Athlon MP Reviewed

RendEr writes "At The Tech Report, there's a review of AMD's latest multiprocessor chip, the Athlon MP 1900+. Watching this thing smoke through Linux kernel complies is a beautiful thing. Combined with AMD's new 760MPX chipset, these chips could help usher in a new era of cheap dual-processor desktop systems. "

Comments

Is it me?

[professortomoe]

Or does anyone else think AMD's new naming convention is nifty. I'm getting sick of everyone bragging about their ghzs.

Re:Is it me?

[Sobrique]

AMD, Intel and Sun have all reached the conclusion that 'Mhz don't matter'. As a measure of processor speed it's only of a little relevance. The UltraSPARC III+ at 1015 Mhz is going to hit benchmarks comparable to a 2Ghs P4. Got to wonder about 'Athlon XP' though. I mean, did Windows beat them to it? And couldn't they think of anything less of an 'XP' cache (sic) in? Athlon RF (really fast). Athlon BI (Better than Intel). Athlon Turbo. :)

Re:Is it me?

[_Ash_]

Well, the term XP sells. AMD knows that. There are still much more users running windows than anything else. And all (or at least most) of these users want Windows XP. So if they're going to buy a new PC and they see Athlon XP, they will get an urge to buy it. It's pure marketing technique.

Re:Is it me?

[Anonymous Coward]

No kidding. WOW, MAN! This new AMD processor is a whopping 4% better than the last one, but its cost is 30% higher.

I'll be happy with my Athlon-C 1200 for several more years, at which point I'll no doubt be buying something measured in the dozens of gigahertz.

Re:Is it me?

[gazbo]

It's all marketing, though. Everyone knows that although AMD deny it, the XP nomenclature is a direct cash-in on Windows. And you're right, all processor manufacturers know that MHz are not a good way to compare chips with different architectures, but despite being told this over and over, Joe Public seems to be swayed by the big numbers. That is why Intel put so much effort into making high MHz over all else, and AMD are (effectively) lying about their MHz.

This is also why IIRC AMD will not approve any bios that lists the true speed of an AMD XP chip.

Re:Is it me?

[Rovaani]

Wasn't it supposed to be Athlon 4 at first to clearly position it against Pentium 4?

ISTR AMD and Microsoft had some co-operative marketing going on a while ago...

Re:Is it me?

[stoffel]

The great megahertz myth...

See http://www.apple.com/g4/myth/ for a simple explination that hertz is not everything...

Re:Is it me?

[nocent]

Or does anyone else think AMD's new naming convention is nifty. I'm getting sick of everyone bragging about their ghzs.

i agree with you regarding mhz is not everything. but what a coincidence. when AMD broke through the 1ghz barrier, they couldn't wait to brag about it. now that they're getting left behind mhz-wise by Intel and having trouble reaching 2ghz, suddenly, "clock speed is not an accurate indication of performance". if apple and amd had 3ghz chips, you can be sure they would be hyping that up like crazy.

p.s. it's nothing new. AMD and others used to do that eons ago with their old chips which led to tremendous confusion amongst users.

Re:Is it me?

[Anonymous Coward]

I like it. Better than Intel's Pentium4 1.8ghz, which is about half as fast as its AMD counterpart. If anything, Intel's naming convention is misleading.

Re:Is it me?

[CmdrPaco]

I first remember seeing the "MegaHertz Myth" on Apple's webiste, when they were touting the advantages of the RISC design. Linked here: http://www.apple.com/g4/myth/

Re:Is it me?

[Hamshrew]

Mine lists the true speed(Tiger MP).
Actually, I'm not sure if it lists it on bootup. But it definitely lists it in the BIOS Setup screen.

Re:Is it me?

[ender81b]

Nifty isn't the word I would use for it, but a step in the right direction. /me wonders why they don't just give up and start measuring peformance in FLOPS..(You have to admit: those Mac commercials with the cube saying 'supercomputer' where damn cool).

Re:Is it me?

[mrfiddlehead]

All they're doing is using Intel's chip speeds as an external comparison. So AMD's 1900+ runs at 1600Mhz but compares to a P4 1900MHz system. We're not going to get away from the MHz comparisons that easily, especially since it still remains the single most identifiable factor.

Psychologically it's a good move for AMD. Even though I know that their 1600MHz chip is faster than Intel's 1900MHz chip (or equivalent) I would still feel a bit, disempowered ... groan. And for those who do not know they are surely going to be suckered into Intel's super MHz sales pitch.

Ya gotta roll with the punches ...

Re:Is it me?

[JanneM]

FLOPS is just as bad; it only measures FPU performance, so it's only remotely accurate for math intensive apps; also, just as for CPU speed, it totally ignores how much work you actually accomplish during a cycle. We might as well go with BOGOMips - at least we know those aren't accurate...
/Janne

Re:Is it me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, AMD say that the XP ratings are relative to the old Athlon speeds. So an XP1900+ runs at the speed a 1900MHz Athlon (non XP) would have run at.

Yes, this is to avoid legal problems with Intel.

Re:Is it me?

[Xoro]

Ha!

You talk about debunking the great megahertz myth and give a link to the Apple marketing department for proof? That's rich. Too bad some of us do things other than run Photoshop.

Here is a good, though aging list of cross-platform benchmarks. The PPC runs about 50% faster than the PIII in normal cases, about 100% faster when Altivec enhanced. Fantastic numbers. I love the PPC. If I could get one without going through Apple, I would.

So why does Apple think they're Lincoln Steffens for giving us the same exagerations as Intel, except from a different angle? If the G5 debuted at 2.5 GHz, that "myth" angle would go away pretty quick.

Re:Is it me?

[Defiler]

The Athlon 4 is the mobile version of the CPU.

Re:Is it me?

[led]

You can get PPC without going through Apple
try here. Of course the price tag of one of those AS/400 is a bit high, but maybe you can get a cheaper one on eBay...
And it even runs Linux...
:-))

Re:Is it me?

[Mondrames]

Kinda like how when Windows 9X came out, so did SOFTWARENAME 9X.

"Uh yeah, we thought that whole numerical thing that lets you know what version you have was to confusing. So now you can just look at the year, and know how old it is....Oh wait. Now it's SOFTWARE XP because the whole 4 digit year thing. Nothing to do with Microsoft at all. No sir. In fact, XP stands for Cairo...oh wait.."

Re:Is it me?

[Gannoc]

AMD, Intel and Sun have all reached the conclusion that 'Mhz don't matter'.

Wrong. Intel archetected their entire P4 line around having higher clock speeds in order to fool the public. This isn't a rumor, I worked there at the time.

They realized that when someone went to buy a computer, performance didn't matter as much as a big number. Consumers think a P3 running at 800mhz is much faster than a P3 running at 700mhz, and don't even consider stuff like video card, memory, and disk speed, much less differences in chip archetectures.

I mean, there's a reason why P4s performed so bad. Its not like they were all done making them and realized "Oh no! This thing isn't performing that well! Its barely better than a P3!" they knew it as they started to design it.

_AMD_ realized that they couldn't win the numbers battle, and renamed their chips to compensate. I hope it works better than when Cyrix did it.

Re:Is it me?

[Tower]

They should just use Spec numbers...
"The new Athlon 701i 634f!!!! Get it now!"
(Epox 8KHA+ Motherboard, Athlon (TM) XP 1900+ )

"Get rid of that old Pentium 4 609i 628f!"
(Intel D850GB motherboard(1.8 GHz P4))

Of course, that gives you the German car kind of luster (lustre U.K.), too... "Dude! My new Athlon 740i protection compiles a kernel superfast and corners like it is on rails!"

Or maybe not....

Re:Is it me?

[yobbo]

AMD and SUN have reached the conclusion that MHz doesn't matter, because they're the ones that don't have the higher number.

Intel has NOT reached the conclusion that MHz doesn't matter. They're basing their marketting ON MHz because it is the only weapon they have left!

Re:Is it me?

[stoffel]

I read that the new intel itanium now runs stable @ 800MHz.. So Intel should also consider changing there marketing strategy...

Who wants to buy a 800Mhz Itanium when there is a slower P4 2GHz is around....

Re:Is it me?

[nomadic]

Since when does Joe Public compare chips of different architectures? The naming convention is used by the non-computer literate, because traditionally it's been accurate; if you had a Pentium 233, and got a Pentium 333, it was faster. Seemed to work just then. Of course adding Athlons screwed it up a little, but it's still a good, general rule-of-thumb for comparing chip generations.

Re:Is it me?

[Tattva]

Of course, any name that has the letters x, s, e, p, v, etc, give the consumer certain subconcious signals. If I designed a processor for AMD I would name it the Athlon ROLA-ESX.

Re:Is it me?

[ret]

They know full well it doesn't matter technically speaking... they keep going with the mhz game anyway because in the consumer market where the consumer knows nothing but "bigger is better", mhz does matter, more mhz == more sales, that's why intel still makes a big deal out of having higher mhz processors. It's not that they haven't reached the same conclusion as the others, it's that it's more money in their pocket not to admit it.
--

Re:Is it me?

[Alien Being]

I use the analogy of a car engine.

The most important number is horsepower. I don't care if it's got a 10,000 rpm redline if it hasn't got enough torque to open a bottle of Jolt.

Integer and FP benchmarks are like a dyno test.

Kernel compiles and similar real world benchmarks are like putting the engine in a car and racing it.

Re:Is it me?

[roystgnr]

Since when does Joe Public compare chips of different architectures?

Since as long as I can remember. I have friends who never played games who saved a bundle on Cyrix chips with weak FPUs... and others who had to avoid those like the plague.

Since right now, especially. It's always been the case that Intel chips could be outsped by random ultraexpensive workstation CPUs at half the clock rate, but now we've got 2Ghz machines being outbenchmarked by *completely compatible* CPUs at 3/4 of the clockrate.

I think AMD's marketing here is shamefully deceptive, but they really did need to do something, and Apple's "public education" attempts about the growing irrelevance of MHz didn't seem to work very well.

Re:Is it me?

[nomadic]

Since as long as I can remember. I have friends who never played games who saved a bundle on Cyrix chips with weak FPUs... and others who had to avoid those like the plague.

They bought the chips separately? Then they're not Joe Publics. I'm referring to the vast majority of computer owners, who only think about clock speed when they're buying a new computer every four years.

I think AMD's marketing here is shamefully deceptive, but they really did need to do something, and Apple's "public education" attempts about the growing irrelevance of MHz didn't seem to work very well.

It didn't help matters that Apple computers aren't really that fast; don't get me wrong, I own a mac and I love it, but the PPC just doesn't outclass x86s like Apple claims, at least in real-world applications.

Re:Is it me?

[roystgnr]

It didn't help matters that Apple computers aren't really that fast; don't get me wrong, I own a mac and I love it, but the PPC just doesn't outclass x86s like Apple claims, at least in real-world applications.

True; the "400Mhz G4 beats 800Mhz Pentium" tests all depended on vectorized assembly stuff, but I don't think there's a benchmark at which a G4 wouldn't have blown away an Intel chip at the same clock speed. I suppose that's part of the problem: "Our computers are slower than theirs, but not nearly as much as you'd think!" isn't a great marketing gimmick.

Re:Is it me?

[rnturn]

``If I designed a processor for AMD I would name it the Athlon ROLA-ESX.''

I must need more sugar and/or caffiene in my system. It took me a while to undo the big/little-endian translation before I got the joke.

Sweet...

[NightWhistler]

"Sorry kids, no Christmas presents this year... Daddy's gonna buy a dual Athlon!" ;-)

Athlon MP

[GigsVT]

We just set up an AthlonMP 1600+ server using the Tyan Tiger board, and I have to say, Intel is going to have some serious competition in the server market.

This thing is incredible. With our RAID streaming 30-40meg/sec writes, and 100-130meg/sec reads, the Athlons barely break a sweat, sitting at 2X25% utilization, in the same situation where Dual 933 coppermine Intel chips maxed out at 2X100%.

The main reason we hadn't gone with AMD sooner in a server is because of the lack of a 64bit PCI board that didn't require special power connectors.

The Tyan Tiger was a godsend. In all, it, two 1600+s, 1gig DDR ram and a dual 160 SCSI card cost about 25% less than the Supermicro P3TDE6, 1GB RAM, and two 933 coppermine PIIIs (on board dual SCSI).

The Tyan board does have less 64 bit PCI slots, and also doesn't support 64bit 66Mhz PCI, but we didn't have any cards that supported that either. It does have four 64bit slots, and that was enough for us.

One thing I don't understand about the Tyan is why they didn't just make all the slots 64bit PCI. It is fully forward and backward compatible.

As a former die-hard Intel guy, I have to say AMD is finally a contender in the server market.

Re:Athlon MP

[Anonymous Coward]

What power supply did you get? (I'm specing out a tiger machine myself.)

Re:Athlon MP

[GigsVT]

The power supply company is named "EMACS" (yeah I know hehe).

They are dual 400 watt powersupplies, hot swap. They probably will only work in cases specially designed for dual power supplies, like the CalPC 16 or 32 bay case.

Probably not of much use to you at home, unless you have the money to spend.

MP 1900+ same as XP 1900+

[Phosphor3k]

The two are the exact same chip, excepting AMD's "SMP certification". So, if you want an even cheaper duel cpu solution, (without the warrenty of course) go for an 760MPX board with 2 XPs.

Re:MP 1900+ same as XP 1900+

[Chazmati]

I've heard there are 760MPX boards coming out (with 66 MHz support for the 64-bit PCI slots; is there anything else?) but I haven't seen any yet. Anyone see any non-sketchy details anywhere? The timing I've read about was mid-November. Anand Tech probably had the best article with pictures of some boards. Here's a link to his Preview from Comdex.

Re:MP 1900+ same as XP 1900+

[red_dragon]

There are some additional, albeit minor, differences between the MP and XP; IIRC, the MP's hardware data prefetch is optimised for SMP configurations. You can put any Athlon on a 760MP(x) board (even a Duron), but the MP will be a bit faster because of this. However, beyond this, yes, they're pretty much identical.

Re:MP 1900+ same as XP 1900+

[Chaostrophy]

Not the same!

They have a few treaks for better memory performance in multi processor situations, have a look at the http://www.anandtech.com/ benchmarks. They do not seem to have benifit in single cpu systems.

Yes, unlike Intel, AMDs multi cpu version of their chip has real design differences, not pinout and cache changes.

Of course, all socket A chips are good for SMP use.

Re:MP 1900+ same as XP 1900+

[Sloppy]

Of course, all socket A chips are good for SMP use.

Excuse me, you look like someone who might have a clue. :-) Do you know if you can mix and match different types? Could I use one of these new MP 1900+ with an "old" 1 GHz Thunderbird on the same motherboard?

Re:MP 1900+ same as XP 1900+

[nexthec]

I would say that you shouldnt mix and match, even if you can. more than likely it will cause the better proc to opperate at the lower proc's specs. I mean, these days AMD's are dirt cheap anyways so buy two. I would also try to find "matched" chjps. My experince with Intel has shown that chips that are from the same batch work better together than mixing batches. However I am inclined to think that the AMD might not have this problem to the same degree, it seems to me that AMD Does It Right(TM) when compared to Intel when it comes to Bigger Better Faster (see RDRAM vs SDRAM, Higher clock speed Vs Higher opperations, Higher price Vs higher performance)

Re:MP 1900+ same as XP 1900+

[Phosphor3k]

A quick check of Anandtech reavealed no benchmarks that prove what you claim. Please, if you have a direct URL for the benchmarks, post them.

Anandtech does, however mention that all Athlons sporting a Palamino core (MP, XP and mobile Athlon 4) offer the exact same memory prefetch enhancements, which you speak of. See the following URL: http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1483&p=4

Re:MP 1900+ same as XP 1900+

[Anonymous Coward]

At least with Intel gear, different speed CPUs is supported by the hardware. It is not supported by common SMP OSes (NT, Linux, etc). So you might boot, but your OS will probably crash.

Re:MP 1900+ same as XP 1900+

[psamuels]

The two are the exact same chip, excepting AMD's "SMP certification". So, if you want an even cheaper duel cpu solution, (without the warrenty of course) go for an 760MPX board with 2 XPs.

Yeah, and get the 1800+ rated chips instead of 1900+ and just overclock 'em.

Or, if overclocking makes you nervous (as it should), using XP chips instead of MP chips should make you nervous as well, for exactly the same reason.

I believe that very recent releases of the Linux kernel include a check to see if you're using Athlon XP chips for SMP. (Actually I don't know if the check made it in, but Dave Jones was at least playing with it.) This information is included in stack dumps, so you can cut and paste it into your bug report email and the kernel developers will know your machine is out of spec. Apparently there have been some odd bug reports in the past that might point to XP + SMP issues.

Re:MP 1900+ same as XP 1900+

[Chaostrophy]

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1483&p=13

1.2Ghz MP vs regular 1.2Ghz Athlon (and many other AMD and Intel systems) single and dual, on a database benchmark, lower numbers are better.

2 MP 12.2
2 normal 16.0
1 MP 19.3
1 normal 19.8

Re:MP 1900+ same as XP 1900+

[Chaostrophy]

and I've never had searches work at Anandtech.

: (

Re:MP 1900+ same as XP 1900+

[Anonymous Coward]

You fool, this is the old Athlon against the MP, not MP vs XP. MP=XP, but there have talks about disabling dual mode on XP, who knows if it will happen.

smokin!

[nocent]

Watching this thing smoke through Linux kernel complies is a beautiful thing.

Given the athlon's heat issues, it might literally be smoking!

(yes, i'm well aware of the follow-up article but can you actually buy one of these new thermal control motherboards? i thought not.)

Re:smokin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh come on... "heat issues"? Yeah, it smokes if you rip off the heatsink, what a surprise...

Re:smokin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh come on... "heat issues"? Yeah, it smokes if you rip off the heatsink, what a surprise...

when you rip the heatsink of a p4, it doesn't burn up. only the athlon does.

Re:smokin!

[shimmin]

However, for the money it would take to put together a comparable Intel-based machine, I can buy a spare processor with cash left over.

Therefore, even in the unlikely even of total loss of heatsink, I still come out ahead.

Re:smokin!

[pibakic]

...and how often ( in your normal usage of a machine ) do you have need to rip off the heatsink?

Does it ever just fall off by itself? ( No ;o))

Pib.

Re:smokin!

[Anonymous Coward]

when you rip the heatsink of a p4, it doesn't burn up. only the athlon does.

THANKS FOR TEH TIP!!! I'LL REMEMBERRT IT WEHN I RIP MY HEASTSINK OF MY ATHLON!!!!!@1/

Re:smokin!

[linzeal]

I want to see tom's Hardware do an expose on the space shuttle and take off the heat shield during re-entry. That is something that I'm sure worries the astronauts to death.

Re:smokin!

[_Ash_]

Well according to toms hardware in this paragraph
if the the mounting mechanism for those devices is not very sturdy, the heavy heat sink can still fall off because the mounting mechanism breaks off.

Re:smokin!

[Anonymous Coward]

But only the true Intel(tm) microprocessor is compatible with Linux. I don't see how you are coming out ahead at all.
Oh, are you one of those moronic Windows losers?

Re:smokin!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you've read the mentioned article, you'd notice that in the AMD burn-ups, the MOBO was lost too, not just the processor...

Re:smokin!

[alcmena]

It's not a but, it's a feature. (tm)

Now they can start advertising the duel boards as space heaters as well. :)

Re:smokin!

[Scopedog]

Ok guys relax..The ASUS A7M266-D will have that thermal protection they have been talking about. If (BIG IF) the heatsink falls off the mobo shuts down the pc. Actually that has been a feature on some abit motherboards for quite some time..

Re:smokin!

[SquierStrat]

I've seen a T-Bird burn up on the bench man! You'd have to leave it running for a LONG time without a fan to lose the mobo, believe me. Tom's Hardware probably did just that!

Re:smokin!

[ergo98]

In which case the motherboard broke and the CPU burning up is only a part of your problems. To be sarcastic: Do you expect your video card to have "falling heatsink protective shields" to keep that 1lb heatsink from busting it in half in that situation?

Re:smokin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Redundant.

Re:smokin!

[led]

Actually I have secured my heatsink to the power supply so it doesn't fall...
Also sometimes heatsinks aren't properly attached and they fall, it's rare but it happens.

Re:smokin!

[Anonymous Coward]

when you rip the heatsink of a p4, it doesn't burn up. only the athlon does.

Yeah. Don't you just hate it when people run around server farms stealing heatsinks?

Re:smokin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hard drives probably fail more often than your heatsink falls off. How much protection against HD failures do we have? Aside from optional backups and expensive data-recovery services, none. Yet for some reason people are more concerned about a cheap Athlon burning up than their hard drive losing all their data.

Re:smokin!

[sammy baby]

This may gradually become less of a problem. Some heatsink manufacturers (read - the ones making really huge blocks) are starting to abandon conventional ZIF socket clips in favor of bolting the damn thing directly to the mobo. The new Alpha PAL8045 is one such example.

Advantage - the thing is much more secure, and screwing the heatsink on and off can be a damn site easier than wrestling with those stupid clips. Disadvantage: not all mobos have holes drilled in the appropriate places, and taking a power tool to a motherboard right next to the CPU is not my idea of a relaxing pasttime.

Re:smokin!

[Hast]

Not that I've read the follow-up article but from what I've heard it wasn't the AMD chip which was at fault. It's a BIOS bug, not a processor thing. (Not that it will help you if your processor burns, but when you get a new MB get one without a buggy BIOS.)

Uses

[jaavaaguru]

Apart from really fast kernel compiles and stuff like that, what's the benefit of such a machine? Messing around with the usual windows stuff, my AMD K6-450 is about as good as my friend's Intel P4. When it comes to playaing a game at the same time as an MP3, I can see where the MP becomes useful, but as far as I'm aware not many games are written to take advantage of multiprocessor, and although Windows supports it now, it doesn't make best use of it going by reviews I've seen in the past (the one I'm thinking of was mentioned earlies this week, but I can't remember the article title - it showed the MP being 7% faster under an mpeg decode and game playing benchmark test). Lets hope the Althon MP encourages people to write code that is suited to a multiprocessor environment.

Re:Uses

[keefebert]

It is really suited for the server market. It is true that you don't need a dual processor system at home, that is why you can't go to Best Buy and pick one up. They are suited for server environments and men with small -um, I mean- power-hungry users.

Re:Uses

[jedrek]

I can't belive that. I just switched from a dual celeron 450 to a p3-866 and there's a huge rise in the 'feeling of speed', for lack of a better term. Everything goes faster. I burn CDs, play MP3, have a few apps (photoshop, flash, illustrator) in the background and play RTCW and it doesn't even break a sweat. Gotta love it.

Re:Uses

[Anonymous Coward]

Quake 3 engine uses SMP where it can, so that means all q3 powered games (like RTCW) will benefit from SMP.

Compilations will obviously benefit too since they can be nicely multi-threaded, any high and GFX/3d software will make use of it.

i personally have recently bought a dual MP 1.2ghz (the second CPU arrived yesterday, not installed it yet) with tyan tiger MP mobo, mainly for SMP research etc

and the mobo looks so cool with 2 CPU fans on it too ;)

Re:Uses

[gazbo]

I seem to remember a bit of a fad a year or so ago, whereby overclockers would buy motherboards made to take 2 Celerons. Crank up the clock, stick in a couple of Celerons, and you have your own SMP budget system.

Never did see any reviews comparing real-world performance between these machines and an equivalently priced P3 machine though.

Re:Uses

[jaavaaguru]

In Linux on my 450 AMD K6/2 i played Unreal Tournament, played MP3s and burned CDs all at the same time, no buffer under-runs, not jumping music, and the game went smoothly :-)
That said, some of the later Linux GUIs tend to use ridiculous amounts of processor power on that old machine. I know people say these MPs are for the server market, but I'd love to have one under my desk just to see the difference :-P

Re:Uses

[zmooc]

So you couldn't run those apps-that-are-not-doing-anything-at-the-moment in the background before? And now you can? And that's because you have more cpu-power? Are you sure you didn't happen to buy some more memory as well? None of the applications you name are very cpu-intensive as far as I know. They can be (photoshop filters etc.) but usually aren't. Especially not when running in the background.

Re:Uses

[MtViewGuy]

Actually, nowadays a fast way to improve your system performance is simple: get as much RAM as you can afford and install a faster hard drive.

ATX-motherboard systems that use the Intel 440LX or newer chipsets immediately benefit by going to 256 MB of RAM and using the latest UDMA-100/133 hard drives. It's possible to get performance increases of 100% or more because 1) you dramatically reduce the need to use swap space on your hard drive, and 2) data is read and written to the hard drive much faster.

You can also increase performance with a newer graphics card, but that affects games for the most past.

Re:Uses

[ErikZ]

So when are you getting yours?

Re:Uses

[SquierStrat]

I'm not an expert or anything, but if i'm not mistaken, wouldn't the OS's scheduler, schedule the different apps to run on each of the CPU's seperately, would it not? Like i said I could be wrong, but assuming I'm right, this would allow different daemons and such to run on the different CPUs. Also, the kernel can be SMP compiled, meaning kernel processes are sped up. I'm speaking 100% theoretical of course. I do know, that even non-smp apps see speed increases on SMP systems, that's been proven...(read: Tom's Hardware, Anand Tech)

Re:Uses

[Scooter]

Yes you are right, but not eveyone uses computers as a home word processor - this kind of thing is meant to go in med/large servers with things like database engines or high cap web servers running on them.

Again, not everyone uses Windows and Linux has good SMP support. Its not essential for the software to support MP either - most server processes (under the Unix model anyway) spawn additonal processes as load increases, so it's relatively simple for the OS to just share these out over the available CPU's

We currently use Dell servers with 2-4 Intel Xeons in them, which are expensive, so an alternative from AMD is most welcome.

QuakeIII apparentley supports MP, but I've never tested it.

Re:Uses

[XLazarusX]

It's for more than the server market. With my tiger mp dual 1600+ / 512 meg of ram I can capture DV to disk, convert other dv to divx using premier as a frame server and virtualdub as the encoder, and continue to use the pc with no delays and no lost frames on the capture. It's such a vast improvement over my ghz athlon machine that there's no comparison. All this for $650. Not bad.

Re:Uses

[led]

Try using one to work... the fell of a SMP machine is incredible, the whole system is just smother. As a side benefit you get double the IRQ's because of the better irq handling chip that comes with a SMP machine it's great for people with a lot of cards.
Also you get that priceless benefit of being able to compile a kernel super fast or not noticing you're compiling a kernel :-)
In windows I don't have the faintest ideia of the benefits, but that's just me...

Re:Uses

[Ozric]

Yes the swith in Quake is seta r_smp "1" and it does help. But you still get the biggest boost in NT or 2K. The also have smp video drivers. The Linux NVIDIA drivers do not do SMP.

Oz

Re:Uses

[jaavaaguru]

But you still get the biggest boost in NT or 2K

probably because win9x doesn't have SMP support. You were right about the Linux NVidia drivers up until 11/29/2001 when they brought out new drivers. If you're feeling lucky they're not too hard to find. They support HedHat's SMP kernel. here is a link to the RPM file.

And a bit about SMP in Windows... I've heard that for programs to gain massive performance increases in Windows by using an SMP system, the software has to be written to support this. Windows doesn't automatically decide by itelf that because you've got the OS and WinAmp running on the 1st processor that it will run Paint Shop Pro and office on the other one. Whereas in Linux IIRC, the OS has much better control over what processor it wants to run processes on.

Re:Uses

[Anonymous Coward]

But you still get the biggest boost in NT or 2K

I really think he was referring to Linux/UNIX compared to NT or 2K side by side.

The only reason many Unix apps get SMP benefits are because they spawn another process upon some action (ala Apache). More specifically, if a single process has to support SMP (or MP across several hundred processors for that matter),it has to be multithreaded, with specific thought on part of multiple processors.

Re:Uses

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical I'm doing quite a few things at a time amd I find that having a dual processor box makes things more responsive, it doesn't have to be dual latest-chip-out.

Re:Uses

[Toraz Chryx]

actually, Win2k/XP load balances itself over 2 cpu's quite well...

Re:Uses

[Amazing Quantum Man]

Who needs to feel lucky on Google? NVidia makes it fairly easy to find Linux drivers. On their home page, under "Download Drivers", there's an item for 'Linux'. Not particularly hard to find, and (amazingly) it's in the logical place, too!

Re:Uses

[Ozric]

I was trying to say that the Linux NVdrives do not do SMP. Only the NT and 2k, You can check the output when you start Q3. r_smp try to do smp on the VIDEO as well.

Re:Uses

[Thatman311]

That "better irq handling chip" that you are talking about is available on single processor systems. Check out the intel 815 chipset. That chip is called an APIC (Advanced Programmable Interrupt Controller) and each one on average will provide around 30 interrupt vectors each and you can have multiple of these in the system. Of course the OS has to support them but that is a totally different story.

Re:Uses

[Anonymous Coward]

You better get something such as a Promise ATA-100 card to really take advantage of the faster drives. Else, it's still DMA33 for you.

Reliability & Compatibility

[Detritus]

OK, it's very fast. That's nice. How reliable and compatible is the system? Those are my top priorities, esp. for a server. How well does it run with some random version of Linux or *BSD?

Re:Reliability & Compatibility

[zsazsa]

How reliable and compatible is the system?

Given proper cooling - very reliable. The thermal diode in the MP/XP line improves this reliability even more. (Which brings up the question - do these boards fully support the diode?)

How well does it run with some random version of Linux or *BSD?

Perfectly.
The onboard stuff on the Tyan boards is quite standard: Adaptec AIC7xxx SCSI, 3com 3c59x Ehernet.

Ian

Re:Reliability & Compatibility

[GigsVT]

I had trouble getting lmsensors set up at all on a Tyan TigerMP. I gave up after a while, so it might be possible with some difficulty.

The finger test works for me. They get pretty warm, but with stock coolers and sufficient case air flow, they don't get too hot.

Re:Reliability & Compatibility

[LordNimon]

It's not very stable for me. I can't get it to run cpuburn for more than 10 minutes before hanging, and this is with just dual Athlon 1.2s on a Tiger. A friend of mine had the same board running 1.8's, and he had to return it because it wouldn't last more than a week before locking up.

Re:Reliability & Compatibility

[whovian]

I haven't yet gotten around to trying it, but this user seems to have had some success.

Text:

From: otheos (otheos.at@clara.net)
Subject: Re: TigerMP (2460) and lm_sensors, anybody care?
Newsgroups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.tyan
View: Complete Thread (5 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2001-12-05 17:43:47 PST

Was not very simple but finally got it.

You need:
/sbin/modprobe i2c-dev
/sbin/modprobe i2c-amd756
/sbin/modprobe w83781d init=0

Make sure you use init=0 otherwise the system will freeze. Also getting the
new lm_sensors from the CVS and patching/recompiling the kernel works
better (didn't mention anything though).

Now when you run sensors you'll get 77C for the CPU's. but if you change
the sensor type at /etc/sensors.conf under the:

chip "w83782d-*" "w83783s-*" "w83627hf-*"

#like this:

set sensor1 2
set sensor2 2
set sensor3 2

and then run sensors -s (to read the changes) and then sensors again,
you'll see all fans and CPU temps + the Northbridge readings. Voltages are
more complex (apart for CPUs) as the calculation method needs tuning.

Re:Reliability & Compatibility

[Peter Dyck]

Make sure you use init=0 otherwise the system will freeze

Thanks!

I never got the lmsensors to work until now.

Re:Reliability & Compatibility

[Hast]

You need to get bigger / more fans. A friend of mine had problems with his Athlon because it didn't have proper cooling. (The fan was rated at the specific speed, it just didn't do the trick anyways.)

A new CPU fan later and his system is running nicely.

Re:Reliability & Compatibility

[Anonymous Coward]

i bet its a video card issue. Tyan has a list of video cards that will work, most out there cause stability problems.

Re:Reliability & Compatibility

[LordNimon]

I have Antec Jetcools for my Athlons, and I'm using a silver-based thermal compound. I can't imagine what else I can do to cool the CPUs.

Re:Reliability & Compatibility

[LordNimon]

Tyan only lists 4 video cards that are compatible with the Tiger MP. That's ridiculous. If they can only get four video cards to work with their board, then it's definitely a problem with the motherboard, not the video cards.

Re:Reliability & Compatibility

[Type-R]

Get an Antex SX1000 case, put the four face fans in and it'll stay up for weeks... Under heavy load (pvmpovray) mine sit at about 48C, at idle they are 38C or 39C... Case temp is ~10C less then CPU temps... Ditto while playing castle wolf (LOVE the Radeon 8500 AIW, great in X (cvs), great in doze, great video capture, etc)

Oh, uh, for what it matters Linux 2.4.14 with the mostly stock pvm patched povray in debian-unstable. And a pair of XP1600+, Still running the board at BIOS 1.02 since I haven't seen any problems... Longest uptime, 2 weeks.. (Damn games. :)

Re:Reliability & Compatibility

[GigsVT]

Thanks, I'll try it.

complies

[snatchitup]

Well, I'm glad this chip complies with the Linux kernel. Does it comply with any others?

Yeah, but the systems are pretty had to find

[MurrayTodd]

I've thought for a while that the new Athlon MP systems would make great desktops--especially with what a dog the P4 is. The funny thing is that almost nobody actually makes an Athlon multiprocessor desktop. A few places make servers. Otherwise you're *almost* required to build a system from scratch. (It's doable, but still a pain.)

One online company that did have decent looking systems was Xi Computing, in case you're interested.

Re:Yeah, but the systems are pretty had to find

[clarkma]

I bought my dual Athlon desktopn from http://dnuk.com/ - very nice it is too! I'm not sure what they can do about overseas though.

Re:Yeah, but the systems are pretty had to find

[gadwale]

The best site I have found for dual proc machines is Los Alamos Computers.
The prices seem reasonable and they occaisonally put systems on e-Bay.

They were also the ones who built the Utimate Linux Box for Linux Journal and Eric Raymond that was featured earlier.

Too bad they are not accepting any new orders till 2002.

Re:Yeah, but the systems are pretty had to find

[Anonymous Coward]

The best site I have found for dual proc machines is Los Alamos Computers

I went to their site and checked them out, but their cases are beige. I'm sorry, but it's clear these guys are not serious. Anyone who doesn't have black as an option, isn't serious.

Better naming system

[Hougaard]

Simply call it the:

"AMD Athlon Faster than the last one we released"

Re:Better naming system

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, we've already done XP & now MP.
So what's left? HP, STR, INT, WIS, CON ...

I guess they must be RPG junkies or something :)
We'll know when they get to CHR, I guess -- though didn't Bill Gate's charactor sheet give him a 21 in that? I lost the link to SatireWire or wherever it was...

No Smoke without fire...

[pibakic]

Anyone else amused by Hemos' particular choice of words there;

"Watching this thing smoke..."

in light of the recent clips of AMD chips burning with the heatsink removed ( yes I know that it was a bollocks video ).

Just amused me, thats all,

Pib.

Re:No Smoke without fire...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm amazed that people still don't understand how to tell who wrote what. It's the same every god damned time. Look at this carefully:

RendEr writes "At The Tech Report..."

Now, there are a few things to consider here. First thing is that it starts "RendEr writes". This implies that some fellow named RendEr has written whatever follows. Note next how there are both quotes and italicized text. Either one of these would be enough to differentiate RendEr's text from the editor's, but just in case you don't realize it, we have both.

What does this mean? Italicized text (which is also in quotes) was not written by the editor (Hemos, in this case). Roman text signifies the editor's words. You can thus easily tell, at a glance, who wrote what.

Apply the above rules: Hemos did not write "Watching this thing smoke..." RendEr did. It's the same with every story. Every time (barring the rare forget-to-close-an-italic-tag, causing the quotes to kick in as your regognition method.)

Tech Report comment board:

[A_Non_Moose]

look at post #11 ...heh, couldn't have said it better my self.

Considering how well they run thier site and the relatively steady hits, the last /. ing was a "learning experience" ... I think "Damage" put it.

Well, TR dudes, BOHICA (bend over here it comes again...). {In a nice way, of course}

As always, good review... now if only I could get my account there fixed...tired of being an Anonymous Gerbil...sigh.

.

Dual Processing...

[Trillian_Angel]

... dare I commit a computer junkie sin, and ask what is *truly* the point in running dual processors, if when you are already running a decent (1 gig +) board and chipset... the difference is only in a few seconds? I haven't been using *nix systems for very long (I just started running Debian recently) but the first thing I noticed after switching from windows was that the sheer processing power from my 1 gig chipset (with my measly 128 ram) is already fast enough that compiling the kernel isn't a long wait at all... I'm almost afraid to know how fast it would have compiled if I had been running a dual chipset.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'd *love* to be able to use numerous copies of photoshop (if I had windows and if the version of windows I had been using even used both chips... afaik win 98 would get real cranky about 2 processing chips and just use the one), but I've never had the oppurtunity to put that to the test because I've never been able to afford a dual chipset. (so if you know how windows does with dual processors, I'd be delighted to find out.)

One thing I am wondering though, is during the test, they used the Duron chips verses the athlons... its downright obvious which chipsets going to win... If i am not mistaken, the Duron was AMD's reply to the Celeron... a "cheap" chip that lacks as much sheer power as the Athlons. (And if I'm not mistaken, the Duron gives the Celeron a good run for its money).

Now if I had the spare... howver much money it would cost for the chips and board (and some newram to go with it) I would probably buy it in a heartbeat, though I don't know what good it would *really* do a computer user like me... the most cpu intensive program I use is the gimp. (One thing I miss about windows is ps6.0...*sigh*)

What I would like to see is tests of the athlon verses intels latest prize... that would be a competition worth snickering at. I'd like to see intel get blown out of the water.

Re:Dual Processing...

[ErikZ]

"Backing up" DVDs

Re:Dual Processing...

[mr-spam-uk]

We use dual processor machines here as WORKSTATIONS.
Sure I can't see the point if we are talking about having a DP machine at home for your personal use, but in industry time = money. The amount of time our artists spend waiting for photoshop to filter an image or our programmers have to sit and wait for a compile to run IS an issue for us. That and maybe, if they have to wait a while we'd like them to be able to get on with something else in the mean time.
I'm a programmer, I quit frequently have 2 or 3 compiles running at the same time, as I'm hooked up to test hardware downloading a buld and testing/debugging it.

Re:Dual Processing...

[GigsVT]

Thus allowing you more time to post and read on /. at work.

Hehe.

Re:Dual Processing...

[TheCrunch]

I agree. I've got an aging Athlon 900 and it suits me fine. I can program, play mp3s, games, surf the web, moves files across the network, encode DivXs etc.. Do general stuff simultaneously without problems. Applications open in a flash so why should I spend money replacing my mobo, cpu & ram?

I used to want the latest few Mhz like the next person but in the last year or so I haven't seen the point.

Of course I will upgrade eventually, but probably not for another year. My rate of upgrading has decreased significantly from the early days of the P90. Yet technology has been improving at an increasing rate. It seems like hardware has overtaken software and provided I steer clear of bloatware *cough*xp*cough*, I'll enjoy a fast system for a while longer.

I still like to spend money on my computer, but this year I've been buying better peripherals, like monitor, keyboard, mouse, HDD etc..

I guess this demotes me from "Performance Nut" to "Average Joe", but so be it. I've used faster systems than mine and although I can see a difference, it's nowhere near significant enough to warrant my spending money, like it was in the days of the 266s and 500s.

I don't think I'm the only one too.

Re:Dual Processing...

[Pengo]

Yup, I was thinking the same thing to myself not too long ago. I told myself when I bought my athlong 700 I wouldn't upgrade until things hit 1+ ghz. (I know, a while ago).. then , when that time came.. I decided to wait until things hit 2+ghz. hehehe... I finally broke down and bought a athlon 1800+ w/MB + Ram and upgraded my system.. but it wasn't anything crazy... and cost less than 500 dollars for top-notch upgrade.

Now, I probably won't do anything until the CPU speeds reach 4Ghz and when I do that it will be dual processor.

I guess what I would really like to see if a PDA that could double as a workstation via docking station :) Now let the new age of rat-racing begin!

Re:Dual Processing...

[esw]

A friend of mine went from dual Celeron-550s (OC from 300) to a single Athlon 1GHz and he said that the system felt slower.

The gains aren't really in flat out processing speed but rather responsiveness. If you have something running that's hogging one processor, the other one can be used to respond to the user's actions.

Re:Dual Processing...

[radiojock]

Well first Windows98/ME doesn't do MP... ( yes they promised that it would )2k and XP( evil) does do MP, yes there is a dramatic improvement in apps like Photoshop, Quark, and even some games. Unless you are NEEDING MP, there is no valid reason for it, Servers sure. High end graphics stations(2d/3d) sure. Quake3 no. The problem lies with the code, people get lazy and write sloppy bloated code (min install for XP 1.5GB ...)Look for example my Newton2100( yes I know many of the 15 year old /.ers have never seen one)Pound for pound smoked many of my desktops because the code was written really well, or look at QNX.. you get a gui, a browser, and some games on a FLOPPY! ( can we say 10k kernel) it will run on a 386 with 8mb of ram ( no hard disk needed)The simple fact is that Any M$ OS is bloatware, and Linux is becoming the same thing ( you used to be able to install a complete distro from a floppy) now look at it,How Big is my kernel ? wow... Yes I realize that more *features* are being added to the core , but do we really NEED them ? couldn't we add them in later ? We need to get back to a more optimized system, the way linux was in the *old* days . This constant bickering about "who's got a faster proc" reminds me of the old flame wars between macs and PC's. Get over it, I doubt that many of you /. people have ever used anything older than a 486/66. You have no idea what it is like to run an entire company on a Xenix system using terminals ( it was a 386/16 with 16mb of ram) having to ask everyone to log off so that you can run a report... LONG LIVE VMS !!!

Re:Dual Processing...

[tswinzig]

... dare I commit a computer junkie sin, and ask what is *truly* the point in running dual processors, if when you are already running a decent (1 gig +) board and chipset... the difference is only in a few seconds?

If you were running something like BeOS, you would not need to ask this question.

Re:Dual Processing...

[Scopedog]

You know i really hate it when people post comments like this sometimes. If there wasn't a market for this then they wouldn't sell it right? Maybe for you it wouldn't make sense, but to a huge number of developers/graphic artists/power users it would be a godsend. Theres the point. For me i have 2 pcs, an intel 1 gig which i use for daily tasks, and a dual 1 gig which i use for audio/video creation/editing (read: DivX) The difference in encoding can be HOURS..not just seconds.

Re:Dual Processing...

[TummyX]

Um, you should be running NT/2K or XP and not 98 with an SMP system.

Re:Dual Processing...

[Scopedog]

Yes i do remember using terminals at work and yes it was a pain..But please for gods sake dont say that OS's have become bloatware. An install of xp and any linux distro is over a gig, but you have to understand that technology evolves. Features get added and with it the size of software increases. This forces companies to develop newer and faster machines, and thus you have the PC market. Imagine if we were stuck in the VMS days(ok maybe not that far back) we wouldn't have all these wonderful features that modern OS's give us. We would have old/slow hardware just to run our OS on a floppy. I don't want an OS that runs on a floppy..i want a feature rich OS that gives me options and makes my life easier and more productive..all at the same time. So please get off that "i've been around since Xenix days" and realise that technology is about advancement.

Re:Dual Processing...

[Dun Malg]

He said it "felt slower"? Wow, there's a really solid piece of anecdotal evidence.

Re:Dual Processing...

[Ozric]

I know first hand. I always in the past bought SMP from a PPRO 180 to a OC CEL 300A. I just built 2 AMD 1GHZ pluse systems. There is a noticable speed increse in the systems, but you must take into account that I put 7200 rpm drives in the new boxen. The speed from 1GH to 1.4xp is not that big, but it does show in bulid time and Quake render speed. Its kinda strange really the 1GH TBird is fast but like a sloppy fast and the XP1600+ is a smooth fast. This is in X of course, in a Shell you cant tell really.

Re:Dual Processing...

[__aaahtg7394]

personally, i use dual machines because i write software (well, i did... now i'm at a nice crappy support job taking a breather). it's nice to be able to push the machine and not have it get latent. i can compile the source code with gcc's -j3, listen to MP3s, and still surf the web comfortably on my dual celeron 400 (BP6).

in short, MP is really nice if you're a multi-tasking user that runs lots of intensive processing.

Re:Dual Processing...

[MeerCat]

dare I commit a computer junkie sin, and ask what is *truly* the point in running dual processors

If you're developing multi-threaded code (and yes, I know the debate, but for some tasks it is an easier way to make a single-cpu app more responsive) then you haven't really tested for deadlocks and synch problems until you've run it on a multi-cpu machine. Thats my excuse to the wife for buying a dual Athlon machine anyway...

T

Re:Dual Processing...

[gooser23]

I bought a cheap dual processor system back in 1999, and have been using it as my home computer ever since. The mother board is a Tyan Tiger 100 ($160), revision F, and I equipped it with two P3-500's ($240/ea.). At the time this was much cheaper than a single processor board ($100? - i don't really know), with the fastest P3 available (above $650, if memory serves), so I considered it a good buy.

I initially ran win98 on it. Win98 didn't complain about the two cpus; in fact, I don't think it was even aware of them. It just used the cpu in the first slot, and went about its business. I don't know if this is somehow bad for the hardware, but it seemd to work okay.

Then I got my hands of Win2K through one of those usability studies that Microsoft does (I great way to get MS software in my opinion, if you're into MS software). I immediately noticed a performance gain. Not over the win98 setup, becasue I don't think the two compare well, but over other computers at my school that were of about the same specs, excepting of course, that mine was dual-cpu, and the others were single. There was not really an improvement in speed (if you want that, get a faster hard drive interface, IMHO -- this is not to say that 2 cpus are not faster than one, I do get better framerates in games under win2k than win98, but that its not twice as fast as some may think), but a significant increase in robustness. I found that if you want to do a lot of things at once (say, opening many progams all at once: eg, at startup), it would be better handled by an SMP machine than by a computer with a much faster processor. Also, if one task is stuck in an infinite loop, only one processor is killed, and the other is free so your UI thread is availbe to kill the offending task. Or if you have many applications open at once, and only one is doing anything (say you are downloading hella warez with irc, hotline, limewire, etc, you've got winamp blasting tunes, an email client open, anti-virus scanner active, and maybe a ftp and ssh server running, but you're playing Unreal Tournament online with your self -- no network, cant steal bandwidth from the warez -- one cpu can be doing all the "background" tasks, and the other can be working on your game. I've vound that there is simply no competition from single cpu systems in this regard; duals simply blow them out of the water.

I have not had the fortune of using a computer with more modern hardware, so I cannot compare it to, say a 1 Ghz machine, but I bet that mine would be slower in gerneral. But I also bet that mine would handle heavy loads better. So, if you do run NT[5|4.0|3.5] or XP Pro, and if you consistantly stress out the cpu, or you just don't like things hanging up, I'd be you'd like a (even if its a bit slower to save money) dual cpu system.

Re:Dual Processing...

[Buck2]

I moved from a dual PIII 600 machine to an Athlon 1.4GHz, and it sometimes feels slower.

Re:Dual Processing...

[screwtheNSA]

XENIX...*yeah*...Oh how I DO recall SCO's software as well, I was an S.E for a ZDS store and I can remember our file server stopping dead from "overuse" of even our P.O.S system! Runtimes were a joke, LANs were worse than that too. Ever have your Novell hub go down from a puke in the server runtime data logging? How about the P.O.S going dead and failing to report receipts for the entire day? 1988 was NOT the "fun" years so many remember.... It was more torture dealing with customers installing Win-2.X and NOT loading it properly(many tried to install the LAST disk first, and also attempted this using that damned "copy" command..Arrrg! Let's see here...copy A; C;\windows\program files\...La De Daaa......CRASH! Damn it...it won't boot now...WAAAAAA. Gee, come to think of it...wanna trade a "new" 80387SX coprocessor for a P-III slot-1 CPU? As Ralph Cranden said to wifey...One of these days Alice...one of these days...POW, right in the kisser!....THAT'S Xenix my friends!

Re:Dual Processing...

[jabber01]

Well, you can look for alien lifeforms with one via Seti@Home, and you can crack strong encryption on the other through distributed.net, and still have plenty of processing power left over for pr0n surfing, idling in IRC, and compulsively reloading slashdot in the quest for the elussive Frist Psot!!

Re:Dual Processing...

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, you should be running NT/2K or XP and not 98 with an SMP system.

Oh thou heretic! You should be running linux(tm) with an SMP system. This isn't seecolonbackslash, this is slashdot. Return to the infernal pit from whence you came oh beast of satan!

Re:Dual Processing...

[Skuld-Chan]

I don't see how things like this get modded up so high? Do they have their friends do it? It sounds like just a bunch of rambling to me personally. This is the kind of thing engineers sometimes go on and on and on and on about in meetings.

Re:Dual Processing...

[Graymalkin]

How the fuck can you put optimized, Linux, and old days in the same sentence? For a while you had a kernel that didn't work very well and then when it did work well it didn't do a whole bunch. Now you've got a kernel with a shitload of modules that let you do all sorts of stuff. However these modules are configurable. Don't have a RAID device? Don't load the damn module. The increase in the size of the tar.gz you download is mostly from new drivers available. It's quaint to have a 10k kernel but for a PC you'd be much better off with something that actually supported your kilobuck hardware investment. QNX easily fits on a floppy with no hard drive needed because in such a compact state it doesn't have any sort of drivers that could even manage the driver for a hard drive let alone handle the intricacies of a file system. Microsoft and now Linux distros have learned that you need to provide an OS with a very broad range of support. You end up with alot of shit you don't think you need, usually because you don't even fucking know you need it. Microsoft's OS installs have gotten larger because there is a shitload of stuff they've had to add to make sure their system can run everything they say it can. Same with Linux distros, sure you can fit a VERY sparse system onto a floppy but can you actually use it? Hell no. Your whole rant about bloated code is complete crap and I doubt you've ever done much coding yourself. Computers have a very limited set of things they can do naturally, basic arithmatic and they can move stuff. In order to do something complex you need to adjust these limited operations into something meaningful, and have it work in a variety of circumstance. You can start by writing a very straight forward function. It works in small programs that don't do a whole bunch, it is "elegant". Then you use the same function in something more complex, everything goes batshit. Turns out your elegant function isn't so elegant when your system is low on memory or when called fifty umpteen million times. Then sometimes you need to add some abstraction on top of your elegant function to make it run in series with other functions, under low memory conditions, on multiple processors, being called fifty umpteen trillion times. Now apply this to any v.1 piece of code of N complexity. The size of the final compiled binary gets to be pretty big as you iron out bugs and kinks and add a feature or two your intended audience can't live without. Don't get into rewriting all of your code from scratch, that thread was shit to tell a couple days ago. Oh yeah, Quake3's engine is fully multi-threaded and runs even better on a dual processor than it does a single. The framerate doesn't skyrocket but you notice it a bit more with 12 bots set on higher difficulty levels.

Re:Dual Processing...

[Anonymous Coward]

That has got the the most misunderstood paper ever.

Threads are EXCELLENT to extract concurrency from the hardware. Threads suck when you use them java style, one thread per connection. If you have more than twice as many threads as you have CPUs, you're doing something very wrong; you need to either redesign your code to be a few threads, each handling many connections uses event driven interfaces and state machines, or if your language (well, platform API, but some people have been bluring that distinction with their incessant marketing) won't let you do that, you need to pick one that doesn't suck.

Re:Dual Processing...

[Amazing Quantum Man]

Funny.... I ran an SCO ODT2 box for 7 years straight. Only downtime was to add more disk.

Austin Wintower433E (back when Austin was American made, not IPC). Tower was built like a tank. 32MB RAM, Adaptec 1742 EISA SCSI Controller. SCO ODT 2.0. Started with 1GB Fujitsu disk, added a 4GB Micropolis later.

Re:Dual Processing...

[neurojab]

Can you...

1) Saturate your DSL line with LimeWire AND kazaa
2) simultaneously LAME-encode 2 tracks at once, one lame instance per proc
3) Do a kernel compile
4) play a DIVX movie full-screen (no skipping)

...all at the same time? I can with a couple of ancient celeron 300As @464 using SMP and the kernel-preemption patch. I'll wager most of you can't do that with your $2000 P4 systems. Enough said.

Re:Dual Processing...

[Barlo_Mung_42]

My development machine is a dual processor system. One potential benefit is that if I were to screw up and set loose a runaway thread, it would be much easier to recover because the system is only 1/2 busy with one proc maxed out.

Not that I would ever do that though ;)

Re:Dual Processing...

[nmos]

Then something is wrong with your config.

Re:Dual Processing...

[jelle]

Max 50% CPU use for a single process? That doesn't sound like a very difficult kernel patch to make either...

But you don't have to convince me of the pro's of a dual system. It rocks. The only thing I don't like about the AthlonMP is that the MBs are still too expensive. A long time ago, I built one of those dodgy overclocked Dual Celerons for at home. Two C300A chips at 2x450 in a cheap dual slot0 board with slotket converters to socket370. I used it 24/7 and it's still a sufficiently fast and stable system (esp if you look at what it cost), and only now I'm upgrading it to an AthlonXP.

Memory

[Anonymous Coward]

For those with large memory requirements, the Athlon MP using the Tyan boards can only go up to 3.5 GB of RAM (reliably, that is ... there are memory corruption issues with 4 GB), whereas both the Tualatin and Xeon have motherboards that can take 4 GB of RAM. Right now, this is the only thing that is a disadvantage for the Athlon systems (and the only thing that precludes my company from wholeheartedly jumping onto the Ahtlon bandwagon). As noted in the article, memory for Xeon systems is quite expensive, making a fully populated Xeon system significantly more expensive than an Athlon or Tualatin system.

Re:Memory

[avandesande]

The benifit of an extra .5 gb (12%) more ram is hardly noticable. It would be less than the difference between 80 mb and 100 mb.

Re:Memory

[Tower]

Links to backup those statements? I know of a 4GB Tyan / Dual Athlon MP system that has run in a fairly harsh test config for a week or two with no failures yet (heavy DB work). Any pointers to mentions of the corruption would be helpful (is it OS related?).

Re:Memory

[Anonymous Coward]

but if you need to play with 2 2GB matrices at once...

Re:Memory

[Buck2]

The OS needs memory ... maybe two 1.5GB matrices.

Re:Memory

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in the EDA industry. We use Linux with a kernel tweaked to allow 3.5 GB of memory to be addressed by a single process. The last 0.5 GB is for the OS. Once the system starts swapping, the system is basically useless (in those cases, we have to run the jobs on the slower Sun servers with 16+ GB of memory). Right now, we've got a lot of jobs on the edge. Every little bit of memory helps.

Re:Memory

[Anonymous Coward]

If you look on the tyan website (), you'll see that officially they only support 3 GB even though it has 4 slots. Our local system vendor has done extensive testing with the motherboard and has been able to push it reliably to 3.5 GB.

Re:Memory

[RelliK]

Well gee, according to the spec, Tiger MP supports 3GB of RAM. If you are trying to cram 4GB of RAM in it you are going above the spec, so do it at your own risk. But anyway, I don't even see it as a problem. Since RDRAM is so expensive, I doubt anyone would use 4GB of it (or anywhere near). Oh, and the largest memory module I've seen is 512MB. 4 of them give you only 2GB (the boards have only 4 slots).

Re:Memory

[jquirke]

A little offtopic, but, there is no point having that much RAM if the OS doesnt use it.

Does anyone know if Windows XP has limits on RAM amount?

I know Linux 2.2, since it only directly mapped 1G at 0xc0000000 [by default] could only support 1G. 2.4 can go to 4G (even though it directly maps 1G), with PAE (3 level page tables with 64-bit pde's/pte's) can go to 64G.

BSD can go to 4G, since it does not support PAE (well at least in RELEASEes).

So does Windows XP use PAE is my question?

Really Funny Joke!

[squaretorus]

Would the cache-less version of your proposed BI be the "Athlon BI-curious"

ho ho ho

sounds like xp

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone notice how athon mp is similar to windows xp? Btw Everquest users the new expanision has a bug that affects AMD users only

Re:sounds like xp

[Scooter]

erm you mean they both have a "p" at the end??!?

Slashdot?

[TheLink]

I figure it would be pretty useful for running something like Slashdot.

Or for running something that's being slashdotted ;).

For instance I've webapps that do about 30 pages/sec on a single processor PIII-550 (db+app on same server :( ). That's far from slashdot loads (>>60hits/s).

So if the load ever goes up, a Athlon MP 1800+ and 266MHz DDR RAM server would come in handy ;).

Definitely be useful for servers. I'll need to be reassured about thermal safety because our airconditioning isn't comfortably reliable. That said, AMD seems to be moving in the right directions, and it shouldn't be a big worry.

DB servers with Gigs of DDR RAM will kick ass. When you can do full table scans at 266MHz, who cares about the huge second level caches Sun boasts about.

Cheerio,
Link.

Re:Slashdot?

[Anonymous Coward]

If your DB is doing full table scans, your DB designer is an idiot. Even ignoring that, full table scans are always IO bandwidth limited, unless your dataset is so tiny that you could probably just use flat files.

MP / XP

[shut_up_man]

I've been looking at upgrading to dual Athlons for the last while, and was considering running XPs in one of the new MPX motherboards, rather than paying extra for the MP Athlons. Everything I'd read pointed at them working just as well, so way pay more?

Then I see in the Bapco Sysmark test that the dual Duron setup hung in the same place each time - this is the first real evidence I've seen that running non-MP CPUs might be a bad idea... good to know.

Re:MP / XP

[nusuth]

There are numerous problem reports with XPs in thunder boards, and a few reports with XPs in tigers. I decided to give it a try and now using dual XP 1800+s for about a month without any problems. Be careful, they might not work in your configuration.

Re:MP / XP

[shut_up_man]

Wow, someone who has actually braved the waters already... what motherboard are you using, the Tiger MP?

Re:MP / XP

[pkesel]

I've been running the Tiger MP with dual Thunderbird 1Ghz/266 for about a month now.

I've got it set up with 512Mb registered DDR, twin WD 40Gb 7200RPM drives, cheapo AdvanSys SCSI-2 with 2 9Gb drives, NEC 16x burner, 52x CD-ROM. I've got a GForce2 GTS/32Mb as primary display and and Vodoo 4 PCI running a secondary monitor. Sound is a Creative SB Live value. I've also got a Hauppage TV tuner card in it. Network card is Intel Pro 10/100 board. I'm running RedHat 7.2 and Windows 2000 server on dual boot. I installed a 500w power supply to run all that.

So far it's been rock solid. Not a hitch. I've got two Thermaltake Volcano 5 coolers stuck on with Arctic Silver, plus two 80mm case fans. Temperature has not been a problem at all.

I'm not a gamer, so I can't say how it'll do with that. Mostly I built it cause I have a yearly hardware allowance to burn. It's sweet when you're burning and want to do other stuff as well.

Re:MP / XP

[nusuth]

Tiger. I couldn't wait for Mpx boards.

2 procs, 0 brains

[MarkoNo5]

The VIA KT266A chipset blows away the regular AMD 760 chipset by 50%-80%. What's the use of using 2 processors on a slow chipset except for spending too much money or being cooler than your friends because you have 2 processors (and no brains). You will never get X2 performance using 2 processors, so you gain nothing (except instability).
Marko No. 5

Re:2 procs, 0 brains

[hattig]

1) This is not the old AMD760 chipset, it is the AMD760MPX which was released very recently. 760 = 761NB/766SB. 760MP = 762/766. 760MPX = 762/768.

2) Stability

3) Where is VIA's dual Athlon chipset

4) For some applications, dual processors are damned useful

5) 64bit PCI (at 66MHz on 760MPX motherboards)

6) Don't judge based on Sandra memory scores alone. These are only a tiny representation of a system's overall power. Sandra is the only place where I have seen KT266A outperform AMD760 by a significant amount.

6) Without links to backup your arguments, how can we see that what you write is correct?

Yes, I would use KT266A if I was buying a single processor Athlon system this week, for myself. I might think about the SiS740/SiS745 chipset as well though, because of the value provided.

Kerberos, etc.

[Alien54]

This reminds me of what happened with Kerberos.

I can only hope that the proposal in the courst right now for the MS settlement case goes through, the MS be prohibited from issuing "breakware" stuff that breaks other companies systems, software, etc.

I have said this many times before, but I used to like MS stuff alot, but now it seems the everything new thring they do just makes me more and more cynical of them. They have lost my trust long ago and far away.

audio/video

[lumpenprole]

A lot of posts have been asking what the point of MP boards are. I can tell you that MP boards run a/v editing programs a hell of a lot faster than single boards.

This ties in to my desire to get rid of my stupid windows box forever. Has anyone out there tried setting one of these up to do audio or video in linux? If so, I'd love to hear about it, becuase this seems to me to be the last frontier as far as home user linux apps.

Re:where did the MS story go?

[4im]

You mean the one titled "DVD player chipsets to support windows media files"? Yes, I'm wondering, too. Hitting refresh and then getting "Nothing for you to see here. Please move along." is sort of strange.

Yeah

[wiredog]

Wonder what happened? It'd sure be nice if they told us what was going on when that happens. This isn't the first time.

What about motherboards?

[Console]

The Tiger is not overly expensive (for a Tyan), but it still almost eats up the price benefit for a dual Athlon system compared to a dual P3 one. When will someone other than the Mercedes of motherboard manufacturers release an MP-capable Athlon board?

Not that I can afford one before christmas anyway, but I'll be standing in line outside the shop immediately after newyears, and they'd better be stocked then! Orls! Heh...

Re:What about motherboards?

[hattig]

ASUS, MSI, EPoX, etc are all releasing 760MPX based motherboards within the month. These will all have 2 64-bit/66MHz PCI slots and 3/4 standard PCI slots. Some will have network on-board. Some will have 6-channel CMedia audio. Some will have ATA-RAID. Some might even have SCSI. All will support 4GB registered DDR memory, or 2GB unregistered DDR.

There are plenty of places that have listed these - TomsHardware, XBitLabs, AMDZone, HardOCP, etc etc.

Re:What about motherboards?

[dhamsaic]

When will someone other than the Mercedes of motherboard manufacturers release an MP-capable Athlon board?

Today, actually. Be looking for it on Tom's Hardware, AnandTech, etc.

Re:What about motherboards?

[O.F. Fascist]

You might want to try the ones that are going to be coming out soon.

The Asus A7M 266-D looks like the mobo to get.

Re:DVD / WMA article

[PhyrePhox]

I saw it here too... Has M$ insinuated itself into slashcode now? Has Rob been assimilated?

Re:"AMD's Latest Multiprocessor chip?"

[nusuth]

All athlons, including the first ones, are mp capable if you build a chipset to support them. So surrent athlon mps are fourth generation of mp capable chips amd has produced.

Re:DVD / WMA article

[Thowllly]

Here is the url to the missing newspost:

http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/12/1357232.sh tm l

If you want anybody to see this, please mod it up...

and this is where it went:

[TheM0cktor]

Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:50:32 -0500
From: Rob "CmdrTaco" Malda
To: oracle@gothicasfuck.co.uk
Subject: Re: whoosh: DVD Player Chipsets To Support Windows Media Files

Geezus, chill out, its scheduled to go up 15:01 GMT. I think someone slipped up and posted it and then moved it so there were a few comments posted. That occasionally happens.

large models

[hawk]

My models typically run for hours, if not days. Even so, they're smaller than what I want to do, due to the time I wait. Dual processors means bigger models, better papers, . . .

hawk, power junkie

Re:large models

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember, reading a while back, that you were going (future tense) to get a dual AMD system. What motherboard did you end up getting? Or is it still future?

Compile times over time

[pez]

I'd love to see a graph of the amount of time it takes to compile the kernel source using the latest-and-greatest hardware, over the last 8 years or so.

My interest is based on the premise that software isn't "keeping up" with the advances in hardware. (No, I'm not suggesting that longer compile times implies better software).

I wonder how long, for instance, it will take to compile the kernel source in 10 years? Will it be a shorter amount of time because the hardware is so much faster, or will it actually be a longer amount of time because so much functionality has been added to the OS?

Anybody know if such an analysis exists?

Re:Compile times over time

[pkesel]

Hopefully in ten years there won't be a kernel any longer. I'm hoping there aren't even PCs as we know them. The architecture isn't holding up. Surely in 30 years of PC evolution someone's going to come up with a better idea.

Many Uses, In Fact

[BRock97]

Apart from really fast kernel compiles and stuff like that, what's the benefit of such a machine?

There are quite a few uses beyond gaming, in fact. Here are just a couple that made me invest in a dual Athlon 1600+:

• Adobe After Effects. The programs is SMP aware, and it shows. Rendering can now be done and the system doesn't go to complete pot. Saves a great deal of time in the long run.
• Blender. Not that it is SMP aware, but I can now let it render and still use the system. Another time saver.
• Adobe Premiere. When you go to output your finished product, the system is still usable.

Sure, these are pretty specialized, but for what I do, it is awesome. Plus, VC++ just works well with it. Now, don't get me wrong, there are some downsides to SMP, specially from a Linux driver standpoint. Both Soundblaster and nVidia had major issues with SMP and their respective products. Issues that have been fixed, and they were not major, as I just changed out the video card to something else and didn't have sound, so I was able to still use my Linux desktop. Just my $.02.

5-12% max not 50-80%

[tempmpi]

The KT266A is faster than the regular AMD760, but it isn't 50-80% faster. Look at tomshardware.com to look at some benchmarks. Two cpus on a AMD760MPX are clearly faster in most multicpu capable applications than one cpu on a KT266A board.
Using 2 cpus isn't usefull for many applications and two Duron 1ghz on a 760MPX are slower in most applications than on Athlon XP 1900+ in a KT266A especially for gaming.

SMP Forever

[ronmon]

It wasn't that long ago that my BP6 w/ 2x 366@550 Celerons was a hotrod. I'd still put it in a compiling match with a single CPU setup at the same speed.

make -j 3 #oh yeah, baby

Kernel compilation in 120 seconds? Gotta have one. Budget says no :(

Re:SMP Forever

[Mindjiver]

Yeah.. im running a BP6 w/ 2x400@500 here.. Remeber how cool it was to have a WHOLE GHz! Now every kid over the age of 12 have a 1+GHz machine..

Re:SMP Forever

[kawlyn]

I miss it. I had dual 466's @ 550. Then I fried the board and got a PIII 600. Some things were faster but it wasn't as "thick". That's the work I used to describe it.

You could just keep opening stuff and it sat there and took it.

I'm thinking I gonna go for the dual Athlon's soon. Basically as soon as I'm out of the X-Mas debt.

Re:SMP Forever

[green pizza]

I miss it. I had dual 466's @ 550. Then I fried the board and got a PIII 600. Some things were faster but it wasn't as "thick". That's the work I used to describe it.

Speed versus Torque. Like comparing a hot motorcycle to an 18-wheeler. We see the same thing on our Silicon Graphics Octane workstations at work -- some have faster CPUs, some have dual CPUs.

don't do usual windows stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux takes better advantage of multiple processors. It's
nice to run a compile, or mp3 ripping and have no impact
on the system while browsing with galeon and using Kword.

Uses you can sink your teeth into

[yoink!]

Some well designed profession Digital Audio Recording and Mastering software like Sequoia from Sek'd and it's big little brother Samplitude (Under Pro Audio) have amazing support for dual CPU's in a way which isn't considered in most of these reviews. These programs basically emulate a physical mixer, aux effect busses, tracks of audio and MIDI data (999 of them), and effects plug-in. When you run these applications on a dual-cpu system they allow you to assign certain functions to each cpu independantly. For example if you want to run all your effects off one cpu, that leaves the other free to do any mixer automation and file allocation (important in non-linear audio production) that world normally cause hiccups in the effected audio stream. Quite nice really and for those who need it, worth the expense.

Tease

[foldedspace]

Why do they always have to mention the 760MPX? It's not available yet. It's been shown at the trade shows, but you can't buy one yet.

The 760MP's memory bandwidth is a bit low. I hope the MPX version puts a little more in there.

Re:Tease

[Anonymous Coward]

I think they mention it because AMD ships them a free test sample to play around with :)

Scientific calculations

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a dual MP 1800+.

Even with this crazily fast machine, my simulations run for hours, and can take a week or more. That's just for one run... I do that many times. (And yes, the codes do scale very well onto multiple processors.)

Some of us use our computers for what they were originally meant for... computing things. For us, multiple fast processors can be very useful! :)

AMD prices ! ouch !

[updatelee]

" these chips could help usher in a new era of cheap dual-processor desktop systems "

does anyone look at prices vs looking at speed anymore? or did that go out of fasion during the IPO days?

AMD MP 1800+ (1.5Ghz) = $450cdn x 2
Tytan 760MP $660cdn
Total $1560cdn

Intel Tualatin 1.2Ghz = $360cdn x 2
SuperMicro Dual-P3 Tual. = $350cdn
Total $1070cdn

sure the AMD is faster, but it aint cheaper, I wouldnt consider it as releiable either, this is brand new technology here, intel is proven, I dont trust it.

cheap dual-processor desktops? what the hell are they talking about? cheap? intel P3 is cheaper. are they comparing it to intel P4 xeon? give me a frigg'n break, who do you know has a desktop computer they consider 'cheap' that is running dual P4 xeon's ! the xeon is the most over prices crap made to date, shortly followed by AMD MP.

Chris Lee
lee@mediawaveonline.com

Re:AMD prices ! ouch !

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoa you are smart arent you, compare different specifications then claim that they arent cheaper!
The AMD is a third faster at least for a third more in cost (assuming you havent tried to skew your prices too).

Re:AMD prices ! ouch !

[Anonymous Coward]

Impaled Nazarene - I'm the Killer of Trolls

Sun goes down and trolls crawl out of their holes
I am waiting the fuckers with my blow-torch

chorus:
I am the killer of trolls, I show the fuckers no remorse
I execute trolls by burning down the fucking fjords
Sun goes down - execution time
Time has arrived for mayhem, destruction and extinction!

Re:AMD prices ! ouch !

[Anonymous Coward]

>>$450cdn x 2

Heh heh, he used Canadian dollars ... isn't that kinda like using Italian Lira? "Roll up the wheelbarrow Marge, I gotta pay for this coffee"

Re:AMD prices ! ouch !

[O.F. Fascist]

If your concerned about price you go AMD.

If your concerned about performance you go AMD.

If you want a cheap SMP solution, you go with Durons Durons.

If you want the fastest SMP solution, you go with Dual Athlons.

You compared two "mid level" chips that arent even the same speed. And yet you want to say AMD isnt the cheapest. Go back and look at the numbers again, idiot.

Re:AMD prices ! ouch !

[youroldbuddy]

I've always bought Intel for myself. A friend is a graphics gimp. He does all his work on Maya and such programs. He just lost his job but had some money to burn. Out we went and bought a Tyan Tiger and a couple of XP's 1700. Its fast and stable. We overclocked it and he installs warez and bloatware on to it all day. It will lock up in Counterstrike every few hours (of playing) but not as often as my old Intel BX and I only install quality software. Not what I expected really. Other than that it is completely stable for him and he renders all night, sometimes. All in all it looks very stable and inexpensive. I'm waiting for the ABIT MPX. I feel I owe it to ABIT to buy their boards after having my old BH6 for the last 3 years.

AMD 760MPX and motherboards announced today

[jonsmirl]

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoo m/0,,51_104_543~13212,00.html

Motherboards will be ready in February from lots of vendors.

I think you math is FLAWED!

[Anonymous Coward]

You are comparing prices for 1.5GHz processors to 1.2GHz processors.

Not only that... but even Intel has admitted that it is trying to keep the Tuatalin prices down so they aren't more expensive than the P4... so just redo your precious numbers with P4 1.5GHz processors and a motherboard for them and see where your precious price is after that.

Not only that...by SuperMicro? puh-leez... choosing a good AMD MP board and then choosing a cheap-ass P3 MP board and saying they are comparable? don't make me laugh.

Games on a server-type system

[Maddog_Delphi97]

How well does a system like this or a system with more than one processor (basically an SMP configuration) work with games? Assuming, of course, that the operating system is Windows 2000 or Windows XP. Linux has a few games, but the selection's not as good compared to Windows.

The reason why I'm asking is because I've heard that there are issues with games like Black & White not working correctly unless you "force" B&W to run only one processor (B&W may not be thread-safe could be a possible reason) I know other games like Quake 2 & Quake 3 Arena actually work quite well with the second processor, but doesn't "scale" to any processors than that...

Not too long ago, I seriously considered getting an SMP system like this... and decided that games probably wouldn't be too compatible with them.

Re:Games on a server-type system

[pkesel]

Being thread-safe doesn't really apply to an application. An application is either multi-threaded or not. Thread-safe applies to operations within an application. And thread-safe on one processor is the same as thread-safe on any number of processors. If it's got threading problems it's going to find them on one processor as well.

Re:Games on a server-type system

[Graymalkin]

In theory you're correct but in the real world I know from experience that this is complete horse shit. I've got a dual P3-500 which runs Win2k Pro. I only used one processor for a long time because I didn't really much need a second one, the extra slot was for when my system got really smoked by newer badass games. So I picked up a second P3. Switching from the uniprocessor kernel to the multiprocessor kernel fucked up several really basic programs. Some older games refused to run with the second processor when they worked fine with a single processor. Alot of thread crosstalk that fucks stuff up on SMP systems is due to a lack of latency tolerance which is MUCH less evident when shit is running on the same processor falling into line with everything else being run. Stuff that syncs poorly but works on a single processor will die on an MP machine because the two threads are getting really different process priorities and nobody thought to make sure they worked under high latency situations. This is probably going to be really evident in consumer oriented Win32 apps because they're aimed at people running Windows 98 on a single processor.

Re:Games on a server-type system

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got a 2x PIII system and haven't noticed any particular problems. I wonder if your issues with games were driver-related. Creative, in particular, never has shipped SMP safe driver ever, and certain NV and ATI revs have had problems too.

All modern CPUs run more than fast enough for "consumer oriented Win32 apps", so it ain't an issue that your Excel recalc is 2% slower on SMP. What counts is that I can run Quake and SQL Server at the same time with no particular snags with either.

Re:Games on a server-type system

[hughk]

I have 2*450MHz PIIIs, yeah, I know this is slow but I can't afford to upgrade at the moment. The graphics card is a Riva TNT2 but the audio is over a Creative Soundblaster Live. The O/S is Win 2K both pro and server. B&W runs but ocassionally crashes, always though on the audio, thus confirming what someone else has been saying here.

760 MPX was released today, along with the 1900+

[spiro_killglance]

See the AMD press release,

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/011212/110489_1.html

Asus, ABit, Gigabyte and MSI are all promising
760MPX boards.

Micon's 8MB cache SMP AMD chipset?

[Chaostrophy]

Anyone heard any new rumors about this?

Athlon vs. Alpha

[leastsquares]

Are there any "real-world" benchmarks around which compare this new Dual Athlon setup against the 833MHz Dual Alpha setup?

Re:Athlon vs. Alpha

[Jeld]

Now THAT would be interesting. If anyone knows of any resources that compare alphas to intel compatible processers, post a link.

Re:Athlon vs. Alpha

[death_denied]

The gmp speed chart shows that the Alpha overwhelms the Athlon with its very fast multiplication instruction. Other than that, even the P4 performs faster in other simpler instructions such as moving data around (as shown in lshift and rshift). This chart should be "relatively" unbiased since they have worked pretty hard optimizing the Alpha and Athlon assembly routines.

Re:Athlon vs. Alpha

[schenkus]

Your definition of "real-world" should depend a lot on what you want to use the machine for:

If you want to use the machine as a server you will want some server benchmark, for example "specWEB".
There are numbers for both dual AMD and dual Alpha configurations on www.spec.org. They are not exactly for the processors you want to know about, and this kind of benchmark depends a lot on the software (web server, OS) used.
Normally you should use a benchmark for the software you want to run (Oracle / SQLServer / SAP R3 / apache / IIS / ...)

If you want to use the machine for scientific computing, look at specCPU (SPEC_int_rate_2000 / SPEC_fp_rate_2000)

2*Athlon MP/1800+: 13 / 10
DS20E (2*Alpha 21264B@833): 13 / 15.9
2*Xeon 2Ghz: 13.4 / 12.4

Re:Athlon vs. Alpha

[Amazing Quantum Man]

In theory, if your dual Alpha uses the EV6, it should be possible with reflashed ROMS and a socket adapter, to drop the Athlons into the Alpha board. Remember, Athlon uses the Alpha EV6 bus.

The funny part is that AMD licenced the bus from Compaq/DEC and now Intel owns it.

Re:Athlon vs. Alpha

[Cadderly]

The other way around is something that is done by Samsung. They use the AMD 760 and 750 chipset on boards for Alpha CPUs. Samsung Alpha Boards

Summary

[4of12]

So, although I'm a great fan of AMD's price performance ratio for the Athlon, I get from the review that there is precious little perceptible difference in performance for the three highest speed grades of Athlon.

And that memory starvation is occuring.

While RAMBUS has galled everyone by their legal tactics, I think there is a fundamental need for more memory BW for the higher clocked Athlons.

The P4, while over-hyped in the consumer marketplace for MHz, does show that memory speed helps for some apps once the memory transfer gets established.

The Athlon's great integer performance and the apparent lower latency of DDR are nice, but they don't seem to be enough at these speeds.

Apparenty room on the board

[DABANSHEE]

I remember reading somewhere that the reason why they didn't make all slots 64bit was because they couldn't afford giving up on the extra real estate

Love mine

[ZoneGray]

Highly recommended setup... just replaced a 2xP3-550 board with a 2xMP1600. It screams. Board, 2 CPUs, GF3-Ti200, 512MB ECC... under $1K and it worked the first time.

The name...

[Decimal]

Anything but Athlon Pro!

Re:LIAR

[death_denied]

Impaled Nazarene - I'm the Killer of Trolls Sun goes down and trolls crawl out of their holes I am waiting the fuckers with my blow-torch chorus: I am the killer of trolls, I show the fuckers no remorse I execute trolls by burning down the fucking fjords Sun goes down - execution time Time has arrived for mayhem, destruction and extinction!

A sound of hope

[theKiyote]

I have to thank the writter of the article. This really makes me feel a little better about the two processors (amd mp 1500+) in the mail. Before I ordered them, I havent even heard of the mp series. They're a lot cheeper than the intel P4 counterparts. --theKiyote

Going from a dual to a single cpu.

[BrookHarty]

I just migrated from a dual p3-800 to a single amd 1800. I regret it now. I/O is still a bitch on single CPUs, Copy a large file in the background and open another explorer window, and explorer waits. Programs load quicker, but the snappy task switching isnt there. Couple tasks using all the cpu and you feel it.

Thou on the bright side, with a gf3 ti500, im getting 100fps in tribes2 at 1024x768 with all display options set to max. 3DMark2001 actually runs in the 30+ fps in the highres demos. I dont do CAD or Modeling but so far, The cpu+gfx card
combo just tribes2 playable, its been collecting dust for a few months now.

Re:Going from a dual to a single cpu.

[TheGratefulNet]

Copy a large file in the background and open another explorer window, and explorer waits.

blaming the hardware for what is a M$ limitation?

Re:760 MPX was released today, along with the 1900

[Xoro]

Well, possibly some bad news on the MPX front...

The Register is reporting that the MPX chipset, while announced today, won't ship in volume until 2Q02.

The good news is that by that time, Athlons will have gone .13u and the heat on a dual system will be a bit more tolerable.

Why Linux is better at multitasking ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not know but it still is...I have access to both an Nt5(w2000) and a Linux box and Linux seems much better at multitasking still.

Why is that ?

I think you english is FLAWED!

[James Skarzinskas]

Try using proper English, idiot.

Corsair makes 1GB DDR modules

[Anonymous Coward]

Check harder, I have seen Corsair 1GB DDR modules but they were "On order" and about $800 a piece.

Ehh...

[bani]

There's no MPX benchmarks because there are no MPX boards available yet.

And the link you posted doesnt even have any MP benchmarks...

Question about moderation...

[Karl Cocknozzle]

... dare I commit a computer junkie sin, and ask what is *truly* the point in running dual processors, if when you are already running a decent (1 gig +) board and chipset... the difference is only in a few seconds? I haven't been using *nix systems for very long (I just started running Debian recently) but the first thing I noticed after switching from windows was that the sheer processing power from my 1 gig chipset (with my measly 128 ram) is already fast enough that compiling the kernel isn't a long wait at all... I'm almost afraid to know how fast it would have compiled if I had been running a dual chipset.
For you, probably not useful enough to be cost effective, but heavy duty gamers/mid-range server guys on a budget need this sort of stuff.

The real reason the Athlon MP is coming to desktops is Windows big fat bloated ass. As you so eloquently pointed out, 1 ghz is plenty of power to run a real OS. Windows chugs with 1ghz....

To the people who modded the above as a "Troll"... Is this because:

1) You think Windows isn't bloated.
or
2) You think I'm wrong about it multi-processing being not-cost-effective for AverageJoeUser to have on his machine.

Either way, why didn't you write a response instead of moderating down mine which you disagreed with? It would seem to me that the purpose of moderation is to make more interesting comments more visible, not hide away comments you disagree with.

Re:Question about moderation...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Cocknozzle,

I found this comment while metamoderating and noticed that it had gotten an "Offtopic". I have no idea why. So I said it was "Unfair".

For what it's worth.

last post

[Anonymous Coward]

This discussion has officially ended.

Thank you for being a participant.

PCI-64 is not PCI-32 Compatible

[Cadderly]

I don't think that the PCI64 slots are compatible with standard PCI cards... look at this picture of a MSI board: MSI as you can see the polarity lock is reversed on the PCI-64 slots.

Re:PCI-64 is not PCI-32 Compatible

[GigsVT]

Those are PCI64- 66Mhz slots. You can't put a normal 32bit PCI card in those. You can however put a 33Mhz 64bit PCI card into them.

In a PCI64 - 33Mhz slot, you can put pretty much anything in it, even a normal PCI32-33Mhz card. These are what the Tiger has

ECC Support?

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the reasons we've been staying away from AMD-based solutions is that VIA KT133, KT266 and KT266A do not have ECC memory support. Does anyone know of an Athlon board with MP support that does ECC also?

2 * XP may not work on MPX boards

[Anonymous Coward]

Over at www.storagereview.com, there's a thread (http://www.storagereview.com/jive/sr/thread.jsp?f orum=1&thread=20853) called New Dually Board for AMD, with this comment:

My new Asus A266M-D won't work in dual mode with AMD-XP's - at boot it reports:

"AMD XP CPU detected - forcing single CPU mode"

According to Asus this is a requirement being placed on manufactures of 760MPX boards by AMD. Only MP CPU's will be allowed to run in MP mode unless someone can figure out how to trick the CPU model detection?

I guess they need to force people into the high profit MP chips!

Counter-Strike lockups

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude.. your CS lock-ups are most likey to to the extra amount of work your cpu and mb and gc are doing during that game. You probably have a heat issue

Re:smokin! Tom's Hardware and IBM drives

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to see Tom's Hardware admit that there's a problem with IBM 75GXP hard drives. All we get from Tom's on this issue is SILENCE!