Slashdot Mirror
Living In A Microsoft Country (And Speaking The Language)?
WinterKnight asks: "I live in a country that's completely under Microsoft domination. My system, runs a non-Microsoft OS (lets just say its not a UNIX variant, and yes, it's a PC). It's hard. Really hard. Especialy when most e-mail from people arrive as a MS-Word attachments, or they use Excel for making even a silly, simple list of items. Its also hard when 90% of the web sites from that local country are 'designed for IE5+ and above'. What makes it even more difficult is that Netscape has difficulty reading the language, because the format is also IE-only. The country I am refering to is Israel. Microsoft seems to have it locked up here because of Hebrew, which isn't only a diffrent set of fonts, but is also written backwards - from the right to the left. Very few systems other then Windows have support for that. Mine doesn't fully support it as well, either. Living like this is very hard, and I keep asking myself if maybe I should just give up and be 'one of the crowd'?" Localization in Linux is improving, but how close is total Linux support for languages like Japanese and Hebrew that are difficult to fit into your normal, left-to-right, single byte character infrastructure?
"I am well aware that once I do something like this, I'll probably begin to neglect the computer and like it a lot less, because for me it will mean the loss of my freedom. I've never liked Windows, and for a reason. But this freedom keeps costing me a hard price of being 'not compatible' with just about all of the computing resources available. Linux does have programs that can read Word and Excel files, but unfortunately, they can't read Hebrew Word and Excel files. Same goes with the 'IE Hebrew standard' for HTML.
So, here I am, asking the Slashdot community. What can I do?"
Your comment that "Microsoft seems to have it locked up" the market is absurd. I have heard zero evidence that MS has acted in any anti-competitive way in Isreal. The free market seems to be functioning efficiently. Microsoft is providing you with an acceptable product at a price the market tolerates.
If the product were unacceptable, or the price was too high, the market would demand an alternative solution, and a commercial software vendor would create it.
I just don't understand what the problem with using software that gets the job done.
For one thing, why are those two views mutually exclusive?
They're mutually exclusive because you can't always "buy what works best" and at the same time "don't support corporations whose business tactics you disapprove of." Yes, you could qualify those statements as you point out, but that's not what i'm talking about. The people uttering these things tend to do so in a smug, condescending sort of way. They certainly don't qualify them.
Doesn't the way a corporation does business affect whether or not the product will work best for me? (i.e. in a year, I'll have to upgrade because everybody else did and they're all using a new file format which isn't supported by my "old" software.)
Not necessarily. Using Microsoft as an example, I would be more likely to take issue with their underhanded tactics against competitors than their "upgrade treadmill." I think that helps to illustrate how business tactics don't necessarily affect the product.
When dealing with a computer newbie, for example, people might just say ...
You don't find a whole lot of computer newbies around /. :) Even if you did think you were talking to a computer newbie, on /. you would at least acknowledge that you were simlifying things for that reason so as not to attract a ton of corrections, complaints, and flames, not to mention the wrath of moderators who might deem your post to be flamebait or troll.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Not likely... you said "low-priced." Buying Windows, plus Office and whatever other additional software you need (virtually all of which has a free Linux-based clone), will cost you a ton, and then you get to pay for the upgrades. If you need a more stable Windows, be prepared to sever your left arm as payment.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
True, but history does give plenty of examples where religion was the cause, or at least the excuse and means for war, civil or otherwise.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Oh yeah... and that's not to mention the various other forms of repression that governments of whatever form would inflict on the people in the name of religion.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
But to get done what you need to get done, you have 3 options:
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
Learning another language is a great idea, particularly if you work with computers (sys admin or programming), but it's a little harsh to expect ordinary Basque speakers to do so.
u x/. Info on other Basque localisations is at http://www.dmoz.org/World/Euskara/Informatika/
y =kde-i18n-Basque.
There are lots of OSs that support Basque, including MacOS, Windows and Linux - did you try looking?
I did a quick seach for Basque & Linux and found the following Basque language resources at Open Directory: http://www.dmoz.org/World/Euskara/Informatika/Lin
Also, KDE appears to have a Basque localised version: http://rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?quer
I can imagine some situations where dual-booting makes sense: testing different development environments, developing for a *nix target platform, training, etc. But for a lot of users, it just doesn't make sense.
you've never used a true IBM os have you? OS/2, OS/400, and AIX all support as many (if not more) languages and locales as Windows, and HAVE for a lot longer than windows.
Remember that the "I" in IBM stands for International. One thing you learn VERY quickly at IBM is how to NLS enable your code... nothing is hardcoded in any language unless it is no meant for the user to see (assertions for example) and those all have language independent identifiers (mix of ascii letters and numbers).
There's a point in the development cycle at IBM where you have to have all translated messages put in place, because the resource file will be sent to translation centers all over the world to encode to the local language... having to change a message after that date involves begging pleading and a chunk of budget.
There's an entire test phase (TVT - Translation Verification Test) where they bring in people who speak the langauge natively and walk through EVERY interaction the user can have and validate that the messages are all properly translated, and used. (a buddy of mine got a severity 1 defect raised against him because after translation the highlighted shortcut letters on his menu spelled out a profanity after translation, his response: find a different translation, or move the shortcut characters.)
> PS: I know this will get mod'ed down as it's Pro-Microsoft, but before you pull the trigger, re-read the post. He has NO
> alternatives.
This, in a nutshell, is exactly why our correspondent should find a way to create an alternative to Microsoft. When you trust one source to solve all of your questions, & you encounter a problem that their work cannot solve, you have found yourself at a dead end.
This is Matt Walsh's argument for avoiding MS-ware, & it makes sense. Do you want to trust your livelihood to the software equivalent of monoculture?
I hope our correspondent from Israel studies the more thoughtful answers to his question, & realises that it may be time for him to contribute to an alternative to the de facto MS standard in his country. It's either that, or hope that Microsoft can succeed where King Canute failed -- fight the ebbing tide.
Geoff
I think I see a trend here. Maybe for them it really would be easier to muzzle the entire internet than to produce p
Really? I've installed the latest KDE (from source), and all I hebrew characters show up as spaces in Konq, and ??? in the window manager. What else do I need to do?
Either way, I have to say that MS is miles ahead - a default install of MSIE 5.5 allows fully functional Hebrew browsing (without playing around with fonts) plus Hebrew text entry and full bilingual and bidirectional support across the OS.
Though, I have noticed that Israelis have a strong tendancy to send windows-1255 HTML email for no good reason.
And, when MacOS X comes out, you can have the warm fuzzies associated with knowing that, even though you're running on a proprietary GUI layer, you are running an open source OS underneath.
_Deirdre
(Praises from a satisfied user).
If I had no or limited funds, or the ferry operator was a real s.o.b., I'd build the bridge.... and it wouldn't take very long, either, because several of my fellow travellers just happen to have self-replicating bridges in their backpacks, which, since they are trying to improve them, they will let me use for free.
The analogy is specious. The hard parts are already done. Even on a dog-slow machine, a Linux install takes a couple of hours. Konqueror comes with, alreddie, no downloading new components across the web just to start surfing.
Besides, once the bridge is built, then everyone can walk across for free... but it's for pedestrians only. Jokers with more money than sense riding in their big Land Crushers have to take the ferry and pay the toll troll. Me, I need the exercise. Seeya....
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Open source, open minds.
The command line is the front line
I remember just how irritated I was when the Mandrake 7.2 update started downloading thirty four meg worth of KDE internationalizations, 46 packages in all, from Afrikaans to Welsh, including not only Hebrew but three versions of Chinese... things which, sadly enough, are of little use to this American.
So don't tell me Linux isn't internationalized from here to Mars and back. I had to go fscking clean up my hard drive. At least RPM made it reasonably easy...
Yeah, I know, I'm committing heresy again, blasting Linux. But hey, at least the packages are the, for free, for those that need them... and, as has been pointed out, Konqueror even goes so far as to grok MSFT's version of Hebrew.
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We're here, we're free,
get used to it.
At the risk of massive flames:
The so-called freedom you are claiming sounds a lot more like rebellion; which is not the same thing. You have imprisoned yourself in the solitary confinement of your unnamed OS.
Unless your reason for not liking Windows has to do with functional problems then your hatred is misplaced. It seems that you've picked a fight, but lacking any enemy you've resorted to beating yourself.
If you want a non-Windows solution then you'll probably have find a way to come up with one yourself. I understand that's how open-source got started in the first place.
You never really know how close to the edge you can go until you fall off.
It appears to be a political issue for him as well as he mentions that he feel more free when using GNU/Linux.
And if you yourself has something against this sort of politics then perhaps you aren't seeing the big picture?
This fellow was obviously not looking forward to hacking up his own solution, so obviously the easiest course of action for him would be to swallow his pride and use another OS.
Actually, I guess I just wrote the analogy because it was fun to write. Nevermind.
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Get a Mac and thumb your nose at the world. The Hebrew support is excellent. I would never give mine up in a million years, it's the only thing that's not completely brain-dead when it comes to non-Roman languages. Linux/BSD just can't hold a candle to the Mac's multilingual support.
Unless he installs Windows. It's all he can do NOW to rectify his CURRENT situation.
It boils down to what you NEED. Computers are nothing more than tools that do a job.
...
Don't let your OS choice be a political issue, it a matter of what you need your computer to do. If only Windows fits that need, then use it.
If utility disqualifies an issue from being considered in a political context, what issues are left that should be political?
For most people in this world, convenience and comfort are the highest values they aspire to. Should that be true for everyone?
A very few people look at a company like Microsoft and see a pattern of behavior that includes bullying business partners, anticompetitive practices and strategic undermining of standards processes for their own private gain. Opinions may differ on specific issues, but supposing that someone pretty much agrees with that characterization of Microsoft, what do you think he should do about it?
What is the point of having values and principles if they are utterly subjuated to immediate utility?
Most of us make some compromises to get along in a Microsoft dominated world. For that reason, I don't feel I can castigate people who choose to live within the paternalistic embrace of Microsoft. However this attitude that it is somehow quixotic or even a bit perverted to want to know about alternatives I do not understand. This is the value proposition that Microsoft offers: We will set the (defacto) standards, so you'll never have to think about alternatives again.
What's so bad about somebody who wants to opt out of this proposition?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I haven't tried the Hebrew Language Kit for MacOS personally, but I have coworkers who have used the Chinese Language Kit and been happy. Best page I could find about Hebrew Language Kit is on the Apple Japan site (don't know why it's not on Apple.com).
That may be true for Hebrew. In 1998, Microsoft refused to translate Windows into Icelandic, even when the Icelandic government offered to pay. They only relented after a lot of bad publicity and threats of legislation from the Icelandic government.
Icelandic is a language with a quarter of a million speakers and a national government on its side. If they have difficulty negotiating with Microsoft, then what hope is there for the 90% of languages with less speakers and no government support?
Sorry to argue with your point, which you may have only meant to apply to Hebrew, but this is one place where I think non-free software can be really bad. Even if companies offer some support for a language in one version of a product, there's no guarantee that they'll continue supporting that language in future. Minority language speakers are left in a state of precarious dependence. On the other hand, free software can offer the chance to have sustainable support for a language, as long as there's a single fluent speaker willing to put in the time.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Bullshit. It's about Microsoft having created a proprietory Hebrew character set (windows 1255) when there were already open standards available (iso-8859-8). One reason he can't read Hebrew text with Netscape is because everyone is using the Windows character set, and not unicode or iso-8859-8.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
I don't think that it's OS/2. Apparently this person is browsing using Netscape and AOLTimeWarnerNetscapeCompuserveWorldDominationEven WorseThanMicrosoft doesn't seem to have an OS/2 version, and I can't even find one on their ftp server going back to v3. The list of possible OS's is here. Many of the listed operating systems can be eliminated since they don't run on PC hardware that seems to leave Linux, SCO and BSD that will run on PC class hardware but it couldn't be them since they are clearly unix variants. The other possible systems to run on PC hardware would be QNX (no Netscape and pretty Unixish) and BeOS (no Netscape and probably could be called a Unix variant [it is POSTIX compliant]) so these don't seem to likely. Basically, I'd say that this whole question reeks of troll. We've been had.
_____________
I don't want free as in beer. I just want free beer.
If you are talking about a Desktop OS, why not use Windows (you can always duel boot).
If you are talking about servers, who cares what language its in. WebServers don't care, and almost all of the major app servers handle locales perfectly fine.
Someone you trust is one of us.
Ya, bonehead that I am, I didn't do much research, as most of what I do/read/write is in english or hebrew with english letters (ba'atzlecha!).
I'll give those links a thorough reading before I comment again.
Thanks.
rJames.org - illustration
switch abck to Linux.
Localization in Linux is improving, but how close is total Linux support for languages like Japanese and Hebrew that are difficult to fit into your normal, left-to-right, single byte character infrastructure?
So why the Linux adjenda? The origianl author went out of his/her way to NOT mention Linux.
FreeBSD's ports collection supports 400+ Japanese localizations, 70+ Chinese, 20+ Russian, 9+ Vietamese, 2 French and 2 Hebrew. There is a reason for $10 million in investments from Japan in FreeBSD in the past few months. Combined with the 15-20% of the Open Source OS market FreeBSD has, FreeBSD is making fine progress in internationalization, thank you very much.
The people who *WRITE* code need to think a far bigger picture than the closed-world Linux only mind-think of Cliff and dvk. Show that you are a 'think big' kinda coder. Read up on unicode, usage of I18N/L18N or even the physically impaired. Such is not done by most code authors.
WinterKnight, the computer is a tool for communication. So you have a choice: Use the tools you have, *OR* (re)write tools to do what you want to do. Contact Mozilla, and see who has expressed an interest in making hooks for hebrew. Pick the tools you need, then make ports happen to unicode. And, try to get authors of code to design for Unicode/physically hampered and to write portable software. Having a 2nd machine and using VNC so you have one display, a switchbox to the 2nd machine (one display, one keyboard), or using a product like VMware and running Windows as a virtual machine are other options besides multiboot. These solutions avoid the time multibooting takes.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
Here are two pieces of solace for you. 1. Help is comming, and you can be part of it. I can't imagine no one else has thought of this and is working on it. 2. Your English looks good.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
He should help GNOME, Mozzilla, and Star Office if he has the time. The more people who do this, the sooner no one has to put up with this junk again. Propriatary formats are dumb. Take two doses of Free Software and call me in the morning.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Evan - needs to hit preview before submitting
I'm probably wrong, but doesn't windows support Basque? Come to think of it, what kind of special needs are there for an OS to support Basque?
I am beginnig to think that they are the same thing. Or at least inseparable. Non-orthagonal. Not being flip.
1. See Lessig's arguments in "Code". Code is Architecture is Law. Making of law *is* political.
2. You wouldn't argue (I hope) that choosing a country to live in is a political descision. Why should choosing an OS to live in be apolitical? Separation of the two is like saying The country one chooses to live in should be solely on the tax rate.
3. I feel certain one could construct a hybrid verbal/math proof of non-orthaganality, but I've forgotten too much linear algebra. I see a matrix with a diagonal of "1"s and everything goes blank.
Yes, he's suggesting that poor soul to move in order to avoid using Windows.
Get a life!!!
Actually, there's a page on OS/2 Netscape that mentions various options, one of which, turned on with user_pref("browser.bidi.bidi_enabled", true), allows it to view Arabic and Hebrew pages even if you're not on an Arabic or Hebrew OS/2 system, if I understand it correctly. For that matter, there's a version (not the latest, alas) of StarOffice for OS/2--can it import some of those other proprietary-format files people foist on him?
Sorry, but I'm a linguist... I can't resist questions about Basque. Basque is spoken in the Basque country, an area which coincides with northern Spain and southern France. The political relationship between Basques and the French and Spanish government is tense, and there is sometimes violence. You can read about it at this little page, which also has an introduction to the language. As for the writing system, Basque doesn't use any non-ASCII characters at all. But there's not a whole lot of Basque editions of O'Reilley books. Heh. Ten points if you send me an email and you know what 'ergative' means hee. (Basque is ergative.)
fieldmethods.net: nlp and stuff like that
No, you don't have only one choice. You have at least three choices: do nothing and continue complaining about the lack of alternatives, switch to Microsoft, or help to develop a non-MS alternative. Remember that if nobody had decided that working on *BSD/Linux/whatever was worthwhile because Microsoft had the market locked up, those potential alternative wouldn't exist. And I'm willing to bet that WinterKnight isn't the only Hebrew speaker in the world who wants a non-MS alternative, so there are going to be other people to help develop Hebrew support for other Operating Systems.
Why not work to develop a better tool instead? The only way there will ever be an alternative to unpleasant choices is if somebody stands up and develops one. If you want Basque support, develop some. People have bothered to develop Esperanto support, so it should certainly be possible to do the same for an "easy" language like Basque.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
You need to have the backingstore option switched on in X. It tells you how in the FAQ.
All what you are talking about is because most of the people is taking MS products as the de facto standard when there should be something else. .xls and belongs to MS. We must wait until the situation is unstable enough and people realises that MS is setting too many of the important standards themselves. .doc or .xls, it is difficult to evolve to a non proprietary standard.
I am saying that there should be standarization in things like spreadsheet files, formatted text documents, and all that is related to computing so as everyone can talk to each other.
But this is impossible to enforce because of the monopolistic situation in which MS stands: if there was an standard set on spreadsheet files, maybe Linux would use it but no way MS would do the same, simply because the de facto standard is already
I go for standards set by specific bodies formed by people comming from different directions: it proved to work in JPEG or in MPEG, and fortunatelly we can share pictures via email, no matter who is on the other end. But once an standard is set, like in the case of
I live in a country that's completely under Microsoft domination...
Especialy when most e-mail from people arrive as a MS-Word attachments, or they use Excel for making even a silly, simple list of items. Its also hard when 90% of the web sites from that local country are 'designed for IE5+ and above'.
Sounds a hell of a lot like the US. Are you sure you aren't from Israel, Ohio?
Seriously, though. I see your concern. You either have to eat it and dual boot, or use virtual machines.
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Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
That's what I do. (Actually, it's more like Windows 98 at school, Linux/Windows 2000/FreeBSD/Texas Instruments 99-4A/whatever I can get my mitts on at home. :) )
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
The hebrew web is populated with hebrew only sites, or hebrew sites that have english counterparts, but all the latest info is on the hebrew side.
www.walla.co.il
www.tapuz.co.il
www.globes.co.il
www.haaretz.co.il
www.bezeq.co.il
www.yp.co.il
Hebrew is essential for web browsing for local financial news in israel as well as current events (CNN and BBC get the news wrong a suprisingly high number of times!)
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
hebrew support in MacOSX is ready and will be released March 24th.
The MS Office suite for OsX is scheduled for summer release.
MS Office will, by virtue of its Mac app status using the new implementation of WorldScript, work with Hebrew in right-to-left format and font.
On March 24th, my PowerMac will run OsX in Hebrew, alongside my KDE2 in Hebrew, alongside my Os/2 in hebrew.
There's more than one answer to this question besides Mac.
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
MSIE 5.5 has four different Hebrew fonts at its aid.
Hebrew ISO Visual
Hebrew ISO Logical
Hebrew Dos
Hebrew Windows
If you don't have MSIE auto select the best encoding, then you have to manually pick whichever choice will display Hebrew in the correct word and letter order. You also have the option to display the page as right to left instead of left to right, and this too will flip the letter and word order as it shifts the vertical scroll bar to the other side of the
screen.
This is NOT what I'd call a clean solution.
Hebrew text entry is only valid in IE because they did manage to set the default proportional font and fixed-width font correctly. With minimal adjustment, this can be done in any browser.
(My in-laws seem to favor Netscape.)
In Konqueror, on my Mandrake 7.2 system using defaults in the install (okay, it was quick and dirty), the ISO 8859-8 setting works perfectly. I selected it and like magic, the page was instantly readable.
As you say, bidi support is due to Localized Windows, not IE. IE handles Hebrew text input only because the OS does. Netscape (non-localized)
supports this just fine.
I really need to try my mandrake install again, to see how far along they are in localizing the whole distribution. I normally shy away from being distribution specific in my comments, but Mandrake and TurboLinux seem to be among the farthest along in terms of Internationalization.
(TurboLinux does well with Chinese and other Eastern Languages.)
I highly recommend that you make contact with the Israeli LUGs. They have meetings in Tel-Aviv, Haifa, and Jerusalem. (Install party in Jerusalem coming up!) www.iglu.org.il
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
First off, I just noticed how similar most /.ers arguments in favor of Mp3 sharing resembles the Israeli attitude regarding warez.
"I'll buy it after I've tried it and liked it"
What I remember most from the globes.co.il news item where M$ threatened to stop localization for the Hebrew market was their comment that A) they weren't making any money from it since development cost more than their sales were generating, and B) they expected this sort of behaviour from developing nations that were only beginning to become technologically aware, but that in a country that was technologically ahead as Israel, this was simply unacceptable.
My own take was, some Israelis have no shame, think the software market is the Shuk, and if they want to buy at a lesser price at the Bus Station, they will. Again, I expect that if Linux distributions become comparably simple to set up in Hebrew and are well known for it, Israelis may switch to Linux just so that they don't have to worry about software audits.
Other people that use linux are the small percentage of folks that work with UNIX in the army. I set up a RedHat 6.2 box for just such a soldier.
I know most businesses that use warez probably don't concern themselves much with the legality of their software, but in the public school I worked at in Tel-Aviv (Beit Sefer Ayalon, Rehov Emek HaBracha, say hi for me!) they were continually sweating the notion that some authority, from the schools, or from the company that sold them the Gateway boxen I'm not sure, would come and audit their software licenses and they'd be in big trouble.
That's all I know.
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
always did when I lived there ;)
*Why* did I emmigrate? Mmmm. I dont know, but I know why I'm not going back.
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Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor - Ovidius
cute sweet girl... long term prospects
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Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor - Ovidius
He's not running a UNIX system so it won't do him any good.
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Garett
One of the main reasons I have used Mac for years is that its Japanese support kicks butt. I used to be a freelance Japanese translator and could not have done it without my crashing all the time, slow, expensive - but multilingual - Mac.
sulli
RTFJ.
VMWare does have a lot of excellent uses. This, however, is not one of them.
Isn't this the essence of a Monopoly situation?
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This guy says he's N-O-T running a unix variant.. which means linux as well. So stop giving him linux only solutions. On the other hand, it would have helped if he told us what OS he was using, so we COULD give him ideas for that OS.
But...
If you're not running Linux, you should be able to build Wine on your platform. As far as I know, Wine will properly do international fonts & formatting if the copy of Windows installed on the box is configured properly.
Monopolies are "simply market economics". The fact that there exist market conditions that create a very high barrier to entry and that effectively exclude other players means that Microsoft has a monopoly.
From an economic point of view, it makes no difference whether Microsoft actively pursued that market position or just accidentally fell into it. That difference is only interesting from a US legal point of view, and even in the US, even if a monopoly position wasn't pursued deliberately, the company or industry in question can still be subjected to government regulation. Their intent and actions merely have to do whether they are legally guilty of wrongdoing.
Of course, in the Microsoft case, I'd argue that they are somewhere in between: their disregard for standards processes, industry standards, and documentation turned out to not only cut their costs but also keep others out of their market. So, I think they are actually responsible for their position. Initially, their actions may not have been deliberate, but I think their later company internal communications show that they actively pursued this strategy as a business strategy (they merely thought that there wasn't anything wrong with it).
Netscape has trouble with your stuff
Your OS and the software you use doesn't generally have the level of language/localization support you need
You're bombarded with an overwhelming majority of MS Word and Excel documents
The web sites you're talking about are optimized for IE.
I'd suggest knocking off the dogmatic adherence to tools that aren't doing the job for you and switch to something that works. Who cares if it's Microsoft? Blasphemy! It's just software, not religion.
This isn't to advocate the use of Microsoft products for every task, across the board. But my philosophy has always been one of using the right tool for the job. That's why I use Oracle as my database, Apache/Linux for my web server, and IE as my browser. If your assortment of Linux, Netscape and various other non-Microsoft software isn't meeting your needs, then you're foolish to boycott the software that does meet them simply out of spite.
blah.
omega_rob
Mac's actually were much more popular than PC's in Arabia because they supported Arabic letters long before PC's did. That's changed nowadays since Windows has been Arabized.
I assume if they support Arabic, a right to left language, they would also support Hebrew, or at least it wouldn't be difficult to get working.
Living like this is very hard, and I keep asking myself if maybe I should just give up and be 'one of the crowd'?"
You act like there is some glorious advantage to using a non-Windows OS for reading e-mail and viewing web pages. There is not. If you told me that you were running an ISP, I would caution you against a Windows solution, but for desktop use, BeOS, Linux, BSD, and other alternative operating systems are a pain.
The reason that so many people have standardized on IE, Outlook, and Word is because they are the best in class. I have used Opera 5, Netscape 6, Mozilla, and a handful of other alternative browsers and, frankly, they just don't work as well. Same thing with word processors. Word is the standard because it is the best. StarOffice, Software602, and others are good efforts, but are not up to the quality of Word. I'm not an apologist for Microsoft. I use Windows and curse it on a daily basis. I just haven't found anything better as a desktop OS (and I've tried Solaris 7, BeOS 4.5 and 5, Linux, and FreeBSD).
while I have no clue about Linux in Hebrew, I can say, "Stand fast, oh chosen one. For the Lord will deliver you from the evil MS! You are his chosen people and he will not lead you astray. Little Billy is no match for the Lord. He knows it. Your Saviour Linux is coming in due time. Don't become one of the crowd with the MS mark of the beast on your forehead! Be strong and keep the UNIX faith!!
2)Install Microsoft.
3)Write your own software to do the job you want.
What else is there to say? Nothing. You have to choose between hardship and your principles. Choose wisely.
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
--Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The
Luckily for people outside the US, alot of them speak 2+ languages. If one of them is "American" then they are in luck because any OS will have a US option for language. If a person is using a OS that does no fully support their native tongue, the only immediate work arounds are changing OSes to one which does or if a person does speak another language look into support for that language on your current OS.
"It's better to be a pirate then join the Navy"
Let me explain you the way hebrew works on the web.
,maybe other browsers.
There are four standards, but only two that matters.
Hebrew Logical & Hebrew Visual
One of them is supported by Netscape, and
This involve writing things *backward*, it doesn't handle line breaks well, and basically a PITA to do.
And there is IE way, in which you write in Hebrew just like you write in english, and it display everything correctly.
Netscape's way result in *bad* looking sites, more often than not.
IE's way works.
To be fair, AFAIK, NS6 (and probably Mozilla) support the IE's way.
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Two witches watched two watches.
Which witch watched which watch?
Some of you guys take your little anti-microsoft crusade (and yourselves) a little too seriously.
I've found that the same people that make statements like this are also the people make flip remarks such as "Well don't buy their products then" when someone complains about Microsoft's unethical business tactics.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
You say you are using a non-Unix variant PC operating system; presumably, this would mean either OS/2 or BeOS. OS/2 comes with Boot Manager, which, while it would require an FDISK to install (and then consumes a primary partition), does an excellent job of switching you from Warp to Win9x/NT (Win2k has issues) and back. I believe BeOS came with Partition Magic and maybe System Commander to enable the same functionality. Also, if you are using Warp, check with the folks at Serenity Systems to see what they have planned for DBCS BiDi support in eCommStation (their successor to OS/2). It's a full upgrade to eCS, but if you're sticking with OS/2, it's definitely worth looking into.
Save Maine's economy: write stuff down. All comments are exclusively my own, not my employer.
You have a choice to make:
Which option would you choose?
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They convert and they have a link collection to similar services: iconv.com.
If you're doing it just out of spite, you probably are going to need to buck up and deal with it. If you can't communicate with the rest of the country/world, then you're oinly doing yourself a disservice.
In this case, it isn't about Microsoft being a monopoly. It's about Microsoft having added value for YOUR country, and having addressed a market that no one else cares about. That said, you might as well make the jump. You're getting nowhere by denying yourself the ability to communicate electronically with the rest of your country.
PS: I know this will get mod'ed down as it's Pro-Microsoft, but before you pull the trigger, re-read the post. He has NO alternatives.
This has nothing to do with monopoly. It's simply market economics. You write code for the markets with the most money. It's not a matter of convincing others that it's worth the time and effort to locallize.
Still, this doesn't do anything to solve this particular person's problem at this time.
Rader
Are you familiar with catdoc and xls2csv? I don't know how well they cope with text that is non-(8859-1) and non-unicode, though. As to the proprietory character set thing, the answer in the long run is unicode, but meanwhile mozilla 0.7 claims to have some Hebrew support.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
So WHY are most of the threads "blah blah blah Linux blah blah" ? If it's a Non-UNIX variant and it's not M$, that leaves QNX, Be, OS/2 and maybe one or two others. So you can stop tootling the Linux horn for the moment.
My default suggestion would be "buy a Mac", since it's not Windows, has decent Hebrew support and M$ codes for the OS. Assuming you don't have that option, then dual booting between whatever it is you're using and Winblows would be about the only acceptable solution, as the majority of the software in question [Office], is not being ported to linux.
Or, you could move. I wouldn't suggest the USA- with the present anal-retentiveness of the body politic going bughouse, I've been contemplating greener pastures myself. Considering my own choice of platforms, this definitely leaves Israel off the list.
The fact is, if noone else has done enough, you only have one choice. Why is it so bad? At least you /have/ a choice at all.
I was raised speaking basque, and NO operating systems support my language. SO I have been forced to learn English. But the benefits far outweigh the penalties. I say quit crying and use the best tool for the job. Even if it's the only tool. Even if it's MS.
Then when Linux has superb Hebrew support and Star Office works flawlessly with it, you just have more options.
Evan - needs to hit preview before submitting
Well, if I'm not mistaken, you can always run Windows2000 within Linux. Sure, you need some heafty hardware to take care of it, but it can be done...
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Feminism is the wild notion that women are human beings.
Emigrate.
Makes me laugh... in a predictable wave of Linux-zealotry, some well meaning people forgot that the person is NOT running Linux. So suggestions like Pango and the like, while informative, aren't very helpful. Remember: There are OTHER operating systems that are alternatives to Windows that aren't Linux.
It boils down to what you NEED. Computers are nothing more than tools that do a job. If you current computer does everything that you bought it for, then use it. If it doesn't, maybe you should use a different OS until your current OS supports the features that fit YOUR NEEDS. Personally, I've been using Macs since about 92. I have NEVER thought to myself, "Crap, I need to use Windows to do this" MacOS fits my needs. It may or may not fit yours.
Don't let your OS choice be a political issue, it a matter of what you need your computer to do. If only Windows fits that need, then use it.
Burn Hollywood Burn
Don't let your OS choice be a political issue, it a matter of what you need your computer to do. If only Windows fits that need, then use it.
This is one thing that always irritates me on /. You have a bunch of people saying that you should just choose the product that works best, regardless of who makes it. Then you have a bunch of people saying that if you don't like the way a certain corporation does business, don't buy their products. These two views are mutually exclusive, yet I hear them both uttered by the same people fairly often.
What it comes down to is that the choice of OS or any other product can very well be based on concerns other than whether the product does what you need it to do. We can't just surrender our beliefs and conscience over to unfettered capitalism and support corporations with our money regardless of how they do business or the kinds of practices they engage in. To ignore immoral acts by a corporation when they come to light and support that corporation with your money is to offer tacit support for their actions. Many people can't stomach such a thing. Too bad there aren't more people like that.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
The Macintosh has arguably even better support for top-down or right-to-left foreign alphabets than Windows. Also, you can run the MS applications (Word and whatnot, including IE) on it.
And if you would like to have the power of UNIX, OS X will enable you to run things the proper *nix way. True, you'll have to wait maybe 6 months until Hebrew support is finished, and of course that you'll have to buy new hardware, but by that time you may find that you're in the market for a new machine anyway.
In a relatively short time, there will be a BSD based OS with applications relevant to the documents you are trying to process, and support for Hebrew.
"Perfect numbers like perfect men are rare." -Descartes
Face facts: Microsoft has chosen to fully support the Hebrew language. Other OS and applications companies have not. Microsoft wins this round, fair and square: you can hardly decry them for being open-minded enough to realize that a global OS/global application needs to support global languages.
There's no end to the bad things that can be said about Microsoft.
Poor internationalization isn't one of them.
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[taken from that site]
Version 2.0 of KDE featured several improvements in the field of Hebrew support in its interface. Among these improvements:
-henrik
When some numb-nut sends me a document in Word or Powerpoint of whatever and my open software won't open it I just send it up to http://createpdf.adobe.com and they mail back a nice PDF of it.
They let you do three documents as a trial, then its $10/mo or $100/year.
They handle many of the popular but proprietary formats.
And for goodness sake, stop reading slashdot and get out and VOTE!
or try www.freeviewer.com
Check out the Pango project over on the gnome web pages. They apparently plan to incorporate support for all those funky languages that go up and down, right and left, diagonally, or however.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I lived in Tel-Aviv for two years, and still support my in-laws computer there.
I know *exactly* what you're going through.
If you're looking at linux as an alternative, GTK2 is going to have right-to-left support, and KDE2 has it.
Web browsing is perfect at handling msIE html and their version of Hebrew, if you use Konqueror.
I believe Kword works for editing the Hebrew, but I haven't tried it recently enough to remeber how well it does right to left text entry.
Have you gotten in touch with the Linux User Groups in Israel? You have two: Haifux and IGLU.
go to www.iglu.org.il and join the e-groups list. They have lectures now and again, given in Hebrew, both at Technion and Tel-Aviv University.
As for the email attachments, half the time Outlook Express in Hebrew in windows on my machine can't read emails generated by OE on another machine.
My machines are running:
win98 Hebrew-enabled,
Mandrake 7.2 (KDE2 has the hebrew fonts already in it... hebrew is an install option for a completely localized system)
and MacOsX public beta. the full release will have hebrew as an option for localization.
My wife's laptop runs win98 localized hebrew. someday when I get the energy, I'll make her an x-client and spawn the display of my kde2 to her machine.
I've always been surprised that Linux hasn't taken off wildly in Israel-- I expect that when right-to-left wordprocessing and presentation composing is complete, that people will jump to linux in Israel, because of its free nature.
(Many Israelis 'warez' MS products, so much so that last year Microsoft threatened to stop localizing for Hebrew languages unless the piracy diminished. I remember reading that news item at www.globes.co.il)
You CAN do everything you want to do, in Hebrew, without MS.
b'hatzlecha!
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
Multilingual support. Mac OS is world-ready. Input, display, edit and print a variety of Latin-based languages in addition to Arabic, Chinese, Hebrew, Indian, Japanese and more.
Of course, using Apple doesn't exactly free you from MS documentation...
sulli
RTFJ.
- Mozilla with some Hebrew extensions.
- Somethinng from the IGLU FAQ, with links on places to find Hebrew fonts and keyboard support.
- Some common Linux applications with Hebrew support.
Hope that helps! As far as the Word® documents and Excel® spreadsheets, I would ask your friends and co-workers to convert them to another format before sending them to you, or run Wine and emulate Office2000 (which works fairly well). That's what I do (although I only need to contend with English and German)--
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I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy