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Structural Damage to the Financial District
An anonymous submitter sent in a couple of links to damage reports on the World Trade Center complex - a nifty 3D map of the center and surrounding areas showing which buildings have been damaged or destroyed, and a discussion of how exactly they're going to excavate the below-ground area of the complex considering that it is below sea level.
Yeah, that map showing the destruction of one of America's greatest symbols sure is "nifty"!
"And like that
CNN did a similiar graphic of the destruction on one of the first days, but did not color code what buildings were damaged, etc.
I suspect they did this graphic right after the results were announced by New York. As I recall yesterday was the first day that many people were allowed back into a lot of the buildings in the area, and therefore the inspections were only completed in the last couple of days.
On a somewhat related note, a German news channel stated today that the impact of the falling WTC was 1/25 of the power of a A-bomb. That's massively, if you take into consideration that the whole energie is unsealed within a place with one of the highest population densities in the world.
I did find the map nifty, because I really didn't feel like I knew the extent of the damage. I didn't have any sort of diagram that could relate what happened.
The Verizon Building shown in the detail map is aparently where my company's T1 is routed from. We went down for about 4 hours on the day of the attack, and that building is still marked as 'severely damaged'. I guess losing your Internet connection isn't nearly as bad as losing your life, your loved ones, or even your office space-- but its still not a trip through the park.
Has anyone else been affected by the damage to Verizon's infrastructure? Does anyone know if they rerouted the lines to go somewhere else?
It's real world Sim City! Major metropolis, major disaster with collapsed buildings, all rendered in an iso 3D view! Looks like they've got the damage overlay up...
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
Some pictures taken by someone in our company who was allowed into 3 World Financial Center (the blue-coded building w/ the pyramid roof) have been circulated around the co. in email. I've posted them here. I just added a link to CNN's map on that page.
Is just amazing. I hope the effort goes well. And we all come out of this stronger. I hope we all see that most of problems that we have are very petty and start working on making ourselfs better.
Canada's Scotia Bank will be glad to see this problem being worked on. A division of Scotia in the US had been storing a huge amount of gold and silver in vaults under the WTC.
I wonder if anyone is going to attempt to lift this before the authorities can get to it? That would be one hell of an engineering feat, not to mention logistical nightmare. But, I suppose, not impossible...
"They do not preach that their god will rouse them, a little before the Nuts work loose." Kipling, 'The Sons of Martha'
Now we're slashdotting CNN.com. As if they didn't have enough web requests to worry about.
~LoudMusic
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
The U.S. Geological survey has a "nifty" page describing it's efforts in"finding those fractures that have a high hydraulic conductivity". Maybe they can map the wall to see if there are any cracks.
Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
My office is in a building which appears in the deep-ocre colored section; lower, right-hand corner - listed as "damaged but stable". I've been in the building working all last week and besides the fact that they're hestitant to run the AC (too much dust) there's nothing wrong with it.
Maybe they classify dusty filter systems as "damaged"?
Did you guys notice. They renewed their contract with Akamai. The map is served through them. So did CNN notice that a single company cannot serve the immense volume that these terrible times demand?
I don't know if it was in other media outlets.
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
CNN does say these are partial lists, but does that mean that all Arabian sounding names are automatically on the suspect list? Or is this a CNN version of ClearChannel-type censorship?
"It's naive - and make believe - that we will never lose if we remove our shoes -- Barenaked Ladies"
That was a major plot device in Die Hard III. If I remember correctly, they used a tunnel boring machine to dig from the bombed subway station inside the bank. Conceivably, in our case, the villains could use a similar machine to bore through the "bathtub" walls into the rubble. However, they'd need to face the same water problems than the regular excavation workers would, and they'd have the additional problem of bringing such heavy equipment near the site without raising suspicions...
Some of you people pick on Micheal for his arguably poor choice of the word "nifty", but then makes jokes about how "cool" it is resembling a Sim City game. That seems far worse in taste than Micheal's inadvertant choice in words.
Besides, I think the thought and effort the artist put into the map to help us visualize this disaster was pretty nifty...
As the father of a son aboard a smaller destroyer and whose enlistment buddy is aboard another larger one, I was priviledged to receive this copy of an email from an ensign aboard the USS Winston Churchill. An uplifting piece of sentiment - compared to Steven Erlanger's recent story, which you can read here
Dear Dad,
Well, we are still out at sea, with little direction as to what our next priority is. The remainder of our port visits, which were to be centered around max liberty and goodwill to the United Kingdom, have all but been cancelled. We have spent every day since the attacks going back and forth within imaginary boxes drawn in the ocean, standing high-security watches, and trying to make the best of our time. It hasn't been that fun I must confess, and to be even more honest, a lot of people are frustrated at the fact that they either can't be home, or we don't have more direction right now. We have seen the articles and the photographs, and they are sickening. Being isolated as we are, I don't think we appreciate the full scope of what is happening back home, but we are definitely feeling the effects.
About two hours ago the junior officers were called to the bridge to conduct Shiphandling drills. We were about to do a man overboard when we got a call from the LUTJENS(D185), a German warship that was moored ahead of us on the pier in Plymouth, England. While in port, the WINSTON S CHURCHILL and the LUTJENS got together for a sports day/cookout on our fantail, and we made some pretty good friends.
Now at sea they called over on bridge-to-bridge,requesting to pass us close up on our port side, to say goodbye. We prepared to render them honors on the bridgewing, and the Captain told the crew to come topside to wish them farewell. As they were making their approach, our Conning Officer announced through her binoculars that they were flying an American flag. As they came even closer, we saw that it was flying at half-mast.
The bridgewing was crowded with people as the Boatswain's Mate blew two whistles- Attention to Port- the ship came up alongside and we saw that the entire crew of the German ship were manning the rails, in their dress blues. They had made up a sign that was displayed on the side that read "We Stand By You".
Needless to say there was not a dry eye on the bridge as they stayed alongside us for a few minutes and we cut our salutes. It was probably the most powerful thing I have seen in my entire life and more than a few of us fought to retain our composure. It was a beautiful day outside today.
We are no longer at liberty to divulge over unsecure e-mail our location, but we could not have asked for a finer day at sea. The German Navy did an incredible thing for this crew, and it has truly been the highest point in the days since the attacks. It's amazing to think that only a half-century ago things were quite different,and to see the unity that is being demonstrated throughout Europe and the world makes us all feel proud to be out here doing our job.
After the ship pulled away and we prepared to begin our man overboard drills the Officer of the Deck turned to me and said "I'm staying Navy."
I'll write you when I know more about when I'll be home, but for now, this is probably the best news that I could send you. Love you guys.
db
Cig:
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There have been some 1500 workers at the scene constantly since Tuesday, and I believe they are working as fast as they can. You have to realize just how dangerous the rescue efforts are.
Consider that the only survivors they found (last I heard) were rescue workers -- fire department, police, etc. These were people who arrived after the fact, but before the buildings collapsed. There is still danger of more collapses, especially when dealing with the rubble that is piled on top of the massive basements of the WTC towers. One false move and you could lose any remaining survivors down there.
As for the subway, they did try, and it's hopeless at this point. I believe it was flooded or something to that affect, and possible the subway tunnel could collapse; there's simply too much risk in that route. I do know that they did consider that possibility, and came to the conclusion that it simply wasn't worth the risk.
I can certainly understand your feelings on this, but believe me they are and have been trying to move as fast as they possibly can. It's just very dangerous, not to mention just how massive the destruction is...
NGWave - Fast Sound Editor for Windows
There's a problem with your idea that they should have taken "more risk" in finding people. To start off with, as horible it is to say this, most of the people in the main buildings were instant pancakes - they had a 5,000 ton building fall on them. Most of the rescue workers seem to know this, based on reports (but that doesn't mean they give up looking.) There's very little hope of having found survivors - even finding an intact body is rather difficult most of the time (again, basing this on stuff comming out of there that I've read.) But, it's something they are risking thier lives to do - it's bad enough that some rescuers took to doing things like writing thier name and SSN# on thier arms, in case they do get killed. If they take any more risks, the loss of life gets even higher for the rescuers. There have already been a couple of incidents (firemen falling down into a deep pit is a good example - luckly, none were injured to badly.) There's just too little hope of survivors. As for citequing thier methods - well, when you go down there and start picking up concrete and steel looking for survivors, I'll be more impressed with your expertise.
The underground areas are already being worked on. There's also been some reports from that area that I've read - yes, they are trying the underground areas already, and have been since the first day. Fucking gruesom. The stench alone would be enough to make most people incapable of working in there.
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
Points worth considering, though, is that the US was acting on behalf of muslims in Kosovo, and Bosnia, prior to that. Perhaps, as bin Laden despises the USA for having troops in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, his twisted view is that the US is an unworthy savior of muslims from Slobodan Milosevic, perhaps going so far as to view the US intrusion as getting in the way of their own planned reign of terror. They think in strange little circles, those radicals.
Manhattan amazed me when I was there, the density of tall buildings, creating canyon-like surroundings on the streets, as far up as 47th. In reviewing the second plane strike I wondered what the impact would have been if they had struck the building lower and clipped a corner. Would it have tipped and destroyed more? It's tough to find a silver lining in such a dark cloud, but if nothing else, the resources of the US will now be set to tracking these people down and eliminating their organizations. Sad it took this to wake them up that anti-missile-missiles weren't what are needed.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
you know, this looks alot like a SimCity map.
I did receive an email from Amex to the effect that they have been affected, but all financial services would be fine. Guess those people understand the value of mirror sites, but the disruption is business, seeking office space, setting up new information systems, etc. will be felt, I'm positive.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
During the first outbreak of Code Red in July people though that it slowed down their network. However, later it turned out that the slowdowns were actually due to a tunnel fire under Baltimore...
In an interview with the architect of the building on CNN, he said that in the event of a collapse, they were designed to collapse as they did, inward, so they wouldn't level half of lower Manhattan.
If anything, I'd imagine the loss of life would have been much worse had the towers simply fallen to the sides, as they would've taken several surrounding buildings down immediately along with the people inside.
Get some perspective please. Ten thousand Americans die every day. I lot of them are killed by automobiles, but I can still say "that's a nifty car"; more of them are killed by diet related problems, but I can still say that I know a place that serves nifty deserts.
Sorrow is one thing; the sappy, uber-solemn milking of "our national grief" that the media is pumping out to manipulate us into going out and killing a bunch more people is quite another; and I, for one, want no part of it.
-- MarkusQ
How about your house you bastard!
Look, as a Canadian observer, I wonder about a few things.
1). Just what the hell about this mess qualifies this as a "WAR"? A war is 2 or more identifiable military groups in uniform killing each other off until the other is exhausted|defeated|runs out of young people to throw at the problem. Or perhaps the American public feels that this is better akin to your War On Drugs?
2). The media and government sure were quick to settle on America's new Bad Guy of the Week©, Osama Bin Laden. With all the intelligence that fingered him so quickly AFTER the fact, you would think that a multi-billion dollar intelligence agency could get some wind of things PRIOR to the bombings. After all, your government helped fund and train the man during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
3).Within a week of the WTC incident, your president's State of the Union address was in effect, a declaration of "WAR" against the government of Afghanistan and any one else on their side. Them's fightin' words. Hope you don't piss off too many other small, 4th world nations with nothing to lose. I hear Pakistan has The Bomb.
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4). Your own propaganda machines quickly turned the attacks ( and I do agreee they were attacks)
into comparisons with Pearl Harbour, then nursed and fed the idea of WAR into everyones minds, and then moved on to massaging all your brains into an easy-going dinner conversation on suspending some of your freedoms during this time of war.
I really want to avoid sounding like a crackpot but it's too late: To me, as an observer, it all just smacks of 1984. Another manufactured "war", every one of you a suspect ( god help you if you're of Arab descent), under constant surveillance, watching your country win battles over "the enemy" in a far off place you never see except through the lens of Big brother's eye. maybe not exactly, but the parralels are there, and I can't comprehend the pace at which talk of war and suspension of liberties took place. Fishy.
It pisses me off that this attack is now an excuse to bolster your sagging economy by waging a war on innocents in another country you couldn't give two shits about otherwise. You want vengeance againt those persons responsible? They're already dead. You want they're accomplices? They're the walking dead who have nothing to lose. You can find them in the hills and caves of Afghainstan. They're young men who have nothing except their pride, and the ability to kill you where you stand. They dont know any other way. YOU on the other hand, have much to lose.
They already "won". A few crackpots with fucking boxcutters took out the heart of your economy! HA! And now you're willing to bend over to your corrupt president who fixed a fucking election ( ooh!, we must rally behind the president during these hard times!) so that he can "toil and not falter" dropping fucking bombs on illiterate desert nomads, who probably don't even know what's happened in world in the last 3 MONTHS, let alone 2 weeks. And what sickens me the most is the complacency of my goverment, and the EU governments to allow yours to simply declare a fucking war out of the blue, as if revenge is OK. What happened to the UN or NATO?
I am sorry that this happened to you, I 'm sorry for all the American children who have no parent(s), and I'm sorry for the Afgani|Pakistani children without limbs and eyeballs after this WAR begins. And I'm sorry to see that we're all a still a bunch of assholes waving rocks and sticks. Just imagine spending your life tending cattle with your AK at your side because you never know when the next faceless superpower is gonna try to bomb you back to the Stone Age.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Verizon have a website covering their disaster recover operations. They even have a few good picuures of their damaged building here, including one showing the fire department spraying water out one of their 7th floor windows!
-- We don't understand software, and sometimes we don't understand hardware, but we can *see* the blinking lights
This 3D Map is a much better view of the affected buildings.
The really wonderfull thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
There was a bunch of Freon stoerd underneath the WTC. For those that don't know if Freon cathces fire it produces nerve gas.
Someone mod this up to "Insightful".
My karma is -1 because I don't use AC posting. LOL.
One reason they are contining to go slow is so that peoples remains can be recovered. Many people value retrieving what they can of their loved ones that died in the collapse. If they simply used heavy equipment to truck it all away many bodies would be scooped up. The rubble and muck is almost being sifted to recover small remains like teeth, which hopefully will allow the victims to be identified, and bring a bit of closure to their families.
Anarchists never rule
it took way to much time to try to save the people.
Yeah, that's what Saddam Hussein said, too.
God bless America.
I thought God was busy commanding people to fly airplanes into office buildings. That guy can never make up his mind, can he?
I noticed that 7 World Trade is collapsed (We all saw that on TV) but 6 World Trade is only marked as 'In Danger of Collapse'. Since 6 is between 7 and the 2 towers (1 & 2 World Trade), how can this happen? Is 6 built like a bunker or what? Or was 7 WT flakey to begin with?
J.
Wow, that thing has an amazing amount of detail. Did CNN make that themselves? I wonder if I could get a copy of the original 3D version.
..
On an unrelated note, I bet that map could be used to plan more precision strikes against Manhattan
-B
Not that this wasn't entirely predictable.
An article from today's NY Times has disturbing topographic images of the site generated using lidar.
That 3D picture is just a fancier version of the
official map from the New York City Emergency Mapping Center.
My source is an AP story pulled of the wire for sfgate. I don't know why they would lie about it. IT was a legitimate concern at one point. Read the article:/ archive/2001/09/17/national1723EDT0792.DTL
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news
Of course it could be wrong but AP reports are not exactly known for their sensationalism.
Today's New York Times has an article linking to images derived from infrared laser measurements taken from a plane orbiting 5,000 ft ASL. The link is the first one in the "multimedia" box.
Um, there's a difference between 6,000 people dying in accidents and 6,000 people being intentionally murdered (not to mention the economic cost).
I would argue that there is little or no difference to the people who die. I for one, do not expect to have fundamentally different feelings about my death based on whether if it is brought about by a drunk driver or a terrorist. In fact, I expect to be dead.
To the living (or perhaps in this context it would be better to say "To the yet to die") there is, I would agree, a great deal of difference. I am for example, far, far more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than by a terrorist (assuming of course that a smoker doesn't get me with second hand smoke first). Furthermore, there are many more steps I can take to protect myself from these more likely threats, and almost none of them involve letting the media work my up to a blood lust so that I sanction more senseless killing. But I doubt that was your point.
Just out of curiosity, how many have to die for you to think it's important? Another 10 jumbo jets? We know the terrorists are actively trying to get nuclear weapons. It should be pretty clear that they don't care how much damage they do or how many people they kill. How many need to die? Would a nuke killing 5 million people be enough for you?
This seems to me utter blather. I object to using the deaths of some innocents to justify killing more innocents; you "rebut" by asking how many more people I want to die, as if I were the one screaming for blood. In case you still don't get it:
I don't think killing innocent people is a good idea.
I have no objection to apprehending the culprits, including their support staff, charging them with murder and, if they are convicted, imprisoning or executing them to prevent further atrocities. This is a far cry from declaring "war on Afganastan" or "nuking 5 million people."
Guess what -- sometimes there are more important things in life than how soon you get your shiny new video game.
I have no idea where this came from. In point of fact, I have never owned a video game, shiny or dull, new or used. And even if I had, I expect that I would still object to being badgered into attacking a nation of several million poor people on the basis of the alleged actions of one wealthy nut case and his misguided followers.
-- MarkusQ
Actually, I think you're right. Most companies that could afford to keep their offices in the WTC, could also afford a decent off-site backup strategy. It would seem that many invested in one. Judging by a report I read recently but can't find now, one of the larger off-site backup companies (Iron Mountain, maybe?) said their affected customers started calling a few minutes after the first plane hit.
One company that landed on its feet with a great deal of luck got a writeup on CNN. Seems the CEO's fiancee, who also worked at the company, had the presence of mind to grab their backup tapes on her way out the door.
Most people are more worried about the largely-irreplaceable paper-based records that either burned up, were buried under rubble, or spread from hell to breakfast over lower Manhattan when the towers came down. I believe NYC, or maybe even NY state has suspended or outright eliminated statues of limitations on many kinds of proceedings, in anticipation of the resulting bureaucratic mess the missing records will eventually create.
~Philly
In order to manage a problem like this one, one needs to communicate effectively between all the different stakeholders that are interested in the problem. To this end, NYC has a group just for the purpose. They are called The City of New York Emergency Mapping Center. They produced the parent of all these status maps which is located here.
There wasn't a 'big' map before now because the assessments (as noted elsewhere in these postings) take considerable skill & time. It will not be until the surveyers and the structural engineers get together and measure each building against known locations that we'll really know what will become of some of these buildings. The risks to be still standing buildings are by no means over yet. No one knows the damage that has been done below goround -- nor will we for weeks to come. There are many stories about earthquake damaged buildings that looked fine but had failed foundations in the literature -- those kinds of problems will have to be found by non /.ers who have gone to school for a zillion years. Just because you're in a building and it appears to be working 'ok' doesn't mean that it will ultimately not be raised because its foundation is unsafe.
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Now for the creeper part of this posting. Have a look at New York City Mayor's Office of Emergency Management. It is amazing that the rescue and recovery is going so smoothly when the people charged with the problem are office-less.
And finally to the scum below that said "rescuers took to long". They've hurt post-collapse several hundred rescuers already with many hundred if not thousands more to be hurt. The site is extremely dangerous in terms of both individual hazards like sharp objects and biohazard as well as bigger hazards like debris piles collapsing, fires or even some of the still standing frames collapsing. They are making a trade-off between danger and speed and their families will argue they're already going too fast. To you (the scum) I say go enlist so you can be canon fodder someplace where we won't miss your /. postings.
-- Multics
I appreciate your post; "misanthropic deviancy" is an interesting phrase. Can you expound on it?
db
Cig:
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I went through part of the list last week and saw at least a handful of clearly Arabic sounding names. Furthermore, even if the percentage of Arabs that perished in the WTC was disproportionate, remember the people that occupied or visited the WTC tended to be more affluent and better educated than most of the population. This is one demographic that the Arabic population simply does not have proportional representation in the US (especially those with such clear cultural and religious ties). In other words, it's not suprising.
If you're trying to suggest some kind of conspiracy (as some of the repliers do) including Arabs at the WTC or at large, I don't buy it. At best, the terrorists would be taking a big risk. At worst, they'd surely be detected. Where it may be difficult or impossible for the US intelligence agencies to detect 50 or so handpicked people conspiring (with limited information, if we're to believe the "terrorist cell" theory), it would be highly improbable that the media, FBI, CIA, or some other agency would not pickup on large scale conspiracy of that sort.
I believe this disaster has been there since the beginning (or near the beginning). Put dense commercial zoning (the kind that breeds tall buildings) near an airport and eventually you should get a plane crash.
Surely we are intellegent to realise that we are still in the beginning. The terrorists have moved from a juvenile phase to an adult phase, and we will now hold them responsible for their actions, not only as individuals but as organisations to. The Terrorists have graduated to weapons of mass destruction, and with it the responsability of a country. We will now have to treat anyone who presents themselves as a terrorist organisation, as have the ability to wage full-scale war against us. and again many will die as a result.
Let's not forget that even the most evil among us have innocent loved ones who'll genuinely morn their loss. Soon I fear my son will be in harm's way as he is a Soldier, as I once was.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
As true as that is, I can't imagine many people actually associate cars or deserts with people dying.
I think a lot of people associate deserts with death. Did you mean desserts?
The original 3D version collapsed on 11-September.
I've been struck by the comparison to SimCity as well, ever since I saw the original high-rez satellite photos at http://www.spaceimaging.com and loaded them up in Photoshop. As I was zooming in, I noticed the buildings were all showing that orthagonal 45 degree angle look, and as I zoomed in or out, the SimCity parallel really struck me.
I CE.html and these sort of remind me of SimTower.
The NYTimes has also done some interesting graphics, like http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/index_OFF
It's startled me, hearing about the structure the last couple of weeks, how much SimTower was clearly based on the WTC. The skylobbies, the express/local elevator system, the shopping mall, the multi-level underground, the subway stations down at the very bottom...
Laura
See article here.
There is a LIDAR topo-map of the WTC area - click the first link in the "Multimedia" secton on the right of the page ("Mapping the Surface of a Disaster").
Pretty disturbing to see just two 60-foot mounds, especially in the cross-section view.
HOWTO get better dates on slashdot
Why not just build on top of that rubble with a new structure?
Ask the guys who didn't worry about the stability of the ground under the Tower of Pisa.
If there's one thing you need when you're building a structure tens of stories high and weighing hundreds of thousands of tons, it's a damned rock-stable piece of ground for the structure to sit on. According to reports, the owner of the site wants to put up four 50 story buildings in place of the twin towers, so they will need to clear everything out and reestablish a good foundation.
Another reason they can't just plow it under is the infrastructure buried beneath. They're not going to just write off the train tunnel to NJ, presumably thousands of commuters relied on it every day. Rebuilt offices will need close-by transit to bring the workers in. And they definitely have to shore up that 'bathtub' that holds back the waters of the Hudson. If that is breached, it could negatively affect the foundation stability of the buildings that survived in the area.
~Philly
Not trouble - you are most welcome. Wish it were on the national news. Maybe...I should try...
db
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I don't know how much stuff was on paper only, and not stored in binary somewhere, but I wonder about the problems caused by paper copies of personal financial information falling (in this case practically literally) into the wrong hands.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
there's a discrepancy on CNN's page :
this page shows 5 WTC being "in danger of collapse"
but this page shows it as either "collapsed or destroyed"
which case is true?
If God gave us curiosity
Freon doesn't burn.
If it gets hot enough, it decomposes. One of the products is phosgene gas.
I don't know if it is a nerve gas, but it is corrosive.
Doesn't smell very plesant either.
Data Sheet. http://siri.org/msds/mf/cards/file/0007.html
bacpro
When you consider what the USS Cole suffered at the hands of similar-thinking perps IN A F(expletive deleted)KING RUBBER BOAT!? We have treaties with Germany. We can't (or shouldn't) stand alone. Get the gist of the post - I makes me cry, dammit.
db
Cig:
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Also, what you are suggesting amounts to building it on top of the bodies of the unrecovered dead, bodies that a lot of families wish to have returned to them for proper burial.
This raises another point. Not all of the pieces of all of the victims will ever be recovered, and the site is literally soaked in the blood of thousands. To me there is something just plain wrong about rebuilding a commercial venture on, as Lincoln referred to Gettysburg, "this hallowed ground". Perhaps I'd feel differently if I were a New Yorker, and I don't blame them for wanting to erect new symbols of defiance and pride, but I'd suggest a memorial park with a simple structure in the middle inscribed "never again".
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
As with most things in this imperfect universe, money rules. The sad reality is that New York real-estate is some of the priciest in the world, and despite the loss of lives, nobody can afford to let a couple dozen acres lie in economically unproductive use. Whilst I agree about a monument somewhere (maybe in Central Park), I don't think that turning the entire complex into a monument is the best answer. I would see it as an admission of defeat.
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
Bullshit. Period. No Such Thing - Try Smoke and Mirrors, maybe. Sorry, had to say that.
db
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And I appreciate your musical sig - if only it were on a staff so real musicians could "dig" it. Gershwin did rock, kinda.
db
Cig:
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It's my understanding that on these very large structures there is an equal mass underground as above ground, usually more compact (dense), thicker walls, more weighty, beefier. You just can't build on 'Rubble'. I would only say "this hallowed ground" has more mass than both buildings put together (figuratively speaking of course). Some of the postings about this tragedy really sicken me, even as a hard core geek I cannot understand quibbling about whose servers went down, which secretary grabbed vital backups before evacuating. We're waging a war!, calling on God to be on our side, the terrorists called God on their side, and unfortuneately we're doing the same thing that we bombed the serbs and croats for doing!! Why don't we put our little laptops away, quit hacking, quit slashdotting, quit relying on 3-D interactive Sim City like maps and walk out your damned front door and meet your neighbors!, talk to people you wouldn't normally talk to!, turn off your TV and go to a ball game!, interact with your neighbors, your friends, your barber (or hair stylist), quit attacking each other based on their OS of choice, knock off the MS attacks! (yes even bill is an american!) Cut the crap and become a community of people!, of friends, of neighbors, help your neighbor out!, donate time to a homeless shelter, give a guy who's stranded on the highway a ride to the next town, help paint house ofthe old lady in your neighborhood! Then, these maggots couldn't live next door to you, they couldn't go about life in a non-gregorious unfeeling large community where all they are is 'the address next door', many of the people that lived right next door to these lunatics didn't even know the people! That's the crime, the isolation of people from their neighbors!, we've forgotten about our sense of community!, we've dabbled in other countries affairs too much, all the time forgetting about things on the home front! - giving aid to other countries before we'll give a sandwich to a transient outside McDonald's. Too busy slashdotting everything under the sun to give a flying S*** about our own neighbors. And all this time the president that no-one wanted is doing one heck of a job rallying our country into a sense of community, a sense of patriotism, a sense of unity that we almost entirely forgot about!!!! Then, after we fix things here, capture Ben Laddin and make him view Benny HINN revivals 24 hours a day for years! that'll teach him!, or better yet infomercials...he'll de-sensitize really quick!
285.000.000 / (77*365) = 10140 deaths/day
That is the stupidest formula I have ever seen
No, the formula he gave is prefectly reasonable. If there are 285 million Americans alive at this moment, and we don't expect them (on average) to be alive 77 years from now, then they will have to die on one of the next 365*77 days (days per year times 77 years). That means on a typical day, 285 Million / (77*365) of them will die.
The slight dodge of saying we expect them all to die in the next 77 years on average doesn't significantly affect the outcome since we expect about as many people not-yet-born to die before they reach 77 as we expect extant people to live past 77.
--MarkusQ
I take exception to your "numbers".
Think about those numbers for a second, in terms of PEOPLE. Each one of those people had lives, affected others lives. If you took just a second to think about how many people were affected in a geometric progression outward from the actual people killed, you'd realize the affect of the attack in New York is far worse than isolated killings anywhere in the world. Your attempt to contrast the killings with two unrelated politically defined areas and situations makes me ill.
What would happen if you compared against the population of New York City and re-worked your numbers (a bit more realistic comparison though still quite unfair)? I think you'd be a bit more enlightened.
Can you honestly say that every one of those deaths in Palestine were innocent people? Many may have been, but you cannot claim all are. Every one of those 5500 deaths you list (which I note you rounded down from the current estimate - how caring of you) were people just going about thier lives, some working to save other people.
As a side note you talk about innocent until proven guilty - as far as I can tell that still goes. They seem to be trying to provide solid proof before taking action, and will have to convince the world of that proof to gain international support for what we do as a nation. But then I imagine that no degree of proof short of Bin Laden coming over, shoving an ice-cream cone in your face and saying "hey, it was me!" will satisfy you.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Phosgene is indeed used as a weapon.
FWIW, I was on a course here in the UK last year with a guy who works for Deutsche Bank (who had something like 35 floors at the WTC) and we were discussing backup strategies.
Apparently, their offices in NYC get backed up over wire daily to both London and Berlin, and the London and Berlin offices do likewise to each other and NYC.
Banks like DB take their data really seriously, and make sure that short of simultaneous nuclear attack on all three cities, they can still retain their trading data - and I wouldn't mind betting they've got a contingency plan for that eventuality. I imagine this would go some way to explain how lots of these firms got back up and running so quickly.
Nice to know there are some reasonable people out there as well.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Freon doesn't burn, or do much of anything else. It is about as stable as you can get.
At least it's stable until you bombard it with UV in the ozonophere...
Is anyone aware of the fact that more British nationals died in the WTC than have in most, if not all, the IRA bombings in London (or the rest of the UK), ever?
Tons of non-americans died in the WTC, a fact that i haven't heard mentioned on the news at all..
ìì!
Here is a graphic with some building identification. The rest is up to you.
dookdookdook
It's closest equivalent is Holy Struggle. A carpenter is said to do Jihad when he performs carpentry.
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" - Will Rogers
Check out Bloomberg's list of victims here and search on, for example, "Mohammed".
That comment should have been marked a troll.
And I find myself completely disagreeing with your perspective, and I might add it seems to have no correleation with the dozens of Canadian friends I've spoken with on the topic that support America's position on this.
1) A "war", according to Merriam-Webster, can be defined as "a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b : a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end". I think this clearly allows one to classify this attack as an act of war.
2) It's been said many times this has been a failure of intelligence, and that much is true. But one must recognize the political & legal constraints placed on the intelligence community since the end of the cold war. It's difficult to spy when spy's are politically unpopular.
As for the media's continued concentration on Bin Laden, I definitely think they're over doing it, but to counter-balance this, Colin Powell was very clear on NBC's "Meet the Press" this weekend that their Administration does not believe Bin Laden is -directly- responsible for these attacks, though it does have significant evidence that al Qaeda is behind it. Since he's the "leader" of that group, and has been indited for prior attacks, that does place a significant burden of responsibility on him.
3) The president's address was a clear plan of action. The Taliban deserves to be condemned for many reasons. As for "pissing off 4th world countries", would you propose the alternative of doing nothing, and allowing development of anti-American groups to grow unfettered? I think not. America wants to survive.
4) Many people in the press and the administration have repeatedly suggested that these attacks bare LITTLE resemblance to Pearl Harbor. The situation with the media is not as simple as you state. There are many opinions and views out there; comparasons with Pearl Harbor are one of many viewpoints.
5) 1984? Please point out the suspension of liberties that are taking place. Unless you're completely in the dark about this, there is are a tremendous number of politicians that place liberty above almost all else.
I'll point you to the repeated statements by the top members of Congress, all agreeing in a bipartisan way that we MUST preserve American values and liberties. The president even mentioned it in his speech. You're hearing what you want to hear.
6) Are you so dense to not see the reason behind this war on terrorism? This is about -survival-. A group of human beings, numbering in the tens of thousands, at the far fringes of the Islamic world wants to see ALL AMERICANS DEAD. This group also wants to see women's rights taken away and severe punishment to be dolled out to those who don't subscribe to their belief system. And they're willing to die for all of these beliefs. Not to mention their inconsistencies, in that they killed people from over 80 countries in the WTC attacks, not to mention other non-Americans in prior embassy bombings.
This is a group that stands against all of western philosophy: of liberty, freedom, and tolerance. It threatens our way of life by striking against our public. This movement must be stopped.
This is not about revenge. This is about keeping our freedoms and values alive in this world, without it disintegrating into terror. Terror and loss of hope brings rise to totalitarian and fascist approaches to governing, something we know all too well from the transition between WW1 and WW2.
What about the UN and NATO? NATO has opened the door to allowing members to give military assistance in this effort. "An attack on one is an attack on all."
As for your aside about Bush fixing the election, I'd suggest you stuff that comment back in your grimy pocket, it lends little credence to your point and further underlines how silly you're being. People don't care anymore. Grow up and move on, most of America alrady has. Bush has a 90% approval rating according to Gallup, that's the highest... ever.
-Stu
In rebuttal you said (and I quote): "What are you talking about? Millions of dollars were sent over to India, along with rescue people, to help in the disaster."
Now, this would only serve as an effective rebuttal of my position if either A) we treat all big numbers as simply "big" or B) you were actually claiming that the response to the earthquake was proportionate to the response to the WTC--that is, roughly four times as large, since there were roughly four times as many victims.
Taking the more charitable interpretation of your intention, I did the math and found that, in fact, the billions spent on a disaster that killed thousands is far more that millions spent on a disaster that killed tens of thousands. This confirms my initial position.
You then twist my original statement (while falling to the old debaters trick of accusing me of twisting things in the same breath); you attempt to imply that I said that "no one cared" (and thus quantification is irrelevant) when in fact I said that "no one here seemed to care much."
-- MarkusQ