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Are DVDs Software Or Films?
NewsWatcher writes: "In Australia a court case with international ramifications will decide if DVDs are software or films. If they are designated as software, rental prices will go through the roof, if they are films their distribution cannot be limited under copyright laws.
This article explains the ins and outs ." Unrelated incident -- FatRatBastard writes: "C|Net News is reporting that the new Warner Bros Powerpuff Girls DVD is infected with the FunLove virus. Note this only effects those who install the supplemental Windows software that comes on the DVD. The article claims that "The virus only affects PCs that load the disc, not DVD players" so I'm not sure if the DVD auto installs software if loaded on a Win PC, or if infection only happens if the user chooses to install the supplemental software."
Is a tape music or software?
Is a floppy disk music or software?
The media that something resides on does not change the identity of what it is. Therefore a DVD-based movie is still a movie.
I personally think that the DVD Videos themselves should be considered as films/video whereas DVD-ROM only discs should be software.
As far as DVD-Video discs with DVD-ROM content should be placed in whatever group the disc was primarily made for. Like the "Powerpuff Girls" DVD should be considered "film", although it's just a short-length cartoon with some "software" data on it since it's primary purpose isn't "software" related.
Just my opinion...
Im going home to watch Redhat 7.2 now, Don't post any spoilers.
Its like a CD. If its nothing but music, its a music CD. If it has computer (non-music) data, its software.
If its something I can use in my DVD player (attached to the TV, not computer), and get the full potential of the DVD, its a film. If there's extra stuff only my computer DVD-ROM can read, its software.
Over simplified? Probably.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
I'm wondering what the wholesale vs retail prices are for videos, is the gap as wide?
From article:
Warner simultaneously releases DVDs to the retail and rental market. They are color coded - silver for retail at
a wholesale price of $24, and blue for rental, wholesaling at $55.
When Warner threatened to sue video shops caught renting the retail-designated DVD, the association -
representing 55 per cent of Australian video shops - took the offensive. It argues that under the Copyright Act,
Warner cannot restrict the rental of DVD movies.
Some DVDs are film only. Some are software only. Some are films with minor menu software. Some are films with game software.
It depends.
But the thing that's disturbing is that the Powerpuff Girls have a virus. It must be the work of that villain MoJo JoJo! Quick, call the mayor's secretary, she'll know what to do!
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
...is to see what happens when it's run on the XBox. I never really thought about that, but do you really want a console that is highly susceptible to virii?
Seen any BadMarketing lately?
Something I've been wondering. How is the interactive part of a DVD programmed? Is there some sort of specialized Flash-style DVD language? Is there a spec for it somewhere? How is it encoded? How would you do something for your own custom DVDs?
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
The company is replacing all infected DVDs. The problem is getting word out to consumers about the recall. The problem is also moron consumers who read the headline "DVD infected with virus" and suddenly panic and flood customer support lines with concerns over what an infected DVD might do to their standalone Toshiba or Sony player.
I won't get into the problem that allows a DVD to be mastered and pressed with an virus in the supplimental software.
STOP MISUSING APOSTROPHES, YOU MORONS!!!
It seems from the article that the case Warner Home Video is presenting is that a DVD is computer software with a movie hidden somwhere inside, which is totally bogus.
When I go out to purchase a DVD, I'm thinking, "Wow, Fight Club is going to look awesome on my friends big screen;" not, "Wow, I can't wait to go home and enjoy my Fight Club-related software and included movie!" The mere fact that they market these as things that you *WATCH* with extra features should totally nullify their whole argument. I might be able to understand it if they called it "Interactive software, *now with a free movie!*," but they don't, because nobody wants that crap, they want a movie, if they didn't they wouldn't have purchased it. Get off your high-horse Warner and stop gouging rental outlets.
Fight Spammers!
Actually, you made it more complicated and confusing...
Last time I checked, software is a word which generally refers to a collection of instructions which is executed on a hardware or software device.
IE, If a DVD movie includes a game you can play on your TV, it's software. If a DVD just consists of encoded pixels for a movie, it's data.
Lets not make this more complicated than it really is or redefine things which have been properly defined for the past 50 years.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
Scenario 1: it's considered software, and rental prices go through the roof. The MPAA would freak if this happened.. people would pirate movies more than ever if this happened. MPAA gets screwed.
Scenario 2: it's considered a movie, and they are forced to remove Region Encoding... this allows a huge class-action lawsuit involving anyone who's ever bought a region restricted DVD (read everyone in the world). MPAA gets screwed.
It used to be that a few seconds at the front of every videotape said "Copying is prohibited, etc, etc," and you'd just fast forward through it. Nowadays all my DVDs have thirty second clips of FBI warnings, and they include codes that prevent my DVD player from fast forwarding. The DVD, literally, takes precedence over what I click on my remote control.
Although we all understand the UCITA has turned into a frightful mess, it seems like there does need to be a standard set of laws for software and content. When I buy a CD, most of the time I know what I'm getting and I know how to use it. When I buy a DVD, I don't know if they've somehow inserted idiotic menus and ads that I will be forced to watch.
There was a rental store near my parents house that rented computer games and they were the same as renting say a super nintendo game or whatever.
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Is there something that I'm not understanding here?
If the DVD contains a Movie stored in a digital format, created for the primary purpose of viewing said movie, it is a FILM. NOTE: Primary purpose means that it it also includes with the movie some software such as screensavers themed to the movie, but is marketed as a video, its primary purpose is to view the movie.
If the DVD was create to store data which will install applications onto a computer or simalar device, its SOFTWARE.
Why is this so hard to understand???
Am I Over-Moderating??
They're making the wrong categorization. They should be asking "is it an application, or is it content?" Everything that's not hardware is software; but some are applications (software that can be used to create content, or other software) and some is content (software that can't be used to create other content, or other software).
Of course, this means that video games are content, not software, too. But that's a much more reasonable distinction to make, anyway. After all, what is a video game but an interactive movie?
Mojo: Hahaha! Now the powerpuff girls cannot sell their DVD because the software contained inside it is infected with the virus I infected the software contained inside the DVD with. Now the Powerpuff girls' goody-goody reputation will be tarnished because nobody would beleive that the goody-goody Powerpuff Girls would do something that would tarnish their reputation like distributing a DVD that was infected with a virus!
Blossom: Not so fast, Mojo! The DVD runs just fine under linux if you use DeCSS!
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The presumption that forcing rental places to pay the full $55 will make rental prices go through the roof is, as presented, flawed. It assumes that the added cost of the DVDs will be such that the rental companies MUST charge significantly more to make up the difference. I expect that the cost of media is actually very small relative to the overhead of paying rent and staffing the store, so even a doubling of media price should not mean a doubling of rental prices. It assumes that rental places are forced to use the cheaper, non-rental DVDs because otherwise they would not make any money at all - i.e., that the margins on the rental business are razor sharp and depend critically on the price of the DVD. But a possibility is that these rental places are just looking to save every buck they can, and that they would still make a comfortable (albeit smaller) margin renting out $55 CDs.
Ultimately the price of rentals will NOT be determined solely by the cost of the media to the renting company. It will be determined by the market forces of supply and demand. The price will largely be determined by what price consumers are willing to pay. Given that DVDs are relatively inexpensive now (5-6 times the price of a 2-day rental in Canada), I think it is clear that the maximum price for (say) a 2-day DVD rental is clearly bounded and not much more than what those prices are now, and hence it seems unlikely DVD rental prices would ever go "through the roof".
Man... I would really like to infect the Powerpuff girls with my fun love...
Man, you need to seriously get out and meet some real (adult) women. Besides being anthropomorphic ink splotches, they're kindergartners for heaven's sake!
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If it was software, then it falls under the whole licensing rigamarole that most software does. However, they use the same type of legal warnings that VHS movies use. Plus, it's basically the same content. Yeah, it's got some flashy menus and such, but as many have said before if you classify this as software then CDs become software too. The content's the same, it's the media it's on that's different.
This is YADL (yet another dumb lawsuit) perpetrated by a company who wants to improve its bottom line. Should be interesting to see if the Aussies have more sense in their digital media policies than we do. It sickens me when a company tries to muck with laws in the digital era just because the lawmakers are ignorant about new technology. "Oh, it's the same movie, just on a different media, but let's call it software so we can charge more". Disgusting.
Electronic Frontier Foundation for online civil rights information
I don't think consumers need to fear this one much. While either film distributors or video stores will see their margins affected, it all balances out in the end.
Should the courts decide that DVDs *are* films, we'll probably just see more DVD's come out in an expensive version targeted at video stores a few weeks before the consumer market priced DVD's come out. Motivated video stores will get the releases early on (most have special agreements with the film distributors already anyhow). Those stores that wait will not see as many rentals since demand is highest at initial release, but they will save one the cost of the DVD.
If you have been watching PowerPuff Girls videos on your server...please go to the front of the line. That goes beyong geekdom....into a whole new realm.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
I don't think this should matter though, what is the primary intent of the DVDs, delivering movies or software? When Chocolate Coated Sugar Bombs includes a CD with a piece of software on it does its status as a food product end in favour of becoming a software package? Unfortunately as a number of people have pointed out, logic has no place in court, so cut and dry things are never cut and dry.
Chris Kuivenhoven is a thief, beware
DVD's contain very simple programs in a virtual machine that handle a lot of the viewing control settings. If they are software however then the film industry still loses.
Under EU law I have a right to make backups of software.
wouldn't this mean that Warner Bros is guilty of terrorism under the new patriot act? If so wouldn't that mean that the US military should head in and start bombing the snot out of them?
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head
This is about how the Aussies categorize their products (and, I would guess from the story, there's some price control laws in effect), not Hollywood.
Real simple: if they change the prices, just rent tapes.
Funnily enough the Campaign for Digital Rights was having a discussion about whether CDs can be treated as software(http://uk.eurorights.org/lists/ukcdr/200
This has large implications for backing music up and/or created mp3s as software is treated very differently to music under UK law, such ""Back up copies.
50A.=97(1) It is not an infringement of copyright for a lawful user of a copy of a computer program to make any back up copy of it which it is necessary for him to have for the purposes of his lawful use.
So it's nice to see Warner Home video arguing our case.
"Free software as in beer, copy protection as in racket" - Telsa Gwynne
DVDs are hardware. The content on DVDs can either be software or film. That's up to whoever made the DVD.
An MPEG file isn't software. An EXE isn't film (although it could contain a film). I don't see the problem in making the determination.
OTOH, if a DVD is software, and not a motion picture, I can publicly display it and charge for admission. There is no right to public display for software.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
How is copyright law and consumer rights different between software and film?
---
Segmentation Fault ( core dumped )
From reading through the DMCA, there were countless places where they purposely made a distinction between digital content and software. Basically, they can do things with content (like keep you from making a backup) that they cannot do with software.
Anyone want to correct me?
The article claims that "The virus only affects PCs that load the disc, not DVD players" so I'm not sure if the DVD auto installs software if loaded on a Win PC, or if infection only happens if the user chooses to install the supplemental software."
Nothing will get installed automatically if you choose to set a system up the way it should be -- I.E. Nothing without the user telling it to do so.
That's one of the biggest dangers (and most easily prevented) of Microsoft operating systems.
In an effort to make systems more automated so Joe-Shitwits can use them, systems have become so powerful they have the power to destroy themselves like the mindless machines they are.
I leave Autoinsert Notification on, but I turn off the ability for disks to autorun software. Thankfully, other operating systems aren't nearly as obnoxious about this as Windows is. (Though, I'm not sure how the Mac handles it...)
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
It would be a bad thing for DVDs if they are found to be software. Raising the price of their rental will change their course to be a marginalized technology such as laser disc. If a consumer has the choice between the VHS version for even half the cost, I think most will go back to VHS.
Do I think they may be software? Well, a lot of DVDs do have those crappy games and such attached to them. But even some music CDs have this. It's a tough call.
-no broken link
A DVD movie is a stream of bits that is processed by hardware and converted into something humans use.
A software title is a stream of bits that is processed by hardware and converted into something humans use.
Content is basically another form of software.
Not to say that I approve of adding more restrictions, just because you can call it software... I don't approve of any restrictions, period.
But it's important to realize that bits are bits, and no matter what sort of content those bits make up, they're essentially alike.
That means that DVD players are encryption technology, and you need a munitions license to export them!
"Here, you two morons fight it out. Let us know if you need more ammo."
Brian
If Warner wins on this they should be required to replace any scratched, lost, or otherwise unplayable DVD for the cost of the media only. ($1). BY LAW.
The law is a place for things that make sense, but the law is intentionally a very slow moving cumbersome beast. Of course when there's a major shift in any realm governed by laws the law takes a while to catch up. Unfortunately this process of catching up can involve short term idiocy while the ramifications of the laws are truely understood. This process is further muddled because there are power structures built around the old way of doing things which are now at risk.
Right now what we see is that lawmakers are trying to maintain those power structures. The reasons for this are numerous but I think that in the long run as the negative impact of artificially sustaining these structures will become clear.
For example we talk here about whether this is software or a movie. Well it is software, but then every form of media is getting to be software of a sort. Identifying these things as software is fine, but the problem here is the notion that somehow being software changes the nature of the beast. It's the problem that somehow first sale doctrine is slowly getting corrupted by EULA's.
The concept of licensing of intellectual property was originally intended for dealing with small scope releases. You'd license information to a subsidiary or a contractor and because of the nature of the information it made sense to have broad restrictions on what they could do with that information. But when we are talking about mass commercial sales, a EULA makes no sense at all. Why should I be unable to sell my used copy of Microsoft Windows but be able to sell my used copy of a VNV Nation album? The purpose of EULA's was to limit the distribution and use of proprietary information but if things are being distributed on a broad scale, it doesn't make any sense (except for those wishing to usurp copyright law).
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Does this mean people at Warner Bros can be jailed for years under the new terrorism act?
In the UK at present, it is not uncommon for film distributors to charge different amounts for the non-theatric hire (film clubs, schools, oil rigs etc) of a film based on the physical medium. A 35mm print of a film might cost £250 for a single screening, compared to £80-100 for a 16mm print and £50-80 for a VHS or DVD print. They're all still films, but the different media command different prices. Interestingly, a rental agreement for a film in one format does not permit exhibition in a different format - often different formats are distributed by different companies.
However, that is not the issue behind this Australian case, where (cheaper) retail prints are being used in place of (more expensive) rental prints. The price does not reflect the 'value' of the physical print or of the film therein (although for VHS, the recording quality of rental prints is generally better than that of retail), but rather the rights which are permitted to the owner of the print.
IMHO, Warner is entirely justified in attempting to stamp out unlicensed rental of retail prints, just as it already makes non-theatric hire licenses available at a lower price than that of theatric hire licenses (as would be required of a cinema or other commercial exhibitor). I say again, the cost of a print (for sale or rent) depends on the exhibition rights which are given to its owner.
I wonder how the MPAA will defend their use of region coding? When's the last time that you bought a piece of software that was linked to the theatrical release of a movie. I can just see it... Microsoft won't release Office 2004 until after "Back to the Future IV" has shown in theaters in your area.
If they dropped region coding (which they won't do), do you think that rental stores will just buy (probably cheaper) grey market videos?
The way this used to work in the days of VHS was that they would sell only one version of the tapes... For the first few months it would be priced at the rental-store-price of $100-$300, and then after that it would drop to the consumer-price of $20-$30. Now, I guess they're getting greedy and want to sell to consumers as soon as possible.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
This will probably get lost in all the noise, but here we go anyway.
Imagine for a second a world where DVDs had never been invented. In such a world, any interactive content would have to be packaged separately, say in a bundled CD-ROM like you get in kids cereal boxes these days. This presents a clear physical separation of the interactive content from the product. In this case the "software" component is just a freebie extra that *happens* to come with the video (or cereal).
Now back to the real world where we DVDs have been invented. The physical separation of software and product (in this case video content) becomes a *logical* separation. Instead of a VHS cassette box and a bundled CD-ROM, we now have the abstract separation of MPEG files and executable binaries. The interactive content is still just a freebie extra that *happens* to come with the purchase or rental of the DVD. In this case, we must consider the DVD to a film, and have all the copyright privilidges and restricitons of said media.
But wait, there's more. The above case only works if one cannot interact directly with the movie as it is being played. Suppose someone devises a method for actually interacting with a running movie. Remember "Clue", the movie with several different endings? Suppose someone had devised a method that, through user choices made during the playback of the movie, different storylines would appear. In this case, the DVD must be considered "software" because playback somehow contains binary instructions for choosing a movie path.
Therefore, I advocate a classification system where discs are labled as "software" or "film". It may be slightly convoluted, but it seems to me that this is the only way to be fair...
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
"Software"....
Now, any decent dyed-in-the-wool geek can agree that a piece of "software" is an instruction-set that executes on a turing machine. Eventually, whether the turing machine is represented in a combination of hardware (x86 machine code anyone?) or in a collection of software (I love my Perl), the result is the same: Both are software.
Now, for the second case, it's interesting to look at the "collection of software" or interpretter or virtual machine (take your pick by all means). Now this "collection of software" is obviously software (reflexive identity). So it _is_ possible to have software that is used to execute software (my Perl programs are _too_ software d@mnit).
So, when I examine the byte-structure of my *.pl files... I notice to my horror that they contain all these non-zero data between 0 and 255.
Horrifyingly enough, so do all my *.mp3 files and even the data blocks on my DVD's.
Does that mean they're software?
Does that mean that my Perl programs are content?
Yes!
Simply put: The distinction between content and software has not been drawn cohesively on a technological basis.
Does that mean that laws cannot be crafted that distinguish between the categories of products?
No!
One approach would be to categorize the product based on an intended use, my laserdisk version of Dragon's Lair is decidedly a software product, I still enjoy playing it; however, my laserdisks of the original Star Wars trilogy are decidedly not softare. Similarly, I don't anticipate that any movies I buy would be well-categorized as software due to usage.
Basically, the problem is that a cohesive, medium-orthoganal, and useful treatment of copyright materials has not been crafted by any government in a manner more consistent with usage and ethical principles than with public and lobbyist pressures.
What is software? Its information. What is a film on a CD? Information again. This confuses people.
What sort of information is software? It consists of two essential properties: instructions and data. The instructions tell a computer what to do with the data.
A movie, quite in contrast, consists only of data. Where are the computer-understandable instructions in that stream of data that is on a DVD?
That stream of data would crash your computer in seconds if you try to use it as instructions (side-question: would that make Windows sort of a movie?) Software on a DVD doesn't transform the movie into software for exactly the same reason that staying in a garage doesn't make you a car.
You found a sword: +4 damage, +5 moderator points
If you want to move out of the double-wide and get off Food Stamps,
Obviously, you have never analyzed the literacy level of the average $250,000-a-year corporate exec. Trust me, you can be a stuttering imbecile and still run a Fortune 1000 company in this society. That's one of the reasons (I suspect) that most of them abandon email after they reach Director or so. It's just too embarrasing to be constantly revealing to the rank and file that no, you don't read anything past the subject line of your own emails and yes, you really do spell "definitely" with one 'a,' one 'i,' and one 'e,' and it's not just a typo.
All they have to do to show DVD's are film and not software is to load in a full-frame DVD - usually they start with the warning "This FILM has been formatted to fit your screen".
If the DVD itself says it's a film, how can they say otherwise? This sounds like an argument even someone with no technical expertise can disagree with.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Here's why.
These exact same bastards are claiming that software isn't protected speech in the DeCSS case.
If software isn't protected speech, and DVDs are software, then DVDs are not protected speech.
That means the government can start censoring all kinds of movies, and music and assrape the entire entertainment industry.
Then, they can see how it feels to have the First Amendment rights that they value trampled a little bit.
In fact, I might start just such a crusade just to be a prick.
It makes me wonder if people who open their mouths and start spouting bullshit that that they think will help their position of the moment ever think back to what they said yesterday. I wonder whether or not they think about any sort of a larger picture, or whether they are even capable of understanding things in a larger context. Did you ever read that "mappers" and "packers" paper? They must be a bunch of packers to start doing something this stupid in the face of the DeCSS thing.
Best. Comment. Ever. Enjoy!
If you can have a Virus on a DVD, surely it must be software?
Besides, as the DVD prices in Austrialia are cheap, and no-one rents DVD's anyway ($3 for two nights when you can buy it for $9) it mustn't be that important, unless it's the Tax (ie. EU's Computer tax is alot lower then on Films)
And besides, there's always DivX....
The XBox doesn't run Win32 PE executable files so no autorun stuff is going to work. To improve performance (and give game devs more flexibility) everything on the XBox runs in kernel mode so you really are never going to see anything that runs on consumer Windows (9x, 2k, XP etc.) run on the XBox.
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
COuld have been a sony hardware targeted virus.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Neither. They are plastic.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
I seriously doubt TW has considered the implications of its success if it gets DVD videos considered to be software.
They will then be Microsoft's competition.
Ouch.
In light of the recent possibility of Microsoft getting off "scott-free" with or without the 3 person panel, this is going to be a battle of the titans, to put it mildly.
*IF* that turns out to be the case, I honestly don't know if I/we should be scared shitless or sit back and enjoy the show.
(shrug)
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
The definition of software under the copyright act is basically any instructions that make a machine produce a desire result. There are US legal precedents that imply that HTML qualifies.
Unlike a music CD, a DVD has navigation commands that were rich enough to implement the old game Dragonslayer. This includes chapter markup, paging, etc... The MPEG-2 and AC-3 compression is essentially instruction for how to reproduce the raw video and sound. Even the CSS encryption TPM is a software mechanism. During the preliminary injuction hearing in the DeCSS DMCA case Kaplan asked the MPAA guy something like "What is this key thing? is it hardware, is it software?" and the reply was "it is software".
I think it is very clear that DVD's are more than simple content. They are meant to be read only by a particular computer program.
The implication is that 17 USC 117 applies which gives "owners" of software certain additional rights - ability to "adapt" for use in a machine and ability to archive. If a DVD is software, it also refutes judge Kaplan's reverse engineering analysis (he found the DMCA RE clauses only apply to software works and wrongly assumed that a DVD wasn't one).
Actually, snuck is less colloquial - past tenses like "snuck", "hung" and the like are of older derivation than modern forms such as "sneaked".
A movie is software, so a DVD indeed is software, and so are a VHS tape and a vinyl record : although analogical, they still contain instructions that are interpreted by a device, so they qualify as software.
Wouldn't the same arguments apply? In fact, PS is a programming language. Don Lancaster: "an unappreciated yet superb general purpose computing language"
Regards, Mark
Think of your favorite games that have FMV sequences. The actual game engine, software, controls the FMV "movie". But the entire CD is considered software.
Take Microsoft's Encarta on DVD. I'm sure MS isn't going to say that's a "movie" no matter how many videos it contains.
A "movie" DVD, on the other hand, contains a relatively small "software" portion and a comparatively larger "movie" portion (plural if you consider the outtakes, trailers, interviews). So what's the difference? The actual sizes of the "software" and "movie"???
It's absurd to consider a DVD anything BUT software.
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
Hrmm... why don't we all go out and buy a copy of the powerpuff DVD so that we can get in on the class-action lawsuit. Seeing the size of 'damages' that companies claim when they get infected, we should have no problem getting free DVDs for life. +)
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
Take it to the next level. Interactive movies. At what point does it cease to be a movie and become a very high-res adventure game (ie, software)?
Dyolf Knip
(From my weblog:) I would like to propose an interesting spin on this story: Should Warner Brothers win, then the following syllogism will hold:
- All movies are expressions that in America would be protected under the First Amendment.
- All movies are software (since all movies can be put on DVD).
- There exists at least one movie.
- Therefore, there exists software that in America would be protected under the First Amendment.
Once a single piece of software is over that line, it's going to be very, very hard to draw a line that includes movies (movies, of all things!), yet excludes other things.This story hails from Australia, not the USA, but it would still probably have some interesting ramifications, even in Australia.
Note that in particular, DeCSS, a DVD decryption program, is trying to claim software-as-expression as a defense in the USA. Warner, a member of the RIAA, has gone on record now, at least in Australia, as claiming that DVD movies are an instance of a thing that is both software and an expression protectable under the First Amendment.
So, a DVD is software that renders film... Argh my head hurts....
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
DMCA is so horrid. I mean-- Microsoft has decent quality control in their manufacturing process (they use UNIX according to a recently removed KB article). The chances of getting a virus from legit MS software is pretty low because they are a software company and understand the issues of virus-free distribution.
One thing the DMCA does, though, is give complete content control to the entertainment industry. I mean, this is a virus. If they can't sell virus-free media, do you REALLY expect their content protection systems to be that much more professional?
The SSSCA is even worse for this reason...
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Of course, from the legal notification on the beginning of the DVD (FBI Warning), it seems that the movie companies are claiming that they are films. No end user lisence agreement, just the same FBI warning one would see on a VHS.
My 2 cents:
I think since they are _primarily_ used for viewing movies, they should legally be treated as films, with the exception of DVD-based "games" (such as the DVD version of Dragon's Lair).
And as far as other programs on the disc that require a PC to play (such as the infamous stuff on the Powerpuff Girls disc), there should be a separate lisence for those individually, as not to confuse those with the actual film content.
Of course, I'm sure that movie companies want it "both ways," so that when they bust some poor 14 year old for using DeCSS to watch an out of region DVD, they can charge him with video piracy laws AND software piracy laws, and make sure he gets twice as much time in ass-pounding federal prison.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Getting DVDs classed as software to give the companies more control in how high they can set the price for their product is a lot different from actually getting people to pay that price. Fine, kill imports, nuke rental places renting grey market stuff, change 4 times the current price -- The market will simply go elsewhere for their fun. Weekend swapmeets are growing and, hey, there's that funky library thing too.
The encoding used to generate a viewed movie from a DVD is a series of commands to a special device called a "DVD Player". The DVD contents include menus. They sometimes include games which the DVD player executes. It also includes special instructions to paint regions of the screen and make sound come out of a speaker.
Most importantly, the language is "Turing-complete". You can calculate anything a Turing machine can calculate with it. Calculate and display Pi to a million digits and scroll through it with the forward and backward buttons on the remote.
The particular method of encoding the movie that was used *is* software. The movie is embedded in software.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
Interesting. But your syllogism is not totally bulletproof. The major flaw with your argument is that studios could claim that a physical DVD contains both software and data. They would pretend that the DVD contains a "program" which plays the "movie data"
Then they can have it both ways: the data is protected under the first amendment, while the program is not. They don't want software to be first-amendment protected of course, and for DVDs they don't need it to be.
From what I understand of the DVD format, I think that would be bulls**t. But, they might be able to get it past a judge.
Other flaws with your proposed syllogism:
1. Not all movies are protected by the first amendment. (child porn)
2. Not all movies ARE software, because not all movies are on DVD.
A better version:
1. There exist DVDs which contain motion pictures protected by the first amendment as free speech in the United States.
2. DVDs contain software (as claimed by the studios)
3. The software and motion picture content of a DVD are inseparable. (the potentially weak point)
3. Therefore, there exists software which is protected by the first amendment as free speech in the United States.
I agree with the rest of your post - if you can get to point #3, it would be difficult for the studios to say that other software, including DeCSS, should not be protected as free speech.
BTW, the important thing about Warner w.r.t. the DeCSS case is that they are a member of the DVD CCA (the movie / CSS people), not the RIAA (the music people). They're all evil, so it's easy to get them mixed up...
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
"In Australia a court case with international ramifications will decide if DVDs are software or films. If they are designated as software, rental prices will go through the roof, if they are films their distribution cannot be limited under copyright laws."
Here's the decision we'll get: It's both!
rental prices will go through the roof,
yup
cannot be limited under copyright laws.
that too! Sounds like a win/win for the movie industry here.
-Kasreyn
Kasreyn: Cheerfully playing the part of Devil's Advocate to hairtrigger
They would pretend that the DVD contains a "program" which plays the "movie data"
;-)
Errrr, no, they couldn't. Even a judge can see through that one. The program is quite clearly in the player.
'Not all movies are protected by the first amendment.'
The ones Warner Brothers make are!!!
'Not all movies ARE software, because not all movies are on DVD.'
The only thing we're talking about is movies on DVD. The existance of other things doesn't much matter. It's DVD's WB wants to claim are software.
BTW, the important thing about Warner w.r.t. the DeCSS case is that they are a member of the DVD CCA (the movie / CSS people), not the RIAA (the music people). They're all evil, so it's easy to get them mixed up...
Ahhhh, frick.
And yes, 3 is weak. Like I said, the only thing we get here is an admission that *some* software is isomorphic to first-amendment protectable content. The point is that in the DeCSS case, the movie industry wants to argue that *no* software is first-amendment-protectable.
Software or movie it's all just data. Software or movie that data is interpretted (in some sense of the word) by another software/firmware/hardware combination to provide some form of output.
On that side of the equation the two are largely inseperable.
However I think a key factor is considering how the data is created. On the software side you have a piece of data which is the logically exact representation of that data's source. It is a definitive rendition. On the movie side (analogue or digital) that is not true. The data is an approximation of the original, not a logically definitive rendition of it.
In short anything that is being pushed through a lossy process and be still expected to "work" cannot be considered software as software does not tolerate such lossyness (if that's a word).
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
It's amazing the capacity of self harming of MPAA. DVD with virus? I can't believe this, but the most funny of all this is that nobody can develop a scan software neither a fix software, because it'll fall upon DMCA.
What can we do now? I just won't run WB DVDs on my windows box (As if I had one). And outside US everybody else who can choose between a official copy of and a unofficial clean copy of WB DVD will surely choose the unofficial.
Once again, MPAA amazes me with it's power of self harming.
-=-=-=-=
I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be un-fair in MY favor!?
Simply lay it side by side with a roll of 72mm camera film.
Really, the answer isn't as obvious as you seem to think.
Steven
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
In order to really debate this, there needs to be a clear definition of what "software" is. Websters' doesn't cut it - HTML documents, CD audio, etc, all fall under it.
How about "Software, n. Computer Science
Instructions to a turing-complete hardware system which produces an image or effect that is manipulatable and interactive for the user."
That covers anything you can manipulate in software. Games, AutoCAD, Windows, MacOS, Linux, MUDs, etc... but it doesn't cover video (you can't manipulate it to what you want), audio (same, you can't change what the song sounds like without other software that acts on it), and such.
Most of the definitions penned quite a long time ago for computer technology need to be updated in a major way.
I'm aware of that specific, technical use - but in general, either is correct (and hung is the older form).