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CA Court: Message Boards Are Opinions, Not Facts

Posted by chrisd on from the special-rights-for-special-people dept.

Masem writes: "According to this Newsbytes story, a CA appeals court has issued a ruling that says that typical messages posted to internet message boards can not be considered as libel or slander, as they inheritently are framed as opinions and not as statements of fact. The case stems from rather negative comments posted by defendants about a computer reseller company on the internet; the company sued for libelous comments; lower courts did initially rule for the company, but the appeals court has overturned this. While not every message posted in a public forum is safe, the court's decision seems to convey that unless the message is framed as a form of fact, then any message posted to a public internet forum should be considered as opinion, and thus cannot be considered as a libelous comment."

86 of 297 comments (clear)

  1. Thank heavens! by peacefinder · · Score: 3, Troll

    Well, that should relieve everyone on Slashdot no end! :)

    --
    With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
    1. Re:Thank heavens! by Purificator · · Score: 2, Funny

      worth changing my signature over.

      still, it's only california. there are, what, like twenty more states?

      --
      "Mister Potato-head --MISTER POTATO-HEAD! Backdoors are not secrets!" (War Games, 1983)
  2. hehe... by TechnoVooDooDaddy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    why am i suprised every time a court makes a ruling that makes sense?

    seriously, good work there in CA...

    1. Re:hehe... by ChazeFroy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually an interesting aspect of this ruling is what if somebody posts confidential intellectual property or illegal material to a message board...DeCSS for example?

    2. Re:hehe... by optikSmoke · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah......something like:


      It is my opinion that the following code might unlock DVDs: (Insert DeCSS code here)

      I'd like to see someone try that one!

  3. Yipee! by Phoenix · · Score: 2, Funny

    Now we can really bash who the heck we want with no fear of reprisals...as long as we don't say anything to make anyone think that we're stating a fact.

    Bill Gates Beware [insert evil grin here]

    --
    -- Wiccan Army, 13th Airborne Division "We will not fly silently into the night"
  4. New disclaimer: by rjamestaylor · · Score: 5, Funny
    "Comments are owned by the Poster."

    Change to

    "Comments are Opinions owned by the Poster."
    Besides, the best defense may just be, "Hey, this is Slashdot -- you were expecting facts?"

    ;-)

    --
    -- @rjamestaylor on Ello
    1. Re:New disclaimer: by Bonker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      +5 Funny, yes, but damned good advice all the same. Are you listening, Taco?

      Changing the line to something like

      "All comments are the opinions of the owner and not the property of Slashdot"

      might just save you a world of grief down the line.

      --
      The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
    2. Re:New disclaimer: by interiot · · Score: 2
      • "The ruling does not mean everything you say on a message board is protected," she said.
      Thus, Taco can't really put that at the bottom, because the court can rule that a post is presented in such a way as to be more factual, and therefore still subject to libel or slander laws.
    3. Re:New disclaimer: by rjamestaylor · · Score: 2
      You didn't quote the entire sentence:
      "The ruling does not mean everything you say on a message board is protected," she said. "But, generally, a lot of that talk is along the lines of, 'this stock sucks,' or 'this management sucks.' The Riverside Court said to determine if something is fact or opinion, you must examine the context."
      If the "context" is framed (that's what the disclaimer does; frames the context unambiguously) then this ruling does, in fact, apply.

      Besides, almost every post satisfies the second test: "this xxx sucks", etc.

      --
      -- @rjamestaylor on Ello
    4. Re:New disclaimer: by rjamestaylor · · Score: 2
      Good point. The next version of slash needs to add the following line, similar to the current "actual URL" feature current, after each post:
      [in my opinion]
      For example:
      the managers suck because they kill old ladies and sell their grandchildren into slavery [in my opinion]
      --
      -- @rjamestaylor on Ello
    5. Re:New disclaimer: by TekPolitik · · Score: 4, Informative
      If the "context" is framed (that's what the disclaimer does; frames the context unambiguously) then this ruling does, in fact, apply.

      The content can counter the disclaimer depending on form. For example, if you say "John Doe raped Jane Bloggs", that will be read as an attempt to state facts rather than an opinion. On the other hand, if you say "I believe John Doe raped Jane Bloggs", it's probably a statement of opinion put together with the disclaimer. If you say "Jane Bloggs was raped. In my opinion, the most likely culprit is John Doe", then the disclaimer isn't even necessary.

      You need to be careful though - in the United States, opinion is absolutely protected in the same way truth is protected, because "there can be no such thing as a false opinion." Here in New South Wales, opinion has unqualified protection under the Defamation Act 1974 (NSW) s32. But on the Internet you need to make sure that the web site you publish on is in a jurisdiction that has this unqualified protection of opinion, but as long as it's in such a jurisdiction, and you make no attempt to limit the persons who access your web site, a defendant in another jurisdiction won't be able to touch you, even under their local laws (Kostiuk v. Braintech (1999) 171 DLR (4d) 46).

      You also need to make sure that when making comment you provide the statement of fact that backs it up. For example, if you say "Joe is a person incompetent to hold a position as a public official", you might be nailed in some places. On the other hand, if you say "Joe cannot read. A person who cannot read is incompetent to hold a position as a public official", the provided it's true that Joe can't read, your OK (in fact in this case you'd be OK most anywhere in the English speaking world).

      It's best to make it absolutely clear what part is opinion (or "comment" in defamation terms) and what parts are facts when you're saying something you know somebody might claim is defamatory. This is critical (although less so in the US) - failure to make clear the separation between facts and comments can kill the "fair comment" defence. In some jurisdictions you also have to prove your facts, so it's better to say "I received this email which purports to be from X and says Y" rather than "X sent me this email that says Y".

      Of course it's easier just not to say anything bad about other people, but much more boring.

      IANALY,TINLA

    6. Re:New disclaimer: by hacker · · Score: 2, Funny

      This product is meant for educational purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. List each check separately by bank number. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. Do not use while operating a motor vehicle or heavy equipment. Postage will be paid by addressee. Subject to approval. This is not an offer to sell securities. Apply only to affected area. May be too intense for some viewers. Do not stamp. Use other side for additional listings. For recreational use only. Do not disturb. All models over 18 years of age. If condition persists, consult your physician. No user-serviceable parts inside. Freshest if eaten before date on carton. Subject to change without notice. Times approximate. Simulated picture. No postage necessary if mailed in the United States. Breaking seal constitutes acceptance of agreement. For off-road use only. As seen on TV. One size fits all. Many suitcases look alike. Contains a substantial amount of non-tobacco ingredients. Colors may, in time, fade. We have sent the forms which seem to be right for you. Slippery when wet. For office use only. Not affiliated with the American Red Cross. Drop in any mailbox. Edited for television. Keep cool; process promptly. Post office will not deliver without postage. List was current at time of printing. Return to sender, no forwarding order on file, unable to forward. Not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages resulting from any defect, error or failure to perform. At participating locations only. Not the Beatles. Penalty for private use. See label for sequence. Substantial penalty for early withdrawal. Do not write below this line. Falling rock. Lost ticket pays maximum rate. Your cancelled check is your receipt. Add toner. Place stamp here. Avoid contact with skin. Sanitized for your protection. Be sure each item is properly endorsed. Sign here without admitting guilt. Slightly higher west of the Mississippi. Employees and their families are not eligible. Beware of dog. Contestants have been briefed on some questions before the show. Limited time offer, call now to insure prompt delivery. You must be present to win. No passes accepted for this engagement. No purchase necessary. Processed at location stamped in code at top of carton. Shading within a garment may occur. Use only in well-ventilated area. Keep away from fire or flame. Replace with same type. Approved for veterans. Booths for two or more. Check here if tax deductible. Some equipment shown is optional. Price does not include taxes. No Canadian coins. Not recommended for children. Prerecorded for this time zone. Reproduction strictly prohibited. No solicitors. No alcohol, dogs, or horses. No anchovies unless otherwise specified. Restaurant package, not for resale. List at least two alternate dates. First pull up, then pull down. Call toll free before digging. Driver does not carry cash. Some of the trademarks mentioned in this product appear for identification purposes only. Record additional transactions on back of previous stub. Decision of judges is final. This supersedes all previous notices.

  5. Yeah, but... by cburley · · Score: 5, Funny
    isn't this ruling just one court's opinion??

    --
    Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful.
    1. Re:Yeah, but... by Theodore+Logan · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yep, I'd say it is. But of course, that's just my opinion.. =)

      --

      "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance" - Derek Bok

    2. Re:Yeah, but... by mangu · · Score: 2, Informative

      Courts are "experts", an expert's opinions have the weight of facts.

    3. Re:Yeah, but... by TekPolitik · · Score: 2
      isn't this ruling just one court's opinion??

      Funny, but not particularly useful. This ruling is entirely unsurprising - in fact it really doesn't rate a mention in the news, legally speaking.

  6. good except... by mickeyreznor · · Score: 3, Interesting

    it would have been nice if they extended this ruling to include personal web pages, which have been under attack constantly by lawsuits claiming libel and slander, etc.

    --

    Got Freedom?
    Thinking?

    1. Re:good except... by DrSkwid · · Score: 3, Interesting

      simple solution

      set up your webpage to look like a message board

      and if anyone tries to post throw up a 500 server error page :)

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    2. Re:good except... by TekPolitik · · Score: 2
      it would have been nice if they extended this ruling to include personal web pages, which have been under attack constantly by lawsuits claiming libel and slander, etc.

      The ruling, or more correctly the principle of law it's based on, is not specific to message boards. The exact same rules apply to any web site - just be careful to provide appropriate facts, demonstrate some public interest and make sure commentary is clearly delineated.

  7. IMHO by pete-classic · · Score: 4, Funny

    Note to self: start every comment "IMHO . . ."

    1. Re:IMHO by SomeoneGotMyNick · · Score: 2
      Most Certainly!!!

      I always start my rantings off with four letter words...

      --------

  8. Re:Joke meta-post by TheReverand · · Score: 2
    I'm waiting more for the CmdrTaco sued osm off of this webpage posts.


    Oh yes, and Michael illegaly deleted Signal 11 posts.

  9. new UBB tag by LMCBoy · · Score: 3, Funny

    How about a new tag for HTML/UBB/whatever:

    <fact>Linux rules, M$ drools!</fact>

    This tag would lend the enclosed text more credence, but also hold the poster responsible for its content.

    heh.

    --
    Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
    1. Re:new UBB tag by LMCBoy · · Score: 2

      You have to use "& lt;" and "& gt;" (without spaces) for the left and right angle brackets :)

      (note I didn't put that statement in a <fact> tag, so you can't sue if it doesn't work :p)

      --
      Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
  10. this will help FC by studboy · · Score: 2, Funny

    the feverish oversugared lawyers at PrintCafe are trying to sue our favorite dotbomb news site to get real names of .. "Ex-DLJ", "sucky-me", and "idiot". No joke. Seems they posted some stuff that printcafe no like, and therefore they're trying to get FC's nonexistant posting logs.

  11. Whoah.... by Sj0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The thought that a person could be sued like that is really terrifying... I'm glad that at least some judges are finally realizing that the internet is a medium for two way communication by anyone, rather than a one way medium for rich people and corporatins, like TV.

    I also thought about how if Microsoft were to sue Slashdot...they'd be raking in the ill-gotten gains!

    --
    It's been a long time.
    1. Re:Whoah.... by 3am · · Score: 2

      what if i were to post this on datek:

      "beware LNUX (va linux systems), their management spends exhorbidant sums of money on 'business trips' to China in order to sodomize pandas"

      the decision as i read it states that anyone who acts on this information should know better, because it is on a message board and is intrinsically opinion rather than fact.

      more sinister, posting:

      "Person X embezzles money from his company. He then uses it to buy drugs which he then sells to children. He funnels the profits to terrorist groups. And he like kiddy p0rn".

      this could hurt X's reputation and may cause people to harm him. however, because of the context, it is not libelous. however, if a newspaper did the same, there would be a lawsuit and the paper would lose. this is a silly double standard, and invites abuse ("sorry that we at the NY Post said that GE stock was going to nosedive without any evidence, but everyone knows that you cannot take this paper seriously...")

      essentially the judge says that nothing on message boards can be taken seriously - not that personal communication must be protected. Their is now a legal precedent that message boards are a joke.

      --

      A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
    2. Re:Whoah.... by markmoss · · Score: 2

      IANAL, and I haven't taken the time to find the forums or the offending posts themselves, but it really sounds like the court was just going back to common sense. That is, to be libelous or slanderous, a statement must assert facts, be in such a form and forum that it will be taken seriously, and the facts must be untrue. "X sucks" doesn't assert a fact. Both of your examples do assert facts, not just opinions.

      "Exorbitant spending" is pretty much opinion -- my Scottish ancestors would think my own budget quite exorbitant, but Californian dotcommers with two beamers in the driveway would think I'm a miser. Your statement about pandas asserts a fact, but unless you also claim to be in a particular position to know, it's doubtful that a reasonable person would take it seriously. And if a forum consists mostly of statements like these, only an idiot would take anything posted on it to be a statement of fact.

      "Person X embezzles money from his company" on anything but a humor site is indeed libellous if you don't have a good reason to think it's true. However, the whole example becomes less and less believable as it goes on. On slashdot I wouldn't believe any of it, but in the NY Times I'd figure either there was a reliable source for everything or the editors were about to pay out some big bucks.

      Slashdot gets some well thought out posts by people who actually do know the facts, so don't count on it being taken as opinions only. If you are saying something that sounds at all like a fact, but you don't actually know or have a reliable source, start with "IMO" or something so it is clear that it's an opinion. (And I really, really would appreciate it if certain people would start their posts "I just made up some statistics...")

    3. Re:Whoah.... by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

      Or, put another way, it brings the 'reasonable person' rule of thumb back into play. Would a reasonable person believe that the executive officers of LNUX fly to china to sodomize pandas? No. However, would a reasonable person believe that they might be using corporate funds to fly to Thailand to partake in it's legendary child sex industry? Sure, THAT'S possible.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  12. Stock Market Manipulation by MiTEG · · Score: 2

    I think this could be used to circumvent for prosecution for manipulating the stock market by doing such things as hyping or posting false news about a particular company, as long as it was not not "framed as a form of fact". A little bit more serious than libel, yes, but it is a somewhat alarming precedent.

    --
    The future isn't what it used to be.
  13. Good news for Fuckedcompany.com by Nerftoe · · Score: 5, Informative

    Fuckedcompany.com recently received a subpoena from the lawyers of Printcafe.com to cough up "records" of the anonymous posters who made slanderous comments on the site. Some of the comments were directed to the CEO's wife. It seems that Pud (owner of FC) doesn't keep records of the IP addresses of those who frequent the site. Pud said that it was too bad that he already had finished up his book, because they would have received a mention.

    1. Re:Good news for Fuckedcompany.com by Fesh · · Score: 2, Funny

      Uh... *wibbles*

      Is that... Is that 10' vibrator made of concrete, or a 10' device for vibrating concrete? Beeeeeg Deeference. Although both peg my silliness meter...

      *wibbles some more*

      --
      --Fesh
      Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
  14. Re:Slashdot Paradox by pete-classic · · Score: 2

    True of falst: you didn't preview?

    -Peter

  15. It's a two-fer day! by Rocketboy · · Score: 2

    Wow -- two sensible court opinions in one day! Is the moon full or something?

    :)

    1. Re:It's a two-fer day! by DrSkwid · · Score: 2, Funny

      it's better than that

      this month is a blue moon

      so you can say "two sensible court rulings on the same day only come round once in a blue moon"

      (a blue moon is when two full moons occur in the same month)

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    2. Re:It's a two-fer day! by Mr.+Sketch · · Score: 2

      No, but we do get a blue moon on friday. Kinda fitting actually: 'We only get two sensible court opinions in one day only once in a blue moon'.

      --
      Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
  16. Dangerous article -- chaning the line by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 3, Insightful
    It must be read carefully. You have to keep in mind, that the ruling may change the line between fact and opinion, but not that much.


    The analysis of fact and opinion has been based on context and content. This ruling recognizes the context portion or the analysis. And states that it being in that forum makes it as from a disgruntled stockholder as opposed to someone in "the know" or with authority.


    Even on a web posting, libel can still be found.

    --
    Fight Spammers!
  17. It's about time by Zen+Mastuh · · Score: 2

    It's refreshing in this time of corporate neofascism to see clear thinking from legislators and jurists. After all, such websites (/., yahoo, kur05hin, etc...) are known as "forums"--they exist solely for expression of opinion.

    That said, will someone please post a review of the full text of the OT3 manual? I'm interested in your opinion.

    --
    "What is the sound of one belly slapping?"
  18. I guess this leaves the Scientologists SOL by NeuroManson · · Score: 2

    Since they've been suing everyone and anyone who dared question their cult and all...

    --
    Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
    1. Re:I guess this leaves the Scientologists SOL by haruharaharu · · Score: 2

      Nope. They sue to harass, not win. So long as they can force you into court, they're happy

      --
      Reboot macht Frei.
  19. Any lawyers here? by 47PHA60 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At first I applauded this decision, then I started to wonder, what do I do if 10 people start posting hundreds of negative messages about my company using different accounts? How can I prove that those posts are lies, versus opinions based on real experiences with my business? What if my business has been damaged by this, and I find out who did it? Have I any recourse at all?

    For example, the /. community can help to overcome 'anonymously' planted FUD about linux or OpenBSD, due to our numbers and the fact that many of us feel we have a stake in the outcome.

    What would I, as a business owner, be able to do? I guess that instead of suing, I could politely ask the forum moderator for prominent space to answer the complaints, and challenge the posters to come forward with proof of their bad experience. If they cannot, I could claim victory, otherwise, it may be that I run a bad business. That is, I guess, one purpose of an open forum, but it still concerns me.

    On the other hand, there seem to be so many bad businesses out there making plenty of money, that it is essential that the right to express an opinion is protected.

  20. /. is still safe by EccentricAnomaly · · Score: 5, Funny

    Deep, Deep, down in the sprawling dungeons below Redmond, Washington:

    "Yes, Yes, my precious"

    "Uhhh... Mr. Gates?"

    "WHAT are you doing here!"

    "Uhhh... sir, I was sent my the legal team... ya know, Nazgul, Balrog, & son... it seems a court ruling in California put a crimp in our plan to rid oursleves of that vile website, slash-"

    "DON'T say that word!! ...well, I guess we need to go to plan B... Send forth the flying monkeys!! Muhahaha!!"

    "Uh, sir.. we don't have any flying monkeys... all we have is Dancing Monkey boy..."

    "Crap... forget this, I'm just going to stay down here and play with my invisibility ring"

    --
    There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
    1. Re:/. is still safe by Glytch · · Score: 2

      Definitely Saruman. ESR would be Gandalf.

  21. This ruling (would) make no sense by cryptochrome · · Score: 5, Informative

    There's a big difference between a negative opinion and libel - an opinion is a personal statement meant to negatively impact the object, while libel is a FALSE written statement meant to negatively impact the object.

    So while it's true that most of what you find on message boards is bullshit, and should thus be regarded as such without further verification, it can still be libel. All that matters is that it's a lie presented as fact to hurt the object.

    However, what the defendants were accused of is TRADE libel - apparently they were saying things like "this stock sucks" clearly within the context of opinion. It could be considered libel within some contexts - but not within that of a message forum. Anyone getting stock tips off one of those is pretty dumb. So in their limited case, it seems they were not commiting libel.

    cryptochrome

    --

    ---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?

    1. Re:This ruling (would) make no sense by tchuladdiass · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There was a case back a year or so ago (I don't have the linke, but it was popular enough to be on some TV news magazines) about a teenager that had to pay 6-figure fines to the SEC for pumping up stocks on message boards then dumping them when the price went up. I wonder if this case will allow him to get is money back?

    2. Re:This ruling (would) make no sense by thelaw · · Score: 4, Interesting

      probably not. the stock-price-inflater's action qualifies as willful manipulation of financial markets, which, of course, is illegal. :) even if he'd lost money it would have been illegal.

      on the other hand, if he'd been making derogatory comments specifically for the purpose of manipulating the markets, and the appeals court said it was okay, then he might get his money back.

      is this the 9th appeals court? they seem to have a history of being reversed...

      jon

      --
      -- http://www.cerastes.org
    3. Re:This ruling (would) make no sense by Glint · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The most interesting implications for this will be in the area of "libel per se."

      Despite popular belief, truth is not a complete defense against libel. If the comment is sexual in nature (e.g. "This prostitute is not a virgin," "This hairy-palmed fifteen year old masturbates feverishly") then it can be brought to court as libel without the plaintiff having to prove or disprove anything.

      The reason that I am more familiar than I would like to be with this is because I wrote a satirical "news" story on my LiveJournal once about a fictional kid who masturbated too much, and I assigned the kid a pseudonym that happened to be the real AIM screen name of a person I knew in real life. Stupid, I know. Even though only seven words were devoted to linking the pseudonym to the fictional character, the kid eventually found it and his mother threatened to sue. The story has since been erased.

      If a similar thing happened on a message board after this ruling, I wonder if the poster could still be brought up on libel charges?

      - Adam

    4. Re:This ruling (would) make no sense by banuaba · · Score: 2

      The beauty of that case was they fined him 500K or what have you, but he profited 800K.

      I could live with that.

      --


      Brant

      Argle. Bargle.
  22. Re:Good News by Quizme2000 · · Score: 2

    So when we bash on M$ winblows we can now say Microsoft© Windows XP ?

    --
    "Get them before they get....
  23. Rational dudes? by KarmaBlackballed · · Score: 3, Funny

    I checked the date, but today is not April 1st. How is it possible that there are two postings on Slashdot today where California, the state with blackout summers and crazy laws, has issued court rulings that make sense! This is crazy. The world must be ending.

    If this shows a trend, I may have to move out that way.

    --

    --- -- - -
    Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
  24. That by nll8802 · · Score: 2

    That worked out exactly the way it should have. Imagine what it would be like if you were held legally responsible for posts. On the other hand it could get rid of the post trolls on Slashdot

    --

    --
    FearLinux.com
  25. Tell that to vwforums.com by swordboy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Check out this article. A VW dealership is suing for a post on a message board. Both the poster and the message board have been named in the trial.

    --

    Life is the leading cause of death in America.
  26. sucky me and idiot by t0qer · · Score: 2

    When judges read these names don't they ever just LAUGH these lawsuits out of court? Isn't our justice system bogged down enough without some jackass trying to sue over some content created by the user and not the actual site creator?

    I read those two names on the top of that very leagal document and could help but to start cracking up. Maybe it's the child in me that likes that childish humor.

  27. Is this a good thing? by Baba+Abhui · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't see how it's a good thing to excuse individuals from responsibility for what they say on the Web.

    Now, in this particular case, I think it's insane that PC maker would sue one of their own disgruntled customers for expressing his disgruntlement. They were idiots to sue, and the suit should have gone nowhere fast. But a blanket assertion that message board contents is strictly a matter of opinion seems like going too far in the other direction.

    So now I've got the freedom to use a message board to say "My Acme widget turned out to suck, the Acme tech support sucked, and I think everyone at Acme has their head up their butt!"

    But Acme can now use the same message board to say "Baba Abhui is a rotten liar. He never even bought our widget, he probably stole a broken one from God-knows-where. He'd beat up his own grandmother for a nickel! And he's a karma whore, too!" Since that's just Acme's opinion, there's nothing I can do.

    The real problem is libelous companies that use their superior resources to quell individual troublemakers. If a large corporation brings libel or slander charges against me, they'll end up hurting me (time and money) even if they actually lose the case. Maybe what's needed is some mechanism to stem the tide of frivolous lawsuits like this, rather than a blanket assertion that what you say on the web just doesn't count.

    1. Re:Is this a good thing? by Happy+Monkey · · Score: 2

      But Acme can now use the same message board to say "Baba Abhui is a rotten liar. He never even bought our widget, he probably stole a broken one from God-knows-where. He'd beat up his own grandmother for a nickel! And he's a karma whore, too!" Since that's just Acme's opinion, there's nothing I can do.

      Yes, what's the problem with that? People would give it just as much credence (or less) as your assertion that Acme widgets suck. That's speech. If either of you offered evidence, it would no longer be opinion. The validity of the evidence would decide whether it was libel or not.

      --
      __
      Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
  28. Stock market by nick_burns · · Score: 2

    I wonder how this will affect stock trading message boards. This boy used message boards to talk up certain stocks, and I'm sure that its no worse than the crap stock analysts on cnbc or msnbc say. However, this ruling on message boards may not apply due to the fact it affects the stock market.

  29. a blow to trolls everywhere by BlueLines · · Score: 2

    you mean that no one _really_ poured hot grits into natalie portmann's pants? i'm shocked....

    -BlueLines

    --
    --BlueLines "The cost of living hasn't affected it's popularity." -anonymous
  30. Will CA try for three? by mttlg · · Score: 2

    So now that EULA resale restrictions and message board libel are out, what's next? Will CA rule that Microsoft should be punished and not rewarded for its crimes? Will it take a swing at the DMCA? Will a massive earthquake send it to the bottom of the ocean? (Ok, so that one isn't exactly related, but it is probably just as likely...)

  31. Re:This has other ramifications by Dynedain · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Actually, while it is expected that their testimony can be depended upon, it is still not "fact" or indisputable concrete evidence as defined in the courts. Hence why lawers phrase their questions "Dr. X, in your opinion, what was the cause........." If the lawyers do not qualify their questions it can be objected and become grounds for an appeal. Notice both sides in a litigation are able to provide expert witnesess that "prove" their side. Hence the difference between opinnion and fact.

    By the way, in the US, hearesay (a form of opinnion) is not admissible as evidence, however, it is admissiable in military courts.

    --
    I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
  32. Huh by BillyGoatThree · · Score: 3, Funny

    IANAL, but I bet this means we can all stop saying "IANAL".

    --
    324006
  33. Re:With a little luck... by PoiBoy · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I disagree. Suppose on my personal web page I make the bold (perhaps true) claim that all Ford automobiles are unsafe at any speed, and I do not back up that comment with any reliable evidence. I then make sure my web page appears on all the large search engines so that anyone looking for information about cars can see my web page.

    Although this may be a bit farfetched, suppose that as a direct result of my propaganda, Ford sees a reductions in the sale of cars.

    IMHO, Ford has every right in the world to sue me for loss of business. Since I make an unsubstantiated claim about a firm that has a material impact upon its profitability, surely I am liable for damages.

    --
    Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
  34. Does this mean by gillbates · · Score: 2

    That what's posted on slashdot are merely opinions about the superiority of certain operating systems?

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
    1. Re:Does this mean by jcr · · Score: 2

      Of course they're opinions. They happen to be accurate and well-informed opinions, but opinions nevertheless.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  35. This makes so much sense, it is funny. by AtariDatacenter · · Score: 3, Interesting

    And for a great example of a case of this going on right now, head on over to Fucked Company where some dot.bomb is trying to get FC to reveal the names of some anonymous posters who said bad things about the company and the CEO's wife.

  36. fsck'ed company by mangu · · Score: 2, Funny

    A company that's always checking their file systems must have pretty good records of everything.

  37. Does this make sense? by mindstrm · · Score: 2

    I'd think it would be obvious.

    If I say 'CompuShop SUCKS' that's an opinion.
    If I say 'CompuShop ripped me off for $500 and regularly fucks over it's customers', thats a statement of fact.
    The former cannot get me sued. The latter (if untrue) can.

    How does the fact that it's posted on a chat group matter at all?

  38. In other news... by uslinux.net · · Score: 2

    In other news the sun rose today, and fire is still hot...

    Seriously, why is this necessarily an unexpected event? In order to prove libel, I believe you must show that the person knew what they were presenting was false, and that they intended to cause harm. I think there's some additional requirements, too, like they must be identifiable to someone else and the material needs to be published/disseminated.

    If I have a bad experience with Microsoft software and post my problems to a web site, that is NOT libel. If I say "Oracle sucks", well, I suppose Oracle could sue, but "sucks" is obviously my opinion. If I published a report on the web showing MS SQL Server as being 50% faster than Oracle, despite having results showing otherwise, then I probably *would* be guilty of libel.

    Venting your frustration with a company on /. or fsckedcompany.com or some other venue is NOT libel, unless you're intentionally lying about a company, and even then, there may be a level of subjectiveness.

    BTW, IANAL, but I play one on TV.

  39. Jonathan G Lebed by TheViffer · · Score: 2, Informative
    was the name. And how the prices of many stocks were inflated was by "pump and dump" on Yahoo/AOL message boards.

    This article also states that the SEC wanted it all. Lebed said not without a fight. SEC turned around and said .. ok give us some of it and keep the rest.

    --
    -- Knowing too much can get you killed, but knowing who knows too much can make you rich.
  40. That's their opinion! by DaoudaW · · Score: 2

    Interesting that court decisions are also called opinions. In fact, Bush's presidency is just a majority opinion. Gore is president too, according to a dissenting opinion.

    So I guess we can't sue the court for libel now either...

  41. lawyers for jim ellis vw can't be happy by pangloss · · Score: 3, Informative

    Given the page views at vwvortex, i'm sure many have heard of the lawsuit that the Jim Ellis VW dealership in Atlanta, Georgia brought against George Mantis. The dealership sued Mantis recently, alleging that the comments Mantis posted to a VW web forum were libelous/slanderous.

    If you haven't already, I highly recommend you have a read (although the length of the thread at this point easily rivals some of the longest ever seen even on /.). It started out with a few disgruntled customers, and when the dealership tried to snuff the thread by serving papers to both Mantis and VWvortex, it became a giant stink, with international media coverage and even a grassroots legal defense fund. If you look at the timestamps about 7 pages in, you really get a sense of how fast and across how many vectors information can travel.

    FYI: The dealership seems to be backtracking now, and supposedly will be in settlement talks this Friday. Hopefully this translates into an even stronger position for Mantis to deal from.

  42. Have a nice day. by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 3, Funny

    Disclaimer: The following comments represent opinion only and should NOT be regarded as statements of fact, slander or libel:

    Microsoft SUCKS ! Windows SUCKS ! MSN SUCKS ! Internet Explorer SUCKS ! Passport SUCKS ! .NET SUCKS ! [insert name of Microsoft product here] SUCKS !

    The following, however, are statements of fact:

    Linux ROCKS! FreeBSD ROCKS! NetBSD ROCKS! OpenBSD ROCKS! Darwin ROCKS! Amiga ROCKS! BeOS ROCKS! IceWM ROCKS! vi ROCKS! Opera for Linux ROCKS! Qmail ROCKS! csh ROCKS! [insert name of UN*X program here] ROCKS!

    Oh well.

    1. Re:Have a nice day. by epyx · · Score: 2, Funny

      I really hope you didn't use Front Page to post that comment.

    2. Re:Have a nice day. by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 2

      I really hope you didn't use Front Page to post that comment.

      No, in fact I did not use Front Page to post that comment. I used Opera 5.0 for Linux, running on FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE, with XFree86 4, IceWM, and a csh in the background somewhere. Unlike some folks, I actually use the software I advocate. And why do you suppose I advocate it? Because it ROCKS!!!

      I don't use Front Page because, and the following is a statement of opinion and as such should NOT be considered a statement of fact, slander or libel: Front Page SUCKS!

      Oh well.

  43. rulings that make sense by Alien54 · · Score: 2
    Without a ruling like this, you can get all kinds of things happening, like people people putting together wacky license agreements just to protect free speech and stuff like that.

    There is this whole thing of while the government cannot suppress certain rights (your milage may vary) that companies routinely do this via their employment agreements.

    glad to see some progress in the right direction.

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
  44. Religeous Copyright? by uberdave · · Score: 2, Insightful
    (IMHO, if you claim you're a religion and are getting non-profit status, you should not be able to retain copyright.)

    Perhaps it's a lack of caffeine, or that I was up waaay to late watching Star Trek, but I'm failing to see the logic of your opinion (It is an opinion. It says so. See! It says IMHO, right at the start.). Why should a religeous organization not be able to retain a copyright?

    If I were a clergyman, and I wrote a bible study guide for my congregation, or a book on how to counsel someone in grief, or for that matter, how to keep your stained glass looking it's sparkliest, why should that not be copyrightable?

    --
    "I'm not impatient. I just hate waiting." - My Dad
    1. Re:Religeous Copyright? by Happy+Monkey · · Score: 2

      What (s)he was probably saying was that the Church of Scientology shouldn't hold copyright, but members who are also authors should. Debatable as well, but more reasonable.

      --
      __
      Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
  45. Should we get new moderation tags? by StevenMaurer · · Score: 2


    Opinion -1
    Fact +1

  46. Hey, I've *used* csh! by roystgnr · · Score: 2

    And that one was in your fact column, too! Does this mean I can hold you liable for all the time I wasted writing csh scripts? I wonder what kind of hourly damages I can collect...

  47. Re:With a little luck... by Happy+Monkey · · Score: 2

    So if your pure opinion web page causes a loss of money to a corporation, your first ammendment rights are trumped? That may be the de facto situation in many cases, but i'd hardly say it's right. If an unsubstantiated claim is enough to cause a noticable sales loss, Ford should sue its PR firm before it sues your site. Now, if you substantiate your claim with lies, they can still sue you for libel.

    --
    __
    Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
  48. The bogus libel suit attack by Zeinfeld · · Score: 3, Informative
    The FC attack is not the only attack against an anonymous online user where a lawsuit appears to have been used in an attempt to discover someone's identity so that extra-judicial harassment may be applied. There are a growing number of cases in which profitless (and on occasion revenueless) dotcoms have been trying to silence critics using spurious lawsuits.

    My favorite amongst these is the ZixIt/Visa lawsuit. The CEO of ZixIt said in a con call that 'shareholders should sell if there are no ZixCharge partners by the end of the year'. So the end of the year comes and no partners, coincidentally ZixIt filled a suit against Visa claiming that anonymous posts on the Yahoo message board by a Visa employee had somehow interferred with the business relationships of the company.

    The lawsuit is still in progress, only Visa are now subpoenaing the records of the discussion board from Yahoo. The only explanation for this would be if they suspected that ZixIt employees were posting to the board. ZixIt is no longer revenueless, they sold 9,500 seats at something like $25 a seat last quarter, the ZixCharge product has never launched, although this may in part be due to the ZixIt payment site having been hacked a few months back. Kinda hard to promote a secure payments scheme after that eh?

    During the arguments over the Paula Jones lawsuit the one that I thought was least good was that the President should not have to spend time answering vexatious lawsuits. While I think that the lawsuit was cooked up by the GOP from start to finis, I don't buy that argument. The Congress and President should have to face the same risks of bogus lawsuits as the rest of us, that might encourage them to do something about the situation.

    --
    Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
    Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
  49. Hopefully the second... by Mandoric · · Score: 2

    considering that someone's selling one used. =D

    (seriously, I can't tell from either the picture or the text... on the one han, it appears to have a gas-burning motor attached which would be a bit overkill for the first application, but on the other, the page warns that the packaging may reveal the contents and they can't guarantee it remaining unknown...)

  50. Re:Slashdot? by Happy+Monkey · · Score: 2

    Perhaps you mean Scientologists? Or have the Christian Scientists been suing message boards, too?

    --
    __
    Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
  51. Am I the only one .... by thumbtack · · Score: 2, Funny

    that sees the irony in the fact that court decisions are called opinions and not facts? If I am, it must be the caffeine...

  52. current APD lawsuit by bad-badtz-maru · · Score: 2


    http://www.aquaria.net/lawsuit.html contains details about a current issue where the company "Pets Warehouse" has a $15,000,000 lawsuit filed against a dozen or so members of the "Aquatic Plants Digest" mailing list. In my opinion, the defendants were complaining in a manner typical of the complaints about various business one would see in message forums across the internet (bad service, dont shop here, blah blah blah). This lawsuit is real and the defendants have all been served. This lawsuit seems to be even more frivolous than the one mentioned in the newsbyte article.

    maru

  53. Fiction =/= Truth by Liza · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Let me see if I got this -- Adam was *threatened* with a lawsuit, therefore truth is not a complete defense against libel?

    Um. First, it's pretty easy to sue someone. Anyone watch West Wing last night? It was an old rerun where they talk about lots of lawsuits against the President, from crackpots who want the government to stop letting aliens broadcast through their fillings, to someone blaming the President for the fact their spouse didn't wear a seatbelt and died in a car accident. Lunatic lawsuits are not uncommon. They might lose, or you might give in because hiring a lawyer to defend you is expensive. But in this case, Adam wasn't actually sued.

    Second, Adam wrote about a "fictional kid" who masturbates to much and had the personally identifiable information as a real person, who presumably doesn't do what he described the "fictional kid" doing. In other words, truth wouldn't be a defense, because Adam wasn't telling the truth.

    Now let's pretend for a moment that the "fictional kid" with a real kid's AIM name really is a compulsive masturbator. Then his story wouldn't be libel, but he still might get sued.

    Invasion of privacy, and in particular "public disclosure of private facts" is against the law in most states in the US. The law varies from state to state, but the tort "invasion of privacy" in most places is something like:

    One who intentionally intrudes, physically or otherwise, upon the solitude or seclusion of another or his private affairs or concerns, is subject to liability to the other for invasion of privacy, if the intrusion would be highly offensive to a reasonable person.

    Restatement (Second) of Torts, 652B (emphasis added)

    I think in most cases, the publication of a claim that a person is a compulsive masturbator would meet the "highly offensive to a reasonable person" standard.

    Truth is a complete defense against libel. But that has nothing to do, as far as I can tell, with Adam's situation. I could be wrong - state law on this varies. But that's how I see it.

    Liza
    --
    These opinions are my own. My employer is not aware of them, does not endorse them, and is not responsible for them.