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Technology and Society
nyquist_theorem writes: "MSNBC has an interesting article entitled Billy gets a laptop that covers the Harley-riding independent governor of Maine's take on technology and its role in government. While previous coverage on Slashdot covered the governor's plan to give his 7th graders laptops, this article offers a glimpse of that all-too-rare breed, the insightful, technologically aware bureaucrat - in this case discussing the sociological implications of the net in the wake of Sept 11th. The article also mentions some of the other measures the government of Maine is taking to use the net in ways that actually benefit its citizens."
great, they can IM each other instead of passing notes to each other when the teacher isn't looking
Instead of giving people the electric chair he gives them electrical equipment!
I'll Sig you!
If the teachers don't have the means to teach the 7th graders won't have the means to learn. A laptop will get you pretty far, but not everybody just "learns" how to use a computer intuitively like many of us on this forum have.
Luck favors the prepared, darling.
Cool, he must make the world-famous high-quality Angus fine beef that we all have grown to love. I wonder what his take is on episode where "Billy" is introduced to the slaughtering house by the celebrity "Troy McClure" (you may remember him from such films as...).
;-)
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
I disagree, computers are fairly easy to learn, espesialy for kids. I know that most 12 year olds won't understand the inticises of Linux, but im a certain they'd be able to use mandrake-linux, after only a few weeks of using it.
I'll Sig you!
unfortunately, he implies that government is the only source of "the big mass of stuff that allows us to get about our lives". industry has provided us with most of the things that we use in our lives. anybody REALLY want a US Gov. brand car?
--
fight global cooling
as this may go against many of the geeks beliefs, i believe laptops would be close to deadly. it is during these years that you need to actually start focusing. i know from experience that whenever i got a hold of a computer during middle and high school , i would use the computer for the purposes they weren't meant for. restrictions could easily bipassed, so instead of reading about biology, i would be "surfing the net" and looking at slashdot, etc. computers = death of brain. just imagine YOURSELF with a computer in middle school during a boring class. what would you do? something bad or good?
if I can give-back my Engineering degree in Comp. Sci., and my high school degree as well, and move to Maine in hopes of finally getting my own laptop?!!!
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
This radio interview with the gov really says more than the articles...(realplater, WinMedia, and quicktime) here: http://www.wired.com/news/school/0,1383,45866,00.h tml#
BTW: I think this is really a great idea, and although its bound to be misunderstood and misimplemented by many teachers and administrators, it does have the potential to really benefit TONS of students. I'm encouraged by the governors actual awareness that faculty will need just as much training and help (if not more) than any of the kids. Good stuff.
.sig wanted: Must be concise, funny, and display my cleverness.
I'm writing this from my school laptop now (Melbourne Australia), but I'm only one of probably 20 or so people out of the 400 people in years 11 & 12 that use their laptops frequently. Most of them will only use them when the are forced to
/* FUCK - The F-word is here so that you can grep for it */
ISP stands for 'infrastructure service provider.
:D
This is about where I switched off
Talez
In politics, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The desired action occurs in the short term. The undesired action takes a while to occur. Since everyone can see the desired action, people sometimes praise government action because it seems to accomplish its goals. In the long term, though, government action hurts people. Why? Because governments find it hard to take action which hurts in the short term (thereby producing the long-term gain).
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Every person raised on the 'net from an early age, by the government. It's the next best thing to having Big Brother right in your very own home! Whoo hoo!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Yeah, that's great. Take my hard-earned tax dollars and give a laptop to some greasy little punk so he can play quake during math class. There's nothing rare about a bureaucrat with no qualms about spending other people's money whenever and wherever it can buy him a vote or two.
I graduated from high school not too long ago. I was one of the generation that was supposed to be propelled forward by the "computing revolution".
IMHO, computers have no place in schools, at least not until upper level classes where a computer is necessary (say, a basic computer literacy class, but more importantly, programming courses). My experience with computers in school consisted of the following:
1) "Educational games" that were neither fun nor particularly educational. Among the ones I remember were those I played during the monthly trek to the "math lab" in Junior High; stupid things where you added numbers and a correct answer would advance you closer to a goal. Whoop-de-do... I could have learned those fractions a lot easier in a classroom.
2) A few "multimedia" computers in the library playing movies of cheetahs. This was during the era when "multimedia" was first rearing its head. Each one of these 486s with a CD-ROM and monitor probably cost the district $3,000, and possibly more.
3) Computer "literacy", which taught basic point-and-click on ancient (even at that time) Apple IIe units. A wonderful waste of a semester.
Which left us with the one actually useful application (outside of CS): Writing lab, so that students who didn't have a computer at home could type their papers.
When I look at these massive expenditures, I can't help but think how angry the teachers must be. A fairly reasonable estimate (even for the dinky little CE machines) for purchase and maintenance of those units would be around $8,000 for a classroom of 28 students. Can you imagine the jump in the quality of teaching applicants a district would receive if even $4,000 of that amount were being given to the teacher?
Instead, districts and states are forced to give in to "feel-good" programs like this. Parents think that these computers are giving their children a "head start" on the "high tech" world out there (buzzwords used for emphasis). What the system is really doing is (inadvertantly) discouraging quality teachers who would have made a far bigger influence on their child's life than ANY computer could have ever made.
Computers do have a place in schools, but that place should be very, very limited. Say, 10-20 computers in a library for research (ideally running linux on a lower end ~500mhz system to save money), a gang of 30 or so computers available in a writing lab for students before, after, and during school, and a classroom of computers for any programming course. Beyond that, I don't think districts or states should squander precious funds that could be paying teachers or repairing schools.
While I applaud Mr. King's efforts to improve the services that the state of Maine provides by implementing technical solutions, he should remember that technology is not a solution in and of itself.
I fear that merely throwing hardware at the class of 2006 will provide very few with any significant benefit. Now I am sure there will be the occasional adventurous student who will discover their own means of benefiting from this windfall, but for the masses I believe it will cause more confusion than benefit.
I doubt seriously that the majority of junior high school teachers have the knowledge of how to thoroughly implement the new machines into the their daily lesson plans. Do they know how to reinstall the OS, or how to configure the computer to print to a different printer when the class's primary printer goes belly-up?
Hopefully these issues, and others have been taken into account and resolved, but I would not hold my breath. My guess is that the primary benefit will be the extra strength training the kids will receive in having an extra 5 - 10 lbs in their book bags every day.
I've had the oppurtunity to meet this man, and I must say he's even more impressive in person. We had a long talk about technology and schools and the future, and for the first time I walked away from talking with a politician feeling *good* about the future.
/.'ers are probably going to question the reasoning behind giving middle schoolers laptops, and to them I can only say that just _having_ the laptops will increase they're technological awareness. It's espically important up here in Maine, where there is almost no high-tech industry.
A lot of
It makes me smile to know that now he's finally getting the recognition I've always thought he's deserved. Definatly an honor to say I voted for him.
I wish people would quit free-loading off of opensource software and start coding.
We need every piece of code that we can get. Big projects such as Mozilla have recently announced that they are going to freeze many of the features until after Mozilla 1.0 is out. This is probably due to all the free-loaders not writing and contributing new features to the project.
...but I digress. Anyways, the Slashdot servers have been having uptimes of ~24 hours and I have been able to actively post ~60% percent of the time without formkey errors and static pages. This means that that other 60% should be taken up with new Slashcode features to enhance user experience and put the servers through more work. Remember, a wasted clock cycle can NEVER be regained.
So Start coding and do America a favor.
Keeping
*) Angus King (Maine's governor) is on his way out of office - his second term expires shortly. This is his "going out with a tekno-cool bang".
*) Funds have *not* been appropriated for the laptop-for-7th-graders program; people are being asked to donate laptops to it. Needless to say, they aren't anywhere near the number of laptops we need. Does anybody really think that Maine has enough money for laptops for all of its children?
Sure, Maine is the coolest state in the USA - but for a different (better) reason.
We drink Moxie.
In michigan, the governor is spending a zillion dollars to give every kid a laptop. But there is no way to get it fixed, get any software you might need, or learn how to use it. And you wont be getting a new one in a few years when this one gets old.
Well, thats a waste of millions of dollars. Most teachers don't know how to use computers. The ones that do could probably make good use out of a laptop, but is it really worth it to give everyone a computer at a cost of tens of millions of dollars?
At least kids could put better use to them, but personally I think it would be better if needy kids who couldn't afford a desktop at home could apply and get one. And if a kid already has a computer, put that cash to good use on something else. Like an extra teacher, building repairs, a field trip, new books, etc.
Or, to take a more technology related course of action, develop a computer curriculum that doesn't suck. I graduated from a relatively well off community 4 years ago, and our High School had 2300 students. Our computer curriculum was two classes: Typing, and learning MS Office. And it was the windows 3.1 version of office when Office 95 was out...useless skills. And being MS I'm sure you all think useless in general. We need to be offering some higher quality tech classes.
whenever I type a key in the browser or when connected to the internet.
Does a 7th grader need with a laptop????
Hell, even as an ENGINEERING student in COLLEGE, I didn't have my own computer. You see, I was there to, um, learn how to actually *DO* things. Computers are a good tool to do those things, but you really need to learn what it is the computer is doing to make it worthwhile! We didn't learn how to use commercial FEM in school. We learned the equations and methods, then wrote our own.
What, exactly, will a laptop be used for in the teaching of algebra, history, writing? Does nobody use books and teachers anymore? WTF???
This stuff scares the hell out of me. We are not teaching our kids to think or research. We are teaching them how to let a computer figure it out instead.
How can this country ever hope to innovate new ideas, etc, if the children never have to figure out *HOW* computers work, and *HOW* to derive equations, systems, text, etc. to accomplish a given task?
The univeristy I got my first degree from, Acadia University in Nova Scotia, Canada, gives all its students AND all its faculty IBM Thinkpads. It's a very small (less than 4000 students) but well-respected university a few hours north of Maine. Every residence room is wired with 100mbit ethernet to a decent internet pipe, as is every classroom, parts ot the campus pub, most on-campus hangouts, and the first two floors of the library. Even the town, with a population of less than 4,000 (not including the students) has both cable and DSL available for $39CAD (~$25USD)/mo. It's a wired place.
The students really do all use the laptops, and for more than ICQing from one side of class to another (although that's fun too). My fourth year, I was a teaching assistant, and one of my assignments was to moderate online discussion groups for classes on ACME (Acadia's online discussion and coursework system) - one of the things my professors and I found was that the students making the most intelligent posts online were often NOT the students making intelligent points in class - opening up online discussion allowed a lot of shy, nervous, or whatever people to come out and say their piece to the class in a forum that they were comfortable in. Professors really do reply to their emails, and students and professors alike use powerpoints and websites on a regular basis.
Also, because students were posting on a forum (like Slashdot), URLs and other methods of backing points in their arguments up was quite common, and helped to add a level of intelligence and legitimacy to discussions.
Overall, the Acadia Advantage, as it is called, works quite well - while there are some who criticize it, enrollment at the school is up substantially, and students are well-trained in internet research methodology, online collaboration, web publishing, and lots more regardless of their major. It works, and it gets a lot of attention in Canada (its why I chose the school in the first place). Hopefully the same benefits will be seen in giving the computers to younger kids, as the man from Maine proposes.
-- "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." (Charles Darwin)
no found.
Governor King is exceptional in that he recognizes a need amongst Maine schoolkids and is working to offer a solution rather than simply talk about the need for reform. If more politicians/government agencies/etc were to become doers instead of staying critics, government would serve the will of the people is a much more fluid fashion.
I emailed Angus King a few weeks ago after the Wired interview and was pleasantly surprised when I got a personal response to my questions. This kind of personal attention to detail is one of the reasons that he was re-elected by such a majority and why he continues to serve the State of Maine in the manner in which he does: effectively.
And all of this has what to do with what a 7th grader should be learning?
I know I was into computers at that age, but it was a hobby outside of school. School needs to focus on the basic skills (building blocks) that will let that kid make his hobby (the computer) even more rewarding, since he'll actually learn and understand far more than he could ever have on his own.
Modern media is extremely diverse in it's offerings. People can now get news of any type and/or political bent they wish. Religous fenatics can get religous news; geeks can get geek news. Groups on the fringe can reinforce their beliefs by reading, viewing and absorbing only information that conforms with their world view. It's important that e recognize though, that these risks are the cost of doing business; table stakes for enhancing societal efficiency and value threough ease of access to information.
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
teachers have a hard time getting kids attention in class. why are you giving them another distraction?
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
The old reading books from the 1960's that were put in storage when it was decided that they were too violent are back out again, because there isn't enough money for new reading books (and the kids love them, plus the violence was pretty tame for any time other than the 90's).
If every kid has a laptop, something else has got to go. If there is a desktop for every kid, a bit less has to go. The only advantage of the laptop is that the kids can use them on the bus. If the kid can book out a desktop system that they can use at home, then they have a computer at home. You can buy a lot more than two PC's for the price of a laptop, and you still wouldn't need a full PCs per student. Laptops typically have a short and nasty life in comparison to a desktop system. Also, most schools already have a lot of desktop systems. Just because it's an old box doesn't mean that it can't run matlab and teach the best and brightest students - it just won't run quake II or above.
I went and read the portion of quaker.org you link to in your .sig, Mr. Nelson, and I'd like to explain something. What occurred is a crime of massive proportions. Adequate evidence has been collected, I believe, to without a doubt implicate Bin Ladin and a large, if disbursed terrorist organization surrounding him. Why do I believe that? Immediately after the attack, various NATO nations were calling for a complete and undoubtable presentation of evidence before any action was taken. In about a week, all those countries, including Turkey, Norway, and the Netherlands, who originally were loudly demanding actions be forestalled, were in full support of US actions, provided they were undertaken with care. None of those nations have lodged complaints since. Conclusion: they were persuaded, so therefore there is evidence.
So why, you ask, doesn't the public get to see that evidence? Eventually, you will, however, the difficulty in fighting a terrorist organization is in gathering dependable intelligence. We DO NOT want to reveal our sources, because then we lose them. I don't generally trust the US government blindly, but that some extremely liberal European nations are persuaded, and Turkey, who is islamic, was as well, speaks in favor of trust for the US.
But how, you ask, can we attack Afghanistan? After the first WTC bombing attempt, the US court system had found Bin Ladin guilt of a very serious crime:conspiracy to cause multiple murders. The finding was backed up by judicial review in countries from Russia to England, most of whom agreed to make him a wanted man under the extradition treaties that civilized nations maintain amongst each other. The WTC bombing cas was not Mumia Abu Jamal, there were no shades of grey, and evidence was used conclusively. However, Afghanistan doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US, and hence, OBL has been there since. The military operations, I truly believe, are being carried out with great care.
Final point: I strongly respect pacifists, however, I believe that in a world where evil still exists, pacifism cannot work as foriegn policy. Don't tell me wars never solve anything. WWII killed some german civilians who may not have supported the Nazis, however, you'll be hard pressed to persuade me that they were not a reasonable sacrifice in stopping hitler. And yes, Germany was in a recession, and reparations were unreasonable, but that did not mean that once war began, involvement was not justifiable. Simialarly, there may be some awful accidental deaths, and there may be some causes behind our enemy, but that does not invalidate our reaction.
My Karma is so good, I'm the Dalai Lama...or something.
What use is a few computers in library or the back of the classroom? Suppose you had to learn to read that way. You're only allowed near books a few hours a week, under supervision. Please!
I'm not acquainted with the details of the Vermont program, but there are schools that have gotten good results with classroom computers. They do it by giving the students continuous access to computers. One student, one computer. With wireless LANs so they can use them in the classroom. This has a positive effect on all aspects of learning, not just computer skills.
Also, if female teachers live in Arabia they will get a free clitorectomy.
The clitoris is removed so that they can fouus more clearly on their
work. That is the way they treat women in those countries.
Moderate Governor King up!
Bush's education improvements were
When I was in school, they had a "students with laptops" program - essentially, if you had a laptop, you could bring it to school and use it instead of books.
It ended up being the worst 3 weeks at school. It was quite a while ago, so my Laptop only had 1 hour of battery power - every other class I was moving my desk or trying to find somewhere with a power point. On top of that, since it was a 486, I spent 2-3 minutes just waiting for Word to open. Maths was impossible, and Computing Studies was ironically also a waste of time, since I was forced to use their dodgy programs rather than my own, not to mention that most of the CS Teachers were just other teachers who filled spots ("CorelDRAW? No, I'm sorry, you have to use Canvas, since it lets you draw lines").
It ended abruptly when my laptop was stolen. Fortunately it was recovered, but literally just before the kid who stole it was about to hand it over to someone outside the school for $$$.
While it might be different now (longer battery life, books online/net access), I still think in general it's a bad idea.
IMHO, I would not give the kiddies a laptop until they know a little about how a computer really works. The old Bell Labs CARDIAC "system", a cardboard computer, was really great for this and cheap too. Of course, you don't have to buy this, you can make your own. There are also a large number of software simulators too.
Using slide rules is a simple, mechanical operation that differs from using calculators only in that it is slower and less accurate. It teaches nothing worth learning.
Yeah, it's fucking brilliant to deprive engineers in training of practice with one of their most important tools in favor of practice with an obsolete, inferior tool.
While we're at it, why not have them build everything with vacuum tubes? That'll prepare 'em for the real world!
the big controversy was calculators in the classroom. And sure enough many of my less numerate peers never learned basic math skills. Would they have been forced to learn them if they didn't have the crutch of a calculator? Open question. Now with computers they won't have to learn how to spell either. It's bad enough I have to suffer with the near innumeracy and illiteracy of many otherwise brilliant recent grads. This old fart only sees this making things worse.
Why don't we use all that money to improve the education process, instead of allowing every 7th grader in the state look at porn during class...
7th graders getting a laptop is a bad idea for many reasons.
i recently finnished college, and am working in an it related capacity
1.my reliance on technology means that i need a machine to do things that my parents were taught to do in there heads.
2. laptops in class make it easier not to follow the class by provideing distractions.
3. they will get broken. part of my current job is to repair college laptops. college students manage to mangle them well, imagine what what 7th graders would/could do to them
IT has nothing to do with the tools
When i was in school i couldnt focus with a pen and paper, I'd draw and pass notes to my friends.
With a laptop it wont be any diffrent. However the diffrence is, for the kids who can focus at that age, they will definately get better grades.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Laptops/computers don't teach kids, teachers do. "Educational" software is a joke. The engineers that sent us to the moon didn't have all this crap growing up; they were lucky to have sliderules. Kids now can't do any simple math without the aid of a calculator. They are educated just enough to become good little consumers.
You dont need to do a math problem a million times to understand the principle of how its done.
I was allowed to use calculators in math class, I admit i'm not good at math, but i'd be far worse if i had to do algebra, trig, and statistics by hand because theres no way i would do my math work without a calculator
Not because i dont know how to do it, but because it takes too long.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
A laptop would be a godsend
Imagine your english teacher telling you stuff and you typing the notes
then she says use that information to write an essay and you just edit your notes a bit and print it right there.
I've seen somenoe do this.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
First of all, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments about schools' purchases of computers, and their ultimate disuse of them. I graduated from high school two years ago last May, and I saw how our systems were, or were not, used. Probably a million dollars' worth of equipment throughout the district (and I'm not exaggerating--between the labs with IBM Eduquest-series PC's, Novell network software, and token ring networking, to the teachers' systems, Digital machines on ethernet, which were replaced after four (IIRC) years, across a high school, three middle schools, and I don't remember how many elementaries, plus admin buildings), and most of them were only minimally used. Teachers often had only passing familiarity with the systems; one used the system primarily to collect South Park clips (in RealMedia format, no less!), with many others in the same category. Windows licensing no doubt cost a small fortune, to achieve a network with almost as much reliability as a 15-year-old Chevy. All of the copies of Office were at least one version out of date, making it a royal PITA for most students to transfer work from home to school (and no e-mail for students, either--sneakernet only). Bess, that wonderful internet proxy, stopped more useful research than it did pr0n. Students were limited to eight (IIRC) pages of hard copy from the printers at any given time--meanwhile, those of us in Honors English were writing papers that often ran to eighteen. Yes, the systems were a waste. The administration was not exactly the most clueful, either, but what do you expect on a public school salary?
The big thing about the funding, though, is that most of it couldn't have been used any better. Most of the funding for our computers came from grants, with stipulations that the money be used to bring technology into the classroom. I never did find out who donated the money (MS, trying to get another group of kids, and another school, hooked on Wind'ohs?), but the stipulations were clear--no tech, no dough. It would have been nice to have money that could be used to hire some decent teachers (we had a few very good ones, but we had a number of not-so-good ones too...names withheld to protect the guilty...). From what I'm told, this is actually a fairly common situation. If the money were to be given to the general fund, it would be a lot more useful. I understand why it is not, having seen how our administration handled itself (yes, i actually attended school board meetings; dad and I made a sport of embarrassing board members)--I know what would likely have happened. So, while I agree that the money could be better used, before complaining, it might be wise to check out the source of the money, and see if there were other options. The administrators might have their hands tied. 'Course, they might also just be dolts. (OR, not XOR.)
"Make it ten--I am only a poor corrupt official."
--Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains), Casablanca
A kid could use the laptop to do his homework AT school.
A kid could use the laptop to do MORE english work than he could possible handwrite, 10 page papers now dont sound so bad when you have microsoft word.
The owner of the laptop can LEARN to install an OS by teaching themselves, the way way I learned computers and most people here.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
English, Writing, etc, well since a laptop has a word processor, that answers your question.
History? The internet.
Homework? Do do it on your way home from school or in school.
Math? ok math is hard to do on laptops, but anything dealing with text is easier on a computer than hand writing it.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Give the kids a laptop today and they will wind up hanging at The Remote Lounge tomorrow.
The Maine Governor's "vision for the future" starts out with an unconscious reference to Travis Bickle's "I've got to get organisized" that left me with vertiginous nausea. The guy seems to be a politico with a New Age rap, nothing more. A laptop in every pot? A poor political slogan, there are much better uses for cash, as the consensus here (among technophiles!) confirms.
BTW, the MSNBC article seems a poor choice for a means to examine the "Pop!Tech" gathering, a once-over-lightly where several more in-depth looks at the participants may have been more worthwhile. That is available through the Pop!Tech website, linked above.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
You guys act like a Laptop is a toy or something.
A laptop is a portible computer. Now i dont know about you, but my computer was the key to my success in school, I used it to do my homework, to study, etc.
We would use the computers at school to surf the net to get information for assignments and research, we would type up papers and submit them for review, and because they were typed, handwriting was not an issue nor was spelling. This helped us because learning to write isnt about having nice fancy handwriting or being a spelling bee champion.
And if there were laptops in school, i think it would bring everyone closer together, people may actually study with one another via the net.
People from seperate classes even!
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Some people just arent good at math or spelling.
Should a genius at say science, not get a chance because he failed math class in 5th grade?
Einstien failed math you know.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
i was a 4.0 student through most of high school. then i got a computer. i stopped doing my homework, and instead surfed the 'net. i'd play with verious things online, or with the computer, every chance i'd get instead of doing my homework.
now, in college, i can still quite well pay attention in class. but give me an internet connection, and i'll zone out and occupy my time quite wastefully
and i know that i, just like you, am not authoritative for the rest of the population. however, i am an example that these could be quite bad. just as you are an example on how they could be quite good.
shalom
Brian Voils
"A university is what a college becomes when the faculty loses interest in students."
Perhaps if you were willing to teach every programming language to every Linux user on the planet earth, Then they all could contribute to projects.
Problem is, not every linux user is a programmer, the ones which are may not be programmers in C++ or C, and THEN the ones who program in C like myself, may not be good enough at it to contribute anything useful.
Please think before you talk, because such an opinion is exactly why only 0.1 percent of the population is using linux and why Linux is known as the geek OS.
Accept people with open arms, teach them, and motivate them to code, make them like coding, dont yell at them, call them leeches and freeloaders, and push them away.
If you want more coders, or more linux users, advocate coding, if a person cannot code advocate donations to make up for it, or ask them to write documentation, theres many ways to contribute without coding.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I wonder how many of these laptops will end up on eBay, or just sitting in someone's closet...
Just because I AM paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get me.
What's this "notes" thing that people talk about? :)
... if they gave the money to, oh say, better teachers, better textbooks, more schools, smaller classes, etc. I don't mean to troll or anything, I'm actually glad to see that at least someone in america is still focused on education, but I honestly think that the money could be better spent.
If Stephen King is any reflection on the rest of the Maine populace, then I can easily believe that state's residents are all ugly fucks.
In elementary and middle schools, students were taught to learn Apple // Logo. This was great because it helped you to learn geometry and basic math. I recalled one of my favorite teachers had one of those cool Apple // Logo turtles (robotic; screen shots).
I remembered when each student/group had a specific project on how to draw simple objects. We had to figure out the commands to draw it (e.g. fd 90, rt 90, etc.). Now, this was a good example of an educational. This was useful to me in math classes and drafting/architectures.
Another good one was the typing project for us to type very well and fast. This was important for high school, college, workplaces, etc. I thought some parts of the computer classes were beneficial to me.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Unfortunately, the box is in chicago and I'm in NY. I access the machine via vnc.
A much better idea would be to give then some sort of ruggerised palm or winCE device (maybe even pocketlinux when it matures). They have the advantages of being,
Cheaper, even the most expensive examples are still more then a third the cost of a laptop.
More portable
Longer battery life
At least as hackable
Are worth while replacement for calculators, textbooks etc that students already need to carry around.
In short much much better then a laptop. Hell why dosen't this guy give Merc's to every student just so they learn how to drive a luxury sedan, it's only taxpayers money.
This is just another brain dead policy proposed to win votes without thinking things though. Like giveing laptops to the homeless, a while ago.
www.drudgereport.com, read it, Mitnik
What we had is a cross-discipline program: in our Physics class, we learned how to collect experimental data (and what the data means). In our statistics class, we learned how to plot and analyze any data (including the one from physics). And in our Pascal class (yes, Pascal is lame, but still), we learned how to write programs so that all that data needn't be analyzed by hand.
As the result, I gained a much deeper understanding of the subject. It is always easier to understand something by explaining it to another person - and the computer is an ideal "person" for these purposes. It's extra-stupid, but it works fast (actually, the same is true of a TI-85 graphing calculator, but the TI-85 has the added benefit of being portable). And of course, programming is much more fun when you actually have a real problem in mind (calculate where the rocket will land), as opposed to some contrived excercise (write nested loops all day, whee). In any case, computers actually helped me learn, and made the process more enjoyable.
In summary, computers DO have their place in the classroom - not as glorified CD players, dumb Internet terminals or word processors, but as programmable multi-purpose tools. Which is what computers have been originally designed to do, actually.
>|<*:=
I wrote this when I was 8, over 20 years ago.. this will never be seen again..
TOO MANY RUNAWAYS
Runaways with the Rich and Famous travel highways like the Route to India the
playwright have become more or less a life to many many Wonderful World of
Disney employees who tend to break a leg we don't have all day may stay at my
place tonight. They sleep in their cars for sale by owner and spend the night
of the living dead next to the road into town and shot the sheriff the
song; while, we the people of the you and I Ted states some lie the wife
will believe it or not.
On the other hand it to them others work at inns and outs from start your
engines gentlemen while trying to find good job actions from the union.
Before the hey know it assault and bad Terry is the obvious runaway killer
waves dude falls upon them. Now and then the next question and answer
comes and goes the weasel that inlaw of miners forty niners discover only
fools gold. Zodiac my reason for worrying of these souls should be
expressed train the hat understanding in line for the concert tickets their
past will help themselves make goal liners while finding a new this is your
life in the fast lane with lots of coupons thus saving their future.
Consider - a couple hundred years ago, basic literacy was really an optional luxury for most people, not a requirement...
>|<*:=
The problem is that all school does is repeat over and over again the same information, and in most cases it never sticks permanently. Personally I think the idea of "building blocks", while intuitively it seems to make sense, is not the best way to learn. I always found the best way to learn is to get thrown into something, and let the brain learn the basics by analyzing and breaking down the complicated. Give the kids a laptop, and maybe a few of them will have the tenacity to mess around with it until it makes sense to them...
Laptops for 7th graders? And why don't we get them all PS2's while we're at it ... The last thing we need to do is give every kid in 7th grade the M$ drone training program. Instead we need to teach Math and programming classes differently.
Arithmatic should be taught in grades 1-3 instead of 1-5. We all have calculators now and its ok if it takes you a few extra seconds to divide 37 into 34564 by hand. We need to teach algebra earlier, say from grades 4-6. Then grades 7-12 can focus on geometry, trig,calc, probability/stat, and most importantly discrete mathematics.
*RANT*
The number of high schools that have manditory discrete math courses is very few (in the US). The one area of math that is most usefull in an information economy isn't being taught. Permuations, combinations, graphs, codes, and algorithms are WAY more useful than anything you will get out of an intro calculus course.
Many calculus techniques are becoming outdated. (Don't get me wrong here, Calculus is a MUST for those that are Science/Math inclined, but its importance is much less for those in the middle of the bell curve.) Instead of making continious approximations of our data we now have the computing power to crunch the whole data set. Algorithm efficency is becoming more important than how to do nasty Trig substitutions or integration by parts. The biggest problem is that there is no AP test for Discrete Math. Why take the course if you aren't required to, and you don't get college credit for it?
*END_RANT*
As far as programming courses go, they should be manditory and probably be integrated with math courses. No more BASIC. Start kids out with C++/JAVA/Scheme/Python in 7th grade. By the time they graduate highschool every student should be able to abstract, design, code, and debug simple programming problems involving IO, conditionals, boolean algebra, loops, and a slight amount of recursion.
I would much rather see collage freshmen who knew [INSERT PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE] with a discrete math background than a student who could use Powerpoint/Word/Excel.
bash-2.04$
bash-2.04$yes "Don't you hate dialup connections?"| write USERNAME
When you show me a program that will let me draw lines and diagrams with the same ease I can do it on paper, then I'll think about switching. But in the meantime it's a hell of a lot faster to draw with pen on paper than with mouse on screen.
As for reusing your notes as an essay, if you're taking notes verbose enough to be able to do that, then your notes are too verbose. You can't concentrate on rearranging your teacher's statements into essay-suitable format without missing some of the content itself (unless you're a brilliant writer, in which case you wouldn't need to resort to tricks like that in the first place).
Sure you were unimpressed with the equipment and training you received . . . but YOU are not one that will benefit the most from computer use at an early age. A comp literacy class to a slashdotter = a Mr. Wizard episode to Steven Hawking.
:) . The other will flip burgers or drive the bus as a victim of the digital divide.
/.'ers and the underpriveleged. Some will have fun with it and be bored while learning things they already know, while the others will gain critical experience that will put them ahead of children from other school districts.
But many of us aren't tech-priveleged. Imagine two teens from low income households without computers. One has had some basic office app experience from school, the other hasn't. The one with the small amount of experience isn't about to become a unix admin, but can at least comfortably type reports, do office work or become an MCSE
The governor of Maine made a point of making laptops available to ALL 7th graders, that means both the future
I dont mean to be critical, but your dismay over the "inferiority" of your grade school comp classes is selfish. Try and look at it from the vantage point of an under-privelegd child.
My old man teaches 5th grade in maine. Their network (sAD 40 I believe) has been down for pretty much the last year and a half because there's nobody there to keep the trains moving. My dad certainly can't help. On his salary he can't afford to upgrade his 386.
Supporting this thing's going to be a nightmare. I spent some time in a school with laptops. Not a class period went by when the class wasn't paralyzed by some technical problem. 5 to 10 minutes of boot time at the top of a 40 minute class...ugh.
As always, the /. crowd is just forgetting one thing : computers are just tools.
These tools are used in real life, it is just normal to train kids to at least use them or to get used to them. That should be enough to justify this "laptop" program.
wow, and here I thought I was the only one.. I can't do any work when i'm online, seriously.. I have to either remove myself from the computer, or remove the computer from the internet before I can do any work. Otherwise, i'm always checking out slashdot or conversatron or waiting for my next IM.. instead of studiying and weriting papers and doing real work.. even if it's not for a class, but like a personal coding project.. i have to disconnect myself.
Which sucks, because everything seems to be heading towards the always connected stage.. when I need to disconnect to do something, yet be online to get any sort of help documentation on an API (i.e. MSDN, yea. MS, oh well) or anything like that.. I can't imagine how i'll survive then.
hence the name GaylordFaggot
That is part of the learning process, Repetition.
Not everyone gets it on the first go around and the Repetition serves to ingrain these building blocks into us so we can draw on them when we are thrown into a situation.
Our natural ability to learn is aided by this process. Thats why Parents when teaching their children to speak constantly repeat words. This helps the child progess in learning to form words with his random sound. Sure a kid may learn how to speak eventually without this repetition but how much longer would it take?
Repetition is a basic building block of education.
Ursula Andress, Catherine Deneuve, and Charo, twice...
Parent post is igerunt.
Why use the slide rule? For those who know how, no explanation is needed. For those who don't know how, no explanation is possible.
I noticed that these laptops where supposed to be "donated" from the community to the seventh graders. Oh joy. A bunch of kids with rickety 386's and 486's desperately trying to get them to work all the time. Not to mention the headaches of software licensing costs. How much do you think it is going to cost to make sure that everyone has a liscensed copy of Windows? or Office? Or that you wll even be able to run these on all the computers ? Can *you* imagine trying to make sure that 100 7th graders laptops stay up and running 24/7 and all have exactly identical copys of software (I see win 3.11/dos in their futre). And what happens if they break? Get lost? Stolen? You would have to hire 2-3 people to maintain that many laptops in a school which would further burden the School districts funds which (as has been previously stated) could be used for much better purposes. Good idea fails in the implementation. Let's face it -- you don't need computers for everything.
aren't you in school? what are you doing online?
Laptops for every kid seems like a great idea until you consider how little control kids are likely to have over the laptops given to them. Restrictions such as filtering software installed on every computer is almost a sure bet. Kids who use their free computers for all their schoolwork will get a filtered view of the Internet. A dream come true for many, a sad state of affairs for independence of thought.
"In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
I was born there and although I left for LA when I was 17, it's nice to see acknowledgement of the progressive thinking part of the state as opposed to the backwoods redneck part of the state. ;)
-Wade
"Every day in America, about 25,000 people buy a quarter-inch drill. But nobody in America wants a quarter-inch drill. What they want are holes.
-- Maine Gov. Angus King
skkkoooonnnggggkkk ptui
I live in Owl's Head, Maine, which is where Midcoast Internet Solutions was founded - Midcoast was featured on Slashdot recently for its forward-thinking work on installing wireless in Midcoast Maine.
I was talking about this with my neighbor, a midcoast dialup subscriber, and he told me that the founder of Midcoast did it while he was still in high school.
(I'm looking into getting wireless finally; however there is a hill between me and the transitter so I'm not sure yet I can get the signal).
When you cross the border into Maine you will see a big blue sign that says "Welcome to Maine, the way life should be." And I think it's true.
It's very peaceful here, the people are nice, there seems to be a lot of interest in the arts and music.
I was able to buy my first house here after renting for 15 years in Santa Cruz, California. I'm paying substantially less in mortgage payments to own a 4 bedroom house with a 2 car garage on a bunch of land than I did to rent a cramped 2-bedroom half of a duplex in Santa Cruz.
Of course there is the winter to contend with. And I never imagined the summer would be as hot as it was. The climate is much more even in Santa Cruz. But I found last winter to be tolerable and incredibly beautiful.
I recall reading on my power bill recently that electricity rates had dropped slightly. Take that, California!
-- Could you use my software consulting serv
learning mandrake-linux in school would be useless. bad enough some schools still use macs - you just should not teach kids something that isn't RIGHT NOW a viable desktop solution because the kids will just have to switch back to windows anyway to do anything wortwhile.
and having a laptop in the 7th grade would have been just pointless. just because it's technology doesn't mean jack.
like increasing teacher pay so schools can attract better teachers who then can help educate children better. when looking towards the future as far as a career is concerned, i don't konw of anyone who wants to become a teacher. i had a friend who might have made a great teacher but just didn't want to live in that tax bracket i guess. forget usless technology, computers DO NOT teach children, teachers do.
This really sounds like a bad idea - I'm from the UK so I assume these are 12-14 year old kids getting the laptops.
They don't need them, not one bit. At all. It would be better to get the money to spend on better basic education. I don't know what really they will need the laptops for. It will probably get loaded with porn, games and other crap. The laptops will break with alarming frequency. And it will cost a bomb.
I admit there will be essays to do but these can be done by hand. I don't think word processors / spreadsheets are really needed till the last two years of school when you have to do projects and the like. Waste of money...
And this article claims
n fra] and structure means somehing constructed http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=str ucture....
ISP = Infrastructure service provider...
What the hell is "infrastructure". Let's break it down. infra = inferior [http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=i
"infrastructure" means an inferior design or construction....
Good choice guys....
Just in case you somehow missed the beginning of the 21st century, learning how to use a computer *is* a basic skill these days. Relegating the use of the computer to a 'hobby' is a luxury only those already-established in the job market can afford; an example being the large group of boomers who rail, whine, and moan about the advance of computer technology and how it has no place in their childrens lives simply because it had no place in their own.
It's been my experience that the folks who piss away at computers are either the ones who already 'got theirs' and wish time would just up and stop (i.e., the aforementioned boomers) or the technologically illiterate who can't keep up with their peers and are bitter about it.
I currently work in a school district, and have for the last three years. Sure, there are problems with the school system, serious problems; but blaming these problems on computers ("our kids should be learning the 3 R's", bitch and moan) is the refuge of the simple-minded who pine for simple solutions.
Computer technology and the internet will be an integral part of these kids lives, far more so than any generation previous. Teaching them early, especially the poor who don't have computers or the internet at home, is far better than saying 'screw you, learn it on your own'. Regardless of how it panned out for you, it won't fly for future generations.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Boy, most of the posts I've seen moderated up have been from people out of school for a decade bitching about 486 machines.
n ew/
Get a clue people, and do some Google searches for e-learning, online education, and the like.
Cisco's CCNA courses are probably the best example I have personal experience with; you should check out their education web page. http://cisco.com/warp/public/10/wwtraining/whats_
E-learning is a huge market and a great resource. Online programs utilizing Internet technologies (classes are accessed via a browser) are teaching everything from basic maths and sciences to advanced router configuration and particle physics.
E-learing is in many ways a better solution than teacher led classes:
* Truely individualized teaching is possible.
* Classes are more accessible. If you can't read, the text can be read to you. If you can't hear, it's all available as text.
* There are many innovative uses of multimedia in these online classes. Flash is the most widely used technology for multimedia in online education. Most uses of it for this application have been very, very well done.
Online education is absolutely the future of education IMHO. Do some searching for info on it and I think you will be amazed at what is being done with this incredible application of technology.
obviously no deficiencies vs. no obvious deficiencies
Who the hell modded this down to 0? I despair of the moderation here, I really do...
The problem, in many cases is that teachers that want to use this technology already have a computer, frequently a Powerbook or PC desktop. Giving these teachers a PC laptop either gives them the platform that will be the district standard (in the case of a Powerbook) or gives them a portable PC to shuttle stuff between home and work (high class sneakernet). Either way, you are preaching to the converted. Most of the rest don't want a computer and so don't have one. Giving them one doesn't solve the problem as they don't use them. Some will. Some just needed this little push to see what it's all about and they run with it. Most will ignore it to the best of their ability. We voted a bond to pay for this in Colorado Springs. The teachers were given the laptops at the end of the school year to work with over the summer. Next year, my children commented on how few used them or knew how. Most apparently refused to use them and remained functionally illiterate when it came to using computers. A friend of mine's wife is still a teacher there and has commented on the lack of interest at the teacher level on using technology in the classroom.
One of the most significant issues here is the quality of the educators and the curriculum. Those issues need to be addressed before technology can help. Technology can only assist a quality program, not substitute for the lack of quality in the program. GINGO.
You must be the change you wish to see in the world - Ghandi
Then automating it will just make your students as dumb, faster. Use the computer as a tool and then offer courses in computers for people who want to go that way. For example there are lots more people who can get something out of using Photoshop or Microsoft Project then there are people who can make something out of Java or Python. And since we all pretty much wear aprons and smocks we'd be better off, eating and bill paying-wise, knowing something about Photoshop and MS Project then we would as poor crappy programmers.
Make the computer a tool not an altar.
When I was in college, I did both. I had my laptop for taking text notes (the majority), and pencil and paper for taking down diagrams. I could also save time by downloading the instructors' class notes from their webpages, and only taking down the notes where they added information.
I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
> opening up online discussion allowed a lot of shy, nervous, or whatever people to come out and say their piece to the class in a forum that they were comfortable in
This is all well and good, but some of the best aspects of school are learning to communicate with other people in real life, defend your ideas, and think on your toes!
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
Teachers are IMHO a bunch of whiney, overpaid babysitters who, like most middle management, are scared that the Internet is taking away their advantage as hoarders of knowledge. They mean well and are perhaps even convinced that they are in it for the love of learning, the good of our children, etc. etc. But the truth is, they are part of a top-down industrial model for education. Giving the kids laptops means they will be able to connect directly to a decentralized model of many publishers and many subscribers, making the teacher's present role obsolete.
This doesn't mean we don't need teachers. What it means is that they (and their powerful unions) need to stop whining and get ON with it. Figure out how to be coaches in student-centered learning instead of trying to stay atop their pedestals as dispensers of wisdom. The world has the wisdom, the best they can do is help people filter it in useful ways.