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New Joystick Style Ergo Mouse

Mr_Perl writes "For those of us who love to use a mouse to play games, except for the wrist pain after too much of it, 3M has come up with a joystick-mouse type thing that is in my opinion very comfortable to use." I'd love to try one of these out. Not available yet tho. update my bad, it is out. Now I gotta find one.

135 comments

  1. Swear I've seen this before by Win-Developer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can't remember who made it, but I distinctly remember owning a mouse like this.

    It was mostly likely one of those really cheaply made jobbies, but if I recall it was awful experience. I never got the pinpoint accuracy I could with a regular mouse.

    1. Re:Swear I've seen this before by pheber · · Score: 1


      Yeah, these devices are old!
      They used to be called "Anir Mouse" or something, used to have a lot of those in our office (in norway). Anyway, they suck, so i reverted back to my logitech mouse..

    2. Re:Swear I've seen this before by X-Nc · · Score: 1

      I bought one of these kind of meeces 3 or 4 years ago but I can't seem to find the info or URL where I got them. It was some company that's been selling these for a while. They actually work very well once you get used to using your arm instead of your wrist. And they are far less fatiguing than a "normal" mouse. I didn't use it much because it only had the two button mouse capability with no ability to "cord" so it was useless under X. They came out with a three button version but, as I said, I can't find the company inof or a URL to go buy one. If I could I would.

      --
      --
      If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
    3. Re:Swear I've seen this before by DeadMeat+(TM) · · Score: 3, Informative
      You're right, these have been out for years.

      Suncom, a cheap peripherals company (best known for their oh-so-cheap joysticks), was selling joystick-style mice at my local department store back before when we got our first PC clone, which was in 1988. This was even years before mice were standard on computers. (That's right, Virginia, computers didn't always use mice!)

      Even back then it looked uncomfortable.

    4. Re:Swear I've seen this before by ender- · · Score: 2
      These things do exist. They sell them at MicroCenter. [Here in San Jose anyway]


      ender

    5. Re:Swear I've seen this before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, Anir Mouse sounds familiar.

      I've seen them here in Finland too, several years ago. Seems like a rebadging job. I don't think I could get used to one, though..

    6. Re:Swear I've seen this before by inkyfellow · · Score: 1

      True... I've seen these, and I don't know anyone who has ever enjoyed using them.

      I think part of that comes from that they were moved around a desk, like a mouse, rather than just shifted like a joystick.

  2. The way this is going by epsalon · · Score: 1

    Next we'll have complete dashboards with dozens of controls for gamers, copied directly from fighter jet's cockpit...
    Next thing we see cockpits will start copying their joysticks from the gaming industry...

    1. Re:The way this is going by Dimensio · · Score: 1

      I was thinking that flight consoles would be rearranged to look like gaming PC setups, so that training pilots would be easier -- just pop in your favourite flight simulator program and get 'em trained in a week. Hey, remember Star Trek: Insurrection? In the future starship controls will me manufactured by Gravis, Microsoft and Logitech. :)

      (Here's hoping that Sony can get in that market too -- I rather like their Dual Shock design)

    2. Re:The way this is going by Slarty · · Score: 1

      Next thing we see cockpits will start copying their joysticks from the gaming industry...

      I used to work at a large industrial/agricultural tractor company, and many (most?) of their new models are joystick controlled. I know for a fact that the designers *were* copying joystick designs from off-the-shelf gaming joysticks, so they could save lots of money in ergonomic design and all that. OK, it's not quite a cockpit, but still...

      --
      Hi... I'm Larry... the shivering chipmunk... brrrrr!... I'm cold... I need a sweater...
  3. This is'nt really new by Chainsaw · · Score: 5, Informative

    Anir has been manufacturing these for a while.
    http://www.animax.no/anirmousepro.html

    --
    War is one of the most horrible things a human can be exposed to. And one of the worlds largest industries.
  4. old stuff by Tharsis · · Score: 1

    A few colleagues (sp?) of mine have this thing, some love it, some loath it, what you miss most is the third mouse button.

    1. Re:old stuff by CityZen · · Score: 1
      I've been using one of these for several months now. I had been using a regular mouse for around 10 years with no problems. A couple of years after I started using a mouse with a scroll wheel, I began to have an uncomfortable numbness in my wrist. As a result, I started looking around for better mousing solutions. I tried the "No Hands Mouse" (foot-operated), but found it hard to adapt to. I didn't really like trackpads either, and the pointing stick was also less than ideal.

      I saw the Renaissance mouse and decided to give it a try. It did indeed take some getting used to, as moving it around does involve different muscles and different motions. However, it did not take very long for me to adapt to it (perhaps a week or so) and become proficient with it. And it really did eliminate the numbness problem I was having.

      The Renaissance mouse does have a middle button (sort of like a trigger for the 2nd or 3rd fingers), and I use this to scroll with. I'd recommend a utility like Coolmouse to make scrolling with one button easier, since the built-in middle-button scroll (in Windows) sucks so much.

  5. I've Seen These by Hop-Frog · · Score: 1

    Someone I worked with over the summer was using one of these, and, yes, I believe it was from 3M.

    He really loved it. He had been having a lot of pain while mousing, and it was gone.

  6. Nah... they're not that great by Bobb+Sledd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    My roommate bought one because it was different, but it's not as easy to use as you'd figure. To get an idea, try writing with a pen like you did when you were in kindergarten (thumb on top).

    Incidentally, shortly afterward, it became apparent that I tend to use my fingertips to control a regular mouse with greater precision. Perhaps you may find the same thing.

    --
    "They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
  7. Optical by ksb · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's a shame it isn't an optical mouse, I doubt I'm the only one who hates the 'jumping' effect of ball mice when they get a little dust in them.

    I would have thought smooth running would have been essential for game players

    1. Re:Optical by Dwonis · · Score: 2

      Yep, but one thing I'd like to see in optical mice is much higher sample rates. Often, when I try to "flick" my mouse around, the pointer does a little dance on the screen and ends up on the opposite side of where it should. Sigh.

    2. Re:Optical by eam · · Score: 1

      Wow. I never noticed that until I read that & tried it.

      I guess I'm a slow mouser.

    3. Re:Optical by AnarchoFreak_00 · · Score: 1
      Yep, but one thing I'd like to see in optical mice is much higher sample rates. Often, when I try to "flick" my mouse around, the pointer does a little dance on the screen and ends up on the opposite side of where it should. Sigh.

      Really? I've never had that happen with my MS Explorer mouse. Could it be your mouse? or maybe the surface it's on. I know the surface can affect optical mice quite a bit. The matter the better.

      Or maybe I just 'flick' differently.

    4. Re:Optical by Dwonis · · Score: 2

      It's a Logitech M-BD58 optical wheel mouse, and it behaves exactly the same on several surfaces. To clarify, it works fine in normal use, and even in games, but I have a 1600x1200 screen, and if I try to "slam" the mouse from one side to the other very quickly, the pointer does a loop and ends up going in the opposite direction, sort of how the wheels of moving vehicles look when sampled on TV at 25 frames/sec.

  8. Ergonomics by Diabolical · · Score: 1

    It looks like they listened to someone who studied ergonomics.. i would like one of those not just for games. In my daily work i am getting more and more stress on my wrist of my rightarm.

    Mostly because of a non-ergonomical keyboard and of course to much working using a mouse..

    So a mouse like this might help a little to relieve my wrist in daily operational work as well as my gaming evenings (strategy games are very heavy mouse controlled games..)

    But i will have to wait and see.. some of the remedies for RSI were actually contributing to the situation or creating new situations alltogether.

  9. Left Handed by Steve+Cox · · Score: 0

    Looks like a pain for those of us who are left handed.

    Steve.

    1. Re:Left Handed by stx23 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm left handed, but I was forced into using a mouse with my right hand during my time at University.
      I find it easier this way, and it has the added bonus of being able to write while using the mouse.

    2. Re:Left Handed by ebbe11 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I find it easier this way, and it has the added bonus of being able to write while using the mouse.

      I'm right handed but when I started using a mouse, a co-worker advised me to use my left hand for the mouse.

      His reasoning were that it is equally awkward whichever hand you use when you're a beginner. Moreover, you can not only write with your right hand but also use the arrow keys and the number-pad and the mouse simultaneously. And yes, I often find that I have the left hand on the mouse and the right hand on the arrow keys.

      And yes, I can use a mouse with my right hand but it works better when I use my left.

      --

      My opinion? See above.
    3. Re:Left Handed by TeknoHog · · Score: 2
      Agreed! I switched to using the left hand only after years of computing, in fact when I switched to Linux. I find it immensely powerful to have the left hand on the mouse, and the right on the arrow keys, for instance when browsing the web. I think one of the reasons I switched was the awkward feeling of holding the left hand on the arrows (right side of keyb) and the right on the mouse.

      Right now I'm using the nipple thing on my laptop, and really the only way of accessing the arrow keys at the same time is to use the left hand for the nipple.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  10. Why not optical? by Chelloveck · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I keep wondering why anyone would introduce a new high-end mouse with a ball. The new breed of track-on-any-surface opticals are far superior to anything mechanical, especially if you work in a dirty (or dusty, or cat-infested) environment.

    --
    Chelloveck
    I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
    1. Re:Why not optical? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, if it proves to be any good, you can be sure Logitech will jump on the bandwagon and make their own version, complete with optical...

    2. Re:Why not optical? by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      Well the fact that the laser usually burns out in about 2 years, and really isn't practical to replace. But I digress.

    3. Re:Why not optical? by swb · · Score: 1

      Is it a laser or is an LED? I have an IntelliMouse optical that's at least a year old and it looks like an LED on the inside to me. If its an LED, shouldn't it last "forever" (forever in computer years, 5 years in people time).

    4. Re:Why not optical? by Bishop · · Score: 2

      There are laser diodes. It is what drives fiber optics (although some simple fiber optics use regular leds). I have no idea if the mice use laser leds, boring "regular" leds, or something else.

    5. Re:Why not optical? by Loligo · · Score: 1

      >Well the fact that the laser usually burns out
      >in about 2 years, and really isn't practical to
      >replace.

      Two years of use out of a mouse I bought for 40 bucks?

      I can live with that.

      -l

    6. Re:Why not optical? by alexburke · · Score: 2

      No, they aren't laser diodes. Open it up and look at it -- it's an ultrabright red LED.

  11. Avialable for some time and is an ero product by Jambu · · Score: 3, Informative

    Huh? Not available yet? The article says available form 4th quarter 2000. My sister has been using one of these for several months, as she had to leave her cold fusion programming job 'caus of a severe autonomic nerve condition that developed from computer related RSI. she finds this 3M device to be good, in conjunction with Dragon Naturally Speaking to avoid using the keyboard.
    Its not really that joystick like though since it is the whole base that moves.
    The reason it is better for RSI is that the thumb nerves are supposed to be far less fragile

  12. Nothing new... by jankol · · Score: 0, Redundant

    My co-worker had one for several months, he got it around a year ago. I'm not sure who made it, though.

  13. Response time? by Lizard_King · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Using a mouse has several distinct advantages in gaming. One of which is a nasty little response time that can be accomplished by simply "flicking" your wrist. This becomes an invaluable skill in fast-paced, high action games (Q3). With the Renaissance Mouse, your wrist becomes immobile so the mouse movement will be dictated by moving your arm.

    I understand that immobilization the wrist will combat wrist pain, but there will be significant gaming trade-offs... Most hard core gamers I know would rather deal with wrist pain than become considerably slower at their favorite games.

    --
    "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." - Jack Nicholson
    1. Re:Response time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Certainly, but some of us never get the wrist pain. 16 hours of non-stop counter-strike didn't phase me. Now a PS2 controller....

    2. Re:Response time? by jhoffoss · · Score: 2
      I understand that immobilization the wrist will combat wrist pain

      ...but at what cost? Immobilizing the wrist and forcing you to use your entire arm translates to much more stress on your arm and back. Personally, I'd rather not screw up my wrist, then switch to this and screw up my back as well.
      --
      Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
  14. Availabity of this product by Kong+the+Medium · · Score: 2, Informative

    Why isn't it available yet, CmdrTaco? Don't you read your own linked pages ? there it says:

    Compatible with PC's, Macintosh, and iMac computers with USB ports. PC's- operate using WIN 95, 98 and NT4.0. Win 2000 available 4th quarter 2000. Macintosh/iMac/iBook-operate using Apple O/S 8.1 or higher with USB upgrades. Plug and play only, no software.

    So it should be available for more than 9 months. Also look for the Where to buy button at the bottom of the page.

    --
    ... whenever a text is transmitted, variation occurs. This is because human beings are careless, fallible, and occasiona
  15. Available in Canada... by Pyrosz · · Score: 2, Informative

    from Misco (http://www.misco.ca) for $94.95 and is available in 2 sizes.

    - No I dont work there, I just have a catalog in front of me. :)

    --

    An optimist believes we live in the best world possible; a pessimist fears this is true.
  16. Clumsy, I say by CMBurns · · Score: 0

    I surely won't buy one of those, looks rather big an what's that nonsense with "moving the whole base"? I'd prefer a more joystick-like handling, push up, cursor moves up, without moving the base.

    C. M. Burns

  17. Obviously... by sigsegv · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...only right-handed people get wrist problems or want nice mice. This has been an annoyance to me for quite a while. While I can use the mouse on the right side, it feels more comforatble for me to use it on the left. I cannot find even one nice, three button wheel mouse designed specifically for lefties and yet I find scads of nice ones for righties. I am so tired of this (admittedly minor) discrimination and it's not even just WRT mice. I see it with other products too, but mice seem to hit closest to home.

    1. Re:Obviously... by jfunk · · Score: 3, Informative

      My Logitech Mouseman Optical is very nice and light. I find it very comfortable to use and it is symmetrical, so you'd likely have the same experience as me.

      Where there's no ball or mechanical parts, the weight is very low, while not feeling 'cheap.' I also like the fact that I can use it on just about any surface, including the cushions on my couch or my pant leg. Not only are mouse pads not required, they are a hinderance as well.

    2. Re:Obviously... by Atomizer · · Score: 1

      I also have the same problem, I can use right handed mice, but prefer left. I like the MS optical mouse best so far, it's not shaped to be right handed. I also like the Intellimouse, even though it is right handed. For some reason it feels just fine either way. (Ever since I got the MS optiical USB, I just left my Intellimouse plugged in also. It's kinda cool having 2 mice, you can zoom around *very* fast with 2 hands, and now right handed people can use my computer easily too.)

      But, I think symmetrical mice is the best lefties can expect.

      One funny thing, I can't stand for the buttons to be reversed. I still like right handed style on the left side.

    3. Re:Obviously... by e4 · · Score: 1
      While we're on the subject...

      Does anybody else get frustrated with the "unbalanced" nature of most keyboard/mouse configurations? Look down at your desktop or keyboard tray. Your left hand gets half the alphabet and one or two useful keys (Tab, Esc.) Your right hand gets the other half of the alphabet, plus all the other "power" keys: Enter, Backspace, cursors, Insert, Delete, Home, End, Page Up, Page Down and the numeric keypad, not to mention the mouse. In fact, your right pinky alone seems to carry a pretty big load.

      Most keyboards these days are lightweight and have long cords, ostensibly so you can set it on your lap and type. But try it. You've either got to type off-center, or hang that number pad off the side, which makes the keyboard want to fall off the edge your lap.

      This joystick-mouse may or may not be an ergonomic improvement, but I think we've still got a lot of room for improvement. Heck, an old fashioned typewriter-style keyboard would be an improvement in a lot of ways...

      I know it's a right-handed world, but putting so much burden on the dominant hand is just asking for problems in the long run.

    4. Re:Obviously... by am+2k · · Score: 1
      I cannot find even one nice, three button wheel mouse designed specifically for lefties

      Kensington has some great mice that work for both lefties and righties.

    5. Re:Obviously... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But, I think symmetrical mice is the best lefties can expect.

      One funny thing, I can't stand for the buttons to be reversed. I still like right handed style on the left side.


      True dat. I used to use a mouse with my left hand because my right hand was better at typing. I have since learned to do most work by keyboard, so I moved back to mousing with my right hand.

      Also, gaming is very difficult for me using the mouse in the left hand. It would require a very unusual keyboard mapping, including putting the weapons out of their usual 1-9 sequence.

  18. Why move your arm at all? by BMazurek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Everyone needs to make a conscious effort to finding a mouse and mouse usage technique that minimizes the effort and stress on their body.

    How I avoid pain when using mice:

    Find a mouse that you can move with your fingers alone.

    I use the Logitech Mouseman 3-button mouse at work and at home. I grip the mouse body between my thumb and my last two fingers. Usually, my pinky is actually touching the mousepad, and my wrist is resting on the desk. As a result, the majority of my hand and arm never move.

    I can move the mouse from the bottom of the screen to the top of the screen by simply ensuring my pinky is anchored on the mousepand and flexing my thumb. And I'm usually off a straight vertical from where I started (judging by window borders) by fewer than 10 pixels.

    Finally, turn mouse acceleration/speed way up. Smaller movements yield the cross-screen movement I need.

    Finding a mouse that requires fingers only and finding the techniques to use with that shape of mouse are the keys in my mind.

    I haven't used it, but I suspect I'd really dislike this joystick mouse....way to much muscle required.

    My fingers are agile, I'll let them do the walking.

    1. Re:Why move your arm at all? by Rogerborg · · Score: 2
      • Find a mouse that you can move with your fingers alone

      Or just use a trackball and move one finger. I use one habitually (ok, ok, it's an M$ Intelliball), and absolutely love it. It's even possible to use it efficiently in FPS frag fests.

      I may even have to upgrade an an optical trackball, just for the geek cachet.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    2. Re:Why move your arm at all? by Unknown+Poltroon · · Score: 2

      Except that the finger movements stress the wrist tendons also.

      --
      All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
    3. Re:Why move your arm at all? by marcop · · Score: 2

      I only need to utilize my fingers to move an MS Intellimouse Explorer Pro if I utilize a mouse pad with built in wrist support. No arm movement at all.

      However, I can't use this setup while playing CounterStrike. Response is too slow.

    4. Re:Why move your arm at all? by jayhawk88 · · Score: 1

      Word of warning: I have that MS Optical trackball, and it really puts a strain on my right hand when FPS gaming. Maybe my hands just to small for it, but I find myself really stretching my fingers for some reason.

    5. Re:Why move your arm at all? by esper_child · · Score: 1

      This is a very good suggestion, i have been using a Logitech trackball for years and the amount of pain my wrists give me is far less that it was 4 years ago when i actually used a mouse. It took no time to get used to using the trackball.

      unfortunately for lefties out there, some of the trackballs seem to be only for righties, however switching hands for mouse work is a good idea anyways. The best ones that i have used are the logitech ones that have a ball that goes under the thumb and has a scrollwheel (I would give a model on that but my label has been worn out), these give me far less pain and troubles than those that have the ball in the middle. Works well in both X and MS windows, I just wish that MS knew what the hell a 3rd mouse button was for.

    6. Re:Why move your arm at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      because it's those small finger-based movements that cause RSI, not sweeping motions involving the entire arm. that's the first thing that many ergonomics guides say, is to turn DOWN mouse acceleration factor so that you have to move your arm MORE to cover the same distance. you can't win.

    7. Re:Why move your arm at all? by GregWebb · · Score: 2

      My real preference is for trackpads. I've got a lovely keyboard (BTC 8140M) - well, two actually, one I bought for work - with a built-in trackpad.

      To me this has the advantage of not moving my arm of a trackball - but, I'm not having to move my hand over to a new device off on one side, because I've got a pad just underneath my thumbs so can use it with them or move my hand just a few inches and use my fingers.

      I've no idea what I'd do if one of these broke and I couldn't replace it, they're just fantastic.

      --

      Greg

      (Inside a nuclear plant)
      Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!

  19. This isn't very new technology... by OverDrive33 · · Score: 1

    I remember exploring new mice when they first came out. I have handheld rollarball, 2 handed rollarball, the first touch panel mice for your PC (the ones that are on some laptops now).
    I had 2 joystick mice, one was the regular joystick size, the other was handheld joystick, one that you operated with your thumb.

    All this on my 486DX66.... :oD

  20. Not to me by Shotgun · · Score: 2

    This doesn't look comfortable at all. Movement would seem to require moving your whole arm. I haven't used one, but it looks like it would be really clunky to use.

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  21. hard to use by RussRoss · · Score: 1

    I almost bought a similar mouse a year ago (I forget who made it) but they aren't actually that nice to use. The design makes you use your whole arm to move instead of your wrist, and you lose the fine level of control that your wrist gives you. The result is that motion is pretty clumsy and inaccurate with this kind of design.

    - Russ

  22. Link to Vendor by leibnizme · · Score: 1

    As other people have said, this product has been available for quite a while. Here's one link (first four entries are the mouse from the article):

    http://www.cdw.com/shop/search/results.asp?grp=MOU

  23. This has been around since 1999! by Hates · · Score: 2, Informative


    We've had this availble in the UK since around the end of 1999! A couple of people where I work have had it and we also certainly didn't get it from 3M!

    Although it's a little weird at first and you look at it and can't imagine how it could be comfortable. It is acutally quite nice to use. But unlike a mouse which you can use standing, this is pretty useless if you doing anything but sitting.

    1. Re:This has been around since 1999! by JimStoner · · Score: 0
      They were available in Soho long before 1999.


      (The only reason I include this poor attempt at humour is that I rather like the new light it shines on the rest of the post).

  24. RenMouse by wowbagger · · Score: 3, Funny

    The mouse mentioned in the article is called "the RenMouse".

    Does anybody else feel the need to protect his new mouse with a rubber walrus protector?

    Of course, when it stops working you can always shout "YOU BLOATED SACK OF PROTOPLASM!" at it.

    I also suppose they will be bringing out the StimpyPedals as an accessory.

  25. Anir Mouse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've had a couple of these for over two years now; I like them ok. The top rocker switch is flimsy and tends to break. They were nice enought to send me a replacement, which also broke. I fixed both of them with some scrap plastic and epoxy (and a hacksaw!), and they've been fine since. I think they are better than regular mice, but my thumb still gets a little sore sometimes with heavy use. I'd like to remap the third button (on the side of the joystick part) to be the left click, but that doesn't seem to be possible with the supplied drivers. Also, my girlfriend hates it and can't get used to it.

  26. Got one. by Unknown+Poltroon · · Score: 2

    Coworkers tried it out, theyre ordering them now. ALL wrist sorness and tiredness went away. I love it. Its awkward for the first day or two till you get the hang of it, but its perfect after that.

    --
    All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
  27. not available yet? by gray+code · · Score: 1

    i know people have been saying they've seen these from other manufacturers, but i have seen this very model from 3M before. They had it at Software Etc. (or Babages, i forget which, they're owned by the same company) in the Springfield Mall in Springfield, VA. This was back in April/May.

  28. erm.. by shiva600 · · Score: 3, Funny

    ..looking at the pics, reading text phrases like "Available in two sizes - small/medium or large - for optimal ergonomic fit" and the "Vertical Grips"-bla etc., i thought you link to some kind of pr0n-Shop

    ;)

    1. Re:erm.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If this had force-feedback, it would be possible to get kinky with this.

    2. Re:erm.. by wwwillem · · Score: 1

      Had the same thoughts: why only available in two colors, I miss pink :-). And I suddenly realized where one of the 3M's is coming from, ehhh the last is for "Mouse".... But probably good for late-night surfing ;-).

      --
      Browsers shouldn't have a back button!! It's all about going forward...
  29. Not this model. by scott1853 · · Score: 2

    Looks more comfortable than a mouse but I think I'd prefer trigger buttons instead of a thumb control. It's just too awkward. Even in games, nobody maps the thumb buttons to the most actively used action control. I'd suggest that going vertically down the front of the joystick would be: trigger - scroll wheel - trigger. One control for each finger.

  30. Years old by Shanep · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'm sure 3M was making a mouse exactly like this one that was on the .au market years ago.

    Try moving your mouse around by resting your semi closed hand on it. Notice how much more effort that is required and what an uncomfortable method this would be. I don't move my mouse with my arm, I flick it around the entire screen, and have done so for more than 10 years starting with the original MS mouse (the pregnant ergo MS mouse is horrible for this though, the bump gets in the way), with three fingers moving with my wrist stationary on the mouse pad.

    This 3M joy-mouse is not even optical! I rather love my Logitech Optical Mouseman Wheel, I don't even wish it were a wireless one, as I have the mouse cable, cable-tied with enough slack in a loop, to my keyboard cable where it enters the keyboard case, this way, it never gets caught or drags on anything (on a keyboard/mouse slide drawer). It may as well be wireless, since the days of feeling the cable rub and catch on things are gone.

    I only wish it had a much higher sampling rate, so as to avoid what seems to be phasing effects that cause the opposite movement of what is done, when moved quickly and suddenly. It anoys me in Starcraft games sometimes!

    --
    War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
    1. Re:Years old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have that phasing problem also, but it only seems to affect me in direct 3d, in openGL games my mouse is quite predictable.

  31. Accuracy? by yeoua · · Score: 1

    Well, from the looks of it, it doesn't look very accurate.

    Personally, when i used a joystick, i hold it very very low to the base, so my wrist rests on the table (such as in arcade games, and such). This allows for smaller movements, though restricts larger movements, but since its a joy stick, it doesn't have larger movements.

    This stick, seems like you are pushing the mouse around with this stick... and with the button on top, it looks like your riding higher, losing the accuracy of riding lower on a normal mouse.

    It also seems that you might need to use the whole arm or part of it to move, rather than just small movements from the wrist up.

    Personally i use my Logitech Mouseman+ Wheel Ball Mouse, and i have no problems with my wrist, as i try to keep the entire arm (up to the elbows) as straight as i can.

  32. I've used one! by Sulka · · Score: 4, Informative

    And didn't like it at all! The problem is the weight of the hand rests on top of the mouse. In order to move it even on a good mousepad, you need to apply a lot of force. This makes precision clicking much harder to do than with the usual wrist-action mouse. Several other people at the same company tried it too and didn't like it.

    And that's so old tech too, it was available last year. :P

    The best mouse wristwise that I've found is the tiny small model from Logitech.

    --
    "Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
    1. Re:I've used one! by jhoffoss · · Score: 2
      I installed one of these for a secretary last week, actually; I agree with the above author completely. This was IMO awkward to use, and seemed to place a lot of strain in my shoulder and back immediately to remove the weight of my arm when trying to move the mouse precisely. This mouse also removes the use of an arm rest, because you can not maneuver it with your fingers alone, but must move your whole arm.



      The other thing that surprised me was the complete lack of weight to this. You look at it, and can see how it might be comfortable, but the base has no weight to it; the entire "mouse" is lighter than a normal M$ ps2 mouse. This, combined with the weight of your arm adding downard force to the mouse while in use, makes the mouse tend to tip or get caught easily.


      I think I'll stick to my trusty Logitech Trackman Marble FX.

      --
      Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
    2. Re:I've used one! by Mister_IQ · · Score: 1

      I love my Marble FX. (My kids think it's much easier than a mouse)

      They don't sell them anymore, though. I picked up a spare for $30 in the bargain bin at Office Depot...

      Work just provided me with a TrackMan Marble Wheel, and I'm quite fond of it, too. The only thing you have to move to do /anything/ is the tip of your thumb.

    3. Re:I've used one! by jhoffoss · · Score: 2

      Gawd I wish I'd have purchased a second one...I used an older version of the regular Logitech trackball; my thumb hurt after five minutes of use, (granted I use a rediculously high screen rez) even when sensitivity was set to it's highest.

      The new Marble FX looks kinda cool, and I just saw it's now a cordless version, which would be nice for reclining (just set it on your thigh and mouse til the cows come home!) but I dunno if it can live up to my current trackball...guess I'll have to see when this one dies.

      --
      Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
  33. Best mouse by steveo777 · · Score: 1
    The best mouse I've ever used is by Logitech. It's their wheelman cordless that comes with their cordless ergo keyboard. It fits the hand perfectly. Yeah, you have to move your wrist around, but I've never experianced pain with it.

    Worst mouse ever? Microsoft's intellimouse. I'd rather use a Mac mouse (okay, maybe not from the imacs).

    --
    This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
  34. not that new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They've had these for quite a while... not that new i don't think... but i guess they'd be fun to try at least...

  35. This is not news at all. by EGNi · · Score: 1

    I tried a similar mouse at least 2 years ago, but didn't like it.

  36. They are out by TraccerWW · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've used on of those made by 3M. a few users at our site are using them as we speak. As I couldnt stand it and have to bring my own mouse with me everytime I go to work on one of those system. I'm not sure how many ppl will like it.. Very hard to get used it.. and took some of our users a very long time. but one you go there.. you'll never beable to go back.. kinda like Mico$oft if you ask me.

  37. support by sewagemaster · · Score: 1

    PC's- operate using WIN 95, 98 and NT4.0. Win 2000 available 4th quarter 2000.

    2000?

    no linux?

    well people eventually get things working under linux anyway... (just add 2 more quarters...)

    1. Re:support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They mentioned not bundling any software. I suspect it conforms to the USB HID (human input device?) standard for pointer/keyboardish peripherals, and will Just Work under GNU/Linux with USB input support.

  38. Not gonna work for gaming though by Leiffi · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Can't see how that's gonna work for gaming, moving your whole arm is much less accurate and slower than just twitching your wrist and fingers alittle, of course I'm talking about Q3 and CS, where speed and accuracy is everything... well I actually wouldn't recomend that thing for any games I can think of atm, if they make a vibrating version you can allways give it to your gf when you go away for the weekend though :P

    What's all the fuss about? Turkeys? They're just fat bastard chickens!

    1. Re:Not gonna work for gaming though by esper_child · · Score: 1

      Trackballs work great for gaming, much better than this looks like it would. Plus if you don't like the way this mouse works why don't you just play with the settings or get a USB mouse that you just plug in for games. I wonder if i can use my tablet for controlling UT.

  39. trackball by gurulegend · · Score: 1

    get a trackball if you are worried about RSI

  40. Not new and not great by slasho81 · · Score: 1

    These mice are sold over here for years now. They are quite different and not really comfortable to use as it might seems. I think the best way to describe the discomfort is: It's like trying to play a flight simulator with a mouse.

  41. They rock (for me anyway) by jwm · · Score: 1

    I got one when I was having problems with wrist pain at work in '99, and it worked a treat. My one was branded as an 'Anir'; I gather 3M are marketing them now, hence the appearence of being 'new'.

    While a lot of so called RSI symptoms are typically stress related (and I've experienced plenty of that) I was finding that moving my wrist left and right on an ordinary mouse eventually became fatiguing and painful. I never do that with this mouse, and I use my thumb for left and right clicking, which is also good. So good in fact, that when I started using a regular mouse on my home machine, the pain came back, so I got one for home, too.

    The good stuff:

    - It's fairly easy to get use to. I have no patience, even for MS natural keyboards, but I was into this mouse in a few hours. Your bandwidth may vary...

    - They come in left and right versions in a few different sizes.

    - All three buttons work in X :-). I use 'MouseMan' and Emulate3Buttons.

    Cavaets:

    - No roller button thingy. Never used one anyway, but they're pretty cool and I'd like one.

    - No wireless optical. I can dream, can't I? :-)

    - They're not too good to use if you're standing. I use a regular mouse when I'm noodling around with playlists at parties.

    - They're not too good for gaming, but only because the mounting that holds the left/right mouse buttons can break under abuse. In my case this was a particularly, uh, 'exciting' moment playing Theif. I fixed it with 24hour araldite and a bit of metal tube from a hobby store, but it's never been quite the same since. Being 'ergonomic' it cost me 5 times as much as a regular one, so I'm reluctant to throw it out and get a new one just yet :-)

    Overall, it's definitely the least worst piece of ergonomic equipment I've bought.

  42. what's this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    *puts on pr0n goggles*.. eww! that looks gross! where'dja get that, from smutsticks dot com or what? yeah, this isn't the first time someone comes up with an exciting new toy and names it innocently like "shampoo bottle" or "electric massager". oh, it's ergonomical allright.. or should I say organomical?

  43. Microsoft Intellimouse Optical by usermilk · · Score: 1
    I use one of these on my home computer, it is ambidexturous (sp?) and I love it. It isn't too expensive either.

    Microsoft Intellimouse Optical

  44. Review by izzlazz · · Score: 3, Informative

    HardwareZone did a review of this a couple of days ago. They weren't too happy about it.

  45. Too slow for most gaming by gregor_b_dramkin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Their study states "There was, however, a slight difference in movement times with the new design about 16 hundredths of a second slower. "

    160 ms! Slight?

    I just tested my stimulus-response time (visual cue until key press). In ten trials, my average reaction time was 261 ms. That 160 ms represents a very dramatic slowdown.

    I doubt my r/t is very special. I imagine a die-hard gamer would be faster than me, either through training or innate ability.

    If this mouse-stick really makes the user 160ms slower, it will be way too slow for many types of games, regardless of any ergonomic benefits it may have.

    --
    You can never equivocate too much.
  46. pointing devices by mister+sticky · · Score: 1

    There's litterally hundreds of pointing-type devices out there, many to reduce repetitive stress injuries.

    However, what I think would be REALLY nice is not to use your hands for pointing at all, but what you're already pointing at your target with: your eyes.

    I've seen on T.V. already examples of how one's eye movements can be tracked on a screen (usually done for marketing research in comercials, to track what a viewer responds to). Now, if you could incorporate this into a monitor somehow, instead of dragging the pointer across the screen using your hand, simply look where you want, then use some other method, say speech, to control clicking.

    This would be really nice, especially in say, games. ahh the headshots... :)

    IAN

  47. Gravis MouseStick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe that what many of us may be remebering is teh gravis mousestick for the Macintosh. If not, how is this different, other than the obvious PC support?

  48. Bah by JediTrainer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Why buy this when there's a hacking solution to the problem? I thought of this years ago.

    Case in point: I was suffering from a case of RSI some years ago (before I figured out how the height of my chair and mousepad affected my wrists). My wrists were killing me every time I reached for the mouse.

    The solution? A 50-line program written in C that (in Windows, sorry - my OS of choice at the time) polled my joystick, and translated its commands to the mouse pointer. Button 1 became 'click'. Button 2 became the left mouse button, and I linked Button 3 to 'double click'. Took me about an hour to whip up the program, and then I used it for about a month before my injury subsided and I was able to buy a better chair and adjust my desk height properly. It worked well, and it didn't cost me anything other than a smidge of time.

    It made everything feel like a video game, though, so that was a bit weird. I've probably still got the program in my archives, but I'm at work and the file's at home somewhere.

    --

    You can accomplish anything you set your mind to. The impossible just takes a little longer.
  49. My shoulder hurts! by simetra · · Score: 1

    My right shoulder hurts from mouse use. Does anyone know of a good way to cure this?
    Thanks.

    --

    "Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
    1. Re:My shoulder hurts! by Eccles · · Score: 1

      My right shoulder hurts from mouse use. Does anyone know of a good way to cure this?

      Use the mouse with your left hand?

      Seriously, when might right arm was in a sling, I switched the mouse to the left side and got pretty comfortable with it in short order. Add a USB mouse and you can have two mice, and switch between them.

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    2. Re:My shoulder hurts! by alienmole · · Score: 2, Insightful

      From my own experience, I found I had shoulder trouble when I was in a really bad ergonomic situation (not directly under my control) and just about everything was wrong. If your forearm is pointing outward when using your mouse, that's bad. If your forearm is tilted upward, that's also bad. Inward and downward (or at least more or less level) is better, I think, although consult an ergonomic guide for expert advice. An armrest that you can actually use, i.e. that's the right height and fit, should also help, since I think part of the problem is simply supporting the weight of your arm.

  50. wrist pains from the MOUSE??? by theDEFT · · Score: 0

    I think we all know what that wrist pain is realllllllllly from

  51. Used this with WIN 3.1 by doublem · · Score: 2

    Anyone else remember the Windows 3.1 software that let you use a joystick as a mouse?

    How is this different?

    --
    "Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
    1. Re:Used this with WIN 3.1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RTFA. Joysticks tilt instead of rolling around on a mouse ball.

  52. not new, but usefull anyways by SlashDread · · Score: 1

    I have seen these before made by logitech at an assurence firm. People there knew about RSI claims ;-)

    It is in essence a frozen in one position joystick, with a regular mouseball below.

    It was used by an employee to relieve stress from the wrist joint as it required movement of the _arm_ joints (elbow and/or shoulder) to move the whole thing.

    He claimed it did not slow him down, or was less precise then regular mouses, although I would not want to play Counterstrike with it. I do believe his claims for less wrist pain.

    fwiw

    Reg /Dread

  53. pain! by tplayford · · Score: 1

    Personally I don't get any wrist pain from using a mouse, and I have the pointlessly heavy Intellimouse explorer!

    I would have thought that keeping your hand in the air would cause more overall arm pain?

  54. Old Mouse by Putz19 · · Score: 1

    I worked with CAD users and when I upgraded there machines many had this mouse and did not want the SUN mouse that came with the new machines.. Not sure who made them though

    --
    CS majors, we are the geeks that run it all. Without us things die.
  55. Whatever works, depends on user. by A_Non_Moose · · Score: 1

    I recall a lab one time that had a computer or two that had handicapped access (Colo. State Univ) computers.

    For people with fine motor skill impairments (various reasons, MS being one of them...multiple sclerosis, not microsoft) there was a similar setup to what was described above. A thrustmaster joystick was setup (they have the best scripting s/w joystick wise because it "emulates keyboard inputs".
    To whatever mouse/key clicks were used most.

    you have to realize this is best that a TM joystick was used because you can control the "dead zone" and the movement requires some force (compared to average sticks..sidewinder et al).

    A buddy of mine's wife bought him one (flight-sim-aholic dude) and he commented that "it was a really 'stiff stick'...but what do you expect from a company called "Thrust Master"?".

    Heh, still cracks me up.

    Moose

    --
    Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
  56. Here's a URL where you can buy it in the USA. by Ron+Harwood · · Score: 2

    You can get it at microwarehouse...

    So, yes, it is shipping now... contrary to popular belief...

  57. Good? They're Grrrreat!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    What I really love about this mouse/joystick is that my high anal dexterity allows me to both browse for porn and use it as a dildo at the same time.

    Yours,

    Jon Katz

  58. Yeah, right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Comfortable for only *right-handed* people!!!!

  59. Gravis? by pcardoso · · Score: 1

    I remember that Gravis had a joystick mouse a bit like this a few years ago.

    Speaking of gravis, I still have my original gamepad sitting next to my box. Don't use it much now, but it's cool to have a gamepad for a pc developed when the best had to play was cga/ega games. Still, Commander Keen was cool... I'll try to check those old floppies and play it again.

  60. Been around for ages! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These have been around for ages, check out:

    http://www.backcare.co.uk/browse/ErgOffDeskProd/Mi ce

  61. new design by g-string · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have tried it, its just a new flavor in the same old tired mouse design.
    I have a few different mice, If I use one for a long time I start getting sick of it. Maybe the shape isn't quite right? but its this way with all my mice plain and ergo!

    No 2 people's hands are the same right? Your hand is always moving, when you lock it into a certain position it will always feel uncomfortable after a while.
    I am wondering, is there an adjustable mouse out there. One that you can move and tweek to your liking. I think this would be a really interesting device.

    2 cents are better than no sense.

  62. better mouse that is available... by burris · · Score: 2
    I've been using the ProPoint mouse and it requires zero wrist movement to operate. You can hold it in any position that is comfortable and it works just as well with either hand. The only problem is that it's ps/2 so you need an adapter to get it to work on a computer that lacks vestigial ports.


    Combine with a pair of one-handed keyboards like the BAT and you are well on your way to increased productivity with vastly lower stress on your wrists and arms.


    Burris

  63. Old stuff by xath · · Score: 1

    One must wonder if stuff like this is designed to get rid of all the old non-optical mouse equipment lying around in the warehouse.

  64. I've used several by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    My in-law works for 3M (and hence I'm posting this as AC) and has brought home several test models of the new mouse. So I've used the new mouse on both Mac and PC.

    It's not bad. Sure, it's something to get used to. Your hand has essentially been trained to move a mouse in the same plane as the palm of your hand, and in this case you are moving the mouse at 90 degrees to what your hand thinks is natural. Give it some time, and in about 15 minutes I was quite at ease with the new mouse. You stop noticing it.

    Yes, you can sometimes have trouble moving the mouse if you allow your hand to press hard down against the "bottom" of the "joystick". If you do that, the mouse will stick some and is hard to move. But that would be the same with a conventional mouse if you pressed down really hard. Most people use a conventional mouse with the ball of their hand on the tabletop, and they move the mouse with their fingertips (not a lot of downward pressure there.) The key here is that you have to re-learn how to move the mouse.

    My biggest adjustment to the new mouse was not trying to break the thing in half. The first thing that went through my mind when I gripped it was "joystick.. I should be able to tilt it to move things." So in the first 5 minutes in using the vertical design, I almost snapped the handle off because I was trying to "bank" the handle to move the mouse. When instead I should have just moved the mouse.

  65. Re:This CRAP! is'nt really new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, I managed to break one of those back in 1996, the handle suddenly popped off. Not a huge loss, I always hated that thing anyway. Just couldn't get used to having to use my entire arm to move the mouse pointer. Looks kinda cool, but it is a really bad idea :-(

  66. ...strange thing... by NWprobe · · Score: 1

    This type of mouse has been on the market for quite some time time now. Stangely, I have only seen women using these and women say these mouses are a lot more comfortable to use.

    This is however what I've observed. Have anyone else observed this???

    --
    #find /dev/brain find: no such file or directory
  67. They've been around for years... by cutecub · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is news? The Anir Vertical Mouse has been around for years.

    I own both both a Mac version and a PC version and they now have a USB version available. They come in 3 sizes for both left and right-handed people.

    My experience has been that it Really does help with carpal tunnel problems. However it requires that your desk be at the proper height - otherwise you end up trasferring some of the strain to your shoulder.

    My experience is that it is a bit more difficult to use on the PC than the Mac due to the PC's lack of speed sensitivity. Likewise, the vertical mouse is not the greatest for Gaming.

    Nevertheless, its a great alternative to living with a painful disability.

  68. I used this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I used one of these this summer at work. It was, in fact, from 3m, and it was called the Renaissance mouse. Dude, the things sucks. It tips forward when you move forward quickly, and it is very awkward, your elbows start to hurt at the end of the day because you cant rest your arm on anything. You have to have your whole right arm in the air everytime you use it.

  69. U can by it at ELFA.se by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    here is the url:http://www.elfa.se/elfa/produkter/se/20/201936 2.htm

  70. CmdrTaco lives in a bubble by Evil+MarNuke · · Score: 1

    A guy from work had one of these last year, and now mr bubble boy thinks it's something new?! /. slowly getting closer to top of the list of Lamest Sites.

    --
    The journey is better then the end.
  71. Mouse ? Joystick ? or a Sex Tool ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    By looking at the picture, it seems that
    this joystick can be used for all these 3 purposes
    (at the same time) :-)

  72. You're an idiot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're an idiot. These things have been out for ages. Why can't slashdot get thier shit together and find REAL news?

  73. Ow... by DennyK · · Score: 2

    That mouse looks painful to use...

    I play a lot of games in my spare time. My favorites are NASCAR Heat and various FPS mods. Being poor, I have no steering wheel, so I use a Sidewider Precision Pro for Heat, and I use my trusty Kensington optical mouse for FPS. I can tell you that, after playing Heat for two hours with a Sidewinder, my hand, wrist, and arm hurt a *hell* of a lot worse than they do after two hours of Quake or UT. Most of the strain comes from keeping my arm elevated instead of being able to rest my wrist on the desk and my elbow on the arm of my chair.

    I know I'll develop carpal tunnel syndrome eventually, but I'll live with it. I live, work, and breate computers and don't plan to give it up anytime soon, so I guess it's a small price to pay for all the enjoyment I get out of them.

    I do have one possible advantage over most other users I know...my odd method of typing. I never learned to touch type. I type with my hands elevated and first two finger joints held vertically, and use a lot more arm and wrist motion while typing than touch typers do. I primarily use my middle fingers to hit keys, though sometimes I use my left index finger when it is convinient. I do type without looking at the keyboard and can average 40-50 WPM, BTW...not bad for just using three fingers. ;) Still, I think I might be better off than many touch typers who are often straining their fingers to reach the keys. I know I can type for several hours at a time with no noticeable discomfort. Mousing is what causes me the most trouble, and it's usually pretty minor and comes after many hours of computer use.

    DennyK

  74. It's not new ... by Slof · · Score: 1

    We used this type of mouse a few (3) years ago for a co-worker suffering from RSI ...

    Nothing new to report.

    .K

    --
    The day MickiSoft stops sucking is the day they announce their first vacuum-cleaner !
  75. Unusable by Bud · · Score: 2
    The joystick mouse "Anir" has been out for a while. It's overpriced and badly made. I bought one for a friend with RSI wrist problems and it turned out that yes, it relieves the pain but it's very slow and heavy to use. Instead of using your fingers, you use your whole arm. After a year or so, the mouse stopped working properly, just as if the X roller was clogged, but it never started working properly no matter how much I cleaned it. I even took it apart and cleaned all moving pieces. AFAIK, the Anir is now resting in peace in a wardrobe somewhere.

    --Bud

  76. A Bit more leftie complaint by Jayman2 · · Score: 1

    Seems like the thing locks a computer to be used by either right-handed people or left-handers (if they produce such a version). So I hope this thing will not take off for use at universities, internet cafe's etc. I can just see the signs: "Right Hand Section this way..."

    --
    -.sig sauer-
  77. Bad for the elbow by pkesel · · Score: 1

    I switched from a mouse to a track ball to relieve elbow problems. This thing would be worse than a regular mouse for me. Looks to me as though it would force the user to suspend the whole arm above the level of the desk to ensure that the unit stayed at the proper angle to the desk, to avoid lifting hte roller off the surface. At best fatiguing.

    --
    - Sig this!
  78. Future Power optical by Penguinoflight · · Score: 1

    I have a super-comfortable Futer Power optical mouse, this mouse is designed mostly as a both-handed. It is identical on both sides, and it's comfortable for me (I'm right handed), but because it's the same on both sides, it will probably be for you. (btw, it's one of the cheapest optical on pricewatch.com).

    --
    "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
    1 John 4:14
  79. If you share a computer by Technician · · Score: 2

    We solved the right handed / left handed problem at home by using a PS2 mouse and a USB mouse. If you are a southpaw, find a nice mouse that isn't flavored either way and place it on the left. It's funny when we get visitors. They see two mice and think it adds special functions, especialy if we feed them a line about moving with one mouse and shooting with the other in quake.

    --
    The truth shall set you free!
  80. Input Devices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly the next step in human interface device evolution is direct brain control. Your synapses are in constant use daily and millions of times per second, therefore, the "wear" on them would be minimal. It should be noted, that no such device should include a force feedback effect.