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Message from Kabul
When his message came, the Taliban had just fled, Northern Alliance soldiers had taken over his village, and everybody rushed to barbers to cut off their beards and to nearby holes and hiding spots to dig up their Walkmen, VCRs, TVs, CD players, and -- in Junis's case -- his ancient Commodore, one of four in the village. Cafes had popped up all over, with impromptu dances and parties everywhere.
Junis's e-mail -- routed to Kabul, then Islamabad, then London -- was a reminder that there are civil liberties, and then there are civil liberties. Computers had been banned under penalty of death by the Taliban (except for the Taliban themselves), along with music and TV. Junis, a computer geek obsessed with Linux, had first e-mailed me years ago while I was writing for Hotwired. He was genial and obsessed with American culture. He loved martial arts movies, anything to do with Star Wars, and rap. He was perhaps the Taliban's prime kind of target. (Now he's furiously trying to download movies he's missed and is mesmerized by open source and Slashdot.)
"I could still see the dust of the pick-up trucks carrying the Taliban out of my village," he wrote, "and some friends and I went and dug up the boards of a chicken coop where I had hid the computer. They might have beaten or killed us if they'd found it. It was forbidden, although they used computers all of the time." He claims American commandos are skulking around dressed as Northern Alliance tribesmen.
Junis describes life under the Taliban as brutal, terrifying and profoundly boring. What the people in his town -- especially the kids -- missed most was music, posters of Indian and American movie stars (he'd kept his own decaying poster of Madonna), and American TV. Junis missed the fast-changing Web and sees, he says, that he has fallen "forever behind," and that programming is more complex than ever. But at least "Baywatch," which everyone in his town acutely missed, is back, and there's already a lot of talk about "Survivor." Junis predicts "Temptation Island" will be the number one show in Afghanistan within a month.
If the world needed another demonstration of America's most powerful weapon -- not bombs or special forces but pop culture -- it got it again this week. People all over the planet fuss about whether this healthy and democratic or corrupting and dehumanizing, but people's love for American techno-toys, TV shows, music and movies is breathaking. Watching TV pictures of tribesman on horseback, it's easy to forget that technology reached deep into this culture as well. Junis says phone service around Kabul remains spotty, but reporters, U.N. workers and foreign soldiers are wiring up. He's already made his way to some sex sites, and wishes he had a printer.
There are many computers in Afghanistan, Junis said, many in clusters in cities like Kabul and Kandahar (news reports have frequently mentioned that Bin-Laden's organization used both e-mail and encrypted files to communicate). Computer geeks are already hooking up with one another all over the country; Junis isn't the only Afghan e-mailing these days. He says other coders and gamers hid their PC's as well. Meanwhile, he's especially eager to get his hands on the Apple iPod, and has been drooling over the Apple website site since he got back online. And some things, of course, never change. "I thought they were going to get Microsoft," he wrote. "I guess not."
A decade ago, when East Berlin teenagers stormed the Wall and crossed over into West Berlin, the first thing many of them did was rush to music stores to buy tapes and CD's they'd been secretly, illegally listening to for years.
The Taliban worked to create the antithesis of the American world, one without technology, computing, the Net, music, or any vestige of popular culture (not to mention women's rights, elections, a free press or any religion except fundamentalist Islam. Junis said people in his town risked their lives repeatedly, not to fight the Taliban, but to try and listen to CD's and watch videos smuggled in from Pakistan, watched in the dark under blankets and in cellars. It seems the outcome was inevitable.
Technology is part of evolution. You cannot stop, confine, or reverse technology. This is something the taliban has no chance of doing.
--
FearLinux.com
He's trying to download movies on a Commodore?
http://saveie6.com/
RTFP (Read The F***ing Post). He dug it up from a hiding spot underneath the chicken coop. Stop trolling, it's not amusing.
So let me get this straight - your friend was catching up with movies on a Commodore?
Still, interesting story.
Daisy cutters and cluster bombs are kinda unfriendly. Not exactly "surgical" either..
.. that is too cruel.
But Baywatch
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
How can this Afghani geek afford an Ipod? When did DSL/broadband get into Kabul?
This story sounds fishy, but then it is Tuesday.
Does anyone else thing that this sounds an awful lot like someone got a fake email? A hoax, a sham, an untruth? It just seems too... too... too much like what we geeks would want to hear.
I reckon one of those could play movies.
Best Slashdot Co
Has he gotten spammed yet?
They certainly were that repressive. But think about how Americans would react if a fundamentalist government seized power, banning computers, music and TV. Surely there would be a mass hiding of equipment against the day when the government fell.
I must say though, it makes me feel a little sick that the first thing the Afghans will see when they brush the soil from the TVs will be Jerry Springer, Temptation Island and MTV...
They open the theaters, people get their TVs and computers back. It's good.
But the women aren't allowed in the theater, they can't function in public, and they still aren't allowed to see doctors. It's not that removing the Taliban is a bad thing, but for a significant part of the population, the current status really hasn't gotten any better.
Food for thought, and it makes me thankful that I was born in the US and have the ability to say such things...
What are the odds that the copy of Independence Day is pirated.
http://www.windmeadow.com/
Of course, as nice as this sounds, the story is a little strange - I was under the impression there were almost no remaining international phone lines and that electricity was probably out in many of these areas, so I am a bit suspicious. But what do I know, maybe he has a generator and maybe the international phone lines are back up. Also the line about trying to download movies is definitely suspicious. At 9600 baud perhaps? OK, give them the benefit of the doubt, 28.8k. Doesn't sound too believable to me.
So I think this submission is either a bit of a hoax or a bit exaggerated, but it still is a nice sentiment even if the specifics are not true. And hopefully there is a guy somewhere in Afghanistan digging up his old Commodore.
Welcome Back!
Apart from the fact that he's supposedly saying that he's "downloading movies" on a commodore (ie a machine with little or no hard drive and no processing power to decode div-x's, with modems that are so antiquated that even downloading a 20meg divx would probably take a few weeks... no wonder he's furious...), it all sounds... I don't know... fake is probably the word.
As for digging up all the forbidden stuff as soon while they could still see the dust from the trucks of the talibans, that is just plain unbelievable. I doubt anyone who's just lived under such an oppressive regime would take that risk. What if they forgot something and drive back up to get it? Just because the trucks have driven away doesn't mean they're gone for good.
I would think that people living under oppressive regimes develop a sort of natural paranoia as a survival mechanism... my father who lived most of his life in communist Romania still has it twenty years after fleeing the country... I find it surprising that afghans would lose it in minutes...
Daniel
The people of Afghanistan don't have televisions, they don't have music, and they don't have telephones... but they have e-mail access one day after the Northern Alliance "liberates" the city? And, coincidentally, he likes Open Source and Slashdot? What???
I'm sorry, but I just can't honestly believe this story to be true without some kind of third-party verification. And even then, I'd still be skeptical. It just doesn't sound legit to me...
So the top three TV shows mentioned in the story ("acutely missed" is the phrase connected to one of them) are Baywatch, Survivor, and Temptation Island?
Three shows based on the concept of manly men frolicking with scantily-clad women, and in the latter two, premised on the assumption that all humans are conniving backstabbers, and that relationships cannot last in the face of lust, respectively.
And we're trying to convince the Middle East that America is a just and moral nation? Ya ha ha, whatever.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
You failed to ask the most important questions! ;)
What is the perception of the afghan's people about the US intervention? Do they feel that the sacrifice of innocents (accidents/mistakes on US forces part, but none less deadly) justify their new freedom? Do they feel that westerners should continue to use force to try to democratize Afghanistan? Or should the coalition now leave from their point of view?
I saw on TV an Afghan who lost 8 members of his family to US bombs. Yet, he had one message for the US forces: aim better. He did not asked to stop. Others though were very angry against the US after loosing some family member.
I want to know what the people of Afghanistan wants. I see some demonstrations in western countries asking for the bombings to stop. I say, that we might at least hear what the Afghan have to say. If they believe that the bombings are worthwhile, who are we to ask to stop these actions?
BTW, have you some websites/forums to suggest where we could directly interact with Afghanistan people? I would really like to have a few exchanges with some of them.
Remember the year 2000? They promised us flying cars. They delivered the PT Cruiser...
I hope that things don't move too fast in Afghanistan. It's easy to sit here in the west and think this is all fine and dandy, but if this all gets pushed in too fast it could end up being culture shock to a lot of people, and potentially generate more fundamentalist extremists (who would of course be anti-american). Afghanistan needs to change, but it needs to do it slowly. It needs to find that middle ground that most of the people will find socially acceptable.
For better or for worse, this once again proves that once Pandora's box is open you can't shut it, no matter how hard you try.
Having lived in Africa, I've seen firsthand how quickly, frighteningly so, things can change during a coup d'etat. People whose constraints have been mostly external for some time, lose control very quickly when those constraints are lifted, but within a few days things settle down and they regain their internal control/balance.
Perhaps we can get this guy from kabul to answer some questions for us?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
But think about how Americans would react if a fundamentalist government seized power, banning computers, music and TV. Surely there would be a mass hiding of equipment against the day when the government fell.
Nope, there would be a mass march of gun owners on Washington, loaded and ready.
This will never happen, though, because only the Amish and Luddite freaks don't see the value of technology. Even the most rigid fundies still want to be able to proselytize via the net.
Good thing I don't give a damn about karma.
Best Slashdot Co
a few things that REALLY make me think that Katz either made this crap up, or is the victim of a VERY poorly fabricated hoax:
1 - I know it's been said already, but it bears repeating...how does one download MOVIES on an "ancient commodore"? And furthermore, how does one play them?
2 - When you're living in Afghanistan, who do you call to get internet access?
3 - If the guy's using that "ancient commodore", what would prompt him to salivate over an IPod? First of all, it's doubtful that he would have ever acquired even a single MP3 file, let alone enough to fill an IPod. Oh, and Commodores didn't have firewire back in my day. Seems like the guy would be more likely to lust after a 2-year old Athlon system and a broadband connection rather than an IPod.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed this pile of absolute rubbish. Katz should be sent over to Kabul to investigate the situation himself.
Didn't the Taliban STRICTLY regulate technology? The Taliban thought the Internet was evil, after all, and outlawed it. So I find it HIGHLY suspicious that someone managed to start up an ISP in the middle of this war, and that someone else out there is more concerned about getting on Slashdot than staying alive and eating, which is what 99% of the Afghani population is probably concerned with.
This was bullshit. Sorry, but it *can't* be legit.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
Perhaps this "Afghani" sent you a picture he got, too, right? It looks like this, right?
I tell my mother when she gets emails like the one you have, katz, is to first check snopes, then check the local news (if it isn't on the news, then it isn't real, usually).
Think about it. A computer geek in afghanastan finally gets his computer (commodore, mind you), and whats one of the first people he emails? Jon Katz? Hmmm....
Sorry, but I'm waaay to skeptic for this (and I'm religious...)
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
I'd never really thought of it before seeing this post, but the one common factor you always hear small town residents use to describe their lives is "Everyone Knows Everyone." I'm probably being a pollyana here, but I believe that the "Global Village" is doing the same thing, helping people throughout the world understand (and hopefully get along) with each other.
I had a grandfather who went to West Point and served with distinction in the U.S. Army in WWII. A good, honorable man in many ways, but also a bigot down to his bones. I can't help but wonder what sort of man he'dve been if he could've clicked on a website growing up and learned how people live in Saudi Arabia or Tokyo or even just the "wrong side of the tracks" in his hometown.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Despite the many technical questions this has already raised (movies on ancient computers). I see that this is a fine example for how a government can not retain control of a people if it is not representing their interests. It is especially helpful to remember this anytime I see the US Gov leaders doing things I didn't want them to do when I voted. People will be free, and they can have what they want once they work out what that is and seek it as a group.
It seems you've lost a lot of freedom recently - I haven't seen anyone march. Besides do you seriously believe a group of disorganized people with handguns an rifles is actually a match for the US army - one of the most modern and best trained armies in the world? Didn't work terribly well for the Taliban just now, did it?
I got an e-mail from Timmy-bin Hashareef. He has cancer of the appendix. It said for every time you forwarded his e-mail, the Afghanistan chapter of the American Appendix Society would donate little Timmy 3 cents and a camel. It also said that if you didn't forward the e-mail, you would get beaten by the Taliban. SEND OUT THE WORD KATZ! THIS IS 274% TRUE!
haha I want a pink slip with Katz's name on it for Christmas.
Chaos, Mayhem, and Destruction: Not
It really comes down to this. This email is suspect because it is written in a very american perspective and anybody who has traveled extensively outside of the US knows that most of the world doesn't work or think this way. I feel this person would be just simply unable to gain the ideology expressed here. But on the other hand, I could be wrong.... -Sean
When his message came, the Taliban had just fled, Northern Alliance soldiers had taken over his village, and everybody rushed to barbers to cut off their beards and to nearby holes and hiding spots to dig up their Walkmen, VCRs, TVs, CD players, and -- in Junis's case -- his ancient Commodore, one of four in the village. Cafes had popped up all over, with impromptu dances and parties everywhere
Surely life has improved tremendously in the few days since the Taliban left Kabul. And certainly many people are enjoying new (old) freedoms. However, your description is a gross exaggeration -- "everybody", "everywhere". Resistance groups like the RAWA have already expressed concern that life under groups like the Northern Alliance will be like life in Afghanistan was in the years before 1996 -- still brutal and repressive, just not in the extreme. While the picture of people shaving their forced beards off in masses or playing music and partying is certainly relieving, it is contrasted by a reality of executions/murders and, likely, rape. (Also, to be sure, many people are quite happy with their beards and appreciated the censorship and repression by the Taliban, much like many Germans supported the nazis completely.) Save the picture of "liberated Afghanistan" for the day when Afghanistan is actually liberal.
Fortunately, the US government seems to be pushing for a secular Afghanistan, but do not be satisfied just because the Taliban are going into guerilla mode. The Northern Alliance are merely the lesser evil.
If I lived under the Taliban for 5 years and finally got back a net connection, emailing JonKatz wouldn't be on the top of my list. Maybe the Taliban really messed with his mind...
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
For godsake this sounds like the most hockum hooey I've heard in a long time. "Independence Day" as a movie to rent. Lets get this straight
30miles outside of Kabul there is a video shop (lets pretend that one is reasonable) which saved its copies of "Independence Day" which it was renting to an audience which in the vast majority of cases doesn't speak english.
Hokum, baloney and rubbish. This sounds about as likely as a lead balloon circumnavigating the globe. I've read some vomit inducing stuff here from Katz but this takes the biscuit. Quite simply unadulterated rubbish. Movies on a commadore, what browser is our Afghan friend using and what player ?
You've been had Katz by one of the most transparent hoaxes I've ever seen.
I have bridges you might want to buy.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Okay.
But could someone please explain to me about communist China?
Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
Yeah, I am rather suspicious of the whole thing, too. As Eddy Izzard says, "The infrastructure's fucked." (God: "Oh? Well, have some jam. And here's a radiator.")
It looks like Katz is the butt of someone's joke. Without some backing evidence (such as complete mail headers showing routes, and evidence that the headers aren't forged), I consider this a kremvax.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Hi, my name is Junis. I live in a town 35 miles from Kabul in Afganistan. I am doing a school project to see how many people can read an email in 30 days. Please forward this to everyone you know, and keep the headers intact.
Thank you, your pal,
Junis
P.S. I really like Jon Katz, he is great.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
We'd all love to read it.
[mod this up if you agree -- I'm at the cap anyway, so I'm not KW'ing]
for Dallas and Kojak reruns drove the shipbuilders of Gdansk to the barricades. Katz is our own Mrs. Malaprop.
illegitimii non ingravare
Way to tip off the world to the location of American special forces troops. Their blood is on your hands.
Idiot.
- Freed
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love." -Turkish Proverb
The threat of the 2nd Amendment to usurping politicians has always been much more potent to make politicians nervous about assassination than to fight the US armed forces. The Interior department was so heavy handed during the Clinton administration that they were seriously talking about certain areas being quite high risk in implementing their land use directives. Suddenly, everything calmed down as soon as Bush got in but a Gore administration would have probably lost some agents if they kept going in that direction
DB
Besides, according to Numerous sources the average salary in Afghanistan is on the order of $10-20 USD equiv per month.
I haven't felt this way before, but this is the first article I have really wanted to see withdrawn from slashdot. It scares me that a news orginization with the readership of its magnitude could post this crap.
-Sean
>>>>>>>>>Hey Jon, did
>>>>>>>>>>>the email have
>>>>>>>>>>a closing line
>>>>>>>>>kinda like my
>>>>>>>>>>subject line?
Fried ice cream is a reality. - George Clinton
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Really, if this guy is for real, get him to write an article about his experiences. See if you can get him a digial camera to take pictures, and some way to get them out of Afganistan. Even if you just give him a way to mail you the disk, it would be worth it.
The best thing in the world, for the world, is for people there to get their experiences out!
www.eFax.com are spammers
Junis, a computer geek obsessed with Linux, had first e-mailed me years ago while I was writing for Hotwired.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
This shows why it's imperative that the US promote free trade with China and every other nation not actively inimicable to us, and why it's completely unnecessary that we establish a pro-US government in Afghanistan; we merely need to remove the anti-US government and back off. Repeat as necessary.
If they aren't attacking our people, back off and leave 'em alone. If they are, destroy them, and let their people sort out the relacement themselves.
The best defense is a lack of enemies. That means don't create enemies, and once you have them, eliminate them.
1) click on "Preferences" on the upper right hand of the page
2) go to the "authors" column, check "JonKatz"
3) click "submit"
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
This guy from just outside of Kabul will get another rude, nasty surprise when he figures out that a C64 can't download or play movies from the Internet very well at all. Poor guy, he'll have to wait for them to get released in the video store or something.
"Look at me, I invented the stove!" -- Ben Franklin
Uh, I agree /. is not a normal news organization. But they play the part and they are certainly revered as such. Just because they don't have reporters doesn't mean they don't have responsibility to their millions of readers.
John says: "Junis, a computer geek obsessed with Linux, had first e-mailed me years ago while I was writing for Hotwired."
.af domain then yes, you could be suspicious, but if John has known this guy for years then he's in a better position to judge than we are.
If you got a random email from someone you've never heard of from a
Baz
I don't believe this for a moment. I hope Katz is above simply fabricating something like this, but I have no idea why he would just 'describe' the letter rather then reposting it here so we can all see for ourselves.
And as others mentioned, you can't download movies to a commodore, it just wont happen And he wouldn't have been able to do 'modern' programming on it for a long time. While I have heard reports of video stories and movie theaters opening back up, they're more likely to renting Indian and Pakistani films. Although I'm sure some people go for the American ones as well.
And comments about the iPod and Macs? Yeh, right. This sounds like more of a katzian fantasy to me. How would he even hear about the thing? And why would he want it rather then more reasonable mp3 players. After all, on a pure modem link he isn't going to be able to download movies.
And unless the northern alliance has managed to get DSL installed in the past few days, he isn't going to be downloading movies no matter what computer he has.
Katz if you have an journalistic credibility, post the actual message.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
did read the article, and thats why I find it odd that people could simply hide technology under the noses of the taliban so easily if they were sooo oppressive...
Um, if the stuff is *hidden* from the Taliban, how are they supposed to just destroy it? They did destroy everything they could--just look at those 1800 year old Buddha statues they blew up in March.
Sort of like the drug "war" in the US--according to your logic, the US government should be able to find drugs and get rid of them in a moment, even though they are right under their noses.
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
I'd love to believe this, but no.
Still, the guy must be brilliant - not only has he got a five year old Commodore to get onto the Apple site, with a five year old browser, over non-existent phone lines but he's planning on spending five years wages on an ipod too?
It's bollocks.
I've been to the area and know the sort of conditions. First up, if anyone is using email in Afghanistan it is not over the standard POTS. If much of that is still remaining, it is in no way any condition to get a data connection over. Internet connections in Afghanistan are satellite (Bin Laden's is, so are the Aid Agencies and the journalists). So unless our hero has a either a sat phone, or a 3ft dish in his back garden, I doubt he sent an email from anywhere in the area.
"Junis's e-mail -- routed to Kabul, then Islamabad, then London" is not the way it would go - if I remember correctly, the main Pakistani bandwidth goes via Singapore. Unless Katz means this email was sent to someone in Kabul who forwarded it to someone etc etc etc.
In which case I'd hazard a guess to say the first passing was on paper, not electronically.
Next, "Junis, a computer geek obsessed with Linux, had first e-mailed me years ago while I was writing for Hotwired. He was genial and obsessed with American culture. He loved martial arts movies, anything to do with Star Wars, and rap. He was perhaps the Taliban's prime kind of target. (Now he's furiously trying to download movies he's missed and is mesmerized by open source and Slashdot.)"
Well, Hotwired's URL was first registered on 21-Apr-1994, but Katz's first writings were on Netizen. That started in 1996. The Taliban took Kabul in 1996, so Junis must have been quick. Obsessed with Linux then, sure - but now mesmerized by open source?
Which brings us to I thought they were going to get Microsoft," he wrote. "I guess not."
How did he know of the court case? Meanwhile, where did he learn perfectly idiomatic English? "Get" Microsoft? I "guess not"?
Temptation Island? Survivor? Riight - an area that until a week ago was isolated from the rest of the world is now aware and anticipatory of a tv show that is not even being aired on a nearby satellite network?
I'd love to believe this, I really would. But it's smelly as all hell, not to mention the highly dubious "they did it all for the toys" politics.
Still, if JK posts the email, with the headers, I'll be happy to believe, and drink a toast to Junis and his friends.
((satire))
Cheers,
-- RLJ
if you're not getting the joke
Unless you were just being sarcastic, in which case I wholeheartedly agree with you...
Please read the title underneath the Slashdot logo.News for Nerds. Puh. Yeah, I definitely think the root post here needs some more attention. I agree. Jon Katz's posts have been specious before, but this is just utter bullshit. I call for a retraction and censure.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
reality is not in a book.
1984, for whatever insight it offered, wasn't anything more than a product of the imagination of Orwell.
Similarly, The Old Man and the Sea was nothing but a product of Hemingways mind.
Neither is any kind of authoritative guide on the human condition. They are both opinions and reflections of reality. You cannot use them to deduce anything more about human nature and/or 'spirit' than you could by watching 'Indiana Jones'.
A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
Make no mistake, the Taliban is a really vile group of people who are as bad as they are made out to be. But also don't make the mistake of thinking that the U.S. government would have cared about them, their treatment of their citizens or Afghanistan in general if it weren't for 9/11.
Please mod parent up. It just isn't right to rate this as flamebait.
Don't believe me? Just take a better look at some of our allies in the war against terrorism.
Could have been a Commodore AMIGA!! I think you can get online with one of those.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
If this is true then humanity is doomed! We deserve to be wiped out by the first alien race that happens upon us...that is if we don't do it to ourselves first.
You're using her as bait, Master!
yeah, and i didn't think that a bunch of farmers could beat the british army in the 1700s either, but i was apparently wrong.
That's slightly different--back then, the farmers and the british had basically the same weaponry--muskets. Yeah, the british had cannons, but so did we.
Now, a march with a bunch of people carrying rifles isn't quite a match agains F-15s, helicopter gunships, and cluster bombs.
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
only the Amish and Luddite freaks don't see the value of technology
On the surface, I agree with your comment: there's value present in the technology that is worth appreciating, no matter what your views are.
However, the implication that the Amish or others who choose not to adopt technology do not see the value or are freaks is offensive, dangerous, and probably flat out wrong.
It's my understanding that the Amish are not strictly against adopting technology. But they always check what adopting it will do to their economy, community, culture, and lifestyle. Then they make a decision.
Hence, you'll see community telephones/cellphones. It's really not all that unreasonable to note that technologies have benefits and secondary impacts (some of which are negative), and to choose acordingly. In reality, I think this is what a smart culture does.
You could, of course, argue that this makes them like the Taliban... screening new ideas and technologies to make sure nothing they don't like gets in. I think the difference is that the Amish don't use violence as a means of enforcing the conventions of their community, nor do they use force as a means of coercing people to stay. They are free to join another community with different standards if they want.
Libertarianism is rich wolves and poor sheep playing gambler's ruin for dinner.
Is it just me or does this whole thing seem made up? I mean if I had been asked in the 5th grade to "write a fictitional account of what you think the NOW somewhat free children would do since the meanies have left town..." I could have came up with something really similar to this.
Dear Slashdot: "I love this freedom thing. My day went something like this: I dug up my trusty old C64 to surf the web a bit and download movies. I then spent a few minutes getting caught up on kernal patches -- (man that Linus guy sure is fast). Next I thought I would watch a little baywatch and break out the old Madonna posters. Later on I got together with my friends to go grab a coke and sub at the local deli, and then we all go out and rent this months versions of the re-released star wars movies.....life again is good!"
THE END.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
I have to applaud the resourcefulnes of the Afgan programmers. Downloading and playing movies on a C64 sounds very difficult.
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
- Some taliban government official, quoted in an article on wired.com, summer 2001
"The internet interprets censorship and routes around it, although occasionally it takes a little longer and involves a bit more busting of heads than John Gilmore of the EFF might originally have imagined."
- Some guy in Afghanistan, November 2001.
They had several 8088-based PC's before they went under. :)
'Course his movies would be playing at about 1-fph (one frame per hour)... Worse torture than anything the Taliban ever came up with!
I spent some time in Uzbekistan this October for academic reasons. Uzbekistan is not the most advanced place on Earth, but it's still light years ahead of what's left of Afghanistan with regards to telecommunications infrastructure.
Now, in Uzbekistan I had quite trouble getting Internet access outside the larger cities such as Samarqand or Tashkent; in rural areas, where you've partly still got manually switched telephone lines, you can just about forget it. It's Soviet telecom infrastructure, basically.
So how on Earth is this guy supposed to have Internet access in rural Afganistan where you can't even take it for guaranteed that there's electricity or running water, let alone toilets or telecom infrastructure? (All of this experienced in southern rural Uzbekistan.)
So either this guy has a satellite phone and a generator hooked up to his ancient Commodore to download movies with, or he's in one of the rare villages with running telephone on a one-phone-per-village basis and continually occupies it for use with the 1200 baud acoustic coupler modem and his Commodore to download movies and inform himself about getting Linux on his Commodore, or this is just a hoax.
The sad thing is that it's such a primitive hoax in the first place - just like the "technology conquers all" nerd variation of the romantic patriotic young outlaw theme.
So unless I get to read the original e-mail including forward information some time soon, JonKatz goes down in the dumpster for me.
There is absolutely no reason to panic.
What business is it of ours how women are treated in Afghanistan?
Mankind is my business, and yours too. Enslave someone *anywhere*, and I have the moral right to stop you. Morality does not stop at national borders.
Ask orthodox Jews or the Amish if they'd like to be forced to "modernize", and see what they think!
The Taliban forced people to do things they didn't want to do. It's not like all of Afghanistan sat down and agreed, "OK, women stay at home, don't get schooling, and have to wear burqas." People with guns forced others to behave that way.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Whether Katz is being accurate and honest here is up for debate, but what I love is the incredulousness. Like:
.. it's imPOSSIBLE that he had those things, otherwise we might be forced to admit that the 'liberty' of being American really isn't that far off of many other places in the world. (Heck, do you really think a woman could be the president of the USA?)
.. no where did he say it was a 64
What?! He can download movies? He knew about the MS case? Baywatch? Damnit
At any rate, it's absolutely infuriating to see Americans so indignantly resolute in their assuption that Afganistan = Backwards = No One has a Clue What Goes On in the Real World. They were under an oppressive rule, and could be KILLED for simple things like using computers. That doesn't mean they sat around for 8 years with their thumbs up their asses, waiting for the Americans to get pissed off at their leaders, only to 'liberate' them into a world of higher pop culture conciousness. Sheesh. No doubt some Afgans secretly kept short wave radios. It's possible that some of the US Army commandos are providing satillite uplinks (just a guess, probably not). There are LOTS of reasons why Katz' story could be true.
When people talk about Americans being self-involved, this is what they are talking about! What bothers me is not whether Katz is being honest or not (and you don't really need to make up stories in times like this unless you're gunning for public support of military action or resctriction of civil liberties), but how people cannot ACCEPT things.
Shit, it's not like the entire population of Afghanistan ICQ'd Katz 2 minutes after the Taliban were driven south.
And Commadore made PCs
"Old man yells at systemd"
He's already made his way to some sex sites, and wishes he had a printer.
That was a little too much information for me...
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
You could, of course, argue that this makes them like the Taliban... screening new ideas and technologies to make sure nothing they don't like gets in. I think the difference is that the Amish don't use violence as a means of enforcing the conventions of their community, nor do they use force as a means of coercing people to stay. They are free to join another community with different standards if they want.
That was poor wording on my part. I therefore apologize to all the Amish that are reading this
The Amish also don't begrudge the rest of the world for choosing to adopt high technology. I have no quarrel with that attitude at all. I mean that the Luddite-types were the freaks, not the Amish.
If you want to compare any american institution to the Taliban, I would point at certain Southern Baptist and Pentacostal churches, for their intolerance and shortsighted absolutist doctrines.
He claims American commandos are skulking around dressed as Northern Alliance tribesmen.
Good thing that was just made public knowledge...
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Ummm DUH!, its a hoax, JUST LIKE THIS ONE IS... and yet I get moderated as "off-topic"... its laughable...
News for Nerds? try Krap for Kiddies
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
If you look at IBM's PCM site, they list 2 Commodore 286s and 4 Commodore 486s, and it's perfectly possible to upgrade a Commodore to some bastard Pentium chips. Of course he'd be limited to VESA video cards, probably, but it's completely possible to get Windows 95 running on one of those... or at least Linux.
GPL Deconstructed
Hi guys.
We've all been putting in long hours but we've really come together as a group and I love that. Big thanks to Omar for putting up the poster that says "There is no I in team" as well as the one that says "Hang In There, Baby." That cat is hilarious. However, while we are fighting a jihad, we can't forget to take care of the cave. And frankly I have a few concerns.
First of all, while it's good to be concerned about cruise missiles, we should be even more concerned about the scorpions in our cave. Hey, you don't want to be stung and neither do I so we need to sweep the cave daily. I've posted a sign up sheet near the main cave opening.
Second, it's not often I make a video address but when I do, I'm trying to scare the most powerful country on earth, okay? That means that while we're taping, please do not ride your razor scooter in the background. Just while we're taping. Thanks.
Third point, and this is a touchy one. As you know, by edict, we're not supposed to shave our beards. But I need everyone to just think hygiene, especially after mealtime. We're all in this together.
Fourth: food. I bought a box of Cheeze-Its recently, clearly wrote "Osama" on the front, and put it on the top shelf. Today, my Cheeze-Its were gone. Consideration. That's all I'm saying.
Finally, we've heard that there may be American soldiers in disguise trying to infiltrate our ranks. I want to set up patrols to look for them. First patrol will be Omar, Mohammed, Abdul, Akbar, and Richard.
Remember it, write it down, take a picture, I dont give a fsck!
Now the big question is WHY is the cost of living so high in the "Blue" areas? Could it be that you (we) are paying for those sophisticated items, and all the overhead that goes with them? I'd say yes
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
who had no net access!
no!
You betcha! But then he got net access
oh, well then. hoorah or something
and he liked linux
yay! that guy rocks
and he also visited some sex sites
uhm, isn't that kind of a weird thing to tell a reporter?
he liked open source stuff. especially us, and especially not microsoft
yay! that guy rocks
there's more than one way to do me.
What do you mean if?
So whats the deal? Katz is now a dupe of the man as well? Remember right after the 9/11 there was an email from muslim man circulating around the interenet? Yep.. Propaganda.
So while Katz is airing out his complete crap about *nothing* in particular, nothing but a heart warming tale spun to augment the beard shaving, women baring their faces, and the possiblility that MTV is coming to Kabul soon. Lets not forget the reality of the situation:
The Northern Alliance is a brutal regime as well. People welcomed the Taleban after being ruled by these losers.
On the homefront, the administration is taking power in sweeping gestures whose effects will leave us reeling for possibly fewgenerations.
Like the fancy stories you see above. People from the less fortunate countries in the world like Australia and Europe think our media is full of shit, and lying to us point blank.
But never fear, America is the home of the free. The best country in the world dude. And all that shit.
Anyway, just a reminder to use that search engine of yours and get the facts, see some other perspectives, especially now since Mr. Katz has obviously become a tool as well. Yeah maybe he was a tool before, but at least he had the power in his court to say something to Slashdot readers. I guess no more.
Actually, you kind proove my point. Being:
How do you (or I) actually know?
I guess your answer would be 'I do'.
Case closed,
QED
"Old man yells at systemd"
This is obviously a fake. Afghanis watching Baywatch? A Linux-Loving geek from Kabul? Where the heck did you people come up with this stuff?
Stupidity.inc?
Thank you! It's certainly good to get the perspective of a professionally trained journalist (as I know you are from your assertion that Katz's article does not constitute journalism).
;)
I would take serious issue with your suggestion that whether or not Katz's article raises issues that could be thought about or debated rests entirely on the legitimacy of an email from Afganistan!
It's really pretty shallow to suggest that the pervasiveness of technology, and the influence of American culture (in contrast to the influence of American bombs) is not an issue worthy of discussion. After all, its obvious that American culture and values (or lack thereof) is a major reason why al Queda and associates are so opposed to America. I think Katz definitely touches on the topic of American cultural imperialism here, among other things.
Numerous people have brought up the possibility that it's an Amiga, not a C64 (and there's no evidence to support either an Amiga OR a C64). As for bandwidth and electricity, I seriously doubt if anyone here on Slashdot has any clue what kind of capacity there is on the outskirts of Kabul (other than CNN-based guesses)... I know I don't.
And on your point that someone figured out that Junis responded to Katz while Katz was writing for Hotwired, then composed a hoax email, and forwarded to people in Islamabad who might forward to Katz (or spoofed the headers somehow), I can only say:
The helicopters are coming. Hide your guns and DO NOT DRINK THE WATER
- StaticLimit
The kid obviously has the first goat powered linux box on a C64.
First he gets the goat going on the treadmill that powers the dynamo. Then he takes each ip packet and writes it down, mails it, Katz types them in, gets the replies, writes them down, then mails them back whereupon this guy types them into his machine and voila! High speed goat-herder porn!
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Why would a starving people who are having their country bombed give a rat's ass about Temptation Island? I am guessing that this is some form of sick advertising attempt, where Katz gets paid by companies to plug their wares in his stories. Hey, I don't have to prove that, right?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Fiction is fiction, and by itself, that's fine. What's really wrong with this picture is that Jon Katz is using ficiton to justify a point about how great popular culture is. If the story is false, then the point is moot.
Cmdr. Taco must be rolling in his grave to see such fake jibberish being posted on slashdot.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
Some posters seem to think that this is a troll, or hoax rather than a real hacker, because it full of the classic signs of Social Engineering, false familiarity, overtly complementary, appeals to empathy, it's almost a classic.
I'll tell you what this old cynic thinks, this is a PysOp's plant not a troll.
According to CIA factbook...
1 The number of ISPs in Afghanistan (as of 2000)
NA The number of Internet users
10 The number of TV stations
100,000 The total number of TVs
14.7% The infant mortality rate
31% Literacy rate
$800 GDP per capita in 2000 (estimate)
Telephone system: general assessment: very limited telephone and telegraph service
domestic: in 1997, telecommunications links were established between Mazar-e Sharif, Herat, Kandahar, Jalalabad, and Kabul through satellite and microwave systems
international: satellite earth stations - 1 Intelsat (Indian Ocean) linked only to Iran and 1 Intersputnik (Atlantic Ocean region); commercial satellite telephone center in Ghazni
Sorry. What does voice RECOGNITION have to do with spying or making spying more popular? You still have to have a reason to target the person.
You also have to have a human to double-check the intelligence because no self-respecting cop is going to trust a computer over his own instincts.
They have the technology to follow me around from a satellite if they want, but why would they? They've got bigger fish to fry.
It seems for all this talk about the information age we still can't get in contact with people in a war zone like Afghanistan to get at least their opinion of the situation. I've been wanting to talk with the Afghani "man in the street(rubble?)since 911. In a situation like this how do you go about it? Was anybody able to get in touch with any Afghani Geeks?
> I'd think he'd be reading CNN.com
.. (well, geez, the guy has been LIVING CNN.com for the last 8 years, I think the last thing he need to know is what is going on in the world)
/I/ wouldn't do that!
/I/ can't believe that!
.. now THATS news. So, in this case, Afghan kid knows whats up in the world and wants an iPod. Thats NEWS, sadly enough, because it's unique. Interesting. I'm sure he did look at CNN.com, but is that news? Had he told that to Katz, Katz probably wouldn't have even mentionned it. (In fact, whos to say that he didn't?)
.. if you're so intent on surmising that anything out of your social norm is probably untrue, that's why you'll be standing still why the rest of the world flies by ya. You're not commenting on your neighbour down the street here.
I really can't believe you can't see the difference between imposing your cultural/social/financial/etc context and values on someone else, only to use it as evidence that the story is unplausible. I'm not going to argue this
Also, consider that what he said he wants is heavily affected by who he's talking to. Katz used to work for wired; its only natural that Junis would want to diplay his 'withitness' to a former wired journalist.
You see, you're only furthur proving my point, by placing your values, prioties and experiences over a world so far removed from yours that any attempt to judge is viewed by some people from other countries as completely self involved.
The point is, everyone seems to be disproving Katz with evidence along the lines of:
1.
2.
See, dog bites man happens every day, so it's not news. But dog bites man
ARG. Just comment on the story
"Old man yells at systemd"
If you need to become a police state to enforce the law, then the law is unjust.
...and...
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
A few cliches aren't grounds for justifying war alone, but while we take "inalienable rights" for granted, the idea is very new and strange to undeveloped countries.
What got us into this mess was that we used Afghanistan as a tool against the Soviet Union and then abandoned it once they were defeated. I think we have a moral responsibility to fix what we broke, at the very least.
To the operators of Slashdot:
/. community and the reputation of this site.
1.) Please remove this article at once. It is a filthy assortment of random lies and is an embarrassment to the
2.) Please strongly consider firing Jon Katz for his lack of journalistic integrity. Better yet, decide via a Slashdot poll.
3.) A major improvement to Slashcode would be a system by which readers can moderate the posting of articles on the main page.
That being said, I am all for the overthrow of the Taliban regime and the restoration of the rights and freedoms of the Afghan people.
This, however, should be the last straw. Please, pull John Katz off Slashdot. This story is ridiculous to the point of being scary. Katz has made an ass of himself - don't let him do the same thing to the site.
This post will probably be modded down so as to sanitize the discussion (Off topic or Flamebait is anything that constructively criticizes Slashdot, along with the rest of the troll content), and so will many other that are trying to make a valid point. But just remember one thing:
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
This is one of the reasons Hollywood is so smart. They know that it does not pay to make too complicated a plot, because, if they do, the film will not play well in Tokyo. I learnt this lesson the hard way. I came to the US from Britain. For some reason, PBS stations seem to think that Britain's "best" exports are "Keeping Up Appearances" and "Are You Being Served?". For me, that is deeply humiliating.
It doesn't always work out that way. I, probably like most other USians, consider Britain's "best" TV export to be "Monty Python". This, despite the fact that MP is very smart, and very British.
Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
Well you could look at it from a different approach. If the Afghan women wanted freedom and equal rights that badly then they would have made more of a fuss about it. The people are responsible for the actions of their government. Repeat after me...
A civilization is responsible for the actions of their government.
If the people where feeling repressed then they would have done something about it by now. I'm sure there is a minority that is oppressed but if widescale oppression was rampart the the general populace would have done something about it long ago. Its not a popular view, but one I think runs true.
What you and I call "enslavement", Afghans call "respect".
You can call a pile of bat guano filet mignon if you want to, but I'm still not going to eat it.
Anyway, you can't even stop me from "enslaving" my wife if I lived next door to you, as long as I don't break any laws.
Sure I can. I can choose to try and get her out of there, just like Harriet Tubman and the Underground Railroad did back when slavery was legal in this country. Did the law make slavery moral? Like hell.
How can you expect to Americanize these people halfway across the globe?
It seems to me like we've already started doing exactly that. "Americanize" is your term, not mine, but if you mean eliminating repression, yes, we already *have* done a lot of that.
You have no rights not given to you by your nation of residence.
Here we're getting into a terminology argument. As TJ wrote, we are "endowed with certain inalienable rights". As such, our government does not give us or take away rights, it can merely guarantee them or violate them. On the other hand, the Federalists gave an enumeration in the Bill of Rights. In that context, rights are specified in law. So talking about rights becomes a terminology discussion. I'd rather discuss moral/immoral.
Do you agree that slavery, regardless of where it occurs, is immoral? If not, I posit you're a nihilist, and thus anything goes anyway; arguing we don't have a right to do X posits that there is a universal morality, which contradicts your assertion of localized morality.
There has never been an election in Saudi Arabia either.
Yup, and it's a pretty repressive place with immoral leaders. I would be morally right to free its people from such repression. That doesn't mean I have to throw my life away futilely. Just because you can't do something to stop immoral behavior doesn't make it moral, just unstoppable.
Democracy is not for everyone.
Just because we can't stop all repression doesn't mean we can't (or shouldn't) stop some, or pressuring governments to reduce repression.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
the average salary in Afghanistan is on the order of $10-20 USD equiv per month.
Whenever you see such stats, you always have to ask some other questions like: "what do things cost?" and "how important is the money economy over there?". Odds are the answers are "not much" and "not very" or some combination thereof.
If you are a Taliban, you were, until very recently, well fed. The food, weapons, and a little money were coming from outside. A lot of it is black market. Do you think these opium traders with mules loaded down with stash and AK-47s are reporting their incomes to the IMF and the UN, or whoever it is compiles the statistics?
Well, you know what they say about statistics...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that life in the 3rd world isn't a turd sandwich. I'm just saying that there is some lettuce on that sandwich we don't see.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
But many of you seem to be missing a point. Taliban did not ban internet or any other tech toys at first, they did this banning thingies after they controlled much of the afganistan and only gradually after that. IIRC internet was one of the last things on the ban list (presumably it was not very accessible anyway)
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
People all over the planet fuss about whether this healthy and democratic or corrupting and dehumanizing,
American culture is all of those things.
The tidal wave of American culture is frightening and Borg like.
As long as it is seen this way, reactionary forces will gain support from the many who watch with despair as traditional culture and values developed over many centuries are replaced within a generation with what comes over satellite television from America.
It's too bad we're incapable of giving the Afghans freedom, democracy and human rights without simultaneously injecting a huge dose of consumerism laced with appeals to lust and violence.
Oh well, I suppose I can't fault the rest of the world for falling into the same traps that my fellow Americans have for decades. Don't like it? Don't watch it.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
They have the technology to follow me around from a satellite if they want, but why would they? They've got bigger fish to fry.
... DOH!
That's the point, with new technology they can fry all the fish. Traffic analysis, vacuum cleaner information gathering. Collect them all, and let the database sort them out.
Here's the kind of thing that could happen: Intellegence could find out that I've gotten copies made at BestCopy in Toronto (credit card) which was connected with Bin Laden, Bonk! My security risk karma gets a +1. So more automatic tests get run. Maybe I made a phone call to the next-door neighbour of a gun-runner, Bonk! I've mentioned gun-powder on Usenet, Bonk! I associate with the notorious Keith Henson, charged with threatening $cientology with weapons of mass-distruction, Bonk! And so it goes... Wider and wider searches that find possible and maybe connections.
The trouble with systems that collect everything is that there will be a temptation to automatically create profiles, and if it's not done right, some innocent person's security risk karma could max out -- and we're weakening the rules on innocent until proven guilty.
Sounds it sounds paranoid, but security agencies are paranoid by nature, and have to look at possibles and maybes.
If you want an excellent look at what a paranoid "knows everything" system would be like, the best I've read is Sam Hall by Poul Anderson. Hard to find short story, but well worth the search!
Luckly I paid cash at BestCopy so they'll never know
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
They will tolerate USA interference for a short while to drive out the greater evil. Stay too long, and they'll be shooting at US soldiers too.
They intensely hate the foreign components of the Taliban. Arabs and Pakistani Taliban who couldn't escape were summarily executed. Only Afgan Taliban were are being imprisoned.
(I could have sworn I wrote a response to this, but it appears to have vanished, or perhaps I forgot to hit submit while at home).
I suppose it wasn't actually South Florida, but Central. I was going down the West Coast from Tampa to the Everglades and heard virtually nothing but preachers.
In another Florida trip, I inhabited Palm Beach Gardens, went to Miami every weekend, and really loved it. I have to admit that I really loved the high-energy atmosphere in Miami, especially when tempered by the occasional Everglades boat trip. A cool place to live indeed.
D
Fair enough, but I think you must admit, it's orders of magnitude better than Are you being served? My only point was, intelligent, culture-specific entertainment can be successfully exported to other cultures. It isn't necessarily required to appeal to the lowest common denominator (although that often happens, of course).
Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
It's ridiculous that Katz should take this at face value, or that /. editors would pass this on without comment. The minor effort required to check even one of the outlandish "facts" in this piece would have been worth some effort.
This is really sad. I've been after Katz to look at his journalistic basics since the day he decided that ABC TV was "wrong" when they used a hidden camera, wielded by a paid undercover operative, to show Red Lion supermarkets selling rotten meat.
He claimed that it was "unethical" to get a job at Red Lion with a falsified job app, even if you already knew potentially lethal poison was being sold to people.
At the time he was celebrating a decision (later overturned) that would have hog-tied such investigative practices.
He doesn't understand the basic debt that a journalist owes his readers, and probably never will. One can only hopes that he takes this embarassment as a lesson.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
I wouldn't rely on information from the CIA World Factbook too much. The problem is mainly that it relies heavily on government sources. You can see this when you compare, for example, the literacy ratings for various countries. Most ex-Soviet countries are listed with 99 or near 99 percent, for example, which is a relic from Soviet times where they claimed the literacy rate to be 100%; they do have excellent literacy, but it's not quite that excellent. Now what sources did they have for Afghanistan? Do they list them anywhere? Are they credible?
Another problem is that some figures are pretty difficult to estimate. Consider "Internet users", for example. For Uzbekistan, for example, it lists 42 ISPs and 7500 Internet users. How on earth did they get that number? What constitutes an "Internet user"? How do they count Internet cafés which are really widespread in the cities of poorer countries, for example? Is an Internet café a single Internet user, or do they count the 100 or 200 regular café users individually? In the first case, the figure means nothing at all, in the second, it's plain wrong from personal experience.
Also, you never know precisely when they collected their data, which, in telecommunications or computing, does make quite a bit of a difference.
In general, be as careful with the CIA factbook as with any other source. In spite of the label, it does not only contain accurate facts, and the label "CIA" does not necessarily imply correctness of information.
There is absolutely no reason to panic.
Commodore PCs ran as high as 486-66s.
Install a bastard Pentium Overdrive, and you have a 100 to 120MHz machine, *maybe*, possibly.
Bump up the ram to 32mb... and you can install Windows95. You can trivially install Linux.
You can play mp3s, if barely, on a 486. You can play mpeg1 movies on a Pentium, but it would drop frames and take a bit of space. On the other hand, if they have low res low quality version, maybe it's not a big deal anyway.
GPL Deconstructed
Just like the guy in the story, I am curently typing in the dark without a Phone Line, Power or Food in the middle of Afghanistan! its amazing what this little commadore can do after being burried in chickenshit for the last 5 years!
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
Checking the facts upon which one's articles are based is a basic tenet of journalism, and all the evidence indicates that Katz has violated this. That is the premise upon which I base my assessment of Katz's capabilities as a journalist. The very fact that he posted something so questionable without a clearer explanation of the source or context, even if it is real, is poor journalism.
Certainly, Katz might yet produce evidence backing up his suspicious story. Like others here, I am eager to see that, and will certainly post an apology in the unlikely event that I am wrong.
I was wrong about one thing, though: Katz's latest blunder was clearly not beyond any possibility of defense, since you are defending it. I respect your trusting attitude, but I think you are very likely to be proved wrong. This has nothing to do with conspiracy theories, and everything to do with basic factual contradictions. I think the most likely theory is that Katz simply got carried away and exaggerated something beyond what could be sustained by the facts he had access to.
well, that's what I get for assuming things, sorry.
But, look at most any military and the prime method of motivation is to take a not-so-thoughtful young person (why do you think they like them straight out of high school) and to feed them BS about how evil the enemy is, (I mean, inherently evil, not just opposed to us), and then give him a gun and tell him where to shoot. By the time you're done with your propaganda he's so enraged that he doesn't care about the enemy's culture or how they're just people like us that look different, he just wants to kill.
Teaching diversity will alleviate this, except - surprise! - last generation's soldiers have kids, and they get taught at home not to believe any of that "tolerance crap". Fear of their parents keeps them from internalizing the values of globalism. For each war, repeat one iteration.
When you have a war every generation, like we've had for the last 150 years or so, then a whole hell of a lot of intolerance gets passed down.
Yes, I've seen it, I'm from the south.
So, in the end the whole exercise of globalism is a waste of time, but I guess it's the thought that counts.
It may not be any business of yours, but I'm making it my business. You can try to stop me, but you won't do so with words.
If your only issue is whether the people in these places want change, that's an easy question to answer: they do, go visit one of these countries sometime and ask.
If you were truly correct that the people in these societies liked the conditions they lived under, it would be a different matter. The fact is, though, most of them don't; however, brutal police states, corrupt governments, and lack of resources stops most of them from doing anything about it.
I've travelled and lived in Africa, and travelled in the Middle East, and what you often see is similar to what used to happen in the Soviet Union: people do the things people do anyway, if they can get away with it, but they do it underground and at serious risk to their lives and freedom. You may not care about this, but having lived in environments like this, I do.
And, despite your belief that "putting our nose in somebody else's business" got us into this, one can make a credible argument for the opposite being true: the U.S. has remained too hands-off in its foreign policy, only getting involved when it has a clear, direct strategic interest in a particular situation. The reasons for this foreign policy date back to World War II and Vietnam. However, this may not be in the the US's own interest. It means that from the point of view of people in other countries, US involvement is capricious and unpredictable, leading to resentment when the US does or doesn't get involved in a situation where others think it should or shouldn't.
A policy based more clearly on things like human rights interest could actually go a long way towards improving America's reputation in the rest of the world, and would not necessarily cost significantly more money, since America could certainly get international backing and cooperation for such a policy.
It's not as simple as that. Do you have the right to e.g. punish someone that thinks he/she is doing the right thing, no matter what organisation, religion or culture that person belongs to?
You don't have the right to force someone to do (or don't do) something unless that other person "agrees" (has the same cultural, religious or ethnic backround, or lives in the same country and abides to the same laws).
I think things like for example the U.N. declaration of the human rights are good things, but some other things don't simply have global validity. You take them for granted, like double glased windows, central heating, universities without fees, and taking your shoes off when going indoors (I'm a Swede), but everyone else does not. You can't enforce things like that, not even the U.N. declaration of human rights, on anyone.
Enforcing a way of life upon someone is wrong. It is a violation of the integrity of the other person. It is denying everything that the other person is.
I'm not saying it's wrong to stop people hurting each other. I'm saying it's way wrong to call it your moral right to do so, because morality is not global.
And don't forget: The conflict in Aghanistan exists because of American foreign policy, because of economics, because of oil. Prove me wrong.
5000 people is a small prise to pay to ensure that ones interests in the middle east are not jeopardised. Don't come talking about moral, because moral is nothing.
It's 11pm, do you know what your deamons are up to?
I certainly wouldn't mind seeing some evidence, but I do think that in general, the Katz series of articles tend to be designed more towards provoking debate and seeding ideas than toward investigative reporting. It's a piece about the power of technology, not a master's thesis on broadband in Kabul with footnotes. I may be too trusting, but I don't think that Jon presents an entirely implausable scenario. How could this be proven if it were in fact true? Would email message headers do it? I doubt it.
;).
The way I see it, sufficient proof would be full email headers, substantiating email from each member of the forwarding chain, photos of the much ballyhoo'd Commodore (preferably playing a downloaded copy of The Phantom Edit), and ISP records proving that movies could be (and had been) downloaded on the outskirts of Kabul. Or alternatively, I guess a video interview with the dude in Afganistan might suffice, though it's not like Jon can just hop on a flight to Kabul (unless he enlists in the special forces
Frankly, that's a pretty heavy burden of evidence to place on any journalist and especially here on Slash-(We'll post obvious product advertising literature sent from company email addresses)-dot. I'd be curious what sort of evidentiary standard reporters are generally held to at upstanding newspapers and magazines.
Screw on-topic! Let's start a thread...
What is reasonably required to back up a journalist's story? And especially here on Slashdot (Katz, Taco, rest-of-crew feel free to chime in [unlikely]... or mod down [more likely])
- StaticLimit
I won't comment on the nature of the email itself, which is obviously a hoax (and a bad one at that), but I am in contact with a friend who's been in Peshawar for a little over six months now, so I thought I could shed some light on some of the questions that the thread generated. She's been sending me regular reports (about once a month) about her life there, and of course, the topic has greatly changed since 9/11.
She was evacuated to Pakistan for a few weeks and she's now back in Peshawar, where she works for an ONG.
The Internet exists in Afghanistan, and the Talibans could never eradicate it completely. There are a limited number of Internet cafes in University Town (very deserted right now but this will change when Torkham opens again). The sessions are very cheap (about 20 roupies) and the bandwidth is of course very limited, but they seem to offer the minimal needed to send emails.
A lot of the Internet cafes have booths and are mostly used for porn, as are some of the few movie theaters left open. In those, the beginning of the movie is usually Taliban-related and it switches after a few minutes to the juicy stuff.
That's it for now, I can elaborate if there's interest.
So the `story' is `metaphoric' or `symbolic', is it? No, it's not. It's bullshit. It's been professionally prepared to influence your opinions, feelings and reactions, and its intended effect is to pacify you while you're being repressed in your own country, it is only peripherally about Afghanistan.
Firstly, I would just like to congratulate the author: this story is the most transparent example of propaganda I've been privileged to see.
Something over a million people are at risk of starvation in Afghanistan because of the US' air invasion but little Timmy has never had it so good because of the magic of western technology and baywatch?
The intent of whoever writes propaganda is to appeal to our prejudices (technology good, food is something you get out of the fridge.) In this case, we are distracted from any issues that we might conceivably do something about. Its overt project here is to pacify the readers.
In that first aim, it has largely failed: good propaganda hooks straight into deeply held beliefs and anxieties, and bypasses the critical faculties, it seeks a direct emotional effect, which in this case (due to the overdeveloped critical faculties of computer weenies) it has not directly achieved.
Look at the subtext, though, look at what's not being said directly, think of it as a fable, or a just-so story: ``Technology thrives even through the most repressive regime. Little Timmy kept the spirit of innovation and connectedness alive even through 5 years of political and social repression.''
Consider, for a moment, that you geeks in the US, and probably we geeks on the periphery, are witnessing exactly the kind of erosion of civil liberties that the Taliban would approve of, and in the same cause (godless heathens at the gates, pull the wagons in a circle, accept arbitrary rule to preserve your culture.)
Consider the buried message in this piece of propaganda: If little Timmy could survive the Taliban by burying his C64 in chickenshit, then surely *I* can survive the radical restrictions of a US at `war', the GW Putsch, the suppression of free speech, by just keeping my head down - burying my processing power under the warm pile of steaming chickenshit which is JKatz's story.
Hell, I can even download porn and videos under martial law. Good deal! Where do I sign?
"There are four boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order." Ed Howdershelt
It turns out that the "plans" for nuclear (read 'Nukular' in Bushspeek) weapons they discovered in Taliban hideouts may have been based on a scientific parody magazine (and subsequently distributed via the internet):
y 2. php
."
.The chain reaction then promptly produces
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0147/ridgewa
WASHINGTON, D.C.-Suddenly, Al Qaeda doesn't look so smart. Just
yesterday, a Times of London reporter found a cache of plans, left in
a Kabul home as the Taliban retreated, that included notes for making
a thermonuclear device. The papers sent a chill through the Western
world, since they appeared to indicate sophisticated designs for an
atom bomb.
Now the online Daily Rotten says at least part of those documents
photographed by the Times are taken verbatim from a "semi-famous"
pseudo-document that has been circulating on the Internet for years.
It's a reprint of a scientific parody called "How to Build an Atom
Bomb," from the geek-humor newsletter Annals of Improbable Research,
originally known as the Journal of Irreproducible Results.
In his report for the BBC, reporter Anthony Loyd held some of the
papers up for the camera, giving a glimpse of documents the Daily
Rotten now compares to the 1979 parody.
Even the language Loyd uses to paraphrase the abandoned material
sounds like that of the satirical document.
Describing the scene in a Times article, Loyd wrote: "The vernacular
quickly spun out of my comprehension but there were phrases through
the mass of chemical symbols and physics jargon that anyone could
understand, including notes on how the detonation of TNT compresses
plutonium into a critical mass producing a nuclear chain reaction and
eventually a thermo-nuclear reaction . . .
The parody document reads: "The device basically works when the
detonated TNT compresses the Plutonium into a critical mass. The
critical mass then produces a nuclear chain reaction similar to the
domino chain reaction . . .
a big thermonuclear reaction. And there you have it, a 10 megaton
explosion!"
To find these faux atomic-bomb plans, do a Web search for "The device
basically works" or "Let's Build an Atomic Bomb!" instructs the Daily
Rotten. "It gives us pause and joy to know the Taliban are wasting
their time downloading what amounts to joke mail and spending time
trying to discern the facts therein."
Homeland security secretary Tom Ridge acknowledged the plans had been
found, but downplayed their importance. With this Daily Rotten report,
the public may get a glimpse of why.
Reached at the Pentagon spokesperson Major Tim Blair said, "I can't
comment on that. You can find all kinds of reports, and you have to
look at which ones are credible. We issue briefings and press
releases, but we don't talk about anything dealing with intelligence.
I'm not throwing stones, but the media should check the credibility of
their sources. You all have to do your job."
The foreign editor who handled the story for the Times was not
immediately available for comment.
--
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
Do you realize that you're contradicting yourself? You're telling other people that it's wrong to tell other people what to do. Funny funny!
According to your own statement, as a Swede you have no right to tell Americans not to interfere in Afghani relations.
Many other arguments could be made againt your position, but it's disproved itself already, so I'll spare you the details.
That's an overstatement, but it's kind of my point. The reason people want to move to America is because it offers a relatively high degree of religious, economic, and political freedom. But America props up governments which don't allow this, to suit its oil interests (e.g. Saudi Arabia), and fosters internal rebellion when it harms their enemies (Afghanistan and the Soviet Union), but it doesn't necessarily actually help to improve the situation in the countries it ostensibly "helps". In more recent years, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, policy has improved, but it still ultimately derives from a time when the US's policy goals were very different. It needs revamping, and time and again it has been demonstrated that isolationism and non-involvement are not the answer.
Actually, I think the direction in which U.S. policy is now developing is positive - some of the things I'm talking about are being more actively considered, such as the establishment of a stable government in Afghanistan. This is based on experience with mistakes in the past.
It depends how you define it. For example, the US had United Nations support for the actions against Iraq after the invasion of Kuwait, and NATO support (at least) for Kosovo. Perhaps you're suggesting that this support was not sufficiently great, financially or in terms of military resources provided. However, if the U.S. had a clearer policy that went beyond its own direct interests, it would more easily be able to obtain real support from other countries.
Note that going beyond the "direct interests" of the U.S. doesn't necessarily imply being purely humanitarian or altruistic. Rather, it recognizes that these issues are complex and intertwining, and can have very long-term implications. It may be unwise to take too narrow a view based only on the most obvious short-term payoff or lack thereof.
... this is a ridiculous concoction. Digging up a computer after it's been buried 4-5 years? Um, even leaving a computer in a hot trunk all weekend can cause it to fry ... 4-5 years of climate changes, dirt, moisture ???? Watching video on a Commodore computer? Correct me if I'm wrong, but an "ancient" Commodore is not even as powerful as a gameboy or an old HP scientific calculator. And internet access - from a string tied between two empty bean tin cans?
Katz, either you are (A) purposely perpetrating a propaganda fraud or (B) so fucking clueless that you would buy into a hoax email and trot it out as a feature story or (C) got your dates confused and thought it was April 1 today but that would be a sick joke ...
That does it ... as soon as I post this, I'm going to set my /. preferences to filter out all "stories" by Katz. If I want Cinderella tales or bedtime stories, I'll go see the new Harry Potter movie ...
AZspot
I think Marley's Ghost said it best:
Besides, it's not as simple as know-nothings such as yourself would have it. Try looking into conditions for women in Afghanistan before the Taliban arrived before issuing pronouncements on what they'd choose for themselves given the chance.And the brethren went away edified.
It just said he was 'trying to download movies'
I can try all day to drive 100mph in my Daihatzu handivan, but it doesn't mean I can.
The SBS World Guide is pretty good.
It's a service of the Australian SBS broadcasting network, a multi-ethnic/cultural/language & world news network. Its owned by the Australian govt & is a sister network to the ABC, Australia's equilivent to the BBC.
Since this article got pulled, I think it only fair that Katz's article be left out in the open. ;)
Seastead this.
I'd be willing to bet that the U.S. forces in Kabul have seriously increased the amount of Internet Accessibility in the general area - I KNOW for a FACT, that there had been relatively widespread internet access in *.AF in the time of the gulf war, as I had several contacts in that area, during that point in time.
It's likely that the U.S. forces have restored access to the area in a relatively short period of time - even the military boys like the Internet.
"Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
Well... the subject line says it all.
/. setup.
I am always more than willing to listen to opposing opinions (even if there are really far off mine).
But this time Katz has gone a tad bit too far. I'll exclude his stories in my
Using the current dramatic situation for cheap careering moves is just too far off my moralic imprint...
+++ath0
I don't argue that it's that bad.
My position is that I'm not willing to do anything about it in the arena that it must be address (the legal system), so I'm not going to bitch about it.
By the same token, all this braying and whining just makes you look like a paranoid ass if you're not somewhere DOING something about it.
Why wait? They'll be happy to take your money right now, today!.
You can probably even do it online.
Afghanistan is made of of many different groups who have opposing views. They are divided hence easy to conquer.
When someone has a gun to your head are you still not the people? How can you be responsible for the actions of your government if violence and your death is the only way to fight back?
Repeating your comment might brainwash some but it will not help the starving people of Afghanistan. I guess it is easy to brush off others problems and get on with your life by looking at things with such a simple approach. Unfortunatley without a voting booth this just doesn't work for these people.
I was out of town yesterday and didn't get to read all of these posts till last nite.. Thanks for them..Some responses:
l. Yes, I am quite certain I haven't been had. Junis has been e-mailing me since my Hotwired days, and if he unveiled a plot to deceive me, it's pretty complex and worthy of Le Carre. Lots of people posting are pretty assertive opinions about e-mail from Kabul, but as is often the case with people who know nothing, they are the most enthusiastic about demonstrating it. Many individuals, agencies, foreign and domestic in Afghanistan have been on the Net through the conflict and getting online is not a huge deal with the relatively affluent middle-class survivors around Kabul. I am quite confident about Junis's identity (but for obvious reasons, don't want to dwell on it), and that his e-mail is also genuine.
2. Some of you have kindly offered to send money. He didn't ask for any and doesn't want any.
3. A huge number of people have e-mailed me asking if he might do a Q and A..I'm sure he would, and I think it's a great idea. I'll try and set it up.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
First off, here's the UN declaration of Human Rights, for anybody that's interested.
That said, here is the difference: an Amish or Orthodox Jewish Woman in the US or Canada or Sweden (or Israel or any democratic free country) can choose wether or not to observe their religion.
OK, but what about China or Saudi Arabia, or rural India, or Indonesia, or on and on and fucking on. The above document is bullshit. For instance:
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
Not if you live in a monarchy, like about 1/8 of the world's population! Even Denmark has a king (uh...I think...), which renders that statement retarded.
However, any woman who does not want to should be able to choose not to.
Just like I should be able to choose whether to allow my balls to swing freely from the zipper of my jeans. Unfortunately (fortunately for everyone else), that would violate (this part is important) the local standards for decency. Exchange "balls" for "anything", "jeans" for "burqa", and "I" for "women of most mid-east countries", and you'll see what I'm saying.
We aren't forcing anything but the freedom to choose on opposed people.
I'll assume you mean "oppressed" here. My point is that you can't even force choice on anyone. Some peoples (intentional plural) have decided that they would rather go to heaven than wear shorts, or even allow their wives to wear shorts. That is their business. For the most part, even Muslim women feel the same way. Islam was not born on the backs of an army, but born in the words of someone considered to be a prophet from God.
If you fall off a building, go real limp, because maybe you'll look like a dummy and people will be like hey, free dummy
Post the e-mail this guy sent you. Feel free to conceal his real name and e-mail address if you see fit. But post the e-mail, with full headers, so we can see that you're not pulling this all out of thin air.
--
The real Raunchola isn't cool enough to have any imposters
Speaking as an orthodox Jew, I think you're a little off base when you compare our treatment of women with that of extremist muslim governments.
Of course I am, or that sentence would have started "Speaking as an extremist Muslim...". I was close, though, in that Jewish women are treated differently than Jewish men, and that's part of how you worship God.
If you fall off a building, go real limp, because maybe you'll look like a dummy and people will be like hey, free dummy