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Techie, Wrench-head, or Both?
An Anonymous Coward
throws this spanner into the works by asking: "OK, a response to another Slashdot question has made me wonder... Can techies fix cars? I know computers very well, I can fix VCRs, and I can wire home theater systems but I don't know the slightest thing about my car. I am not sure I even want to but I thought some other Slashdoters might want to way in on that. Could it be the whole "getting dirty" thing with cars? What do you think? How well do you know the inner workings of that thing that sits in the driveway?" I used to think I liked taking anything apart, not just computers, but after spending a few frustrating afternoons maintaining my car, I figured such things were best left to the professionals. However, I may be a minority in this, based on the responses from the last auto-related question.
Too much grease and oil. I don't know about other geeks, but I hate to get grease and oil and rubbish all over my hands because it's hard to clean off your hands, and then you get it on your keyboard :-(. I do have a car project though, but it will be a once off to remove all the internal combustion engine related gear in my car, and replace it with an electric motor. Once the old stuff is out it shouldn't be as messy.
David
If some other Slashdotters want, "a way in" and they're into "getting dirty", I want to stay the hell away from them.
Perhaps you meant to say, "...some other Slashdotters might want to weigh in on that. Your spelling and grammar teacher would be ashamed.
Cars, are smelly, murderous, obs1337 industrial equipment that nobody
thinks are cool anymore. Except vaporous yuppies in SUV's
All the hip techies ride bikes to work because they are smart and know that
a lifetime of sitting behind the keyboard with no exercise will be shorter and less happy than one
with exercise.
Plus which bikes are scrutable, like Free Software.
I grew up in an auto shop. Replacing spark plugs, changing engine oil. Rebuilding trannys. I am equally at home with a car or a computer.. but on the other hand I have friends in the IT industry who are tops in their field but are uncomfortable even checking their own oil or filling their washer fluid.
If you can't figure out my address, just drop me an e-mail and I will explain.
Most hackers I know dabble in lots of things, including boats, cars, and other definitively hackable items.
Personally, I have a '78 Ford F100 waiting for restoration/modification.
I had a job doing tech support a few years back and when it was time for me to go home, my starter motor went out. I came back the next day with a new starter motor and installed it in the pouring rain. I walked into the building to return the wrench set to the sysadmin and clean up, at which time my supervisor asked me what I was doing there on my day off. I told him that I had to change the starter motor on my car and put in a new battery. His jaw dropped and he said, "You mean you can fix cars too!?!" For a couple of days he was going off about how I was able to fix my own car. To me its just another device. I guess its 'cause I was taking things apart and sometimes putting them back together from the time I could hold a screw driver.
I don't own a car, but I have worked on my friends' rides, and I don't like it at all. Computers don't have messy fluids, and they aren't grimey inside. It's the neat freak side of me that gets so bothered about cars. I don't like to fix vaccum cleaners, garbage disposals, or any of the other stuff that's always ookey.
On a technical level, cars are neato keen, like any machine. I enjoy learning the technical details of how they work a lot, but the practical application of that technology is far too messy.
there's more than one way to do me.
I enjoy working on both cars and computers. I work as an admin fixing stupid student and professor problems, and then I go and fix the car 1966 Mustang. Last week I had the engine stripped halfway down to fix a head problem. Not the easiest thing in the world, but as long as you don't mind getting dirty, and can follow instructions it's pretty easy. A lot cheaper too :-)
Let Microsoft know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship
it seems no one has mentioned a (perhaps the) definitive work on this subject (among others): Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence
It says that one of the major things wrong with society today (and yesterday and tomorrow) is the "leave it to the pros" mentality that many people adopt regarding 'technology,' be it a computer, a leaky faucet, a motorcycle, or a car. I think most slashdotters have a DIY frame of mind when it comes to computers, but I think limiting that attitude to computers alone is confusing. One of the key elements of a curious, enthusiastic, and gumptionful attitude is that it encompasses anything and everything it comes across. So, before you write off car maintainence, think about the zeal with which you would attack a similar problem on a computer, think about what knowledge and tools you are missing to perform said fix, and get to it!
While I suppose that getting particularly dirty working on a car might be objectionable to those of you who are stereotypical non-bathing geeks, I don't seem to have much trouble spending 5 minutes with a jar of hand cleaner to save several hundred dollars in "professional" labor.
Most car troubles are fixed with simple, bolt-on parts. Starters, water pumps, alternators, and most commonly brakes, are bloody simple to replace. A couple of bolts, a wire or two, perhaps a belt and you're done - with enough extra money left over to buy a new bigass hard drive.
Suspension parts are easy. I replaced a rear wheel bearing on my Beretta in about a half hour. Shocks took slightly longer, but were still a walk in the park.
Oddly enough, I often find it easier to work on my car's hardware than my computer's. I don't want to remove every wire connecting my PC to the outside world when I work on it, just as I don't want to remove the engine from a car to change the spark plugs. Thus, I find myself crawling under desks, with my head and shoulders tucked between two shelves, and using my third elbow to install a new DIMM. Whereas, on a car, one simply puts the thing in gear, drives up a set of cheap portable ramps, and sets the brake to get at the guts inside.
Diagnosing a car is much like diagnosing failing computer hardware in terms of thought processes required. Does it crank? No. Does it click? Yes. Measure the voltage of the battery - if voltage is sane, the battery is charged and it's either a dead starter motor or a bad connection. If not, the battery is discharged, either due to age, abuse, bad alternator, or a bad connection.
Simple stuff. Turn the power on a PC. Does it boot? No. Do any fans spin? Yes. Check connections, re-seat memory, CPU and anything else that plugs in. Does machine still not boot? Yes. Measure power supply voltage. If it's sane, toss the motherboard.
I treat internal motor problems differently, but I also treat component-level problems on, say, a flakey motherboard differently as well. Which is to say, that I don't care enough to learn how to fix them - if I burn a piston on my car, it's either getting a different engine, getting fixed by someone who knows what they're doing, or being thrown away. Just like I would do with a motherboard which, for some reason, stopped doing DMA (though I'd be most likely to replace it first, and seek professional opinion later).
Point is, it's the same thing. The parts are heavier, and often dirtier, but I've never had sneezing fits from an oil-covered spark plug boot. The cruft inside of a 5-year-old PC is a different story.
And, besides, there's interesting problems to overcome. The vacuum resevoir's mounting tab broke off on my car. I noticed sthis ometime after the front tire had worn a hole into it, and delayed repairs until sometime after it had fallen off completely. Symptoms? Strange noises at odd times, and no control of heater vent selection under acceleration.
By the time I got around to doing something about it, it was not obvious at all where the thing originally mounted. I found a replacement resevoir and a length of suitable tubing at a junk yard for (literally) a couple of dollars. Using stout, expensive wire ties I attached it to one of the shocks inside of the front bumper cover. Fed the new vacuum line along the loom with the a bunch of wires and other stuff to the check valve where the old one connected.
The new location offers good protection from road debris. I'm satisfied that it won't ever break loose or become disconnected, unless I hit something hard enough to dislodge my teeth. It is thus better than the original.
Same thing with the stainless steel strap I fashioned together with grade 8 nuts and bolts to hold the muffler in place, rather than the rusty, and poorly-riveted iron strap that came from the factory. The OEM strap, given a few Ohio winters, didn't survive the impact of the car falling a few inches when the rear wheel bearing snapped. The new one, which I made from stuff I had sitting around, should outlive me, regardless of what type of abuse I deliver to it. I have no doubt that it will be justfine when the car once again goes skidding, bottomed-out, along the roadway as a complete wheel (and half of the brakes!) go bouncing merrily away. [not that I'm looking forward to a repeat of that particular episode.] GM didn't do this because it's relatively expensive, just as Dell doesn't use solid copper Alpha heatsinks for their customers' overclocking joy.
But I'm not GM or Dell. I'll use a copper heatsink if I feel like it, and I'll make up for it (with change to spare) by installing it myself.
Pride, cash in my pocket, and a working automobile that I learned something new about, which is now in some way better than new. What's not to love?
-
Kid-proof tablet..
only thing i do to my car is put gas in it. i don't do the oil, touch the tires(air included), everything is done by someone else. im sure if i had a flat i'd have to call a tow truck. i have never even popped the hood unless there was a mechanic right there. i rarely find myself more then a few miles from home during any given week. ..i just don't feel confident with new things.(and yes im too lazy to reg an account with slashdot). a friend of mine told me about his experience with his first flat..i think he spent something like 3 hours changing the tire..not something i want to experience. i'll happily pay someone else to do it. thats why i make the big bucks ! :)
i also won't hack my tivo. though ive been building computers for 8 years and working with unix/linux since 95
... I can't see this is the sort of thing you can generalise.
Some people here are saying they think cars are too messy, too noisy, too big, whatever. Personally, I just like finding out how _anything_ works. Yes, _anything_.
I'm the kid who dismantled half his toys to find out what was inside them, who dismantles every click-action biro he ever gets his hands on to see what the mechanism does this time (there's surprising variety)... you get the idea. I don't actually do any more severe work on my car than changing wheels, simply because I've never had the time or enthusiasm to learn and I don't trust myself not to get something wrong and cause a dangerous / expensive problem. But I can describe to you how most of the bits there work and talk about new advances in the technology. I've done almost all my own bicycle maintenance and I've spent hours working building model vechicles and components in Meccano. No dislike for the mechanical, just no incentive (yet) to work on my car.
We're all different, we're all attracted to computers for different reasons. My reason happens to be the same reason that I'm interested in cars - and, well, pretty much anything mechanical. Yours may not be. Welcome to the diverse world of Computing.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
or somthing like that. some people claim everything about you is genetically hardcoded...you're bound to be an axe murderer, or bound to be a grand chess-master, maybe even a famous player of go. others claim it's all about your environment and where you grew up.
if your dad (or mom) always changed the oil, headlights, rebuilt the caberator, or even changed out the cam shaft on an 86 caddy (of the small variety, not an easy feat), you're probably going to have a much lesser fear of getting black and greasy. who knows, your parents (like mine) might have gotten you a set of 'grease clothes' from goodwill for when you did maitinence on the vehicle.
at the age of 18, i've dabbled in linux and taken all the avalible comp sci classes at my highschool, set up a home theater system in my room, and all the various stories of "taking apart all my toys as a kid" that you slashdotters out there keep bragging about : ) now for my own bragging...
my dad passed away about 2 months ago, leaving me with his truck, boat, and 83 caddilac...with 63k miles on it. the cam shaft is shot, but the leather interior, power everything works like brand new. i'm in the process of (basically) disassembling the entire engine and radiator assembly to replace said camshaft, so that I can have my 4 door convertable (once i wield in a subframe and chop the top off).
most 'geeks' wouldn't be up to the task before them, if they hadn't been brought up in a mechanical-friendly environment. several other posts have mentioned that most people leave 'complicated things' to the pros. you probably aren't going to be 'mr. mechanic' if you wern't introduced to car mechanics before highschool somehow.
moox. for a new generation.
After all, every person I know which is interested in computers, programming, things digital are lazy. It is nice to say, "hey, line 10 is your problem, you can't asume the string will be terminated. Do this, and recompile", and wait for the computer to finish the hard work.
If you spot a problem inside a car's motor you have to crawl around, lift heavy things, get yourself dirty, hurt yourself with tools and parts with sharp edges and generally waste much time on not-brainwork.
For me the most interesting part is figuring out and solving a problem in theory. If in practice that means I have to do routine tasks for many hours, I usually don't do it at all.
That's the difference between recompilling code and reassembling a motor.
Thanks.
When I was growing up I was always around my uncles watching them fixing things, and lending them a hand if they needed.
Just by doing that when you're a kid won't let the "fear" of working with engines and stuff like that set in to begin with.
I know a lot of people who are petrified of the thought of changing the oil, of changing the air filter, hell, of changing the tire.
It really is just the normal human behaviour of being afraid of new things/experiences.
Oh, and I too was the kid that was a walking disaster when I had a screwdriver, dismantling EVERYTHING in my path, but putting it back together in working condition.
If I don't seat my CPU properly, it smokes, maybe chokes me a little, and if it's an Athlon, possibly even catches fire ;). If I don't seat/attach my brake lines properly, my 2 ton vehicle might not stop and going plowing thru some other 2 ton vehicle, potentially hurting everyone inside both. Car's can be very very dangerous, while computers are only moderately so (aside from the occasional mains power jolt....but that's what we live for right? :).
Yeah, I can fix my own car, but I don't. Back when I was younger (read less money, and more time) I used to fix my own cars. No I don't have the time. Cars were somewhat simpler then too - no computer. As someone else said, suspension, brakes, shockes etc are simple - struts are just about as simple IF you have the tools.
Now days I get my mechanical fix buy BUILDING steam engines - 1.5" to the foot scale. No these aren't electric models - they have REAL boilers, can bull 20-30 people around and coal.
To do this requires I have a rather nice shop - Metal Lathe, Vertical Mill, arc welders, torch set, etc. (Gotta get a surface grinder someday)
So, yeah, I can fix a car
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
Yeah, okay... I'm a nerd. Sure, I can take apart a computer in less than thirty seconds in most every instance. That's just the nature of the beast.
Cars are different. Don't get me wrong, I do work on my car often--usually aided by my brother, who is a mechanic. Why not do it all myself? Tools. A computer can be nearly completely taken apart with a single #2 phillips screwdriver. A single screwdriver won't get you anywhere on a car. We always like to say "the right tool for the job", but in the car industry nearly every job has its own specialized tools. And those tools can be expensive. My brother's tools ended up costing him over $15,000 when all said and done; and that's not even everything.
I think geeks (like most people) simply don't bother working on their cars because that would mean buying more tools. My garage is full enough with two cars, thanks--I don't want half of that taken up with Ryan's Full Service Center. If I can get my car up to my brother's, I'll work on it there. If not, I'll pay to have the service done locally--only because I don't want pay $50 for necessary tools to replace a $15 part and it will only cost me $40 to get it taken care of. Sure, the tools pay for themselves over time, but I'm just not interested in the losing my car's place in the garage.
Long, cute, or funny Sigs are just another form of over compensation, used by geeks, nerdz, etc.
In a car, these things don't always apply. Electricity is intermittent? Perhaps, during a particularly heavy rain, sometimes water gets onto a loose wire and creates a short. And on and on.
Reminds me of the time we were kids and drove to the store with a friend of ours and his little old Italian dad. The car wouldn't start when we came out of the store. So our friend hopped in the driver's seat, and the dad pulled out a hammer, opened the hood, and whacked something. 'Try it now, Freddy!" he yelled. Nothing. Whack, whack. "Again!" Nothing. Whack, whack. Whack! "One more time, I've hit every fucking thing in there." And it started.
I've written code using that approach. :)
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
I thought I was the only one that thought fixing a car was as painful as using a mac!!
I'm always amazed at the increasing numbers of people who do not have the slightest concept of how a car works, much less how to work on them. In years gone by, almost anyone who owned a car had a pretty good knowledge of how they worked. Many of these people were very capable of performing repairs on their vehicles. Fathers (stereotyping: yeah, yeah.) taught their sons how to work on cars and appliances around the home and those sons often spent hours working on the old junkers that were their first car.
Today though, this seems to be happening less and less. But, what is particularly funny is that the geeks have a particular aversion to things mechanical. What makes this especially ironic is that automobiles have changed dramatically over the last five years and are now highly computerized and increasingly complex devices. Indeed, many "old" mechanics would be incapable of working on todays cars, if they did not have the special tools that light a red or green light to tell them whether a part is good or bad. Since the cars have become so computerized and these people are so rooted in the purely mechanical world they no longer comprehend how all the systems work. Instead of carburetors and distributors and gearboxes, there are now electronic fuel injectors, computerized capacitor discharge ignition(CDI) systems, electornically controlled hydraulic transmissions, computerized ABS, suplemental restraint systems, GPS navigation systems and the list goes on and on.
It can be a dirty job but, automotive repair has become so technical that it should be something that todays geeks excel at. Unfortunately, most don't have a clue. I always have to laugh when I see someone who's car won't start. They crank the engine over and over and over. Then someone comes up and says, "Do you need a jump?".
As long as it's something mechanical, it's pretty easy, actually. Especially if you pick up a good manual. A dealer can get for you the same manual their mechanics use for working on your car (ask for the "shop manual" or "factory service manual") - For a Chrysler product, it runs about $90 but you can literally disassemble and reassemble the vehicle with it.
Get some help for the first couple times and from there you'll be all set. Start easy - spark plugs, for example. I started there and now I'm comping at the bit to start ripping the top of the engine apart. Only things stopping me are parts availability (the intake manifold I want is on national backorder), money, and physical resources (rules about working on cars in the apartment complex where I live). Thus far I've replaced my shocks, air intake, throttle body, spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap & rotor, thermostat & fan (and then put the old fan back on when I trashed the new one in a mudpit), added a tonneau cover, trailer hitch, skidplates, and more to my truck. Most of which I did myself.
Once you get into electronics-related stuff, however, or the need to use a scan tool to pull codes stored in the computer to diagnose problems, you're looking at spending serious money or just taking it to a dealer.
It really, really helps to find a club, mailing list, or similar, of people who own the same car yo've got (such as the Durango Owner's Club and Dakota Mailing List). They can be immensely helpful in getting you started in doing your own maintenance, and will recommend to you better parts than a mechanic or dealer will sell you, probably for less money. They'll also give you confidence you need and sometimes even step-by-step instructions. And in the process, get you spending even more money and time on modding the vehicle.
Can techies fix cars? Yes, in most cases, if they want to. If you can install a sound card you can replace your spark plugs. It's just a matter of learning the basics of what's going on in there. Find books and websites about cars and engines, and your particular car and engine, and read them, just like you would get books about computers in general and specific languages, to learn about them. Working on the car is a nice excuse to get out of the house and away from a screen. Maybe start by learning how to change your own oil?
The trouble with working on cars anymore (as opposed to 30 years ago) is that much of the diagnosis and many of the problems are computer-related, from all the chips in cars controlling everything anymore. Which wouldn't be a problem, except that you have to get a mechanic wiht the right scanner device to scan the computer and see what's up. (They aren't cheap.) If a problem is mechanical, you can fix it yourself if you have the right tools. But the diagnosis might require a scanner.
That said I definitely encourage you to learn about cars and try stuff out on yours. It's great fun.
I find there is much more to it than 'fixing it when it breaks'. It's an issue of preventative maintenance -- fluids (not just oil!), brakes, shocks, and other moving parts. I have a tendency to keep a car so long that I need to replace the clutch. If one takes proper care of a car, pays attention to what noise is normal (and what isn't), then you won't end up playing catch-up.
Just like windows systems need regular anti-virus updates and other patching, cars need their attention, too. I've bought the Bentley manuals (2-inch thick complete reference books) for every vehicle I've owned, and (for the most part) I follow the maintenance schedules. As a reward, my cars are reliable, and I'm not shackled to a bank via a car payment. The car is mine, period, and I like it that way, thanks.
Another issue comes into play when one is willing (and capable) of such mechanical and electrical prowess -- used cars are a lot less expensive, and when purchased from individuals, you never have to interact with slimius vulgaris Rex, also known as the (used) car salesworm.
I have owned Volkswagens exclusively for 15 years now, and I've been able to appreciate the engineering that has gone into each one. You can see the thought that went into the evolution from original I-4 gas & diesel engines to 15 V-6 (VR6) to the 1.8t & TDI engines popular now. Each one of these has been interesting to work on (I can't absolutely say "fun"), and at least logical in their assembly. The evolution from mechanical/electric to solid-state systems has been great in my opinion; it makes things easier, more powerful, and more efficient. (I especially appreciate OBD-II)
I find that the more I have worked on my cars, the more easily I can diagnose noises and problems. I won't hesitate to dive into an A/C compressor replacement (with its associated 'gotcha's and other 'mandatory replace' components), and repairing a power window is something I can do in an hour after work.
On the other hand, I watched a fellow try to change spark plugs on a Mitsubishi 3000 GT -- he had to remove the intake manifold to get to the rear 3! The more I have looked at other cars, particularly ones of Asian design, the more I realize how VW specialized I have become. Looking at a Toyota Supra Turbo, for example, I almost felt the same way I did the first time I sat down in front of a UNIX computer -- completely out of my element.
"...America's great minds of today, teaching America's great minds of tomorrow. Poor bastards." -- A Beautiful Min
I'm a madman when it comes to the electrical system, you can't keep me down. But the extent of my mechanical skills is changing big chunky parts like alternators and cv-joints. I don't even change my own oil.
But I defrag my own hard drives!
I am not a gear head, but I play one on TV ;-> (sorry if the non-yanks don't catch the reference...) I am the owner of a small PC repair biz and have been hacking computer hardware for 16 years.
;->) and a Plymouth Reliant where I monkied with the computer to do my bidding. It would beat most sports cars right up to the speed limit and it worked well right up until the engine threw a rod. (The timing was a bit too advanced, even with MSD).
Some previous cars I have owned include a '68 Mustang with a W-engine code (look it up
My current project is a 90 Dodge Caravan with the engine and electrics from a Shelby mated to the Caravan driveline. Not geek enough? The engine control computer will have to be flashed and tweaked, while being driven, by a Toshiba 610ct laptop mounted to the passenger side dash, which I normally use to play MP3s through the built in stereo. Hacking is done with things electronic as well as things mechanical. Why make a distinction?
For the record: No, I do not enjoy the grease and crap, but necessity doesn't really care what I like, and I trust the safety of my family to no one but myself.
Nylon bristle brush, especially one designed to get up at the cuticles (check the women's section of the store)
Good soap. Lava is OK, but "Work Soap" (that's the brand name) by the makers of SoftSoap, is good. There are other, better soaps, usually with lanolin in them. Most decent auto shops sell them.
Finally, there's these prophylactic hand cremes you apply before you get dirty. Makes taking dirt off easier. Gloves would be great, but latex breaks down right away, leaving you with nitrile (they're blue) gloves as about the only choice. However, given the number of sharp corners and surfaces, don't expect the gloves to last long. Other rubber gloves don't provide enough tactile feedback to be of help.
I get the same smile on my face when I finally get some code to compile, or linux to work with some new hardware, as when I hear the rumble of the engine I've been trying to start for the past 5 hours.
You don't get dirty when you work on computers, but you do get the reward of doing double the legal speedlimit when you're done 'upgrading' a car.
Then again, who's ever gotten a speeding ticket while using a computer?
Buy Fast Orange, apply liberally after working on the car.
Bada-Bing -- no more mess on the hands....
Karnal
I've done clutches, brake jobs, pulled out the interior, changed all the accessories (starters, alternators, etc), radiators, drivelines, transmissions, basically everything except motors and axles. Not hard, just tiring and sometimes boring.
you left out "techies who need a wrench in their heads"
Liberty uber alles.
I grew up as a tech-head,and never knew a thing about cars. Mention fan belt or battery and I was lost. I could build computers like crazy though. Well after electronics school, I started getting jobs in Industrial maintenance. I quickly had to start getting my hands dirty, as well as working with some guys who were into cars. So I learned a little about cars from them, and lost my aversion to getting dirty. Now, as an industrial electrician, I've delved into about any mechanical problem you could think of at work. At home, I've changed a car engine out, replaced starters, wheel bearings, several other things, and practically become a brake pro. I shudder to think of how much money I've saved on really easy stuff. To sump up, from my experience, I think anyone who as the natural intelligence to be a computer geek has the aptitude to fix mechanical things like cars, if they can get over the 'getting dirty', and overcome the initial intimidation factor of working on big mechanical heavy-duty things.
Our lead programmer at our office used to be a car mechanic. Funny it may sound, it has really helped out. Car mechanics tend to be able to pay attention to detail very closely, which helps when cranking out a lot of code and then having to go back and debug. Plus, they like to stick with things until they are done 110% so that also helps when starting a new project. Since he is also our main IT guy, he does the networking stuff so his attention to detail helps greatly with that.
Just my $0.02.
-Vic
I've heard it said that mechanic spends 10% of his time diagnosing the problem and the other 90% doing the sweat-work to fix it.
An IT guy has it the other way around.
Sweat or not, I'd rather have my brain engaged 90% of the time, so I work with computers instead of cars.
Also, if you look at what you pay for a mechanic vs what you can get paid consulting, your time is much better spent on computer problems!
But if you actively enjoy getting grungy, hey, go for it...
Ok - let me give you a bit of "insight" on my own personal experience...
By "day", I am a coder (currently Java, but will hack on anything thrown at me - including - "shudder" - DB/C - a COBOL varient - "shudder"). But when I go home, especially on the weekends - things can get, well...interesting...
On the "low" end I have fun with simple mechanical stuff (case in point - the other night I spent a couple of hours tearing apart, in full - a Logitech Trackman Marble - to clean it. It was a friend's, who gave it to me because it was "broke". He lives in one of those icky, dirty, roach-infested "gee-I-wonder-why" "geek" houses. Needless to say, it now works). Up a little higher I do digital electronic design and interfacing, mainly for custom robotic, virtual reality, and "embedded" application. IE - I break out the soldering iron and multimeter, and become a "wire-head". A little further I start doing fab work - breaking out the bigger tools (ie, dremel, saws, drills, etc) - for a variety of projects in metal, plastic, and wood (typically, these bits of work are parts of similar projects in robotics and VR).
But recently (well, it started soon after I got my first and current vehicle) - I have started down a fun, sometimes exciting, sometimes scary, and always dirty, dirty, dirty - path.
I have, with the help of my brother-in-law (whom I have mentioned in my past comments - he's the guy who drives a 10 wheel dump truck, and thinks nothing of using ether to "air up" a backhoe tire) been learning how to repair my vehicle - as I have learned the basics, I have become more comfortable working around and on it, and other large machines. I have always loved machines, but it used to scare me to think about pulling one apart, changing parts, etc. As I have worked on my vehicle, I have become much more confident. I regularly change my oil (both engine, transmission, and differential - ohh, does gear oil STINK!), spark plugs, battery, etc. I have done both front and rear brakes, drum and disc, repacked bearings, changed shocks, etc. I recently helped my brother-in-law remove and replace his clutch on his pickup, as well as diagnose and fix a loose steering wheel (bad u-joint). I have even learned how to do a home-brew wheel alignment!
This man has showed me a lot - he is all the time tearing his dump truck apart (mainly because it is over 25 years old, and has more new parts than original - but you got to keep it running, because that is his job) - I have seen him take the entire side of his engine off, to replace a blower housing on his engine. I have seen him drop the differential and replace it. He is always changing tires on the thing, or repacking hydraulic rams, or doing something. I have seen this man covered, head-to-toe, in dirt and grease working from sundown to sunup - to keep his truck going and provide for his small family. He is my mentor in these things, and I couldn't ask for a better one.
Recently, he has been teaching me a new "trade": metalwork - mainly Arc Welding. In addition, he has showed me how to properly use an OxyAcetylene torch for cutting steel. In the future, once I have regular stick welding down, I hope to move to an Argon gas wire-feed his dad has in his shop. Grinding, cutting, welding - red to white hot steel, flowing down, dripping near your toes. Hot bits of steel flying past your head (encased safely in a welding mask, of course) - some hitting your arms, and bitting like fire ants - that is what I am learning about.
Where to next - well I have been pondering home-based smelting...
Now, you may ask - how will this help me? I am a coder by day, after all - what good can all this do me? One thing, it lets me take my mind off coding - relaxes it, allowing time off to mull over other things, and maybe solutions to a coding problem come to my head because of that. But you know what I look forward to?
Imagine me combining my knowledge of coding, electronic design and interfacing, fabrication, autowork, metalwork, welding, cutting, grinding, and smelting - what can I design? What can I do?
<Smiling, with visions of a jet powered, teleoperated walking robot dancing in my head...>
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
I can usually fix a car, provided I have the right tools for the job. I've never been afraid to get my hands dirty, and have done quite a bit of work on cars, not just my own, over the years.
It may be a little different from playing with computers, but a car isn't going to BSoD on you either.
But it's way too expensive a hobby for me to actually do anything aside from basic maintenance.
So, I change my oil, flush my coolant, replace worn parts, but that's about it, I don't have the time, money or space for a project car, as much as I'd like to have one.
C-X C-S
Cars, are smelly, murderous, obs1337 industrial equipment
So that's why I like them!
C-X C-S
ObSpandexIsFuglyNoMatterHowTonedYourAssIs:
One pro to cars even you can agree with: people don't wear neon spandex while driving them.
Why do cyclists feel the need to wear that crap?
You're just riding a damn bike, not being jammed into a giant anime robot.
(Yes, I know that's not a robot. But it's close enough.)
I'm not much on automotive mechanics, but I'm still a gear head when it comes to airplanes. I've build a ultralight, and an experiental airplane. I've met lots of other geeks that are also pilots and either own, or have built a plane.
Techies are good with electronics also, they develope a feel with them. Cars are a completely different story.
Thank You, Adam Brown
I fix my own cars. Probably beyond the point of sense, occasionally beyond my own ability, for example breaking something else in the process.
Being comfortable working with your hands & getting messy is probably the main difference.
It took me years to be truly comfortable with cars, just as with computers. I had lots of cars that were so crappy that it was unlikely I could make things worse.
They both share:
I take pleasure in their design & execution. Who doesn't like a good hack?
I like understanding how things work, and using that understanding. The question of "why doesn't it work?" is a way to further understanding of how it does work. I also enjoy working with my hands and my mind at the same time.
I have on rare occasion made trivial parts that I needed, and on other occasions used hideous hacks. I have also irreparably broken things.
It's fun looking at something and figuring out "why the hell did they do _that_?" whether the answer is finally money, or a fit of perverse originality.
It's a secure feeling knowing that if you don't understand a problem, it is very unlikely that the professionals will be able to do any better.
Not true of software:
Physical stuff if fun to play with.
Break things. Perhaps only things that can't be used otherwise. They break in interesting ways, if you're paying attention. Besides, they make a great noise.
Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
Get the factory service manual for your car - not the cheapie Chiltons or Haynes manuals, but the ones that the dealer uses. These go into great detail on how to fix things the right way, with very tech-like flow charts, trouble trees, etc.
A lot of the same characteristics of fixing computers applies to cars - take a methodical, structured approach to things and RTFM. Make one change at a time and see how it affects things.
Look at the pretension. Look at how many posts go "well I'm a REAL geek so I like putting everything together, and if you don't there's something wrong with you". You know something, I never go near car engines. Couldn't be bothered. It's not "fear", it's simply lack of interest.
As a school project the two top students in using our CAD/CAM software (in this case MasterCam) were going to design a part for the Ford Windstar. I would go into detail on what it was, but it was so insignificant no one would care about what it was or what it did (no wonder they let grade 12 students build it).
I also mill custom paintball guns, and other misc. paintball parts. And on the occasion built from scratch car parts!
The point is, using geek skills, and losing the fear of getting a bit dirty, one can get pretty crazy with a wrench (this time in a CONSTRUCTIVE way!).
Find Escorts, Strippers, Massage Parlours, Swingers
is an 88' Lincoln POS (piece of ...)
I don't really care much that I can't work on cars, because I feel as if in the amount of time it takes me to learn how to fix it and actually fix it, I could have more than earned the money for the repairman.
But, I do like working on alot of Electronical stuff, right now I am working on my mp3car system, which is ran by a 300mhz Celeron, and *Ghasp* win98 lite and winamp.
So, when my car was on its last legs about 3 months ago, I did what it took to buy a brand new Ford Focus Sedan, with a full 5 year extended warranty. Unless I run this thing into a tree or off a cliff, Ford'll fix it. I may do a little electrical work, like installing a homebrew MP3 player with custom display (if I get an extra $1K and some number of days to mess with it). Other than that, I don't want to touch it.
To me, a car is a tool to take me from point A to point B. I don't WANT to hack it, I just want to use it. And, as my priorities change while I age, I'm feeling the same about computers. I just want to install things and mess with them, not hack the code just so the damn thing will compile. People think I'm nuts just wanting to install binary Red Hat RPMs, but that's me. I can compile if I need to, but I don't like doing it; I'd rather USE the app than hack it.
The responses to this question are quite ;-)
:-) users.
/my/ motive for hacking things is to
interesting. I've always hacked my own things
(toys, audio, autos, whatever), long before I
found the computer thing to hack. In my typical
fashion, I built my first computer from scratch --
just so I'd know what made it tick. It's not so
strange that I'm a *nix hacker after all
I postulate that most people who hack their
things, are *nix (source code, please
I believe
not be reliant on _someone_else_ to save my ass
when it needs saving most. This is certainly
what attracts me to *nix. Putting forth enough
effort, I can solve most any problem on my system
since I can "get under the hood."
How about it? Any of you other thing-hackers
avid *nix users? How many non-*nix users hack
heavily on their cars?
b
What f*ing box!?!?
Out of necessity I learned how to mess around with cars. A lot later I started programming computers. I'm not sure there is any relationship between the two, except they are both what my wife calls 'boys things' (she is a software engineer - but she doesn't know the first thing about a car).
In my youth I did not have the money to get someone else to fix the brakes - I had to do it myself if I was to get to work the next day - and it is not always a simple procedure which you can figure out all by yourself. You need some instruction and you need to develop some kind of a feel for machinery - and I don't think this has much to do with programming or knocking up a PC from a few components.
Having said all of that - I avoid looking under the bonnet (sorry - hood) except for oil/water checks - because I can afford to pay someone else to do it now - I was put off being a mechanic by freezing winter afternoons struggling to change the suspension bushes on an ancient Morris Minor (seized nuts and bolts, north wind whistling right through you, getting dark etc.) Yuk.
... is that it's a lot tougher to find the *space* to store and work on a car than it is a computer. A number of us live in apartments where the landlords get awfully cranky when we go out, tools in hand. A smaller number, such as me, live in apartments in cities where we just don't have the space to fix a car, period. Nevermind that I don't have to pay upteen hundreds of dollars every month just to insure and park my computer.
Something broader, though, is that for a lot in both camps, there's a lot of showing off in it -- whether you're cruising on a Saturday night or bragging about your framerate... and, yes, I know this doesn't apply to everyone out there. But there are significant groups for which this does, and for them, they're simply not as likely to have peers who respect the merits of both, thus they're not pushed in both directions.
If a woodchuck could, would it be too lazy to?
Aside from the fact that many newer cars have the same computing power, if not more, than my first PC. The way one would go about fixing a car or a computer, or at least learning how to fix it is the same. Fixing cars though, I think, is easier than computers. I know a great deal about both and for the most part cars a mechanical and I can see what is going on, all I need to understand is simple physics. Computers on the other hand require a lot more knowledge/experience to diagnose. Such as if I have a soundcard that is not working there can be any number of problems (somtimes known by the manufacturer) weather it is a compatability issue, software problem or harware failure it is not always easy to tell and often requires a good deal of testing to track down what exactly the problem is. On a car though it is much easier to figure the problem out. If somthing is broke then what part is it, I look at it, then I know- not like I am almost certain- but I know that part needs to be replaced. So I go to the auto parts store (calling first of course) get the part I need, look at it before I leave the store and determine right then and there weather or not it is exactly the part that I need. no guessing at ambiguous product descriptions, just simply visual comparision.
"Alcohol, cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" -Homer Simpson
mis-seating a brake pad probably won't result in a runaway truck. hydraulic failure is statisticly a more scarey event and since I value timely stopping, brakes were the one thing I almost always took to a professional.
I grew up helping my father tune/swap engines and I believe it helped nurture my desire to know how everything works. it dedeified the automobile from the moving godhood's most people seemed to atribute thier sources of transportation.... "the sacred -insertmakehere- refused to start, preventing me from getting to work on time"
a mechanic was not a god but a priest (or priestess) that was sometimes mystified by the fickle operation of the car "it never made that sound when I drove it" or "it never GPFed when I booted it" it's all about expirience.
I've changed a timing chain in -40 windchill and am much more gratefull for having a garage to work in now but I would rathing be watching a 5400 rpm 160gig hd doing a surface scan than doing anything under the hood, it's just where my passion lies.
I believe motor heads are just geeks of a different ilk.
"He's a real midnight golfer"
Your electric motor is going to have a lot less kick to it than the old ICE - I hope you're doing this to a fairly small car, and a newer one - they're made of lighter materials that the older Detroit iron. Uh, you do know they build electric car chassises out of lighter materials than conventional ones, don't you? Also, the weight of the bateries will eat up any weight loss you gain from removing the internal combustion engine. Is this really something you want to do?
I'm the stranger...posting to
Lucky me, my wife knows enough about cars so that there's only one of us scratching our heads when a problem comes up. I try to learn from her when I can, but I still don't ever seem to get the hang of them. ("What the hell is the distributor cap again?" etc.)
For the record: yeah, I don't know squat about cars. I hate cars. Cars are a money pit. Anyway, I don't really have a spare car to dink around with. I'm comfortable completely fucking up my computer and then spending a hundred dollars to get it back up and running... but not my car. See, if I screwed my car up real bad, it'd probably end up costing me more than the cost of a whole new computer just to fix one thing! (Well that, and my wife would get really, super pissed off. She could care less about my computer. ;)
Maybe I'd change my mind if I spent some time figuring out how to hook into the car's diagnostic(?) computer. Not sure how much good it'd do, though...
Where do you get the fuel cell mixture, or the fuel cells themselves? And fuel cells of batteries, they're still heavey as heck. Still, good luck - I'd really like to see this hack. What motor are you using?
I'm the stranger...posting to
Yes - hardware - that's where its at!
/. - but I chose to participate in a minor adventure, instead...
Yesterday evening, I spent about 7 hours, from 6pm to 1am, "helping" my brother-in-law fix his dump truck! Whoo boy!
So there we are, driving about 50 miles from where we live (in far-north Phoenix) to where the dump truck is at his job site (in Buckeye - otherwise known as BFE, AZ) - hauling his oxy-acetylene kit in the back of a beat up Ford Ranger, along with a new pneumatic ram...
We get to the site, he lifts the dump bed up, and notices a crack on the frame piece that hold up the bed (please not - this crack was completely through a half-inch thick "C" beam!). He first wants to replace a pneumatic ram that locks the dump gate in place when it is close - his old one leaked air like a sieve, and he couldn't keep it locked. He got that replaced, and he meant to use the OA cutting torch to "blow" a hole through an area where the lift ram goes that was bent, with the intent of installing a bolt to "bend" things back in place until he can get it fixed proper this weekend. Anyhow...
So, he is installing this ram, and I walk around to the side of the truck, and for some reason I look at the hinge pin, the thing the bed rotates on when it lifts - and to me, it doesn't seem right - it seems "crushed". I tell my brother-in-law about it, he tells me it is wore out, no big deal. He has the pneumatic cylinder in place, trys it out - works good. So, he lets the bed back down, engages the ram to lock the gate, then comes out to check that it is fully locked. I look at the pin again, and it seems more round this time - like pressure is off of the pin, but I can see cracks in the steel. I point it out to my brother-in-law - and this time, he sees what I am seeing: crap!
You see, if that pin had sheared off (which it was close to doing) - the bed would have come right off the truck - possibly tipping the truck over on its side at best - possibly killing someone at worst. It needed changing - and now (he had to work in the morning at 5am). So, he lifts the bed back up, and sees that yeah, it is really bad - can't wait kinda thing - then wonders if the crack in the frame (that needed welding) can be pounded straight (it had not only cracked, but the pieces had separated a little). He breaks out this large sledge hammer, beats on the metal a bit - it doesn't budge. He needs to get it straightened - but he doesn't have anything at his shop at home to do it. So, we decide to grab the nearest thing to try it with.
Now, my brother-in-law, at this site, is hauling mud - thick, gooey stuff, and he has a lot of it caked in the bed of the truck. He wants to clean it out, so he raises the bed again, and grabs the only tool that can scrape it out:
A backhoe - with a lovely extension boom!
This damn thing can reach out a good 30 feet - he is there, banging on the bed with the boom, knocking mud out. All the mud gets knocked out, so then he needs to get that crack straightened - have you guessed what our "tool-of-choice" is?
If you guessed "backhoe" - give yourself 100 points!
So, we take it around to the side of the truck, and he extends the boom, until it comes near the crack - he gets out, tells me what lever to shove, then looks to see what is where. He tells me to nudge it lightly, keep nudging... Talk about power! At one point, this machine was pushing so hard I shoved the truck (a 10 wheel dump truck - I don't know how many tons it weighs - probably about 15 or 20) SIDEWAYS. But, it got the job done - the thing was nice and straight...
We never did use the OA out at the site - so we loaded them from the Ranger to the dump truck, and drove the dump truck back to the house (another 50 miles and a hour drive).
We nearly got pulled over by a cop...
Once home, Danny welded on the crack (I would've gladly have tried, but time was of the essense here - we didn't have much, and he had to get the truck back out to the site and back, and get some sleep), then we focused on the pin. We ended up fabricating a new one using the OA torch and piece of steel - blew a hole in for a large cotter pin (actually, a bolt - which got welded in place). A few strategic hits with a sledge, a couple burns from hot steel, and it was in place - good as new. We stopped to eat (a whole load of KFC - yum!).
Came back out, finished up the crack, then blew the hole for the bending of the front brace (what started this whole adventure) - installed the bolt, put everything away, then we rolled the truck back to the site, in plenty of time.
We got back home in the Ranger at about 1am this morning. I took a shower and went to bed.
I have to say - that is the kind of adventure you can have when working with hardware. It was gritty. It was dirty. It was possible to get hurt - possibly even killed (believe me - if you are working anywhere around a lifted dump bed, and it comes down unexpectedly - say a broken hydraulic line or something - you can be CRUSHED). Hot steel, molten steel - blobs dripping, hitting the ground and exploding in gobs of sparks - raw, hot beauty (one of the reasons I like to work with steel).
Just thought I would share the but of fun I had last night - I could've been reading
-- cr0sh (posting anon because this is _very_ OT)
That should be "the bit of fun" in that last line...
It's one of those things that's simple in concept, but is full of fiddly little details. But here's hoping you do get /.ed - although considering the number of dupelicate posts lately, multiple /.ings are more likely :-)
I'm the stranger...posting to
I am currently a service manager in a Ford Dealership I have worked in the automotive repair field for 20 some odd years (Ford, GM, Mazda, Volvo, Toyota, Mitz). I can tell you that in order to run an automotive repair shop these days you have to be a techie a wrench head and a business administrator normally all at the same time. While working on the Dealerships Pc systems I might be helping a tech to diag a Check engine light while waiting for a call from a fleet administrator down the road on how I might be able to help them reduce the cost of servicing their vehicles by offering a better deal. I have seen quite a lot of negetive offering from indivduals on slashdot about dealerships and they way they perform their business....heres an offer to those with questions about how a dealership charges ect. Ask and I will respond with a strait answer. :)
It's just that the car people call it tuning instead of hacking. In my case the point is the same as with computers: to wring the maximum performance out of a particular package.
Ecks:
Who just finished putting his summer car on dollies and changed his wife's car over to snow tires.
From about 17 I could strip an engine completely (5 cylinder Audi 2 litre job:) and would love to still do the maintenance myself, but it just is not cost effective. I can pay someone £100 quid to replace all my spark plugs, distributer, oil etc in an hour, but it would cost me maybe 3 times that in time wasted if I did it. So I don't bother
When I was in my early 20's I had a motorcycle.. 1980 Yamaha 850 Special.. it barely ran when I bought it (the brakes seized riding it home), but I fixed every damn problem (with some wrench-head friends who got me into bikes to begin with)
Shaft, head, brakes, forks, pipes, and electrical all needed work.. I loved every minute of it..
But I'd never touch a car.. (besides basic stuff, like fluid changes) every car I've had has gone to a mechanic when something went wrong.. (I have a nice new one now - so if something does go wrong, it's covered under warranty..)
Motorcycles are beautiful, elegant machines.. cars are ugly - which is why they cover everything (motorcycles don't need a hood!)
Sure I did both. Then I started to make more than my mechanic. Now I can get my car fixed and stay clean & warm while playing UT. You ever have a transmission line break when it was not wet/freezing/dark?
make Linux, not Microsoft. sin(beast) = -0.809016994374947424102293417182819
On the other hand, you rarely have to upgrade the trusty 1/2 inch socket driver, so once you have collected most of the tools, things get cheaper as time goes along and you begin to be able to solve problems under the hood with only the tools you have.
Personally, I think it's a completely reasonable thing for a geek to do his own auto repair. In my case, it was darned near required-- I hate black magic. I refused to believe that I could not figure out what was going wrong with my truck.
I learned a few things along the way:
I might need to take my car in to have it fixed occasionally, but I have yet to call an electrician or plumber. My parents called a plumber only once, because it was a nigh impossible job in DIY mode.
~~~LXT~~~
Life is like a computer program: anything that can't happen, will.