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Microsoft: The Next Investigations

Runt-Abu writes: "Some of the UK's top companies (and some of the not-so-top as well but hey...) are questioning Microsoft's policy on pricing. In an open letter to the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry several of the top companies voiced concern at the cost of an extra £880m over a typical four-year investment cycle. No one from Microsoft has commented at this time, given the current state of affairs it's highly likely many companies will not upgrade or seek alternative cheaper solutions." Basically, a large trade group is asking the British Office of Fair Trading (akin to the FTC in the U.S.) to investigate Microsoft's price increases. And Gogl writes: "It appears the attorneys general of 6 more states have voiced concern over Microsoft, particularly regarding the upcoming release of Windows XP. Microsoft and their allies claim that AOL-Time Warner was behind this, which AOL of course denies," pointing also to this piece on Microsoft's changing licensing costs.

299 comments

  1. No kidding.... by GearheadX · · Score: 3, Funny

    I can remember a time when buying Windows was a realtivly painless experience. Over the past several years though I've noticed a steady increase in the price of buying the dratted OS. A hundred bucks for the UPGRADE? Whatever their marketing department is smoking, I'd certainly like some; must be some pretty good stuff.

    1. Re:No kidding.... by ethereal · · Score: 2, Funny

      On the other hand, using Windows has never been particularly pain-free :)

      --

      Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and

    2. Re:No kidding.... by ackthpt · · Score: 3, Funny
      Buying: Painless

      Installing: "You make a grown man cry"


      As far as cost, you gotta expect some increase in the number of $$, just accounting for inflation alone. I consider dropping $3.79 for a bag of potato chips (value of contents ~$0.10), when I once could buy for $1.09, not really all that long ago, as a matter of fact.


      FWIW, you get more junk in the box, don't you? Maybe you need a prize in the bottom of the box to take away some of the pain... Maybe a fuzzy Clippy...on second thought...no, I guess that wouldn't really work, would it? (and not just because they're retiring it)

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    3. Re:No kidding.... by Eccles · · Score: 3, Funny

      Whatever their marketing department is smoking

      $100 bills, I think...

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    4. Re:No kidding.... by FatherOfONe · · Score: 1

      I'll try not to digress to your level of profanity...

      The core difference between previous versions of Windows and the XP stuff is that you OWNED those versions. You lease the new versions. While I agree that the price has remained around $100.00 for an upgrade, that upgrade now will only be good for three years. So what this gives Microsoft is guarenteed cash from you every three years. Kinda sucks if your company is going through some hard times in year number three...

      But I love that fact that they are doing this. I hope that they keep up the "good work". Because of this type of stuff, I now have upper managements interest in looking at alternatives. I would have NEVER had that opportunity before.

      --
      The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
    5. Re:No kidding.... by Rogerborg · · Score: 2
        • Whatever their marketing department is smoking
        $100 bills, I think...

      Uh, no, that's what they use to snort coke out of the ass cracks of the Bangkok ladyboys they keep busy fellating their bought politicians...

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  2. little late by gergi · · Score: 3, Funny

    Bah, I've been questioning their pricing for years and I never got a Slashot cover story.

    --
    Nosce te Ipsum
    1. Re:little late by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Bah, I've been questioning their pricing for years and I never got a Slashot cover story.

      Whiner! ;-)

      Amazing how naive these folks can get. Complaining about the high price rather than the underlying problem. As in, monopoly.

      Go on suffering folks... or swallow your medicine. Dr. Penguin knows what's good for you.

  3. To add to it ... by Mr_Silver · · Score: 2
    Microsoft met members of the IT directors' forum Elite and user groups Imis and Socitm - the local authority IT directors' organisation - on 17 September, and told them it would continue dialogue on the licensing issue.

    Neil Holloway, Microsoft's UK managing director, told IT directors he could make no changes to the new licensing proposals without specific permission from the company's US headquarters.

    Less than a week later, a letter sent to Elite, Imis and Socitm by Microsoft made it plain that the company would not contemplate any changes.

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    Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
  4. The prices really do keep going up. by Amphigory · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've been running Windows XP RC2, and must admit I kind of like it. Since my needs these days (as a working pastor-in-training) run more towards word processing than development and web servers, it does what I need pretty well. However, I looked today at the license costs for it and I'm choking a bit. A single-user home *upgrade* is $99. Home full version is $199, and professional full is $299. None of these are designed for server use, but for individual users.

    More interestingly, they appear to be actually planning to enforce licensing through an enforced registration (i.e. if you don't register in 14 days, it won't work.) I've often said that few people would put up with Windows if they had to pay for it. The truth of the matter is that many people do not bother with legal licenses for their home software, so don't get too excited when told the product sucks. I wonder if the high costs and no-pirating-allowed will cost Microsoft the market?

    --
    -- Slashdot sucks.
    1. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by stubear · · Score: 4, Informative

      Onec again...you do NOT have to register. You DO have to activate the product. Both are completely seperate processes but only activation is necessary and only requires the user to input the WPA code. No personal information is sent along with this code. You could even choose to register your software as a completely fictional character if you chose and Windows XP would work just fine.

    2. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      try $89 and $179 dumb ass. leave the priests alone.

    3. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by garcia · · Score: 3, Insightful

      unfortunatly it won't.

      at this point MS knows that they can attempt to kill off most of the pirating (yes, there are some copies that do not have to be registered). They have allowed it to go on long enough and have gotten a pretty nice niche (don't you think?)

      They know that people are going to want to run Windows software and they know that most of their previous products have pretty much sucked. Win2k and XP are actually decent (from what I have heard).

      I can't see people running XP over Win2k when they are both pretty stable.

      What do I know though?

    4. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you register as a fictional character. They will forward your ip to the FBI and claim that you are a potential terrorist. Wait for the knock.

    5. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you are registering your machine insted.

      --



      I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    6. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by ackthpt · · Score: 1
      enforced registration (i.e. if you
      don't register in 14 days, it won't work.)


      Well, at lease that's an improvement over their Totenkopfverband showing up and screaming "Aus passe!"

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    7. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by ThatComputerGuy · · Score: 3, Informative

      If I remember right, the Windows Authorization crap has already been cracked (could be wrong).

      However, Corporate edition does not need registration, only a serial. I can verify this, as I've tried it. Enter your serial, listen to the music during the configuration (yep...), and you're off. It does prompt you for registration, but it's not required, which makes sense for a "Corporate" environment.

      But who's to stop a home user from using a copy made from work? I certainly couldn't tell that this was meant for the office; even when I knew it was labeled Corporate.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    8. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by tshak · · Score: 2

      The price hasn't gone up that much. Win2k has gone down in price since it's been out, and it's still almost as much as WinXP. The Win2k pro upgrade is $189 as opposed to the WinXP Pro upgrade at $199. Win ME was $89 upgrade (at Costco I believe. I've seen it for $99 elsewhere). Same with Win98. Inflation's gone up more than that!

      --

      There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
    9. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by Chakat · · Score: 2, Informative
      It's been cracked, however MS is really snapping the whip on sites which have the code cracking program. Though I doubt even this action will be successful for very long; sone cracker out there is probably working on making the cracking code as javascript - if that happens, suddenly even google could be considered a "warez" stash.

      Though the corporate edition is probably going to be the edition that makes the rounds on the underground simply because it'll be easier than a code cracker.

      --

      If god had intended you to be naked, you would have been born that way.

    10. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by Guns+n'+Roses+Troll · · Score: 0

      Pastor-in-training, eh. What type of god would let planes crash into buildings? You fucktool. All the more reason to be an Atheist.

    11. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by cavemanf16 · · Score: 2
      Actually, my main computer just died running Win2k which I was borrowing from my bro' because he wasn't using it at the time. It doesn't even boot up, and from what I've found online, I'll have to do A LOT of work reinstalling CAB files and other crap to get it working again. I never had that kind of problem with Win98SE, so I'm going back to it (it also ran games better than win2k in my opinion which is why i still use windows at all). The latest Windows are too restrictive for my needs, but Linux (I use Mandrake) is nice and open, and free, and encourages using all kinds of different apps on it, not just a particular distro's software.

      I was waiting for Kapital to evolve a bit more for managing my finances, and for more games to become available for Linux, but now, I'm just gonna keep a Win98 partition around ONLY for the games. All my other important stuff is going onto a Linux run system from here on out...

    12. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by Sabalon · · Score: 2

      I think part of the deal of getting the Corporate edition is that you have to prove to MS that you are keeping a close eye on those CD's.

      We have the Microsoft Campus Agreement, which is similar - you get the media and a serial, but you don't need to register. We can not dupe those CD's and they are kept under lock and key.

      Of course, I have a key and a CD burner :) but no interest!

      And the corporate edition has already made its way around Usenet.

    13. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by ethereal · · Score: 1

      You could also try GnuCash.

      --

      Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and

    14. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by cavemanf16 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the info, but I have tried it out and am not sure if the lack of all the reporting and scheduling of payments/bills/paychecks is going to be a huge hinderance or not. Also, there's lots of dependancies and libraries that you have to install to get it working correctly. It's cool if you don't have investments and recurring things that need scheduled to track, but I do. Kapital claims to be able to do all that, even with their current beta version - plus I want to support KDE so that a really nice Linux front end doesn't get axed because of lack of financial support.

    15. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by jazman_777 · · Score: 1
      I've often said that few people would put up with Windows if they had to pay for it.


      The same people who would revolt if they had to make a lump-sum tax payment instead of "never seeing it due to withholding" are the same people who would revolt at buying windows if not for it's being "free" with the computer.


      There's got to be a way for us to get some money from these suckers!

      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    16. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I've been running Windows XP RC2...as a working pastor-in-training

      Oh, I get it: using the tools of the devil against him! Jolly good show!

    17. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by SurfsUp · · Score: 2
      I was waiting for Kapital to evolve a bit more for managing my finances, and for more games to become available for Linux, but now, I'm just gonna keep a Win98 partition around ONLY for the games. All my other important stuff is going onto a Linux run system from here on out...

      Kind of like how it went for me. I dual-booted for most of a year because of certain apps I'd gotten used to on Windows, notably mirc, until I accidently toasted the Windows partition on my laptop and would have had to go through some kind of strip search by Microsoft to get the thing installed again (auth number and CD not in same place). So at that point I just put in the effort to learn replacement applications and never looked back. I also kept Windows partitions on a couple of desktops, then after a couple of years I noticed I *never* used them so one day I just moved all the interesting files off and reformatted the partition as Ext2.

      Games. I used to play a lot but then I found myself actually doing some much interesting stuff with my computer that I didn't have time. Then recently I've found I've got more than enough first-string games on Linux to satisfy me if I ever do get back into it.

      --
      Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
    18. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by pudge_lightyear · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that planes were randomly flying around and God all of the sudden caused two of them to crash into the two towers?
      I have to say that's quite a stretch from what I've heard. You see, I heard that there were these terrorists who took control of the planes and crashed them there.
      I guess I was mislead.
      I guess too, that when I wake up tommorrow morning with a pain in my shoulder, that I will curse God and not the exercises I did the night before without stretching.

    19. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by jonnythan · · Score: 2

      Why would this stop the pirates? There are already copies of XP floating around that require no activation at all. Put in the product code during the install and that's it. A bit harder to share legally purchased cd's, but no harder to download and burn.

    20. Re:The prices really do keep going up. by Technician · · Score: 2

      I think the products should come with an expiration date, just like my milk. People who bought for a 4 year cycle were not properly notified that the software would expire that quickly.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
  5. Re:I can't believe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    people actually spend all their time trying to make Linux a desktop OS.

    At least we have Darwin on our side... No chance in hell of these fucks breeding and passing on these genes.

  6. FYI by NMerriam · · Score: 2, Offtopic


    Just for interest: the plural of "attorney general" is "attorneys general", not "attorney generals". The latter would be, I suppose, multiple military commanders with law degrees...

    --
    Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    1. Re:FYI by jsse · · Score: 1

      the plural of "attorney general" is "attorneys general", not "attorney generals". The latter would be, I suppose, multiple military commanders with law degrees...

      There's no mistake. Timothy is telling us that an army of evil commanders is invading an evil empire, and another evil empire was behind this, which the latter evil empire of course denies.

  7. Cost MS OSs by Red+Moose · · Score: 1
    What about the home user? In the olden times the MS OS cost only around 2-5% of the total PC cost, but now it's at leats 15-20% the cost ($300 for Win XP professional).

    In the future, Windows XXXP (the pr0n version) will be $1000 and the hardware will be around $200.

    If IBM are clever they will find something in the licenses from way back in the 80s that limits the relative amount MS can charge. Or is it that they do that and charge massive fees to the people who buy it separately from a complete system?

    --

    Acting stupid isn't much fun when there's someone around who knows better

    1. Re:Cost MS OSs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about the home user? In the olden times the MS OS cost only around 2-5% of the total PC cost, but now it's at leats 15-20% the cost ($300 for Win XP professional).

      More blatant stupidity. How is someone supposed to respond to drivel that's so completely ignorant?
      Since when do home users by Windows XP Pro? Since when do typical "home users" run something other than 98, 98se, Me that would require them to buy a full license instead of the XP Home upgrade price ($99)? Do you have a brain?

    2. Re:Cost MS OSs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have a brain?
      Do you? I mean - you are admitting you use Windoze?

    3. Re:Cost MS OSs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you? I mean - you are admitting you use Windoze?

      Slashdot wit at its best. "Windoze". Wow.

    4. Re:Cost MS OSs by baptiste · · Score: 2
      In the future, Windows XXXP (the pr0n version) will be $1000 and the hardware will be around $200. No kidding - even though you're joking - you're closer to the truth than you think. This quote from teh article sent a chill down my spine:
      "People should expect more of this," MacDonald said. "Our guidelines to our clients are that at least for 2002, they can look at their budget for Microsoft software and add 40 percent per year compounded."

      That is HUGE. IT budgets already get squeezed to the hilt because execs don't see direct 'added value' But I'd hate to be the CIO having to tell teh CFO his budget just for Microsoft will increase 40% a year compunded on top of normal budget outlays (hardware, staff, etc) Ouch

    5. Re:Cost MS OSs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since when do typical "home users" run something other than 98, 98se, Me that would require them to buy a full license instead of the XP Home upgrade price ($99)? Do you have a brain?

      Me is a patch to a patch (98SE) to a patch (98) to a Patch (OSR 2) of Win95 which was a fairly significant rewrite of Windows 3.x shell with some enancements to Win386 enhanced mode (plug and pray, integrated Win32 support, etc). XP is the first time since joining the PC world in early 1992 that I've thought the cost to upgrade was actually reflected in a technology improvement.

      Considering that if I didn't have other means of obtaining OSes (Campus License Agreement), I would have had to pay $396+tax (Win3.1 to 95 to 98 to 98SE to ME) to have my system up and running with ME, the extra $99 to XP Home is insult to injury. Is ME worth $297+tax over 95 to me? I don't think so.

  8. Good M$ by mnordstr · · Score: 1

    That's great! Let them increase their prices as much as they want. That will cause people to look for better and cheaper solutions, like Linux.

    It's kind of weird that they don't realize that increasing prices will do just that, and it will make more and more people download pirated copies of their products.

    But hey, that's not my problem... Keep up the good work M$, soon you will make the open source community the market leader.

    1. Re:Good M$ by mydigitalself · · Score: 1

      as far as office productivity goes, linux is not a better solution. it may be cheaper, and to us who can grep, awk, sed and bind - yeah its a better operating system.

      but time and time again i keep saying that linux still does not have an integrated end-to-end productivity package like microsoft office.

      pre-flame:

      1) please don't say star office. just don't. this whole shell thing that takes over my desktop just to view a document. t-h-e v-e-r-y s-l-o-w i-n-t-e-r-f-a-c-e.

      2) outlook. ok. outlook may suck at times, by why is ximian copying its interface? because my mother can use it. secondly. its all very well for ximian to make an email client that looks like outlook, but the corporate backbone to outlook is exchange. yes exchange can suck big time at times, but regardles, i can schedule a meeting with 8 people all ot once by just checking their diary availability, so i don't have to email each one to ask them when they are available.

      so where i am getting at is that this is probably the best time for the linux community to pull together and develop towards the goal of developing an end-to-end-idiot-proof-my-mother-can-use-it-and-a- monkey-can-administer-it set of applications. then people will be able to have BOTH a CHEAPER and a BETTER solution - like linux!

    2. Re:Good M$ by mnordstr · · Score: 1

      1) please don't say star office. just don't. this whole shell thing that takes over my desktop just to view a document. t-h-e v-e-r-y s-l-o-w i-n-t-e-r-f-a-c-e.

      If you want lightweight, try AbiWord. It's fast, reliable and easy to use. Come to think of it, it's alot easier than Word (which in my opinion is one of the most difficult programs ever invented).
      And the KOffice package is quite cool, and after a few versions it might become excellent. If you think StarOffice is slow, you might want to try out OpenOffice.org, which is the new open source version of StarOffice (might be faster, haven't tried it out yet).

      ...i can schedule a meeting with 8 people all ot once by just checking their diary availability...

      Ever heard of Netscape Calendar? That's the same thing, you can schedule meeting in others calendars, etc.

      And the most beautiful thing is that if you don't like something in a product, you can always edit the code and recompile. Think about how many lives (or nerves) one could have saved if Outlook was open source. You don't like viruses? Here's a nice little patch that disables all the nasty security holes in your Outlook.

    3. Re:Good M$ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      vi is good enough for all my office needs (:

    4. Re:Good M$ by styopa · · Score: 2
      please don't say star office


      The poster mnordstr gave some ideas for replacements for office but missed one that I consider very important, WordPerfect. The WordPerfect Suite has been on par with MS for quite a while now. In fact, MS copied the interface from, what was at the time Novell, WordPerfect Suite 6 and Claris Works. And yes, QuattroPro has finally recovered from the beating that it took from Excel 95 and 97. Oh, and they have a Linux version.

      Outlook does more than suck at times. It destroys productivity by being an insecure application.
      --
      Disclamer - Opinion of Person
  9. Microsoft is fully in it's right by Aceticon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's a new product. They can set whatever price (and price policy) they want.

    It's up to Microsoft's costumers to decide if it's more cost efficient to upgrade to Windows XP or take any other path (including not-upgrading and stop having support in some years time or start a migration process of some or all systems to other operating systems with different cost structures)

    As i see it a more expensive Windows just increases the number of situations in which it's cheaper to migrate/implement to/in another operating system and contract a System Administrator for that OS instead of a Windows System Admin.

    1. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by Masem · · Score: 5, Informative

      With MS now legally declared as a monopoly, they no longer have the right to set whatever price they want for their product, because a monopoly suggests that there are no market forces in place that will cause a supply-demand-like effect to take place. (Again, it's not illegal to hold a monopoly, only to abuse it's position). It's expected that the next legal phase of the MS/DOJ will include looking at the licensing costs; if it is determined that at the current costs, MS is earning more than a reasonable profit per copy sold, someone's going to have hell to pay.

      --
      "Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
      "I can see my house from here!" - ST:
    2. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by baptiste · · Score: 5, Insightful
      It's a new product. They can set whatever price (and price policy) they want.

      True, but they also are bundling Office XP - pretty much requiring people to buy new Office licenses to even PARTICIPATE in the new OS license program - which is their right but as a monopoly, its an unfair practice. I mean seriously - how many of you out there think moving from Office 2K to Office XP is worth teh cost? Hell Office 97 to 2K wasn't much of an improvement. But to require Office purchases to participate in the OS volume license is borderlne criminal. This quote was most chilling:

      Several recounted similar stories about Microsoft pressuring them to upgrade Office versions more frequently.

      "They kept bringing up the BSA (Business Software Alliance) and insinuating about software audits," said one technology manager. "We got the message, all right: Upgrade to Office XP or else."

      Microsoft has finally decided to use their monopoly to try and boost earnings in a crashing economy and at some point they push too far and FORCE people to look elsewhere and possibly TRY to move to other platforms. It'll hurt them.

      For example, if you have Office licenses for ALL yoru PCs (many companies do) but realize that your coders don't really NEED Office - its just for browsing stuff sent from mgmt - you may start looking into alternatives, either StarOffice or even simple doc readers and then cut your licensing WAY back - this who fiasco will either vastly increase IT costs for companies (and thus costs to us the consumers) or will blow up in Microsofts face as companies finally throw up their hands and tell MS to GTH.

    3. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by slow_flight · · Score: 1

      The point is that you DON'T get to decide whether to upgrade or not.

      Eventually you will need a new computer. Because of the influence MSoft has over Dell (et al) you cannot buy a machine without Windows installed. Therefore, you are coerced into buying an OEM license for XP. You can't (legally) down grade that license to the Win 98 (or whatever) license that you had on your older machine. Even if you could, you probably wouldn't be able to get Win9x drivers for the hardware in your new machine. You're left with a Hobson's choice of either sucking it up and using XP, or trying to find someone that can/will still sell you a Win9x license.

      This is the insiduous power of a monopoly.

      --

      Karma: Professionally Doomed (mostly affected by inability to keep opinions to self)
    4. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by frleong · · Score: 1
      True, but they also are bundling Office XP - pretty much requiring people to buy new Office licenses to even PARTICIPATE in the new OS license program - which is their right but as a monopoly, its an unfair practice. I mean seriously - how many of you out there think moving from Office 2K to Office XP is worth teh cost? Hell Office 97 to 2K wasn't much of an improvement. But to require Office purchases to participate in the OS volume license is borderlne criminal.
      What are you talking about? My company has joined MS Select last year and I know more or less what is happening. MS is forcing people to either upgrade now to Office XP or you'll have to pay for the full price next time when you want to upgrade. The marketing folks at MS call this Software Assurance (SA) and you need to pay for about 25% of the full product each year but if any upgrade exists, you will be immediately eligible for it. However, you don't need to pay for this SA tax if Office 97/2000 is sufficient to you and I believe you will never need unless all in a sudden people move to a completely different paradigm.

      Your statement is false because Office XP is neither bundled (except in those OEM cases) nor MS forces you to buy Office XP when you buy Windows XP. In fact, they allow you to separate buying SA for Office XP from buying SA for Windows XP. In any case, my company has decided not to buy join any SA program because we feel Office 2000 is OK for the next five years.

      Notice that this is a major problem for MS. Little has improved since Office 95 (most of the menu items are the same, with the exception of much better Unicode support) and forcing people to upgrade seems the only viable and quick way of MS to get cash flow in.

      --
      ¦ ©® ±
    5. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by rkischuk · · Score: 1

      For example, if you have Office licenses for ALL yoru PCs (many companies do) but realize that your coders don't really NEED Office - its just for browsing stuff sent from mgmt - you may start looking into alternatives, either StarOffice or even simple doc readers and then cut your licensing WAY back - this who fiasco will either vastly increase IT costs for companies (and thus costs to us the consumers) or will blow up in Microsofts face as companies finally throw up their hands and tell MS to GTH.

      Alternately, Microsoft will sue the creators of the document readers, contending that they are a means of circumventing encryption. M$ will then promptly begin selling Office reader licenses for $150 a pop and raise full featured Office prices even higher.

      MS has shown time and again they don't mind screwing people into upgrading. If you search on their web site long enough to find their advice on how to read an Office 2k document under Office 97, they tell you that no enhancement to your Office is needed - simply ask the sender to convert it to Office97 format and re-send it.

      In other words - upgrade, or else we will force you to hassle your clients/co-workers and make you look unpofessional.

      --
      Seen any BadMarketing lately?
    6. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      Where do people keep getting these ideas?
      Changing or adding another office suite wil not Vastly increase the cost of IT to companies... This would happen only if that companies IT staff are worthless or horribly under trained and mential amobea. And good IT/IS person can switch to using/supporting any software application within weeks of playing with it. (NOTE: roll out the new stuff to IT first.. then they'll know it before they need to support it.)

      It costs very little to change from one suite/os/program to another, and only those that are in the business of lying to stock holders or management in order to keep their jobs would say that is has a high cost or price tag.

      If you hire talented people to begin with, you dont have the problem of migration from one environment to another. (and you'd already have several Linux or BSD servers running already to keep costs down or to give your company extra operatability from retired equipment. (3 free webservers.. and we were denied any capitol spending ... when asked by corperate we said, "We are using a no-cost solution on retired hardware" the CTO is so pleased we are going present our solution to all IT departments next Jan (They dont know it's linux yet... hehehehe and the CTO doesnt care, he prefer's results above all else)

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    7. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by why-is-it · · Score: 3, Informative

      It costs very little to change from one suite/os/program to another, and only those that are in the business of lying to stock holders or management in order to keep their jobs would say that is has a high cost or price tag.

      Spoken like someone who has never rolled out a new application to the lusers in marketing.

      Time is worth something you know, and if the lusers are trying to figure out how to routine tasks with the new app, and calling the hell desk, they are not doing whatever it is that they are paid to do. Clearly there is a cost involved when you change the environment.

      --
      *** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
    8. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      Let's see..

      Rolled out Win2K
      Rolled out Office 2K
      Rolled out completely new Sales Demographics system
      Rolled out new System for sending in orders..

      That's this year... No problems other than users whining.

      Rule#1 - dont let them whine. Tell them it's changed and there's nothing they are going to do about it, they can either learn it or not.

      Document, if you teach Fred in Sales how to open his email 3 times and on #4 you tell him that you'll get around to him later, when your boss comes bitching you say Hey, I showed him 3 times in formal training. I cant hand-hold everyone that's too lasy to learn. Throws the problem back at the Luser.

      In the time of 1 year I have marketing and sales people in 3 offices used to changes. (change constantly little things to justkeep them on their toes. answer hones questions but ignore the lazy bastards.

      It works great and has given me 2 Corperate Achievement awards this year.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    9. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is bob from marketing... tell me how to log in to slashdot or I'll cut your balls of...

    10. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by Rogerborg · · Score: 2
      • how many of you out there think moving from Office 2K to Office XP is worth teh cost? Hell Office 97 to 2K wasn't much of an improvement

      I haven't even bothered paying $0 to upgrade my pirated copy of Office '97 to a pirated copy of Office 2K. I doubt if I'll bother paying $0 to upgrade to Office XP either. There's just no benefit for me.

      Morality question: I had a crisis of conscience over using a warez Office '97, and went to StarOffice for a while. Then I had to wipe my drive when it spat some sand. The only reason that I installed Office '97 on the clean machine was that I didn't have a backup of StarOffice, and it was marginally quicker to reach out and grab a burned warez Office '97 than to download StarOffice again.

      Work through the morality of that. Should I burn for using the warez Office '97 before switching to StarOffice? Does switching to StarOffice mitigate the crime? Is switching back worse than doing it in the first place? Does "apathy" count as a defence, considering that Microsoft have already lost the sale, i.e. there is no way that they are getting any money from me? Black, white, or shades of gray?

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    11. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by n-baxley · · Score: 1

      I work for a consulting company of just under 100 people, most of whom are developers. The partners of our company having begun testing Star and Open Office themselves to see if we can move to them and get awway from the killer licensing costs.

    12. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should at least include the effort you expend on pondering these grave issues into your TCO balance... perhaps you should go for SO after all.

    13. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by lala · · Score: 1

      True, but then he also should count the time spent on telling everybody how much cheaper this solution is. ;-)

    14. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 1

      If you hire talented people to begin with, you dont have the problem of migration from one environment to another.

      Judging by your post, I have to assume that while you might be talented, you lack the grasp of the real world costs of IT, and that will keep you from going very far. Maybe you assume that a bunch of sharp guys can work all weekend (un-reembursed) and do conversions 'for free'. But, in the real world, even straight-forward upgrades require shitloads of project planning overhead, testing, contingency plans, extra contract staff, reduced operational support, two sets of verified backup tapes, help-desk training and overstaffing, user training, and so on. The alternative is the typical clusterfucked half-finished upgrade that makes the users shiver in fear when IT approaches their desks.

      I do agree that people overstate the difficulty of moving from MS Office to Some Other Office. There's a huge cultura gap there, but that is NOT the real problem.

      If you actually got out and saw what people were running on their desktops, you'd see shitloads of vertical applications, inhouse stuff hacked together in VB and Access and Excel macros and so on. That will throw a wrench in any transition plan -- it could even stop your Win98 to 2000 upgrade dead in the water, and the assumption is those two OSes are 99% compatible. Hundreds of large customers are still running OS/2 because of legacy apps.

      So, then you need to go back and rewrite everything (web or java to cover your ass this time), and you find that some Access app that Fred in Marketing hacked together in his spare time ends up costing you $20,000. When some department just spent $50K on a some POS vertical app, they are not going to let you take it away to save $200 in MS licencing fees. Or, you could go with Wine, but that's lots more testing, and you know up front that not everything's going to work that way.

      In short, saying any type of upgrade is easy if you have the right people doesn't make any sense. The right people will take time and money to do the job right.

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
    15. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      > It's a new product. They can set whatever price
      > (and price policy) they want.

      Uh, no, they can't. They're a monopoly. Certain
      business policies that are perfectly legal to
      normal businesses are prohibited *by law* to
      monopolies.

      Chris Mattern

    16. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by murphyslaw · · Score: 1

      I agree that Microsoft can set whatever price they want. However, from what I've seen so far (and I don't think it will change anytime soon) every time they come out with an 'upgrade' it's worse than the product before it. Yes, I do have to admit that for the time being MSWindows is the best operating system out there that can be used for nearly everything and by nearly everyone, but I will not go as far as to say that just because it's newer that it is better. I am running on a 400mhz system on windows 95, and have found no reason to upgrade in the seven years I've used it (95, not the 400mhz). The only system differance that I am aware of with newer versions is the more recent crashes and security holes. Again this is just my oppinion, and I'm sure that most people don't agree, and MS hates me for not rushing out to buy something that there is no need for.

    17. Re:Microsoft is fully in it's right by mitheral · · Score: 1

      Microsft already gives away a Word document reader that works under windows. I guess they could start charging for it in the future.

  10. TIF web site worth a look by pubjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's worth taking a look at the visitor's area of the TIF web site:

    http://www.tif.co.uk/

    It certainly has an impressive list of members, including certain UK government departments such as the Inland Revenue.

    1. Re:TIF web site worth a look by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Over here in the netherlands the Department of Justice has also published a report on the rising cost of Microsoft licenese. note that this report just convers the licenses of the department itself and is not linked to any investigation in the mis-use of a dominant position in the market.

  11. I'm angry and disgusted... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm very angry and upset over the WTC and Pentagon buildings being used as terrorist targets. Countless innocent lives were lost because of this atrocious act.

    The terrorists could have instead chosen One Microsoft Way in Redmond, WA, as well as 345 Park Avenue in San Jose, CA, and a) still gotten their message of terror across, and b) done the American (and world) communities a favour by eliminating NOT so innocent lives.

    Oh well, maybe next time, bin Laden!

    1. Re:I'm angry and disgusted... by unitron · · Score: 2

      Microsoft is probably as good an example of capitalist arrogance as any, and an attack on them is probably as good for publicity as anything else, so have they been subject to any terrorist actions (other than cream pie attacks)? How does their "victim of terrorist attacks" status compare to that of other biggies, such as General Electric, General Motors, AOLTimeWarner, etc.?

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    2. Re:I'm angry and disgusted... by mamba-mamba · · Score: 1

      Your post, which I hope is a joke, is in extremely poor taste.

      If it is not a joke then you are getting a little too wound-up over something that doesn't warrant it. No matter how much you don't approve of Microsoft and whoever is at 345 Park Ave in San Jose, death is out of all proportion to whatever wrong you think they did to you.

      It could also be that you are just saying extreme things in the hope of provoking a response from other readers, in which case I guess I played right into your hands. Silly me.

      MM
      --

      --
      By including this sig, the copyright holders of this work or collection unreservedly place it in the public domain.
  12. The Problem by zpengo · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Part of the problem in all of this is that changing to a "subscription" service is a brilliant financial decision, and Microsoft isn't going to give up their tactics without a fight.

    People have been complaining about Microsoft for the past fifteen years or so. Unfortunately, Microsoft products have been of a reasonably good quality, and people like them, so pirating their software has gone on for just about that long as well.

    Piracy means that not only the original owner gets to use it, but also a few of his friends. Microsoft may think that's a bad thing, but all it has done is secure their place as *the* operating system, the office suite, the web server, etc., because so many people use it, even if they're not all paying customers. MS would not have its current market share if it were not for piracy.

    With these new tactics to extract money from citizens, the only thing they're going to accomplish is that Microsoft will no longer be in the hands of Joe Sixpack, who will then contemplate Linux, BSD, AtheOS, BeOS, or other operating systems that cost less than a few limbs.

    In addition, the percentage of the workforce with Microsoft experience will decline; It's easy enough to learn ASP or whatever when you can install it at home, but not so easy when you can't touch it.

    They're shooting themselves in the foot, and that's probably a good thing.

    --


    Got Rhinos?
    1. Re:The Problem by Guns+n'+Roses+Troll · · Score: 0

      Anna Kournikova is God on Earth.

    2. Re:The Problem by slow_flight · · Score: 1

      "Joe Six-pack" is NOT going to buy Linux or any other alternative until he can go to K-Mart and get a version of Deer Hunter (or whatever) that will work under Linux. We're stuck with Windows for now.

      --

      Karma: Professionally Doomed (mostly affected by inability to keep opinions to self)
    3. Re:The Problem by alen · · Score: 1

      You keep on dreaming. Joe Six pack doesn't want to know what TCP/IP is and he doesn't want to learn command line or any shell scripting. He simply want to turn his machine on and play a game, surf the internet or send an email.

      If installing software he simply wants to click OK or NEXT and that's it. Unzipping and compiling is foreign to him. If you can't throw the CD in and have it play automatically it's too hard and he doesn't want to be bothered.

      Joe Six Pack doesn't care about computers like we do. He simply wants to enjoy his machine without having to know 1500 commands and their arguments.

    4. Re:The Problem by demaria · · Score: 2

      That's not just a Joe Sixpack thing. I don't want to do that either. I don't want to fight my machine, or learn lots of non-standard command line arguments.

    5. Re:The Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Users' sharing of Microsoft output has gone on since their first basic compilers on the MIITS Altair(1976). See Gates' Open Letter To Hobbyists. Best quote, out of context at any rate: "Hardware must be paid for, but software is something to share."


      Arguably, the preponderance of users loaning each other copies of MS's stuff has benefitted them: most of the users I know don't buy their own copies of windows, and yet their systems are still controlled by Redmond's decision makers.


      It seems likely that given their complete market saturation, the rapid development of multiple free competitor products in many services, and a need to keep traditional non-free software sales as sources of revenue, they need to be getting medieval on consumers.

    6. Re:The Problem by ethereal · · Score: 1

      I think Joe Six Pack's needs are more likely to be met by the PlayStation 3 than by anything in the future from Microsoft :)

      --

      Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and

    7. Re:The Problem by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      That isn't just Joe Sixpack. That's also Marvin the Hacker with 25 years of programming under his belt. Hey, not all of us want to learn the trivia of our operating systems; we just want the goddamn things to install and work as they should with minimal effort so we can get onto the things that make us money and buy us toys.

      I don't play with Linux because I *like* screwing around with bad installation procedures or hacking config files; I do so because if the shit hits the fan I can generally fix the problem and get on with life, which isn't true with Windows. The more I can ignore the details and do serious, money-making things (or not-so-serious, game-playing things) the happier I am. And the first person who makes a brain-dead install for Linux on the order of Windows will be the one who truly starts Linux spreading across the desktop.

      There's no reason why we can't have it both ways, especially not under Linux.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    8. Re:The Problem by Alien+Being · · Score: 0
      I just spent 3 hours playing Nascar Heat (Windows vers) online with a bunch of friends who are of the Joe 6-pack type.


      one of them: Why is the game all jittery? This isn't supposed to happen, not with windows 98. Lets all reboot.


      me: click start->programs->dos prompt

  13. Bill Gates - billionaire terrorist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bill Gates announced today that he is stepping down as head of Microsoft Corp. to become a billionaire terrorist.

    "I am responsible for more crashed Windows than any other human in history, so I fee quite qualified for the job, and I already have a legion of fanatical followers too." Mr. Gates told reporters.

    White House officials expressed regret at the decision, but are not worried. "We are confident that anything they develop will need at least two service packs before we will have to consider it a threat. In fact, if he wants we will drop him and his engineering team off in Afghanistan. If they can do there what they have done to companies in the US then this will be very positive for the USA." claimed an anonymous source.

    Mr. Gates said that he would begin his campaign of terror by first initiating a hostile takeover of Afghanistan, the releasing Windows XP.

    Please note that no disrespect to the victims of terrorism is intended here

  14. What XP effectively is doing... by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Is fragmenting Windows over numerous releases. W95 here, W98 there, WME elsewhere, NT and 2000 other places.


    Irony: Remember when institutions bought into this myth, that with Microsoft they could standardize on one stable platform? The last laugh is thinking of all these institutions dropping huge $$$ (or £££) on upgrades (not just license fees, but the overhead to "upgrade" all workstations.


    I've seen some graphical representations of Windows penetration and W95 still holds a significant chunk. Expect XP to have slow penetration, particularly as institutions are doing a lot of belt tightening. If W95 or W98 works, leave it at that. We just upgraded our workstations from W95 to W98 (btw, I've got a bone to pick with anyone who says W98 is more stable than W95, it BSOD's as often at work as it does on my 2 year old laptop) and it'll be probably a decade before anyone around here sees XP.


    IMHO I wouldn't be buying MS stock based upon high anticipated sales of XP. Maybe base it on the acceptance of their XBox or something else.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:What XP effectively is doing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is fragmenting Windows over numerous releases. W95 here, W98 there, WME elsewhere, NT and 2000 other places.

      Irony: Remember when institutions bought into this myth, that with Microsoft they could standardize on one stable platform?


      You do realize that XP/.NET server represent a unified code base for the first time? When the server version releases in a few months, the first XP service pack will unify all the code.

    2. Re:What XP effectively is doing... by ackthpt · · Score: 1
      the first XP service pack will unify all the code.


      Won't matter beans to us, we just use the OS to run desktop applications i.e. terminal emulators, word processors, spreadsheets. This in an organization which employs ~40,000.


      The long awaited merger of all things Microsoft has missed the boat by a couple years. Imagine the impact if this had been rolled out 2 years ago, while everyone was tech-happy and throwing money around. Now we've become pragmatic. If we don't see an immediate or even short term need, we're not even going to pay attention.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    3. Re:What XP effectively is doing... by kin_korn_karn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Corporate IT won't be buying XP to put on old machines. They'll be stuck with it when they buy new machines to replace those old boxes, or if they buy new servers.

      I know plenty of MS people who buy new servers that have Win2k on them, but they wipe it and put NT 4 server on it, because they have a site license for that. There's nothing in the XP scheme that says you can't do that, so XP will have high sales numbers, but low use numbers.

      [Oh, and Win98 IS more stable, if you have SE and know how to tweak it. Windows always sucks when it's not properly configured.]

    4. Re:What XP effectively is doing... by ackthpt · · Score: 1
      We've been buying lots of Dell PC's over the last 6 months and they're all coming with 98 SE, even with a little hologram stuck on the case. So long as M$ continues to support/sell licenses this will the the case.


      Corporate buyers can certainly flex the same muscle we do, by requesting systems cofigured as they wish. Microsoft will truly be viewed as an evil monopoly the day they insist you can't!


      At this moment, Microsoft's chief competitor is thier own legacy. To cut off their foot stuck in the 95/98 bear trap to forge onward, that's their question to answer.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    5. Re:What XP effectively is doing... by StrawberryFrog · · Score: 3, Informative
      What XP effectively is doing .. is fragmenting Windows over numerous releases.

      Uh, no. Windows is *already* a fragmented platform. I know, I've had to write software that runs on "windows" and spent time debugging it on 98, Nt4 and Win2K.

      XP signals the end of the 95->98 codebase, and will eventually bring everyone onto the NT/2000 codebase.

      Believe me, this is a good thing (I've worked with my buggy programs on both. The NT platform is far more stable under condtions of stray pointers).

      Linux, BSD, Atheos and other open OS's taking over the world would would be a better thing, but that doesn't make XP a bad thing, fragmentation-wise.

      --

      My Karma: ran over your Dogma
      StrawberryFrog

    6. Re:What XP effectively is doing... by SIGFPE · · Score: 2

      Running W95 or W98 on workstations? This is a troll right? Nobody uses an OS without memory protection as a workstation do they? I'm no great fan of MS but W2K does satisfy some of the criteria to be called an OS - for example it manages memory and prevents applications writing over each other's memory. W95 and W98 provide little protection. In fact all applications share half of their address space. This makes W95/8 great for single applications like games playing. But you're not seriosuly trying to tell us you use these not-quite-OS's for workstations?

      --
      -- SIGFPE
    7. Re:What XP effectively is doing... by NumberSyx · · Score: 2


      (btw, I've got a bone to pick with anyone who says W98 is more stable than W95, it BSOD's as often at work as it does on my 2 year old laptop)



      It always amazes me how when a new MS product comes out, all the beta testers swear on thier mothers grave it is better than the last version and we are finally rid of the BSOD. But then it hit the real users. Low and Behold, nothing has changed, WinME is worse than Win98SE and even Win2K sucks and needs rebooting every once in awhile. I have seen no indication it is going to be any different with XP. I will definitly not be falling for the Upgrade hype this time around, I have informed my Wife she will have to stick with Win2K, Office2K and VB6 on her main machine and Win98, Office97 and VB5 on her laptop. There will be no upgrade this year. As for me, I guess I will go download the 2.4.10 kernel and ruin my 127 day uptime.


      --

      "Our products just aren't engineered for security,"
      -Brian Valentine,VP in charge of MS Windows Development

    8. Re:What XP effectively is doing... by Rogerborg · · Score: 2
      • I've seen some graphical representations of Windows penetration and W95 still holds a significant chunk

      Yup, and that's not necessarily bad for M$. My employer deploys brand new Win95 laptops and NT 4 desktops. My own desktop has a "Windows 2000 Professional" sticker on the side. It was bought that way and we binned the license and paid for an NT 4 license because we know all the issues, the box works as well as it has need to, and the costs of supporting different OSes is still (just) higher than the cost of buying two licenses and throwing one away.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    9. Re:What XP effectively is doing... by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      Lucky you. Apparently yourself, or someone else with insight, determines standard configuration and deployment. Imagine what happens where purchasing agents, accountants, and even politics get involved.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    10. Re:What XP effectively is doing... by scrytch · · Score: 2

      WinME is worse than Win98SE and even Win2K sucks and needs rebooting every once in awhile

      I have had to reboot my Win2k laptop a few times lately because:

      1. A game locked up, setting the whole screen black, and i couldn't see task manager to select and kill it. What kills me is that it did reset the video just fine when I hit ctl-alt-del, then went back to black when task manager came up. I'll blame win2k for that.

      2. The backlight on my lcd screen went out, and I had to power it down for a few minutes. Obvious hardware problem.

      3. I changed the netmask on my network adaptor. Yes, that makes you reboot. Astonishing level of brain damage, I will blame windows for that.

      4. I installed a service pack that replaced among other things, kernel.dll. Hard to avoid a reboot there.

      Other than that, I've installed games, web servers, webserver extensions and patches, and oodles of miscellaneous language compilers. All I've noticed is that I keep having to kill runaway command.exe processes that seem to spawn whenever I run a cygwin shell, and occasionally stop the index server because it's grinding away while I'm doing other I/O intensive work. The uptime is astonishing even while I am beating the hell out of this machine as an administrator, I'm not a highly competent NT admin, and this machine isn't even certified by the manufacturer for win2k.

      (BTW, while I'm going on, I will air one gripe/question: how the hell do I get internet connection sharing to gate my dialup to the vmware host-only adaptor without 1) re-ip'ing the adaptor, and 2) not bombing with a cryptic error pertaining to the new adaptor ip already being in use when it wasn't even close? following the directions on vmware's site to the letter results in this error...)

      --
      I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
    11. Re:What XP effectively is doing... by Detritus · · Score: 2

      It gets worse. I've seen Windows 9x used for servers.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
  15. In a free country... by Bjarke+Roune · · Score: 1

    ... should not the producer/owner of an item/piece of software get to decide the price others must pay in order to obtain it? It seems to me that anything else amounts to expropiation, where the government takes something and it is the government who takes that also gets to decide the price for doing so. Even if Microsoft has been so evil as to make a product many people want to use, I don't think that's fair.

    (even though I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with it, don't tell me that you have no alternative. I can't believe any Slashdot reader doesn't know what open source or Free software is. If there is no open source/Free software that does what you need, get to work making one or stop complaining. Doing anything else just shows you aren't REALLY serious about Free software (though with open source the lines are not so clear))

    Don't mod me down just because this is Slashdot and you don't like hearing what I'm saying.

    1. Re:In a free country... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... should not the producer/owner of an item/piece of software get to decide the price others must pay in order to obtain it? Not if the producer/owner has a monopoly...it's the law, stupid. If your idea holds, then the Standard oil would still be a monopoly and we would be paying $20/gallon of gas.

    2. Re:In a free country... by GospelHead821 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Technically, in a free country, no producer really does get to set the price for his product. He can set it at whatever he pleases, but market forces dictate that he should set it as such a point where demand meets supply (ie: the producer is willing to sell X units when they are priced at A, and the consumers are willing to purchase X units at price A). In a monopoly system, because there are no alternatives, the demand curve no longer slopes down as sharply, or in the extreme case, it does not slope down at all. People "need" an operating system, and the lack of viable alternatives forces them to purchase the monopoly's products. As a result, the monopoly can set prices higher than a free market system would allow, because there is no competetive force among producers to bid down the price of the product.

      --
      Virtue finds and chooses the mean.
      Aristotle, Ethica Nichomachea
    3. Re:In a free country... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, where this "free country" every one keeps talking about. Here in my country, we have laws against a lot of things. We have laws against theft, murder, playing the stereo too loud, and abusing a monopoly. I thought we had a free country here in the U.S. of A, so I walked into my neighbor's house, took his computer and his woman. I said "Hey, it's a free country." He called the cops. Turns out there are laws against theft.

    4. Re:In a free country... by _johnnyc · · Score: 1

      Obviously, there are way more windows admins out there convincing IT depts there are no choices, and in shops heavy on Visual Basic and the like there may not be.

      Fact is, there is no competition, because if there was, MS would not be pricing XP the way it is. And this time limit to get a decent upgrade price is probably because they're worried they may have competition early next year. The pace of development on linux and KDE ought to have them worried, but for now, they want their clients locked in for another few years

    5. Re:In a free country... by Bjarke+Roune · · Score: 1

      In a free country there must be laws against theft. This is exactly my point.

    6. Re:In a free country... by Bjarke+Roune · · Score: 1

      "Not if the producer/owner has a monopoly...it's the law, stupid."

      Please think about what it means when I say "in a free country". You seem beyound help, so I'm not going to bother explaining it to you, though perhaps you will surprise me.

    7. Re:In a free country... by ALuddy · · Score: 1

      > ... should not the producer/owner of an item/piece of software get to decide the price others must pay in order to obtain it?

      ... should not the purchaser/owner of an item/piece of software get to decide what they want to do with it after they have purchased it?

      No, in fact, Microsoft (and other software vendors, including (amusingly enough) RMS and the FSF) rely on copyright law and/or contract law to restrict what the buyer can do. Otherwise I could (on the one hand) buy a copy of MS Office XYZ, and then burn enough copies to give out to the trick-or-treaters on Haloween, or (on the other hand) sell my new closed source office suite, based on all the code I took from KDE.

      No, in fact, it's not a truly free economy, and most of the people don't really want it to be. Deal with it.

      ALuddy

    8. Re:In a free country... by Bjarke+Roune · · Score: 1

      >

      Not if they have entered into a deal that says they do not, obviously.

  16. I'd like to set the record straight by Bob+Abooey · · Score: 0, Troll

    As many of you know, I work for Microsoft in the Import/Export division, and I'm a member of the liason team that works directly with the UK division. While stories like this tend to generate buzz for the website that posts them, I can assure you it is a pure fabrication of the truth. The truth is that while there are additional UK surcharges we only put them their as a request of the British Parliment, and we then provide a non pro quo quid subsidy to counteract the charge, along with giving an actual discount.

    This business practice, while on the surface seems a bit odd, was negotiated by the UK magistrate of foreign exports in good faith, I should add. We are not the bad guys here, we are simply doing what our customer wants us to do, and while we are happy that the UK government is interested in pushing our software onto the general public, I can assure you it is only because it's in the best interests of the British people, and is no way unethical or illegal. Of course even if the British were to pay an additional premium for the software, it would be negated by their increased productivity, thus making this a moot issue anyways.

    What most people fail to understand is that accounting procedure are easy to misunderstand when you are dealing with foreign countries. I hope this clears things up.

    --

    All the best,
    --Bob

  17. It's a free market... by slim · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm not a big MS fan, but frankly, they're operating in a free market, and it's their right to charge whatever they like. If you think it's too much, don't buy it.

    To any business that's become reliant on MS technology, and thinks these price hikes might cost them dearly, I'd say this: This is what Richard Stallman warned you about 20 years ago. If you rely on proprietary software, belonging to a third party, you're putting yourself in a position where that third party has you by the nuts.

    In future, leave yourself an escape route: at the very least make sure your business' IT is based on open protocols, and aim to use software which allows you to flit from support suppier to support supplier at will (at present OSS is the only kind of software I can think of which allows this).

    1. Re:It's a free market... by gorilla · · Score: 2
      To any business that's become reliant on MS technology, and thinks these price hikes might cost them dearly, I'd say this: This is what Richard Stallman warned you about 20 years ago. If you rely on proprietary software, belonging to a third party, you're putting yourself in a position where that third party has you by the nuts.

      This was hardly a flash of insight. 20 years ago IBM was near the end of it's anti-trust case, and it was clear that they used the control of their mainframe software to control their competitors and customers. If he had said it 40 years ago, then it would be perceptive.

    2. Re:It's a free market... by jmu1 · · Score: 1

      The real problem is uneducated managers who take it upon themselves to make the real decisions.
      "Ooh! The latest, greatest from our richest(he is only one of the richest, but he must have done something right to get there) friend: Billy Gates! We must buy it! It must be of the utmost quality!"
      I work with several of these dolts. I should know. There is hardly, if ever any technical information reviewed. Only: "Will it work with what we have already?", "Will it work with the most expensive software?", etc etc ad nausia.
      No one but the informed care about proprietary this or open that. And well, the informed are only such because they aren't managers or decision makers.

    3. Re:It's a free market... by slow_flight · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hell, the challenge is to NOT buy it. If you want a brand name computer, you're going to pay for the XP OEM license whether you weant it or not. That's what it means to be a monopoly - they can pressure (coerce) manufacturers into putting Windows on EVERY box.

      --

      Karma: Professionally Doomed (mostly affected by inability to keep opinions to self)
    4. Re:It's a free market... by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Hell, the challenge is to NOT buy it.


      That's the truth. The last time I bought a Linux computer, with Linux pre-installed, I found out after I had received it that it came with a copy of Win98. At least it was a full version, so I may someday find a use for it. Somewhere.

      Perhaps.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    5. Re:It's a free market... by slim · · Score: 2

      Hell, the challenge is to NOT buy it. If you want a brand name computer, you're going to pay for the XP OEM license whether you weant it or not. That's what it means to be a monopoly - they can pressure (coerce) manufacturers into putting Windows on EVERY box.

      Pretty easy challenge: you can buy PCs with Linux preinstalled from both IBM and Compaq, among others. A couple of years ago that was not the case, and I can only assume that market forces drove these brand name computer manufacturers to provide Linux as an option. That's evidence of a free market economy working. If enough consumers started to demand it, I'm sure they'd start preinstalling a BSD, BeOS, etc. (not that I see that happening any time soon).

      NB: I'm a raving lefty; it actually pains me to be echoing post-Thatcher "the market will make everything right" dogma. But in this case, I think it's correct.

    6. Re:It's a free market... by why-is-it · · Score: 2

      Pretty easy challenge: you can buy PCs with Linux preinstalled from both IBM and Compaq, among others.

      Yes, but since IBM and Compaq (and others) have to pay a license to m$ for every PC they sell, whether it has an m$ OS installed on it or not, you have paid for XP, even though you did not get the media or license.

      That's evidence of a free market economy working.

      Really? I would have thought the opposite. This looks like predatory monopoly behaviour to me. If the market were really free, and really working, would m$ be able to demand their pound of flesh on every sale, regardless of what was actually sold?

      --
      *** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
    7. Re:It's a free market... by anshil · · Score: 1

      Try buying the notebook of your choice without financing microsoft against your will.

      Possible to get a notebook without ms? Yes there are some, but not the one of your choice, it's very hard to buy a notebook -without- buying a windows license, altough the first thing you want to do is to repartionate the harddisk in install the os of your choice.

      --

      --
      Karma 50, and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt.
    8. Re:It's a free market... by slim · · Score: 2

      Yes, but since IBM and Compaq (and others) have to pay a license to m$ for every PC they sell, whether it has an m$ OS installed on it or not, you have paid for XP, even though you did not get the media or license.

      AFAIK that is no longer the case. There was a big fuss about it a couple of years ago and I was under the impression the law had put a stop to it. If I'm wrong, I concede the point to you.

    9. Re:It's a free market... by Happy+Monkey · · Score: 1

      If it was so obvious, then all the more reason for people to have acted on it, either from Stallman's warning or from their own common sense.

      But they didn't.

      --
      __
      Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
    10. Re:It's a free market... by n-baxley · · Score: 1

      Now that they have been legally declared a monopoly, there are some definte strings attached to their open market-ness.

    11. Re:It's a free market... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AFAIK, it's still the case with most major OEMs. The first time the DOJ took MS to court, they ended up with a consent decree stating that MS could not force OEMs to pay for Windows on a "per-processor" basis. So Microsoft said "fine", and proceeded to charge OEMs on a per-unit of a particular model sold basis. Now, you would think that the OEMs could get around this by simply creating an identical machine and giving it a new model number and selling it with a different OS. But then you'd have to recall why the OEMs were paying per-processor licenses to begin with. Because Microsoft said so. Which is why the OEMs do most of the things they do. It would be nice to see the current case do away with all such coercion by MS, among other things.

    12. Re:It's a free market... by gorilla · · Score: 2
      But they did.

      In 1980 everything was propriatary. If you bought a Nova, you'd probably be running AOS. If you bought a PDP-11, you've probably be running RT-11 or it's descendants. If you bought a Pr1me, you'd be running Pr1mos. If you decided that your Pr1me wasn't right, and wanted to run the Nova instead, then you'd be totally stuffed. There was no easy way to get from one to the other without throwing everything away and starting again.

      By the late 80's and early 90's, every manufacturer had a version of Unix, or they were about to die. If you had a system running Solaris and decided that Sun weren't supporting you, you could run HP-UX on HP's instead.

      PC's became commodities, so if you didn't like your Dell hardware you can buy Compaq instead.

      While there is currently only one OS supplier for PC's, this is sitll markably better than the enviroment in 1980.

  18. Sun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    If Sun's marketing department are on the ball, there'll be a pallet of StarOffice CD's arriving on their doorstep tomorrow morning.

  19. I would like to make a comment about XP by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 1

    people are saying that you do not have to register your copy of WinXP, however, just because you are not telling MS anything about yourself when you get your Auth code from them, you are telling them about your computer. so instead of registering your personal info, you register your computer.

    just as bad as forced registration of personal info.

    --



    I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
  20. No positive replys to this comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    just goes to prove 99.99% of the people here are M$ Astroturfers.

    1. Re:No positive replys to this comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, tough stuff, just you. Back into your cube now, your boss needs his coffee.

  21. Win XP kills ghost? by baptiste · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I used to handle desktop support at a large company and dealt with the issue of rolling out new and replacement PCs. We used Symantec Ghost to blast our custom images onto machines so they arrived on a user's desk ready to go with all teh site licensed software, etc. It made deployments fairly easier and resulted in happier customers.

    With XP's new registration process - how is that going to work? Will you still be ABLE to ghost XP machines? WIll users have to handle the registration process on their own after the machine is delivered? God forbid they lose that license certifcate in the process. With previous versions of Windows you simply used Ghostwalker to update the settings and such. But this adds yet another step to an already tedious process.

    So does anyone who uses ghost to roll out systems have a plan or idea how they'll handle the onslaught of XP? Symantec has an article that basically says XP is Beta (not anymore!) and they'll have more info after release (none I cqan find) They say they were able to use ghost and ghost walker to clone an XP machine - but again, cloning (ie backing up) a system is one thing, making corporate images you can toss onto new systems is something else entirely... It'll be too bad if Microsofts zeal for $$$ trashes a program that saved countless IT depts thousands of hours in deployment time.

    1. Re:Win XP kills ghost? by alen · · Score: 1

      I used to roll out WIndows 2000 with Ghost 6 Enterprise. Instead of ghostwalker you had to use sysprep from microsoft. Worked great. For XP as far as I know if you buy the professional corporate version you won't have to register it. My guess is MS is charging more for it as a sort of a tax. They know some people will pirate it so they are charging more.

    2. Re:Win XP kills ghost? by nickiethemachine · · Score: 1

      nope. RIS is awesome! If you use the Server version of XP [I think it is called Server >net this week] you can RIS more then workstation images. RIS is the delivery method, however the images still need to be made. Also, there is an enterprise license available for companies.

      Ghost will be even more useful as companies adopt XP/.Net.

    3. Re:Win XP kills ghost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only XP Pro will support dual-processing (XP Home won't). That may not seem like much of an issue now, but multi-processing is likely to loom larger in the next few years, even for home users.

    4. Re:Win XP kills ghost? by rcharbon · · Score: 1

      If you're an Enterprise customer, you'll get a copy of XP with your Select disks that you can use to build images. If you're buying single licenses, you're SOL.

      Ir so we've been told. We'll see how it plays out.

  22. Re:Let me get this straight... by Anml4ixoye · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Ok, and?

    Do you expect us to not move on with out lives? To sit and tremble at every passing plane? To ogle at everyone who doesn't quite look like us? To dig shelters, build weapons, etc, etc?

    Get real. Some of us would like to take a break from what we are seeing. Just because there are other discussions going on does *NOT* mean that we have forgotten what happened. We are simply trying to move on with our lives so that we can function, and not let the terrorists win.

    Maybe you were trying to be crass with the MS comment, but I am tired of hearing comments like the first ones you mentioned. Let us not forgot, but please let us move on so we can function.

  23. Monopolies by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Monopolies have not such privileges. You can rant all what you want, but MS is a de facto monopoly, and it should be treated accordingly.

    In most cases monopolies are regulated and their prices are checked to make sure they don't abuse their power.

    To change in many case is not an option, MS is making sure it breaks all kind of programs that should work with its OS, keep formats secret so nobody can reliably predict how they behave and deprecates popular protocols that have been implemented widely outside MS control (Samba).

    MS won a monopoly position and it is not respecting its clients. The only way to make sure there is no abuse is goverment intervention of some kind.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:Monopolies by Roundeye · · Score: 1
      Monopolies have not such privileges. You can rant all what you want, but MS is a de facto monopoly, and it should be treated accordingly.

      Actually, Microsoft is a de jure monopoly. The Court ruled that Microsoft is a monopoly, and that ruling stands, regardless of what happens in the new penalty phase.

      --
      "Cause there's 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack, so why you complainin'?"
    2. Re:Monopolies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft is not a monopoly u fucking moron. Pull your head out of your ass.

  24. So? by Svartalf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Unless you get everybody and his dog to upgrade to it, that will matter little in the grand scheme of things. How many of those millions of people that have Windows that fueled the network effect for Windows and software that runs on it actually HAVE a machine XP will run on? How many will be able to afford to plunk down the cash for one, let alone XP? How many businesses are going to step forward like they did before (realize that W2K's not selling like they planned on it...) and upgrade to this with the much more expensive licensing, etc.

    Not a lot, when you think about it.

    Microsoft has saturated the market that made them a monopoly- either they need something more compelling than XP and Office 2000 (Which effectively dies on you if the OS thinks your hardware has changed- you have to update your license key and if MS thinks you're cheating, they'll charge you again for that software you paid for the privilege to use...).

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  25. Troll alert !! by AftanGustur · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Yes kiddies, this is what a troll looks like ...
    Darn,, where are those mod points when you realy need them ......

    --
    echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
  26. Windows Sucker Surcharge by smanschot · · Score: 1

    I remember from the ol' days there was something like a Unix Sucker Surcharge to all Unix products. How the world has changed!

    --
    :: LoveChess ::
  27. Intresting by rhost89 · · Score: 1

    Has anyone done a study of the bugs:code size:price point correlation??? It seems as the size of their OS increases, so do the bugs (features) and so does the price? Mabey were paying extra for these "features" and not the OS itself ;9

    --
    I will bend your mind with my spoon
    1. Re:Intresting by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

      Hmmm. Sounds kinda radical. Are you actually saying that as the size and complexity of a system increases, not only does the relative number of defects increase (even if only in a linear fashion; 10 percent of 100 being more than 10 percent of 10) but the amount of work and effort must also increase with the complexity of said system, resulting, in a capatalist system, with greater compensation? Hmmm. Don't think so. Of course complexity increases. People expect their computer to be able to do more out of the box. Five years ago, video playback was a gimmick. Now it's an expectation. Email was an affectation (amoungst the great unwashed, at least.) Now it's a standard communication tool. And so on. Of course you're paying for the 'features;' all the OS is supposed to do is sit between software and hardware; it's a translation layer.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  28. Are they forcing you? by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1, Troll

    I mean, really. Are they putting a gun to your head and saying "buy our next round of products or die Scum!"?

    No they are not. So what's the problem? You don't want to pay? Then don't use their software.
    It's as if some sheep genes are implanted into I.T. managers when they are hired.

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:Are they forcing you? by CaptainZapp · · Score: 2
      I mean, really. Are they putting a gun to your head and saying "buy our next round of products or die Scum!"?

      Nah, of course they're not.

      Actually you get a bonus when they provide you with a "free" software audit, for which you'll have to cough up the resources. If you don't want to go for their new and improved licensing plan, that is.

      This might be a bit costly and it might really drag on your nerves, but at least you're sure to be in full compliance with your license.

      Of course, as per your corporate license agreement, they can repeat that ad nauseum, or at least 'til you sign up for the new and improved plan.

      No need to thank me

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

    2. Re:Are they forcing you? by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 2, Informative

      yep, the same argument was used by Rochefeller's goons.

      "are we forcing you to buy are oil? no, we just have the best product to market as can be shown by how much people buy our product."

      yeah right, what ever.

      --



      I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    3. Re:Are they forcing you? by CaptainAlbert · · Score: 1

      > Are they putting a gun to your head and
      > saying "buy our next round of products or die
      > Scum!"?

      They don't have to. They know that the vast majority of businesses cannot afford to switch away from their products, because they'll lose compatibility with the rest of the world.

      All they have to do is subtly drop support for all their products which are older than, say, three years, and people are effectively forced to upgrade.

      They say "everyone wants a common platform" and "it's just what happens with technological progress". We have other names for it ;-)

      --
      These sigs are more interesting tha
    4. Re:Are they forcing you? by baptiste · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It's as if some sheep genes are implanted into I.T. managers when they are hired.

      Well, as an IT manager at a big corporation a few years ago, I can tell you that decisions like these (lagre scale licensing issues and software standards) are made MUCH higher up - the CIOs and their direct reports. The poor IT manager way on down trying to save $$$ in his budget for his small facility often has little choice. Been there, done that. 'Standardization' is a huge buzzword and Microsoft utilizes it to the hilt. If you decide to branch out and go with something different to save money in your budget (that would otehrwise have gone to the central site license group and then straight to Microsoft) you often are viewed as going against the grain, troublemaker, whatever. So unless you BEEN THERE, don't make such foolish statements. Yes, there are PLENTY of Microsoft sheep out there who rather than choosing Microsoft because they BELIEVE it to be better for their situation, choose because its what everyone else does. But also realize that often an IT managers' hands are tied from on high.

    5. Re:Are they forcing you? by slow_flight · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then don't use their software.

      Just try to buy a machine without it pre-installed. Good luck! You ARE forced to buy it if you want/need newer hardware and don't want to build your own.

      --

      Karma: Professionally Doomed (mostly affected by inability to keep opinions to self)
    6. Re:Are they forcing you? by biglig2 · · Score: 2

      But they can do this with the OEMs. What OS will come on the next laptop I buy? It'll be XP. So I need to support it. Then my users will start to want it, and I'll end up fighting with them, like I've done with Office 97 and 2000 and so on and so forth. We upgraded to office 97 because there were so many rogue copies about that the 95 users couldn't work as every tenth document wouldn't open. If I ever want to upgrade my Exchange 5.0 servers, what am I going to do? I can't buy 5.5 licenses any more and 2000 means AD...

      Now, if managment would listen to my plan to let me shoot just a couple of users as an example...

      Certainly these changes to MS's model will help alternative OS choices, such as Linux, but it's never a simple matter ot change. This locked-in-ness is a problem.

      My theory: I want an OS monopoly, because OS's are not important to me, software is important to me, but I want it to be open source so no-one owns it. ;-)

      --
      ~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
    7. Re:Are they forcing you? by JabberWokky · · Score: 2
      This might be a bit costly and it might really drag on your nerves, but at least you're sure to be in full compliance with your license.

      It sort of reminds me of the old trick cops use when they want someone to squeal on his buddies:

      "You're going to spend a night in jail. Period, end of story. Now, you can either have a nice night alone, in a cell all by yourself, or we can toss you in with the worst vomiting scum we can find. You remember that name yet?"

      Only, in this case, they can walk away from the MS trap, if they have the desire and know how.

      I use Linux on my servers and on my desktop. I tell people everyday - if you are getting work done now, using Windows, stick with it. Use what works for you. When your computer gets flakey, or you get a new one, or the next round of Windows and Office upgrades hit, talk to me again.

      --
      Evan

      --
      "$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
  29. The way I see it... by marcushnk · · Score: 1

    Windows XP is like the windows ME OS..
    Just some way of generating revinue while they work on the bigger better OS..
    Win ME is the greatest abortion of an OS since win 95
    2000 is the best thing MS has brought out, and might be the only halfway decent OS they do produce.

    The only component of XP that looks like a decent leap in tech is office XP... and that only JUST makes the mark..
    Face it people, we're stuck with our own stupid mistakes. And we'll suffer for it for the next 10 years (Till the old Tuxedo warrior reclaims the barren wasteland that is the desktop)

    --
    "Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
  30. The price of standard oil's oil ... by timothy · · Score: 1

    There are quite a few comparisons made between Microsoft and Standard Oil. A lot of these essentially say the same thing you just did (It's good to break up MS, because it is akin to Standard Oil, and it was good to break up Standard Oil).

    However, there are also quite a few making the opposite point -- that Standard Oil actually dropped the price of oil substantially, that it never "abused its monopoly power" in the way that people casually imply that it did or would have, and that Standard Oil's market share was dropping quite a bit by the time the breakup rolled around.

    Here's one of those -- it comes from a free-market thinktank called the Foundation for Economic Education. I can't find in their archives one I read in their print edition 10 or so years ago about Standard Oil which preceded the MS breakup cries.

    http://www.fee.org/freeman/98/9806/DiLorenzo.htm l

    timothy

    --
    jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
  31. No, it is not. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    A monopoly disfigures the forces of a free market. It is the anomaly that has to be treated before it gets too big to be dealt with.

    Former monopolies in many countries like phone, electricity, water, transport , higways could not fix prices at whatever prices they wanted. Some amount of goverment regulation was needed to gurantee the consumer was not robed.

    Windows has become an infrastruture utility (in desktop computing terms) and it will be regulated accordingly.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:No, it is not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only government regulation of Windows that I see is outlawing all non-proprietary software. Unless MS starts charging $10,000 per computer per upgrade and an additional $500 to attach each new peripheral/hardware upgrade, the government isn't going to do anything but help them and other software makers make more money.

    2. Re:No, it is not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some amount of goverment regulation was needed to gurantee the consumer was not robed.

      And that, boys and girls, is how the idea of a nudist colony started.

      Beowulf clusters, Natalie Portman, hot grits, Bob Abooey - the trolls are in full swing today!

    3. Re:No, it is not. by Theodrake · · Score: 1
      I argue the the customer was robbed, at least in the USA, and I believe in Europe. Look at the cost of long distance and cell phones today in the USA. I can get a cell phone for US$40/month with 500 minutes of day use, unlimited night and weekends. All of which includes no long distance charges within the USA from my home calling area. So I can call accross the USA on weekends for no extra charge. My long distance phone bill curently runs around $25 to $35/month and $25 for the local connections. So for about the same or less cost I can talk to my family accross the US all weekend long.


      Back in the '60s I remember my dad saving up some extra cash so he could call his brother in Washington (state) from California over the holidays. But today I don't even worry about my wife calling here family in South America. Costs about $0.23/minute.


      So I don't like monopolies, I want competition, and I can only hope that enough companies balk at this to drive them to providing more cash for Linux and productivity s/w. I believe that if they, like IBM, start supporting Linux and providing a portion of their IT budgets to support Open systems, that in the long run, they can significantly reduce their costs. Also, they will be able to modify what is produced to support what they need when they need it.

    4. Re:No, it is not. by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      Back in the '60s I remember my dad saving up some extra cash so he could call his brother in Washington (state) from California over the holidays. But today I don't even worry about my wife calling here family in South America. Costs about $0.23/minute. ----->

      (Cost of) Supply and (amount of) demand.

      Manual switchboard operators, rotary-dial phones, higher (relative) wage costs due to higher staffing requirement due to less automation, and lower demand (partly due to high end-user costs, of course).

      Your argument is not valid, in my opinion. You could argue with equal validity that people who spent $x millions on IBM mainframes in the '60's and '70's got ripped off due to the lower cost of computers today. (Well, they did due to IBM's monopoly at the time. But my example is still valid as far as it goes, I think.)

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
  32. Re:Let me get this straight... by unitron · · Score: 2

    That's the thing about relgious wars. They rarely interrupt themselves for other religious wars.

    --

    I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

  33. Our experience - $1.2M per year by Ldir · · Score: 4, Interesting
    We're going through this at my company, and we are not happy. Our least expensive option for 5,000 seats is an Enterprise Agreement - $1.2M per year for three years. The "less expensive" Upgrade Advantage approach costs us more because we're still running Office 97. We have to buy upgrades to Office XP just to qualify for Upgrade Advantage.

    Opting out is not a realistic option. While we could remain on Office 97 & NT4/2000 internally forever, our business (as with most businesses) constantly interacts with hundreds of other businesses: partners, clients, and vendors. Unless we can get all of them to stand still on Office, sooner or later, we're going to hit compatibility problems when exchanging documents (and viruses, but that's a different feature). It's a hassle for the business, and it makes us look bad to partners and clients.

    Yes, I know that Office XP and Excel XP use file formats that are compatible with Office 97. I don't know that Office 2003 (or whatever it will be called) maintains this compatibility. The way the new MS pricing works, unless you can postpone upgrades for at least four years, it's cheaper to pay up today.

    For the same reason, Linux desktops and open source office software are not a realistic option. The business can't afford compatibility problems with third parties. It just isn't worth the risk.

    I wonder how expensive MS software has to be, and how onerous their terms have to become, before the MS apologists will acknowledge that MS is, in fact, a monopoly.

    1. Re:Our experience - $1.2M per year by HiThere · · Score: 2

      You should reconsider. I think that you are underestimating the costs. Remember that you don't have control over when they change their license terms, or what they change them to. You are accepting a system that allows for remote deactivation, so you may be coerced on short notice to upgrade to a new version at an increased price. Your contract may protect you for a limited period of time (but try to recover from when they "inadvertently" deactivate you). But when the time runs out, you will need to use their programs at their prices to access your data. Currently there are programs from other companies that can access the data in MS file formats, but various legal changes are making it less likely that this will continue to be possible. And one cannot predict how their "upgrades" will interact with other companies software. Except that they won't bother to test this before making the changes (unless they are planning to move into that area of the market).

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    2. Re:Our experience - $1.2M per year by Captain+Morgan · · Score: 1

      Just think of how quickly the development of KOffice or other open source office suites would progress if this $1.2M/year was put towards them instead of MS. Everyone, not just MS would stand to gain from this.

    3. Re:Our experience - $1.2M per year by Erore · · Score: 1

      Not to object to your whole post, but you are wrong about your terms for Upgrade Advantage.

      You do not have to "get current" in order to enroll your Office installations into Upgrade Advantage.

      You can enroll any existing licenses in Upgrade Advantage up until February 28, 2002. If you have Office 97 Standard, you can get a UA to go to Office XP Standard (note Standard, not Pro).

      You are confusing Upgrade Advantage with Software Assurance. Software Assurance does require that you "get current" before you enroll. The cheapest way to get into Software Assurance is to first buy UA then enroll in SA 2 years later.

      My suggestion is for your company to stand still on Office and deploy an open source alternative like OpenOffice 6.0 when it is available in a few months. Make a corporate mandate that new documents, spreadsheets, and presentations are to be created in StarOffice. Evangelize this suite to your customers and vendors, get them to install it, at least concurrently, at their locations so they can see your documents. They will, if they want to do business with you. It is hard to dictate terms to customers, but, you'll be surprised at how a grassroot campaign with just the ends users will work. And their IS department could very well help them since most of us delight when a user asks for StarOffice.

      Anyway, fire the person who did your licensing orignally. If you have 5,000 desktops you should have already had an Enterprise Agreement, or Select.

    4. Re:Our experience - $1.2M per year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of the big issues with MS software is that there is often no option to usefully save in a standard format such as xml or even the propriety but documented microsoft rich text format. Now, MS word supports rtf of course. However, the bigger problem is that as far as I know, there is no mechanism for forcing the default save format to be RTF or one of the open formats. Until this happens, it's probably impossible to get the masses to save in the open formats. MS has no real interest in compability with non MS software.

  34. as bad as forced registration of personal info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...when you consider how tightly the thing's been tied into media distribution channels, sensitive personal information, and microsoft's track record of producing software that leaks information more often than it bsod's....

  35. Astroturfing by jmu1 · · Score: 0, Troll

    Hmm... Rob, cut the crap.

  36. The arrogance... by rnturn · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... of these guys is astounding:

    ``Bill Landefeld, Microsoft's vice president of worldwide licensing and pricing, defended the changes. "I think customers have choice. They had choice before, and they have choice going forward."''

    Does anyone else read this statement and think ``You customers have a choice: it's our way or the highway.''

    And moving up (with a bullet) in the ranking of my major pet peeves: Not answering the question and/or responding with seemingly randomly selected sentances as exemplified by:

    ``"We would certainly want to know more about" any veiled threats, said Landefeld, who said such sales tactics would not be condoned. "If that is happening, what people need to understand is that administering software is very difficult, especially for large, multinational companies."''

    I would like to know how the difficulty in managing software licenses in a company of any size has to do with Microsoft's sales channel threatening customers. Guess I'm just funny that way.

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
    1. Re:The arrogance... by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1
      "We would certainly want to know more about" any veiled threats, said Landefeld, who said...


      ... we at Microsoft must keep abreast of what our competitors are doing in the veiled threat arena so we can continue to be innovative in this area. We believe that our veiled threats are of the highest quality and provide many more repercussions than any of our competitors. It's just another way our company is continuing to scr... uh... help our customers to enjoy the innovation of Microsoft.

      --
      That is all.
  37. Simple Solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the prices of Microsoft products are too steep. (Haven't they always been?) All they need to do is spend some of the money they were going to use to upgrade, to get someone to install Linux and give basic training to the users. Heck... if their workers use Windows 2000, they can figure out RedHat 7.1 using KDE fast enough. When will they learn!

  38. Go MS! by Ami+Ganguli · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I hope they keep raising prices. The more they try to squeeze revenue growth out of a mature market, the greater the opportunity for alternative operating systems.

    Think if the ketchup analogy that business types talk about. Heinz is the default ketchup brand. Why? Well they stick bunch of well known ingredients into a bottle, put a well known label on it, and sell it for a reasonable price. Sure other brands might be a little cheaper, but not by a whole lot, and Heinz gets to keep their market share even though they aren't doing anything particularly special. It works as long as they don't raise the price too high. If Heinz were, say, double the price of their nearest competitor then people would start to take notice and try the alternatives. Once they got to know some other brands Heinz would have a really hard time winning those customers back.

    Likewise with operating systems. For a lot of people nowadays an OS is an OS. You can argue that Linux or MacOS don't have the application base that Windows does, and you'd be right, but they both have enough for a good many people. Most people are just buying the brand and they'll keep doing that as long as MS doesn't screw them too badly.

    Unfortunately for MS, their shareholders expect them to magically produce growth rates in the double digits year after year. Employees expect it too, since that's how they make money from stock options. How do you make more money when your product is basically the same and the market is maturing? That's right, you squeeze your existing customer base. (Or you expand into video games and Online services, but that's tough when your competitors are Sony and AOL/Time Warner)

    --
    It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
    1. Re:Go MS! by Matts · · Score: 2

      Think if the ketchup analogy that business types talk about. Heinz is the default ketchup brand. Why? Well they stick bunch of well known ingredients into a bottle, put a well known label on it, and sell it for a reasonable price. Sure other brands might be a little cheaper, but not by a whole lot, and Heinz gets to keep their market share even though they aren't doing anything particularly special. It works as long as they don't raise the price too high . If Heinz were, say, double the price of their nearest competitor then people would start to take notice and try the alternatives. Once they got to know some other brands Heinz would have a really hard time winning those customers back.

      Actually I disagree.

      Heinz ketchup tastes much better than XP CDs. And it's cheaper.

      --

      Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
    2. Re:Go MS! by Rogerborg · · Score: 2
      • Think if the ketchup analogy that business types talk about. If Heinz were, say, double the price of their nearest competitor then people would start to take notice and try the alternatives

      This analogy holds only if:

      • Ketchup was highly volatile and had to be delivered direct to your door and stored in special 3rd party bottles, and all of the bottle manufacters only worked with Heinz to ensure compatability.
      • Heinz ketchup dissolved any food not fully compatible with it, and Heinz manufactured their own food and aggressively bought out any competing manufacturers, so you had change your entire diet and restock your fridge, freezer and cupboards if you switch brands.
      • Heinz ketchup came out of the bottle in a different (not better) way than other ketchups, and people have to be re-trained to use other ketchups.

      Oh, wait... now that I think about it, Heinz do actually use that last one as a selling point. Perhaps M$ could consider doing something similar: "Windows XP: not as good as Linux, but you won't have to use your brain." ;)

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    3. Re:Go MS! by Christianfreak · · Score: 2

      The problem with that is that in this case most sheeple don't know that another brand of ketchup, if you will, even exsists.

    4. Re:Go MS! by Paul+Komarek · · Score: 2

      IIRC, many generic ketchups are, in fact, Heinz ketchup. Try to imagine Microsoft or Apple doing *that*!

      -Paul Komarek

  39. Individual vs Enterprise License Agreements by 4of12 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not the one in charge of purchasing the Enterprise License Agreements at MyCorporation, but I've read some articles in the Register and elsewhere that indicate that MS has a pricing policy that makes XP cheaper if it is purchased before a specific cut-off date that is looming rapidly. If you upgrade to XP later, subsequent Agreements will be more expensive.

    I get the impression, too, that most corporations have been trying all they can to standardize on Win2K and are not interested in hearing about this carrot and stick ploy on XP pricing.

    Of course, as time proceeds and our new users buy laptops with XPSP4 and Outlook 2004 that "works best with" XP and clunky with Win2K, our corporate IT support people will be coerced into a position where their wallets will have to crack open a bit wider to do that upgrade or suffer the wrath of users wondering why "we're behind the times".

    If it didn't hurt so much financially, it would be pretty funny. Now that MS has dominated the market, the only revenue growth opportunity left to them is to force their customer's to upgrade more frequently!

    --
    "Provided by the management for your protection."
    1. Re:Individual vs Enterprise License Agreements by John+Murdoch · · Score: 3, Interesting
      but I've read some articles in the Register and elsewhere that indicate that MS has a pricing policy that makes XP cheaper if it is purchased before a specific cut-off date that is looming rapidly. If you upgrade to XP later, subsequent Agreements will be more expensive.

      You are absolutely correct. The drop-dead date for signing up for their Open License program (which is effectively an annual subscription for software) is either October 1 or October 10. And my largest customer, number 2xx on the Fortune 500, is so far content to say, "drop dead." They're not moving.

    2. Re:Individual vs Enterprise License Agreements by Erore · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The latest date in which anyone can purchase product under current licensing plans in February 28, 2002.

      For your so called Fortune 2xx company, that already has an installed base of Windows boxes and a Licensing Contract, either Open License (not likely for a Fortune 500 Co.), Select, or Enterprise Agreement, the cheapest method to upgrade to Windows XP is via Upgrade Advantage (UA). The cost per desktop will be about $149 before discounts. They can purchase UA until Feb 28. At the time of purchase they get free upgrades to any subsequent versions of the OS that come out in the following 2 years.

      After those 2 years are up, then they have the choice of either paying nothing, and all future upgrades will be at full OS cost, or they can enroll their desktops in Software Assurance, which means their desktop stuff would cost 29% per year of the full sale price.

      The advantage to doing Software Assurance is that software now becomes an operating expense which means the accountants can do interesting stuff with it.

      However, I'll be damned if Microsoft releases any significant upgrades to Windows XP before February 28, 2004, when the UA's contracts expire. However, they will release before Oct 1, 2004 when all the Software Assurance people who are just getting in this upcoming week will have paid for 3 years of subscriptions and received no updates.

      All this licensing stuff is pure crap. I can't tell you how many headaches my small shop have had just trying to understand all the implications, cutoff dates, prices, etc. Particularly when we coupled our inquiries with questions concerning a BSA audit. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get a clear definition of "proof of license" from anyone?

      Anyway, the October 1 date you mention used to be correct. Microsoft backed down from it though a few weeks after they announced it because corporations complained that they didn't have time to budget the expense of "getting current" and wouldn't be able to afford to do that and switch to Software Assurance. This article, erroneously, still mentions the October 1 date.

    3. Re:Individual vs Enterprise License Agreements by 4of12 · · Score: 2

      Anyway, the October 1 date you mention used to be correct. Microsoft backed down from it though a few weeks after they announced it because corporations complained that they didn't have time to budget the expense of "getting current" and wouldn't be able to afford to do that and switch to Software Assurance. This article, erroneously, still mentions the October 1 date.

      I recall reading this deferment till Feb 2002, too.

      IIRC, the delay will allow companies some time to budget for this XP upgrade. In government, it's pretty hard to push a new big expenditure throught the pipeline at the last minute prior to close out of a fiscal year at the end of September.

      Probably the wise practical "choice" will be to purchase the upgrade licenses but not actually deploy until necessary, maybe months or years down the line when things have been tested for compatibiity across the suite of apps that must coexist.

      It's pretty ludicrous. If I had to "Upgrade" my car for reasons of maintaining compatibility with "Oil Filter 2002", having "Tires 1998" work improperly with "Car 2000", etc., I think I'd be plenty peeved.

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
    4. Re:Individual vs Enterprise License Agreements by stephenbooth · · Score: 1

      It's October 1st according to a recent presentation I went to. Certain industries (European public sector and LGOs being the major ones) have different cut off dates for certain options.

      As I recall as of October 1st you will no longer be able to buy upgrade licenses and most of the world won't be able to buy Upgrade Advantage, this is the launch date for Software Assurance. In the UK many LGOs will continue to buy Upgrade Advantage until 31st March 2002, after that date only new licenses will be available and you will be able to buy Software assurance with that license (I think you have a 30 day grace period to buy SA after buying the license).

      Check with your Microsoft sales rep for details and confirmation.

      --
      "Don't write down to your readers, the only people less intelligent than you can't read" - Sign on Newspaper Office Wall
  40. Okay--so why buy it? by John+Murdoch · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I find it interesting that these companies even care. Windows XP offers a few bells and whistles--but it doesn't offer a lot more than Windows 2000. Sure--it offers support for joysticks and heavy-duty gaming. But that doesn't strike me as a compelling new feature causing a corporation to upgrade ("And, uh, this slide shows how we'll be able to use this new version to install Dirk Blasto Space Invader joysticks in all of our CSR workstations to handle irate callers...").

    It seems to me that Microsoft isn't just trying to shift the business model from a "purchase" to a "pay-for-use" model, as many have suggested. I think they're also trying to--or will end up being forced into--a business model similar to Intel's. When the next round of microprocessors appears the chips are sold at a premium price--and the product clears the market at that price. As Intel rachets up production it can profitably lower the price, clearing the market of demand at that lower level. The cycle keeps repeating--Intel (and other semiconductor manufacturers) have this down pat.

    Microsoft has done similar things in the past. Their Visual Studio 6.0 toolset is, by now, quite long in the tooth. They sold tons in the early days of the product, but sales are considerably lower--so Microsoft offers bundled books and tools, and offers lower prices to resellers, to sell product. In effect they're lowering the price to entice buyers into the market who aren't willing to pay the higher price.

    I think we're going to see the same thing with XP. Corporations are simply going to stand pat: why upgrade? All XP gives you is some easily-ignored bells and whistles, and the ability to use joysticks. In order to get corporations to upgrade Microsoft is going to have to make it worth the corporations while--which will almost certainly mean price decreases and less draconian license restrictions.

    My largest customer is number 2xx on the Fortune 500. They're just now rolling out Windows 2000 to desktops around the world--and they have shelved plans for even piloting XP. Microsoft wants them to upgrade--but can't make a compelling case for a whopping upgrade expense (plus the cost of actually installing the OS, labor, etc.) in a time of tightly-trimmed budgets and some layoffs. "Hey," said a friend and senior manager, "we just announced we're whacking 200 people. If we spend three million bucks installing XP we're going to have to whack another 40. Is the ability to use a joystick worth those peoples' jobs?"

    Last week I attended a seminar that included an impromptu lecture by a highly-regarded economist. One of the key changes in the economy over the past 20 years, as he sees it, is that manufacturers by and large have lost control of their pricing. You don't ship shirts to a department store and tell them what to charge--instead you get a purchase order from Wal-Mart telling you what they're willing to pay. And you deal. The major exception that this economist mentioned was pharmaceutical companies, because they're protected by patents on their products. If your doctor prescribes ButaGlutaMax, you can only get it from one place. An exception he did not mention was software--and I think Microsoft is about to learn this lesson. In a booming economy with a bazillion dot-coms buying PCs, Microsoft sold a lot of OSs. The boom is over, budgets are drying up all over the world, and Microsoft is trying to force through a price increase. I don't think they're going to be able to control their prices this time around.

    1. Re:Okay--so why buy it? by Ldir · · Score: 1
      We have opted out of the OS upgrade merry-go-round. We decided to buy whatever OS is current as we buy hardware, letting each old OS variant fade away as we retire PCs. If we can, we may "downgrade" the OS as we receive equipment, e.g., replace XP with Win2K. We are not upgrading existing desktops.

      As you point out, there are no compelling feature advantages for business for upgrading to WinXP vs. Win2000 Pro. Although supporting multiple operating systems increases costs somewhat, it doesn't affect the business users. So far, at least, different desktop OS's hasn't impaired interoperability noticably.

      As I mentioned elsewhere, the real issue is Office. With Office, the business can see compatibility problems. With the Office suite, we need to keep everyone on the same version or it becomes a support nightmare. Coincidentally, I'm sure, Office licensing is much more expensive than the desktop OS.

    2. Re:Okay--so why buy it? by Rogerborg · · Score: 2
      • I find it interesting that these companies even care

      The reason why my company cares is that we buy desktops with Win2K (soon to be WinXP) and then pay again to install NT 4. We resent having to pay twice. What we want is to buy bare boxen, or NT 4 boxen, but we're tied to Dell, and Dell ship Win2K boxen. We have to have warrantied homogenous hardware to minimise support costs, and it would cost us a fortune to switch to another provider, buy white boxen, or (god help us) switch to Another OS. Dell and Microsoft know this, and they know that they don't have to give us what we want, only what we will (barely) accept.

      Free market my auntie's hairy arse.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    3. Re:Okay--so why buy it? by bhize · · Score: 1

      The comapny I am consulting at just upgraded recently from 95 and NT to 2000.

      Most companies I have worked for like to wait to upgrade so the major bugs and security holes get worked out, which reduces the risk substantially for them. If word got out about a security breach and that confidential customer information was exposed, it would kill their business.

      With Microsoft's new licensing, puts the squeeze on these companies to upgrade and to accept risks that could be detrimental to their business. The alternatives are switching to *nux based systems, or be prepared to part with a large chunk of change when they upgrade. And chances are they will switch to Linux, which is great for the Linux community.

    4. Re:Okay--so why buy it? by dachshund · · Score: 1
      "Hey," said a friend and senior manager, "we just announced we're whacking 200 people. If we spend three million bucks installing XP we're going to have to whack another 40. Is the ability to use a joystick worth those peoples' jobs?"

      Agh, it sounds really awful when you put it in those terms. How much more productive will this product make your company, and how much of that productivity will be lost in job and budget cuts? Sounds like this should be a pretty straightforward equation for a CFO to work out.

    5. Re:Okay--so why buy it? by Lish · · Score: 1
      "Hey," said a friend and senior manager, "we just announced we're whacking 200 people. If we spend three million bucks installing XP we're going to have to whack another 40. Is the ability to use a joystick worth those peoples' jobs?"

      Amen, brother. The days of upgrading for the sake of having the latest-and-greatest are over. Budgets are tight and managers have figured out that the improvements just aren't worth the cost. If the upgrade isn't demonstrated to significantly improve productivity, they aren't biting. MS may have a monopoly, but they have relied on the planned-obsolescence model too long. Unless they can give companies convincing reasons to upgrade, they should prepare for less-than-expected sales figures.

      --
      "This message is composed of 100% recycled electrons."
    6. Re:Okay--so why buy it? by sheldon · · Score: 2

      Unless they've changed, Microsoft has always taken the position that if you have a license to a new product you can install a downgraded product in it's place.

      We used to buy licenses to Office 97 and installed Office 4.0 for instance...

    7. Re:Okay--so why buy it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AHHHHHHHH! Rampaging herds of boxen! Save us!

    8. Re:Okay--so why buy it? by sheldon · · Score: 2

      I think you are somewhat confusing the issue. Nobody, including Microsoft, disagrees that WinXP is not a major upgrade from Win2k in the corporate arena.

      Most companies aren't even on Win2k yet. They put a hold on plans to wait for WinXP to see what happened. Many companies are still using Win9x.

      Are you also arguing that WinXP is not a compelling upgrade from Win9x?

      I think you'll be surprised at the adoption rate of WinXP and Office XP. They're both high quality pieces of software.

    9. Re:Okay--so why buy it? by Rogerborg · · Score: 2
      • Microsoft has always taken the position that if you have a license to a new product you can install a downgraded product in it's place.

      That's an interesting point. I'll take it up with our IS people. Do you have a reference for that, or is it one of these nod-and-a-wink, "We probably won't have you prosecuted" things?

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  41. Also by wiredog · · Score: 2

    In the Army it's Sergants Major, not Sergant Majors.

    1. Re:Also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and Courts Martial, etc etc. no-one else watch the west wing? :)

      S.

  42. On the price of windows... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Its really quite simple. A Windows client seat costs what, a max of $200? Fine.

    Your employee makes $10/ hr.

    Therefore your proposed free solution has to be good enough to retrain the employees in less than 20 hours.

    Cant do it? Then you are in the heap of solutions that were good, but not better.

    1. Re:On the price of windows... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And don't forget that Software can be depreciated over several years. Salary expenses cannot, unless you find a way to creatively roll the training time into a product and depreciate the whole thing, but I dunno if that's legal. $200 sunk into Software is FAR better than $200 sunk into salary expenses from an accounting standpoint.

    2. Re:On the price of windows... by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      It's never that straightforward. You also have to factor in the cost of constant upgrades associated with Windows, especially if you go the XP route and are virtually forced into it on a semi-regular basis. These upgrades *always* decrease productivity for the first few months and tech support isn't fully up to speed for at least six months, perhaps a year (e.g., the Win 3.1 to Win 95 shift).

      Don't even get me started on all those 'upgrade' training sessions where you try to explain to employees that keystroke A or menu B will no longer do the thing/have the option that they're used to; now it's keystroke C or menu D. Why? Hell if we know; MS has never been a fan of logic or continuity.

      With Linux none of this is true. Switch over once, change software if and when you see fit, with said software costing nothing.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
  43. You fotgot they are a monoploy by Ghoser777 · · Score: 2

    Price gouging like this is exactly why there has been any move to break up microsoft. Having a virtually complete monopoly of the OS market leaves customers vulnerable to the whimsacle price increases that Billy wants to have to make it to the 100 billion mark. Imagine what happens when they make you pay every year for a subscription fee: you'll be forced to pay whatever price they want to continue the subscription, or you will have no OS at all. And a lot of companies can't make a transition from Windows to MacOS or Linux within days, so companies would be forced to comply. If I had a windows box, I'd keep a version of 2000 around just for this reason.

    Businesses should have complete control over their prices. BUT, the ability for microsoft to control the markey and force customers to pay incredible prices is an example of why some type of legal action needs to be taken against Microsoft's anticompetitive practices and help protect consumers and businesses.

    F-bacher

    --
    James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
  44. Maybe the "third parties" need to get onside... by Robber+Baron · · Score: 2

    For the same reason, Linux desktops and open source office software are not a realistic option. The business can't afford compatibility problems with third parties. It just isn't worth the risk.

    Uhhh, what if the third parties got pissed at the expense of upgrading their software and opted for open source at the same time? No compatability issues then and everybody's happy! Maybe they're having the same compatability concerns that your company is and are feeling compelled to upgrade to preserve compatability with you! Talk to them! Maybe they might be inclined to postpone upgrading or chuck it altogether!

    --

    You're using her as bait, Master!

    1. Re:Maybe the "third parties" need to get onside... by Theodrake · · Score: 1
      This is an excellent point. Most large companies are buying into the 6Sigma paradigm. My company is in a big way and during our training, one of the major points was the Abilene Paradox. Which is when there is a problem where individuals all see the problem, but the group doesn't. So the problem persists, until at least one individual says, I think there is a problem and it is then discovered that most people agree that there is and change is needed.

      I believe most companies recognize the problem, but won't work with their competitors to come to a solution. They all keep saying we need to be compatible with our customers and vendors. Who are all saying the same thing. The problem is they believe that MS is the only solution instead of demanding an open standard that all s/w vendors must follow.

  45. I remember... by kruemelmonster · · Score: 1

    a time, where people asked: "Who will ever need the power of a pentium processor with 100MHz?"
    or
    "Who will ever need hundereds of megs of diskspace?"
    or
    "who will need a graphical userinterface?"

    It's allways the same question, and allways the (almost) same answer: "Nobody"
    But history teaches us, a little bit later, ist's sold! And it's "needed"! Why? I don't know, but it's what i learned over the last years.
    So i think, XP will have a hard (slow) start, but as soon, as all the new computers will be preinstalled with WinXP, companies will upgrade to the new OS because they want a homogene Infrastructure.

    cu

    Marco (from switzerland...)

    PS: sorry for the poor english, i hope you understand what i mean

    1. Re:I remember... by alen · · Score: 1

      But the big companies can still get their machines shipped with NT4 even though XP is out. If GE or any other Fortune 500 company wants to keep buying NT 4 for the next two years the OEM's will oblige. But most likely they already have a site license and won't have to worry whether MS is still selling NT or not.

  46. why complain? by macpeep · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Why complain? Why not just simply not upgrade or switch to Linux. Everyone on Slashdot seems totally convinced that Linux is not only a replacement for Windows but actually technically superrior and on top of all free. Instead of crying to the government, why not just vote with your wallet?

    1. Re:why complain? by buzzbomb · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because I'd assume the majority of Slashdot readers are the techies...not the PHBs that make decisions like that.

    2. Re:why complain? by esper_child · · Score: 1

      I did just this, except I use FreeBSD instead of Linux. However, I still wind up booting back into windows 2000 (which is as far as i can tell the best version yet, considering after having tried all the others and still don't like any of them). Instead of complaining anonymously you all should just go out buy *nix packages, or if you can't seem to get them to work well for you, go get a mac. No one is twisting your arm to make you use XP, you can always format over the HDD if it comes with XP or just not install the thing. That is one of the great things about the free world we live in today, you can use your choice of operating system and aren't forced to actually use any one particular thing. And yes, their pricing scheme is very unfair.

  47. Economic Analysis by ProfDumb · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As an economist, it is pretty clear what is going on here. If a monopolist wants to maximize current profits, he will always price on an "elastic" portion of the demand curve. In looser language, you maximize profit by raising price until the point where you really are driving some substantial percentage of consumers away. (Why? Because at lower prices, price increases don't cost you much in terms of lost demand and they also reduce your costs.) You can prove a formal version of this mathematically.

    However, in the past MS was worried not just about current sales, but also about future sales. This is called "dynamic pricing". MS's attitude toward dynamic pricing is changing because: [i] they have close to 100% share already, [ii] the number of PCs in not increasing as fast (and so future market share is no longer much more attractive relative to current market share) and [iii] the threat of anti-trust regulation makes the future less certain.

    Thus, MS is turning to the question of how to squeeze out current profits. This involves driving some customers away in order to raise revenue and lower costs for existing customers.

    The opportunity for competitors (including Linux) is obvious. MS may be moving away from dynamic pricing too soon, if there really is a threat to its future market share.

    1. Re:Economic Analysis by Rogerborg · · Score: 2
      • In looser language, you maximize profit by raising price until the point where you really are driving some substantial percentage of consumers away

      Microsoft have used this argument themselves. They claim that their maximum profit point is (wait for it) $800 per box, and they only price the OS so "low" because they're such nice guys.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  48. Oh come on. by Raymond+Luxury+Yacht · · Score: 1

    Here is how the conversation is going to go with the BOFT (not to be confused with the BOFH) authorities and M$:

    BOFT: We have questions about your...

    M$: Hey, lookie here... a couple hundred million dollars... why don't you go out and buy yourself something nice. Like an island.

    BOFT: I'm sorry, but we really can't...

    M$: Now, how big is the British empire now? A few nations around here and a bungalo somewhere in the Bahamas? The whole "sun never sets" etc is really taken a hit. Tsk tsk. Money like this could buy an awful lot... I hear the going rate of Yemen is mighty resonable these days.

    BOFT: Well, in fact we have had our eye on this nice little island out in the pacific now that you mention it.

    M$: So, what about that investigation?

    BOFT: Investigation? Oh pishaw... Those are just your average normal old price increases. Inflation, don'tcha' know.

    Now, that isn't intended to be a slander against England or the people who staff the BOFT. I'm willing to bet there are quite a few nice vacations being planned for members of the FTC, not to mention a few politicians who suddenly have a bit more dosh in the old campaign coffers. But lets all face it, we are talking about one of the most powerful companies in the history of, well, history. Call me a cynic, but I think that other nations saw how much the US government made on dropping the case against M$, and they decided they wanted a piece of THAT pie.

    --

    Ceci n'est pas une sig.
  49. That's next time. by HiThere · · Score: 2

    The licensing model that they are using now allows remote deactivation. So once you buy into this one, then they can coerce upgrades and license changes whenever they choose. It is my feeling that any manager who signs onto this should be prosecuted for malfeasance, but this attitude isn't shared or welcomed by the IT management that I work for. I'm not going to agree to the license. I may have to quit over it, but I feel that this is one good way to get oneself sued.

    And one of the cute fillips is that they don't need to give any warning before a price increase takes effect. So IT budgets become totally unpredictable. They may decide tomorrow to double their price, and all of the current versions suddenly stop working until you have purchased upgrades. This wouldn't work yet, as they don't have sufficient market penetration for this version, but that's clearly where it's headed. And I'm not going to sign onto it.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  50. fall out from sept 11, etc by Alien54 · · Score: 2
    Given the events of September 11, alot of companies are going to take a long hard look at how they do business.

    For example, because of all of the companies that had all their key people located in one place at the trade center, and the resulting loss of people and their knowledge, many businesses are probably looking more at how to decentralize to reduce the risk.

    There is also the now probable recession, just given the drop in business for the travel and entertainment industries. So many businesses are likely cutting back.

    How does this effect Microsoft? Many businesses have reasons, now more than ever, to NOT go through with the Microsoft upgrade program.

    And then, there will be the cost efficiency of Linux. Businesses will add up the costs, recognise that the FUD about reducing the cost of business with Microsoft is in fact a financial trap.

    Microsoft, if it is smart, may change their policy to extend or eliminate their deadline.

    The business enviromnent may have become the wrong time to do a major product launch.

    MS may well wind up stampeding customers into the hands of their opponents.

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
  51. Wow! What a great incentive.. by Technician · · Score: 2

    What a great reason to start writing good software. Software authors are about to be able to get back into the market as people start to look for replacements. Star Office and Word Perfect should be getting their next release polished up for the Christmas Season. It's going to be a good season.

    --
    The truth shall set you free!
  52. Finally, Vermont is IN... by dpilot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is now someone I can write to, with reasonable expectations of a good reading. I'm now in the loop instead of an interested mostly-spectator.

    Microsoft's situation is interesting, and perhaps a little sad. Their business model appears to have two cornerstones: Aggressive compound growth and fast, frequent shipment of incremental improvements focused on user perception. Besides that, they've until recently been a 'gentle monopoly' to the end user, not taking advantage their power to control prices.

    This model has served them well, up until recently. But they've effectively reached the limits of desktop revenue, owning monopolies on the OS and the office applications. They're trying to break into imbedded, server, and game console markets. So far their fast/incremental business model has not helped them get as far into the imbedded or server markets as they'd like, where 'next release' and eye candy simply don't cut it when base functionality is unreliable or insecure.

    With Win2k they've made great strides in reliability, but really they're only getting to the base function point. Prior to this, anyone but Microsoft would have been laughed out of the datacenter with most of what they sold.

    In imbedded, they've stuck by WinCE in their usual fashion, but I can't see Microsoft playing in any arena where there isn't enough of a display to show the Windows logo.

    In penetrating new markets to expand their revenue base, the XBox is probably the most important product they have. But Sony and Nintendo won't give up without a fight, and the timing of the recession is just plain bad for having the most expensive console on the market, no matter how capable.

    So with the desktop OS and office market saturated, server and imbedded markets stalled or slow, and not quite ready for console games, in order to continue the revenue curve that is so essential to their invincible appearance, Microsoft had little choice but to ramp up the license terms.

    They're between a rock and a hard place.

    --
    The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    1. Re:Finally, Vermont is IN... by mpe · · Score: 2

      Microsoft's situation is interesting, and perhaps a little sad. Their business model appears to have two cornerstones: Aggressive compound growth and fast, frequent shipment of incremental improvements focused on user perception.

      Also they rely very much on their own share price. Wonder how they are doing right now.

    2. Re:Finally, Vermont is IN... by SurfsUp · · Score: 2
      "Microsoft's situation is interesting, and perhaps a little sad. Their business model appears to have two cornerstones: Aggressive compound growth and fast, frequent shipment of incremental improvements focused on user perception."

      Also they rely very much on their own share price. Wonder how they are doing right now.

      They're tanking, even more so than others. Compare to Sun or even Red Hat.

      --
      Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
    3. Re:Finally, Vermont is IN... by AA0 · · Score: 1

      They might be between a rock and a hard place but the several billion dollars in pure cash seems to soften it up.

    4. Re:Finally, Vermont is IN... by lsdino · · Score: 1

      They're tanking, even more so than others. Compare to Sun or even Red Hat.

      Uhm, not more so than Sun, but Red Hat's doing better than either of them. here's the 1 month chart of all of them and here's the one week chart. For the week RHAT's up 20%, MSFT is down about 2 or 3%, and SUNW's down about 12%.

      Ahhh, It's all short term changes anyway, and everyone invests for the long term, right?

  53. Re:Saaaweeet! by ZaneMcAuley · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Is it possible to have a negative Karma rating?

    Dammit I hate the MS optical mouse twitch, now it went and made me hit the submit button :D

    --
    ----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
  54. Yes, they are! by why-is-it · · Score: 2

    I mean, really. Are they putting a gun to your head and saying "buy our next round of products or die Scum!"?

    Yes, they pretty much are saying that. Details here

    --
    *** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
  55. For migration deadlines ... by Aceticon · · Score: 2
    ... see Microsoft Product Lifecycles

    If you have Win98 + or WinNT 4.xx + then you have at least until the end of June 2002 to make any migration while still having standart support from Microsoft for the not-yet-migrated systems.

  56. Classic monopolist behavior by Animats · · Score: 2
    Now we're seeing Microsoft acting like a classic monopolist. Having achieved a monopoly, they're running up the price. Way up.

    This could be a win for Apple. Apple's hardware has always been more expensive than comparable PC hardware, but they bundle the OS. With the OS now priced at half the hardware cost, Macs may look like a viable option. Especially now that Apple finally has a protected-mode OS underneath.

    1. Re:Classic monopolist behavior by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *snort* - yeah, dream on, Apple Boy. Get your chickens and eggs properly arranged before you start counting them. One of 'em has to come first, and Microsoft has what we like to call "momentum." It's a nice, idealistic thought, though. *snicker*

  57. attourney generals? by cjohnson · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually, not to be nitpicky, but the plural of attourney general is attourneys general. Much like the plural of court marshall is courts marshall, rather than court marshalls.

    (It makes sense. There's no army of generals, and John Ashcroft probably isn't General caliber. Rather, he is the 'general' attourney for the United States. We he and his friends from the states hang out, they are all attourneys, and all general. Thusly, they are attourneys general.)

    1. Re:attourney generals? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And for those of us who can spell, the plural of attorney general is attornies general.

    2. Re:attourney generals? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      It's obvious if you actually know English. "Attorney" is the noun and "general" is an adverb. Writing "attorney generals" is similar to writing "reds car" for "red cars" or "slows computer" for "slow computers."

  58. The prices are still the same by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Moscow I can get now the version of XP MS send to manufactures for about 2$, the same price you pay for any other CD. Besides, it does NOT require any registration/activation.

  59. One thing that might help.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I hope to heck the courts allow OEM's to *not* ship Windows XP. Where i'm working right now (a large University) people have basically only upgraded because they buy new systems and it comes with the latest and greatest Windows.

    I wonder if OEMs would offer Business customers Win2k over XP if they could? Office XP runs on Win2k..

    Office XP licensing is another matter.. as someone already pointed out, unless you can make all your clients stand pat on a specific version, you have to upgrade simply because they're going to..

  60. They are smarter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually MS smarter that it seems. You can already get a cracked version of XP sent to manufactures that does not require any registration/activation. I just bought one in Moscow for 2$ and it works.

    This way MS ensures that friends still can get a copy while fighting piracy at corporate level via software "re-using" .

  61. duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let them price themselves out of existence. The higher the costs, the more inclined the coporate world will become to recall that they have an "option" to buy... not an obligation. There are, afterall, a few alternatives.

  62. The best thing I did as a pastor-in-training ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    was to start using Linux. It was difficult at first but now it's my sole desktop. Now, as a Pastor, I can assess the needs of my church and even *cough* setup my own samba server for our LAN. I never had enough money to do this with MS products - and would suggest that people in the non-profit sector should seriously begin learning linux/oss ... Just my 2 cents

  63. I feel fine - you can too. by reynolds_john · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I flexed my consumer muscle two years ago - I got RedHat certified for business purposes, and four months ago made a final switch from M$ to Mandrake 8.0.


    I converted all my stuff from Win2K/Office to Mandrake 8.0. It took about two months for the total conversion (let me tell you email from damnable Outlook was a pain) but now I'm 100% MS free. Only legacy thing which is a pain is Access. I might add that I purchased VMWare to keep my stuff avail should I need it during the transition.


    I'm no longer concerned with licensing, software EULAs, piracy, inability to play particular music formats, or big brother bill. I don't care about service packs breaking my whole machine, web bugs, or spending ridiculous amounts of $$ to keep up with their silly software releases and $$ for software that should be included with the OS.


    My current machine will probably last me four years - much longer than if I stayed with the M$/Intel upgrade cycle.

    I now purchase software because I feel the development for it is worthwhile (i.e. vmware and mandrake), not because I'm in danger of violating commercial law.

    The only way to really stop M$ is to break their pattern of generating revenue. As a collective of consumers, we have this ability. It might take time, but history shows that all monopolies eventually fail. Should our government actually figure out a way to outlaw open source software, then perhaps it is time for me to change my place of residence. Until then, I urge you all to figure out a time and cohesive manner with which you can start refusing to give M$ the $$ they demand.


    &J

  64. Re:I hate Moslems, You hate Moslems, We hate Mosle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i'd shit instead ..

  65. It all makes me Sick by vtechpilot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ok, Warning, This is post is likely to be flamebait, I am likely to be a troll, and a karma whore, and if thats not enough I'm likely to use profanity. You have been warned.

    I have been using computers for more than half my life, Which is easy when you start when you are nine years old. I started with a TRS 80 running of all things Microsoft Basic. It was loads of fun and I liked it. Later for me it was DOS 4.11 on a 12mhz 286. It was loads of fun and I liked it. Everyone remember when microsoft was a pretty good company in New Mexico?

    But Windows... Oh the plauge across the land that which is Windows. Windows 3 wasn't so bad, Considering what it did it was advanced for its time, but I personnaly believed it was one of those things that was never ready for prime time. So why did business dive upon windows like buzzards on a fresh corpse? I don't want to hear that bullshit about it running (or even being compatible with) DOS programs. You don't even want to know how many windows programs break upon moving to a higher version number of windows. Notice how I didn't refer to it as upgrade. Upgrading implies moving forward or progress, but a new version of windows in neither of those. I digress the point here is that Windows 3 was no more compatiable with DOS, than Windows ME is with Windows 98. There are lots of programs written for windows 98 that absolutely refuse to run on windows ME. So backwards compatabilty is a sick joke, and the joke is on all of us. Just enough compatabilty for us to think it is real. Not quite enough to keep us from buying more windows.

    I personally am absolutely disgusted with Windows. I have been giving myself a mental beating over that fact that I have written windows programs. To continue supporting this monster is unthinkable. It makes me think of the analogy of primative peoples sacrificing virgins to a horrible demon.

    Once a week the villagers would leave a virgin sacrifice tied up outside the demon's cave to keep the demon happy. But what the villagers don't know is that if they stop sacrificing villagers the demon is to fat to go out and do anything about it.

    Now I am not saying that microsoft is to fat, but I am saying we don't have to keep feeding out dollars to the behemoth. Honestly what are they going to do if everyone decides that they aren't going to pay for this crap anymore? I personally have made this resolution. I will not give microsoft A single Red Penny of mine.

    I am in the process of a Microsoft Purge. While unpleasant at the moment it is an enima that the rest of the computing world could use. Everyone needs to stick a big bottle of penguin juice up their ass and flush all the microcrap away. I am converting all my ASF files to DivX with a hacked version of virtual dub, I am retireing all of my Open Source Visual Basic Projects (I have 4 of them, 3 of which are of a usable quality.) Since learning Pascal I have changed my Language of choice to Kylix (which is cool because the GPL is my license of choice) Oh, and if I hear any of that crap about "Free as in speach Compilers", Fuck off, Be happy I give my code away at all. Kylix is cool, I can develope Linux programs in a manner similar to that of Visual Basic, while contiuning to help the unfortunate souls who have yet to recive their bottles of penguin juice.

    Somehow I doubt I will ever give up Microsoft Completely. Thats Ok, though, I can dual boot. I have been doing so for a while. I can continue to use what versions of windows I have bought. I'll probably continue to load windows to play some games, but I will certainly buy no game that requires a version of windows I don't have. Hopefully by that time though Linux versions of games will be more that the dream it seems to be now. My point here is it is far more important to stop handing over your hard earned dollars/pounds/yen/rupees/ruples/franc/marks/euros for crap, than to quit using crap cold turkey.

    Oh my God using that analogy Windows is like Crack. Makes sense though, While using it you are too doped up to know you are paying something designed to keep you paying for it. Ooh look at the pretty logos!

    Maybe one day we will all wake up from this bad trip and find ourselves sitting at our terminals in 1973 and decide that thats a vision of the future we don't want. I can almost understand the retaliation against the Hippie movement when I compare it to windows. I could just see it, its the early 90's and all the wise old hackers are terrified because all those young hippie windows users are going unravel the fabic of society. Both the anti-hippies and the anti-windies were both right and wrong, Windows like, the free-love-sex-drugs-peace mentalaty of the 60's have had both positive effects (like promoting peace and computer literacy) and negative effects (like disco, and computer illiteracy.)

    I am getting tired of the Linux evangelists in the world who say "Don't like microsoft?, Use Linux!", Its not enough to just say use Linux. You are so preaching to the chior. Its easy to tell people who use Linux to use Linux. Its hard to go out into the world and teach the ignorant masses that there is a better way. If any one of you out there really wants people to stop using windows, then get out there and do something about it. Write Code, Don't try to tear down the applications barrier around windows. Instead, build a bigger applications barrier around linux. Build Good Freindly applications. Build a wall so high and strong that Bill's 120 Billion dollars could never be enough to bring it down. Host LUGNUT [Linux User Group New User Training for the unitiated] meetings. Advertise the LUGNUTs to the general public. Most newspapers list non-profit community events for free. Coordinate them with local civic centers, libraries, colleges and universities, Highschools, and Career advancement institutions. In your spare time at work implement open source versions of your companies systems if only to prove to the suits it can be done economically. Go out into the world and be a Open Source Missionary. Find the heathens and point them towards the light. If you can do none of these things, offer finiacial support to those who do. Send a few dollars in the way of those who run linux learning centers, or donate hardware to those who need it to teach open source. Send a few dollars to the guy who puts in 40 hours a week into Mozilla, or apache, or bind, or send flowers to Linus, and Alan Cox.

    I heave bled my heart out for you. Its all I can do. If you want this open source thing to work, you have to work for it. Nothing this good comes easily. You have to work for it.

    Moderators, be kind, I speak only the truth, and I seek only the truth.

    --
    Slashdot is an anagram for Has Dolts, and I am Dolt number 468543
    1. Re:It all makes me Sick by levinas · · Score: 1

      Yeah I' all for you, However, My problem is not using windows but haveing to support it. Whenever someone comes to me with a computer problem it is always a problem with windows, For example Sircum. People will give M$ and windows the flick, but in the mean time why do I have to solve the problems that M$ created when I dont even like their OS much.

  66. It's Our Own Damn Fault, Folks by GroundBounce · · Score: 2

    No customers contacted by CNET News.com said they planned to evaluate alternative applications

    There's your answer on the price issue. Companies obviously feel the cost of changing (retraining, losing interoperability with others, etc) is still greater than the cost of paying Microsoft's monopoly prices (soon to be rents). I wonder just how expensive an OS or Office upgrade must get for them to consider a change as being cost effective? Microsoft will raise prices until they find this point (can't really blame them), and apparently they still have some wiggle room, even as high as their prices have become! Only a very small percentage have gotten pissed off enough to change.

    The amazing thing is that companies have switched software before (Visicalc -> 123 -> Excel, Harvard Graphics -> Freelance -> Powerpoint, WordStar -> WordPerfect -> Word, etc.) but this time they seem as stubborn as an ox and much more unwilling to change, perhaps because the number of users to retrain is so much higher than in the "old days".

    1. Re:It's Our Own Damn Fault, Folks by Wansu · · Score: 2

      The amazing thing is that companies have switched software before (Visicalc -> 123 -> Excel, Harvard Graphics -> Freelance -> Powerpoint, WordStar -> WordPerfect -> Word, etc.) but this time they seem as stubborn as an ox and much more unwilling to change, perhaps because the number of users to retrain is so much higher than in the "old days".

      The number of users is greater. The cluefullness of their users is lower and they've already been there, done that. Many clerical types would rather fight than switch, as the old cigarette commercial goes. I also have to wonder how much they'll pay. At the rate M$ is going, we may soon find out.

      --
      Wansu, th' chinese sailor
  67. Microsoft is America! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft is an American company! How dare these sneaky European foreigners try to mess with America/Microsoft! In my opinion these Europeans are no better than Osama Bin Laden and should be dealt with accordingly.

  68. LieSense Fees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I sure hope we don't end up having to pay any 800 mm $ bad toll, to father william. more like 88$ to the penguinista rebels, for us.

    have you even seen these guys?

  69. I bet you are by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    "We are very conscious that changes to our licensing programmes.... could mean higher l licensing costs for about 20% of license purchase"

    Oh, those poor people at MS, being forced to overcharge us again and again against their will.

  70. Pre-Installed by evilmonkey_666 · · Score: 1

    Is it still possible to get the money back off MS if you buy a computer with Windows PreInstalled, but you choose not to use it?

    --


    - PS. This is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R where eliminated.
  71. please, this HAS to be a JOKE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I too laugh at both M$ prices and the fact that their crap brings nothing but bugs, security holes and application/system inopperability to the table. I understand these companies being rather miffed. However, why are they getting the government involved. Did M$ sell them liscenses then reneg on them... then simply sue only to get either the liscenses back or the product as promised. If they are just pissed that M$ set their own price too high, then tough cookies. Let the market take care of it, and let M$ rot. By getting the government involved you just let it simmer and boil, all the while actually empowering M$ with the very same legislation used against it (see: DMCA bitting the hand that fed it). Please people, try and use your brains and THINK. Learn from history, dont repeat it.

    Pricing is how things are regulated... if one company prices too high it either learns soon and drops its prices or polishes up its resume and dies. Regulate this system and then you soon have policies that prevent smaller companies or organizations from legitimately competing because of slick lawyer-eze using the very same legislation used against the 'offending' company previously. Microsoft knows this and has their little band pumping and fluting away... thanks to you people dancing violently to its rhythm, you don't even realize you are puppets and slaves.

  72. This Was Predicted By Fred Hoyle! by jd · · Score: 2
    The title of one of his co-authored novels (the other author was Geofrey Hoyle) was "October 10th Is Too Late".


    This proves the visionary status of the late Sir Hoyle. Mind you, since it was a disaster novel (he blew up the entire history of humanity at the end), I'm not sure Microsoft would appreciate the parallels. :)

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  73. Having It Both Ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    From the linked C|Net article:


    Microsoft attorneys argue that any remedy in the case should be restricted to products at issue during the trial. In a report filed with the court on Thursday, Microsoft said the interim conduct remedies "are every bit as radical as the now-discarded proposal to break up the company."


    Okay, then, Microsoft, does this mean you won't complain at all if the idea of a breakup is revived?



    You can't have it both ways, Microsoft: if the conduct remedies are "every bit as radical" as the breakup rememdy, then it really shouldn't matter to you which remedy is chosen: the breakup remedy is "radical", the conduct remedies are "radical", why should you care which remedies are chosen?



    We all remember how loudly Microsoft bitched and whined about the breakup plan. Given that history, it's totally disgenuous for Microsoft to now be characterizing the conduct remedies as "every bit as radical". Typical Microsoft sleaziness.

  74. Why upgrade? by sheldon · · Score: 2

    A lot of comments here complaining about how Win95 is a perfectly reasonable OS and why should anybody waste money on WinXP.

    Which seems kind of strange, as these are probably the same people complaining about how Win95 sucks, crashes a lot and requires daily reboots.

    But on another point. If you were running Linux would you be content with using kernel versions dating back from 1995? I don't remember what version that would have been, probably early 1.x, but anyway...

    One of the reasons I stopped using Linux was because I found it difficult at the time to keep up with all the upgrades needed. I'd find new software but in order to use it my kernel would have to be at some level, and to do that meant upgrading libraries and compilers and such.

    While I think one of the compelling things about Windows is the fact that even a 6 year old version of the OS(Win95) can still work with a lot of modern software. The reality is that it is quite painful to try to live solely in that past and the new software with new hardware does give some very compelling features that makes life nice.

    I don't maintain a constant upgrade cycle, only when I feel I want to. I have a PIII-850, 768 Megs of RAM and a 30 Gig drive. I run Win2k. I have Office XP. But I still only have Money 2000, having seen no reason to upgrade to either 2001 or 2002 versions.

    I don't know. I think a lot of people just like to bitch. Do whatever you feel you need to do, but don't try to convince myself... I can make my own decisions.

    1. Re:Why upgrade? by praedor · · Score: 2, Informative

      You do not HAVE to upgrade in linux. I do periodically, less often than I used. The only upgrades that should be considered important and a no-pass are security upgrades.


      On my home system, I am happy with a working kernel behind my firewall with which my radeon card works well on. I haven't upgraded for a number of kernel cycles because "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I upgrade this or that for security reasons but that's about it. In any case, you can avoid the lib dependencies if you build your own kernel from source. It is not really difficult. Sure, it may SEEM intimidating the first time but once you do it a couple times (if you do it correctly, you are in no danger of screwing up your system or eliminating your current working kernel - and you can always go back to the working kernel at lilo...). Build it with what you have and it will work.


      Windoze, on the other hand, will provide a constant stream of bug-fix, security fixes well after they should have. It is too late to patch for nimba after all the 'doze boxen have been nailed. The damage is done and the next bug is being exploited.


      Also, with every single M$ package upgrade you do, you lose backwards compatiblity - for no good, valid reason whatsoever. There is NO reason to constantly dick with the word doc format except to FORCE users to upgrade (PAY$$$$). There is no point - you get the same functions that were working fine on the previous iterations plus a few dickwad things that NO ONE uses. But people get forced to upgrade because their colleagues did - or they bought a new broken system that has the latest version of microsnot crap on it and his/her apps are no longer compatible with yours which is merely the previous iteration. Now YOU feel compelled to upgrade ($$$$) so you can eliminate the problems of opening his/her documents broken with the latest gratuitous .doc alterations.


      Linux is FAR easier to deal with in this regard and you do not HAVE to upgrade this or that just because it is the newest version. That is M$-think. You need linux-think. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
    2. Re:Why upgrade? by sheldon · · Score: 2

      Sigh, sounds like someone else who just installed Linux last year and is now convinced it rewls. :(

    3. Re:Why upgrade? by praedor · · Score: 1

      Sorry, been using it for years. It has gotten easier and easier to install and after having reinstalled and reinstalled winders multiple times on the same dual boot system, linux is no more difficult to install than winders (distro-dependent).


      You throw a minor-league insult my way yet do not properly dispute my contention that you do not HAVE to constantly upgrade your linux system to the latest greatest if your system works fine for you NOW. There are people out there still using 2.2.19 kernels (GASP!) rather than the latest 2.4.x versions - and their systems are fine. Building a kernel is also not difficult - a bit more involved than simply doing an "rpm --rebuild" on a src rpm but still not difficult.


      My contention stands. You do not HAVE to constantly upgrade your linux system just because there is an update out there (again, disregarding security updates that affect you - if you are not a running a bunch of services, then you are not much of a target and so some security updates do not apply. If you do not want to upgrade your kernel via binary rpm, then build it. Simple. Then you do not need to also upgrade your glibc and a bunch of other libs just to use package x. If package x requires kernel y, then you DO have an option to build kernel y on your system as is, and then install the app x - in many cases too, if the app x binary was built against lib z.2 and you have lib z.1, then you can try building it against lib z.1 from the source rpm.


      There is no need to do the knee-jerk spiel about linux being difficult because it is different. Hell, Macs are "hard" then because they are different than winders. It is merely different and requires an adjustment from your winders-encoded preconceptions and weaknesses. You have been trained that OSes should be unstable, that you should have to pay for every minor upgrade, that viruses and worms are a normal aspect of computer use, that your current wordprocessor will magically become useless when the next version (again, with the GRATUITOUS alterations to the doc format) is released. Let go your Taliban mindset. Be free. Relax.

      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
    4. Re:Why upgrade? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2.2.19 is a very recent kernel.

      When Windows 95 was released it was version 1.2 or 1.3 that people were running.

      Go install a old version of Slackware and try to run KDE on it.

      The other poster is correct, you just ignored his point.

  75. Let's do a thought experiment.... by DickBreath · · Score: 2
    [Microsoft] can set whatever price (and price policy) they want.

    Let's do a little thought experiment here. Suppose Microsoft comes out with a wonderful new OS -- Windows Server Unix eXtinguisher -- or known as Windows S.U.X. Suppose that to add value to it, Win-SUX comes bundled with OfficeSUX and a personal finance manager. Furthermore SUX Pro comes bundled with a IIIS 8.0 (Internet Information Infector Service). Along with that, it has an e-commerce application and a built in database server. The consumer version of SUX comes with a free 100 hours of service for MS-SUX-World-Online, and with 10 free SUX-box games. In addition to that, to add even more value, they include a full blown flexible accounting system called Great SUX Pains. [...plus any other category of software where anyone is still making money and has not yet been bought by MS.]

    Now, obviously, SUX is a very valuable software product. One box that does everything. It has a lot of additional value over previous generations such as XP. After all, it even includes Office SUX.

    Microsoft decides that they'll begin shipping SUX on Jan 1, 2002, and the prices will be as follows.

    • $399 -- Personal Edition Upgrade
    • $599 -- Personal Edition new license
    • $799 -- SUX Professional
    • $2999 -- SUX Server -- including 5 CALs!!!!!
    • $9999 -- SUX Advanced Server

    What do you think?

    After all, as you say, Microsoft can set whatever price (and price policy) they want.

    Oh, and btw, better upgrade now. Otherwise, you'll have to pay full price on next year's higher prices (because the software has more "value added"). In fact, prices will go up each year. And you better get on the upgrade treadmill today if you don't want to be smacked with full price again.

    Steve Monkeyboy was quoted as saying..."Our customers have told us that they like the new SUX-Assurance program. By participating in that program, it gives us assurance that our stock prices will continue to go up each quarter."


    It's up to Microsoft's costumers to decide if it's more cost efficient to upgrade to Windows XP or take any other path

    Maybe there isn't any other path to take. [This is commonly referred to as a "monopoly".]

    After you buy your new Dell, bundled with Win SUX and Office SUX, I'm sure MS will be happy for you to take any other path you want. [You did realize that SUX requires 512 MB of RAM didn't you?]
    --

    I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
  76. Joe Sixpack will still use XP by Bastian · · Score: 2

    Big thing you forgot: Joe Sixpack doesn't choose what OS he runs. He is probably only dimly aware that there is one other choice (linux), and he is uneasy about the Penguin, because the people he knows who run linux are his console jockey friends who always succeed in making him feel inferior by fixing his computer from the DOS prompt, a creature which he is terrified of.

    Joe Sixpack got his computer with Windows pre-installed. That was the only option he had, because he bought his computer at Best Buy. Incidentally, he also has 6 months' worth of bills left on MSN service that he wants to get rid of so he can switch to cable modem service. He has seen Best Buy selling copies of Mandrake and Red Hat linux, but is uneasy about getting them - nobody told him that you don't have to uninstall Windows to try linux. He's never read that on the box, because the copies of linux are miles (4 aisles, at least!) away from the shoot-em-up games.

    So Joe Sixpack will still use XP. Microsoft will get Dell and Compaq and eMachines to package it with all new computers they make, because Microsoft can. Joe Sixpack will stick to Windows, because he is afraid of linux, and because he has never even heard of BSD, AtheOS, or BeOS. And frankly, none of them meet his needs, anyway - what home user wants an OS without ATAPI support, or a very hardcore Unix? Or an OS that is no longer even being made or supported? Nope, Windows is still the only option for the desktop, and if people go anywhere, they will go to Apple - which is why I evangelize Apple rather than Linux even though I am a linux nerd.

  77. Slightly OT: Deeply tasteful advert by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 2

    The Register is running a story about an advert - deeply tasteful under present conditions - which MicroSoft are running in the UK. As a matter of interest, is this advert being run in the US? If so, what it the reaction to it?

    --
    I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
  78. It's a monopoly... by Snootch · · Score: 1

    ...so in a word, "no." Price-fixing and/or abuse of a monopoly is a violation of US law. They lost the right to squeeze like that when their customers lost the oppertunity to choose. Therefore, they are in breach of previous court orders, neatly demonstrating exactly how effective it will be if we just slap their wrists and tell them to play nice once again.

    The EU seem to have the idea (yay us!). At least, we will until the next election, where suddenly certain leaders will receive large donations from a certain large company and the suit will fade away into the deep blue yonder...

  79. How dumb is this? by ikekrull · · Score: 3, Insightful


    'We think M$ software is too expensive, but we're not prepared to bite the bullet and use an alternative or fund the devlopment of other solutions to our problem.'

    With 880 million pounds - almost a billion pounds, well over a billion $US, you could easily afford to pay for a team to write an OfficeXP to Office97 file format converter, even if it meant that team of people had to spend every waking hour for a month figuring it out.

    You might even have a few bucks left over, like, ohh, about 879.8 million pounds, absolute worst-case scenario.

    With a few of those millions, enough people could be hired to work on OpenOffice, StarOffice, KOffice or the GNOME Office suite to make it, if not a total replacement, at least a workable alternative to Office XP.

    This, essentially one-time, investment would save the next 4-year period's 1.2 billion pound bill, as M$ jacks the price up again, since nobody has bothered to get off their fat corporate ass and do something about it.

    Its like these companies have voluntarily beached themselves like whales and are letting a giant vulture (i.e. Microsoft) slowly eat their flesh while they slowly die of suffocation in the blistering sun.

    --
    I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
  80. Oh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought Microsoft was investigating someone else.

    I just recieved a veiled threat in the mail from MS the other day that loosely said, "You better have a license, bucko, or our Sardaukar will descend upon your House and salt your earth!"

    Go figure, I haven't ever bought an MS product other than a sidewinder joypad. The version of Windows I use for games came with my last store-bought PC, several years ago.

    And I actually have a license!

    Bring it, Sylvia!

  81. a better use for 880 million pounds by lowieken · · Score: 0

    * a 100 million pounds donation to the openoffice project
    objective: premium quality office software (without the viruses)

    * a 100 million pounds investment in MS Exchange alternatives
    objective: premium quality groupware (without the viruses)

    * a 100 million pounds donation to the gnu project (a 20000 pct budget increase for them)
    objective: the enemy of my enemy is my friend, he'll have plenty of good ideas

    * a 200 million pounds support initiative for alternatives to Microsoft software

    * a 300 million pounds marketing campaign for alternatives to Microsoft software

    * an 80 million pound investment in a free drink for every UK citizen (I'll have a glass of Sauternes wine, thank you:-)

  82. The moral? by kimihia · · Score: 1

    And what's the moral of the story? Don't squeeze the ketchup bottle!

  83. What people are missing (MCSE...) by fugu23 · · Score: 1

    What many are missing is the fact that our fellow BOFHs have to learn _yet another_ OS.
    There were a lot of MCPs for Win 95.
    There are a lot of MCSEs for Win NT.
    There are not as many MCSEs for Win 2k.
    There are even less who can handle the innards of Win XP.

    Training, and the inevitable learning curve (not to mention trying to figure out where and how to patch this new beast) will prove to be far far far more expensive than any silly upgrade cost.

    Business people still can't see that one.

    --
    r. (Do not deny not by denying)
  84. Check this site by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    out:
    http://www.technologyreview.com/magazine/may99/q a. asp

    "Titans Talk Tech: Bill G. and Michael D. May/June 1999"
    And these are Bill G.'s own words:

    Contrast the old proprietary computing model, where software accounted for a high proportion of system cost, with the PC model, where software is only a tiny percentage of overall cost. That comparison makes much of today's PC software seem almost free.

    Maybe Slashdot should ask Bill G. to explain why Microsoft software is now getting more expensive than the PCs themselves.

  85. You just missed a trial, finding of facts, etc. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    And a check of reality.

    MS has been declared a monopoly. Jump, rant, scream, a judge and the US supreme court agreed about that.

    Deal with it.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  86. I have an idea... by 10Ghz · · Score: 1

    After reading how much it will cost in the future to use MS-software and reading how Linux is not yet 100% ready to replace Windows in the desktop...



    Why not switch to Linux, and give say 10% of the savings to the Linux-community? Give it to the developers who hack the kernel. Give it to developers who write applications. Give it to people making the desktops. Give it to companies selling Linux-distros. Now, money wont solve everything, but that money could significantly boost the development to make Linux polished product that not only could replace Windows on end-users desktop but that would also put Windows to shame on the desktop!

    --
    Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
  87. EULA allowing downgrades by sheldon · · Score: 2

    Found it...
    http://www.microsoft.com/permission/copyrgt/cop- so ft.htm

    "Microsoft does allow the downgrading of current versions of retail Microsoft software on a case-by-case basis by special permission, (unless such permission is already granted to you under your Microsoft product End User License Agreement (EULA)). "

  88. Held hostage by internal terrorists by troykoelling · · Score: 1

    By Troy Koelling
    September 28, 2001

    History repeats itself and our past predicts this grim desolation. Monstrous governments oppress the people into their ways. They crush all creative thought by forcing people to strive to survive. Why should they need to think anyway? The government provides them with perfectly wonderful conditions. You couldn't make it better by trying so why try? Artwork dies and shades of gray mask the landscape. People don't notice because they pay large sums of maintenance fees. The maintenance fees pay the upkeep of spies that brutally barge in on your private establishments and check for unlawful material.
    The Tyranny lays siege and what can anyone do about it? Traitors to the crown must die. Its common knowledge so why don't the people feel threatened? Is it because they believe the social classes they live in are stable and as long as they can suffer through the next tax period they will prosper? Do they really think the suffocating weight on their chest will be removed if they can make it financially for one more year? Do they not know that the next year will be even harder because the King will have set his eyes on some new grail and your pockets are his personal war treasuries? The people know. They just hope that by selling their soul early they will find favor under the eyes of their master.
    We have seen this motif throughout history so prominently that it transfers to our literature. Books that scientifically theorize the future of mankind depict humans ruled by an all-powerful oppressor. One who cannot be pinned down because it is not simply one person guiding or crushing the masses. It's industry and corporation. On October 1st, Bill Gates will demand from you your first tax payment. Will you pay?