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Sealand Looking For Partners
An Anonymous Coward writes "This article says Sealand may be looking to set up additional hosting services in the future, including virtual hosting services. However, they say a partner will be required to do it. Also an interesting note: Ryan Lackey, their CTO, lives on the thing for up to three months at a time while everyone else spends two weeks on and two weeks off." Most of this is well-known information -- the shift to looking for a partner is not at all surprising given the current market.
Considering that they provide 256Kb/s of bandwidth to each customer, they obviously have a lot more than 128Kb/s total. The last time I talked to Ryan he said bandwidth was not a problem.
Yup, & the last time I talked to Bill Gates he said Win XP was a stable, robust business solution that respected established standards.
I suppose just being there sounds interesting, in the same way that being in solitary confinement sounds interesting, or just living on a mountaintop. But I'd rather just lock myself in a closet with my laptop and a bucket of halibut than live out there with rdl.
Take a look at this map of undersea cables. There looks to be plenty of telecom cables near Sealand. In fact, I'd be surprised if Sealand itself wasn't used as a waypoint for the cables laid prior to Sealand's habitation.
Nice of them to hire the homeless.
No nosy neighbors, no traffic jams, no wasted time spent looking for a parking space, free fish, swimming in summer, and best of all, the natives speak English - what's not to like about Sealand?
What's not to like?! Here's what's not to like. The place makes a US trailer park look scenic! It's a frickin' eyesore! And NO ESCAPE!!
This is kind of ridiculous. Bandwidth issues aside, the whole argument revolves around the fact that Sealand IS in fact an independent state. This is not the case... look at it and then look at other countries. How many horses are there in Sealand ? None! How many horses in the US ? A lot ... in Europe ? A lot... but - in Sealand? You guessed it. NONE. Now, I don't see a problem with people hosting there. But trying to claim it as an independent state, bearing in mind the points mentioned above, does not gel. The first sign of illegal activity, the RIAA/MPAA will put pressure on the UK goverment, and the UK will declare Sealand as within UK national waters.
Good Lord... two weeks on, two weeks off. What a *dream*! I work eight weeks on, two weeks off and am way more remote than Sealand ever dreamed of being.
Defeating a country by defeating its military in battle is one thing.
Occupying a country and actually ruling it is a whole 'nother problem. The US has a powerful Navy and Air Force, and could probably blockade any nation, defeating them be economic means. All that achieves is... well, not very much. Look at Iraq, Cuba, Libya and Serbia for examples. The US Army is built for fighting armored battles under an air superiority umbrella. I doubt the US Army at present could even seal the border with Mexico to military standards without relying on the Air Force.
That won't help you in a long drawn out invasion and occupation, even assuming there was political support for it back home. If the US could have taken possession of Cuba, they'd have done it. The fact is that winning wars isn't just about blowing stuff up, it's about strategic policy goals, and no-one has "protracted guerilla war" on their "get me re-elected" list.
Laserjet: I would get a little runabout boat and do some fishing when time permits
Have you SEEN the North Sea?
It's very cold. Fall in it and you generally die within hours. Usually they don't bother with search parties after 4 hours.
It's very wet. In addition to the billions of litres of water involved in the actual sea itself, it is almost always raining a storm out there.
It's very grey. This is not a sunny part of the world. British people go on foriegn holidays a lot for a damn good reason.
And, most importantly...
It's not very full of fish. The fish stocks are so depleted that fishing is banned for most of the year (dwindling fish stocks caused partly by industrial pollution, and party by industrial over-fishing- god only knows how the industrial fishing vessels get away with it, can you imagine industrial "hunting" of cattle?). You may think that Sealand's independence protects you from this, but I can assure you that various European naval fishing patrol vessels, manned by short-tempered teenagers operating mounted heavy artillery, will think otherwise.
This is a cold, wet, grey, industrial and environmentally shattered part of the world. The North Sea is not somewhere you go on holiday.
--
Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
Regards, Ralph.
So it's ok for this place to blame market conditions for needing to find more partners/money whatever, but for companies that file for bankrupcy and die, for them to blame market conditions for thier death is 'silly'?
Slashdot. News for nerds. Double Standards for companies we like.
"It's not like your minds are as open as the source you love..." - Me to the majority of Slashdot.
By that standard, there are very few sovereign nations, because there are very few nations that could even conceivably withstand a conventional military campaign against the United States.
Embassy.
Could I get my house declared an Embassy?
Could my Colo facility become an embassy?
Just a thought...
Ken
Sealand/Havenco are skating on thin ice. They have a great idea, but the cold reality of the situation is that all of their bandwidth comes from one place (mainland England, I belive.)
Not true. Their bandwidth is currently satellite. While they obviously have to downlink somewhere, it's pretty irrelevant where that downlink is. They have plans for fiber, but are waiting for the money to be there-what's the point of having lots of bandwidth with no customers to use it... However, the point that they are dependent on England is well taken. Trying to get supplies from France or something would be an expensive bitch. Clearly, if the UK decided to get nasty Sealand would be in for some rough waters, so to speak.
Regards,
ehintz
Where I live, in Britain, we have a variety of obscenity laws. And yet, I can go to the pub and watch all nude dancers while I drink. I can also buy hard liquor and hardcore porn from the local corner store, which is more than you can do in Oregon.
Well, in other states, you can't drink hard liquor and wathc all-nude dancers. I was under the impression (from an article in Bizarre) that all-nude dancing was illegal in Britain. Also, you can buy hardcore porn from the corner store in Oregon ( if they want to sell it).
There are restrictions on Liquor sales, but that's beside the point for this argument. We're talking about distributing pornography, not liquor. I wouldn't suggest coming to Oregon to distribute liquor.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
I seriously doubt that it would be legal in any way, shape, or form to set up a kiddie pr0n archive server in Oregon.
If you were going to set up a kiddie porn server, this is the place to come. Owning kiddie porn is not illegal on its face. Kiddie pornographers are prosecuted not because it's illegal to own kiddie porn, but because their behavior poses a threat to society. I'm telling you, it's the wild west out here.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Porn. Plenty of porn companies can afford this. If they're doing something extreme, and they're located in a dictatorial country like Australia or the US, this may be a good choice.
In the US, what is deemed obscene varies greatly from place to place. We decide what is obscene from community to community. Where I live, in Oregon, we have no obscenity laws. That's right kids, anything goes. You can watch all nude dancers and drink liquor at the same time. Hard core porn? No problem.
It seems to me that setting up a pornserver in Oregon would be a lot easier to do then to row out into the middle of the ocean to a country with dubious independent status. If Sealand started doing something worth shutting down I don't think UK would have any problem at all "invading" (based on their reputation).
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
I seem to remember there were a couple of entities trying to lay claim to being the "official" government of Sealand. If my memory serves, Sealand passports blessed by the actual owners were never for sale and are not at present.
Can anyone correct me or clarify the situation?
D
----
Porn.
Alright, now there is a new market! I haven't seen any adds for that yet:
Low Speed Porn! Come get yours today, or maybe tomorrow.
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
You don't need a dime to back it up. Make it really cheap and easy for both businesses and consumers (credit cards are a pain for both.. especially to get signed up for small businesses and people w/ bad credit) and just let them pay you to create net money for them in your db.. call them digital gift certificates or something if you like.. usable at any excepting online store and transferable between users.. charge a 1% tax and everyone will think your way better than credit cards and you'll still make a nice profit. :) I've been considering setting up my own server and trying it. I'm probably security paranoid enough to do it well. :)
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
OK, maybe it would be more realistic for me to say that Sealand may be sovereign today, but I'm not sure that its sovereignty can be sustained indefinitely.
Most countries are safe from U.S. military threats to their sovereignty, but then again the U.S. has been known to be pretty controlling in economic and cultural ways instead. In a certain sense there aren't too many truly sovereign countries in the world today, since most countries lack the ability to survive without depending on the goodwill of other nations (if not militarily, at least for economic or political reasons). The U.S., newly embarked on a four-year mission to strain the good will of the other nations of the world, seems determined to test this sovereignty principle to the utmost, though :)
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
No argument there.
It depends on whether you view that as a bad thing or not, though - if you don't believe in "copyright piracy", Sealand probably sounds like the only sane country in the world. That's not my position, but I could see how someone could feel that way.
I believe the story is that Sealand was claimed before the limit was 12 miles. As an existing country, they weren't annexed when Great Britain increased their territorial waters, any more than England would be annexed if France increased its territorial waters to 200 Km. Although if they're entirely surrounded by British waters and airspace, Her Majesty could starve them out with little impunity to make a point :)
The real test of soveriegnty remains the ultimate one: force. If someone else can control your piece of land, you're not a sovereign nation. In that regard Sealand may be sovereign in name but it really isn't in fact.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Is HavenCo looking for a business partner because the market is down right now, or is Matt looking for a "partner" because he has to spend 3 months at a time out there?
This is fake, sealand citizenship is not open to all, PRINCIPALITY-SEALAND.NET is not the real site for sealand, it is run by someone who has nothing do with sealnd, and is just trying to make money. Something like 20 people have real sealand passports, they are prince roy, his family, and some of the people involved with havenco, any others are a fake, please mod the parent post down, there is no reason to mod up a post promoting a scam
Reality has a liberal bias
Right now there's some 50 year old UNIX hippie rolling around on the floor while his co-workers scratch their heads going "I don't get it."
SealandKroft indeed.
Blech. Signatures.
If you think anything goes in Oregon, you need to travel a bit. During the time I lived there, I don't recall hearing about any live sex shows, for example, nor do I remember seeing prostitutes' calling cards by payphones.
Where I live, in Britain, we have a variety of obscenity laws. And yet, I can go to the pub and watch all nude dancers while I drink. I can also buy hard liquor and hardcore porn from the local corner store, which is more than you can do in Oregon.
HavenCo is looking for partners, not Sealand. Sealand is the 'country' HavenCo is in.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
the purpose of the place, as i see it, is to remove your data from the possibility of control by another party. while this can be b/c you are doing "bad" things it is not the only reason. this idea of "if you aren't doing anything wrong you don't have to hide" is terrifying.
Correct. The "real" website is http://www.sealandgov.com/
--
Charles E. Hill
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
You cannot ... anymore than a company can hide income and assetts by sticking them in swiss bank accounts
And santa claus really exists, right?
Actually, I heard Lackey give a talk at DefCon yesterday, and it sounds like he burns most of his free time on the internet. They've got an assload of bandwidth out there. :)
He also said that if someone gives him $5 million, he'd start laying the fiber tomorrow, but since they recently achieved profitability, they'd rather not go into debt just now. It sounds like fiber is a few years off for HavenCO to me.
-Lux
They're already slightly profitable, actually. According to Lackey at his talk at DefCON yesterday, that is. He said that they get a big chunk of their business from companies that had already gone overseas for their hosting, but had crappy service in underdeveloped countries. He also claimed that their hosting prices aren't all that steep compared to others in Europe.
The problem with little states getting on the "liberal laws" hosting business, is that little states with liberal laws can, and do, change those laws when it ceases to be in their interest.
-Lux
No more legal threats from TI or anything of the sort. Legal troubles would be quite simplified on Sealand. I'm sure it will cost a pretty penny of course.
They've already thought of that. They are covering themselves from that possibility by using the only thing more powerful than money: public relations.
Havenco is planning to host a number of sites gratis, such as "information about repressive regimes, corporate malfeasance, corrupt politicians etc". The idea is that HavenCo will try very hard to provide a net benefit to humanity. If England ever does pull the plug, there will be a lot of public outrage.
That's the theory, anyway.
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
The problem they're going to run into is that being funded by a land-based business in any country is going to subject them to some laws therein. IANAL and can't point out specifics for you, but this point was brought up before with the idea of Napster moving to Sealand, because accepting payments from the states or any other country would put them under some US laws as a business.
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
Then, they can be the nation of SealandKroft...
nowhere near 50!
That's the most insightful thing I've ever read on Slashdot. A lot (most?) of Nortel's current problems stem from exactly that - massive growth of the infrastructure without the customers to support it. IIRC, only 6% of the current fiber-optic infrastructure is actually in use. (This is from my Economics prof, from memory - we'll see how good that memory is when exams roll around in a few weeks.) There was just too much money pumped into IT, and nothing to do with it, so everybody used to upgrade their network. Now that the money's stopped flowing in, Nortel and others can't sell anymore: why would people shell out when their only using a fraction of what they've got?
Actually, HavenCo may be doomed, but SeaLand isn't the same animal. The Principality may still fail, but their fate is not completely tied to the colocation facility.
This whole Data Haven thing does bare a striking similarity to "The Crypt" in Cryptonomicon though....
Never attribute to malice what can as easily be the result of incompetence...
This is fake, sealand citizenship is not open to all, PRINCIPALITY-SEALAND.NET is not the real site for sealand, it is run by someone who has nothing do with sealnd, and is just trying to make money. Something like 20 people have real sealand passports, they are prince roy, his family, and some of the people involved with havenco, any others are a fake, please mod the parent post down, there is no reason to mod up a post promoting a scam.
-- free as in swatantryam - not soujanyam.
By real i mean officially endorsed by the government of sealand.
-- free as in swatantryam - not soujanyam.
By the government of sealand, i mean prince roy.
-- free as in swatantryam - not soujanyam.
When asked what there ccTLD was, they replied that they had not applied for one, and were not planning on it, becuase of the amount of hassle it invloved, dealing withUN, etc.. Im guessing the real reason for this, is if they tried, it would not be granted, and all it would accomplish is setting a precedent that they are not a real country.
-- free as in swatantryam - not soujanyam.
10. Can I invest in HavenCo? What is your stock ticker symbol? What is the minimum investment?
HavenCo, Ltd. is not currently a publicly traded company, nor is it listed on any stock exchange. We are currently raising our first round of funds from angel investors within the technology industry. If you are an SEC-qualified investor interested in investing at least USD 100 000, please contact our investor relations department at ir@havenco.com.
Frankly, if you had a controversial site, it seems to me that it would be a whole lot cheaper to just keep bouncing it around from country to country. Legal action takes time; domain transfers take less than 72 hours, and even most of that wouldn't be downtime. On average, 4 hours has been my experience.
But why would they? You can get colocation for a lot cheaper on the mainland, in less stringent countries. And HavenCo has already said that they won't host child pornography, no questions asked, so even HavenCo won't touch the "extreme stuff".
The crux of the problem is that HavenCo is expensive, therefore they will only attract the most controversial, well-funded and high-profile sites. The issue becomes, can you afford to have your server located at such a potential target with so many "offensive" sites in one place?
...And become a henchman? Phlueeze, I've seen what happens to poor henchmen's families. I'd like to stay away from evil plots from now on thank you very much.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
Well, I've got to say this. I may not want to live out at sea for three months at a time, but this guy has it good. He's got cheap, high-speed internet access while he's out there.
Sealand, on the other hand...if China doesn't like a dissident site there, what's to stop their navy from having a little "accident" while passing by?
Yes, I realize the place is built on a gun platform designed to withstand some serious force, but that was serious WWII force.
It just doesn't seem wise to me to put things that might become targets out in international waters if you don't have a good military backing you up.
If you want physically secure hosting, try The Bunker. This place really has barbed wire fences, blast doors, airlocks, EMP shielding, UPSs, and Diesel generators.
Considering that they provide 256Kb/s of bandwidth to each customer, they obviously have a lot more than 128Kb/s total. The last time I talked to Ryan he said bandwidth was not a problem.
Sure... Now all we need is about a billion dollars in gold bullion to back it up, and we're in business. Someone get me a corporate AmEx.
At the end of the day, they're a colo like any other and you have to evaluate them on throughput, response time, and data security. Sealand puts an emphasis on physical remoteness as an enhancement to security, but this is more of a gimmick than an actual asset.
Honestly, I would like to work at Sealand for a year or so. I think it would be quite interesting. I would get a little runabout boat and do some fishing when time permits, and browse the internet at night while drinking some scotch or whiskey and listening to the whine of all of the fans in the server room(s) and staring at the blinking lights. It would be an interesting chapter in life.
scott
Moon Macrosystems. Sun's biggest competitor.
There are already plenty like what we read in the Cryptonomicon. The only problem is, someone has to be brave enough to jump in. You'll be sure and let me know if these are worth pursuing. They sound too much like the spam I've been getting lately.
e-gold.com , goldeconomy.com, goldmoney.com
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
Doubtful that it's that easy. Plus there's that whole going to war thing that involves citizens participating. Being a citizen of only one country sort of reduces the chances of my being involved.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
"The few things that only we can do because of our physical location we'll do, and we'll do it well," says Ryan Lackey, a former MIT student who now serves as HavenCo's Chief Technical Officer.
This is the crux of HavenCo's problem. There are only currently a few customers who both need this service and can afford their steep price. It is very likely that gross income will never make this a good financial gamble, as there are so many other little states getting in on the "liberal laws" hosting business.
1Alpha7
Live to be Moderated
Step on the wrong toes, and they'll be crushed. How hard would it be to simply cut off their internet connection using a DMCA type law? Not difficult, I imagine.
Declaring sovereignty is one thing, but becoming your own nation does not automatically get or guarantee you an internet connection to neighboring countries.
I wonder how long it will be before they lay some fiber down? Maybe even a satellite dish or a microwave relay?
science is a religion
...for the info.
science is a religion
LFS. Have you built your system today?
Incidentally, Sealand is a nation destined for greatness : can you imagine, if they build a high-rise on it (*the* high-rise), they'll multiply their landmass by 50 or more :-)
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
It doesn't look all that different from Bora Bora, except it's cheaper, cooler, there's no mosquitos, you don't have to tip, and did I mention the natives speak English?
No nosy neighbors, no traffic jams, no wasted time spent looking for a parking space, free fish, swimming in summer, and best of all, the natives speak English - what's not to like about Sealand?
In most of the world, there is no such thing as a doggie bag . - Prof. Kelly Brownell
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Porn. Plenty of porn companies can afford this. If they're doing something extreme, and they're located in a dictatorial country like Australia or the US, this may be a good choice.
The real test of soveriegnty remains the ultimate one: force. If someone else can control your piece of land, you're not a sovereign nation. In that regard Sealand may be sovereign in name but it really isn't in fact.
Read the history - they've already fought a war, defeating Germany and Holland. If Sealand had only been around 60 years ago WW2 would never have happened!
Except, as I pointed out the last time we had a Sealand article on Slashdot, some random court in Britain does not have the jurisdiction to recognize nations. If I convince a traffic judge in Oklahoma not to fine me $50 for speeding because I have diplomatic immunity as the Grand Poobah of Burpistan, does that mean George W Bush has to run out and appoint an ambassador to Burpistan City? From smoking what kind of drugs would you get such a ridiculous idea?
The Foreign office stopped returning calls on the matter because they didn't feel it worth their while to play referee to a childish spat between playmates.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
Let's see, which relationship is more important to the Netherlands... that with Sealand, or, um, Britain? Sheesh.
Moot in any case since under no possible hyperbolic misapplication of geometry is the Netherlands in any physical position to grant sea access to Sealand.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
I think you meant to say "nobody has a real Sealand passport", as in, nobody has a Sealand passport that they could use as ID to get into a bar, let alone to cross a border.
We might as well argue about who has real passports for my treehouse.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
Since they are within 12 miles of their shores, Great Britain can easily come forward and claim what is rightfully theirs.
Nah...do a little research and you'll discover that in the 60's and 70's this was all worked out in the British courts. IIRC, some British citizen in a boat got too close to Sealand and the King of Sealand started shooting at him. The boater reported it to the police, who arrested (illegally) the King of Sealand for violating British laws. When he stood trial, his defence was that he was the king of a sovereign nation defending his territory and was no subject to British law. The courts pretty much agreed with im and set him free.
Again, this was back in the day before Britain claimed 12 miles of territorial water. When Britain expanded, I believe that Sealand did as well and that they share some of the same territorial waters (so that Sealand isn't boxed in).
There are some other interesting stories about a time when a German man tried to invade Sealand for his own purposes. The government of Sealand took him as a POW and the government of Germany was forced to negotiate with Sealand for his release. First the Germans tried going through Britain, but Britain washed it's hands of the matter because Sealand was a sovereign nation.
Sealand has a quite fascinating (albeit short) history.
Say "NO!" to tax money for religious groups.
The court case that the Sealand folk have trumpeted did not involve recognition but the jurisdiction of the English courts. Just because the English courts rule that the platform was outside their jurisdiction does not mean that the platform was considered 'sovereign'. Under the British Constitution that is reserved exclusively to the Crown in Parliament which effectively means the government of the day.
Man made structures are not considered to have sovereign status under UK law or indeed under any national law I am aware of. The North Sea is peppered with oil rigs. The occupation of which has no territorial consequence. Each oil rig is registered as a ship would be and national law applied accordingly.
As for the situation with France several of the Channel Islands that are under the British Crown are part of the Dutchy of Normandy and there is an Anglo/French dispute over their status since there is a large oil field in the English Channel.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
If they'd just rename the place "pr0nland" I'm sure there'd be plenty of takers.
No, I'm not planning on moving to Oregon to set up a server... however, I seriously doubt that it would be legal in any way, shape, or form to set up a kiddie pr0n archive server in Oregon. Maybe I'm just a little skeptic, but I've never heard of ANYWHERE on the planet that has *no* obscenity laws.
You can watch all nude dancers and drink liquor at the same time. Hard core porn? No problem.
Just a few miles north of you is this little country called Canada. For the most part, you can watch completely nude dancers and drink liquor, and rent hard core porn (subject still to some restrictions) anywhere. (/me dons flame retadant suit) Helps to not live in a country that seems irrevocably tied to its churches :)
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Ahh, thats right. That's not really as fast as it seems though. That's 1 board brand user or a few 56kers. Definatly NOT practical for major file hosting.
TODO: Something witty here...
of Sealand is open to all those who want it.
Irrespective of his/her origin, race and his/her religion, anyone can become a citizen of the Principality of Sealand if he is prepared to make use his/her talents to establish and boost the acceptance of an emerging state.
If you think you'd like a second (or third, or fourth...) citizenship, you can contact them at INFO@PRINCIPALITY-SEALAND.NET
An absolutely brilliant author. I caught strep and was bed-ridden for 5 days; got through most of Cryptonomicon that way. Snow Crash was the first book of his that I read, loved it. "In the beginning..." was great. Gotta love the free tanks. Interface (he co-wrote it with Stephen Bury) was just cool, and I'm currently half-way through Diamond Age, which promises to be another Steaphenson best-seller.
Nike. Just jew it.
I have heard many times on the old Napster Forums (closed now) to move Napster's servers to Sealand. Since the demise of the "pirate" Napster, I gather they're looking for other sites to derive income from.
I am puzzled to why any site would want to host in a country with questionable bandwidth, bad reputation (it's been billed as a future haven for copyright piracy becasue of the "lack" of laws) and proximity to a defginite sovereign entity (Great Britain). Since they are within 12 miles of their shores, Great Britain can easily come forward and claim what is rightfully theirs.
So far, they've managed to fly under their radar since they really haven't done much.
Other amusement parks besides Sealand should do this too! The Six Flags company, already has distributed locations, they could easily make Six Flags regional data centers.
And Disneyworld, already has the makings of Disney-East and Disney-West!
Way to go, Sealand!
"Perhaps we can get another provider's fiber feed, laid 100ft apart from the first!"...
"No, I say we build a complete second redundant data center! Over there!" (Guy points to other side of platform.)
Will you please stop postind this crap. It's people like you who spoil slashdot for the rest of us.
saru mo ki kara ochiru