Slashdot Mirror
Sean In The Middle
Last week, Sean Sheeley -- computer geek, gamer, and high-school junior in the McKinney Independent School District north of Dallas -- was confronted by a group of students in one of his classes. They'd been tormenting Sheeley for much of the school year, he says. He'd been jabbed, ridiculed, baited, had disks stoken from his computer.
Sheely's father Patrick, a graphic designer, says the incident unfolded this way: one of the kids in his class came up to Sean while others were taunting him and said aloud with others present, "One of these days, he's going to bring a gun to school and shoot us."
Patrick Sheeley, a Slashdot regular, says that "my son, being a little sarcastic, took out a small case that he carries his keys in and pretended to be loading a gun. The same student then said, 'Look, he's loading his gun.'
At some point, says Patrick, one of the other students joined in with some additional comments, further upsetting Sean, who then responded:
"If this had been a real gun,you'd be dead now." One of the kids turned him in.
Sean was called into the principal's office where he got suspended for three days and sent home. School officials then notified his parents that Sean was being removed from the high school and sent to an alternative school for kids with learning and other problems. He was no longer fit for mainstream education, the school had decided.
The decision was "unappealable" to school administrators, Patrick was told. He could appeal to the school district, but not until May, when the school year was virtually over. None of the other students involved have been disciplined, nor, to the Sheeleys' knowledge, even questioned. Patrick says officials told him that the school has a statement from a single student who overheard the remark and reported it.
Sean says that he'd like to forget the whole day, but here's what he remembers:
"There was much of the usual taunting, mocking my intelligence, mocking things I hold interest in, etc. Then one of them said, 'You know, one of these days he's going to bring a gun to school and kill us all.' And that is, so to speak, what knocked over the first domino. I also remember one of them trying to take the computer disks out of my backpack... the same person who went through my backpack accused me of being gay."
Sean said he'd prefer the high school to an alternative school. Othwerwise, he says, "why would I want to go back to a school that lies, breaks state laws, and gets rid of bright students who finally snap, merely to 'make the school feel safer?' All the school is doing is satisfying a few parents' false sense of insecurity, brought on by the intense media attention to the recent school shootings, by giving them a false sense of security, at the expense of students like myself. The ONLY reason I'd want to go back is to see my few friends again, and I can keep in contact with them without going to school."
Sean's comment was foolish, his father says, especially in the post-Columbine environment where candid speech about schools is dangerous. And he isn't averse to some milder form of punishment.
I wonder if Sean deserves anything more than a useful speech on sensible responses to morons. Perhaps he should be called into an office and told that one of an individual's noblest callings is to make fools reveal themselves. There appear to be mitigating circumstances, to say the least, and Sean was defending himself, reflexively and verbally, if not wisely. Patrick is surprised by the profoundly anti-democratic, Banana Republic policies that govern public schools in America, where there is no Constitution, protected speech, or due process for citizens under 18. Thousands of kids like Sean won't be the least bit surprised.
In fact, school officials across the country may be chasing the wrong kids out of school. The U.S. Center for Disease Control (CDC) reports that more than 2,000 school age children 19 or younger take their lives each year in the United States, many citing depression, social cruelty and bullying and other forms of harassment. That means that many more kids harm themselves as the result of social cruelty than harm other kids.
"I just don't know what to do," says Patrick, who can't afford a lawyer, and who wants to protect his kid. Sheeley is aware that this kind of record could have implications for Sean down the line. "...I would appreciate any suggestions as to what recourse we may have, or where we might find some help."
In the meantime, he and his wife have pulled Sean out of the district rather than submit to his being shunted to an altenative school. The Sheeleys are home-schooling him, an increasingly popular alternative for individualistic kids facing creative suffociation or social isolation and persecution in larger schools. "What's the lesson for him?" his father asks. "This wasn't a fair process. The kids who provoked him were not disciplined equally, or at all. It could have been me," Patrick says, of the incident. "I felt the same way when I was in school. I probably even said the same thing." It could have been lot of people.
Even though administrators have deemed Sean too dangerous to stay in high school -- perhaps he triggered one of their dangerous-kid-profiles -- the junior has never been in trouble of any sort, his father says, inside or out of school: never been arrested, disciplined, suspended, or even involved in a fight.
I called the school district to ask if there was any comment. A secretary in the administrators' office asked me if I was kidding. "No," she said. We don't have any. And what is a Slashdot?"
Sean provides a nearly classic example of kids in the middle of an increasingly insane social situation. We know this story. Sean and his father are both self-professed computer geeks. Sean has a few friends who are into computers and gaming, and who generally feel isolated and excluded at school. Sean finds many of his classes boring, although he has met academic requirements, and spends most of his time in his creative other life, building computers, programming, networking, writing games, especially RPG's.
His experience shows that a culture of harassment remains tolerated in many educational institutions; where kids can be taunted and bullied at will, sometimes into retaliatory statements or actions.
Patrick Sheeley has some decisions to make and could use some help. Should he try to get Sean back into school or walk away? Should he take legal action to force due process? (Many Slashdot community members are familiar with home schooling, judging from my e-mail). He would appreciate hearing from lawyers with expertise in cases like this. He's contacted the ACLU, but isn't sure whether it can or will represent Sean. He knows that irrational policies and the post-Columbine hysteria are all closing in on his kid, and he wants to do something about it.
NEW Numbers: Superintendants office: 469-742-4070 Safety Director: 469-742-4096 Special Populations(Ed):469-742-4081 Old Numbers (Slashdotted?) McKinney I.S.D. 1 Duvall St McKinney, TX 75069 Phone: 972-569-6400 Fax: 972-562-8751 P.S. They blocked slashdot as a referral link. Use Open in new window to get there: (right click)
http://www.mckinneyisd.net/
I currently am employed by an elementary school (happens to be my alma mater) and witness first hand the cruelty that young people can express towards those who are "different". When I was in high school (5+ years ago, eg. Pre-Columbine), I came close to snapping myself many times, getting into a (very minor) skirmish or two, even. I didn't make things easy on myself, either. I would often put down "less intelligent" students answers and would (unintentionally) egg them on by giving them the reactions they wanted to get out of me. I did have friends, and I never felt that the "whole" school was out to get me, but I consider myself lucky for that. A former student of my high school, a few years younger than me, recently killed himself because of the torture he had undergone in high school. He never managed to recover.
It is time to educate the educators. School officials and teachers need to learn to recognize the signs of bullying and "torture", and to pro-actively prevent it. Starting at the Kindergarten levels, students need not only to be encouraged to be respectful of diversity, but to appreciate it as well. If (for example) schools can pass on to students that a geek and a jock working together could accomplish much more than either could alone, then perhaps the boiling-point temperature that we've recently hit in America's schools could be cooled somewhat.
The District's webpage: http://www.mckinneyisd.net/ Dr.David Anthony danthony@mckinneyisd.net Superintendent 469-742-4070 Ted Moore tlmoore@mckinneyisd.net Assistant Superintendent Campus Services 469-742-4041 Dennis Muizers dmuizers@mckinneyisd.net Director of Secondary Education 469-742-4093
GenX, or the "13th generation" as the authors put it, are underprotected and undervalued as children, grow up as a nomad generation. They start as free agents, are pragmatic and independent, and must be increasingly tough and resolute as they age in a time of crisis.
"Millenials", of which Sean is one of the first examples, are increasingly protected as children. They come into young adulthood and drive the society into crisis by challenging the crusades of their elders.
(The authors believe that this changing of generations and generational attitudes leads to an inevitable crisis cycle. Past crises in US society have included the revolution, the civil war, and the depression/WW2.) Each turning of the generations leads to predictable approaches, and the fourth turning is the crisis cycle. It begins in 2005. Be prepared.)
Sean's ouster, then, is a predictable overreaction from baby boomers during a period when individualism is stregthened and institutions are increasingly weakened.
Anyway, can't recommend the book more highly.
Let's see now, is the victim responsible if s/he is physically abused, not just mentally abused? I just want to make sure I get your approach right.
In fact, shouldn't we honor the tormentors for giving the abused a chance to succeed? I mean, if it worked for you, obviously it'll work for everyone, right? (I know those fourth graders can be merciless, I don't know how you survived.)
And the damned uncaring father, co-dependently giving the son an opportunity to fail by retracting him from the environment where he would be the most challenged. What kind of father is that? He should have just told the kid to buck up and stop whining. Nobody likes those whiners! Why, they're some of the least popular people in school.
And that's important, because one measure of success is how popular you are in high school.
I could go on, but that would put me in line for being moderated down as flamebait. But wait, if that happens, it'll be my fault, and the resulting lesson will make me a better person. OK, moderators, do your worst! I refuse to accept your negative opinion of my message!
I see, aggressive stereotyping and stigmatizing other children is expected and is entirely the fault of the victim.
You can not punish someone for not liking someone else.
I see, brutally tormenting people you don't like is expected and acceptable.
The fact remains that this innocent child threatened the lives of others.
Bullshit, he threatened no-one. Compared to the actions of his tormentors, his action was probably the least threatening.
His biggest fault was taking his oppressor's stereotyping and using it against them. He wasn't violent, nor did he use violence. He used suggestion and a simple statement.
Your hypocrisy, sir, is utter. Months and months of physical and verbal abuse by tormentors is supposed to be a learning experience. One single statement in reaction, and you call it threatening and unjustified. If the tormentors were to take your advice, they would not go snivelling off, reporting it to authorities. Liking D&D expected to result in abuse? How about after months and months of abuse you might expect a little threatening aside! You should be telling your fuckup Texan teen circle-jerk buddies that if they can dish it out, they had better fuckin' take it like men, no whining to the principal. Hey, it's just commen sense, right?
Come on. I doubt a typical day went like:
Dad: So Sean, how was your day at school?
Sean: Well, I got bullied and it was really humiliating. I'm thinking about threatening violence tomorrow.
Dad: That's nice. Now go back upstairs and play everquest!
Something tells me the dad had a rude awakening that life wasn't jim-dandy for his son when all of this happened. Kids stick to vague comments like 'school sucked today' and 'just some guys at school being annoying' or something. Any parent who isn't looking won't see that his son is getting shit on with impunity.
As always, if you need to waste your time, I suggest http://news.getschooled.com/.
What did you eat today? http://www.atetoday.com/
Exactly. And that's the problem. If you live in your own little fantasy world until you're 18, how do you expect to know how to deal with bosses, coworkers, etc. who may be jerks, idiots, or egomanaics?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I wish I'd gotten in on this topic sooner but it's been a wild day.
Kids will be kids. There will be picking. There will be discipline problems. In the past, discipline was meaded out with a paddle. I strongly favor a return to corporal punishment. It works better for most miscreants than anything else. Throwing kids out of school or charging them with felonies is counterproductive.
As for the picking, if a kid is getting picked on he needs to be trained how to fight effectively. He must be able to handle bullies. Any kids identified as being picked on should be given training in boxing, wrestling, karate, jujitsu, judo or other martial arts. Strength training is also likely to be of benefit. This will empower the one being picked on to defend themselves. Bullies will find an easier mark. The school system should provide such kids with stipends.
Do I have a vested interest in this? You bet. I teach kids like this all the time.
Will training kids in self defense and returning to corporal punishment prevent Columbines from happening? Probably. Growing up today ain't no easier or harder than it was then. Kids probably had better access to guns 30 years ago. Heck, I had 2 rifles, shotgun and a pistol when I was 13. There's no way I'd have taken them to school. The threshold for a butt whuppin' was real low. Nobody shot up schools then. I carried a pocket knife then. Still do. But any kid with one today gets arrested. If anyone had cut someone else with their pocket knife, they would have gotten 2 whuppins. One right then and there and another at home.
It's like the little old lady with the shopping cart who wheels grocery sacks full of money through the ghetto. Nobody knocks her over because they know retribution will be sure, severe and swift.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
Well, when my mom was in school they got 3 bomb threats in a month. Each was taken seriously, but for the last one they just made all the students stay in the parking lot, and held class (such as they could) outside. they never got anouther bomb threat because it was no longer a way to go home early.
Exactly. I tried making this point last time we had a story like this. It's always your word against at least 3 other people it seems. Guess who ends up winning?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
He calls the freaking secretary, who *CAN'T* say anything to the media because that'd cost her her job
Why doesn't the secretary refer him to someone who CAN say something?
Bullying has been a part of schooling since schools were invented. Hell, read the "Almanzo" book from Little House on the Prairie.
The problem is that kids didn't used to get kicked out of school for responding to bullies. THAT is the issue here.
That's right: claim that he's a gun freak who's gonna kill everyone.
And why the hell should they be allowed to do this kind of crap? They can claim he's a killer, but he can't play along with it?
I'm not trying to excuse the bullies, but want to point out that there are two sides to the story, point out that Sean is not completely free of blame
Like hell you aren't. Kids are in school to learn and shouldn't have to put up with this kind of bullshit from assholes that don't have anything better to do than harrass people who are weaker and/or less popular than themselves. They should expell the little dipshits that like to make life hell for others instead of the kids that have to put up with it because the administrators don't give a flying fuck about it! Yes, Sean is partly to blame, even his father said that, but look at what happened! He gets kicked out of school and the bullies get nothing! If the bullies were being as "clever" as you think and trying to get him kicked out of school, then they should be the ones being kicked out.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I wish everybody at the gun range knew basic gun-safety rules. Because that is definately not the case. When I've gone shooting, I get guns pointed at me, waved past me, all the time, loaded, unloaded, whatever.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
last month, there was an interesting article in Scientific American, about agression. The author states that the current widely held belief that agression is caused by low self esteem is flawed.
He cites his studies that state that agression is more likely caused by people that have too-high self esteem. Baseless self-love, and when that self-love is threatened, they lash out. When applied to the model of the "geek" who's being teased, it makes a lot of sense. There certainly is a rationalization of superiority. These kids, we geeks, believe that we are superior to others, because we are smarter. And when it is proven to us that just being smarter isn't enough, you also have to be stronger, faster, better looking, and more socially adept, (and probably richer), that superiority complex is threatened.
Of course, that goes for the bullies too. When they feel threatened by someone smarter than them, they lash out similarly, to demonstrate that their attributes are superior.
If you think about it, it makes a lot of sense.
The author of this article faults the current system, the way we raise our kids, afraid to criticize or judge too harshly, lest we crush their frail egos and turn them into homocidal maniacs. When in fact, we are building up their egos too much, to the point where they get this 'tude, and then, they are basically ticking time bombs, waiting for a threat to their egos.
Makes ya think.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
...to the district superintendent:
Er, I didn't ask you to discuss the facts regarding any issue. Please be assured that your response will be duly noted in any lawsuits brought as a result of any violence which results from your deliberate decision to ignore my concerns.
Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
No. You've pretty much nailed it on the head.
You did leave out an important translation of the following part:
Which should be translated as: "I will lie at will about the parents who revealed my actions even though those I am lying to have read the article in which the parents did, in fact, indicate they were given information regarding the next level to express their concerns."
One could also add something about the legal liability this guy will be facing if he does end up with a Columbine-like situtation when it is discovered that he ignored warnings that he was recreating a situation very much like the one at Columbine which helped to produce the killings. When one adds this to his slanderous sniping from behind FERPA ("privacy concerns prevent me from telling you why I think this parent is dirty-bad-nasty"), I would not like to be holding his libel-slander-gross-negligence insurance.
Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
I dropped out anyhow, but because of their lies, I waited before getting my GED. I should have taken it immediately. In fact, in hindsight it is clear that I should have done it when I was in junior high!
It sounds to me like Sean should have absolutely NO trouble passing a GED (they're very easy). I'd advise taking that and the SAT or ACT, and applying to colleges and universities. That way he can actually get an education, instead of simply "doing time" in the public school system.
Some people have told me that a GED doesn't look good on one's record. My experience is that if you have good SAT scores, no one cares.
Eric
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education" -- Mark Twain
The more we make the schools like prisons, the more we'll make the students like prisoners. Are you sure you WANT the schools to turn out people with a prisoner mindset?
What students really need are hidden cameras in the schools. If parents of bullies would actually see their little darlings tormenting and harassing they way they do, I can guarantee that some (not all) of the bullies would get a serious butt whipping and would *quickly* change their ways. Parents are so oblivious most of the time to what their kids do in school. The schools themselves are far too impotent to actually be able to do something about, and, when they do act, they act improperly and contrary to what logic would tell any educated person.
Is it an invasion of privacy? Yes, but so are metal detectors, drug tests and searching lockers. Why not have video cameras?
Oh, now I remember, because no one really wants to see how bad some of the TEACHERS in public education are. Of course, I have no way to back this up in fact other than my experiences when I was in junior high and high school.
In lieu of cameras everywhere in schools, intelligent and bright young students who are being bullied should resort to the skills they have... geeky nerd hacker skills... and should go about tape recording and video taping their ordeals with hidden cameras with the bullies. Videotaping has worked wonders for police departments (both to catch crooked cops and to prove that there really are a lot of assholes on the road.)
Something to ponder, at least.
No, I think your question is really good and should be addressed. Without knowing the father, I can only speak speculatively and will make broad generalizations and assumptions that will render my point moot, but I might as well make it anyway...
For anyone that's ever been bullied in school, what do your parents usually say when you report it, "Dear, when I was in the school the kids did the same types of things to me. Just ignore them and they'll go away."
However, what parents fail to realize is that for some reason, kids today are more agressive in class then they ever have been before. While in the past a spat between two classmates might result in a quick and akward fisfight behind the gymnasium, nowadays with a lack of school administration caring, fights are taking place everywhere, with more deadly weapons and voracity.
If you ponder the idealized schools that parents attended "back in the day", behavior problems wre easier to deal with because there was always a group of troublemakers and bullies that could be singled out for punishment. Of course, the victim would still get the, "Just try to ignore them" explanation that parents still give today. However, nowadays I strongly believe that anyone can be a bully. It is almost like a hierachy of abuse exists. The darwinism of it all is really astounding once you realize it, especially if you're living through it. The kids in these Slashdot articles, while certainly at the "top" of the hierachy in terms of grades, intelligence, skills or creativity, are often cast down to the lowest levels of the food chain when it comes to social respect and decency. The point I'm trying to make is that the bullies at the top tend to make their victims bullies themselves until you reach the bottom where those individuals would love to bully everyone above them for lack of having anyone lower to bully themselves.
Is it a brash overgeneralization? Yes.
Is this post a long winded rant? Yes.
Do I think I have a valid point in here someplace? Yes.
This is a weighty issue that is becoming worse and worse. The difficult part about this discussion is that there really is no "right" and "wrong". Both sides are wrong. The bullies are wrong for being abusive and the victims are wrong for not being a little more levelheaded and creative in dealing with bullies... and for not holding their tongues and incriminating themselves. Now, arguments can be made for whom is more "wrong" than whom, but the point is that to most people, it doesn't *matter*. It makes people uncomfortable. When people become uncomfortable about the situation they revert back to the basics they learned about the human condition, especially in their schooling, which is exactly why parents today tell there children as they've done for generations, "Dear, when I was in the school the kids did the same types of things to me. Just ignore them and they'll go away."
(Reposted because Slashdot got confused and decided I was an Anonymous Coward.)
What was the father doing while Sean was being bullied? Did he go to the school then? Did he report the bullying? Did he demand that the bullies (if they actually touched Sean) be charged with assault?
What can the father do? Sure, he can report it to the school. Will the school do anything? Can the school do anything? If no adults saw the incidents, they effectively didn't happen. It becomes a "he hit me" "no I didn't" disagreement, which kid do you believe? Similar for pressing assault charges, without evidence or credible (adult) witnesses, it will never fly. If you try (and fail) to stop the bullies through these methods, you've simply encouraged the bullies to continue their behavior.
Worse, often these victims are being singled out by the system for engaging the "disruptive" behavoir. Not fighting, or threats, but publishing independent student newspapers, complaining about other students behavoir, protesting school attitudes. The only crime is thinking against the system. Soon it becomes clear that the school, the teachers and staff, and in some cases your parents, are a danger to be avoided, not allies to seek out.
I lived through this. I was lucky, my experiences weren't as harsh as many reports I've heard, but it still hurt at the time. There are several teachers and administrators from my high school for whom I still hold grudges against. It's hard to feel that a school will support you when the principal threatens you with lawsuits for printing (with your own money) an independent student newspaper (Hi Robert G.!) It's hard to approach a teacher who threatens fail you if you continue to question the value of their tests (even though you scored excellently on the tests) (Hi Ms D!).
Schools are trying to deal with the perception of increased violence in the simplest, easiest, cheapest manner. Actually solving the problem requires more adults keeping watch and investigations of reports. These take time and money, most schools have neither available. Until these fundamental problems are addressed, the bullies have an edge. The best we can do is support the victims.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
Come on, post the district's web page, they'll find out what a Slashdot is.
As for social development, children who came before the collectivist "assembly-line" method of education did just fine.
WTF does "the human soul" have to do with learning? And since when were parents not "a third party"? And given the amount of cruelty in any Dickens book, which provides pretty decent insight into a era before formalized education, what's this "social development... did just fine" bullshit?
You are the one person least qualified to teach your children anything useful. Please, give them over to someone who knows how to think!
--
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
chances_of_getting_anywhere = hell.snowball;
Jumping up and down in PTA won't help either, not that anyone with a clue would stand a chance of getting on the board.
The big reason is school is doing what it's designed to do - it's working - so trying to fix it is futile. Sean's just plain lucky that he's escaped the system - sorta - and will be miles better off being home educated, as long as his parents don't try to turn their home into a replica of school.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Yah, but the real reason is: you're a threat to the status quo. School exists to deliver courses. Actually enjoying the course subject and running ahead of the messenger breaks the lock-step rhythm of the class progression, and also upsets the nice information heirarchy of experts->eddept->headmaster->teachers->students.
Welcome to the place where we're all equal, and every else gets booted out (well, maybe some are more equal than others). The school chorussed ``we're all individuals'' and your response was ``I'm not!'' (-: Good upon ya :-)
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
All of the independent tests done so far show HS kids either interacting better, or being indistinguishable from their State schooled peers - unless you count beating up other children as ``interacting'', which I don't.
The one exception that I personally know of was a Mormon boy, and the social difficulties were obviously associated with his parents' interpretation of LDS doctrine (many apparently plain English words mean different (usually odd) things in LDS land) in their everyday life.
All of the other HS kinder I know (maybe 30 or so) are more eager to converse, ask more intelligent questions, and are more likely to constructively use the answers on the spot than ``your average'' child.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
For Sean, it does. Or at least, it limits the problem to occasions when he meets his tormentors on the street. And of course, his home curriculum could include assorted martial arts...
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
No.
Two kids who have either learned to first-hand at school or been pre-conditioned by others (e.g. siblings who have learned as above) will. Elsewhere, this is not a given. In home education, for example, bullying depends on the parents' attitudes and actions.
My number 1 son's interaction with a family of 3 boys (his cousins) is instructive: there is abrasion between he and the school-age oldest, and with the next one down, but not with the youngest - the oldest was de-schooled recently, and the second didn't go to kindergarten like the oldest, so the youngest isn't getting anything like the same amount hand-me-down attitude erosion that the middle child did.
I would suspect the regimented environment of intensifying the aberrant reactions, on top of this.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Actually, several studies have show that teaching qualifications impair your effectiveness as a home educator.
One example had mentally handicapped teenagers educating their children at home and producing noticeably better results than State schools.
Lay your fears to rest, Brian.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
versus
Really? Then why is it bad/naughty/wicked to murder a six-month-old child, but OK to murder that exact same child kicking and struggling eight months earlier?
You can't have your moral cake AND eat it too, Brad.
That holds just as well for religion, by the way. One major religion has been more or less directly responsible for 60 million definitely documented deaths, possibly an order of magnitude more and almost certainly more than double, PLUS more deaths from starting both world wars (lending a big hand to the Axis in the second), the American Civil War and sundry others.
And if you think that the licence for wholesale butchery on ``moral'' grounds is an exclusive possession of conventional religion, consider the Reign of Terror in France, and nearly a century of Atheistic Communism in the USSR. (It's 2AM in Stalingrad: ``Knock-knock.'' ``Who's there?'' ``You have to ask?'').
Now, consider murdering children post-partum. It happens right now in China to lots of baby girls, a consequence of their one-child policy. And it's being proposed as a legitimate activity in the USA by an Atheist group. Meanwhile, euthanasia is eating into our brains trust at the other end of the age spectrum. How long until it meets in the middle?
Moral relativism at its best. ``Thou shalt not kill,'' a moral absolute, is much safer.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Religion is a process; it's a process of exercising a belief; it's a belief in the process of life, possibly also afterlife and/or beforelife (although not so in the case of Atheism). Humanism, a subset of Atheism, is a belief in your own life process.
Faith in evolution requires belief without proof, often in the face of proof, so it's even a religion for those dimwits who insist that religion requires the absence of proof, or belief only in unprovables.
Evolution is a religion. QED.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Almost makes me wish I was moderating, but I seem to attract a lot of bad karma. Something to do with not being politically correct, I think...
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Well, many a year ago, I was in the same kind of position that Sean was in. I.e. at the bottom of the pecking order, and everyone thought it would be good to pick on me.
As a result, I have several scars from attacks by stick, broken bottle and various other items, and these physical scars are with me over 20 years after I left this school.
If my parents had found out about it, I'm sure they'd have intervened. Or tried something.
But, when you're threatened with more, by many people, then.. You learn to keep things hidden.
I did. And I got rather good at it.
Now, years later, my younger brother attended the same school (well after I eventually told my parents what had happened at this place), and they assumed that things would be different.
They weren't.. My brother is another free thinker, and different to the herd.
This time, when my folks spotted the 'signs' (and yes, you _really_ have to look hard in a lot of cases), they confronted the school board.
The solution?
The School Head suggested that my parents "Invite the bully in question around, take them both out for a day, or a weekend, and 'let them get to know each other better'.."..
In other words, my folks should pay for the bully's entertainment and food and what not for a weekend or so, just because he beat up my brother.
Since that day, I lost all respect for the politicos and ass convering administrators across the world.
Malk
Stop sending your kids to the government schools.
They're teaching to the lowest common denominator, and the attitude (not all of them, but enough, and this is the attitude you need to succeed, so the administrators are even more likely to think this way) is that kids will "even out".
If you don't want your kid to "even out", you'd prefer he *STAY* smart, send him to a private school. They're not that expensive; here in Orlando, it's no more expensive than a year of day care.
If you can't afford private school, stop and think about whether you can afford to live on one paycheck more than you can afford to have stupid, indoctrinated kids.
Or move to a state where the government recognizes that if you aren't *USING* the government schools, you shouldn't be *PAYING* for the government schools.
The bottom line is, don't be so selfish that having a nicer car or being able to eat out every night is more important than getting your kids an education that isn't mass-produced.
-
They should definitely get a high-profile lawyer invovled and sue the principal for the suspension, the district for providing no appeal or due process, and the state for failing to provide the support the students need.
Better yet, how much trouble do you think it'd take to get the students mobilized in his defense? I mean, even if they don't like the kid, do you really think they'd turn down a protest strike? If the whole school came in one day and didn't leave homeroom until they readmit Sean, or if they all just stay home -- what then?
The thing that scares me the most about this sort of thing is not that it happens, but at how quickly and easily parents and kids roll over and take the punishment. Sean ought to just ignore the suspension -- go back to class. Let the police forcibly remove him from the school, with the cameras rolling.
School administrators, it is time for you to WAKE THE FUCK UP! It is illegal in this country to verbally threaten someone with harm. It is illegal in this country to touch someone without their permission. It is illegal in this country to molest other people's belongings without their permission. It is illegal in this country to band together in a group for the purpose of engaging in other illegal activities. All of this, and more, is illegal, everywhere but inside of a school! There we teach the criminals that it is ok to do all these things, for the only people who get punished are those that you do this crap TO! They get tossed out if they show the slightest little bit of interest in defending themselves.
One of these days a really bright kid is going to snap and we will have an event that will make Columbine look like a walk in the park. Some day, and I fear it is not long off, some kid will really want revenge and his home-made bombs will denonate when they are supposed to, and hundreds of kids, and their families, are going to pay for the cowardice of the school administration to enforce existing laws.
What's saddest of all, is that cowardice is fueled by the sick practice of funding schools based on the number of asses in chairs. The schools are loathe to get rid of problem students not because they want to educate those kids, or think that they belong in class, but because the schools get paid to keep them. The school administrations are consciously choosing to allow kids to continue to be abused daily because the school administration gets more money that way.
How do we know that Sean told his father about the bullying, more than perhaps once, if that?
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Every home schooled person I've come across (warning! sample size of one!) has had problems interacting with people.
I have come across more than one in my life, but for the most part (there are ALWAYS exceptions) I have to agree with you on this one. I believe it has something to do with the fact that, while most home schooled children get better educations more well suited for thier induvidual talents, they suffer in that they do not have constant social interaction outside of the home. This does leave a mark on a person, but ultimately, most of our genuises don't fit in anyhow, why should we start making them do so?
You say you want a revolution....
A brief consultation session would probably cost you very little (if anything), and you might learn about options that you did not know you had.
A decent rule of thumb when shopping for a lawyer is that the good one's don't charge to browse. An initial consultation that's along the lines of "Is there any chance of a happy legal outcome/what can you do for me?" is always free. A good, honest lawyer will hear the basics of your issue, and then tell you that either 1) they can take your case, and the odds are whatever, 2) they won't take the case because the odds blow, and here's why they blow, or 3) they won't take it because they don't feel qualified, but let me call up my friend who specializes/is better at this sort of thing.
And yes, this is the sort of thing where you really should talk to a lawyer. It's a huge burden of your time/money, and you should at least investigate what can be done. And if you have money to spare, then please fight the good fight to keep this sort of thing from becoming the norm. A small amount of favorable precident can go a long way, and the mearest possibility of a successful legal action scares most public institutions shitless. The school district is acting like assholes because they are afriad of getting sued when there is a disaster and somebody gets it in their head that the district didn't do enough and is liable. They need to be more afraid of getting sued for violating student's human rights.
If you can't get past the profanity, there's no hope for you anyway.
Look, mailbombing these idiots isn't going to do any good. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a knee-jerk reaction. Regardless, there will be so many of them that an admin is just going to wipe it clean every hour for a few days until we forget about this story and find something else to complain about. If you really want to make a difference, talk to someone IN PERSON at school, or at least stop preaching to the choir (Katz: this means you too). Stop hiding behind your computer. Throwing epithets through pseudo-anonymous electronic communication is pointless.
(segue)
Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity. Don't fight stupidity with stupidity, try to communicate. Don't hate the people who hate you. You might be surprised to find out that bully is a lot like you.
After all, all of those kids that bullied him will probably live in fear for their lives until they're out of school now :)
But seriously, I think the best thing that father and son could do now is go to the court of public opinion, and fast. Not /., though - I mean the "real media" that the community is exposed to ("what's a slashdot?" - he he). Try to get an interview in the local papers, TV news, etc., or at least write letters to the editor. If you spin the story as "why did our school systems allow things to come to this" you might make an attractive story for the media, especially since he's never been in any kind of trouble before. Make sure going to /. was your first step into the public eye, not your last step or your only one.
Try finding one sympathetic school board member - depending on the politics in your area, if the school board's a highly-contested position, there's probably a political split or two in the board that you can use to advantage. At the very least you might get a quicker hearing on the situation.
I would hesitate to go the legal route, simply because Sean's comments probably did violate the letter of the school policy. However, the school should also have policies on bullying and on considering all sides of the issue before expelling anyone. And if they don't, that's more fodder for the media gristmill. You want to cultivate a tone of "What the hell kind of district are you running here? This could be your kid in front of a kangaroo court next...".
Good luck, and make sure Jon gets permission before putting you in his next book :)
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Oh Hell no, I know the media sensationalizes everything that happens. Part of it's because of the 24-hour news channels, resulting in the top stories getting totally played out, no matter what they are. Part of it is due to the general anti-gun bias of the mainstream media. I'm a strong 2nd Amendment supporter. I wish that anytime there's a story on guns in schools, the reporters would relate the statistical chance of a kid getting shot at school with the chances of them drowning in a pool, getting injured in a car accident, getting struck by lightening, etc. And I think the media's done a deplorable job of showing the dropping crime rates in places that have instituted concealed carry laws, especially in comparison to those places which place heavy restrictions on legally gun owners — you know, ultra-safe places like Washington, DC.
There was a recent story (I want to say it was by Tom Squitteri of USA Today) discussing how even though violent crime went down during the '90s, ABC News coverage of violet crime stories went up 38% over the same time period. What a surprise.
Cheers,
In the world described by Varsity Blues, there is no place for smart, curious kids who learn to actually do something valuable. The people that run the town feel threatened by these kids, and the Columbine concern is simply their most conveient tool nowadays to put the teen that thinks a little differently (or at all) in what they see as his place.
In this way, public schools display no values and show themselves to be a morally bankrupt institution. In many cases such as this, pulling your kids out is the best thing you can do for them. But your kid has to learn, right?
May I recommend homeschooling. There are many resources available for parents choosing to homeschool their children. here would be an excellent place to start.
The wonderful thing about homeschooling is that you can instill actual values in your children without the state breating down your neck. By taking advantage of the many Truth-centered learnming materials out there, your child can learn that he was not just an accident and that he is accountable to a higher authority. Our morally bankrupt culture will improve if we commit ourselves to these principles. All things are possible.
--
Vidi, Vici, Veni
Public school is but one alternative today. I have home schooled my kids and know first and the benefits. Luckily today there are some great resources on the net. My first read was John Holt. He has taught from kindergarden to Harvard. He started off trying to change the system from within in the early 60s to advocating homeschooling in the late 60s. I still love the book title _burn the schools, save the children_.
A blistering attack on public schools by the NY Teacher of the Year John Gatto - can be found in his acceptance speech Ouch.
Is home schooling for everyone? No.
But is is an alternative and a great one at that. Read lots.
Exactly. The state of our current culture is one in which a massive bureacratic process is used to compensate for lacking character traits in society, be they control of violent response, upbringing of our children by their family and community, compassion for others in the face of trouble, etc. And this large government body, much to the dissapointment of the body and those who elected it, is incapable of fulfilling the role as well as we would like. No, it's not fair, and no, the system will never be perfect.
But there is another lesson here for Sean and his parents: There's always room for improvement. There's always a flaw or a crack in the system, to which the individuals can contribute even the tiniest positive force. Sean's getting an early lesson in sociology, and it's a lesson worth learning. It may not be the easiest way to get through the next few years of his life, but a little hard work does pay off in the end.
Finally, let's review the results (so far) of these incidents: Sean (like many of us who share a common background) has been pushed around and bullied, not only by his fellow students, but by his administration. It's not fun, but he's going to come out of it a little tougher, and hopefully with a little more understanding of how to work the system to his advantage in the future. Given the concern his parents are taking in the issue, I'd wager he's likely to come out of this healthier and better adjusted then the average high school student. Even if he ends up being home schooled for the rest of his high school years, he'll have the opprotunity to further solidify a bond with his family at home. And regardless of where he attends classes, he'll always have the opprotunity to pursue relationships with past and new friends. He'll also be either pursueing a career, or beginning post-secondary education soon enough. My only concern here is that a little false security on the part of the other parents doesn't cost him a permanent stain on a piece of paper that will follow him around for the rest of his life. Any reference to Sean's psychological profile in his record should not be available outside of that institution. Not only was it performed by people unqualified to be handing out diagnosies, but the're confidential. Fight with those two points if you need to. But honestly, I have to believe that Sean's clear well-spokenness will more then make up for a couple of stray marks on his high school record.
"You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
I'm calling the Mailroom Clerk right away. He has to know about this gross miscarriage of justice!
Reality has a liberal bias
Maybe his father can get some pro bono legal aid. I used to be against sending my future children to private school, but the way our public education system is worsening, I may have to suck it up. He should find out who ratted him out and make their life difficult. Obviously, the system isn't working correctly.
Blar.
Sending him back to that school is only going to increase the taunting, ridicule, etc. Those people never get punished. Either homeschool him, or move to a different school district. Preferably the latter, because while my school experience sucked, I still feel I learned a lot from interacting with other people when the interaction wasn't someone introducing their fist to my stomach.
I got the SHIT kicked out of me almost every day in junior high. And most people probably recall, no matter who starts the fight or throws punches, both people get suspended. I missed over 30 days of school that year due to suspensions and almost failed the grade, because I spent too much time getting picked on. No one looks into what leads up to those scenarios. The instigators rarely, if ever, get punished for their actions. What good does the suspension do then, if the root of the problem isn't attacked? I suppose it let me heal my wounds for a couple days before I returned to school and got some new ones, but that's about it.
Ohwell. Life sucks, and it's not going to change. Deal with it the best way you can, but the best way is NOT appealing that decision and trying to get the kid back into an enviroment where he'll deal with even MORE harassment and bullying. Move.
BilldaCat
-sk
The rest of your life won't be this way.
... being a know-it-all doesn't ... but having real intelligence isn't something that gets "squished" in college the same way it might in high school)
High School can be a wonderful experience, but it can also be a terrible one. I won't lie to you; it's not easy. I hated high school at first, but as it went on, and I found the right friends and the right teachers, I actually enjoyed it.
Everything changes when you go to college. See, in college, everyone there is _paying to go there._ As such, it's a totally different environment. Being one of the "smart kids" earns you respect.
(Note, being a "smart ass" doesn't
You're only a freshman -- give school a little time. Maybe you'll find some people who you feel comfortable letting in to your life. Maybe you won't. But four years is a long time to shut everyone out....
Not representing or approved by my company or anybody else.
Yes, you are the only person who is wondering how much "bullying" Sean was subjected to..
I for one was 5'1", glasses, no style, acne, and puny in high school.
I was in the band, played a number of instruments, was into electronic music, and was (is?) a computer geek from the first time I played a Vectrex.
Besides the constant - i mean _every_ _fucking_ day in at least one class per semester, if not more - verbal harrassment...
such as "Hey, fuck face... what did you and your little band nerds do this weekend? Blow each other on the bus?"
physical harrassment....
such as pushing, slapping on the head, punching in the arm, getting cross-checked (sorry for the hockey term, but I play hockey (now) and upon reflection, its was a lot of that) in the back, and then, for fun, during PE it would be tripping, elbowing, slapping (a lot of slapping to the back of the head IIRC) while running... and during sports, generally them taking out their agressions on me in the form of tackling during soccer (once got a broken nose) by guys that would one day be d-line for the football team...
it was frowned upon to even bring it up.. and any action by the teachers was limited to "hey, leave him alone" and a finger wag.
This is because they almost never outright beat the shit out of me, but would constantly (i mean every time you saw them) be something along the lines of a quick verbal along with a physical abuse - nothing dangerous - the teachers either had to see it (which they never did because kids are not stupid) or they had to just wag their finger because they all know how to pull an Eddie Haskel.. that is, they all KNEW that they were doing it and their fake "Gee Miss Walters" bullshit wasn't believed, but what could they do?
Can you see suspending a kid for "picking" on another kid? Give me a break.... Eddie Haksels father is either a lowlife or a rich guy (as was the case at my school) and so all they had to do was say "lawyer" and that would be the end of that idea.
Looking back at it over 13 years ago, i can now, of course, see that being a highly-paid professional and they are most likely either working in a surf shop or at Pup-n-Taco, I can live with it. I have a incredibly gorgeous wife, drive a nice sled, and have 2 G4's at home with 1.5 gigs of memory and a gigEthernet switch between them.
But back then, the concept of bringing a gun to school was just not contemplated.. yet i did snap.. on a number of occasions..
One time, a kid that had given me an elbow to the face - i went up to him in the locker room and beat the shit out of him with my cleete.
Another time, I took my trumpet and hit a guy in the head with it because he had backed me into a corner.
My father could have done precious little for me because, hell, he had a job. He did bring me up right.. and he did instil in me self worth and the ability to see a brighter day (because my dad was a nerd and he does just fine as i saw).... so i _knew_ it would get better, but not for years.
What was my dad going to do? Yell at the school? What is he going to say "the kids are picking on my kid"... and? suspend them? How? They were never seen, and they almost never left any permanent marks. And kids have been picking on other kids for years.
The problem is that people are reducing the options available for the weaker, geekier kids to retaliate... i'd get taken out of school for years now if i hit a guy in the head with a cleete... yet then, nothing happened to me. And the guy that i smacked with a trumpet so hard he had to get stiches? Hell - he wasn't about to tell anyone that a band geek beat him.
I don't know about how YOU had it in school, but personally, I think its about time the geek kids got back at the other guys in better ways... with their means.. making websites of the bullies engaged in sex with goatse.cx, having adult toys sent to their houses and such.. you know, harmless, but effective ways of tormenting them back.
If you discount the shit that Sean had to put up with.. and believe that his dad could have taken any real action against kids who, basically, didn't cause any provable damage - then you're a fool, or you were a jock.
If you think that you can have a kid kicked out for bullying your kid - then you're mistaken about your power as a father.
Unless you have the guts/ability|desire to play their game - by saying that the bully said he was going to kill everyone or say that you saw the bully groping a 12 year old girl - then there's nothing you can do about kids picking on other kids.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
If you can afford it, you might consider hiring a lawyer to interact with the school officials. You don't need to file a lawsuit. Just have your lawyer start asking questions about the school's policy on "physical and verbal abuse" and "harassment" of kids by kids. It might not help your kid very much, but at least it will get school officials thinking about it for the other kids.
The problem you might have though is how much the school officials knew about the harassment. If Sean has kept silent the whole time, and if the school officials did not observe (or do not admit to obverving) any harassment, then you are probably SOL.
We had a history teacher who was a big war gaming geek, and during study hall kids would play simulation games and even (gasp) AD&D. Of course, we had to keep it on the down low so the religious nuts wouldn't freak out and claim that we were practicing satanism.
My computer science teacher was also the track and basketball coach. My math teacher coached football. After a long day in the zone coding pascal on IIgs'es, we'd learn the benefits of being in good physical shape. (Hint: bullies tend not to pick on people that are bigger or stronger than themselves.)
To this very day I enjoy gaming. My favorites tend to be multiplayer team games like Tribes and Team Fortress Classic. Pure deathmatch style games just aren't terribly appealing to me.
But it was the bullies who brought up the "gun talk" in this case, probably in a calculated way. I'm sure they are having a good laugh about it amongst themselves right now.
We have to remember that everyone has the potential to be victim or villain. Everyone has a breaking point at which they can no longer tolerate being the victim. At that point, they will stoop to the level of the aggressors (or possibly stoop even lower) and become villains themselves.
Above all, we need to keep in mind cause and effect. We need to nip the bulleying in the bud before it gets to the point that it consumes the victims every thought to the detriment of education, sanity, and public safety.
In this case, there is no evidence that the kid was fantasizing about shooting his tormentors. It was one of the bullies who brought up the "geek shoots up the school" meme.
In this case, it does not appear that there was any premeditated wish to kill anybody. The kid simply responded in a relatively natural and understandable way to the bully's taunting comment "One of these days, he's going to bring a gun to school and shoot us". There's a big difference between his sarcastic response to their ribbing and actually compiling a list of people to kill, etc.
The problem is that we're talking about the Machine here.
Someone who is different, extremely bright, and imaginative is almost by definition a danger.
That person is a danger to the status quo.
Take the example of of Ghandi. He was all of the above. He wouldn't hurt a fly. And by not hurting a fly, he wrested control of a major nation from what was the dominant world power.
Quite literally, he was the most dangerous man in the British Empire.
Put the different, bright, and imaginative people among those of the status quo, and you get one of two things. Either you get people who want to ride their coattails, or (more likely) you get people with a tremendous urge to beat down that person as hard and as fast as possible, before they have a chance to change the world. I don't think we're taught to do that. I think it's genetic--a survival instinct to keep some mad genius from turning us all on a dime.
It isn't pretty, and it isn't right. But it is so. It's as much a law of nature as gravity, and we have to learn it and work with it.
--The basis of all love is respect
Please, please do not flame or crapflood these people. I have just taken 90 minutes to write a letter to them to try to reason with them, and I hope that it won't get lost in the flames.
Really, if we want to help Sean, we must act positively. Write messages supporting him and explaining our position about this. Don't email bomb them, send them threats, or fill their box with obscense messages. That will never help Sean out.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
If you're a father then you should know how the typical conversation between a kid and his dad can go:
Father: "So son, how was your day at school."
Son: "Okay."
Father: "What did you learn?"
Son: "Nothing."
Father: "Meet any girls today?"
Son: "Daaayyyyd"
Father: "Anything I should know about?"
Son: "Nothing."
Father: "Kill anyone today."
Son: "Nope."
The point is, unless you've got an unusually strong bond with your kid the conversation tends to be a bit one sided. This means that in the real world you never know there's a problem with your kid in school until it jumps out and bites you in the butt.
This I know from being on both sides of the street. I was the kid who got in trouble and got suspended. If my dad knew half of the things I was up to he would have had a heart attack.
In most cases of harrassment at school kids don't report it because it is humiliating enough as it is. Don't you just think it's possible the kid never told his dad he had a problem.
On a side note: "If this had been a real gun, you'd be dead," is neither a threat nor is it stupid. It's just a statement. I would sue the school and go for damages. Let the district pay for its stupidity.
On another side note: Where's the web site for the school so we can spam them into oblivion.
Beware the wood elf!!!
What is the idea here? This kid's a typical fucked-up kid and he gets in trouble.
I think the idea is that the other fucked-up kids that have been harassing and abusing him didn't get in trouble. The lack of an actual investigation in favour of a knee-jerk expulsion probably didn't help.
Quite frankly, if Sean was "fucked-up", as you describe him, that final rejection would have probably triggered the kind of shooting nightmare the administrators, in their fear, were trying to avoid. But then, I guess thought before action has never been a requirement of public education leadership, as sad and pathetic as it seems.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
I'm appreciative of good teachers and administrators as well; a few good teachers are the reason I didn't just give up on high school completely after a first couple of really, really crappy years. I don't think "appease[ing] the majority" requires letting their kids be thugs while the victims get tossed out for even thinking of fighting back.
Actually, I think a lot of parents would love to see a legitimate crackdown on bullying and in-school terrorism. Unfortunately, the policies that are put in place to prevent just this sort of incident from happening are forgotten, only to be remembered and applied with extreme prejudice when someone who isn't part of a larger group mouths the word "gun". What I wouldn't give to see the proper application of zero-tolerance policies with regard to physical and verbal abuse...then again, school populations would likely fall by as much as half, with all the explusions.
Maybe that would be a good thing; let the people who wish to learn remain, boot the idiots who refuse to be taught and let them learn on their own.
A million maybes...and no answers. Although, a good way to start might be a parent or victim standing up to say "Stop. This is wrong, and it needs to be changed, and I bet I can find one million people who agree with me."
Dreams...
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
...a 12-year-old New Jersey girl was threatened with three days of suspension...for using sign language on a bus?
The Associated Press story is reposted at Indymedia.
Also note the link to the school district's site in the comments...give 'em hell.
At this rate, blind people will be suspended for bringing white canes to school...
I have to wonder, in the midst of all this madness...what the flying fuck is going on around here? Who started handing out the stupid pills, and why are they so fucking popular with school administrators?
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Yes, the school administrators are over reacting, and yes, the punishment does not fit the offense by a long shot. But what do we expect from public schools, nobody ever said they were run by intelligent people.
And that's to be accepted in a "civilized" society?
Fuck that.
People pay hard-earned tax dollars to cover the cost of public education, in the hope that their children might - MIGHT - learn enough to survive on their own, perhaps get a good job, make a few friends.
People do not pay hard-earned tax dollars to have their children bullied and threatened while teachers and administrators stand by and do nothing, unless the victims even hint at striking back, in which case the pop pseudopsychology kicks in, and suddenly they become crusading defenders. Of who and what, I'm not sure. Maybe of their jobs - "I prevented another Columbine, give me a raise!" - or some other demented reason.
Maybe parents of abused students (and that's exactly the term for it, abuse) should pull their kids out and send them to private schools. Maybe they should home-school. Maybe they should refuse to pay taxes until they start getting their money's worth. Maybe parents and kids should stage protests, sit-ins, demand the bums be thrown out, demand that some justice and sanity start being applied to the schools they (and you) pay for.
Maybe some parents should start taking an active interest in what their kids are doing outside of home. I wonder how many of the bullies' folks know how they treat other kids. I wonder if they even care.
A stupid statement like Sean's probably would have been ignored ten, even five years ago. For that matter, so would the bullying.
Perhaps if abused students and their parents took a stand and demanded a crackdown on the type of abuse that occurs in public schools, the backlashes wouldn't happen anymore.
end rant.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
The PROBLEM with making threats is the the bullies have learned where the "edges" of the system are, and how to manipulate the system for their own gain. You make a threat, THEY go to the adminstrator, and use THAT to bully you!
Let me tell you what DID work for ME
I was the kid in Jr high that got picked on all the time, and beat on at least twice a week, and even stabbed with an xacto knife once. I tried the school administrators, I tried Mom and Dad. Nothing worked, until...
Dad decided it was time for me to play the bullies own game back. Dad taught me to FIGHT. Not "clean" like most kids, but dirty. HOW dirty? Dad was in the OSS (Folks, these guys were the foundation of ALL US Military special forces). He taught me a bunch of what they taught him
I didn't make ANY threats. I just kicked the crap out of the bullies. Believe it or not, you'll probably get suspended for LESS time (Heck, the bullies don't get tossed, right?). After you take out the top one or two bullies once or twice, it ENDS. They realize you are no longer the easy target
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
If the administrators won't do their job - ensuring a safe public education for ALL students - then REMOVE THEM FROM OFFICE!. If the principal won't do his job, fire him for cause! (Something that the school board can do).
The principal and school board will drag out this case for years in the court, and will do everything they can to keep others from learning the details. They'll even claim it's for Sean's protection.
But they can't stop the media from covering a candidate for political office demanding accountability by principals when they attempt to violate the Constitutional rights of students. They can't stop the media from doing "candidate profiles" where Patrick explains that he's running the school board because his son was hounded out of the school by teenage morons and spineless administrators -- and he wants to protect other families from the pain his suffered.
As an aside, our local school board got out of control a few years ago. They eventually sacked the popular principal of one of the high schools, installing their own crony. None of them survived the next election cycle, and that ex-principal became the new head of the school board. School board elections are normally low on the political radar - unless you have children in the public schools, they rarely grab your attention. But that means that one person, with a good cause, can bring in enough extra voters to replace boards en masse.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Every security scenario uses some form of this. Otherwise you'd never be able to store everything that goes on, because it's an infinitely increasing amount of data. So whether it's a looped tape, or a recycling policy, you have a window to discover that something happened and to grab the tape in question. Otherwise the tape will be recycled and then the data is gone for good.
it's just like tape backing up your computer. You can't possibly afford enough tape to never recycle one, so you institute a policy which gives you usually a 1 or 2 week window. If you discover you need to restore something, if the damage happened more than 1 or 2 weeks ago, it's gone for good.
What he's saying is that there was such short recycling on the tape used that by the time they realized there was a problem it was too late.
Why should a teacher give rat's ass on the puny salary they make. I am amazed that they show up at school at all. Where I live a teacher makes about 15K. Man I spend more money on sushi every year!.
Yea go ahead and fire them see if you can find replacement suckers.
War is necrophilia.
30K where? In NY or SF or LA or in most large citites in the US 30K is poverty wages. No matter where I lived I bet I would pay more for sushi in one year then a teacher makes. Like I said I am always amazed when a teacher gives a shit about anything. I know if I was working for those wages I would have serious attitude problem.
War is necrophilia.
Home school your son. He'll thank you for it later, even if he doesn't paticularly care for it now. Not only will he expand his mind many times over what his peers will, he'll do some actual learning, as opposed to simply doing busy work, which public school is well known for. He'll learn how to think for himself and have his own thoughts - traits which are drastically lacking in this society, as is portrayed by the assinine behavior of the administrators.
As for you, Katz, STFU. Please. Enough of this 'defend the poor, helpless, underage geeks!' These kids are capable of defending themselves in such situations - I did. Granted, my parents backed me up, but I took the initiative. A kid has been picking on you? Talk to the administration about the harassment, or simply tell the kid to leave you alone. If he doesn't, talk to the administration. If still nothing helps due to stupid school politics revolving around athletics or other items, sue the bastard child's ass off, or the school district, for being negligent.
Heck, knocking out a few teeth would even be reasonable compared to the bloody stupid approach Katz suggests - I'm sure you could plead temporary insanity or provoked violence in a court of law and get away free, if it came to that. Invasion of self and property and physical harassment/abuse are probably means enough to defend yourself.
-------
CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Well, yes. Every functional society banishes people who engage in assault, theft, vandalism, etc.
To develop an alternate educational system catering only to the geek, the meek and the ones who do not speak?
It would probably be more effective to develop (or, more precisely, to use the already-developed) alternative educational system for people who need a clue-by-four to convey the message that certain minimal standards of civilized behavior are required.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
I'll concede that it's a bit more complicated than shipping them off to some type of "boot camp" environment (though the latter should be there as a last resort if all else fails).
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
In HS, a couple friends and I were arrested for vandalism. We were guilty, did our community service, and paid the fines. ;)
In the car was a friend's BB gun. It had been 'modified' with a scope. Ya, silly, but it was a cool BB gun
Word spread quickly around the school of our arrest. Who could believe geeks were vandals! [gasp!]
The rumour mill, as usual, went crazy. Before ya know it, we had been arrested with an AK-47 and were plotting to blowup the school. LOL!
We visited the principle, explained the stupidity, they called the police, confirmed it was a BB gun, we had to talk with the school psychiatrist, and life went on.
THANK GOD I'm not in HS these days, or I'd have been expelled!
Idiots.
Call the local papers- get YOUR community fired up about such ridiculous behavior.
Go to school board meetings and be a PITA.
You can make this an issue if you rally.
Call the ACLU and see if they'll represent your kid.
GOOD LUCK, and stay strong Sean.
KM
Kinda like Moe, but just a little more Kool
You troll, the point is that *this kid DOES NOT need help*. This kid is behaving *normally* to being harrassed every single day. The other kids need to be LARTed severely, preferably with large blunt tools which will leave them crippled or in vegetative states for quite a while. You are accusing the victim ("typical fucked-up kid"). To me, kids who routinely harrass and pick on others are the ones that are "fucked-up" and need to be sent to juvenile detention centers or some third world country where they might gain an appreciation for actually having some smarts.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
..is that his father actually stuck up for him, and believed what he said. All too often, the schools would expect the parents to just ignore the 'stupid little kid' and take their mandate as bonafide truth.
Kudos to Sean's father.
It would be interesting in these cases if the family could actually mount a case against the school authorities for not protecting their son from protracted bullying, citing what he said as a result of mental trauma.... I can't believe an authority can have an unconstitutional right to exclude a pupil for the simple crime of trying to cope with harassment....
I believe they can do just that. I know there have been a couple of cases where people have come back and sued their school district because they were being harassed for being gay during school (regardless of whether it was true or not), and the staff/administration of the school was fully away of the harassment and never lifted a finger to stop it.
I don't see how a case like this is any different - once again, students being harassed by other students for perceived differences, and the staff is fully aware yet does nothing to remedy the situation.
Yes, I'm as tired of all the lawsuits today as the next person, but sometimes they do serve legitimate purposes. Teaching schools to treat all kids as being equal and deserving of the same treatment is definately far from frivilous.
---
"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
(MORONVILLE, TX) - Today a ceremony was held at the local high school to give a group of children Medals of Honor for enforcing conformity. The medals, donated by AOL-Time Warner, McDonalds, PepsiCo. and other global megacorps, were for their efforts to expose fellow student Sean Seeley as a psychopath who was prepared to blow up the entire school.
"It took years of harassment and torture to finally get the student to show his true self, but these children refused to back away from their horrible treatment of Sean to get to the truth," stated principal Dorf McMoron. "We need to make it clear to these kids that they are here to learn skills to make them happy little workers and consumers for society, and that individualism leads down a bad road to original thought and questioning of our basic Family Values, and we can't have that."
There was an incredibly huge amount of support for the children from the community for their effort. "We can't have kids like Sean in schools. They'll ruin the educational conformity system that we so love", stated one parent. Said another, "bullying is a way of life. I bullied many many kids around in my day, and I make sure my son beats up on some faggot wimp every week, or I kick him with my spurs a few times. Those little wimps need to learn to suck it up, deal with it, like the ones I beat on. Guns are only to defend yourself against criminals, not good ol' red-blooded American bullies, and that's why I have my 350 guns and NRA membership."
The American Family Association was present, accusing the American culture of violent pedophilic homosexual atheist liberals of ruining society, and they are "happy to see one of the horribly persecuted Christians standing up for family values against Satan." When someone pointed out that this had absolutely nothing to do with any of those issues, they responded "See? They're trying to censor us! They're evil, they're evil!"
---
"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
There are a lot of resources here. Lawyers, home schooled people, people who might have been in the same situation. I would love to get 100,000 people to give me advice in some situations. Especially in raising a kid. Having to read through 700 posts seems like a small price to pay for some useful ideas.
And, as a parent, I'm intensely curious to see how this plays out. My son's not quite 3 yet, but his future education is very important and something we're constantly thinking about. I'm sure it will be the largest factor in where we buy our next house. (Note: Put 'North of Dallas' as one of the places not to move to.)
/. editors and Jon Katz, keep stuff like this coming.
--
You have got to love these anal school districts. No really, you have to or they'll kick you out. :)
We had a case here where a kid brought a gun to school, along with $1500 worth of fake heroin, this was a middle school. He was given a 5-day suspension and that was it. Another kid wrote a list of names out like: "people I don't like" and they interpreted it as "people who I wish to kill in a blood bath". People over react with the smallest things but then when big things happen they want to keep them out of the news. It makes them look like they're doing their jobs, "protecting our kids".
He's only got 1 more year to go then he's off to college where it will be different for him. High school is hell, everyone knows it (well, most geeks) where social popularity rules instead of academic achievement. But I figure, once I'm out the chance that the football star, fake 4.0 (no honors classes, easiest load known to man, parents are "teachers") will become anything useful are slim to none. We'll see what these people become in the future. I know at my 10-year reunion I'm going to have a nice little laugh.
The school district already has the solution to school violence. A dress code! Check it out.
Quotes for the lazy:
Efforts are being made by MISD to ensure the highest standards of performance for all MISD stakeholders and to promote a safe and secure environment free of the perception of fear, threat, or danger.
A strong correlation exists between student appearance and the perception and/or reality of school violence.
It then goes on to list all possible fun ways to dress and look.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I remember high school. I graduated in '82.
I was a nerd. I got picked on. I got beat up. I was harassed. I think I got kicked out for a day once for fighting. With a friend. His parents took us to see a play on the evening after we were suspended. Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat.
Jocks have always had problems with nerds and geeks. We didn't care about athletics, they hated anyone smarter than they were. Match made in heaven. But how many boys can say they got beat up by the captain of the GIRLS team?
But our administrators didn't have their heads up their asses. If these things were brought to their attention, they did something about it. You might be a nerd and a loser, but they'd try and make sure you at least had a chance. They seemed to think that keeping the jocks in line was part of their job - not getting rid of the "troublemaking" nerds who narced on them.
I was one of the founders of our high school computer club. We were allowed to get away with murder (do I really need to say that I mean that figuratively?). As long as we were pursuing a high-profile academic activity, we were allowed as much lattitude as the jocks who were on a winning team.
We showed weird movies in the auditorium for fund raisers. We did co-op marketing with Radio Shack. I went and testified in front of the county coucil to get more computer money in the school board budget - drawing praise from the principal of another high school in the county.
Somewhere along the line, the emphasis has shifted from encouraging excellence in whatever area the student has chosen to pursue to knee-jerk reactionary explusions of anyone the administrators can't understand or relate to. I don't get it. When I was in high school, none of the administrators understood computers, but they understood that we were good at something important and that we brought positive attention to ourselves and the school as a result.
These days, from everything I hear and read, the main concern is on stifling individuality, and most of the time, athletics is the only really supported outlet for individual achievement.
What the hell happened?
http://drteknikal.blogspot.com/
This page is quite inspiring. Kudos to the ACLU. Just gave the $35 to become a card-carrying member. I recommend you do the same, and let them know that this is an important issue to you, too.
Can your IM do this?
Did he go to the school then? Did he report the bullying? Did he demand that the bullies (if they actually touched Sean) be charged with assault? Whatever you may think of Texas criminal justice, there are still laws against assault, you know.
When I was in Junior High I got picked on a whole lot, my Mom complained to the school and got a shrink to help me deal with it. The end result of all this was ME getting sent to a special school.
The school I went to was basically a boarding school for kids that the school boards couldn't handle, I spent grade 9 there. The bullies in the school had things refined to an art. However it was about this time that genetics took over and I went from the little fat kid to being a good bit bigger and stronger than my classmates. It also happened that there and when I returned to high school I also got meaner than most of the idiots that used to pick on me. After a while it wasn't so much of a problem.
Based on my experience I understand why Sean's father might have been reluctant to get the school involved (I don't actually know what he did about it). All I learned was how to not get picked on by getting a reputation as a tough guy and beating the snot out of people that weren't intimidated by it. It worked but its' hardly a solution I feel good about.
People that run schools have absolutely no idea how to deal with problems like this and they almost never try. Yeah, Sean shouldn't have said that but I would have just hit the prick. Sean's way is still better.
What do you do when they do all this in front of the cameras anyway?
This is the general problem really. Parents have to look at the tapes. The tapes are at the school. Are parents going to look at the tapes? No.
You can't just put a camera and tape. You're talking about hours of tapes and hundreds of students.
No parent is going to sit through hours to look at every instance of malice. Those situations will be spread out over the tapes. You'll spend almost all day fast forwarding for each parent.
Parent Assembly Day? I can just see all the stupid parents claiming it's the school's job to take care of it.
It will be completely ineffective and just put cameras where they don't need to be.
I should know I went to a school where we had the newspaper spy on us. It was horrible, but it didn't stop any of the infrequent violence and it sold papers.
Is it an invasion of privacy? Yes, but so are metal detectors, drug tests and searching lockers. Why not have video cameras?
Why not have electrodes on their heads connected to a central database?
Those things should be removed you idiot.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
She (not you) needs to do something about this. Start a paper trail with the police, carry pepper spray, start taking training for a concealed carry permit (if you live in one of the 32+ states that are 'shall issue').
To sit there and say 'well, this guy might kill me someday, oh well' is no way for adults to live.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
The key to solving this, as home-schoolers have noticed as home-schooling has gained in popularity recently, is to get outside the home. Organize with other home-schoolers and set up your own teams, clubs, groups. Get the kids signed up for dance lessons, tae kwon do, Scouting, church clubs, etc.
Home-schooling is a lot more than sitting at home 24/7 while mommy/daddy teach from a book. Think of the increased freedom to go on field trips at any time, to get practical exposure to the world (like trips to the store), to schedule school the way it works best for your family. On the 5 o'clock news just the other night there was a segment on how home-schooled kids are turning out to be the brightest and most well-adjusted kids entering the US college system today.
I have zero tolerance for zero-tolerance policies.
Constitutionally Correct
I have to agree...to an extent. Here in Arkansas a number of families who home school have organized and have gathering where all the home-schooled kids get to intermingle. But, for the most part their only social interaction is within the family. My experience with home-schooled children (sample size 5) is that it can strongly affect their social skills. This affect will probably be somewhat smaller on someone who starts home school in 11th grade, as opposed to someone who was in it for 16 years. In some states he could take his GED this year...he's probably already taken the SAT/ACT so he might be able to just move on to college next Fall or Spring
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
I was a band/computer geek. I played Alto Sax and messed with, at the time, Apple IIe's. I would purposely stay after school, just so I could get computer time. My family could not afford a ocmputer at the time, so school was the place I did. I caught flack with the other kids for that too.
Why do the smart get persecuted?? Is it because we can think for ourselves and don't follow the mainstream like kids who act like cows? Just because the herd likes Britney Spears, Destiny's Child and Nsync does it mean that I have to? Why is it considered not normal to like some of the stereotypical high school teeny bopper stuff?? Why do we have to like the same music or the same food or the same anything as the rest of the school?? I remember I had a shirt I would wear once or twice a week and I would get ridiculed just for that.
Why when kids get bullied in front of a teacher there is not something done about it? Let me tell you, if you can't handle a High Schooler, then why are you even a teacher???
I think the reason is they are afraid of the ACLU or the parents suing them for doing something that is not their responsiblity, yet the parent isn't even responsable enough to take time off work to attend Parent Teacher Conference night. Heck I used to BE at the conference when I was a kid, usually because the band played for the parents that night.
It's the bullies that should be punished. If my kid was bullying someone and a teacher or administrator knew about it and didn't tell me I'd be mad! The parents of these bullies never get involved in thier kids life because if they were, then they should know better. Personally, I think it came from too much of this time out stuff. Time out is not disciplining a kid, espcially if the time out space has Nintendo and cable. My kid will NOT have a TV, computer or phone in his room when he's in MY house.
Gorkman
I got this reply from the school afer my rant to them.
----
Dear Sir:
I am confused as to the journalistic standards of posting on the internet. =
In the event that this "story" was being published in a reputable =
newspaper, the reporter would have sought comment from the school district =
and background information on the statutory requirements for public =
schools in the State of Texas regarding student discipline. While the =
individual student's right to privacy prevents us from giving out specific =
information on this incident, it does not absolve the provider of the =
information on the internet nor an interested reader from doing the same =
type of responsible information gathering that a reputable reporter would =
have done.
Quite honestly, there are facts around the management of student behavior =
that would offer another perspective on this issue. Unfortunately, none of =
the communication that I have read today has been interested in the facts. =
It seems that most believe that they already have the truth, the whole =
truth, and nothing but the truth.
Respectfully,
Ted Moore
Better than contacting the ACLU might be to make an example out of this school. Take your story to Bill O'reilly on Fox News (I watch that show he'd run something like this). And post the address of teh school here, email and snail mail. If everyone on /. were to contact this people voicing our displeasure I'm sure that someone their would pay attention. Also any lawyers reading /. (ok I know its a long shot) willing to take up this guy's cause?
BTW its refreshing to see a good article by Jon. Good job Jon you covered this one very well.
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
The Anti-Blog
The more I see stuff like this, the less I am for local control of the school system and the more I want to see heavy oversight by the state governments. I would also like to see the governor given strong discretionary power to punish administrators that make such stupid mistakes.
Apparently you're unfamiliar with school politics. Granted, yes, the father (if he knew about the harassment) should have helped out his son by complaining to the school district.
Would anything have been done about it? Nope.
Schools, to AVOID confrontation with parents (being as how they do pay the taxes) will try their darndest to limit the number of parents that get involved in "issues." By saying that there are ten kids...five kids...even ONE kid who's harassing the student, that would involve confronting more than one set of parents. By ignoring the problem, you (AT MOST) anger one set of parents.
We had a problem two years ago in our school district. Two years ago at our local middle school, a student got confronted after school by others who had in the past been harassing him. They started again in their harassment, and he got so angry that he pushed one of them. After that, they punched him a couple times before a school official saw the scuffle and stopped the fight. Because the student who had been harassed began the physical fight, he was suspended by the school district for three days, while the other kids got one day of in-school suspension.
That was that...until the mother of the student went to the news and reported her son's side of the story. SUDDENLY, other parents (unrelated to the incident) started calling in and complaining about how the school handled the incident. The school district folded and dropped the last two days of the student's suspension. With this leverage, the mother filed a formal harassment complaint on behalf of her son to the school district against some of her son's tormentors.
Things were looking on the up-side, until the newspaper dropped the coverage. The school district then rejected the claim of harassment, saying that there was "equal harassment" on both ends during the incident and completely ignored any claim of previous harassment.
If you want to complain to the school district over the incident, don't just have your family complain. Flood the school with as many complaints as you can muster up from other parents of students who attend the school, as well as any possible news agencies. When it comes to the politics of the school system, unless there's pressure in NUMBERS, the administration won't budge.
Yes this stuff is really messed up. In fact two weeks ago this same thing happened to my sister. A couple of kids who didn't like her told the administration that she "had a gun." And so they called the police, and arrested her. No searching, no questioning... just took her downtown. My sister 12 years old, she has no idea where to get a gun... she just worries about playing softball and talking to her friends on the phone. My parents were incredibly upset and are now in a law suit with the district to get her record cleared.. and just like in this story the students were not punished. Protected by an "anonimity" policy... well i hope they at least teach mccarthyism in school so the kids can see what a crock of shit the system is.
- "Never let a computer tell me shit." - DelTron Zero
Please tell me you have not bought into the great lie of the media. Kids are not going out a blowing each other away every day. It is a rare occurrence. You play it as if more shootings are happening all the time. The truth is there aren't as many. We only care because they are happening in suburban schools and didn't stay in the inner cities like they were supposed to.
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
So Linus, what are we going to do tonight?
The same thing we do every night Tux. Try to take over the world!
John "Dark Paladin" Hummel
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
As Diana also pointed out, we may not have all the facts of the case.
I'm willing to accept that she can't comment on the issue to us, since we're not taxpayers in that school district, and I'm also willing to accept that there may be more parameters governing the school administration's observed behavior - more paramters than the ones we see.
I tried to phrase my questions with these two possibilities in mind, and honestly didn't expect any sort of response at all. The fact that Diana was willing to engage in a personal dialog with me at all was surprising.
But my intent with the questions was to increase the probability of certain thoughts occurring to the school administration.
I didn't expect an answer, but I hope that they are at least thinking about documented ethics, proactive remedies, &c.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
What's your point? Are you a taxpayer in that district? Do you have children in those schools? I think it's perfectly reasonable for entities to have a basic policy of not discussing internal policy decisions with outsiders.
So far we've only heard what the father has chosen to say. He may be giving bad or incomplete information either on purpose or by accident.
The administration may have more facts at their disposal, but probably will discuss the case only with insiders - i.e., memebers of their own community. In effect, they're saying "you don't know the whole story, and anyway it's none of your business."
In any case, this has blown up so fast that the people with the authority to change their policy haven't had time to do so - or even fully consider the implications of doing so. The administrator responsible for answering questions has no choice but to follow the current policy. I imagine interested parents in that district are being given all the information they desire.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
No, his experience shows a society which exists with a pack-mentality, in which the weak or the individual gets eaten by the Group - we have to realise that though we know that "You don't have to fuck people over to survive", that doesn't mean we don't fuck the little people over anyways.
This phenomena isn't unique to the Educational System, nor is it unique to the present age or to the US.
What do we do to stop this trend in schools? What do we do to stop this trend in society? What do we do to stop this trend in humanity?
-f
-f
www.blackant.net
On a more serious note, school is important for learning how to deal with other people. Every home schooled person I've come across (warning! sample size of one!) has had problems interacting with people.
-- My comment is above.
seriously, though, when I was young, there were programs for gifted kids, (Enhance the Chance, SLUFFY, et alia) that took them out of the rigamarole of everyday 'skool' and gave them an opportunity to learn more interesting things. (Where do you think I learned the word "rigamarole"?) Whatever happened to these programs? If they still exist, why are they not effective? Should programs like this exist in the first place?
I say they should. Programs like this provide an intellectual gift to those kids who are unable to express themselves through, as my father says, "fo'ball", or such. Poindexters need lovin' care, too.
Geek Culture killed my dog/
and I don't think it's fair...
io hymen hymnaee io
io hymen hymnaee
Simple solution:
If you get bullied, go to the principal, and say that the bully said that he was going to shoot him. Now the bully gets suspended or sent to an "alternative school".
(That might be illegal if false - but many bullies do say "I am going to kill you" - and reporting that truthfully would be legal)
Speaking of "alternative schools", I know of at least one which is more like a prison - students are given no time between classes, are prohibited from extracurricular activities, etc.
I wonder if the one he was going to be sent to would be like that. Either way, it sucks to be sent to a school for "learning and other problems". Very likely that the education would be at a lower level, and with the onerous restrictions I mentioned above. And/or full of crime (real crime, such as severe beatings, stabbings and shootings). Very unlikely that he would escape from all of that...
We should ONLY allow a COURT OF LAW to expel or sentence a kid to "alternative" "education".
That is way too much of a restriction on the child and his right to an education for a school administrator to make. They need due process of law.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Remember who's doing the teaching here. Like I mentioned earlier, given that teachers are notoriusly underpaid, not many are going to risk their physical tush to intervene in such an incident. Even in the most optimistic case, not every teacher can get over the fear of a physical confrontation. Granted most of this can be stopped by verbal commands in the case that the students respect the system. Even so, put yourself in the shoes of a female teacher trying to break up a situation involving several larger male teenagers. Or, put yourself in the shoes of the average out of shape middle aged male teacher. There's a significant intimidation factor here. Add to that the fact that teachers aren't roaming the halls in between classes. Now add to the fact that people tend look unfavorably to non conformists, and it's no suprise that teachers aren't intervening. Not to mention that teachers are trying to pay attention a dozen things all at once.
Even though I am sympathetic to teachers in this regard, I still have to think that there's more they can do. Even if they can't break up a fight, a teacher can call security, take names, and administer other discipline. I am more than a little critical of teachers who don't have the courage to stop such incidents. Especially in nice suburban schools. They're dealing with kids who may be more aggressive, but who as a whole don't really know how to fight. You might get clocked if you step in, but I guarantee these kids are gonna stop once they who they hit. Given the example some of my teachers set by intervening in full fledged gang fights, most teachers are just wimping out just because it's easier.
From what I've seen of kids that are home schooled, you're often right, particularly if the parents are homeschooling due to religious convictions, rather than due to academic ones. However, I have also seen perfectly normal (socially speaking) kids come out of homeschooling. The trick to it seems to be activities other than academic ones.
My wife and I plan to home school our children. However, we also plan to take the kids to martial arts classes, dance, gymnastics, music, kids sports, etc. The general key to raising not just an intelligent kid but a sociable one seems to be making sure that if they're not getting socialization lessons at school, they get them elsewhere. Hopefully, this theory proves true. I have a fair bit of anecdotal evidence supporting it, based on conversations I've had with kids who were home schooled this way, as well as parents who are currently doing so.
"This is your world. These are your people. You can live for yourself today, or help build tomorrow for everyone."
I am a college freshman studying political science at my local Community College and am involved in local politics and was just elected as my school's student body president. I also knew one of the people that was killed a few months ago in the first shooting in San Deago, CA, so I understand both sides of the story. But I think we should teach our children the value and importance of due proccess and free speach. That is a bit about me just so you all know.
If you have any ideas you can e-mail me or just post under this and I will read it. Hopefully we can get some protection for our kid, friends, or ourselves.
-Grant
|grant.henninger.name|
The adoption of "zero-tolerance" speech policies (which I personally consider to be in violation of the first amendment) is taking its toll on otherwise good kids.
It used to be that a student who made a stupidly inappropriate remark was actually taught a lesson: what you said was wrong, this is why it was wrong, if you say it again you will be punished by X. With the dawning of the era which gave us the horriffic phrase "school shooting", administrations around the country have been under tremendous pressure to do something. "Take away all their rights, they're just kids, but keep my little Johnny Racist-Bigmouth safe from 'school shootings.'"
So, as more "normal" kids who screw up once are pulled from the schools, and as the complaints pile on from their suffering families, administrators might begin to see that they've been a bit heavy-handed. Perhaps point out that if your kid had simply gone off and slugged the other kid, he'd have gotten a five-day suspension for fighting. But verbally returning a threat in an already hostile situation makes him a potentinal murderer who must be expelled? Point out the inequity in their policies. Have them point out where in your school's policy it says "threatening language == expelled." Get in their faces, and don't give up. It shouldn't take a lawyer, (which simply turns off the ordinary people who make up your school board) but an outraged parent can actually make a difference.
Your first step in approaching your school board is to educate yourself on their written policies. Find out what their justification was for expulsion. Then, at the meeting, step one would be to sympathise with their position of trying to keep school safe. Next, demonstrate what you've personally done to teach Sean that murderous threats are not appropriate responses. (Perhaps have Sean demonstrate proof of completion of an "anger management course") Finally, attack the inequity of their policies. Point out that they're promoting physically violent solutions over verbal responses. Hopefully, you can get him reinstated after the next meeting.
John
John
Back in 1950 or so, my dad brought his shotgun to school. He rode to school with it across the handlebars of his bicycle. He put it in his locker for his first few classes. Then, while other students innocently entered an assembly, he walked out to his locker, got the shotgun and walked into the room where his classmates were waiting. Suddenly, without any warning to his fellow students, he strolled up to the front of the room with his gun and proceed to give a 20 minute presentation about how a shotgun worked.
I didn't say that, did I :-)
Though the idea of increasing protectiveness does explain a lot -- what you're basically saying is the tighter you close your hand, the more star systems will slip through your fingers (ha ha).
Does make sense if you think about it -- the Internet has created a culture of radical uncensorability that is in the process of destroying traditional concepts of copyright. The children of today have now had fairly general access to the net for five or six years and have discovered their own personal identities far earlier than their parents ever have.
I think this actually bodes well -- it will mean intellectual chaos in the short run, but in the long run it would appear to create a much more mature world. Things will settle down eventually, of course, but a lot of interesting stuff will come out of the ride -- seems we're already seeing the beginnings of a second sexual revolution (with people thinking with their heads instead of just their genitals this time around); who knows what will be next?
/Brian
I do not consider humanism per se to be a religion (though it has been interpreted as such); after all, "God helps those who help themselves" is as baldly humanistic a statement as you can find but it still comes from a religious background (though probably not the one you think; I believe it came from Aesop).
/Brian
Hit the send button too quickly, I fear -- I had some other comments.
The ICR is not a reliable source for scientific information. They have a reputation for intellectual dishonesty and don't even have a terribly clear definition of "creation science". No scientist takes them seriously for those reasons. (Lying for God would be the term I'd use, though "calling God a liar" is probably more accurate...)
"Faith in evolution" strikes me as being something of a tautology anyway -- faith in it to do what, keep doing what it's doing? Go look up the bit about the moths in Northern England and how their color changed with the rise of the Industrial Revolution. That's evolution, not some "march of progress" that you and yours claim that we believe it is. That's *observed* evolution. Proof enough, unless you believe in Last Tuesdayism.
/Brian
I don't really understand the way discipline works in schools today...
You ask most teachers, and I say it all the time -- the kids in middle school and high school today are one of the hardest-working, focused, and caring generations in anyone's memory. And they manage to accomplish this under one of the most paranoid, demanding climates that anyone has had to face -- I've often said that I'd love to go back to college but I would never go to high school in 2001.
I understand security. But to expel someone from school for a joke or possession of aspirin with intent to relieve pain, or to have someone arrested for something found out third hand... that's ridiculous.
I sometimes wonder how teenagers these days will grow up. With all that they can do, they have the potential to change the world the way their Baby Boomer parents couldn't; we GenXers tried to do it, but as much as we tried the Boomers called us slackers and have so far not really taken us seriously. But with the atmosphere they're put in, I'm afraid they might just get beaten down and sucked into the system... just like their parents. And that would be a tragedy.
/Brian
Now go get 'em...
--
Now it seems to me that this kid was greatly wronged. But my experience with child-parent interaction makes me wonder if he really was wronged as much as it seems. We don't know if he has had a history of violent behavior or anything like that. When you only have one side of a story, especially one like this, take it with a grain of salt.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
BullyOnline (British-based, but has some generally applicable stuff)
http://www.successunlimited.co.uk/
Safe Child Program -- Bullies
http://www.safechild.org/bullies.htm
IANAL, but maybe the Sheeleys and anyone else in a similiar situation will find the legal advice there useful.
You've missed the point completely. Whose life was really in danger in this and nearly every case of bullying?
Hint: it isn't the people doing the bullying.
Hint2: how many people were killed in Columbine/similar incidents and how many people kill themselves/get killed due to bullying? (The latter proportion is hugely more).
Hint3: Columbine was national news but suicide only makes local... at best. Its effect has thus been magnified beyond its true importance.
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"I disagree. If you consider first person shooter's as all there is to gaming today then you have a point. Unfortunately, it is an extremely large portion of the market. However, there are plenty of great games that support some degree of communication and intelligence - EverQuest, muds in general, and strategy games.
The incredibly popularity of FPSs does make me sad, though.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
This is a story about life in America's schools these days for people who are "different," who live at the mercy of jerks and cover-your-butt administrators.
I understand the problem and I feel sympathy for the father and the kid, but that last line was just too much for me. If we are going to put people in boxes and label them, we`re just as guilty as the taggers that put kids through their misery. Not knowing slashdot is not a crime, btw.
IMHO making a model out of the father and the kid of 'what essentially is wrong with the system' is A) not very empathically, let alone very intelligent in regard to the child and B) will not change anything. I know the father asked the question directly, but nonetheless the answers he will find here will be good theory but poor practice. The answer to all the social problems must be found in the attention parents/government and society devote to raising their kids, 10 or 20 years AGO. Our social economic model is becoming very child unfriendly and we have to make exceptions to laws in order to protect and sustain the natural growth and education process of our children. Any good programmer knows the raised red flag, signaling that the design of such a system is flawed. Slashdot can`t ever dream to fix that with a good tasty discussion.
If I were that father I would probably not have aired this so much, but I would also have tried to pull my son out of the system just like he did. My guess is that this kid will now be shielded from the terror inflicted on his psyche, and I`m afraid unless he learns to face and deal with his 'opponents' successfully, we won`t quickly recover from what`s happened to him. What he needs is something to excell in, and a bit of vocabulary and clues about how to cope with the pests.
If slashdot is all about free speech and free attitude, then the above statement is essentially wrong imho.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
I'm seeing more and more that geeks are starting to get accepted in highschools lately. However, it appears that his school still has some jealous bullies.
My dad told me one time when I was young, that sometimes you need to stand up for yourself and fight back. If the guys hit you, you nail them hard and fast. It should only take one fight. Even if you loose, its easier to bully someone that won't fight back. Teaching the kid martial arts would also help. I only got into one fight when I was in early high school. I did win, and was never curtailed (to my face, at least).
I'm not saying violence is always the answer, but sometimes you have to get into one fight in your life to stand up for yourself. Now-a-days, physical fights rank under "saying" sometime that is controversial (like anything about guns, presently).
The father was probably right in home schooling him, because it sounds like he has an intelligence that surpases any "special" school (probably surpases most classes in his normal high school). But the kid needs to learn how to react in social environments, which home schooled kids tend to lack. Just keep this in mind.
Wow... lots of rants in that one...
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
It seems that interpersonal relations are not the only place this school has it's head on the wrong end of the digestive system.
And, the school's website is back up! Hit 'em again! Hit 'em again! Harder! Harder!
I don't. Actually, he should have pulled his son out of the country while he was at it. If this trend continues, in a few years it'll be illegal to have an IQ higher than George W. Bush's, and then bye bye technology leadership, bye bye trillion-dollar GNP, bye bye bearable life, hello Mad Max.
I used the web form at the school district website to express my displeasure over their handling of the matter. I mentioned that I'm planning on publishing an editorial on the matter, and that I plan to comment on the notion that schools in America, MISD schools in particular, seem to punish the victims of bullying and harrasment, rather than reprimand the instigators of most school discipline problems in the first place.
/.ers are using the web form.
I recieved a response within 20 minutes. What this means is, either they are cutting and pasting the response, or not enough
I do plan to write an editorial and publish it.
The representative of the School system asked in her email where I intend to publish it so that they may copy it for their files.
*** JON KATZ *** copy your article to Diana Gulotta (dgulotta@mckinseyisd.com) as well.
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
When the other kids played soccer, I was into books. When the other boys played raunchy games, I was the outsider. When other kids threw a party I was locked out. The girls figured me to be - well, strange. And guess what: It hurt! Although I made a point of not giving a shit and continuing with my stuff and my education.
Now guess what: When I happen to stumble over some of those morons decades later, they have shitty jobs, a mediocre salary and are aparently locked into a situation which makes them fundamentally unhappy.
I for my part funded my own company, which won't make me rich, but allows me to live very well. I have a spouse who's an interesting women and with whom I live a fairly exciting life. My peers and my customers respect me and over the cause of my life I drank the finest wines and enjoyed the greatest sex. Although of course that came much later.
Your situation is different of course, and evidently you experienced gross unfairness. That hurts and it eats away on you, but! You'll get over it.
So, what do I want to tell you?
Stick to your convictions and do the right thing. Carry on, educate yourself and believe me; eventually all the laughs are on you.
If you want to mail me (remove spaces) you can do so at a l a i n at c o d a . c h
Hang in there and trust me it's worth it...
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
While there is the fact that the kid could have kept the bullying quiet for years, all it takes is a "Hey, what's going on?" once a day with your kid and the problem usually presents itself.
My Daughter was having issues at her school (obviously she's a bit younger) but we had a quiet talk with the teacher (who was clueless to the problem) and our daughter has reported that things ARE better (and so are her grades).
B
Flamebait
Serious inquiries only.
I was in the same situation most of my school life, I never fit in because I was in a schooldistrict where you looked and acted the same as everyone else or you didn't get accepted(this changed in High School by the way when i could choose my own classes, and then could choose to be with kids who were actually intelligent and wanted to learn, but in the lower 1-8 grades they seem to like to keep things mixed up, so you must become part of the lowest common denominator) Anyway, there are two ways to help the problem, both of which work pretty well: 1. Nearly every school has a Honors/gifted student program of some sort, convince the school he belongs there, and NOT with the lowest common demoninator. He will be with people of his own caliber, and perhaps even more interested in his school work. This can be hard if he is like I was, and bored with the work, and therefore only getting average grades(I didn't excel, until i was challenged I was just plain bnored and didn't care, i considered everything busy work, and yes Schools really do give more busy work to the lowest common denominator, I had a teacher as much as admit it once) He might excel, he might even fail but either way socially he will be better off. 2. This is the harder part you might agree with less. Teach him to fight, now hear me out. On almost a yearly basis someone would decide to push too far, but I Knew how to fight, although I avoided it. In the end I would stand up to them, and eventually this poor person having run out of words would try to talk with a fist instead. I never started a fight, but I always finished it, and in the end the tomenting would end for a while, usually the result of a couple black eyes, and once or twice a broken nose. usually this led to a 2-5 days suspension, but it was worth it. (Twice the administration of the school was so happy that someone had finally knocked the bully of the year down to size they didn't even suspend me, because of the other guys rep)
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
First of all, I'd send a clear, concise letter to the school, the superintendent, the mayor, the governor, local newspaper, New York Times, etc expressing your distress and disgust at the way the schools are treating your child. Don't play the victim, merely state the situation, your points, present some quotable facts, and then make it very clear that your child will be home schooled.
Do not ask for your child to be re-admitted. I can imagine the ridicule and harassment after such an event... it can only get worse.
Then, perhaps the Slashdot members can post a list below of recommended sources of information on home schooling (or any other alternative schooling methods).
If and when I have children I am seriously considering home schooling them. I got along with most people in high school, but then again, maybe I was the one harassing people. Either way, it's something I'd rather have my children avoid.
So, let's get the list started...
As someone else pointed out, hearing the school or district's (or other classmates') side of the story would be great. I think this needs to happen before we automatically assume there's an injustice here. I've done some quick searches for news in that area, but they didn't turn up anything. Can anyone share a link?
I'll pass along these semi-relevant links...
McKinney Independent School District home page.
Here are some media releases from that school district (18 months ago)... a bomb threat and, on a separate occasion, two students were arrested for pulling the fire alarm.
Interestingly, in the case of the fire alarm arrests, the school superintendent said:
Even though this situation turned out to be a hoax, we took the threat very seriously and initiated the proper precautions. Instructional time was not interrupted anywhere in MISD
No word if those students were allowed to continue at the school.
BS.
He does not leave his right to speak behind when he steps onto school property. If the quotes are accurate, he did not make a threat. Not even an implied one, to my mind.
Sounds to me like someone's teenager needs to learn to get a grip. But of course, why should he? They were already picking on this kid, and what better way to mess with someone in school than to get them suspended. For doing nothing more than cracking wise, no less.
My daughter recounted to me a story wherein she told on a classmate for breaking some inane, and the lad knocked her in the arm (a move for which he did not get in trouble, btw). And here's what I told her (and what I'd say to any kid), "you don't tell on kids for stuff that doesn't matter." Doesn't mean she deserved to get hit, but c'mon, when I was a kid we called this being a tattle-tale.
In the Katz story we're hearing about a kid who hadn't done a thing, hadn't indicated he was going to do a thing. The other kids were so afraid he was actually going to shoot them that they stood there and joked about it? And he's the one that gets suspended? Personally, I think it's sad the father pulled his son out of the district. I would have contacted the local ACLU reps. They've been winning cases on this "no tolerance" crap at a rather nice clip lately.
Frankly, kids tattling all the time is not a good trend. Next they'll be turning their parents in for this kind of nonsense. (Woo, a 1984 reference!)
I do not have a signature
But it is. I doubt anyone alive today can deny being bullied at some point. The readers of /. probably took/take more abuse than the general populace. The reason this belongs here is that concerns EVERYONE and turning a blind eye to it is stupid. I expect comments like these on message boards frequented by the dregs of the internet, but not here. One would THINK that the term nerd is at least somewhat synonymous with intelligent. Even moderately intelligent.
Ignoring actions like these only makes the next step more likely. If kids are being thrown out for things like this, then tomorrow it will be idle threats. After that will be "suspicions" of
"thoughts" of wrongdoing. In the end, the blatant disregard of human rights in public schools will be enforced by the police or even military. What we will be left with is an educational system that only caters to those adhering to the government's model of a "good human being."
Now, does the Nazi-esque comparison read loud and clear or do I need to spell it out more?
Well can you blame them? The administrators at school districts are all the ex-bullies at campuses. They work there because they have fond memories of high school, and can only identify with the bullies, not with the geeks. Pretty much what they said in Breakfast Club. Brian
Kurdt
Kurdt
I'm not anti-social. Just pro-technology.
the junior has never been in trouble of any sort, his father says, inside or out of school: never been arrested, disciplined, suspended, or even involved in a fight.
This deserves a George Carlin quote...
"Some people say, 'It's the quiet ones you've got to watch!' I say, while you're watching the quiet ones, a noisy one will fucking kill you!"
"And like that
But I figure, once I'm out the chance that the football star, fake 4.0 (no honors classes, easiest load known to man, parents are "teachers") will become anything useful are slim to none. We'll see what these people become in the future. I know at my 10-year reunion I'm going to have a nice little laugh.
When I felt down at all, I would just look around and wonder which one of these morons would be picking up my garbage in a few years...
"And like that
Teachers (and their wonderful unions) claim that they aren't paid enough to be good at what they do- the old "pay me more and I'll do good-er." But people who work 3/4 of the year and get paid 3/4 or more than a comporable job don't have much to complain about.
[Here's where we get fatalistic]
Schools will always stink because parents as a whole do not get involved, teachers and administrators are too busy feeling sorry for themselves to do their jobs effectively, and the media is too concerned with promoting the myth that schools are drug-frenzied shooting galleries.
These are the crappy schools we get because they are the crappy schools we deserve.
I am a father. I've thought about what I would do in situations like this. I have a question.
Sean was allegedly bullied and harassed until he reached the point where he "snapped" (that was hardly a snap, IMO). Now the father is talking to the school.
What was the father doing while Sean was being bullied?
Did he go to the school then? Did he report the bullying? Did he demand that the bullies (if they actually touched Sean) be charged with assault? Whatever you may think of Texas criminal justice, there are still laws against assault, you know.
Only now that Sean is in trouble does the father bring up bullying and harassment. Apparently, the father didn't think it was much of a problem for his son to be subjected to this before.
Am I the only person who wonders just how much "bullying" Sean was really subjected to?
If my son is ever put in Sean's position, I don't think I'll wait for him to "snap" before I intervene.
That's what fathers are for.
The real DunkPonch is user 215121. Everyone else is Bruce Perens.
The district specifically prohibits students from bring recording devices to campus. In fact a few students at another school (in another southern California district) brought a video camera into class to prove how awful the teachers were. They made a joint out of oregano and smoked in it the back and video taped it. They released the tape to the public just to show how they *could* have gotten away with smoking pot in class. The district had a similar rule and had the student's suspended for it. Mind you they were not suspended for smoking, but for bring and using a recording device.
Hmm, I'm not doing that justice. Here's a link. It's worth a look.
For the goat paranoid (capriphobic?), it's:_ 6_29_01 /toby_feat_6_29_01.asp
http://www.weeklystandard.com/magazine/mag
Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.
A school system responding not to the actual issue, that of school bullies, but in a knee-jerk hyper-paranoid manner.
*sigh*
I like you, Stuart. You're not like everyone else, here, at Slashdot.
It's no diferent here in Canada. I was being bullied quite a bit in junior high, but it was pre-columbine so the retaliatory things I said and did weren't concerning to the administration. In fact, despite my constant complaints to the principal about how I was being treated, nothing was ever done. People started picking fights with me in the hallways, and the administration turned a blind eye. Rumor has it that the principal even deleted their permanent records at the beginning of each school year to give them a "fresh start." I ended up having to change schools, twice, to get away from the whole bullying thing. I was homeschooled for half a year, but in all honesty that really sucks. I was bored out of my mind, and I never did any work. So I changed schools again (this is time #3) to an experimental alternative school put on by a rather ingenious physics teacher who my mom knew. The alternative teaching method really works well, since I went from being a student who gets C's and B's to an A student with honours. The only downside is that there isn't much of a social aspect to the school (no yearbook, sports teams, etc) so I've rounded up a bunch of people I've met there and started a troop of Venturer Scouts. It's a shame I only have one year left before I move away for college... we have lots of fun.
If I were Sean I wouldn't want to go back to the school anyway. I mean why would I want to go back to a place that deals with retaliation problems rather than the real issue. If Sean had been left alone and not 'driven' into such comments, this whole thing wouldn't have happened.
The School......Have they not looked at Sean's record? Are they that ignorant? Here's a kid that sounds intelligent, has never been in trouble before (in or out of school) and out of the blue something drives him towards making threatening statements. Do flags not raise at this moment? Why were no other students questioned? Don't get me wrong, the comment was extremely stupid (especially because of recent school shootings) but the punishment should fit the crime.
Lets be preventative instead of reactive.
I love the smell of Karma in the morning
schools hate bad press
Yes, schools do hate bad press... The problem is, the media in America have been reporting the school shootings of late as an 'epidemic', and people keep waiting for it to get worse. Anything the principal did to "Make the school a safer place" would be considered a Good Thing by the locals, not bad.
Unlike most injustice, this one won't be helped by publicity, because someone has to, for the love of God, think about the children!!!
When encryption is outlawed, ?o'AZ-,++o+i++##4AoA+-/-C++bI+/.+~
In most areas the schoolboard and county/local gvt are seperate. But your representitive in county/city govt, as well as the member of the school board who represents the area you live in should be getting an earful from you right now. I would begin with a phone call, and during that call request a face to face meeting with your elected representatives. School systems also recieve funding from the state and federal govts, so I would be inclined to walk up those chains too.
If you do end up home schooling i would look into the possibility of attempting to get reimbursement of school district taxes. There may be some programs in your location that provide for this.
Maybe the solution to reducing bullying and harrassment it to figure out why out why most (of course, not all) of this behavior is gone by the time individuals enter "adult" life.
Could it be because the majority of associations between adults are voluntary? Adults aren't quite herded into buildings with people they don't know, don't want to know, and don't like quite as often as kids are.
Could it be that adults aren't shielded from the consequences of their shitty behavior any where near as often as kids are?
The only thing that we learn from history is that nobody learns anything from history.
Go to college, get a job, and spend a couple years outside of high school. You'll quickly come to the realization that high school is not for learning curriculum-based concepts. It's about growing as a person.
One of the hardest parts of high school is the interaction with your peers. You know why that's probably the most important part?
Because you have to do it outside of high school, too.
Welcome to the real world, people. Sometimes you get picked on for no reason. I'd like to hear the other side of the story. Poor litle guy was picked on by his peers. Find me one person, in any high school, anywhere, who wasn't picked on at one time or another. Additionally, I find it extremely difficult to believe, even in the current state of schools, that the comment was the only reason that this guy was expelled. Congratulations to the father for pulling him out of the school and successfully side-stepping the problem instead of dealing with it.
When I was in high school, I got a fair amount of ribbing due to my geeky tendencies.
I was a gamer, too, but back then, a gamer meant something different. It meant I got together with 4-5 of my buds, and played AD&D, Traveller and Car Wars together.
So, our gaming dealt with healthy peer interactions, a group of people working together to overcome a hostile dungeon, triumph through a patron's mission, or deal with a dangerous motorcycle gang. WE learned the value of people and co-operation.
Contrast this with today's gamer, who learns little more than the value of a head shot in a first person shooter.
Also, I had a peer group, these friends I would see 5-7 times a week.We played RPG's, and we talked about life, and how much better life would get after high school.
Contrast this with today's gamers, who may join a Quake team, yet only see their teammates in person twice a year. Alienating indeed.
Here's A link to the ACLU's Student Rights Page.
If there's a castle floating upside down in the sky, then there's a castle floating upside down in the sky.
So, what have we learned here?
1) If you hate a kid because he is different, say he claimed to want to kill you. He will be expelled and nobody will check your facts. Apparently, you can shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.
2) If people beat on you, do and say nothing. Accept their abuse. If you try to stop them, you will be expelled.
3) If you want to be liked, do what everybody else likes. Difference is okay, but be different in a way that's respected.
4) Schools are full of people who want what's best for the people who are most like them. Students who need help passing through social situations are to be removed at all costs.
Oh, and the school's web page is here. You can email the administrators and let them know how you feel.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Educational systems out here in the US are slowly turning into a battle zone, so there's little wonder why words were taken so harsh, take for example this "infant" who was suspend for horseplaying with a paper gun.
IMHO little is being done to educate kids by way of showing them the dangers of their actions, suspension is not the key, as there are many students who love the idea of being suspended and not having to go to school. Instead of taking them away, more should be done, to show them what dangers weapons possess, the psychological dangers of being bullied, and bullying someone else. This sense of going to school as if it were a fashion show or sorts seems to also be a problem when it comes to teens. School is the foundation for learning, in order to get ahead in life, sure friends are great, but friends won't be around to pay the bills in the long run. The system is not there to cater to the needs of a teenager who's idea of school is a social club, it's there to teach, not to satisfy the personal needs of an individual.
Sure one can empathize with the feelings of the teen when its stated that officials are appealing to the recent tightening of rules from pressure, but can you blame the parents? You can take away one bad apple before he snaps and save your children, or you could wait until the ticking timebomb explodes... Personally I would want my kid safe. Doing this would possibly cause more harm than it would help. What should be done is, parents of both the kids should get together along with the kids to work out the differences. Parents who leave the system to "raise" their children as well as teach them, are just as much to blame as the kids are.
This surely can be attributed to parents who have little time to spend with their kids for whatever reason, work, stress, etc. More should come out of the parents of these kids, instead of the parents using the system as a scapegoat.
psychologisticallyafied
360 degrees of Karma
I think if you asked most kids today what they though about their public school, they would say they hate their classes and they don't have many friends. I was lucky enough to be sent to a very good private school growing up, and I can tell you that of all the people I know, I actually enjoyed high school more than college. College was a great time, but my best friends are still the ones I made in high school. Today's public education flat out sucks, and I don't blame Sean for being unhappy with where he was at. I offer up a 'good job!' and a 'good luck!' to his parents for deciding to home school him now as that is probably the best alternative. I have many cousins who are or were home-schooled, stayed active in extra-curricular activities, and are some of the more popular 'kids' now that they're away from home. Remember that public schools don't usually breed the 'cream of the crop' intelligence wise, so if Sean can find extra-curricular activities outside of the public school/sports arena, I'm sure he'll be much better off.
Sean's comment was foolish, his father says, especially in the post-Columbine environment where candid speech about schools is dangerous. And he isn't averse to some milder form of punishment.
Was it? Exactly what kind of recourse did he have? Perhaps the threat of physical violence is the only thing fools like that understand. In hind-sight, it was obviously a bad idea. But I'm not sure that any of us (including the school administrators) at 16-17 would have responded any differently.
"I just don't know what to do," says Patrick, who can't afford a lawyer, and who wants to protect his kid. Sheeley is aware that this kind of record could have implications for Sean down the line.
I doubt it. The records of minors are sealed. It may affect which universities he can get into, but even that's not such a big deal. And I bet there are many teachers at that school who would be willing to write letters of recommendation for him.
"...I would appreciate any suggestions as to what recourse we may have, or where we might find some help." ... Patrick Sheeley has some decisions to make and could use some help. Should he try to get Sean back into school or walk away? Should he take legal action to force due process?
Here's my suggestion. Because of an administrative screw-up when I went from the 8th to the 9th grade, I ended up being a year behind most people in math. But math was clearly my strength. So to fix the problem, a math teacher in my high school suggested that I take a trigonomitry class at a local community college at night. If I did, he agreed to skip me a year to the correct math class. This was in the 11th grade. It worked perfectly.
Looking back, I should have done things very differently in high school. My senior year was largely a waste of time. If I could do it again, I would get a GED and enter college early. Many colleges and universities don't even require a high school diploma. If I were the parent here, I would leave the school behind. Don't bother with the legal battle. It's not worth the time, money, and frustration. I think home schooling is the right idea. Then he can learn at his own pace. I'm willing to bet that he can get through all of this years work and the senior year's work by the fall semester at the local college/university. And I think graduating a year early mixed with some good SAT/ACT scores would go a long way toward impressing some universities.
On the other hand, that may not be a real necessity either. I'm 30 and make more than most vice presidents as an IT consultant. And I have a computer science degree from a generic state university.
I think he has more options than are obvious.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
When you take into account the current climate in schools, with kids being shot on an almost regular basis, there really isn't a place for comments like these. I, for one, know that if there was someone at work that I bullied a lot and they threatened to kill me, I would be worried. Is it terrible that he's getting bullied? Yes. I took a lot of that shit in elementary and middle school, and some my freshman year in high school. From then on, I was made fun of because I was smart. But none of that excuses anyone for threatening someone's life.
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.
Don't read much news, do you? When reporting an issue the reporter should get both sides of a story if possible. The school had nothing they cared to say on the matter, hence no comment. Obviously Katz said he was from /. and the secretary hadn't heard of it...A slight, subtle jab at the school for being backwards
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Anyhow, it's a great, stress-relieving hobby. Handling a gun is like driving a stick-shift; you may never need to do it, but everyone should know how.
My wife and I are planning on home schooling our children as we have no doubt that the gulag known as the U.S. public education system would utterly destroy their creativity and individuality.
But the key is to coordinate home schooling with others of similar mindset. Home schooling works best when the focus is on building a home schooling community.
What is needed is a secular home-schooling network that would help link up parents and families with others in their communities.
I was also actually webmaster of McKinney High School's website (www.mckinneyhs.com, but the district didn't want a student-controlled domain so they let it expire and one of those stupid companies bought it). Anyhoo, I am very thankful I got out of there when I did, as everything seemed to be falling apart. 1995-96 was awesome. But as the years went by things just started to suck more and more. The enforcement of 'zero tolerance' became rediculous. One day my Sr. year there was a huge rumor all over the school about 'Friday someone will bomb the school.' Everybody started asking everybody else if they are going to go that day. My reply was 'Of course I am, don't be stupid.' Friday was a sad sad day. We had, at that time, 2243 students (according to my yearbook). That Friday less than half showed. The school was in a Police state, literally. Over a dozen officers rode through the halls on bicycles all day. Bags (and band instrument cases) were searched upon entering the building, which may be normal for some districts, but not here. It was completely rediculous. But what could be done? Should they ignore the rumor? Hmm. Things were never really done right at that school. The year after I graduated I learned that many administrators left to pursue other jobs (Jim Chandler, Dr. Hunter (principal), my band director, lots more...). /. , even when I felt I really should because it was a hot topic to me. But when I saw my old school I just had to register :)
For years I hadn't posted on
-B
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