Slashdot Mirror
From Gang Bangers to Web Developers?
evenprime asks: "The Economist is running an article about a program that takes gang members in Milwaukee, sends them through rehab, and
teaches them web development so that they can have a decent paying job. I think this type of program - one that gives people the ability to help themselves - is a great idea, and it is something that many of us could help with. Do slashdot readers know of any similar programs in other places? If so, what type of qualifications do you think they would require before allowing someone to help teach web design?" Such programs are just too damned cool. Are there any others like it?
Aren't we being a little presumptuous here? Kind of like saying all members of that linux gang are hackers...
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
The terms "Web development" and "Decent paying job" are mutually exclusive these days, neh?
They're already used to working with tags :)
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Unfortunately, web design? With the advent of WYSIWYG editors like Dreamweaver and the lot and the decline and fall of startup "civilization", the ability to put together a web page won't get these kids too far (the article doesn't mention anything about programming or administration skills above and beyond simple web design being taught).
Slapping a cheap band-aid on a failing educational system ("The city has a 60% high-school dropout rate") won't fix anything permanently. It's nice that he's helped 72 lost youth find gainful employment, but what of the tens of thousands who haven't receieved aftermarket intervention?
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
Actually, wasn't this how Australia got *it's* start?
If you join a gang, you learn their secret customs.
If you join a web group, you learn their secret locations for web documents
In a gang, you have undying loyality to the leader, without any justification why.
In a web group, you have undying loyality to your particular brand of web server, without any justification why.
In a gang, you are forced to do stupid things, like homemade tattoos.
In a web group, you're forced to use stupid products, like Weblogics.
In a gang, you carry a gun that you use a lot.
In a web group, you carry an ego that you could use to kill someone.
If you leave the gang, they try to kill you.
If you leave the web group, they kill your access.
See, very very similar.
Gonzo Granzeau
"Nothing the god of biomechanics wouldn't let you into heaven for.." -Roy Batty
I think a lot of ex-web developers will be running to Compton, begging the gang-bangers to teach them how to pimp and push crack.
Hmm.. Many are already in the "Pharmaceutical Distribution" industry, so maybe those alternatives are more up their street... :)
Seriously, how many of you have dealt with your local IT guy and not thought that they were previously gang bangers? All you have to do is look at the situation where you have an IT group rather than just one guy, they revert back to their gang mentality. True it is a more nerdy gang and there's more pocket protectors and less Uzis and bandanas, but think about it, they operate like a gang.
Think back to the last time you needed to install a program, you couldn't do it because you don't have "administrative rights." In other words, it's IT's turf, and you can't tread on it. Then you asked the IT guy that was floating around if he could do it, and he said "you need to talk to my administrator." In other words, knuck-knuck can't make those types of decisions, show some respect and go talk to little T-Moe if you want to get the hookup. So you go talk to little T-Moe and you say that it's Mission Critical and you need it ASAP. Well, he says "we have logged your request and we will assist you as soon as we have the resources." In other words, as soon as Big-C is finished with his 40 ounce and box of BBQ Wangs, he'll bounce on over to your cube and computer-jack your workstation for the couple of hours it takes him to install your application. Then you call little T-Moe when the job is done to say thanks, and all he says is "fuhgettaboutit."
This also poses another interesting question: were they gangbangers before or after they graduated from the Devry institute?
Seriously though, this program of troubled youths to web developers is something to watch closely and see how things turn out, if it ends up being positive and these kids really become upstanding citizens then we need to start more similar technology related programs.
But of course if it doesn't work out then this just means there will be a lot more websites that steal your credit card information...
~ now you know
This is not a slur towards anyone or anything, but the bigger problem is that most of these kids can't even read. I was interested in doing this sort of thing a couple of years ago when I was living in LA.
I spoke with someone who was actually did urban education. She came into it wanting to teach urban kids advanced skills and ended up teaching them basic reading and writing skills.
There are alot of skills Slashdotters take for granted that these kids probably don't know. Like reading at a 9th grade level or knowing multiplication tables or how to write a paragraph.
Brian Ellenberger
I think that web development is still a pretty decent entry-level job. While there are not as many new public web sites, most big companies are still investing a lot of time & money in their intranets. Web development is becoming like every other kind of software development -- 90% of it is done for internal company use. That's not going to change anytime soon.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Then-governor of Wisconsin Tommy Thompson (now Secretary of Health and Human Services in the Bush administration) tried something similar with the W2 program in 1996: giving welding training to welfare recipients so they could have decent-paying jobs and get off welfare.
Sounds great, but many of these people, as I understand it, had never worked before, and were fired shortly after being placed because they had no workplace skills that emphasized things like showing up on time or calling in if they were sick. They had welding skills, but there's a lot more that goes into getting someone ready to join the workforce. Specific-skill training seems a temptingly easy solution to transition-to-workforce problems, but it has to be part of a bigger plan if it's going to work.
-- http://frobnosticate.com
Just what the world needs. I get at least one application every day from "web developers" who want to tap into that vast market for web pages out there. Each and every one has done at least one web page. Some have done two or three. They can all use Frontpage but none of them can read their HTML, few have heard of XML, and they all pronounce Linux "lie-nix".
I know a phone tech who wants $36,000 a year cuz he is "really a web developer". He'd be better off learning what DNS means.
I think the answer to poverty is not quick-and-easy training in some buzz-word technology or how to use some piece of software. I think that the groups involved in leadership of minority groups have to take some responsibility for their own community failings and start to drive their kids towards real, thorough (that means "hard work") education.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
And I was just about to join a gang because the job market for web development isn't very promising at the moment.
Why don't they train them for more stable jobs? Like something in healthcare or public service. The technology market is flooded anyway. So these people will recieve this training and have all the "promises" and then they won't be able to find a job much better than food service.
Wouldn't the black market and the drug trade seem to have better pay offs?
It's not specifically technical, but it's a highly successful (well, relative to any Government program) welfare to work program that's privately funded, typically by the companies that hire people.
http://www.strivecentral.com/
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
i was born, raised, and still travel twice a year to milwaukee. believe me, i know what goes on there.
Fortunately, this issue has already been addressed. CmdrTaco has set up a special site that covers many social issues and current events, rather than those that're just "geek-compatible". The site format's substantially different, but it does do what you ask. The site is the Cmdrtaco News Network. Cowboy Neal has also set up a site with additional material: More Stuff -- laeN yoBwoC.
Would you rather your taxes were spent keeping these kids in prison?
Tom.
Oh arse
Take a look at http://www.citysoft.com/. They've been around for a couple of years and do similar things for Boston, NY, and Baltimore. The interesting thing here is that they try and do it for profit, rather than pure charity.
Web development? Are they crazy? These guys might get one decent paying job, but as people wise-up they're going to stop paying web monkeys 2x what they're worth; it's already happening. They'll be even -more- pissed off then!
So now we've got technology savy, pissesd off, gang bangers. They'll be using the web to communicate and organize a revolution against the penal system and all Hell will break loose! Hey, I have an idea, lets give them guns while were at it!
Okay, but seriously... why web development? It's really a dead-end job and dying off at that. Give 'em something better, like *nix system administration or OO programming. At least then I'd look better coming into job interviews.
Maybe you were just joking or maybe you don't know. Either way for those who are completely street illiterate...
Gang Bang - sexual term.
Gang Banger - Active Gang Member.
"[the program] sends them through rehab"
I was just sort of passively taking this in as being a bit stereotypical. Not all gang members need rehab. Being in a gang does not make you a drug user and not all people in gangs have any serious problems.
How many of us would call our own little geek cults gangs? Ever have one of your group wronged by someone then have the group dislike and/or take action against a person? Would you call Masters of Deception (MOD) a gang? There's a few parallels between street gangs and geek cults, so... *shrug*
Why bother.
I call the use of cluster bombs evil.
Find out what happens to the unexploded ordinance. These weapons should never be used, and I'm ashamed my country (UK) is given tacit approval of the US's deploymenmt of them.
Tom.
Oh arse
Yes! Why reward bad behavior in our society? It sends a incredibly bad message to children to reward bad behavior.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Right now most nations spend billions of dollars every year filling prisons with people who sit in cages all day watching television. Those people then get released years later, with no new skills, severely damaged social skills, and no real contacts other than criminals they met in prison.
Imagine if, instead of being locked down all day, the US prison population was educated. Classes all day, homework all night. Give them job skills. Rehabilitate criminals into functional members of society so that when they get out they know how to do something other than be a pain in the ass!
Of course, is most of the world this will never happen, because prison building and maintenance is now an important industry, and rehabilitation of criminals is detrimental to construction companies, their employees, police unions and their members, as well as prison employee unions and their members. Welcome the the twenty-first century, where deprivation of human freedom is a commodity.
I've seen dozens of these stories: retrain prisoner/welfare/vetern/disabled to become IT wizard. The training companies then get big grants from the government. Tech how to use all of MS-Office or program in Visual Basic or hmtl. Late night and day time ads on TV.
I hope it helps. I hope these companies are realistic to students about the saturated market.
Well it depends on your definition of "decent paying job". I think you're confusing "decent paying" and "high paying".
What's a reformed gang banger going to get a legitimate job doing? Suppose he/she has been Livin tha Gangsta Life(TM) since a young age, and maybe doesn't have a solid education beyond, say, elementary or junior high. What options would be available? Fast food? Secretarial work? Telemarketing? Various forms of manual labor? Now, what do jobs like that pay? Minimum wage? $10/hr? $17/hr after 25 years?
Now look at a low paying web job. What do they pay? $35000/yr? $40000/yr? It's decent.
I was a project manager at a company called CitySoft back when it was just 7 employees. It has grown significantly since then. Part of the growth was due to limited initial funding, we had to grow organically from new business. More recently, infusions of modest amounts of VC (some from the like of Esther Dyson and others) have allowed expansion from the initial Cambridge/Boston location to NYC and Baltimore.
My experience there was on the whole a very positive one. We were successful at finding talented youth from inner-city Boston and getting them trained in basic web development tools and techniques. At the time this was Front Page and Photoshop. While I protested FP somewhat initially, I came to realize that the almost immediate ability to contribute the the company's work that FP allowed was more valuable than FP's notable drawbacks. Part of my role as a PM was in some respects to filter out some of those issues. Towards the end of my time there we began using Allaire's Cold Fusion, and I suspect that the developers probably get some training in that now.
As with any operation like this, there were some problems. For most developers, this was their first experience of gainful employment in their lives. The friction between their new 9-5 lifestyle and their situations at home caused difficulties, as did the fact that old habits die hard--frankly, some of these kids had never been required to perform diligently and consistantly in their lives. The coat and tie dress code was another area of complaint (and not just with the developers I managed). In essence though, that was the real challenge of the company: changing the outlook of these kids from one of entitlement to one of empowerment. While most normal businesses don't need to confront these social aspects of employment so acutely, CitySoft's mission and hiring policy required it. Nick Gleason, the CEO, had done a good deal of homework on how to attack these issues, and had some solid ideas that he brought into practice.
In hindsight, I was lucky to be a part of such an organization. The fact that the company seems to have lived through the
--cleetus
(The also do darn fine web development work too. It's well worth giving them a shot.)
He had some limited computer skills, but his probation restrictions only allow him to be a gang member, or an actor. Kinda the same deal eh?
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
The point here is empower these kids with some skill that will provide a return to the community. Were not talking about creating websites for GE starting a dotcom here. learning web development opens pretty much the whole realm of IT to people. How mnay of you learned programming, troubleshooting and a host of other skills just creating a simple HTML wep page.
/. for more than a year now I have rarely seen any social issues that touch on race. Well this topic has certainly uncovered the vast amount of racial ignorance on this board.
From reading
.... is "So now the porn stars ar emaking their own websites?"
I can't be alone here
Great - now I'll have to put up with co-workers that say stuff like: "Shit bizatch, that muther-fuckin' Linux be phat!" ;-)
Rehabilitation would involve restitution for previous actions. None of these sort of programs require the individual to provide such an action. These program exist so rich people can tell other people at award shows and banquets that "They Care!". And isn't that the most important thing?
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
..Microsoft Sales Rep? I don't think they would need too much training.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
TROSA stands for Triangle Rehabilitation Options for Substance Abusers and is a fabulous model of how drug rehab programs can work. Founded around 1995, they're based in the Research Triangle area of NC, and currently have over 300 participants in their residential program.
Here's the idea. Participants, after qualifying for the program, live on site, dorm-style, for the 2-2.5 years that they are in the program. Discipline and scheduling are tight (not much idle time for them to fall back into old habits) and contact with old friends and family are limited. During their time in program, they learn trades by working in the 7 different businesses that TROSA runs.
TROSA gets only a small portion of its funding from governmental sources. The majority of its funding is raised by running businesses owned and operated by TROSA: masonry, moving company, laundry, painting, catering, landscaping, and others. While the participants work, their "salary" goes into a savings account that is given to the participant upon his/her graduation from the program, along with a car, a shared apartment, and job placement services. This way, not only are the participants rehabilitated, but they're actually given a head-start on their new life!
Having volunteered with TROSA in the past, and having seen the enormous progress made in their 6 years of operation, I'm convinced this is a worthwhile model for other programs to follow and that job skills training needs to be a part of any program that seeks to help people get on with their new lives so they don't lapse into recidivism.
have to worry about a 2Pac wannabe having a PCP induced flashback and bustin' a cap in my ass!
I'd rather have an ex gang member in the next cube than pushing crack on the streets.
Reboot macht Frei.
It depends on just how much of their past an employer can know. If they haven't been convicted at the time they enter the program, then there's no record that they have to own up to. Granted there's a lot they may have done prior to getting into the program, but outside the street who knows? In any case, ex-cons who do have solid skills are able to land and keep jobs especially if they have good references from their trainers, and a placement program backing them. And that's what this program gives them: skills, experience, references.
In terms of this economy, what I've seen is that people with solid IT skills seem to be able to keep their jobs or find new ones. The first to feel the downturns are alwasys the people with few skills, and let's face it, a lot of the people swept in the tech boom had very questionable tech skills. Now, in terms of turning around once you've gone, evil, I'd like to ask the question: Are these kids really evil? A lot of people who come down hard on kids in gangs have never been in area that has gangs. In a lot of cases, the gang is the only real family that these kids have. Not to defend them, but gangs provide a lot of the support and mentoring that all kids are instinctively looking for. And that's a real serious problem because gangs are criminal and violent organizations. A kid who's got a good family and connections that lead him--or her--into legitimate social insitutions generally does not turn to the gang. These connections might be a network of friends, a church, or some other kind of outreach, but when they aren't there, a kid reaches out for what's around, or at least gets scooped up by it. So, is a kid evil for not having a better choice? I guess this all goes back to the old question of whether virtue is inherent or learned. If virtue is inherent, then good kids will not join gangs and will do okay no matter where they start life. If virtue is learned, then what do you expect when there is no institution to teach a kid virue? Seems to me that this is what Brother Holub is trying to do.
After all, it worked for accountants.
-- "Complacency is a far more dangerous attitude than outrage." -Naomi Littlebear
"Hey kids, go ahead and sell drugs, shoot at your rivals and operate in a criminal conspiracy because after you are all done, we will forgive you and train you for a career!" Um, no. What we need to be saying is, "Hey kids, if you go ahead and sell drugs, shoot at your rivals and operate in a criminal conspiracy, we will catch you, prosecute you, leave you to rot in jail for a few years and after you get out you will have no prospects for a decent life. So don't do it nor will we reward you for doing it!"
There is a big difference between "screwing up" and engaging in a criminal conspiracy that breeds fear in your neighbors.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Do slashdot readers know of any similar programs in other places?
We have a similar program here. I believe its called MCSE. Basically people with NO tech skill whatsoever can finish the course in a few weeks - and are then qualified for a variety of jobs such as:
- Win2000 administrator
- Senior level IIS developer, microsoft
- Cable monkey
- Solitaire player
- Dancing girl for Steve Ballmer
Hell, fwiw, even Racine has gang problems. I remember my Grandma complaining about gangs in central OH.
Don't go dismissing shit you know nothing about. At least somebody, somewhere is doing something.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
It states in the article that the kids have the option of being programmers or being helped into colleges and other programs. Any intercity program that helps lower the crime rate, murder rate, gang membership is a good thing. Helping kids help themselves into being an asset to society instead of a number in a prison is not something to take lightly.
Everyone at some point in their life had some sort of influence that helped them along. Be it advice from a teacher, some news story or article, parent, or friend it got you where you are today. I see nothing wrong with giving these kids a different path to follow. In the end it will be up to the kid. If he/she stays the course and changes their life or fails. I'm just glad that someone is trying to help.
Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
I would prefer them in JAIL and not on the streets to make some NPR listener feel less guilty.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Here in Seattle, I've worked with a similar program. This one is kind of a 'last chance' for highschoolers who are one step away from dropping out completely. These kids are chronic troublemakers/truants who've been booted from both regular highschool AND secondary school. Most of them are gangmembers, and several are teen mothers.
What make this interesting is that the program pays these kids to come to school and learn technology. Every day, most of them show up to learn the basics of computers, web design, etc in the hopes that it'll help them get on the right track with a good job.
For my part, I volunteered with a friend to give workshops on how to use Macromedia Flash. I was kinda nervous and didn't know what to expect--I just had this stereotype of rough gangbanger teenagers. However, they were very polite and for the most part completely intent on learning. In addition, nearly ALL of them were very bright and picked up flash far quicker than I ever did!
Programs like the one in the posted article and the one I worked for here in Seattle are amazing opportunities to help people who just havent had the breaks in life, but have a ton to contribute. I would love to see them expanded.
-s
- - - - - - - -
Don't worry, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep in a giant blender.
Comedian Bobcat GOlthwaite said such criminals like gang bangers should be working in the Army, citing "These are the ones with experience!". "I'd rather have Manson out there fighting for our country than some kid who couldn't get a job at burger king"
I would prefer them in JAIL
Then you can pay for their upkeep and training in further criminal activity. Bravo!
Reboot macht Frei.
Sitting in jail is much cheaper than them out on the streets causing death, property damage and theft. If it costs $30,000 a year to keep a thug in jail, its still a hell of a lot cheaper than loosing a human life. There is a huge benefit to society, financially, to keep thugs in jail.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Yo, luser, imma 404 yo bitchX, when I kill niggas I kill -9 'em.
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
Oh, I'm sure they have (or perhaps had) good salaries. That's where that $10 trillion of capital went.
you just can't get away with being crap any more
Merely teaching everyone to clean up their HTML isn't going to bring that $10 trillion bubble back.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
I'd rather the government didn't take the money in taxes in the first place, and then let me contribute personally to projects like this that I could support (and not support things that I think are a waste of money).
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
God, I just love jingoistic comments!
Sitting in jail is much cheaper than having them out on the streets causing death, property damage and theft. If it costs $30,000 a year to keep a thug in jail, its still a hell of a lot cheaper than loosing a human life. There is a huge benefit to society, financially, to keep thugs in jail. The longer the better.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
If they haven't done something wrong (and do we still assume that someone's innocent until proven guilty?), why not help them get themselves out of their current crappy situation. That's what I'm saying when Iask if you'd rather see them in pison. Here we have a potential solution to kids being criminals, perhaps?
Tom.
Oh arse
I see. Hmmm, should I take out a student loan to attend Penn State, or should I sell crack in front of the police station so that I can get my free degree from the state penn?
Why should criminals get their education paid for by taxpayers while honest folks have to pay for their own education? Why stop with web development? Why not expand that to things like aeronautical engineering?
Want to teach them something? Teach them how to sweep litter off the sidewalks or pick up roadkill from the streets. Leave web development to those who have some software development skills. After all, not everything can simply be whipped up in FontPage.
Have you read the article? No.
Have you an ounce of charity in your body? No.
Tom.
Oh arse
wouldn't it be better to make them Exchange/Outlook Admins?
Seriously! It is not dissimilar to punishment to administer that crap and then people who know what they're doing won't have to touch it!
This
Imagine if, instead of being locked down all day, the US prison population was educated. Classes all day, homework all night. Give them job skills. Rehabilitate criminals into functional members of society so that when they get out they know how to do something other than be a pain in the ass!
You are assuming that most criminals *want* to be something other than a pain in the ass.
Some will, certainly.
Many won't.
Problems occur when, as happens every few decades, someone has the bright idea that *all* prisoners should just be "rehabilitated", and then sent out into the world as productive, honest members of society.
Any real scheme should take into account the fact that a large number of people in prison are truly criminal - inclined to committing crimes - and will continue to do so. Help the ones who are interested in being helped, but don't assume they all will be.
The primary purpose of prison, IMO, should be neither punative nor rehabilitative - it should be to keep the prisoners from further harming the rest of society.
Go on, look it up on google... maybe it means something different in the USA to what it means here, but I thought it was funny... :)
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
I don't have a problem with helping kids that follow the rules. My problem is that we tend to focus on the bad eggs before the good eggs with a lousy situation in life. We never hear about programs for inner city youth that are not involved in gangs or some sort of criminal activity. Whether we like the idea or not, giving benefits to ex-cons (or whatever you want to call them) sends a message out to their peers that criminal actions are being rewarded. The worst message a society can send.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
What about theft and property damage thats pretty thug like to me? Those are expensive activities to the victims. Petty theft is not so petty to the victim since a lot of their victims are the poor. Also, the $7,500 does not prevent them from commiting crimes, spending the $30,000 to surround with them with iron bars will.
It doesn't take a rocket scientists to know the difference between right and wrong. And its too bad that society acts like it does require that level of intelligence. There is no excuse for thuglike behavior nor should there be a reward.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
I'd rather my taxes be spent educating the law abiding citizens before we spend it educating the criminals.
And whoever moderated the grandparent (of this) post as "Troll" is going to get meta-moderated as "unfair".
The worst message you can send to the thousands and thousands of kids who are making at this point relatively small mistakes is that they've crossed the line, they are irredeemable, and society doesn't give a fuck about them. Your attitude turns a one-time minor offender into a career criminal.
One day, it's illegal extortion and con artistry (the Pigeon Drop, the Boston wad, etc)... after jail, it's legal extortion and con artistry (Venture Capital, hey,there, these shares'll be worth $500 each in a year! Buy now! Why did I sell all mine the first day? Uh....)
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
Honest livings can be had in contruction, washing dishes, taking out garbage and what not that requires little trust. This is what criminals should end up doing. If they want to do more, and pay for it, good for them and good luck. Trade organizations realize this. You can't get so much as a plumber's liscense if you have a criminal record, and that's the way it should remain.
The damage to the IT proffesion's reputation is secondary to the real harm well trained criminals can do. Yes, dishonest people can and do aquire skills. Every learning institution and every proffesional organization tries to exclude the dishonest, but nothing's perfect. Programs like this start out with the dishonest and train them up. There is a much greater probability of these people doing harm with their knowledge because you have selected the worst of all people to start out. Gangs trained by police departments in Los Angeles have a record of being nothing but stronger for the effort.
This is very backward thinking in a country that will keep "hackers" away from computers forever.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Here are the facts on punishment and deterrence:
"Does Punishment Deter?"
http://www.ncpa.org/bg/bg148.html
Unlike you, I don't want to send the message of "Its ok to be in gang because we will bail you out when the going gets ruff." I want to send this message to kids, "Don't be a gang member or the rest of your life will be spent in self-imposed misery."
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
For starters, I am an employee at Homeboyz Interactive, the company reported in the article.
;)
Just wanted to clarify a few things. The students who go through the program are not simply taught how to launch Dreamweaver and click their way to a Web site. They go through about nine months of training ranging from HTML, to JavaScript, PHP, databases, data modeling, use cases, etc. We provide more skills to these students than most of my university peers seem to have! We are just starting to use Java to deal with some of our larger projects where PHP becomes a burden.
Think again if you're worried that this is just another basic class in WYSIWYG HTML editors... you are very wrong
Now that was funny! Thanks for pointing out his link to what he calls, "Web Development". Muhahaha! The products and services page was too much! I think the homeboyz could have done a better job.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
I envision east coast/west coast style Emacs/Vi battles.
I can almost hear the Script Kiddies... no, Script Playah's saying: "Word, yo! Emacs be tha muthafuckin gleem bling bling! i get all up on that, and then I be rollin on my 20s wit my posse bringin up tha linux rear, word! Where the cristal at?"
Then you know nothing about the realities of gang membership, and the demographics involved, and how tied up they are with family and community relationships. They have felonized gang membership, but that legal detail is irrelevant to the day to day lives of the people in the gangs.
Somehow, I don't think sending messages to kids is something you're really well-educated about.
Because those who engage in bad behavior tend to do it again and again if nothing changes. A program like this could hopefully alleviate some of that recidivism. You commonly hear that kids go into the criminal life because dealing drugs pays way better than McDonalds: well, being a programmer pays pretty well too, it's much more conducive to self-respect than flipping burgers, and there's less chance of getting shot on the job.
I for one would much rather that a convicted drug dealer did a smaller amount of time, got job training, and committed fewer crimes as a result of building a good life. I realize this doesn't satisfy the desire many people have for vengeance, but personally I'm more concerned with trying to reduce crime than making sure everyone gets their ass kicked as solidly as possible. I guess that makes me a bleeding heart.
And in any case I don't get the impression that good kids are excluded from such a program, just that bad kids aren't either.
-brennan
Frankly, I couldn't give a squat about excuses for their criminal behavior. It doesn't matter. What matters is that society is protected from their criminal behavior and making sure that behavior is not glorified to other children. To me, telling a kid that gang banging is a bad idea and will lead to a life of misery is an excellent message to send to children.
You might have had a point but your personal insults have made sure it was lost...
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Right now most nations spend billions of dollars every year filling prisons with people who sit in cages all day watching television.
Most nations? I don't think too many inmates in Turkish prisons have basic cable, same for the other countries who run their justice systems the proper way-- by punishing their criminals instead of coddling them in some nice warm jail with plenty of food and TVs. Yeah, prisoners in the U.S. sure learn their lesson by having the state take care of them, and all they do is work in the prison laundry or something a few hours a day.
Imagine if, instead of being locked down all day, the US prison population was educated.
Imagine if, instead of being locked down all day, the US prison population (or at least the 1st -degree murderers and habitual felons) was executed. Then my tax dollars might go towards more worthwhile things than feeding, clothing and housing this subhuman trash, like maybe helping the families of their victims.
And none of this 'humane' execution nonsense. Use a wood chipper. Murderers dropped in head-first, and rapists and child molesters lowered in, slowly, feet-first.
~Philly
My point for your remedial reading, can't pass the SRA, misinterpreting, reactionary dumb ass is even though Milwaukee isn't a city the size of say LA or has the same magnitude of gang issues like Chicago it does not mitigate the fact that Milwaukee has serious gang problems of its own which needs to be addressed. And considering that when these problems flare up you get small children dying because of it I could care less that if I go to NY I would see gangs which are 10 times worse or truly "hardcore."
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
I'm doing web development . . . she thinks I'm still a Crip.
Someone you trust is one of us.
Then I'd get my ass arrested to get a free education. Seriously. Why struggle to work while going to school, so you can pay the bills, when you could sit in jail for free and get a free education?
MadCow
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
they had no workplace skills that emphasized things like showing up on time or calling in if they were sick.
Funny. Certainly I am not the first to notice that Industrial-Age schools and Industrial-Age prisons are very similar to factories in terms of set times and hierarchy.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Prison systems should offer some education. Many do right now. The ones in my state all have GED programs and thats a good start. I do think community college level stuff should certainly be offerred in prison, more so than now. The public already pays for that. I think motivation is very important for prisoners. If sentences routinely included educational components (no B&E can be released until they can read) or if education counted towards good behavior that would help. I don't think the fact that many prisoners simply have to be punished and warehoused can be ignored either though.
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
Why shouldn't higher education be a right just as K-12 education? You can't get a very good job with just a K-12 education anymore. Everyone knows this. So why don't we extend education for the extra 4 years? Why should it be limited to those who already have the means to pay for it? Seems like it's those who don't have the means that need it the most. As for educating people in prison, I'm all for it. I can't think of any reason why we shouldn't do what we can to make sure that the people coming out of prison are equipped to do something with their lives besides commit more crimes.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Thats a good idea, just make the classes video based/cbts and those who don't want to learn, fine. But those who pass the exams get out sooner and can get a job.
hmm... for fun I enjoy launching DDoS attacks against 127.87.42.5
"Want to teach them something? Teach them how to sweep litter off the sidewalks or pick up roadkill from the streets. Leave web development to those who have some software development skills. After all, not everything can simply be whipped up in FontPage."
That mindset is exactly the problem with criminal rehabilitation. Do criminals deserve to be repaid with kindness for their actions? No. Does treating them like subhuman scum do us any good in the long run? No.
If we are going to spend a fortune incarcerating people for long periods of time, we might as well make sure that they can be worthwhile members of society when they come out. It beats the hell out of them returning to life with the rest of us, angry and useless. I would rather a criminal leave prison with with useful skills and social graces than to have him leave prison and kill someone a few months later because he still does not know how to exist in a civilized society.
Seems like you've set up a nice straw man here, but let's try to get back to the original idea at hand. People go to prison when they commit a crime. They don't stay there forever usually. They are eventually released. Now, as it stands, they spend their time in prison learning new criminal tricks and probably developing some pretty bad psychological problems. So, what happens when they are released? Well, they are even worse off than when they went in. They have no new (legal) skills. They can't get a decent job. They are by all means second-class citizens. What's the likely outcome? They turn back to crime since they have no future.
The proposed alternative here is that we provide them with education so that they will have an alternative to crime when they are released. Nobody is saying that all criminals can or will be rehabilitated. But there are large numbers of criminals incarcerated for relatively minor crimes. They'll probably be in for 5 years or less. That's a lot of time that could be used in a productive way. We don't know what the success rate would be for such a program, but I think it's worth trying, simply because the possibility of improving society is worth the very little risk that such a program entails.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Marquette College Engineering Departmen
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Oh and you asked who would hire someone from that background:
So it is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. Please research before you knock.
Oh and will you give me a list of your clients?
This is exactly the problem with academia. Arrogant fucks like you that think they have the right to hold back the world's precious knowledge, sharing it with only those they think worthy, continuing a depraved classed society that continues to reject what may be some of its greatest assests because they do not fit in. Imagine if Sagan or Hakwing had been born a poor black man who did poorly on standardized tests. Their gifts could be lost, because the academia refuses to stop believing that they are somehow better than those without.
I can tell you right now why we shouldn't spend money on educating in prison.
Because a lot of people who deserve and desire to go to higher education can't. Lets spend money getting those people into college before getting bubba and his girlfriend into Web Design 101.
And yes, I am bitter because this hits very close to home. Student aid, loans, scholarships are bunk. If a prison gets free education, I'll be rioting if I have to pay a tuition check. Even though I'm out of college now, my girlfriend is getting ready to enroll -- she makes just above minimum wage working with the handicapped because she loves her job. She deserves to go to school, which is something she desperately wants to do, and can't because she doesn't have the means.
Most prisoners already have a career. Hours are great, benefits suck though.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
You have absolutely no clue what US prisons are like, do you? I happen to know people that work in prisons, and one of my brother's friends happens to be in prison right now. It's a twisted, fucked up, sick place to be. You try to make it sound like the lap of luxury.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Forget college, just join a gang, learn web design for free, and then start making mucho dinero without the hassles of a student loan, or 4 years of college... Sounds good...
I figured you were joking. But, you never know there might be a few "nerds" still actually reading slashdot who don't have a clue ;).
I got an idea...
Instead of spending *even more money* on our prison population turning a trip to the cooler into a semi-vaction where society's thugs and hoodlums can hang out, pump iron, and chill with their friends, we make them work for their food and take away their TV.
After a long, back-breaking day in the fields growing their corn and beans, if they want entertainment, we can set up a lending program with the nearest library (since we're paying for the library anyway).
I'm quite curious where this idea of "rehabilitation" comes from, when the entire point of prison is to punish criminals and keep them segragated from society.
If recidivism is your worry, we can cure it. Chop the hands off thieves and castrate sexual predators. How's that?
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Actually New York doesn't really have the same gang problems most other large cities have.
Oh come on! They aren't gonna be sending them to Harvard! They'll get an education similar to what you would get at a community college. As for the fairness of it, I don't see the problem. We suffer as a society due to crime. If we can reduce the crime rate by teaching criminals to do something worthwhile with their lives, then it helps us all. Whining about the fairness of it seems really petty and childish.
Some people choose to go to school, some people decide to do drugs and be a thug.
I don't think you can simplify it like that. There are extremely complex reasons why people commit crimes. Sure, there is a point where they actually decide to do something illegal, but there is usually a long list of circumstances that lead up to that point and have a huge influence on the decision. Before you flip out and start pounding out a reply, hear me out. I'm not trying to excuse criminals for their actions. I'm not saying they shouldn't go to prison for it. I'm saying that life isn't fair and some people get a big head start and others start with their feet shackled. But we're all expected to live together and not break the law. The least we can do is try to keep people that screw up somehow from spiralling downward in a way that means they'll never be anything but a burden to society.
And if you think people that murder and rape others can come out of prison rehabilitiated, then I just hope they move into your neighborhood rather than mine.
I don't think anyone was saying that every criminal should be rehabilitated and released. I'm sure that many will still spend their entire life in prison. But there are many others that will be released at some point. Some after only a couple of years. We should allow them to do something productive with their time so that they will have a viable alternative to crime. I think that the benefits to society of such a program outweigh the drawbacks.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
And you are completely wrong. You might wish to take a pass at reading the article before posting. From the article:The things to note here are many:
1.) Drug treatment is available to anybody, for free.
2.) Note the distinct lack of the word "criminal" anywhere. That's because he isn't targeting criminals.
3.) Getting a full-time job on your own plus six months of studying for (essentially) a GED doesn't sound like much of a free ride, now does it?
4.) Those who don't become programmers get helped to find community college or job programs, both of which are, again, free and available for everybody.
Now, next time you go spouting off (or responding to someone spouting off) you should at least be informed. These people aren't getting anything that anyone else can't get, they're not getting a free ride, and they're learning a valuable skill that will likely prevent them from becoming either criminals or corpses. So quit your bitching about the unfairness of it all.
Virg
> People change, yeah, and some kids in gangs are just confused and
> need a chance, but I know too many uneducated, good hearted people who
> bust their asses at a minimum wage job every day to try and pay the bills
> and feed their families to fully get behind giving criminals the
> opportunity that some law-abiding Americans won't get.
Is it really so hard to read the damn article? Where did it mention "criminals"? Where did anyone say he's recruiting from prisons? The answer is that it doesn't.
Read the article.
READ THE ARTICLE.
READ THE ARTICLE.
Then, comment on the article.
Virg
Actually, television is becoming common in prisons all over the world as a tool to control inmate behavior. Television quickly becomes an inmates only timely connection to the outside world, and many are happy to just shut up and stare at the screen all day. When a prisoner does act out, the television is taken away, severing the prisoner's link with the rest of humanity. This technique is cheap and effective, and is a much easier way to control prisoners than violence, or throwing them into the proverbial "hole."
I didn't make personal insults, I made observations. That you have demonstrated no knowledge of pedagogy, or the realities of the communities at hand. And even if I had included an insult, it would not have occluded my point, since my point relies on the reality of the situation and not a popularity contest with you as the personal judge.
I think there's three possible reasons:
- The US just has higher standards -- other nations are willing to put up with more crime and disorder
- We unfairly criminalize harmless people, and/or have unfairly long sentences
- We have a disfunctional society that creates a disproportionate number of criminals
1 is the only positive reason -- but of course it's also absurd. Both 2 and 3 seem more likely to me.If the prisoners don't deserve to be in prison (or at least not for as long as they are put there), then they do deserve an education. It's the least we can do for them, even if it doesn't make up for the injustice done on them.
If the prisoners are products of society, then we (as a society) would be well served to try to reform them, simply because it is incredibly expensive to keep someone in jail and because even in jail they will often cause instability in society -- prisoners will often still have friends, family, and children whose lives are disrupted.
I can't help but feel how absurd so many people are being because they're subscribing to stereotypes it's just plain dumb. First of all, I have to question the validity of any argument based on a stereotype (the smae one, mind you that's got computer geeks pegged as lame, pocket protector, acne'd, fat, Lara Croft loving wimps) and moreso, I question the validity of anyon'es intelligence for believing it enough to write messages. Do they know how ignorant they sound?
> But what translates to Cowboy Neal?
why, "Mofo" = CowboyNeal, of course!
Virg
However, I don't think you should blame the prisoners for this. They most certainly did not choose to go to jail. Someone else chose it for them.
You could argue that they implicitly chose it for themselves when they committed the crime. But when you consider that most of them are there for nonviolent crimes, at some point we should consider why the law is criminalizing so many people. Any one person may be responsible for their actions, but when you look at the larger picture we are all responsible -- it is our society, we made it, and we as a society should do something about it. Almost no one seems to be willing to do that, though... mostly they just whine and find scape-goats.
The most offensive form of this is people who would have children tried and convicted as adults -- an action that is both absurd and so immoral as to be unforgivable. But that's another issue.
Why would you assume that "Gang-banger-ese" means Ebonics? And "evil children"? So, not only must gang bangers be black, but the people he recruits must be criminals (gee, the article never mentions the word "criminal") and they're all evil as well.
You've got a lot of nerve talking about bigotry. And "bigotous"?!? You've got a lot of nerve talking about English as well.
As least I can guess at why you're single.
Virg
I remember very well a little event in elementary school that changed my life forever. I had grown up in private school until grade 4, but eventually I guess it was getting too expensive and I was sent into the wild world of public school for the first time starting during the fifth grade. Now, since, until this time, I was always taught to try hard, be good, and be the best person I could be, you can imagine the little hell that I found myself in that year...
Anyway, I slowly learned the ropes, but I was still what one might call a "good kid". I didn't chew gum or talk or pass notes, instead I just tried my best to learn and not be a trouble maker. There were two girls who sat next to me, however, who were definitly not "good kids", at least by the elementary school rules of a decade or two ago. They were always laughing and talking and telling jokes, despite the teacher's constant warnings and threats to "put thier names in the book".
Anyway, this went on for a while, and eventually the teacher had a brilliant idea. She decided that for every day that these two girls did NOT talk, they would get a coupon. If they collected a certian number of coupons at the end of two weeks, they could have a pizza party with some of thier friends after school.
Now, for all of you thinking that this novel approach was the way to go, you are sadly mistaken. The next effect of this was that:
a) the girls didn't shift any more towards the "good" side, but instead found better ways of concealing themselves so that they could get the coupons.
and, most importantly, b) I learned that being "good" got you absolutely nothing at all. I was completely ignored bu this teacher. Being bad, however, gets you pizza. From that moment on I was an encouragable student...
If you are going to start giving perks away to those who are bad, you will only be teaching people that there is no reason to stay out of trouble. If you want to go around handing out web training, start with the people who DESERVE it first.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
And would what we consider "decent pay" be "decent" to some gang kid whose been making a thousand a day as a runner for the local corner patrol?
Factor in the fact that he's a lot less likely to get killed or arrested, and it might start looking better. Not to mention the fact that I don't think low-level dealers make that kind of cash. My step-brother used to deal, and he didn't make anywhere near that much (though when you're 15, it seems like a lot). You have to be higher up on the food chain.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
> but I don't think there should be an inherent reward for committing crimes.
I'll keep saying it until you all get it. Read the article. There's no mention of "criminal" anywhere. This guy doesn't recruit from prison. They're recruiting off the streets. The fact that they remind you of homeless people in Portland only indicates that you don't comprehend what you read very well. Unwed mothers can get the same break that these kids do if they (according to the article):
1.) Get drug rehab if needed.
2.) Get a job on their own and study for a GED for six months.
3.) Decide to be a web designer.
If you want to spend your time teaching unwed mothers important job skills, more power to you. Just bone up on your reading comprehension skills, and start volunteering. But don't badmouth this guy because he's doing what he feels is right to help his community and you think he's targeting the wrong group.
Virg
Well, it's "pasta" and "antipasto", so there's no worries, mate.
Virg
At the Fund for the City of New York, we train quite a few at risk youth, both in rebuilding computers, HTML/graphics, and building useful sites.
I've seen a lot of cynicism and joking on these posts, but what these kids get is empowerment.
No, they will probably not become overpaid web lackeys. But this might be the first legitimate skill on a resume.
Most kids who get involved in gangs do so because of economic desperation and a failed public school system. They understand the risks of their careers far better than any of us, and the majority of them will leave a life of crime if something better comes along.
If you came from some neighborhoods in Northern Manhattan, where our students come from, you would actually get some sense that learning HTML would provide an enormous sense of accomplishment. Which for people with an 8th grade education, it is.
lambda = h/p
I guess I'm moving to Milwaukee then, because they sure as hell aren't hiring experience monkeys here in Manhattan.
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
> tons of money on training, certifications and years of effort only to end
> up having a "reformed" cold blooded murder/drug dealer/gang banger, that was
> set up and funded by our tax dollars through some government subsidized
> program, sitting in the cubicle right next you because your company wants
> to snag a tax break.
Maybe you got a job as a web designer because you can't comprehend what you read. Now, Where are the terms,
""reformed" cold blooded murder/drug dealer/gang banger"
"funded by our tax dollars"
or "government subsidized program"?
Can't find them? Neither could I. They're not convicted criminals, they're not being trained on tax dollars, and it's not government subsidized. From the article:And,HBI Consulting pays the training tab. Now, don't you feel a bit foolish?
> Instead of studying, taking a second job and busting my rear end tracking
> down alternative education funding, I should broken every law in the
> book -- sold drugs, shot people and operated in a criminal conspiracy. I
> would have less debt, gotten more tail and a free education in the
> same career I have today.
Perhaps, but not from this program. Again, from the article:Now let's see:
1.) Drug rehab programs are available for anyone, for free.
2.) Getting a job on your own and studying for a GED for six months doesn't seem like a free ride to me.
3.) Community college and job-placement schemes are also available to anybody, for free.
4.) He doesn't recruit from prisons, and isn't seeking reformed criminals.
Sorry, but your statement doesn't make any sense here.
> God, I am such an idiot.
You said it. I only backed it up.
> And to the question of, "Well, what you have them do?", the answer would be, "Sit in jail."
They weren't in jail in the first place. This program is to keep them from ending up there.
I'll say it again.
Read the article. Read the article. Read the article! Then you might be able to comment on the program intelligently.
Virg
I couldn't afford college either. Unfortunately, I didn't qualify for loans for some reason either (Later I found out that I was apparently a bit too honest when filling out the forms. This was explained to me by a relative that works for a big college and deals with that sort of thing every day. Hint: don't fill in anything that isn't mandatory). I've had a job since I turned 16. Usually manual labor type jobs, at least until I was about 21. Then I had managed to save up enough for a semester of community college. I took classes at night and worked during the day. I'm still taking night classes (though I've had to skip a couple semesters), and someday I might even manage to finish my degree. I finally managed to get in on the bottom floor of a good (consulting) company (as a temp at first). Eventually I got hired on and I'm trying to build up my skills so I can keep advancing towards the job I want. The company pays my tuition now.
I really wish that I had been able to go right into college full-time after high-school. I think that given the importance of college today, it should be available to everyone, regardless of whether they happen to make it through the mess of the loan/grant system. If we want to keep progressing as a country, we really need a better education system. I happen to think that the current system sucks and isn't really helping to prepare kids for the world they will face when they get out of school. They memorize a bunch of crap for tests, but they don't really understand how to apply it in the real world. From what I understand, there have been studies that show that the methods used to drill these facts into kids for the tests don't have much success in creating lasting memory. They take the test and forget much of what they memorized after that since it isn't linked to anything else in their mind. I'm more of a believer in teaching kids to learn rather than the current method of "teaching to the test." I hope that America wakes up to the need for better education and begins to demand it.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Most prisoners already have a career.
What do you know about prisoners? How many do you talk to regularly? I'll tell you right now that many of them wouldn't be where they are if it weren't for the fact that they came from dirt poor families and lived in places that are as dangerous as some 3rd-world countries. You learn a whole different view of life when your own life is constantly in danger.
I know I wouldn't have been able to learn much if I had to go to a school where I was afraid of being attacked and possibly killed (the high schools I went to were bad enough for me, I can't even imagine what would have happened if I'd gone to a "bad" school.) There are a lot of problems that we don't address in this country. There are a lot of kids that don't really get a chance. A lot of them end up in prison. I think they at least deserve a real second chance. Just tossing them back on the street when they get out isn't even a chance.
As for whether it's fair or not, I think you're right. It's not fair. But neither is the fact that some people are born rich and others are born with nothing. Life isn't fair. This program could help some people out that had even less of a chance than most. That said, I agree that we need to do more for everyone as far as education is concerned. Education should be the foundation of this country, but instead it's just another thing for politicians to squabble over when election time rolls around. It's pathetic. The whole standardized testing crap pisses me off too. It's not teaching kids anything! They memorize crap and then forget it all after the test. They never actually had to use the information for anything, so it doesn't stick with them. I could go on and on about this, but I think you get the point. There are a lot of things we need to do for education, offering it to prisoners is just one of them, but I happen to think it's an important one. Perhaps if such a thing does come to pass, we could then use it as a lever to get more funding and common sense injected into education for everyone.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Probably a lot more than one would think, or realize. More than I would really want to. Out of all the people I know that are convicts I'd say less than 10% of them had the desire to get their life back - and most of them have accomplished it without free education. The one that I know that hasn't is not mentally capable (not sure what happpened, he won't talk about it but brain damage cause during his prison stay)
I'm not talking about kids either, and in the original thread it was about prisoners - not just children prisoners. I fully advocate a vocational education system for juvenile prisoners. Most 25 year old 3rd time offenders arent going to give a rats ass if he knows HTML or not.
If, people who are dirt poor had a good chance to go to college without committing a felony to get there - this discussion becomes moot. That is why I am for free-education, and against prison-based free-education. Worry about upstanding or at least non-felon citizens first.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
> Why struggle to work while going to school, so you can pay the bills, when you could sit in jail for free and get a free education?
No matter what your education cost you, spending a few years in prison isn't worth what you'd save. If someone told me I could have a million dollars to be in prison for two years, I'd turn it down in a heartbeat.
I've never found anyone who has been in prison who would disagree. That alone should tell you quite a bit.
I've found that nobody who hasn't been there has any real idea what it's like. Your statement bears that out nicely.
Virg
Oh, yeah everyone making 60 g's in an office is so tempted to beat people up and take their lunch money.... Economic situation creates criminals.
Do YOU have an e-commerce job? Tell me then what the difference is between a rap music fan site and an information site on chemistry?
If, people who are dirt poor had a good chance to go to college without committing a felony to get there - this discussion becomes moot.
True, and as I said, I'm all for that too. But that hasn't happened yet, and it would be very wrong to just write off the lives of those who are already in prison.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
...and it would be very wrong to just write off the lives of those who are already in prison.
Granted, I support the get-the-ganstas-off-the-streets movement, because that's giving kids a chance to actually make something of their lives. I will avidly oppose a prison-education system until their is a method for a free education (at least to an associates level) for citizens.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Actually, television is becoming common in prisons all over the world as a tool to control inmate behavior.
Perhaps one useful approach would be to use closed circuit television to control what the prisoners see. Educational, religious, or therapeutic programs might provide them with more understanding of the world than the deceptive images and stories that they see on commercial television.
A prison should never ban commercial television. Rather, it should set up a contrast between the amoral, consumer oriented ethos and a fundamentally moral one. Some prisoners would get it and some wouldn't. However, simply showing commercial television might calm their behavior while in prison but it is possible it would do nothing to discourage criminal behavior when they are out of prison.
This view of prison life says:
The most senseless use of time in prison has to be constant television watching. There are adult men in prison who watch cartoons and soap operas for hours each day. They know all the soaps' characters, plots, and can figure all the possible scenarios of upcoming episodes. They live through the tube. They call television the "Boob Tube" because it will make you dumb if you aren't already. Its shameless, naked images will poison your mind and spirit. Its fantasy will rob you of all original creative thinking abilities. Constant television watching develops the dangerous habit of always wanting to be entertained, which causes laziness.
One can see that television watching as a solution may be as bad as the disease.
Does treating them like subhuman scum do us any good in the long run? No.
I never suggested treating them like subhuman scum. I only suggest that they should not be given for free what anyone else has to pay for. Except basic needs (food and water, and occasionally medicine). They don't need a high-tech college education. They need a basic secondary (i.e. high school) education. That's all law-abiding citizens get for free, and that's all criminals should get for free. There are plenty of jobs for which that is sufficient. Let them deliver pizzas, wait tables, mop floors, and pump gas. We don't need to turn them into webmasters.
It's horrible, a waste of money only matched by the incredible amounts of money we waste on the military.
I used to think that, but right now, at this time, I'm glad we have every bit of military capability that we have. But that's a discussion for another day...
...You could argue that they implicitly chose it for themselves when they committed the crime
Bingo.
But when you consider that most of them are there for nonviolent crimes...
Not relevant.
at some point we should consider why the law is criminalizing so many people
The law isn't criminalizing people. It's criminalizing undesirable behavior. And there is plenty of undesirable behavior that is non-violent. Selling drugs, theft, fraud, etc. All non-violent, but also not victimless either.
but when you look at the larger picture we are all responsible
I don't see how. Yes it is our society and we made it. But we made it give free primary and secondary education to everyone, and we made it provide welfare to those who need it. There is no excuse for criminal behavior, and especially no excuse for violent criminal behavior.
In other words, the economically disadvantaged should be denied a higher education.
I never said that. I said that if you're going to start giving out free college educations, give it to the non-criminal economically disadvantaged people first, and to the criminals second. You want to raise everybody's taxes, including your own, enough to pay for universal college education? I'm willing to entertain the suggestion, even if I have to pay more taxes for it. But I would insist that the poor-but-honest people benefit first, the poor-and-criminal second, and the wealthy-and-criminal dead last.
When someone tells me exactly what it is that *I* did that is wrong, then I'll accept some of the blame for myself. We already know what the criminal did wrong. If you're going to blame society, you're going to have to justify that somehow. I don't simply accept it as axiomatic that whenever a criminal commits a crime, anyone else ought to take any blame.
When any one person does a crime, then sure, blame it on the person. But the US has the largest per-capita prison population in the world, and that's not because the luck of the die has led to a bunch of bad people to coincidentally be born here. It's because something is wrong with this country. The people of the US -- presumably you are also one of them -- have to take responsibility for that.
> I'm so sorry for calling them criminals.
No matter what you may think they did or didn't do, or what they actually did or didn't do, they were recruited from the street, not the jail. Based on the time-honored idea of innocent until proven guilty you are incorrect to call them criminals. More to the point, there are testimonials elsewhere in the comments to this story from people who went through this program, and several of them stated that they were not members of any gang at the time they were recruited. Again, whether you believe them or not is immaterial. Since there's no criminal record, I presume them innocent, and you need to as well. You cannot paint them as criminals because you feel it's likely that they are. That's prejudicial, and wrong.
Virg
And if we still have a student loan program in place and are edjucating in the prisons than our system is totally fucked.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.