birdlike flight.
2. The desert climate on Arrakis would provide significant thermal updrafts, which a large winged craft could use to stay aloft with minimal power. Add flapping and you get even more cruise time & maneuverability. And they almost certainly had high-efficiency, tiny power plants available.
3. Don't forget the whole Mentat angle - since the NeoLuddites (name?) trashed all the computers, basically all of science & math had to be reimplemented using only human minds. Maybe flapping wings seemed more natural or easier to develop (after all that's what most pre-Wright Bros. designs for powered flight seemed to try). Maybe they never rediscovered Bernoulli's work, and thus the properties behind the fixed wing's lift.
#include "disclaim.h"
"All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
#include "disclaim.h"
"All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
A LOT of complaining going on...I thought I'd throw out an opinion...
I was 12 when I first tried to read the books. I don't know if any of you had this same experience, but I'd get 25 pages or so into the book and be completely lost. I put it down twice, but the third time was definitely the charm. I got through all of the books (the real ones, not the crappy ones by Herbert's son...skip that) and find myself entranced by the whole series. That being said, why do we continue to point out that the storyline isn't so easy to follow? That seems absurd that ANY director (even Lynch...) can make FH's presentation of a totally alien culture something easily understood. Isn't part of the fun the exploration of things that don't quite make sense? Aren't we just feeding into the MTV culture by spoon-feeding plotlines and characters?
I think the mini-series is pretty cool. A bit slow at times, but that's the editor's fault. Right now it feels like we could either get by with 2 episodes or put back some of the subplots.
There ya have it. 2 cents even.
---- Please be nice in case my Slashdot karma ~= my real life karma.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
I figured they were just trying to make it something like cat's eyes: when my cat is directly facing me in low light, his eyes glow an incredible green color, almost village of the damned-like. Oh well, Bad CG does explain it a lot better I suppose :-)
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
Everybody here is tearing the miniseries apart pretty well, and I agree with almost all of the criticisms. Just to provide a little variety, though, I thought I'd mention the things that I liked about the miniseries, in comparison to Lynch's movie. (Incidentally, they really invited comparisons, didn't they? With so much material to work with, I thought that the miniseries would be very different from the movie, but at times it seems like a shot-by-shot remake... which just highlights its inferiority. The "worm vs. harvester" scene is an excellent example.)
Anyway, things I liked:
The interstellar spacecraft (what do they call it, a "highliner"?) was incredible. It was among the best CGI I've ever seen, and it had the right look, too. (Immense, alien, chaotic, etc.) They also get a consolation prize for the Guild Navigator, who was excellent, but not quite as good as Lynch's.
I like this Baron Harkonnen. The Baron in the movie was too over-the-top; I have a pretty strong stomach, but I still tend to fast-forward through most of his scenes on Giedi Prime. In Sci Fi's version, the gratuitous neck-breaking was sufficient to establish the Baron's evilness, and they wisely left it at that. I'm sure people will disagree with me on that point, though.
The sets were nice. They weren't as interesting as Lynch's sets, but at least I could tell them apart (unlike the characters). They just looked a whole lot better, even if they didn't fit the film as well.
And... that's it. It was pretty bad. I wonder what Lynch could have done with Dune if he had had access to the sort of technology that today's directors take for granted?
MSK
One thing I remember particularly strongly from the book is the epigraph to one of the sections, describing Paul:
Never take moderation advice from sigs, including this one.
Dune was so much cooler when only the hard core sf fans knew about it, but now everyone will know, and it will get ruined.
Hmm, kind of like what happened to Slashdot, after all those 6 figure users showed up.
Who were these Sardukar escorting the princess? When I saw them I thought These are the emporors elite troops? They look like they need a nap! When Scifi shows this again, pay particular attention to the leader of the bodyguards when the find the princess hitting on Luke...er Paul. Doesn't his expression look totally vacant, like he's just had his brain removed and he hasn't slept in the past 90 hours?
I read the internet for the articles.
Did the first hour have too much exposition for anyone else? It really seemed to drag on quite a bit (though I guess I should expect that for a 4.5 hour miniseries!)
By my tape, there were just shy of 30 minutes of advertising. This is pretty remarkable, considering that most two-hour TV blocks contain over 36 minutes of ads (40 if you're watching certain cable channels!)
Online wrestling as a trading card game? WWF With Authority.
Whether the entire glowing blue effect is the right convention to portray spice addiction is a different argument entirely.
Well, the inevitable comparisons to the movie might as well start now.
I found that they took alot of the ideas from the movie and did them with less style and in a cheesier manner than the movie did it. I thought the effects were distracting because they looked so computery, and what the hell was the idea with that guild navigator, it looked like some kind of retarded squid with huge earlobes. I also thought the acting wasn't as good as the movie, although the movie's nothing special in that department either.
However, I still ain't hating it. Mostly because I like the story and they have the luxury of taking their time with it so things develop alot more realistically.
I couldn't finish watching the show last night. I loved both the book and the movie (probably because I saw the movie first
The litany of fear - Left out "Fear is the little death." Nothing huge but still annoying.
The meeting with Gurney (ignoring the huge mischaracterization of Gurney in the mini-series
Then there were also several other missing items. Most notably the Glow-globes, the Mentat's stained lips (in the mini-series they just look like every other costumed idiot) and the bushy eyebrows of Thufir.
And of course I hated the portrayal of Paul and the evidentally early entry of Chani as the maid. (Though the Chani portion hasn't been proven yet but that seems to be the only explenation of their focus on the maid).
All in all it seemed like there was MUCH less information in the mini-series than there was in the original movie (or the book of course) yet it's going to be an hour and a half longer (or so). Seems like instead of making the book clearer they've just used it as a general guideline and added a bunch of useless (and poorly written) footage.
Argh.
-Zane
This sig is worse than my last.
As someone, I am ashamed to admit in such a forum, who has not seen the 1984 (?) movie, nor read the actual book (go lazy bums! yeah!), I thought the first part last night was very very cool. Very interesting, and I am definitely going to go back to watch the movie and read the books.
I mean, I have a general idea of the story from other people telling it to me, but that's just not enough for Dune. The whole plot line is just so complex and the characters are so interesting. I wonder how I managed to *not* read it all these years.
I realize all this is probably preaching to the converted, but I'd like to mention that at the very least this mini-series is attracting those of us who haven't had the chance to read the book or watch the movie yet. I'd say it's converting some people, which is probably always a good thing when it comes to SciFi.
The only part I *didn't* like about the show last night was my roommate saying multiple times, "It's not Harkahnnen, it's *Harkohnnen*." Sigh. Oh well. Time to sit down and read.
rest assured i was on the internet within minutes registering my disgust.
--
There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
Doesn't anyone else find it funny that there are computer ads during Dune? (a culture that does not allow computers )
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
Looks like the Ministry of Silly Hats lives on. Someone had a lot of fun designing some of the stupidest looking hats ever seen on the small screen. Other than that, I guess it successful - we didn't even check out X-Files once.
One thing the mini-series misses big time is the total reverance for water on Dune. They pay lip service to it in a couple places. But they neglect to imbue the sets and the characters with it. There are no seals on the doors and the stillsuits are comical. Keynes is seen casually swirling a glass of water. He shows none of the respect for it that a true Fremen would.
The scene with the assasin running around makes the Atreides look like keystone cops. There is nothing to show the training, discipline and loyalty of the Atriedes or any of the forces for that matter. Remember, the Duke and his senior staff can issue orders with a hand gesture.
What I can't see is how anyone who has read the book can say this is good. It has mangled the plot and the characters. It has stripped away all the culture that Herbert created in Dune. It completely misses or ignores central themes to the book. I mean what is suppose to be good about this?
I am horribly disappointed in this mini-series. To someone who has never read Dune, it will leave them with the impression that this is just so much cheap Sci-Fi and hence why bother reading the book. The movie does a much better job over-all, with the exception of the sonic rays or whatever they were suppose to be.
It seems to me that it's a lot easier to sympathize with Dr. Yueh in the movie, since he is clearly a broken man. In the miniseries, he's just selfish.
MSK
I thought some things were improvements over the movie, such as the steersman/space travel scene, in which the special effects aged poorly in the movie. I also thought the acting was bad... William Hurt is a very bored (and boring) Leto. The accents SOME of the actors were TRYING to pull off were bad. As far as the Luke Skywalker stuff, that is intentional. He's supposed to be a spoiled brat until he goes into the desert, his father dies, etc.
The emporer's robes of office consisted of an ornate Sardaukar uniform. House Corrino does this as a subtler-than-a-fist reminder of exactly where their power lies, not to mention a major morale boost to the Sardaukar.
OTOH, we are programmed to see a supreme leader wearing military garb and think "banana republic"...
--The basis of all love is respect
first, let me state that i thouroughly enjoyed the david lynch version of dune, although it was by no means a conventional scifi action movie. lynch is an artist, asking him to direct a scifi action movie is like asking dali to design a logo for a fast food chain.
anyway, from watching part one, it looks like scifi has just remade lynch's version, but replaced eagle-eyed cinematography with phantom menace style costumes and effects. hemos saiys it is a "step in the right direction", but moving away from the vision of a brilliant cinematographer and towards an intellectual disaster such as the phantom menace is not the direction i want things to be going.
the story of dune is not an action movie, true fans of the novels know this. anyway, i'll reserve further judgement until i've seen more. at this point, a star wipe to jar jar in a stillsuit doesn't seem out of the question.
-=tonyt=-
I'm a huge fan of the Dune novel series, and the original Dune movie was fantastic IMO. I had high hopes for the mini-series -- according to a number of pre-reviews that I had read, the Director's aim for the mini-series was to be as faithful to the novel as possible. With 6 hours of time to use, I felt that the series had a good chance of achieving its aim.
:-) There was no explanation of the hand in the box scene, the initial meeting between Liet and Paul, or many of Paul's precognitive thoughts. Some of the scenes made up for this lack with extraneous dialog, but the characters came off as over-explaining in these scenes.
:-) Princess Irulan wears a costume covered with butterflies, and the still-suits looked like something out of J.Crew.
:-) with no explanation whatsoever. None of the feel of the betrayal is captured, and the entire time spent on Caladan is portrayed in the first 10 minutes of the film.
:-) if you missed the first 2 hours.
The reality? Disappointing.
From the lack of the "voice overs" to a dismaying "modernization" of the language and outright re-writing of many scenes and plot devices, the mini-series is quite different and lacking in both atmosphere and execution.
Problems:
Lack of voice-overs: the "inner voices" were used with good effect to show the internal emotions and motivations of the characters in both the book and the movie. In the mini-series, many of the scenes are just stupid and confusing (for someone who hasn't read the novel several times like me
Modernization of the language: part of the impact of the movie was created through the wonderfully archaic turn of phrase used by the characters. Not in the mini-series. We have Baron Harkonnen babbling things like "Kinda like firing your boss, eh?", and Paul as a petulant rich boy without an ounce of his destiny showing through. Duncan Idaho has a gratuitous Scottish accent, too.
Costumes: One word: stupid.
Rewriting: Duncan Idaho is killed by a missile instead of a slow-stunner pellet (in fact very little is made of the shields, other than a scene with Gurney and Paul fighting where Gurney is made out to be an overweight, out-of-shape old man), and Paul and Jessica are somehow magically transported to the desert and found by Fremen (with Duncan and Thufir!) during the Harkonnen attack (instead of overcoming their captors with the Voice and crashing in the desert). Huge chunks of the Harkonnen attack and the days before the Atreides leave Caladan are just plain missing.
Characterization: shallow. I don't think I could tell you from pictures which characters were which among Pieter, Thufir, Duncan, or Doctor Uweh.
Sets: somewhat nicely done, although you can tell that most of the film was shot on a soundstage. Much of the baroque feel of the movie is gone, unfortunately, and while I wasn't looking for a clone, I feel that the atmosphere of the mini-series just doesn't do the novel justice like the movie did (light globes with wings, ornate controls on space ships, rain pouring down on Caladan, etc).
Music: there was music? Nearly unnoticed, unlike the movie, which had a theme that has stuck with me since the first time I watched it.
Direction: fairly good, but the pacing is off in several areas. As mentioned previously, Paul and Jessica appear in the desert (after a commercial break
All in all, worth watching if you are a Dune fan just so you can rag on the series. You're better off renting the movie (or watching one of the three versions you have on video tape
Regards,
-scott
Regards,
-scott
Thats what I did so I could get all these nifty channels. :)
Paul displays incredible maturity, discipline, and self-control even from the very beginning in the book. I'm disappointed that they didn't stress his Mentat training more. "A Mentat Duke would be most formidable."
The ornithopter thing makes sense since we have no real working function designs that could operate at anywhere near the speeds, cargo carrying capacity, and cost efficiency of the machines from the books, so why bother showing one? You can wave away anti-gravity and star drives, but a purely mechanical propulsion system can't really be BS'ed unless it's flat-out fantasy and magic is involved.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
I personally thought it stank. The pacing was way too slow. At one hour in, it felt like 1.5. With 6 hours to work with, one should be able to include most everything and have it make sense. Yet the acting was so soporific that there wasn't any time to do so.
I was watching with a friend who hadn't read the book in a long time, and the friend was royally confused by it. I knew what was going on, but would have much rather had things better referenced and explained. Or at least properly introduce the characters. The secondary characters (Gurney, Duncan, Hawat, Yeoh) are almost indistinguisable and nonexistant. Jessica seems a background figure, an "Also starring" type.
And Paul and the Duke were so horribly miscast. Paul is intelligent, a born leader, a near Mentat, Benne Gesserit trained, even before getting to Arrakis. Yet this Paul seems like an even-more-annoying Luke, some whining, half asleep blond kid who hates where he is. And the Duke, he wants to come off as somewhat royal and impressive, he comes off as asleep.
Finally, there were changes that were just pointless. Why bring Irulan into the plot at all? She is something of a ghostly narrator until the very end. Why bring Chani into the plot as a servent (or I at least think that is Chani, if not, who is she and why bother)? Why change things in needless ways. You need to cut things (although cutting the Bull's head was annoying to me, it said a lot about the Atrades) when adapting such a large novel, but you shouldn't need to add random junk.
Nicholas C Weaver
nweaver@cs.berkeley.edu
Test your net with Netalyzr
The movie was produced by Dino DeLaurentiss and showed it. Everything he does looks like a Comic Book. (His other credits include Barbarella and Flash Gordon, which at least work as comics.)
I have to see I found this Harkonen far more sinister and threatening because he *wasn't* played over the top. Again, he was a real villian not a comic villian.
Hurt as Leto was a bit wooden, but I felt that was appropriate as it helped establish the wall between him and Paul.
All in all, the only thing I can think of that I missed from the disaster that was the movie was Sting as Feyd, but I'm holding judgement on the series' Feyd until he gets to do more.
All in all I think this is a much much better adaption then the movie was. The one defense of the movie is that Dune really CAN'T be told in tow hours. That having been said, the mvoie wasted a hell of a lot of tiem on trivialities and then skipped 95% of the story wiotha quick voice over.
And the Sandworm riding scene at the end with Italian surf music in the background was just awful. No two ways about it.
The Stillsuits looked very lame - once again - done better by Lynch. The castles, guild gear, Corinno ballroom, and scenes of Geidi Prime were far far more compelling and engrossing in Lynch's film.
The acting was terrible. Gurney was made out to be a tough dimwit. The actor playing Paul was bad in so many ways I can't count. The Baron's part was grossly overacted. William Hurt obviously did not enjoy being in this series - his lines are delivered in a perfunctory fashion, like he is waiting to leave.
It doesn't seem like any of the talent in this series outside of William Hurt is ready for even network TV.
I agree on the ornithopters although I'll go futher and say that NONE were ornithopters. By definition, Ornithopters flap.
They're also slow which is probably why they went with the jet-fly-- so they could do a nifty high speed chase scene. Ah well, a small quibble in my book.
Yes I also really liked the blocky, early CGI sheilds in the movie. About the only thing, other then Sting, that I did like in the movie.
In re The Voice, both effects seem inappropriate but necessary to me. I don't see The Voice as making you sound either like a frog (the movie version or like you are standing in an echo chanber (the mini series.) The problm is, its really a mental power that I don't see as "sounding" like anything, but they need to do something to flag it so I find both equally annoying/acceptable.
At least (so far) they haven't turned it into a sonic version of scanner's blowing up heads like I recall they did in the movie (was a long time ago though so my memory may be fuzzy.)
My biggest complaint with the Voice scenes so far is that noone who didn't read the book will have a clue what was going on.
6pm... when I watched, and then two more back to back showings following.
Oh my, here I read about the series like I were to see it someday soon now.
Pity us Nordics - give us our fix,
oh mighty ol' feeders of analog pics
(you know, those pricks who barely know *nix)!
This time I won't even go into my typical "blah, you yankees don't even know good old Lem^H^H^H..." - won't.
TV should be not only digitized but netified sooner than it's going to be. Oh well.
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
How's that for a controversial subject line?
In general I liked the costuming over-all. It visually made the point, at least to me, that the emperial characters were all to one degree or another a spoiled, decadent over-caste.
I'm truely sorry for those that don't like the production. I'm really looking forward to going home and firing up the ol idiot box tonight. I wish I could share that feeling with those who aren't.
I DO agree that the mentats were downplayed and thats unfortunate. Harkonnen's mentat at least got some exposure, but didn't Atriedes have one too who was important? (Its been quite awhile since I read the book.)
That having been said I still think this is already much better then the movie and I'm enjoying it.
I hear they spent three whole months on the post-production and it shows!
The WB has never seen anything like this before. Take that, 7th Heaven!
www.ridiculopathy.com
> I decided on this action after reading about
> the Dungeons & Dragons teenagers in America,
> and all the reality-removed mischief they got
> up to, thanks to the influence of SF.
Do you realize this is an urban legend?
First I must take issue with the costuming.
Why were the emperor's elite soldiers, the Sadurkar (sp?) terror troopers, etc, etc, wearing giant poofy berets? And did anybody else expect Shadam the IV to break out into 'I Will Survive'? The costuming was confusing at best, and outright silly at worst. Irulan's butterflies were really surreal, and having to listen to my husband sing 'Triangle Man' every time Feyd was shown with the surreal triangle plastered to his back got old. ;)
And then there was the casting...
Now not all of the actors suffered from blandness disease, but a lot of them did. These are very -vibrant- people in the books, and in the Lynch film. And yet so many of them this time seemed to suffer from 'Blah'. They also seemed mis-cast. Stilgar in particular drove me nuts. He's supposed to be this very thin, powerful looking warrior from the deep desert, and instead we get a pudgy generic sort of fellow. I could forgive Gurney having gone to weight, but Stilgar, who must actively fight in an environment of limited water? Couldn't they at least have tried with makeup or something to make him look a -little- less like a stereotype of an accountant? Kudos however, to Baron Harkonen, who managed despite weak writing to manage as best he could with the part. I loved the actor as Potiphar in _Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat_ as well.
Confusion?
Did anybody else have trouble guessing who was who half the time? I don't think a very good job was done with character identification. For me, this hurt the story. It didn't mean much that Yueh was the traitor when we didn't know who he was. (And well, who can beat Dean Stockwell in the Lynch film? Admittedly, it made it harder for me to watch him as Al in Quantum Leap, years later, but it was still a great performance.)
I won't even begin to touch some of the weird stuff, like Irulan showing up way too early, and the apparent switch between nice expensive visuals and really -cheap- sets. There are, after all, limitations to what one can do with a complicated story like Dune. I was a just disappointed, I guess, with the director. He did Earth 2 as well, a series I really enjoyed. I was expecting a lot more. Still, I'll keep watching it, for scenes like the one with the fountain and the water squeezings, bright moments of redemption in what otherwise manages to be a farce.
"The best special effect is one the audience doesn't realize they've seen."
This is a near-quote from George Lucas w/r/t episode I.
When tricks like the blue eyes work so seamlessly, you stare at the pixels on your screen to see the vibrance, or the details of the worm, that's when it works.
I love B5. The fact that so many scenes were shot on 'virtual sets' (aka blue screen matte chopped through a computer) and the damned show still looks real was one of the things that attracted me to it.
Too bad Netter Digital has gone bankrupt.. and I can't try to get one of those SGI 540's.. drool...
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
I found this Harkonnen more charismatic - I could BUY him as a leader. I can see him as dangerous because of his mind and a disarming sense of humor.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
As for the Maud dib (sp?), yeah, I don't remember it being that early either.
I don't know why they can't flap. Herbert made a point of calling them ornithopters, instead of just aircraft or flyers or whatever, so obviously he liked the effect.
And while we're whining, why do both movies make the spice eyes glow? It's not as bad this time, but "blue-on-blue" doesn't mean "neon".
This next song is very sad. Please clap along. -- Robin Zander
Okay,
I'll first reiterate that i think its MUCH better then the worthless movie.
That having been said, even with the drecrease in the cost of CGI in recent yearts, the clearly did not have the budget to do this the way we'd all like to see.
6 hours just isn't enough to tell a story of this depth and complexity. The plot "feels" greatly accelerated and jumps at tiems for no well motivated reason.
And there were a numerb fo desert shots tonight where they tried to save money by using a static backdrop for the sansd that just didn't work.
Al lthat said I'm STILL enjoying this. There is a lot thats good about this production. I like the actors and the director's visual sense, and the interiors are rather stunning.
All in all, after two nights, I give it an 8 out 10 for a valient and reasonable effort.
But there is still room for someone to do the 20 hour epic and do it right.
However I will say this about what I have seen so far:
Good points:
The bad:
Overall? I'm taping it and watching it (heck, I got off-LINE to watch it). Not perfect, but a damn sight better than a lot of stuff out there. I hope it encourges more risk-taking and miniseries (instead of over-extended series).
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
The little mouse of the desert, that procreates rapidly and can find water under even the harshest circumstances...it's also a symbol on their moon, like you said, but Paul was referring to the mouse of the desert.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
I've seen several comments along the lines of "the bastards don't know what an ornithopter is!"
I strongly suspect that they do know what it is, and may have tried to portray them. I happen to think that a flapping machine is just gonna look dumb, no matter how large the special effects budget is. I suspect, for the non-die-hard Dune fan, having an ornithoper is just gonna be too weird, and get in the way of their enjoyment.
I've always thought they were a pretty hokey idea, dating back from the early days of SF. I recall them popping up in some early Clarke, or perhaps Asimov work.
It was ages since I read Dune, but I don't seem to recall that ornithopers being more than just mentioned in passing. Is there a reason why people are so insistant that they be a part of any canonical film version of Dune?
Personally, I liked the Luke-ish qualities of this miniseries's Paul. It seems to me that a younger person in his position (having his life and essentially, his freedom, taken away by the responsibilities imposed on him by his position in society) would be quite likely to have a somewhat more rebellious outlook on life. At least, I sure would. I like the new Paul.
--
SecretAsianMan (54.5% Slashdot pure)
Washington, DC: It's like Hollywood for ugly people.
What about cartoons? Do you limit certain cartoons that aren't based on reality?
Being a parent myself, I believe it's important to encourage children to explore their imaginations. How dry every piece of literature would be if one's mind were not allowed to wander into the unknown. We would have no Jabberwocky or Grinch. No Aladdin or Little Mermaid.
--
Wooden armaments to battle your imaginary foes!
That being said, it's been a lot more faithful to the book so far, though there have been some irritating deviations and omissions. It is definitely nice to see the Baron being played closer to the book than the moronic pustule Lynch gave us. It's also nice to see the role of the Bene Gesserit being given its proper weight instead of being totally glossed over the way it was in the Lynch film. And I have to agree that Paul-as-Luke-Skywalker is really irritating, but it is worth noting that he does begin the book as a rather spoiled teenage boy, however disciplined he might have been.
Despite being mildly disappointed, I'd keep watching just 'cause Irulan is a babe.
--
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
My problem wasn't the development of the Doctors character, since it wasn't all that developed in the book either (more than the movie, but he was never a central character except in the one act of betrayal - well - double betrayal)
My problem was what didn't get explained. Part of whats importent about the Dr is that he is Suk trained. It was only mentioned once in the movie but, supposedly a Suks training to be loyal can't be broken.
There were alot of little things like that. Stuff that is easy to explain in a book format, but not in a movie, since it has to be worked into the dialog somehow.
Another similar problem - the sheilds. The sheilds deflect a fast blow, but admit something moving slowly. This is a very important aspect of the fight.
Also... Guild navigators were never seen or even described in the physical sense until the second book. Also, I seem to remember Irulan being blond.
Also...I seem to remember more dialog with Piter and the Baron.... again another unexplained thing - whats a mentat? Or the fact that Idaho is a mentat.
The book was still better, but this blows the original movie out of the water. I can't wait for tonight.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Or the fact that Idaho is a mentat.
Idaho isn't a mentat... yet. Idaho became a mentat in the second book ("Dune Messiah") when the Bene Tleilax 'regenerated' Duncan Idaho in their Axlotl Tanks from some of Duncan's cells. They then 'trained' Duncan to be a mentat and gave him as a 'gift' to Paul Atreides. (I'm trying to explain this with revealing as little as possible. =)
Number9
Now, let me start with the down points (a littl more refined a list than I put in yesterday's story):
- Casting was ok to horrible. Hurt is a good actor, but should never have been made to play Leto. The guy playing Paul was good (see below), but the Barron was just not imposing enough.
- Paul was written all wrong. Read the book and pay attention to the turmoil that Paul's going through. He senses his destiny, but can't put his finger on it. He's moody, but he's also a brilliant leader by nature. Not much of this comes through in the character in this miniseries.
There are some thing I would liked to have seen, but most of it is secondary to those points.On the good side I point to everything that I liked about the book. The fremen are still a mystery at this point in the story, but I love the whole guild idea and the machinations between house Attradies and the rest of the empire. Jessica is weakened slightly in this telling, but I still love her character.
Feyd is well done, here. A real mad wolf the way he comes across in the book. Can't wait to see how they handle the final fight.
Some odd choices were made. Paul voicing lines that were his father's in the book (about how to deal with the smugglers). The princess showing up early and playing nice with Paul. Some of it, I'm sure, was because he felt that the audience couldn't keep up with the story, given how much he had to cut out, but I'm not sure I like the changes.
There's still some questions that I have. Without doing the David Lynch style voice-overs, how do they intend to handle the water of life? For that matter, what about the confrontation with the emperor at the end where about 50% of what's going on is in Paul's head? That could be handled very badly, but we'll see.
So far so good. I'm actually excited to see what this guy does with the rest of the series.
I think you're trolling, but I'll respond anyhow. SF can be superior at providing "life skills and insights", compared with "traditional" fiction, in much the same way that a metaphor can be better at conveying a message than an anecdote. Your children are missing out on a wealth of experience simply not available in non-speculative fiction. There's not a single sentance in all of Hal Clement or Robert Heinlein that could harm a child, and much that made me who I am today.
Two points:
-- Jeff Paulsen
somethings were certainly done a LOT better than the 1984 version .. (where there just wasn't enough time) and the SFX were a lot better. The costuming - well .. i just never pictured paul wearing a leather leaotard when he was walking around in the desert.
I have to say the dialog between characters is a lot better .. however .. no matter HOW faithful they planned to be to the book there is just too much there.
I reread the dinner party section as an example(page 142 for those that own the book :P) and there was a LOT there that was left out. the whole byplay where the smugglers side with the atredies, (and scare the crap out of the banker(the guy dressed in purple) who is trying to bait paul, and where paul shocks everyone by maneuvering him into a corner (verbally). Not to mention the whole plot of jessica being the traider. (and 1 sentance abotu 'imperial conditiong' certainly doesnt due justice to HOW deep that betrayel had to go.)
im also a little dissapointed at the death of duncan (ESPECIALLY if they are going to film the other books), and a lot of the political intrigue is gone. I mean , i read the books .. i *knew* he was going to die .. but when I watched it . i had NO idea he was just killed. (till the 2nd time) with a plot line THAT important to the book .. you would think they would have made it a bit more clear.
paul acting like a brat is ok .. since he WAS .. untill he went to the desert. (even if I'm not sure how he just appeared there .. without a stillsuit - commercials are great)
i would also have like to seen the 30 mins they took out for the american version ( nudity smudity .. im hoping they put some plot back in.)
all in all .. we have to take all this with a grain of salt . its a movie .. not the book .. when is a movie EVER as good as what you can imagine by reading the book ? ill watch the epispode tonight .. but it will be a flip on tuesday .. the girl in dark angel is kinda cute :P
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
Basically, what I've seen so far is far superior in terms of a representation of the written work on the small screen than Dune The Movie was.
There are a few exceptions - the stillsuits in the movie were far superior than those in the series, for example.
But, the ornithopters were killer, the acting is much more balanced and believable, the feel is very good. Cinematography, if not quite so epic, is much more believable. And that, alone, makes this a good TV series.
People forget that all science fiction requires that the viewer suspends disbelief. This acheived it; the movie did not. I'm not saying the acting is better, it's just more balanced, more in tune with the written work it's based on.
But hey, what do I know, I'm just a lifetime member of Cinema Seattle, and watch a few hundred international films every year.
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?