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Europe Adding RFID Tags to Euro Currency
An EETimes article a few days ago reports that the European Central Bank is planning to add RFID tags to euro bank notes. This would allow each bill to be tracked whenever it is used, and if the chip includes writable memory, to even record its own history.
These bills must be expensive to print, though. One question remains: how does one read the chip? Wireless? Huh... Perhaps this could be used in tracking down counterfiters (sp?). Anyone else think of uses for this?
Everything is mainstream now.
At least maybe we'll no get ecash. If the physical stuff is traceable the primary disadvantage of the elctronic stuff is gone. Not that I have anything to hide ;)
And yes, that's a pretty poor silver lining.
I wonder if they'll declare the currency worthless if you were to tear out the chip (or otherwise fry it - how possible is that?)
Lord Pixel - The cat who walks through walls
A little bigger on the inside than out
It's interesting that they will actually be able to measure the velocity of money which is a key concept in some economic theory...
However I don't think that the government really needs to know where it's money has been... This seems a little intrusive into individuals lives.
--------------------------------- Born Again Bourne Again Believer: New Life, GNU/Linux Be Free!
Maybe zapping the bills with a tesla coil would help. Would a defective tranceiver still be accepted as legal tender?
What's in my wallet is my business. If a storeowner, or anyone with the right equipment can read how much money I have in my pocket, that bugs me. Heck, for all I know a well-equipped hacker/mugger will be able to spot targets using them.
people need to hide their vices. therefore they need (untraceable) cash.
once again, porn and drugs will withstand the onslaught of governmental interference.
One small run in a microwave and the electronics are toast. and until you make the currency required to be rf active at all merchants the idea is stupid.
the ONLY way to remove counterfits and "illegal activities" is to go to a credit only system but then people will find ways around that too.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I wonder how they would survive spin, wash, dry, and iron cycles. or drying in a microwave oven.
Their has got to be a wide range of applications that would ruin the chips. I can see civil rights volunteers subotaging currency in the safety of their homes, a sort of grassroots thing.
the thousand lira notes in italy used to have a thin silver wire embedded in them. It was really easy to pull those out.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I saw this on the news a couple of nights ago. Hitachi makes the RFID. According to Hitachi the chips only contain 128 bits of ROM which is most likely only enough for a unique ID to trace the product or passport, etc. Perhaps another flaw in their design is the use of the 2.45GHz band which is already in use for 802.11b and microwave ovens. What's going to happen if they scan my passport while my portable microwave generator is outputting 100mW? That's surely enough to interfere with all RFID chips in the local area. I am also curious as to how these devices will power themselves considering they are .4mm^2.
All security measures will be defeated. Besides, crime is becoming more "virtual" - that is, people would rather break an unpatched IIS server and nab 10,000 credit card numbers than try to counterfeit $10,000,000.
What's amazing, is that it took no less than three minutes for Slashdot to demonstrate the futility of those electronic tags, i.e zapping currency in the microwave.
The company I used to work for was dealing with a lot of Motorola smart card technology, and implementation schemes for it. One thing I don't get about smartcard/chip/cash technology is: Why bother with writable memory on-chip? It sure is useful if you're individualizing peoples' ID cards at a convention, but otherwise there's no point to it.
If someone is tech-savvy enough to hack the on-chip filesystem and change the path that piece of currency followed, then it wouldn't make a lick of difference where the cash has been. If they're tracking it at airports, train stations, or even every doorway, then a centralized database can handle the data mining without worrying about someone changing the non-static ID tags.
Although, increasing the price of currency production with useless features is pretty helpful if you plan on printing huge quantities of it... so watch out.
"Look at me, I invented the stove!" -- Ben Franklin
or more like hurdles and issues. First off, I see too many ways this could be used for Pure evil. As many have already said, the Gov knowing where, when and how I spend my money is none of their damn business (though they seems to think it is).
Since I'm going to guess that the RF in RFID means radio frequency, how long before your average pick pocket/mugger is using a detection device see just how much is in your wallet. An rightly so, I think that the store owner needs not know what's in my wallet either as I already can't stand it when they try to sell you up, imagine how much harder they will try if they can see how much your holding on you.
Now, onto the hurdles. I think they will have a hard time getting this to work since things like water, micro-wave emmissions, the crushing force of being sat on in a wallet are all factors that could destroy an RF device. Top that off with the need for a system that can read that signal while also keeping it secure so that average criminal's can't use it for thier own needs.
Another question would be, how much will this technology cost per bill and will it have an effect on the bills worth? While Europe seems to be very heavy in the way of tracking it's people (camera's everywhere) I think this is one way that will give them nothing but fits.
Trying to be different, just like everyone else.
How many times do they need to find bills from your ATM withdrawl in the pot dealer's deposit bag before they knock on your door?
This idea was written up at DEC SRC years ago if I am not mistaken.
Now you can buy $100 worth of Euros and get $200 worth of RFID gadgets to sell and hax0r at your leisure. Hot damn.
-- Dan
If you want an insider's view of the origins of the European Central Bank, run, don't walk, to amazon.com and order a copy of this book.
Attempting to track the flow of currency is fully in line with your typical French bureaucrat's view that all good comes from the state, and that the state must be in charge of all aspects of life.
IMHO, the voters of the UK, Denmark, and Sweden are going to look very smart in the very near future.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Anyone who can come up with something that will pass Money Abuse Tests has an amazing product.
Like for the US dollar, a machine rolls up the money into a very tight cylinder, then crushes it flat. The holograms that were being tested were totally destroyed by this test, so they don't appear on US money.
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
I noticed some people asking basic questions like if RFID is wireless. RFID (Radio Frequency Identification) is inherently wireless, it works on the same principal our AC power transformers use. There is a coil inside the bill that is a certain number of turns. It is energized by a high energy coil placed where the bill needs to be tracked. The high energy coil induces a current in the bill's coil and causes it to modulate a unique stream of bits on a preset frequency. It's pretty nifty technology, it never needs batteries and will work indefinitely.
This technology has existed in access control systems for years. It's important to note that they're not 'chips' in the common sense of the word... they're actually coils of copper etching.
The coil is 'read' by emmitting a radio signal and reading the reflected frequency from the coil. This makes the currency immune to all forms of defacing short of cutting the coil out of the currency or cutting it in half. If the bank was smart, the coil spans the entire currency so it's impossible to complete remove it. It can be read from up to twenty feet away. However, it's difficult to discern different signatures or how many signatures there are when the coils are in close proximity to each other.
And no, microwaves will only serve to ignite your currency. But hey, if you've got money to burn, go for it, honey.
1 Strippers garter
2 Strippers garter
3 Strippers garter
4 Strippers garter
5 Strippers garter
6 Strippers garter
7 Strippers garter
8 Strippers garter
* End of History
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
In theory this could make counterfeiting very difficult, or simply raise the stakes, as counterfeiters ply Central Bank employees for materials to counterfeit with. Still, with enough sophistication, merchants would be able to scan money and stop the bills quick. A possibility you wouldn't find in the US with all the whining merchants would put forth on increased costs of doing business, etc.
I wonder how well they'll survive a trip through the washer and dryer, though.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Transporting large sums with relative ease was one of the concerns with the high denominations (500, 200). Hoever in some parts of Europe (Austria, Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands), people have been using such for a long time and they make up a significant amount of the currency moving about, thus they're in.
troodon.net
The face value of currency is already close to meaningless. Something about "The Gold Standard" not having been followed in quite some time.
Coins, if I am not mistaken, already cost more to mint than their value. Given inflation and the devaluation of the monetary units across the world over time, it should come as no surprise that the production cost of larger denominations of currency outpaces their face value.
The real trick is to look at how often a unit of currency changes hands, and how durable it is over time. This in combination with its face value will give some idea of the true cost and/or value of the physical currency note or coin.
If I could invent a paper bill that could withstand 50 years of travel, exchange, and (well, let's face it) abuse, that was incredibly rip, tear, and wear resistant, could withstand repeated exposure to water, moisture, solvents, and other environmental nasties, it might not matter as much if the production cost per unit were ten times as much as the face value.
Great, I thought that as long as I used cash only (most of the times) for my consumption, I can keep my consumption behavior pretty private. That last means is being "worked on" too, eh?
Good thing the technology is not very practical at this point, and I doubt it's going to be implemented, as it is described in the article.
Seriously though, does the government need to know that I spent the hundred euro note that I got from the bank at the widget store or whatever? Refuckindiculous. I guess those who want privacy will have to switch to prepaid visa cards, purchased with the change made from a fairly anonymous purchase (use a 500 euro note to buy some donuts or something?)
Why bother with the hi-tech solution when so many people are willing to do it voluntarily?
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
IT doesn't take much, really.
I'll fix your computer if you fix my car.
Let's not forget good, old-fashioned gold...
I still think it would not be overly difficult to bring about a regional gold-backed currency. Companies might even do it.
The only impotant fact would be the gold content of the coin would have to be standardized.
1/20 oz, 1/10 oz, etc.
Prices would be in oz of gold... Yes, the value of an oz would fluctuate with the local market.. but it would be an interesting thing to do.
I don't know about you, but I'm going to solve this particular issue if it comes to the U.S. by paying for everything in pennies.
;)
And just in case anyone saw Mr. Show with Bob and David, no, they are not Ass pennies.
I really should get some sleep
-- Dan
Umm on what grounds ? Since when did the possession of cash become a crime ? I have close to half of that in cash in a fire proof safe in my residence. Feel free to go and try to get a warrant for that...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
There have been serial numbers on notes as long as I can remember. This is the same concept using new technology which will make it possible to digitally sign each serial number.
The scheme will only be used on large notes since those are most likely to be subject to forgery. Applying it to all notes would be to costly but will probably be possible in the future.
This is no secret project(as indicated by the article) since it has been in the news several times in Europe.
RFID is just one of the technologies being examined. It has advantages as well as a pile of disadvantages that other have noted here. Certainly whilst you may spend 1 Euro to protect a 500 Euro note, even that is pretty expensive.
Although in the US, people like to use non-cash methods for large but legal sums, say for a car or a house, in may parts of the EU, people will make major purchases in cash, yes even houses and these people have their cash legally too! Well, some of them. Certainly, there are a lot of quite legitimate users of high value bills here.
The problem here is that counterfeit money costs the issuer. It certainly costs the Fed for all those dud greenbacks. However, no central banker likes to tell how much counterfeit money is being picked up (I have asked). WHther it costs enough that it justifies RFID tags is another matter.
The EU certainly likes to support domestic technology, i.e. Siemens and Phillips, but there are limits.
See my journal, I write things there
I don't know if there is any metric on how much illegal commerce adds to a country's GDP, but I'm guessing they will find that it is significant if they can track illegal transactions. Of course, the definition of "illegal" may be pretty broad. If I give my brother a bill for a gift or I buy a jacket at a garage sale, someone should be counting the money I give them as income. Now that all those transactions can be tracked, I wonder if they would be considered "illegal" if they weren't reported as taxable income.
It seems that the post office can track not only where mail is sorted, but exactly when it went through a specific sorting machine and what went before and after. This came out in the anthrax investigation where they could say when the lady in CT had her letter pass through a machine and which letters came before and after.
I'd suggest tracking money is even more interesting the tracking mail to many in a position of power. Are you all sure it isn't already happening -- there is little incentive to tell anyone.
say about 30 years? that way I can live the rest of my life out without having to worry about having a chip imprinted in my skin that can be tracked by anyone who wants to throw money at a receiver? or having my wallet surveyed by a potentiel mugger? Or have my cars speedometer turn me in for doing 80 down the turnpike???? Please folks, someone invent a time machine so I can live in 1971 and drive a friggin barracuda?
#include sig.h
Most of your negative points (especially invalidation of currency) are ludicrous and most likely illegal. Do you really think that banks have the power to invalidate your money just because you have poor credit? (hmm....it seems that you don't have enough money, so we'll just invalidate the money you do have). regular consumer banks do not have that kind of power.
As for "standardizing" on the US dollar, that just counters your point of the benefits of trading amongst many nations. The US dollar is currently the most used currency on earth, but most western countries would never allow the US that much control over their ecconomies, esspecially when they already control so much of it(think mcdonalds and coke). A tracking chip on the currency is a pretty useless idea anyways. More and more transactions are being done electonically anyways.
I'm not saying the euro is all good, but its not all bad either. The only thing that surprises me about the euro is why some of the stronger economies there are joining it...especially Germany.
Which crackhead modded this troll up as "Interesting"?
</flame>
Speculators and traders may make money on fluctuating exchange rates, but they don't generate any wealth. The wealth is generated by businesses that under the current system, don't have any good way to predict what their supplies will cost, or how much they'll be able to sell their finished product for. Both of these vary because of the actions of speculators and traders.
In fact, the only variable under their control is theur wages bill. Guess which is going to get squeezed when the speculators and traders decide to increase the costs of your supplies while decreaing the value of your finished product?
<counter-troll>
Of course, this wouldn't matter in the USA, because the USA is run for the benefit of corporations. The EU appears a little more concerned for the livelihoods of its citizens.
</counter-troll>
--
E_NOSIG
Requires: Anvil, Hammer, Nail or Chisel.
Locate chip, place bill on anvil. Place nail or chisel on chip. Strike nail or chisel with hammer. Repeat if necessary.
Trolling is a art,
Say they bust a drug dealer on the street. They take his money, find the bills that didn't come from his ATM, and find out who had the remaining bills last. I'm betting they'll try for a court order to raid the homes of the people who last had those bills. If you happened to give one of those bills to a street vendor who then gave it to the drug dealer, then, well, thanks for helping out your government - hope that door isn't too expensive to replace.
The moral of this story is that the system can't work until every point of currency exchange is surveilled electronically, which will effectively be never, which means the information will always be meaningless at best. The risk is making assumptions about the validity of the data (which I'm sure They will).
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I wonder if you'll have to upgrade your cash's firmware when they find security flaws.
Imagine that, you go to pay for something and the serial number has changed to "L337". Sheesh.
The clothing and laundry machine industries are already gearing up to put rfid tags in garments. The idea is that your washer and dryer will watch what you put in them and then behave accordingly or warn you that you are about to turn all your underwear pink.
Oh look, I went searching for a link, and even found one on slashdot
Come on. I've read five notable comments in this thread and they all say in effect "How can I disable this protection to prevent the government from spying on me?"
Yes, I am concerned about my privacy. I find it really painful that so many people have my phone number, my email address, and my home address. People send me offensive ads every day which I wish I could refuse without inviting more.
This said, why are people instantly opposed to money with copy protection? I have no objection to this money unless something goes severely wrong, for example:
The money requires me to input my name and address after acquiring it.
The money breaks if I don't take good care of it.
Retailers refuse to accept it because the copy protection is so burdensome.
The wierd thing is that existing money often has these problems. When I go to the bank and withdraw cash from my account, they ask me for my name and address on the withdrawal form. If I leave a twenty in the wash a few too many times, it might fall apart - sometimes you can get people to still take it, but often not. And most inexplicably, the new US $100 bill that has so many copy protection features on it - I can't use it anywhere! People simply refuse it and say "there's too many forgeries around." Isn't that odd?
If the ECB puts a 1k data chip on their money, and the money still works like normal money, I will encourage it.
This isn't much different from the system already in use in the United States, where the metalized strips in our currency are encoded magnetically. The proposed system for the Euro is potentially more secure, given that information couldn't be read nor written without the correct codes, but is just as big a problem with regards to privacy.
Maybe I just don't have enough vices requiring anonymity...and those that do are free...
GTRacer
- C'mon McD's! Put in the debit terminals!
Defending IP by destroying access to it? That makes sense, RIAA/MPAA. Go to the corner until you can play nice!
Could 'disable' all of the money in a bank vault. Seriously, if somebody wanted to undermine the currency, all they would have to do is wait somewhere that large amounts of currency would be passing by and set off an EMF pulse that would fry any circuitry that is put on the cash. Do it to enough money, and nobody would trust it anymore.
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
It should be two smaller coils with a completely different signature, or not?.. given that a small hole in a bill shouldn't upset anyone.. of course depends on how many coils you'd put in, wouldn't want it to look like a swiss cheese.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I'm sure some of you already know about wheresgeorge.com... but if not, its a really fun thing to do. Get an account, and voluntarily track your own bills by entering the serial numbers. Each bill gets marked, and hopefully somebody else will see it and enter the serial numbers again. I've had a bit of fun with it, seeing my bills travel around the country.
But seriously though, one of the benefits of using paper currency is its anonymity. I buy my copy of 2600 every quarter with plain cash, just because I"m ultra paranoid. Hard currency is used in ways that will boggle the mind, so its somewhat hard to believe the problems that would arrise from money tracking here in the US.
Its probably unconstitutional anyway.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
I wonder what happens to one of these chips if it goes through the washing machine? Would give new meaning to laundering money!
I'm not sure if i'd want to know how many strip joints my money has been in before it gets to me!
Great scam! "Someone give me a stack of Euros and a reader, and I promise I'll spend my time trying to defeat the RFID tag!" More likely you'll be spending Euros and giggling at the goof who's waiting for your "test results".
Virg
First of all: the Euro was not pushed by the banks. It was done by the governments.
Second: the European currencies have had fixed rates for a few years now and I still have to see any negative effect of that. The countries that are allowed to join in, have to have a very stable currency. Only fluctuation within a very small band was allowed. If a currency would fluctuate too much, the EMU would act upon by buying or selling the currency. It has been like this for many years now and so far this cooperation has only had benefits. In fact the system has even proven to work already waaay before we came up with the Euro. So why is a fixed currency not fair? If we decide we want to cooperate more, why not fix those rates? Or would you rather have a different currency in every state of the US? That would be more fair by your rules, wouldn't it.
Third: I don't see how the Euro allows any more control than the money we had before does. The cash is just the same, it only looks different and has a different value per unit. There is no additional tracking-system AT ALL. The banks don't get any additional control either, they only change Currency X into EURO and that's it. So what exactly are you talking about?
Next: in what way is the dollar any better than the Euro? Please give me some arguments before saying so. They're both just currencies. Money. Something to prevent us from having to trade cows for computers. It's nothing more than that. The ONLY reason why a currency would be any better, would be that it's value is more stable compared to the value of other currencies. Maybe the dollar is more stable (I don't believe it is, but I may be wrong). One thing I can tell you: the Euro is most certainly a lot more stable than 16 different independant currencies. So that would make the Euro better than all currencies we're using now here in the EU.
Last: What does the amount of civil rights organizations have to do with this? Are there really more of such organizations in the US (as compared to the EU)? Please give me some facts. And then think about why this could be....maybe they're simply needed more in the US?
0x or or snor perron?!
It's not the government tracking the purchase of a loaf of bread that worries us.
How would you like to explain to your boss, or your wife, why the police came by to ask how money you withdrew from an ATM ended up in the possession of a drug dealer? Or a prostitute? History is absolutely clear on this: the "big fish" have the resources and motivation to bribe officials (or "trade" information for leniancy), it's the little guy who gets hit with 10-years-without-parole mandatory sentences or has their car (or house!) confiscated as "tainted"... and innocence is often no defense. With the "seizer gets the goods" laws, there's also clear evidence that many (not all) police deliberately target the weak for institutionalized theft - ask anyone who had their car confiscated on some southern interstates because they couldn't prove that the car (which does not have constitutional protection) was "innocent."
The stupidest thing is that these laws will have absolutely no impact on the low-level criminal activities. The *only* thing criminalization does is close the courts to people with small disputes, forcing them into big disputes. If a guy rips you off in a used car sale, you can haul him into court, possibly even file a criminal complaint. If you're ripped off in a drug deal of the same size, your options are to either absorb the loss (and be marked as an easy target for future abuse) or kill the bastard. Gee, is it any wonder why "low level drug dealer" and "dead" appear in the same sentence so much? Ditto "street walker" and "victim of sadistic mass-murderer"?
The proposal, today, is to only mark large bills. But it won't be long until the standard bill coming out of the ATM is marked (due to inflation and cheaper second-generation technology). Once the bills are marked and tracked, some grandstanding politician will be unable to resist the "get tough on street crime" temptation, esp. when data farming machines are powerful enough to track this information.
It will only catch the stupid drug user, john, etc., but what will the street find as a currency to replace it? I think most of us would prefer the occasional streetcorner transaction than, oh, a 2400% increase in petty burglaries because the street trade now uses small untracked items like CDs and the like.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
This post is almost too dumb and paranoid to address, but I'll do it because it was fun to find the holes. Let's look at some of them.
1.) The money doesn't "ping" or anything else. It's not self-powered at all. You need to pass it through an EM field to get it to respond. Developing an EM field of sufficient power to activate these chips such that they'd be able to return a signal more than ten feet would (A) destroy the chip and (B) kill all of your houseplants and (C) require a generator bigger than the patrol car.
2.) Drug money doesn't spend time "outside the legitimate banking system" at all. This is one of the main reasons why money laundering is so popular. Having boxes of cash is a nice thought, but most crime figures don't like having liquid assets like that because it's fragile, easy to steal (if Boss X has $100,000.00 in a safe it's right difficult to tell that his bodyguard is skimming C notes) and it draws attention.
3.) Having cash is not a warrantable offense. There are those who will tell you horror stories about being detained for having lots of cash, but if you ask all of them to leave except the ones who were detained on a warrant you'd be a lonely person. The police driving by the house would need a warrant to drive by and check (if it were possible; see number 1 above) as radio communications are protected from illegal search unless they're detectable to the general public.
4.) Assuming for a moment that 1, 2 and 3 above were by some miracle suspended, here's the rub. Radio waves don't generally pass through safes. So, you could put said cash in a safe, and it would be, well, safe. Hell, if you're really worried, you could put it in a bucket of water.
Remember, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean you're worth tracking.
Virg
How long will it be before laws are passed requiring every transaction to be logged against personal ID? Like, transactions becoming illegal unless they're logged? For example,
"Daddy, can I have 45 euro for a new skirt?"
"Sure sweetheart, here you go"
"But daddy, you've gotta scan the money over to me, or the shops won't accept it"
"Oh sorry, can we do it on your computer, mine's in the middle of something?"
"Sure"
"What do I do?"
"I gotta scan your passport first. Then, I gotta scan my student card, then we scan the 45 euro on the government website, only takes 20 secs"
"Man this feels complicated. I remember the good old days"
"But daddy, we gotts stop the terrorists!"
-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
The system can handle stacks up to about ten chips high, and can read 40+ chips in a matter of seconds, determining where on the field each stack is, and the individual serial number of the embedded RF tag in each chip.
The problem of being able to scan people as they walk through the door and determine how many notes of what denomination are in their wallet has not yet been solved...
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
There is a word for mints operating at a profit. They're called counterfiters. Are you laboring under the assumption that Quarters are 25x as expensive to make as pennies? Does it cost $1 to print singles and $100 to print hundreds? The cost of minting a penny or printing a bill is irrelevant.
The amount of money in circulation is fairly balanced and well controlled. If the Gov't just minted money when it wanted more, in addition to lower taxes we would have runaway inflation.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
When it's the most simple and cheap way to check for counterfeit, sure as hell they will.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Monte writes:
:-)
... someday.
> Why would a mint operate at a loss? What possible reason could they have
> for spending six cents to make a nickel?
I'm sorry Monte, you are entirely correct on this. As qintar was kind enough to point out in a subsequent followup post, I was indeed mistaken, at least where U.S. Currency was concerned. I grew up in Canada, and from what I remember of a tour of the Royal Canadian Mint when I was a young child, the cost to produce a penny there had managed to exceed its face value.
Interestingly, the Royal Canadian Mint *did* re-work the materials in their pennies such that they were no longer pure copper, thus reducing their unit cost. Perhaps they got pennies into the profitable range again. I tried finding out the current productions costs at The Royal Canadian Mint but was unsuccessful.
As to why they might produce a coin at a higher cost than the face value: Again, I'm supposing that if the sole client was the government of the country that holds the minting and stamping operation, and the cost of the coin could be justified as amortized over a number of years of predicted average use, then it might make fiscal sense.
> And would you be interested in buying this nice new twenty dollar bill
> for the low, low price of $35.99? Hell, I'll even autograph it!
Sorry, I'm not a soverign nation or a coin/bill collector. Nice try though!
Trying desperately to drag this back onto the original topic though: If they smart-chip money, how are they going to handle the break in chain of hands when the smart-currency trades hands through one or more private individuals? I can understand businesses being equipped to take in funds, and if they know the identity of the person they're receiving the funds from adding that person's id and their own to the funds trail, but if they don't know, or the person refuses, all they can do is add their own ID.
What prevents bills from changing hands between several private individuals?
1. Bill printed/initialized (gods that sounds odd) date/time
2. Passed to: Bank of America, St. Louis Missouri ATM # xxxxxx date/time
3. Passed to: John Q. Public SSN xxx-xx-xxxx date/time
4. Passed to: Mr. Submarine # xxxxxx date/time
5. Passed to: Jack Priest (imagine he's really a priest)
6. Depositied by Bazooka Showgirls, Kansas City Missouri date/time
See the problem here? Between (5) and (6), the bill actually exchanged hands from Jack to Dave, then Sarah, then Andy, then Bob, then Mark, then Me who went to Bazooka Showgirls and stuck it in some nice dancer's g-string, but the trail shows that Jack Priest was the last person to handle it before Bazooka Showgirls depositied it. Whoops. Sorry about that smudge on your character that came out when you were called as a character witness in that rape trial. Pity about justice denied. I'm sure they'll work out these glitches
Unless you are giving you brother more than $10,000 a year it isn't taxable.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
Perhaps this could be used in tracking down counterfiters
Well, only if the counterfiters are stupid enough to put real chips in their fake money...
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
FYI, the "new" US bills have holographic ink, micro writing, water marks, and UV ink. I don't think it has metal twines or special embroidery (except the UV ink is really a UV ink thread, different "color" for each value of bill, different place too).
The "new" bills have been out for a while as $100, $50, and $20. The $10 and $5 are kind of recent (this last summer?), and the $1 isn't out, or at least I have not seen them.
Eh? The show about the "new" bills talked a lot about how they decided the paper was very good and very hard to match, and not worth changing, and the same for the ink (except for the holographic part, and the UV part).
Argh! And I had better text to go with it, too. I should have saved a copy for just this moment. Alas, I'll just recap my concerns from my submission:
1. Because of cost, this will be probably implemented first only in the larger denomination bills. (stated in the article)
2. The security model is flawed. The authentication process encrypts the serial number, so without the algorithm you can't tell the bill's denomination. (You can track the bills by the unique encrypted number, irregardless if you know the algorithm).
3. You put these two facts together, and the mere presence of an RFID bill in your pocket means you have at least ~USD$200. If you have 10 RFID bills, you've got at least $2000. Without bypassing the encryption, you can pick off the most worthwhile people to rob.
4. Fortuantly, these are readable only at a short distance (~12 inches), but two antennas by the bathroom door will scan a whole lot of people.
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Your recent submissons
Here are your recent submissions to Slashdot, and their status within the system:
2001-12-19 16:14:26 RFID in Euro Bank notes by 2005 (articles,money) (rejected)
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
"the European currencies have had fixed rates for a few years now and I still have to see any negative effect of that. The countries that are allowed to join in, have to have a very stable currency. Only fluctuation within a very small band was allowed. If a currency would fluctuate too much, the EMU would act upon by buying or selling the currency. It has been like this for many years now and so far this cooperation has only had benefits. In fact the system has even proven to work already waaay before we came up with the Euro."
Nice theory, but it wasn't applied properly. That was why Britain withdrew from the exchange rate mechanism (ERM). About 10 years or so ago, there were several runs on different currencies. IIRC, Greece, Portugal, Italy(?) and Britain. The British Chancellor of the Exchequer (sp?) spent billions in just a few days trying to prop up the pound to keep it within its fluctuation boundaries. In the end they gave up, and allowed Sterling to free-fall. They couldn't do it by themselves and the help from France and Germany was only half-hearted. Then a run was started on the French Franc. That was when Germany finally stepped up to its ERM responsibilities and helped protect the French exchange rate.
"Next: in what way is the dollar any better than the Euro? Please give me some arguments before saying so. They're both just currencies. Money"
The USD has a proven track-record of political independence. The DM used to too. Other European countries such as France and Italy have no such reputation, and are infact infamous for their politically meddling with the currency. The Euro will have to prove its political independence before it will be trusted in the same way that the other benchmark currencies are (GBP, USD, almost ex-DM, etc).
The Euro has some interesting challenges to its stability ahead, such as the over-heating Irish economy that requires higher interest rates versus the very weak German and French economies that require low interest rates. In the US, regional recessions are countered by freedom of movement (people can move to a better part of the country). In Europe, this is supposed to be possible but cultural barriers such as language make this harder, and of course, some places (e.g. France) make this kind of thing harder with their traditional govermental bureaucracy and red tape.
It's understandable that 7-11 may not always have change for my $1.99 purchase that I pay for with a $100 bill, but as long as I'm willing to let them keep the change, it seems there is no legal way for them to refuse to accept my bill.
Or have I missed something?
Slightly off topic, but, don't the US bills have a magnetic strip in them that identifies the bill's amount? ($5, 10, 20, 50, 100)... It's not unique to the dollar, but from what I understand, an airport security scanner could reveal the amount one is carrying. (OK, I admit, I remember "The Lone Gunmen" on an X-Files episode talking about it). Is this just a conspiracy theory or is there any truth to this? It seems possible, IMO.
You're missing a key point here. The person is not charged with a crime, and the legal system puts the burden of proof on the state to prove that he commited a crime.
But cash is seized. The cash does not have the same legal protections as a person, and the burden is on the owner to "prove" that their money is "innocent." The owner is free to leave at any time - without his money, or car, or business, or whatever else was seized.
This is an impossible burden for most working people. There was an especially horrific local case a while back where a coed's boyfriend borrowed her car *without her permission* and used it to drive to buy pot. The car was seized "as a criminal instrument," and the woman was told that to get her car back she had to post a bond equal to the value of the car - and there was some weird catch-22 where she would have probably been out either the car or the money regardless of the way the case was resolved. She couldn't get to her classes or work, and even if she could she would need to use her tuition money to get her car back.
So this woman, convicted of absolutely no crime, charged with absolutely no crime, morally guilty of absolutely no crime other than possibly having a poor choice in boyfriends, was forced out of college and forced out of her job "to fight the drug trade." And she was damn lucky - there are other well-documented cases where women were sentenced to ten fscking years in prison without possibility of parole for no reason other than havnig a poor choice in boyfriends. He was a low-level dealer and able to negotiate a reduced sentence by turning on his suppliers, but she was a chump who got caught with a kilo stashed in her bathroom - without her knowledge or consent - and the "get tough" laws require blood.
Do some people win? Rarely, but it almost always requires broad press coverage and well-attended rallies. The only local case where I know this happened involved a popular sub shop seized and closed for several days - and threatened with forfeiture - because a single employee received money for a 'shroom sale at work. There was never any allegation of drug transactions occuring at work, much less the knowledge and consent of the owner, yet their business was closed and nearly seized.
Somehow I doubt that a similar transaction on the law on the US Attorney would result in his house being seized, his family thrown onto the street, and the prosecutor threatened with disbarrment...
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
The easy way to destroy a chip would be with one of those high-voltage zappers that are sold for self-defense. Several tens of thousands of volts will cream any MOS semiconductor. However, I can see merchants refusing to take such 'damaged' currency if it won't register on their readers, so wiping the chips out may not accomplish much except force you to take your deactivated money to a bank for replacement.
The EU is scary - Europe is often held up as an example (by the liberal media and academia) for the U.S. to follow. What short-sighted fellows our liberal friends are. Europe brought us facism and the Nazis. Why should we be so eager to follow in these kinds of footsteps? Already we are hearing of people being lashed out at by the EU for merely speaking out against the EU.
Sounds like 1984 to me - "obedience is freedom" or somesuch. It's giant lumbering soon-to-be-dictatorships like this that America needs to stay as far away as possible from - this includes the U.N. - the EU is the testing ground for many of the U.N.'s plans, IMHO. If the U.N. succeeds in its grand design, any sovereign qualities a country might have will be null and void (ie, no freedom of speech, no right to keep and bear arms, etc.). We are already seeing freedom of speech being stamped out in the EU and I'm sure it will only snowball.
Who benefits from this tracking of money? Besides those in government positions? Oh, sure, the usual spectres will be held up as the reasons: terrorists, drug smugglers, and child porn rings. But, what are the REAL reasons to track money to this degree of accuracy? Hmmm? Yes, EU is marching towards a full-on regime. Hopefully, weasely little bureaucrats in America don't try this here. That "Know Your Customer" crap they tried to pass here a while ago looks like small potatoes compared to this. You see, it's not about those spectres that are always raised - it's about making sure they can collect all the taxes they can, or having the ability to know where all your assets are, and possibly seize them - in other words, to control your life as much as possible.
Technically the mints and BEP don't operate at a "profit" or "loss" since the Federal Reserve bears the cost of making money. The Fed isn't making a "profit" either, because as new money goes into circulation it replaces old money and meets any demand for incresed liquidity:
"Typically, most of the newly printed currency replaces currency destroyed by the Reserve Banks because it is unfit for further circulation. The remainder is printed to meet expected increases in the demand for currency. The Federal Reserve pays the BEP the cost of printing new currency and arranges and pays the cost of transporting the currency from the BEP facilities in Washington, D.C., and Fort Worth, Texas, to the Federal Reserve cash offices across the country. From 1990 to 2000, the number of Federal Reserve notes in circulation increased 57 percent, which represents an average annual growth rate of 4.6 percent."
Si vis pacem, para bellum
The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
Coins do not cost more to mint than they are worth. When this happens, the government changes the composition of the coins. U.S. cents used to be made of bronze; now they are made of plated zinc. Any leftover bronze cents are worth a little more than a cent in metal content but probably not enough to melt your collection and try to find a buyer. During World War II, cents were made of steel, because copper was in short supply. Nickles used to be mostly nickel; now they contain quite a lot of copper. Quarters and dimes have been sandwiched for some time; they used to be solid.
One of the reasons that none of the proposals to eliminate the U.S. cent has made it is that the U.S. mint makes a 26 million dollar profit every year off of them.
Oh, and I assume you're on a little endian box, too. Lots of assumptions, eh?
Anyway, here's the new Linty Fresh(TM)®© version.
long k[]={0,178};char*p=(char*)&k[1];main(){while(p---( char*)k)putchar(72+((k[1]>>(p-(char*)k)*2)&3 |(!((p-(char*)k)&1)<<2)));}
It's just uglier.
John
John
Then again - that is in the land where a 17 inch monitor is a half grown lizard.
The article is extrapolating WAY too far from what they know.
Now people are ink-jetting integrated circuits onto paper, it's interesting to try that for this application.
Already reasonably useful would be a way to easily identify individual bills once they are back at the bank.
They started putting barcodes on the Dutch notes a while back. This would suffice for that purpose. I'm not sure wether the Euros will have those.
I'm not sure what an RF ID would help. Would every shop suddenly have an RFID tag reader? No.
They also speculate something about recording transactions. Well, it's going to be tricky to hide those batteries and GPS reciever in the banknote....
Roger.