The Economy of Everquest

Re:Looks like it's up by Kurt+Gray · 2001-08-17 13:48 · Score: 1, Offtopic

Time to go to bed for a week! Eeegad.

virtual economic system... by L-Train8 · 2001-08-17 13:49 · Score: 4, Insightful

Weird. Do real world economic class/social issues translate to the virtual world? I can't help but think that all he's going to find out is that the people who spend the most time playing have the richest characters, though. The Everquest market shouldn't really follow normal economic rules, because it is a constructed economic model, created to maximize game enjoyment, not reality.

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Don't forget that Friday is Hawaiian shirt day.

Re:virtual economic system... by Chester+K · 2001-08-17 14:02 · Score: 3, Insightful

Weird. Do real world economic class/social issues translate to the virtual world?

Not really. EverQuest's economy is rather different than Real World economies because there's only one original supplier, the game's NPCs, none of the goods decay or wear out with the exception of food (which can be freely summoned), and there are no taxes or such.

Unlike a Real World economy, over time, everyone in the EverQuest economy will gather more money, which leads to a strong, steady drop in the value of platinum, the currency. That's fine for a game, everyone can be a winner, but I don't know if a study of it will turn up any findings that are relevant in the real world.

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Re:virtual economic system... by rgmoore · 2001-08-17 14:05 · Score: 3, Interesting

The Everquest market shouldn't really follow normal economic rules, because it is a constructed economic model, created to maximize game enjoyment, not reality.

Well, it sounds as though that's not necessarily all that they're studying. Some of their descriptions made it sound as though they're at least partly interested in a descriptive study. They want to know what kinds of activity people are involved in, for instance. That's not necessarily hard core analytical economics, but the descriptive statistics that they get from studies like that are the grist for the mill of later, more quantitative studies.
At the same time, why should the fact that the economy is entirely artificial prevent it from behaving like the real world? The people who designed the game are obviously most familiar with the real world economy, so some of their basic assumptions are going to be framed in terms of conventional economics. Equally, if not more, important is that the players who are implementing the economy are also trained in the conventional, meat space economy. When they're thrust into an artificial economy, they're going to respond with the same general types of behavior that they'd exhibit in meat space. The exact details may be shaped by the nature of the game economy, but the assumptions made by the people involved are going to have a tremendous impact on the overall outcome.

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There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
Re:virtual economic system... by Chester+K · 2001-08-17 14:08 · Score: 2, Insightful

The people who designed the game are obviously most familiar with the real world economy, so some of their basic assumptions are going to be framed in terms of conventional economics.

Not necessarily. Due to the massively multiplayer aspect of the game, an in-game economy would have popped up no matter what, just because people want to interact and trade with each other. There aren't any economists on the EQ development team.

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NO CARRIER
Re:virtual economic system... by iorange · 2001-08-17 14:19 · Score: 1, Interesting

hmm..."Unlike a Real World economy, over time, everyone in the EverQuest economy will gather more money, which leads to a strong, steady drop in the value of platinum, the currency. That's fine for a game, everyone can be a winner, but I don't know if a study of it will turn up any findings that are relevant in the real world. "
Uhhh, remember when a bottle of Coke was a nickel? What's different?
Re:virtual economic system... by 037 · 2001-08-17 14:35 · Score: 1

The most important economic point is that in Everquest, there are things of value. If things exist, and these things have value, then the economic system is reasonable. As things stand, perhaps the people who play most have the most money, but in future the people who are richest in the real world will have the most money, because that's the way the modern economic system works.

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Everything above may well be poorly-thought out / spelled. Blame the beer, not me.
Re:virtual economic system... by TH4L35 · 2001-08-17 14:39 · Score: 1

some games are trying harder than others to simulate economic systems.

Check out Shadowbane's economics.

maybe /. is auctioning off oour sigs on eBay as we speak!

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When Thales was asked what was difficult, he said, "To know one's self." And what was easy, "To advise another."
Re:virtual economic system... by Rinikusu · 2001-08-17 15:08 · Score: 2, Insightful

Actually, not necessarily, either. Platinum is still a treasured commodity for lower levels. Why? Because it's still hard to get unless you have "uber friends" and such. Who wants to give you a loan when you're level 5 and have no way of paying it back until you're level 50? No, doesn't work that way. Not to mention that people cancel their accounts all the time, effectively destroying the platinum they may have hoarded. True enough, platinum does not play a *major* role later in the game, as it is somewhat easily obtained. Most people that I know only start "hoarding" platinum when they get a hair up their ass and want to learn a skill, like tailoring or jewelry.

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If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Re:virtual economic system... by Kierthos · 2001-08-17 15:09 · Score: 3, Interesting

The problem is, it takes resources to make that bottle of Coke. Glass or plastic and the various ingredients.

In EverQuest, if I need the resources to make something, I can either buy them, find them, kill mobs and loot their corpses for them, have a magician summon them, borrow from someone in my guild, etc. There are numerous ways to produce items without depleting resources because, there are no actual limits on what can be extracted from the 'environment' of EQ. (I.e. me and 500 other people can fish off the docks of Qeynos for weeks on end and we'll still catch little fishies.)

And because there are no resource costs associated with producing items or 'making' money, there is effectively an infinite supply. Only a small percentage gets 'recycled' by buying from NPC merchants. Trust me, after about 15th level, the only time most PCs use merchants is to either sell loot that no one else wants to buy (at a vastly lower then market value rate, which is one of the reasons no one uses the damn merchants) or to buy food and water when you don't have a pet caster to summon them for you.

Considering that I can kill mobs all day long and make money, and I suck at EQ, anyone who is good at it can make enough plat to outfit however they need.

Kierthos

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Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
Re:virtual economic system... by Kierthos · 2001-08-17 15:14 · Score: 1

Wierd thing is, I know plenty of people who have been just walking along and 'wham!' they're given 50 or 100 plat by Joe Uber-level. Or stuff. How often does something like this happen in the real world? Not often.

Because plat and some items are so easy to get for some characters, they feel no intrinsic need to keep it. I've done the same at low levels myself. If it's not worth my time to shlep back to a merchant to sell some items I can't use, I give them to other PCs. Does it screw with the 'market'? Of course not, giving away cloth armour is so small of a deal as to not even be a blip on the screen. But it is a factor. Lots of Guilds help members get stuff with no mention of recompense (other then the implied 'next week you help me get something').

But yeah, at the mid-levels, especially for non-casters, plat becomes an issue only for production skills or a nice piece of gear.

Kierthos

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Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
Re:virtual economic system... by morning · 2001-08-17 15:15 · Score: 1

I agree with this. Platinum in EQ does not really lose value, rather items do. As more of an item enter the world, it becomes worth less. When i was addicted to EQ, I would always try to sell items ASAP, before they became common and lost value, and save up platinum because it is a much more liquid currency. Rarely would someone decline to sell me an item in exchange for platinum.

P.S. If you still play EQ, sell your junk for RL cash, I made $500 in about 6 hours, thank you PayPal.
Re:virtual economic system... by swillden · 2001-08-17 16:04 · Score: 4, Insightful

Unlike a Real World economy, over time, everyone in the EverQuest economy will gather more money, which leads to a strong, steady drop in the value of platinum, the currency.
Not as much as you might think. There are outlets for plat in the game: quests, spells, trade skills, some merchant-only items and, at higher levels, access to areas of the planes all consume plat. Also, there's the fact that over time each player tends to create multiple characters, each of which has a separate bank account and inventory, which dilutes the supply of platinum and items.
In fact, in practice, platinum doesn't seem to devalue nearly as fast as the items you buy with it. The net effect is one of near constant deflation, as opposed to one of constant inflation (drop in currency value).

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Re:virtual economic system... by gnovos · 2001-08-17 16:19 · Score: 5, Insightful

only one original supplier, the game's NPCs, none of the goods decay or wear out with the exception of food (which can be freely summoned), and there are no taxes or such.

Funny thing, but all of these points are wrong. First off, there are three suppliers. The NPCs, like you said, but also there is a strong questing infrastructure and also trade skills that are very valuable. And that is only for physical things, many people also are willing to pay for spells cast in thier favor (Ressurection, speed boosts, long-distance teleports, etc.)

As for things degrading, there are both things that degrade over time (Potions, limited charge items, items that vanish on log-out), and also things that are obsoleted (either through new and better versions coming out, or through environmental changes that affect the items making them less potent). The world of Norrath is constantly changing, not just new zones and such, but even the rules of how the world works, and every time a change is made, players have to adapt and change tactics. These adaptions the players make change the types of weapons and items they will need to succeed. You also have, on rare occasions, Verant changing individual items themselves to make the less powerful (thus less desirable).

As for direct taxes, yes there are none, but there are MANY money-sinks in the world. Not only do you have to sink in a lot of items becuase of the high failure rate, you also have uneven buyback rates skewed highly in favor of the NPC merchants.

Yes over time everyone eventually makes some money, but they also lose it. I have some friends who are just now reaching level 60 (the highest in EQ) who are not finding themselves strapped for cash after buying hard to find items and spells.

It is actually a very reasonable go at building a model economy, I'm very interested to see the paper when it's done.

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"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
Re:virtual economic system... by Nicolas+MONNET · 2001-08-17 23:52 · Score: 1

"Unlike a Real World economy, over time, everyone in the EverQuest economy will gather more money, which leads to a strong, steady drop in the value of platinum, the currency."

That's not completely true. To defeat this inflation problem, the developpers have put money pit. More precisely, you have to spend a LOT of money to acquire components for high level spells.

High level trade skills (tayloring, jewelcraft) require expensive store-bought components.

A lot of quests involve turning in lots of cash as well.

With more and more players gaining high level, and gaining more money from killing NPCs, the market price of player-bought items is relatively stable.
Re:virtual economic system... by Twanfox · 2001-08-18 05:32 · Score: 1

I'm not necessarily sure how 'small' a percentage there is that gets recycled, beyond the fact that merchants, once sold things, only keep a small collection for resale. I myself have done quite a bit of this 'recycling' from merchants because people sell things of value to me (and my class, mostly) and didn't want to be bothered with finding someone like myself that wanted the items. While it's not necessarily viable to buy ALL things you own from Merchants in Everquest, it is a requirement at some point for everyone to do so.

As for being good at Everquest, that depends on what qualifies. Good could be sitting and camping a specific creature for the rare drops he has. That's a good way to make money. There's also going out and killing profitable creatures, which generally randomly have good or bad ammounts of cash on them. Considering the number of people that do this, it's hard to fit into the groove and get enough for yourself to make it worthwhile. I have a level 51st character, and I have yet to have over 1000 platinum pieces (whereas some things on the game sell for over 10k plat).

There are always uses for the cash you have to get you in a better place. The only reason people tend to get 'rich' is sort of like in real life. Getting Rich tends to be fighting some named creature, getting lucky enough to get a very rare item off him, and then being lucky enough within your group to be awarded that item. Of course, too, you have to find a buyer that's willing to pay the going price for that item, not always an easy thing when the item is valued at over 10k. Anything actually WANTED (since I have a sword valued at 11k that's rare to get rid of) tends to go for much more, or is very rare to find
Re:virtual economic system... by Twanfox · 2001-08-18 05:34 · Score: 1

Stable, til Everquest's parent company makes a patch, or changes an item to devalue it. It takes a while for the price of new items to stabilize, but yes, it does stabilize quite well. Sometimes, too, the price drops as the market gets saturated with that item.
Re:virtual economic system... by uncledrax · 2001-08-18 06:27 · Score: 1

Also, there's the fact that over time each player tends to create multiple characters, each of which has a separate bank account and inventory, which dilutes the supply of platinum and items.

Dilution would only be true if there were a near-finate amount of Platium to be had.

Since each character has the ability to tap the unlimited amount of money, the dilution factor is near-rock-bottom.

I'd say that a better source for an article on the VR-Economy would be Ultima Online, since you have people that actually make their living supply goods.. although the same Dilution factors apply, there is a more V-Consumer to V-Consumer interaction.

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----- The internet has given everyone the ability to have their voice heard equally as loud.. even if they shouldn't be
Re:virtual economic system... by Bobo+the+Space+Chimp · 2001-08-18 07:58 · Score: 1

> True enough, platinum does not play a *major*
> role later in the game,

If the number of "physical" platinum pieces was fixed, it would retain its value quite well. What you see is the actual value of a commodity whose supply has increased dramatically, with no end in sight.

If 60% of the population had five hundred pounds of platinum or gold in the banks in real life, do you think it would be worth much?

"Platinum", in EverQuest, is not a metal mined from the ground, but a paper currency of no real value that is "printed" by the government (merchants) as needed.

Therein is the flaw in these games. If there were a fixed amount of platinum (with more introduced slowly to simulate pre-industrial mining) and the merchants actually bought and sold at a "market value" (server tracks prices people will actully pay for things) then a lot of this busted economy would be cured.

It's clear EQ has no care whatsoever that low level characters get ahold of powerful items, so if you're going to have trading in "your world", then you might as well do it right.

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I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
Re:virtual economic system... by Steeltoe · 2001-08-20 02:37 · Score: 1

"Yes over time everyone eventually makes some money, but they also lose it. I have some friends who are just now reaching level 60 (the highest in EQ) who are not finding themselves strapped for cash after buying hard to find items and spells."

Buying something at a reasonable rate will not lose you anything. As long as the market holds, you will be able to sell the stuff again. This is the basics - it's called balance. You might even benefit a little from the inflation!

Yes, your argument is correct. You lose money, but the conclusion one draws from it gets screwed up. Money is just another medium of wealth, not wealth itself.

- Steeltoe

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http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/

The survey would be worth reading... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-08-17 13:49 · Score: 1, Funny

...only if people stayed in character for the interview.

Tuition prices by Gunnery+Sgt.+Hartman · 2001-08-17 13:57 · Score: 3, Funny

So this is why tuition and fees keep going up. We have to fund some dipshit's attempt to look smart.

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[ ]

well by martissimo · 2001-08-17 13:59 · Score: 2, Interesting

"Do real world economic class/social issues translate to the virtual world? "

considering that the PP (currency of EQ) is literally worth more than the "real" currencies of some countries when the PP is sold on E-bay or whatever i would have to say it sure does.

in fact someone who realy knows what they are doing can make a better living by "playing" this game then they could in some jobs the avg person is qualified for. i would suppose this would be a serious pay-raise for people in some areas frankly

Re:well by Rudeboy777 · 2001-08-17 14:08 · Score: 4, Interesting

considering that the PP (currency of EQ) is literally worth more than the "real" currencies of some countries when the PP is sold on E-bay or whatever i would have to say it sure does.

Talk about globalization! What would the American (or local) government think of people in 3rd world countries acquiring internet access and "working" earning items in Everquest and selling them online for valuable American dollars? Suddenly working for pennies in a Nike factory isn't such an appealing option. A theoretically fascinating method for getting "aid" into the hands of the people and not corrupt politicians.

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From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc
Re:well by Da+Masta · 2001-08-17 14:28 · Score: 1

What would the American (or local) government think of people in 3rd world countries acquiring internet access and "working" earning items in Everquest and selling them online for valuable American dollars? Suddenly working for pennies in a Nike factory isn't such an appealing option.

Well for one thing, wouldn't they have to subscribe to Everquest in "valuable" American dollars, or atleast the amount in local equivalents? Their profits would not be all that much more than their american counterparts doing the same, and this method is definitely no different from buying/selling any other goods and services.
Re:well by osgeek · 2001-08-17 14:34 · Score: 3, Funny

In the year 2018, all countries will move off various gold and government-issued currency standards.

The Everquest platinum piece will be the new basis for the global economy.

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Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?

A Valid Currency? by Pentagram · 2001-08-17 13:59 · Score: 3, Interesting

I wonder if there's an official definition of a currency.

Ability to earn cash in Everquest... check.
Ability to buy things in EQ... check.
Exchange rate... check, if unofficially.

Actually I'd be interested to see a graph of the exchange rate of EQ cash v dollars - which is the better long-term investment? With the impending recession it might actually be a good, (if somewhat risky!) investment to transfer your savings to EQ.

Re:A Valid Currency? by Chester+K · 2001-08-17 14:05 · Score: 2

With the impending recession it might actually be a good, (if somewhat risky!) investment to transfer your savings to EQ.

And if it doesn't work out, at least you'll finally be able to afford that uber armor you've been drooling over for the past year. Win-win situation. ;)

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NO CARRIER

twill be interesting to see by metalhed77 · 2001-08-17 14:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

iused to play 10six, another massively multiplayer game, the economy in that wasn't so realistic, maybe the problem is that there are people with more money than you have forcing you do things you wouldn't do normally because they are more powerfull than you.

*realizes he has windows install*

wait my mistake, they are the same

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Photos.

What are the economic prospects of an EQ player? by Lothar+0 · 2001-08-17 14:08 · Score: 3, Funny

Find out

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"Anonymous Coward" is for whistleblowers, not unpopular opinions.

EQ paid me 1200 USD. by minus23 · 2001-08-17 14:10 · Score: 5, Funny

After having 38 days played... (24hours times 38).. I was paid 1200 USD for my character about 9 months ago...
That isn't a very good hourly wage if you break it down... you might be better off in the 3rd world country.

(Damn 20 second reply rule has got to go)

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I am Jack's HTTP Server

Re:EQ paid me 1200 USD. by Ty · 2001-08-17 15:08 · Score: 1

You weren't working the system.
32 Days played (x 24 hours) (768 hours)
Net Income from selling platinum & items: ~$14,000
Selling my character: $1600
$15600 / 768 hours = $20+ per hour
Get your act together boy.
Re:EQ paid me 1200 USD. by Magus311X · 2001-08-17 15:09 · Score: 2

That's about $1.31 an hour. People working the fields in Nigeria probably would LOVE to have that sort of wage.

They could make $3000 a year off of that with a 45 hour work week. In countries where $500/yr is common, that's living well.
Re:EQ paid me 1200 USD. by swb · 2001-08-17 15:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

But if you had fun doing it, it's like someone gave you $1200 for having a good time.
Re:EQ paid me 1200 USD. by SnicklesTheElf · 2001-08-18 05:45 · Score: 1

I can't resist.

Initial buy: $49.99

Monthly rate: $9.89

The fact that some idiot payed twelve hundered dollars real cash for a videogame character:

Priceless

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A different kind of animal
Re:EQ paid me 1200 USD. by Ty · 2001-08-18 06:24 · Score: 1

STFU if you've never played Everquest.
You type the /played command in game and it will give you something like "32 days, 16 hours, 11 minutes".
This is a time that counts by the minute how long you've been playing, so when it says 32 days, that is in fact 32 days times 24 hours of actually playing time.
Re:EQ paid me 1200 USD. by Bobo+the+Space+Chimp · 2001-08-18 08:48 · Score: 1

Being a multimillionaire who can throw away $1200 on shit:

Priceless

You, working for The Man all your life:

Priceless, and could you bring me a coffee, pud, while you're at it thanksbye.

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I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.

Closed by mr100percent · 2001-08-17 14:16 · Score: 3, Funny

The study is CLOSED, they got all the data they need.

Whew! A few minutes after posting, too! The power of slashdot.

Re:Looks like it's up by rjamestaylor · 2001-08-17 14:24 · Score: 2

No rest for the weary! (My wife just had our second son...did that qualify as a reason to delay our delivery schedule a bit? Ha.)

This link is just for grins.

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-- @rjamestaylor on Ello

Re:Oh dear... by JohnnyBolla · 2001-08-17 14:25 · Score: 2, Funny

I'll save you 299.98 pages. They're really fucking big.

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Carpe Deez

Re:OT: Troll, you don't deserve moderator points. by mashy · 2001-08-17 14:55 · Score: 1

I don't think it really mattered what the posted story was about. It was the first story under the new slashcode and I think that makes it right on topic

What in the blue hell? by Goldberg's+Pants · 2001-08-17 14:55 · Score: 1, Offtopic

Your comment violated the postersubj compression filter. Comment aborted

.. by vbrtrmn · 2001-08-17 14:56 · Score: 1, Funny

Excuse me, that's properly pronounced EverCrack.

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it's a sig, wtf?

new feature! by iMacGuy · 2001-08-17 14:57 · Score: 1

it adds the server next to the link. goatse.cx guy is dead.

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Why won't slashdot let me change my terrible username :(

Re:new feature! by jamiemccarthy · 2001-08-17 15:07 · Score: 2

it adds the server next to the link. goatse.cx guy is dead

yupyupyup

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Jamie McCarthy
jamie.mccarthy.vg
Re:new feature! by complex · 2001-08-17 16:09 · Score: 2, Informative

public service announcement: it doesn't do it in sigs. still be wary of rogue linkers.
Re:new feature! by HD+Webdev · 2001-08-17 18:20 · Score: 1

I'm not so sure if it will always work

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This is not a dream, not a dream...we are transmitting from the year 1-9-9-9.
Re:new feature! by jamiemccarthy · 2001-08-18 00:20 · Score: 2

"it doesn't do it in sigs."

Yup I know, but thanks for the reminder, I'll drop myself a note in sourceforge.
The difficulty there is that domain tags expand text, sometimes by a lot, so the famous 120 char limit is going to start looking a lot smaller if you link to verizonreallyreallyreallysucks.com...

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Jamie McCarthy
jamie.mccarthy.vg

Everquest platinum? Bah! by Brian+Stretch · 2001-08-17 14:58 · Score: 2

I want Simoleons, dammit!

Pro baseball and EQ by iorange · 2001-08-17 14:59 · Score: 1

Slightly offtopic, sorry, but this really amused me.

Great Pay little time... by jgrumbles · 2001-08-17 15:09 · Score: 2, Interesting

Check out PlayerAuctions and see what the shit is selling for. It is awesome profit considering it takes little time to get Platinum and some boneheads never realize it so they just buy it. Of course eBay has been forced to pull all EverQuest auctions and I don't know why PlayerAuctions is still safe. On a serious side, yes, Platinum pieces are worth considerably more than any 3rd world nations currency, which shows how spoiled this country is.

Re:Great Pay little time... by jgrumbles · 2001-08-17 16:17 · Score: 1

Also note some people say its not worth the effort. I could go buy a level 60 casting class and make a consistent 40-50k a week while putting in about 30 hours a week. Thats about $450 a week of tax free income. Now this is a measly annual income for someone who can get a professional job, but in high school I had more freetime and money (and no money doesn't bring you happiness) than friends who worked their tails off. A college student could do this as well, as far as I hear any money in college is good money.

EverQuest Platinum vs. GemStone III Silver by Magus311X · 2001-08-17 15:15 · Score: 1

Based on someone's posting of $1200 for a character with 912 hours invested, that's about $1.31 an hour.

GemStone IIIs Silver coins have an 'exchange rate' of $20 per million on eBay. To earn $1.31 in GemStone III you'd need to earn 65,500 silver an hour, or equivelant (item trades), which is entirely possible, if not more.

Maybe I should spin off this guy's study and do my own. I've always wanted to be featured on Slashdot. ;)

Re:Looks like it's up by JBowz15 · 2001-08-17 15:36 · Score: 2

Darn... I was hoping one of the new features in banjo was to block this guy.

Ridiculous. by Gannoc · 2001-08-17 15:39 · Score: 3, Interesting

There is no economic model in Everquest. Items are constantly being made or found, and never destroyed.

In an economic model, cars break down, so you need to buy more. Food is consumed, so you need to go to the grocery store. You need to pay rent to live, etc. This doesn't happen in everquest. The Everquest economy, by design, is doomed. Thats a plain fact that anyone who has played the game for a reasonable amount of time realizes. The hope is that by the time the economy gets too horrible, Everquest 2 will be released.

The "economy" they're weakly trying to make some profound conclusion from is that virtual items in Everquest have real world value to some people. This may come as a shock to some people, but EVERYTHING'S value is in its perception to the person who will buy it.

How much is a sheet of paper worth? How about a piece of paper with 0.0001 dollars worth of ink on it that happens to be a sports star's signature? How about a $2.25 toy that someone spends $200 on Ebay for? Heck, what about gold? Its just a piece of metal with some moderately useful applications; but since someone out there still thinks it makes pretty things, its worth quite a bit of money.

People spend money on Everquest items because it makes them enjoy the game more by having other people spending the time earning the items for them, like a caddy on a golf course.

This isn't spiffy Cyber-Economics of the Virutal Internet Future Era. Sorry.

Re:Ridiculous. by BoredEnglishTeacher · 2001-08-17 16:09 · Score: 2, Informative

I disagree.
According to Adam Smith (famous Scottish economist) the basic unit of wealth is not subjective, it is objective. It is human labor.
Therefore, since people spend time and exert energy in order to obtain things in Everquest, those thing have every bit as much value as anything that requires wealth to obtain.

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I'll look to like if looking liking move...
Re:Ridiculous. by Gannoc · 2001-08-17 16:31 · Score: 2

Therefore, since people spend time and exert energy in order to obtain things in Everquest, those thing have every bit as much value as anything that requires wealth to obtain.
You're not disagreeing, really.
People who buy items in everquest are paying other people to get the items for them, which is what you're saying. End of story.
Since the items and money in everquest bear absolutely no relation to how items and money work in real life, its stupid to try and correspond the EQ economy to a real life one.
Don't forget, Everquest isn't one big glob, its split into servers. So you have maybe 5000 people "living" on one server, with monsters that pop up every 6-24 minutes and drop money and items that never (or very rarely) go away.
So the guy is comparing 5000 people playing an RPG to the economies of nations.
Re:Ridiculous. by DeusExLibris · 2001-08-18 02:03 · Score: 1

Actually, all three of you are wrong to some degree. Items are regularly bought, sold and traded which are the result of labor (many products in EQ are created by PCs using acquired materials and earned skills). Some spells require components that must be acquired before the spell is cast. The barter system for these items in EQ is quite evolved, as anyone who has spent more than a few hours playing the game will attest (try visiting Kelethin on any server on a Friday night and then tell me that there is no economy in EQ).

Further, items do go away regularly. Perhaps not in the no material existence sense, but people acquire items, retire characters or destroy items that they no longer need and can't sell or give away. Many items are not tradable (no-drop), and therefore are effectively "gone" once an individual has acquired that particular item.

I don't disagree that the economic rules in EQ are different than RW economies, but to claim that EQ has no economy *is* ridiculous.
Re:Ridiculous. by SEE · 2001-08-18 03:41 · Score: 2

The "labor theory of value", held by both Adam Smith and Karl Marx, is generally discredited among modern economic schools of thought, because it doesn't reflect the real world accurately.
Re:Ridiculous. by lobsterGun · 2001-08-18 05:07 · Score: 1

There is no economic model in Everquest. Items are constantly being made or found, and never destroyed.
This isn't quite true, items leave the game in two circumstances: when a player is unable to recover a corpse after they have died and when a player player quits the game.
Additionally there is the 'twink' factor. ('Twinking' is the practice of using a higher level character to equip a lower level character.) When a powerful item is obtained there is the temptation to 'twink' the item onto a lower level charater rather than introduce it to the marketplace. Since a player can have up to eight characters on a server and only play one of those characters at a time there is a potential that 7/8ths of all items simply vanish onto twink characters.
Twinkeed items aren't destroyed, they are in storage. They won't be removed from storage until a more powerful twink item is obtained. Over the long term the items are introduced into the ecomony, but the short term effect is as if the item never existed (hence was effectivly destroyed).

Nope by mlknowle · 2001-08-17 15:50 · Score: 1

Economics is, at its most basic level, the study of distributing limited resources to satisfy unlimited wants. Clearly, the resources are not limited here, so it is a whole new ballgame.

My take on Eq's economy by Lord_Pall · 2001-08-17 15:55 · Score: 3, Insightful

Couple of notes first: IAAMMORPGD(I am a MMORPG Designer), and this is just a rough overview of my take on their economy.

On the player level, you have an influx of platinum/gold/silver/copper

These come from monsters and selling items

All of the in-game currency has a "time" associated with

I'm not sure what the time invested vs. in-game platinum breaks down to, but thats your base valuation for a real world cash value

So money gets introduced, and cycles either to other players, then through shopkeepers in the form of consumables (Food, Weapons, Spells)

Or out of the game in the form of players quitting.

Couple this with a much larger influx of cash than you have leaving, and voila.. Inflation!

You can factor in characters/items/etceter in a similiar way

Character value = time invested vs. Rarity vs. Desireability of character

Same thing for items.. But once again, since there's no mechanism to destroy items, the influx of raw materials outstrips them leaving the game.
And then you get a consistent devaluation of your equipment.

It is an economy, and it does in fact connect to the outside world.. And if you actually run some numbers on it, has a fairly interesting inflationary problem..

Re:My take on Eq's economy by doubtme · 2001-08-18 18:19 · Score: 1

So what your saying is that, if I want to build an MMORPG, I need to hire Alan Greenspan to save my virtual economy?

Great. Just great.

--

There's no $$$ in 'team'...
www..--..net - for incisive, w

diablo2 economy.. by IanA · 2001-08-17 16:05 · Score: 1

i dunno about everquest, but in diablo 2 the economy is not gold pieces as the game uses (in multiplayer) but 'Stones of Jordan' or SoJs, the best and rarest rings in the game (18-24 all elemental resistance i believe). 4-5 SoJs might net a great item, mainly because they can be used to create others and are so powerful by themselves.

Conclusions? Capitalism insights evil by CrazyJim0 · 2001-08-17 16:20 · Score: 3, Funny

Dude 1, "Hey, I want to camp this golem, because it gets me more exp and lewt."

Dude 2,"Lets share."

Dude 1,"No way, I'm way higher level than you, and deserve more than you."

Dude 2,"Dude 1, I so friggin hate you."

--
God spoke to me

Re:Conclusions? Capitalism insights evil by Bobo+the+Space+Chimp · 2001-08-18 10:09 · Score: 1

Dude 1 was there first, staked his claim to an unclaimed resource.

Dude 2 either Killsteals it, i.e. uses force to claim-jump Dude 1, which is not capitalism, and is evil.

Or

Dude 2 invokes Play Nice Rules, forcing Dude 1 to share, which, again, is not capitalism, is socialism, is stealing, and is evil.

Yes, the good that is capitalism does indeed insight the evils of theft, force, and socialism.

--
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
Re:Conclusions? Capitalism insights evil by Bobo+the+Space+Chimp · 2001-08-18 10:31 · Score: 1

By the way, before any socialist apologists open their yappers, keep in mind that the higher-level Dude 2 is "richer" and "more powerful" in that world, and notice how he twists the socialist Play Nice Rules to his advantage? Cuffy Meigs, Enchanter at large.

--
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
Re:Conclusions? Capitalism insights evil by Bobo+the+Space+Chimp · 2001-08-18 10:36 · Score: 1

Oops swapped Dude 2 and Dude 1. Dude 1, regardless of wealth, gets the claim on the resource. Note that the richer Dude 1, who had claim, BTW, would "farm" it to sell the things on the open market, allowing anyone who made an "effort" at anything (via earning money) to get the items, not just those who camped for it.

--
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.

Shadowbane by MasterVidBoi · 2001-08-17 16:43 · Score: 1

In EverQuest, in which money is created without a real way to spend it (for higher level characters), the platinum's value is probably going to keep falling until the game shuts down.

Another MMORPG (damn, these things are getting too long), Shadowbane, apparently sees the light when it comes to maintaining an economy.

In short, Shadowbane is visually similar to EQ, except the focus is not on killing monsters, but on forming guilds, creating a guild town, building it up to a castle, and controlling territory. They goal is to encourage real politics between the player Nations, which, of course, will result in Guild vs. Guild combat.

If the game survives rampant PvPing, or forming one UberGuild(tm), it should be really interesting to see how different nations manage themselves, form government, and set rules for their land. Of course, encouraging trade is a good way to make lots of cash if you run a city, and a good way to do that is to keep random PvPers out of your land (by killing them, of course).

I don't have the slightest damned idea if it'll work, but it looks interesting enough that I'll try it out. The Politics, full scale wars between guilds/nations, and the economic system that actually appears to have some thought behind it are good signs.

Re:Shadowbane by Bobo+the+Space+Chimp · 2001-08-18 10:12 · Score: 1

It's 3D, it's MMORPG, and it's highly team-based.

...but is it FP, even optionally? God I so hate the 3rd persion as a forced viewpoint (even though I optionally do use it quite often.)

--
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.

Makes Sense by harlows_monkeys · 2001-08-17 16:46 · Score: 1

OK, let's see if we can put this in terms the average /. reader might better understand. Why is it cool to study the weather of Mars?

Answer: because the people who study weather don't get to do experiments ("Hey, Bob...let's bump up the rainfall in Kansas 5 cm this winter, and see if that affects tornado formation next summer"). So, it helps a lot to be able to look at different examples, like other planets.

Economics is like that. There are experimental scientists doing economics, but they generally only get to study microeconomics.

Game economies give economists a chance to look at something large, yet different from the "real world" economy. It's like looking at Martian weather.

Re:Makes Sense by Bobo+the+Space+Chimp · 2001-08-18 10:54 · Score: 1

The world is a massive experiment on all types of economies.

You get to see the results of all kinds of socialist, communist, etc. "experiments", completely devoid of any ethical considerations as to whether such laws are proper in the first place.

--
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.

Hrm. "Insightful" - Hah. by david.johns · 2001-08-17 20:26 · Score: 1

I read these comments. I see that everyone is saying why this is so awful, because there is an effectively infinite supply of blah blah blah, and things don't degrade or blah blah blah...

Digital information does not degrade. You might make a case that something like degradation does happen to digital information. I doubt that you could make a case that the same metaphor doesn't extend to Everquest objects.

Digital information can be copied with very little cost. (I say very little, because it's not exactly none - in either case. Subscriptions to Everquest, anyone?)

After all, these Everquest objects (currency or players) are software - or at least, data.

Please, mock the study of these economics the next time you buy Windows (or even pay the MS tax.) The next time you buy a CD. The next time you download Free Software.

Pay a subscription fee for Everquest, value-add, sell your character for money. Pay a subscription fee for internet access, download a linux and value-add - sell your linux for money. Maybe it should be our new economic model!

Re:Hrm. "Insightful" - Hah. by david.johns · 2001-08-17 20:29 · Score: 1

Oops. The update lost my preference for posting HTML and it made my message look like that. Sorry. ;)

And as for you preview-it flamers, I tried to preview it - and my connection timed out. I tried again, figured it was a problem, checked over my work and hit submit. Worked fine.

trade skills, research items, etc. etc. etc. by Anonymous Coward · 2001-08-18 00:06 · Score: 1, Interesting

Tink bag.. over 3Kpp... Gone
Jc.. we're talking over 40Kpp gone out of the
game reaching a skill of 220 (easily)

Smithing.. all the plat spent on materials that
gets destroyed by failures

Research items like runes, pages, words, components, etc. etc. etc.

Yes.. Items are destroyed... pp is spent to vendors for spells

LOTS of plat to vendors for spells.. all gone.

On some of the older servers... inflation hasn't come around...
Prices actually decrease because there's an abundance of items.

Only the rarest of rare items retain their inflated
value.

Chars with 1Mpp quit... it happens.

No..it's not a real world economy... but it's interesting nonetheless..

I would also say it's one of the better ever set
up, till this point in time.

Everquest is kinda messed up atm... by m0zone · 2001-08-18 02:52 · Score: 1

Everquest is a fun game i have been playing it for a while..many chars over 50 ...duping and such screwed up the item and money on alot of servers ..lvl4 ppl with full tinkers and 200,000pp and such verant cracked down but e-bayers and such are all over eq ..everquest would be a good model for not how to run a rpg on-line....

also drop rates are diff on some servers ..like drops on SZ in dalnir is diff then drop on RZ dalnir

and yes pp are worth more on e-bay then some countrys money ..sad eh?

I have 500,000pp+ on RZ its worthless at high lvls ppl want item trades :P i destoryed alot of it when i moved to SZ :)

m0zone

eq would be more fun if it wasnt full of asian cybercafe players

Ssh! by Greyfox · 2001-08-18 04:11 · Score: 3, Funny

I bet the wheels are already turning at the IRS. How long before you have to claim Everquest stuff on your 1040?

--

I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

How about Diablo II's economy? by mraymer · 2001-08-18 05:52 · Score: 1

I don't play EverQuest, so I can't really comment on it, but what about Diablo II?

I've sold a few things on eBay, and the problems I notice seem to match up with what everyone is saying here about the EQ economy.

For every time an item drops, it's value decreases, because that item becomes more commom. Playing long enough will get you rich. Everyone wins.

I found that the processing of putting items on a character created for the purpose of storing items, or "muling" helps keep the economy in check a little. It's very easy to lose items this way.

Does anyone out there play both games? I'd like to see a comparison of the economies. I wonder which one is the most realistic?

--

"To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

Re:How about Diablo II's economy? by Bobo+the+Space+Chimp · 2001-08-18 10:58 · Score: 1

They just blew away all level 1 characters again (or did they?)

Like it would be so hard for them to not blow away ones with "stuff".

They are a corporation who likes to get paid by customers, don't they?

--
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.

Economy? by Darein · 2001-08-18 08:53 · Score: 1

EverQuest has an economy? All I ever see is items traded. Plat is just about worthless. I'm not going to sell my 'Super Bad Robe of All Knowing' to some vendor for enough rations to last a week.

The failures of the EverQuest economy. by BlackTheta · 2001-08-19 09:18 · Score: 1

The EverQuest economy is, generally speaking, a failure. There is one simple reason: There are no random items. No items are unique, and the market can be flooded rather quickly. When the market floods, which doesn't take too long, all of the prices drop drastically. The solution is as simple as the cause: Implement randomly generated items. In Asheron's Call, as well as other games, items are generated randomly. Unique items exist, and they still lose value, but these random items can be unique, so there is no market flooding, and in turn, no unreasonable deflation.

Grreeaat! Now we'll have EQ sweatshops by Weasel+Boy · 2001-08-20 13:03 · Score: 1

Imagine schools full of hungry children (and their parents) in lands you've never heard of, sitting in front of old 486dx4/100's and blurry 15", 60-Hz monitors with lizards crawling on them, forced by ruthless and corrupt local party bosses to play EQ under the watchful glares of stern proctors for 16 hours per day, with only 1 potty break and 10 minutes for lunch. Their "english lessons" consisting of entreaties to other players ("your buy nice char. is my $200 at ebay"), their "math lessons" calculating the boss-man's cut in the local currency ($200 x 0.9 x 630 yb/$ = 113,400 yb).

Currency Definition by dunster · 2001-08-23 05:27 · Score: 1

From my econ book:

1) Medium of Exchange: People are willing to accept it as payment for whatever they are selling.

2) Store of Value: You can use it to buy things now or in a future time period.

3) Unit of Account: It can be used to state the price of goods.

Yep, it's a real currency, within Everquest.

Dunster
56 Paladin
Brell Serillis

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