Business Software Alliance "Grace Period"

The BSA is running (until January 31) a "Grace Period" for "voluntary compliance" in the cities of San Francisco/Oakland/San Jose, Houston,Norfolk/Richmond, Nashville, Indianapolis, Bozeman, and Orlando. Small businesses recieve a card in the mail, having been assigned a tracking number, so you know you're in their files. In previous press releases they state that they send out up to 700,000 of these cards simultaneously. Scanning their reported settlement victories, they then seem to pick 2-4 business to destroy. If the businesses don't go along, the BSA hires the Federal Marshals as mercenaries to help ensure compliance with their extortion. Microsoft, unsurprisngly, is a big supporter of this and pushes it to vendors as a chance to strengthen customer relations. (this is a powerpoint document, but thankfully you can also have it: translated via google). CD: Here is a link to the press release on this matter.

Comments

BSA

[nurightshu]

Am I the only sleep-deprived person who read the front page blurb thinking that the Boy Scouts of America would be sending storm troopers into the homes of 700,000 random citizens?

Guten Morgen! Ve are from ze Boy Scouts, und ve must this home search! After we have zis done, ve vill force you...to tie knots!

Re:BSA

[LilDebbie]

Yes, yes you were.

Re:BSA

[krmt]

Perhaps this is their Eagle Scout project?

Re:BSA

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh - simply hilarious!

Re:BSA

[Allnighterking]

Sieg Hiel ...... Seig Hiel ...... Sieg Hiel.....

Couple of notes. According to the Federal Marshals office. They aren't going to coperate unless proper court orders are issued. According to my local police department... call us and we'll boot there Nazi asses outa town. (can't say what dept it is since it's an off the record quote.) Oh and by the way BSA is a trademark of the Boy Scouts of America.... seems that they are violating Trademark and Copyright laws themselves.

Re:BSA

[nathanm]

Oh and by the way BSA is a trademark of the Boy Scouts of America.... seems that they are violating Trademark and Copyright laws themselves.

Trademarks can be the same if they're in different kinds of business. That's why there could be both Apple Records & Apple Computer.

Doing a search for BSA at the US Patent & Trademark Office yielded 64 trademarks with BSA in it, including this BSA, the Boy Scouts, & others.

Copyrights only protect a specific document. So if you write an article about the BSA (acknowledging their trademark of course) the article's copyright belongs to you. Just look at the bottom of each page on /. where it says "comments are owned by the Poster." So this comment is © Copyright 2002, me.

Re:BSA

[graxrmelg]

So if you write an article about the BSA (acknowledging their trademark of course) ...

Unless you get a thrill out of being a lackey of trademark lawyers, you have no obligation to acknowledge their trademark in any way when you're simply writing an article about them. Have you ever seen a trademark indicated in a newspaper article?

Re:BSA

[Duke]

"Oh and by the way BSA is a trademark of the Boy Scouts of America..."

That is why, to avoid confusion, I always refer to them as the BS Alliance.

Re:BSA

[innocent_white_lamb]

That's why there could be both Apple Records & Apple Computer

Interesting example that you chose there.

It happens that Apple Records went after Apple Computer way back when over their name. Apple Computer ultimately agreed that they would not make music machines and stay out of the music business to avoid trademark confusion.

Of course after that the Mac gained sound capability. That's why one of the "stock" Macintosh sounds is called SOSUME.

Re:BSA

[Anonymous Coward]

Hiel

Heil

Marshals

Marshal's

coperate

cooperate

there

their

Ignorant American!

I'll let Grammar Nazi correct your awful grammar and punctuation.

Re:BSA

[nathanm]

Interesting example that you chose there.

I chose it because it's one of the most well known lawsuits regarding trademark disputes using the same name. In my search when I made the original post, the Apple Records trademark is listed as dead & abandoned.

Re:BSA

[ion]

Bull Shit Allience ??

How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, let's say you steal $50,000 from the bank, and the police come to your house and say "Give us the $50,000 or we'll throw you in jail." Is that extortion? Hardly.

Why do people think that illegally copying software is a right? If you don't want to pay for software, use open-source software instead. Isn't that why we're all here -- to promote open source software solutions? Why are we hell bent on also trying to legitamize bootlegged software, when doing so does nothing but make "free software advocates" look like a bunch of freeloaders?

I wish people would understand that free software is exactly the opposite of freeloading -- it's giving your work away for the public good. Articles like this one put me in the same group of people that are on the side of the illegal theft of intellectual property that someone has chosen not to make public. It's someone else's right to ask me to pay for software, just as it's my right to give it away for free.

Go write free software. Go use free software. Go evangelize free software. But please, don't be so fucking petty as to complain about someone enforcing the fact that their software isn't free.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous DWord]

How about the fact that the BSA (I get the BS part, anyway) sends out these cards without discretion? OK, let's say you run Linux or BSD or whatever, and the police come to your house and say "Give us the $50,000 you owe us for software you're not even running." What about companies that legitimately purchase licenses for all their software? It ain't free to audit an organization with 20,000 users, no matter how much documentation you've saved. Who do you think foots the bill for that, even if they're compliant? It sure isn't the BSA, savior of the software industry.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Ironpoint]

>OK, let's say you steal $50,000 from the bank, and the police come to your house and say "Give us the $50,000 or we'll throw you in jail." Is that extortion? Hardly.

Yes that is a perfect example of extortion. Non-extortion would be to uphold the law which means an unconditional arrest.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[daemonc]

The difference is this:

Situation 1 - The police come to your house with a warrant, because you are a suspect in a crime, and they follow rules of search and seizure as mandated by the constitution.

Situation 2 - Someone from a non-profit organization that you've never heard of (which happens to be a front for a certain Software Company, which has been found in a court of law to illegally maintain its monopoly on the software industry) comes to your house and demands to see what you have installed on your computer.

The first situation is called "enforcing the law". I don't know what you would call the second situation, but under some circumstances it might be "extortion".

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

Please forgive my ignorance (I live in the UK and am not familiar with the roles of federal martials and the like), but how exactly do the BSA get onto your premises to look at your stuff in the first place.

Do they get a search warrant, or just rely on some hapless employee letting them in ? Where do these guys get their remit from?

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[mpe]

OK, let's say you steal $50,000 from the bank, and the police come to your house and say "Give us the $50,000 or we'll throw you in jail." Is that extortion? Hardly.

But going to every house and saying this, which is a far better analogy of what the BSA is doing, most certainly would be.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[JatTDB]

Speaking as a technology worker in one of the cities selected for this operation last June/July, this is 99% scare tactic, 1% actual enforcement. Just about every organization that my company provides IT services to received the infamous letter. At the same time, local TV and radio stations were running ads that were part of this campaign. As a result, every single one of our clients went through and audited all of their software licenses. Discrepancies that were found (not many) were resolved, and most organizations bought a few "extra" licenses, "just to be on the safe side". I have a feeling that my experiences are not unique, and that this operation's real purpose wass a quick cash infusion for the software companies involved.

Yeah, once in a while they do bother to actually bust a company (usually based on inside information from a disgruntled (ex-)employee), but that's not nearly as cost-effective for them. Much cheaper to send out a few form letters and buy a few radio/TV spots than to mount a real investigation, and the financial results are better.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Monte]

Why do people think that illegally copying software is a right?

Why do trolls (BSA included) assume we've been stealing software?

HTH. HAND.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[jaseuk]

The BSA exist in the UK.

I receive one of these cards, it was basically a questionaire asking questions about do you have a licensing policy, do you educate your users about software. What software licenses do you own. How many PCs/users at your location.

Filled it in and received a nice printed certificate saying that we:

unserstand the need to use licensed software and the importance of good software management.

The requirements of good software management include:

Being able to demonstrate to a Software Piracy Inspection & Aidotomg Team a license for each copy of the software programs on their system/network.

Understanding thei legal postigion regarding ther own and their staff's responsibility for the software installed on their company's computers.

Abiding by the license terms and conditions agreed to when installing their software.

--

They are supported/working for Macromedia, Microsoft, Adobe and a few others.

I guess we had the right amount of licenses for the number of users, thus avoiding a harrassing visit.

Jason

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[jaseuk]

I think a grace period was implied.. ie. they asked if we purchased any new licenses as a result of the mailing and what licenses we had purchased.

Jason

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[jejones]

Check out a recent thread on /. about a Borland EULA that includes a clause claiming the right to look at your stuff. How many people, I wonder, actually read EULAs?

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[LittleGuy]

More like:

"We think you have stolen merchandise in your home. We're going to search it, and if you don't have a receipt for everything here, we're going to assume it's stolen, so you'll have to pay for it again, plus pay penalties. And remember, the proof is on you."

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do trolls (BSA included) assume we've been stealing software?

Probably because most large companies probably do have some technically "illegal" software inside the company, purposely or not.

For instance, how many employees do you think might have unregistered copies of Winzip on their computers?

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[realdpk]

Good, but with one correction.

"We think you have stolen merchandise in your home. You're going to hire or pay people to generate a list of all of the items in your home, and if you don't have a receipt for everything here, we're going to assume it's stolen, so you'll have to pay for it again, plus pay penalties. We won't compensate you for the search."

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[sam@caveman.org]

i don't read EULAs because for the most part they are not enforceable, because as everyone knows, nobody reads EULAs.

-sam

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Jones E. Versichoran]

The problem with what you are saying is that the BSA is just an organization for the promotion of certain individuals interests - i.e. software manufacturers. They shouldn't be enforcing anything!

Imagine if I write a piece of software, release it under a proprietary license and then decide I can march into anyone's house to make sure they're only using as many licenses as they've bought? Imagine I did that to you... you'd probably sock me in the face, and if you didn't I'd honestly wonder why.

While I'm in total agreement with you - the answer to this kind of corporate thugism is to create alternatives vis-a-vis free software - I think this community is totally in the right for crying foul over what is essentially vigilante action by a software cartel. This should be police activity, acted upon only under warrant, and not organized by private citizens.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[ajknott]

That post deserves a (+1 recursive) mod! ;)

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

There may be something you can do to pre-empt microsoft's bullying, though it may only make you feel better for a while.

First, make sure you're in compliance with any licences, etc., then draw up (or have a lawyer do it) a legal-sounding document informing microsoft that it and its agents are to cease-and-desist from attempting to contact you or (if a business) your employees; that they must immediately and permanently remove from their records any and all information relating to you and your business, and never again keep or access records relating to you. Tell them they are not welcome on your property and that force will be used to remove them if they appear. Inform them that you do not intend to honor any future BSA licenses, and that if they agree to sell, give, or deliver software to you in the future, any accompanying licenses will be deemed null and void.

Some or none of the above may carry legal weight, but at least you won't have lain down at ms's feet.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

The extortion part is where the police come to your house and say "Ok, you have to PROVE to us that you DIDN'T steal $50K from a bank." and then you have to spend the next week proving it to them instead of earning a living.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Boomer2]

You should be doing audits anyway and booting people who install pirated or even unauthorized software.

Get your IS Dept off their butts and have them do their WHOLE job. If they can't, there are lots of out-of-work pros who would be happy to fill their spot.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Boomer2]

If it wasn't readily available to read (e.g. On the outside of the box or handed to you beforehand by the salesjerk) then it is usually not enforceable.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[coltrane99]

"complain about someone enforcing the fact that their software isn't free"

That's exactly what is distressing about this group, the fact that they are ENFORCING.

This 'BSA' group is acting as a private law enforcement agency. Private law enforcement agencies are a bad idea. It's that simple.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Amazing Quantum Man]

OK, let's say you steal $50,000 from the bank, and the police come to your house and say "Give us the $50,000 or we'll throw you in jail." Is that extortion? Hardly.

Except, it's the bank manager knocking on your door (with police officers behind him) saying, "I think you stole $50,000, prove you didn't, to my satisfaction, or pay me the $50,000 no questions asked, or these cops will throw you in jail".

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[goodEvans]

For instance, how many employees do you think might have unregistered copies of Winzip on their computers?

That's why I install PowerArchiver on everyone's computer as soon as it arrives...

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[dhogaza]

Since no one is claiming that copying licensed software is a right, you're raising a strawman.

That's not the issue. The issue is the non-trivial audit cost to licensees who are legally using the software, and the non-trivial audit costs plus penalties to those who may well have paid for a software license but may've lost the documentation.

And the audit provisions of the licenses are one-way, something ignored by organizations when they signed them.

By this I mean that the vendor has no obligation to record whether or not they've already been paid for a license. They can double-charge legal licensees who may've lost their documentation.

In many cases the customer may've assumed that the vendor keeps customer records, for instance. Given that Microsoft pays large-account sales people in part on a commission basis, we *know* they keep records at some levels. And these records are used, I'm sure, to generate revenue forecasts and to set sales goals.

But the customer being audited has no right to ask Microsoft to prove that they haven't paid, or that their license fees are out of line with the number of copies being used.

Nope. It's all one way, and this means organizations end up paying twice in some cases for software that's been legally licensed.

Now ... what the hell does any of the above have to do with your presumption that "people think that illegally copying software is a right", dipshit?

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[opkool]

Something similar happened to a Mandrake Linux Shop, when they recieved a threatening letter from BSA as posted on alt.os.linux.mandrake:

Check out the post started the thread .

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Gaijin42]

That works fine, assuming your company never needs tech support from microsoft, and never needs to buy any additional software from microsoft.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[slackbits]

OK, let's say you steal $50,000 from the bank, and the police come to your house and say "Give us the $50,000 or we'll throw you in jail." Is that extortion? Hardly.
Ok, lets say the police show up at your door with a warrent because they want to see if you have stolen any money. They have no proof of course, they just want to see.

Isn't that why we're all here -- to promote open source software solutions?
Well, Uh, no. I am here to check up on geek news that has been concentrated and umm... filtered (?) into 1 place. Open Source is nice, but that is not the point of this story.

See, the BSA decides they want to audit you because you might be stealing software. That is like the cops doing an audit on a normal person. I can see it now.
"Mr. Smith, we are here to do an audit of the premisis."
"What are you looking for?"
"Um anything illigal, stolen items, drugs, you name it, were looking for it."
"Uh, don't you need a warrent?"
"Well, no, this is just an audit, we are trying to help YOU comply with the law."

Seems pretty sketchy to me. I do not like the idea at all, and government officials should not be the enforcers of contract law. Remember it is not copyright law until there is enough proof to get a warrent to search the premisis.

Anyway, the whole thing sucks. Futhermore, it does not matter you use Open Source or not. What is to stop the thugs from coming into your shop and making sure you are compliant? It is still a big hassle.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[d.valued]

Umm.. no.

If you have a sufficiently large or sufficiently smart company, they WILL read the license agreement, be it a EULA or a Site LA.

These are CONTRACTS. They offer it, and by using the software, you agree to it. They offer a way out for compensation.

Legalia isn't something you just 'pray it goes OK'. You have to read and scrutinize anything that's got the smell of the law dialect.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah, and we'll bring some federal firepower with us too.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[tftp]

I think you stole $50,000, prove you didn't

The burden of proof is on him, not on you. Otherwise if you are not guilty you would either have to prove that you didn't do something, or to pay $$$, or to get jailed - hardly a fair choice.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was the original poster, let me defend my language:

Copying software isn't a right, but it's a fact of life. It is nearly impossible to be in compliance with the terms of most software lisences. How many total copies are you allowed to be in posession of? Backups? Rotating backups? Did you expunge it from your old system completely when you got the new one? BSA is not forgiving of these "mistakes" (see the poster who's company got nailed for a missed copy of wordperfect 5.1). When a person (BSA is not "the law") uses threats (of protracted legal action against a well funded entity) to get cash ("settlements" of $100k-$500k from SMALL businesses) it is extortion; just as it is when a cop allows you to "pay your speeding ticket on the spot" rather than go to court.

The use of the Federal Marshals to enforce this is not precisely mercenary in that the Federal Marshals are not being paid by BSA, that was a bit hyperbolic. But they are enforcing the will of a private concern against people who occasionally don't even break the law. This is presumption of guilt policing, and it has dramatic costs. Consider Snap-on Tools (about half way down).

In the end I do agree with some of the posters that suggest that this is a good thing for open source. It does dramatically increase the costs associated with commercial software, but I wouldn't wish an audit on even an enemy, not even to promote open source.

When they can send the marshals through your front door, shut you down for 6 days or more, confiscate your equipment on the word of an anonymous snitch, it's pretty much the definition of a police state. Yeah, you can fight back through the usual channels but only at huge cost. (And I'd be astounded if every piece of software in even the BSA offices was being used to the letter of it's EULA). For example, I posted anonymously because I fear retribution, even though my servers are straight BSD.

This isn't fair, it isn't right, and it's the wrong way to go about the problem. Poetic Justice would be served if enough people switched completely to free software and put their supporters out of business. Or maybe to convince SPA and BSA to audit each other...

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do people think that illegally copying software is a right?

Because the government failed in its responsibility to protect the citizens from the corporation, so now they are out of the loop. The law doesn't enter into the question anymore. This is war.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have been at a company at the receiving end of this. The action is initiated by lawyers who are not really concerned about whether you have proper licenses or not, but as to how much money they can get out of you.

You will say that you have nothing to worry about if you bought the software. We actually kept good records and EULAS. Our copies of Windows came with the computers we were running, but for some reason, we could not find 12 licenses out of the total 850 software licenses we held. It cost our company $13,000 for software we already owned but could not prove to the lawyer's satisfaction.

It is EXTORTION. And yes, Microsoft was the driving force behind this. You aren't going to fight this in court because it will cost more. Also, the company was turned in by a laid off employee. They called the BSA, Microsoft, Symantec and several other companies. We were able to prove ownership with all the companies, except for the 12 Microsoft licenses.

BTW, I had eliminated the NT file servers by running SAMBA on FreeBSD . I can't tell you how satisfying it was to spend the 30 minutes explaining to the lawyer's minion how I didn't need Microsoft servers in our organization. She felt that we were very deficient in client licenses.... (heh)

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

> OK, let's say you steal $50,000 from the bank,
> and the police come to your house and say
> "Give us the $50,000 or we'll throw you in
> jail." Is that extortion? Hardly.

Let's say that _somebody_ has been stealing from the bank and the police come to your house and say ... Then finding $1,000 they take it away because you can't prove that you didn't steal it from a bank somewhere.

The issue _isn't_ whether the software is pirated or not, the issue is whether you can find the licences, registration, and receipts for the software so that _you_ can prove that you bought it _and_ that the person you bought it from is legitimate.

I can imagine situations where someone buys a home PC in a retail store and the documentation is 'lost'. The BSA would then demand that they repurchase all products originally bundled with the computer at full retail price just so they can have the correct documentation.

As far as I can tell, the BSA have to have a reason to think that the property has computers. They would use registrations as the source of the names and addresses.

DO NOT REGISTER ANY SOFTWARE - NEVER RETURN A CARD, USE A HOTMAIL EMAIL AND LIE ABOUT YOUR ADDRESS.

(Note this may mean never using XP).

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[GlassUser]

Right to bear arms, baby, right to bear arms. I love living in Texas, too. Someone busts in my house (which conveniently completely surrounds my home office), *bang* they're dead. Now, of course I'm going to extend a courtesy to law officials, at least give them a chance to tell me they don't have a warrant before perforation ensues.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Amazing Quantum Man]

Oh, I agree. I was just converting the OP's argument to what the BSA *ACTUALLY* does.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[cpscgeek]

And how about the commercials the BSA runs on the radio? If you haven't heard them, it targets disgruntled former employees to "get back at their former employers." The commericals then go on to tell the penalties that their former employees will be held to. I don't know about you, but this just sounds like a plan for extortion to me. I can picture someone holding this over their former employer's head saying "I know you fired me, but I can hurt you with this unless you give me what I want."

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you *need* either of those things, you shouldn't be relying on microsoft for anything at all.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[hawk]

>OK, let's say you steal $50,000 from the bank,
>and the police come to your house and
>say "Give us the $50,000 or we'll throw you in
>jail." Is that extortion? Hardly.

Correct. But "prove to us that every single dollar in your house came from a legitimate source or give it to us for having come from the bank robbery, or we will inflict tens of thousands of dollars in legal expenses while attempting to collect hundreds of thousandsof dollars from you" is another matter entirely, and far closer to this mass-mailing.

I don't use pirated software, but tracing through years of file cabinets to prove that I purchased everything that I paid for would be intrusive and take many hours.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure that I can even boot *any* of the computers that have any commercial software installed on them. The old macportable needs the power socket soldered on again, and I have no idea where to get the connector for my thinkpad 486 powersupply(a silly d-shape with four conductors). These will yield tetris, word 5.1, excel 4, supercard, pre-fee hypercard, and a few miscellaneous utilities I purchased, while the thinkpad will yield drdos, master of orion,and, uhh, that's all that's on the dos partition. Did I pay for these? yes. Could I find every scrap of documentation in any reasonable amount o time? [*insert maniacal laughter here*]

hawk, who would have *loved* to receive one of these while still practicing law full time

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[fedos]

they asked if we purchased any new licenses as a result of the mailing and what licenses we had purchased.

To which you answered: we haven't bought any new licenses yet, we can't seem to agree on which distro of Linux to get.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[cduffy]

CONTRACTS, as you put it, require CONSIDERATION -- that is, there must be something in it for both parties. When you purchase a piece of software from a third party, you automatically have the right to do whatever you want with it, excluding violating copyright. Think of it this way: When you buy a board from a lumber company, you don't need a contract with them to be able to build a house with it, do you?

Since a EULA gives you nothing you didn't have when you bought the software it fails to meet the basic requirements for a contract and can be safely disregarded (presuming you have a halfway-competant lawyer).

Oh -- but IANAL, and this is not legal advice. Talk to your own (real) lawyer before actually doing as I just advised.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, PowerArchiver has changed from freeware to 30-day trial nagware, just like winzip... :(

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

>> OK, let's say you steal $50,000 from the bank, and the police come to your house and say "Give us the $50,000 or we'll throw you in jail." Is that extortion? Hardly.

Your analogy is flawed. It's more like saying; "Someone in this city stole $50,000 from us. Unless everyone living here spends $100 proving they didn't, we're going to assume you all did and demand repayment in full from each of you. Oh, and if you don't pick one of the choices we've given you, it's going to cost you more than $50,000 by the time our lawyers get done with you."

Now that's extortion.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[crucini]

hawk, who would have *loved* to receive one of these while still practicing law full time

Do you know something we don't? Because it looks like almost nobody can stand up to these people. Snap-On appears to be the only victim to be publicly exonerated, and they chose not to countersue. Do you feel that there is room for a savvy lawyer to hit back? Only if the client is 100% clean, or assuming a normal amount of violations?

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[lamont116]

CONTRACTS, as you put it, require CONSIDERATION -- that is, there must be something in it for both parties. When you purchase a piece of software from a third party, you automatically have the right to do whatever you want with it, excluding violating copyright.

Consideration isn't what you receive, it's what you give up. A software company has the legal right to prevent you from copying its software (copyright). You have some money. You give up some money, and the company gives up its right to prevent you from copying the software, to a limited extent. It certainly can place conditions on that.

(IAAL, but this should not be construed as legal advice).

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[dattaway]

And that's not all! The IRS would love to see a piece of the pie also. Uh oh, no tax receipts? Don't forget, the IRS will be armed too!

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a couple things that are disturbing. Probable cause and due process.

In the USA, there is assumed to be a presumption of innocence. The BSA should be required to provide reasonable proof of guilt, and no anonymous "tips" are not proof.

Since these are civil actions, the standards for bringing someone to trial are much lower. A criminal case requires a "viable" prosecution.

The BSA is bad news. It infringes on the civil rights of the citizens o the USA.

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[hawk]

No, it's that given the circumstances, along with the fact that my machines & software were 100% legal, I could have safely handled the matter myself.

I had enough free time that fighting back against a heavy-handed and abusiive action would have become a hobby--and, ultimately, a profitable one.

I'd be looking for damages in the event of machine confiscation, and on top of that, lining up lawyers to separately represent every single client who had confidential information on the machine. Given the nature of my malpractice carrier (pay real claims quickly, but fight frivolous ones to the end with no settlement offer),I might have been able to get help from them, as well.

There were too many times I had toback down because my client couldn't afford the fight--including someone I had to plead guilty to a sex crime that I'm reasonably confidant that, not only did he not commit it, but that I could show who had manipulated the child.

This would have been payback time for all of those, and I would have loved every second.

hawk

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[cduffy]

Granted, my definition was faulty. Now that I think about it, it fails the canonical counterexample (that I recall) of an uncle who wrote a contract with his nephew offering a sum of money if said nephew didn't smoke, drink, &c until 21; When said uncle attempted to renounce the contract on basis of lack of consideration, the court found (as you said) that giving something up was sufficient.

However, here's the thing: Right now, when you purchase a piece of software, you already (in the US) have the right to copy it into memory or make a backup for your own use; both of those rights are explicitly granted (the former by the DMCA, IIRC). So... what extra usage above those rights does the license permit you? Generally, none.

And as much as the vendor may claim that their software is licensed rather than sold, if you purchased it from a third-party vendor, you still (via first-sale doctrine) bought that software.

So... where's the consideration?

(As before, IANAL)

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[lamont116]

However, here's the thing: Right now, when you purchase a piece of software, you already (in the US) have the right to copy it into memory or make a backup for your own use; both of those rights are explicitly granted (the former by the DMCA, IIRC). So... what extra usage above those rights does the license permit you? Generally, none.

And as much as the vendor may claim that their software is licensed rather than sold, if you purchased it from a third-party vendor, you still (via first-sale doctrine) bought that software.

So... where's the consideration?

Exactly what you just said. The right to copy it into memory, etc. is the consideration. Just because the statute sets a minimum for the rights that the company gives up doesn't make it "not consideration." (I.e., the statute doesn't provide everyone with those rights, just those who contract with the company to (for lack of a better word) obtain the use of the software).

Re:How is it "extortion" to enforce the law?

[cduffy]

If I were licensing the software, this would be true and entirely reasonable. However, when I go over to CompUSA, pick up a box with a CD in it, and take it to the counter, there is no indication given to me or any reasonable person that what is taking place is a licensing transaction rather than a purchase outright. I'm not provided with a license to sign, or any outright notice at all; indeed, the vendor may well write up a bill of sale before taking my money and providing me with the piece of software.

Does this smell like a licensing agreement to you? To me, it smells like a sale. A publishing company can't put a license inside the cover of a book and claim that their books are licensed not sold (and thus that resale is banned), and there's case law to back this up (though I don't care to look it up unless you call me on it). Why is it any different with software?

If that transaction is a purchase, then by the time I review the EULA it's too late -- I already have the rights to make the copy in memory, the personal-use backup, etc., having purchased them when I paid the vendor. When I agree to the EULA, then, the vendor gives up nothing more than they already did when they sold the software to the middleman (there's that "sold" word again!); hence, no consideration.

If the vendor did not sell the software to the middleman, but rather made the middleman a go-between in a licensing deal, but the middleman sells the software to me rather than explicitly selling me a license, I'd expect that it'd be this middleman who'd be liable for selling what he didn't own -- but anyhow, I've never heard of a reseller taking delivery of software under such terms.

Where are they getting tips from

[Lokni]

I run a one person operation out of my house and I got one of these letters. What do they do, go down the list of businesses in an area and figure EVERYBODY is pirating their software? I am ingnoring everything they send me. If they want to send a federal marshall to my house, I will see their ass in court. I haven't run windows for about 2 years now, and have never had any employees to rat on me for using "illegal software." Pirate my ass. More than anything this makes me want to start doing file sharing on every piece of software I own.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Barbarian]

uh oh, they're coming for you now--posting on /. taunting them is probably the easiest way to get hassled. ;)

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Anonymous DWord]

You should provide them with an "anonymous" tip about all the software you're "stealing." Have you ever seen the online form they have for reporting piracy? There's a little section on it that you can check- "I believe that this company would attempt to eliminate the pirated software if they were informed beforehand," or something like that. Check that off, and then sue them when they bust in and steal all your Linux boxen, depriving you of work.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Alsee]

I run a one person operation out of my house and I got one of these letters.

Similar story here. We got one of their letters a year or so ago. Small family business, non-existant for the last few years. I can't imagine what obsolete list they were using.

Well, at least it was good for a chuckle before permanent storage in the circular file for future reference.

-

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[erlenic]

I heard a radio ad here in St. Louis yesterday soliciting tips from disgruntled employees. It had the tone of "If you want to get back at your boss, report him for piracy!" I really hate radio to begin with, but that was the first time something I heard on it actually made me sick to my stomach.

My dad's company was targeted by this about a year ago. They think it was an employee that left a little before that, but I wonder about that now, because the guy they suspect was always trying to bring pirated and "student" versions of software to work, and the company kept trying to stop him. Their lawyer finally sent the BSA a letter demanding certain things, proof of pirating being the key thing, and they still haven't heard back from them in 9 months. It seems they shut the hell up if you try to stand up to them.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[biglig2]

IYes, that is exactly how they work.

You do need to be careful with your strategy, though. I don't know what the exact position is in the US, but bear in mind that where they can, the BSA have whichever local law they bring in with them *confiscate* your computers as "evidence". How long it's going to take you to get them back I leave as an exercise to the reader. How long your business will stay afloat without your computers ditto.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Wendel T. Shaggy]

You are a registered business?

You don't have a registered WindowsXX (Office, etc.) license?

=> You are obviously a pirate!

The logic is quite simple. (and scary)

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Mignon]

Here's what you do:

1. Get an old POS computer and monitor.
2. Install Linux, including X.
3. On a buddy's Windows machine, make a bitmap of the whole screen, with several MS applications prominently featured.
4. On the POS Linux box, run X with no window manager and don't run any applications.
5. Set that bitmap as the background on your POS Linux box.

Let the marshals confiscate that box, while they pass by your own, super-leet computer that doesn't even look like a computer.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[billcopc]

Simple : Tell them you don't own a business, since you're at home. Then tell them to fsck off before you sue/shoot them. Or you could just go straight to shooting without warning (they are trespassing, after all).

The BSA is just an incompetent bunch of tie-wearing thugs. They handle M$ and others' dirty work every once in a while, just to scare the others.

They don't own any software, they don't have any licensing contracts with you, and they don't give you a plushie if you're compliant. Bottom line : they have no legal right to enter your premises, even less so to futz around on your PCs and collect data. Time to load that shotgun!

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Anonymous Coward]

They think it was an employee that left a little before that, but I wonder about that now, because the guy they suspect was always trying to bring pirated and "student" versions of software to work, and the company kept trying to stop him.

Standard alt.revenge operating practice. It's far easyer to rat about the pir8 software that you brought to work yourself back when you still worked there, rather than about stuff you suspect some coworkers did. Also be careful where you keep your licenses. If they are not in a locked cabinet they might be gone together with the employee you just fired...

Hey, if you're cynical, better be cynical all the way!

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could just go straight to shooting without warning (they are trespassing, after all).

But what if you don't have a gun?

The BSA is just an incompetent bunch of tie-wearing thugs.

Ah, there's the solution! With a quick movement, just grab the narrow end and pull. Very considerate of the BSA to come with a builtin self-destruct mechanism!

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Nurlman]

Well, if you can afford a few months of fighting to get the computers back, you stand to make a great deal of profit by suing the police (or the Federal Marshals, or whoever did the confiscating), since an "anonymous tip" from a website is in no way sufficient to go get a warrant to seize property.

Think about it-- if it was, I could phone in an anonymous tip to the BSA that Microsoft was pirating my very first program, the one that prints "Hello World" over and over again, and that they'd be likely to delete it if the police came knocking. Bingo, the cops have a nice warehouse full of neato computers, and no more monopoly for a while.

A warrant can only issue if the police have "probable cause" to believe a violation is being committed. If cops go to a judge with a warrant application based on an anonymous tip, they have to have additional evidence to show why they believe this particular tipster is reliable. The "someone--we don't know who-- submitted a report on our website" argument isn't going to get them very far.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[dasunt]

Assume its easy to backup data to a secure online storage site (ftp, anyone?)

Assume that the cost of new computers and restoring the data is significantly less then the potential outcome of a lawsuite against the police and BSA. Also, consider the moral implications of what you are doing (which is basically teaching the BSA a lesson, in my book).

I say, you'd probably come out ahead. And there is tons of free publicity involved here too. :)

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you miss one thing. The federal courts are corrupt. Just how would the marshals get the warrant in the first place. The private businesses do not have a chance in such a "court".

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Fishstick]

Similar kind of scare tactic here in Chicago last summer.

The radio spot said something to the effect that the BSA gets most of its tips from former or current disgruntled employees. Then went on to add, If your company has no former or current disgruntled employees, you can disregard this announcement. Otherwise, contact blah blah blah during this grace period. The BSA *will* be returning to the Chicago area later this year to follow up on all anonymous tips it receives, and you can save yourself and your company big headaches by making sure you are in compliance *now*!

Man, that sounded really out of line. It is one thing to try to get companies to pay for all the software it uses, yet another to use tactics like these.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[wdhowellsr]

I got a card as well. I'm a contract web developer maintaining a major Telco's national software distribution intranet pages. I work at home and have a dozen computers setup in a lab running all sorts of software. I recently dropped $800+ on a MSDN Professional Subscription since the company is standardizing on MS servers, broswers, and applications. At one time or another I have just about every application the company uses installed for testing purposes. I'll be interested to see what the BSAs interpretation of my licensing is for that software.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Alan Cox]

If you got an letter that can in any way be held to be threatening, malicious or falsely alledging you can be prosecuted make sure the document isnt violating any laws.

In the UK our equivalent (FAST) are normally a little better behaved but when they stepped out of line people did go to the police and to advertising standards to complain about receiving threatening letters, false advertising and the like

Whats more is the advertising standards authority sided with the people against FAST, and if they do it again that way they'll get a nasty suprise.

You would think that the BSA would get further if it was the nice guy. Very few companies want to violate licenses, and most of those who pay licenses really dont like those who dont pay.

Mind you, if you bought a copy of Kylix or installed some versions of MS media player, you've already given the license holder in the USA at least the right to enter your home and check you for compliance, mp3 files and whatever they like.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[bjtuna]

You should provide them with an "anonymous" tip about all the software you're "stealing." Have you ever seen the online
form they have for reporting piracy? There's a little section on it that you can check- "I believe that this company would
attempt to eliminate the pirated software if they were informed beforehand," or something like that. Check that off, and then sue
them when they bust in and steal all your Linux boxen, depriving you of work.

I am not a lawyer, but that sounds a little like entrapment.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[linzeal]

Can we setup a GPL enforcement agency that can call in the National Guard? I'm certain many anonymous tips would come in about microsoft violating the GPL and we could have RMS leading a storm into the microsoft campus with guns blazing to make posters of.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[unDees]

Let the marshals confiscate that box, while they pass by your own, super-leet computer that doesn't even look like a computer.

No, officer, that's not a computer, that's, er, a table lamp.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not a lawyer, but that sounds a little like entrapment.

No, you certaily are not a lawyer.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Reziac]

IANAL either, but to my understanding of the law, "entrapment" only applies to what law enforcement agencies and personnel can do. Private individuals (including corporations) are not so constrained in their efforts to assemble "evidence".

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[cduffy]

No, it's not entrapment, but a judge would probably throw the case out anyhow if it came out in court, and they could potentially have reason to countersue (example: if you gave them reason to engage in the behaviour they did, your lawsuit could possibly be considered frivolous).

(IANAL either -- but I enjoy civil law; the UCITA is my bed-time reading).

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Happy go Lucky]

IANAL either, but to my understanding of the law, "entrapment" only applies to what law enforcement agencies and personnel can do. Private individuals (including corporations) are not so constrained in their efforts to assemble "evidence".

Not quite true.

A private individual can also engage in entrapment. Earth First and other terrorist groups have had a joke for a long time: "You can recognize the FBI informant, because he's the one who wants to blow things up." Informants are not actually cops. Some of them want to pretend to be, but they're not. They're just people who know things and talk to cops about what they know.

And "entrapment" has a specific meaning. It basically requires that the cop actually plant an idea in someone's head that they didn't have before. That's why vice cops have to let the lady-of-the-evening make the offer of sex for money. That's why drug agents' reverse stings (cops pretend to SELL the drugs) often can get tossed. That's why FBI agents in militias and environmental groups aren't so hot to blow things up anymore.

And the BSA's web complaint form doesn't count. If they weren't already interested in doing raids of questionable legality, then they wouldn't have that form up.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Happy go Lucky]

Simple : Tell them you don't own a business, since you're at home. Then tell them to fsck off before you sue/shoot them. Or you could just go straight to shooting without warning (they are trespassing, after all).

Incredibly bad idea.

That's how YOU go to jail for attempted murder. That's also how you become civilly liable to them to a degree that will make a couple of software licenses look like half a can of Coke.

Don't get me wrong: If you want to spend ten years in prison because you needed to wave your dick at some BSA assholes, feel free. But that's what'll happen (even in Texas.)

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Reziac]

I *think* you're agreeing with me. Basically I said that private parties CAN use entrapment (BSA tactics would qualify). AFAIK only law enforcement agencies and personnel are prohibited from entrapment.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Cruciform]

Heheh, cute. And I know it's intended to be humourous so my serious follow-up is just commentary, not cluelessness :)

Should anyone actually try to lure the BSA into conflict, be aware that when they show up with the Marshalls, if you have a home business they may even take stereo equipment, music cds, books, even your prized X-men collection. This has been standard fare for any person I knew who got the visit (BSA or SPA). And in some cases, it took 2 years to get the stuff back.

And check those EULAs! If you have an app on both your desktop and laptop machines, and didn't want to buy two copies of the software you may actually be in the clear. Some license agreements actually allow for laptop installations. So if they try to bust you on that, make sure you've got a copy of the EULA handy.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[cduffy]

You can shoot people for tresspassing... in Texas.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Happy go Lucky]

I *think* you're agreeing with me. Basically I said that private parties CAN use entrapment (BSA tactics would qualify). AFAIK only law enforcement agencies and personnel are prohibited from entrapment.

Not quite. In a criminal case, it doesn't matter who's doing the entrapment. If there's entrapment, then the case is going to get tossed even if it's a private person doing it.

If it's civil, then I don't know. However, I'm going to guess that entrapment is also a defense to civil claims, and that it doesn't matter whether its a cop or a donut salesman who does it.

I'm not sure which BSA tactics count as "entrapment." Unless they planted it in your head to install an illicit copy of Windows ME, and you wouldn't have done so otherwise, then I doubt that the "e" word applies to their behavior.

But you should REALLY REALLY look in your state's laws about this. What I've been saying is true in Colorado, which only leaves 49 states where it could be wrong. Look in the criminal code, in the sections dealing with "affirmative defenses," and you should find your state's rules governing entrapment.

Also try a community college bookstore-specifically, a college with a criminal justice program. They should have the statute books available.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Happy go Lucky]

Now that we're going pretty far offtopic...

You can shoot people for tresspassing... in Texas.

Oh, yeah? Well, I say that Section 9.32 of the Texas criminal code (dealing with the use of deadly force) does not allow for the use of deadly force to repel trespassing. And Section 9.42 (Use of Deadly Force in Defense of Property) has two problems: It does not allow trespassing as sufficient cause, and it'll get tossed on Constitutional grounds as being inconsistent with _Tennessee v. Garner_ (which specifies that the use of force is a "seizure" under the Fourth Amendment and as such must be reasonable under the circumstances.)

Yes, I looked at Section 9.41, and it allows force. NOT deadly force. There's a very, very big distinction between the two. A gun is ALWAYS deadly force in the US, including Texas.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[pickanothername]

In Texas (if I remember correctly), in order to deal deadly force to an intruder, he must be either armed, his activities actively leading you to believe that he intends to remove your safety or property by force. So, unless that Liscence Searching Dictator (LSD) comes through your window at 2AM, or is wielding a gun, you can't shoot him. It is, however, legal in Texas to protect yourself and/or your property with deadly force, if needed.

Just remember, no shooting that LSD during daylight hours.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[cduffy]

Interesting -- I've heard the legal-to-shoot-tresspassers thing from two Texas residents (one former and one current), but looking for a definitive (ie. legal) source on the subject, I'm unable to find one. I'll ask one of my ex-Texan friends for more details...

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[Happy go Lucky]

Interesting -- I've heard the legal-to-shoot-tresspassers thing from two Texas residents (one former and one current), but looking for a definitive (ie. legal) source on the subject, I'm unable to find one. I'll ask one of my ex-Texan friends for more details...

I got it from http://www.law.cornell.edu, which has a link to the Texas state statutes maintained by the state government.

That's a good reference. If this is a concern to you, an even better reference would be to read it and then consult a Texas attorney-he may know of case law that'll help you to understand what a judge and jury will actually do.

A good general rule is "Deadly force ONLY when you fear death or great bodily injury to yourself or another, and you have reason to believe that lesser force will not save you." Despite things like fleeing-felon rules, that's pretty much how we're approaching the subject in police academies now.

YADATROT: I'm just itching for some BSA inspector to show up at my home. "I'm a real cop. You're not. You can either leave this private property or you can turn around, put your hands behind your head, and lace your fingers."

Probably won't happen, but it's worth a giggle anyway.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[enol]

I live in the LA area, and the BSA was running tons of ads about their "grace" period (which was Nov.15 here I believe) on the radio stations. It sounded almost like a threat. I remember, one of the line was "we get most of our tips from former or current unhappy employees." ala your employees will snitch on you so you'd better make sure you paid up.
These people have problems. It almost feels like a gang of private goons hired by big businesses to screw people.

Re:Where are they getting tips from

[billcopc]

"Deadly force ONLY when you fear death or great bodily injury to yourself or another"

<joke> What if a BSA raid results in lots of extra licenses to buy within a ridiculously short timeframe, which will result in my inability to pay the protection racket to the local mob, who will subsequently dump me in the river ? </joke
The sad part is that a friend of mine was once stuck in a similar situation, of course he didn't kill anyone but he did have to get himself into alot of trouble and debt, in order to keep out of worse trouble and debt (and/or death). It's a crazy fucking world out there!

so what exactly is this?

[Barbarian]

So how exactly does this work? If you're a business in that area, do they send you a "card", and demand you reply with a statement saying that you're 100% compliant or they'll sue the pants off of you?

Re:so what exactly is this?

[JatTDB]

Actually, it's really more like if you're a business in that area, they send you a form letter, and hope you panic and buy a bunch of licenses to make sure your ass is covered, and they never do much of anything to anyone. At least, that's how it went down in Atlanta when they did this last summer...

Re:so what exactly is this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, I've recieved the BSA card. Im a college student with NO COMPANY. I am on a few mailing lists though. Fancy that they send me the card. Here is what to do. First call them up, and give them your tracking number. Then tell them they've sent this to you by mistake and to take you off the mailing list. Since what they are doing is solicitation, they MUST remove you from their list. The guy on the phone said to me "sure no problem, you might recieve one more letter as the database takes a few weeks to update" or something like that. Just call them and tell them to leave you alone, problem solved.

Protest Song

[alephnull42]

Break out the protest banners and start singing:

"Amaaaaaaziiiing Graaaaace!"

Tone excuses illegal copying

[Paul Johnson]

...mercenaries to help ensure compliance with their extortion...

Or in other words making people pay what they agreed to pay when they started using the software. Its not like they didn't have a choice.

Emotive words like "mercenaries" and "extortion" don't help, any more than words like "piracy" and "software theft".

Meantime this is an excellent time to stop preaching to the choir and start telling those businesses about open source software. Issue press releases. Get interviewed by radio and TV.

Paul.

Re:Tone excuses illegal copying

[Rinikusu]

What would be nice if someone in the Open Source community could get a list of all the businesses who received one of these "threats" and immediately mass-mail some Open Source propaganda/literature, whatever. What would be nicer is if someone could foot the bill to produce some nice GLOSSY BROCHURES written to entice the average business owner without sounding too much like an ass, and for someone to foot the bill to mail them all out.

What Linux needs is a marketing department. :)

Re:Tone excuses illegal copying

[robinjo]

I work for a company which has enough licenses for all software we're using. However, it'd be a nightmare to hunt down each and every of them in case of a BSA raid.

Many companies in our situation don't want to go through all that. They choose to pay more just to save effort.

Re:Tone excuses illegal copying

[Rentar]

So we should spam to prevent evil corporations from supressing other companies and to tell those other companies to use free software.

Now if we'd use some high-tech widget (which is subject to an copyright infringement suit and driven by the newest experimental Linux kernel) to mail them, we'd have the perfect slashdot-story

Re:Tone excuses illegal copying

[Rinikusu]

nonono.. Not SPAM.. mail *mailing*, as in USPS. Make it legit. :)

Re:Tone excuses illegal copying

[delysid-x]

Just because junk mail is on paper doesn't make it not spam

Re:Tone excuses illegal copying

[pthisis]

Well, with paper junkmai the sender has to pay for it (rather than having it subsidized by the recipient). It keeps your postal rates low, and it encourages the sender to target the mailings to people who might be interested (e.g. open-source mailings to people having licensing trouble...) because they have to pay for every piece of mail sent.

Re:Tone excuses illegal copying

[Anonymous Coward]

Or in other words making people pay what they agreed to pay when they started using the software

By stop supporting older versions of their software, they are actually adding to the cost of people using their software. There is no expiry tag that says that in the year so and so, we will stop supporting this software. But having proprieties standards, they are not letting people know the real cost of using their software. They never put a tag that says that if a person use their software, that software will make it hard/impossible for the person to use other software or data exchanges or integration. These are real cost. Combining the two together the cost will be prohibitive. Either spends millions to change to a new platform or spends millions of dollars to upgrade to their latest software. I would not say that people pay what they agreed to.

As for the part that emotive words does not help, it does. Missiles and bombs does not help to keep down casuaties. But if a person attacks you with missiles and bombs, a whole lot of good to you if you are using logic and reasons. Emotives words are used to mislead. Emotives words are used to attack and defend. But sometimes it is between survival and extinction. This is not tic for tat. Rather this is about using the right way to defend. I am not defending the software pirates, rather I am arguing about being passive when other people are in an offensive position. In real life, people dun think that you are noble. People would think that you are not able to defend yourself and therefore lousy.

Anyway, think for those companies who are already trying hard enough to make a living at bad times like that and does not need another additional burden because some companies want to increase their obscene profit. If they have evidence that the companies are using unlicensed software, by all means go and raid those companies.

and last words for the day:

Piracy is theft, overpricing is daylight robbery

Re:Tone excuses illegal copying

[billcopc]

The point isn't about piracy.. it's about harassing the hell out of everyone without any legal backing. True, buying proper licenses is the "right way", and that's how it should be.

That doesn't mean these guys can just walk in and raid your office however they see fit. I don't let the cops in without a warrant, so I wouldn't let the BSA in without a cop AND a warrant. They have no reasonable proof that I _MAY_ be using unlicensed software, so in theory they _SHOULD_ have no way of getting a search warrant. Anonymous tips on their web site don't count as 'reasonable proof', because no one can be held accountable. What they are doing is cooperative fraud, teaming with the megawhores of software. If at least they stood up for the small guys (like all the cheap fucks who used cracks and keygens on my old doorgames), then maybe I could find some sympathy for their extortionary tactics, but they don't and I won't.

Re:Tone excuses illegal copying

[ichimunki]

Whatever. Have you actually gotten one of these BSA letters? The tone of the letters is very much the tone of someone doing extortion. In fact, they call it a "truce". I didn't know I was even at war! The BSA are hired soldiers (aka mercenaries) in this war. I got one of these letters and for the purposes of discussion I scanned it and posted it on my website. Just type 'microsoft' at the prompt. I agree if you want to use MS software (or anyone's proprietary software) you should pay the price they ask for it, but I hardly think given the threatening tone and guilty-until-proven-innocent methodology, that we users should have to watch the way we speak out in response.

Re:Tone excuses illegal copying

[Anonymous Coward]

I have thought of implementing an interface such as the one on your site but have always been concerned about the usability aspects and learning curve of such a paradigm. I did the "type microsoft at the prompt" thing and that worked just fine. Then I tried several standard Unix commands, DOS commands, and even standard element names such as "home, about, contact, articles" that can be found on most any website with absoulutely no luck whatsoever. Damn that is one stupid interface! While I am glad that I never attempted writing one I am glad that you did implement yours thus saving me the inevitable grief and frustration I surely would have encountered. Here is a hint:at the very least list the main areas of your site to help people get started. What a stupid idea...cool posting of the letter though ;-)

The radio ads are deceptive...

[Shenyang]

...I just heard one these ads on a local AM talk radio station. The announcer said "you only need one former or disgruntled employee to pick up the phone" and gave Jan. 31 as the date by which you should buy some software. Even after visiting the BSA web site, it is still unclear to me how one obtains this amnesty - surely just buying some software and saving the receipt isn't enough? (i.e., when the marshals storm your office, showing them a receipt from Fry's probably won't cut the mustard.)

Re:The radio ads are deceptive...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because you cant BUY anything.
You no longer OWN the damm thing.

If they just want money, then run a BUY or DIE advertisiment like
Are you using pirate software , or think you might..
We want you to buy
get your sorry ass down to .......
or we'll KILL you (sound of machine gun)
Forget ... excuses...
forget that and the kid
pack you wallet, bring the checkbook,
you have 2 hours.. (more gunshot noises)
we know where you live, what you do...
or we will hunt you down like the dog that you are. (sound of dog being kicked and yelping)

nothing like truth in advertising

Re:The radio ads are deceptive...

[ethereal]

Somehow I'm imagining a version of "The Running Man", where frightened IT managers must scurry around town buying licenses for their neglected department while avoiding BSA sharpshooters and merciless bounty hunters. If you manage to get all your machines licensed before they get you, you win the prize!

Re:The radio ads are deceptive...

[ThePilgrim]

And the prize is to be entered into next weeks show!

Re:The radio ads are deceptive...

[Anonymous Coward]

I would just cry if I heard an ad on the radio that went something like this:

"Worried about expensive software audits? Check out Free Software. Not only is it inexpensive, but we let you do whatever the hell you want to with it..."

Hrmm...

[ImaLamer]

See the last story.

If they can do this, shouldn't we ask that they be held liable for faulty products?

{I know that software isn't perfect, but they believe their data is worth that price... what do you get when they are responsible for losing yours?}

Re:Hrmm...

[ADRA]

Because the license only covers the one case, and not the other. If you want guarantees, only buy from people who can give it to you. See the Linux community guarantee an operating system that it produces with real money behind it.

Re:Hrmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? What does one have to do with the other? You licence your software based on certain terms (EULA, Site LA), surely the licenser can take action against you if they believe you are in breech of this licence. Now stop your whining and stop using Windows.

Re:Hrmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

bullshit. I BOUGHT my software in a store.
I didn't licence anything. I didn't agree to
any contract beyond "you give me these disks
and I'll give you this cash".

Re:Hrmm...

[ImaLamer]

See the Linux community guarantee an operating system that it produces with real money behind it.

The difference is two-fold. Many people are getting their linux for free. 'You get what you pay for' could apply, but you are getting more than that. RedHat doesn't raid your office when they think you are using two copies when you've bought one. When M$ does this, they imply that their data is worth something - but limited liability says yours isn't.

The problem is also that the community, mainly, doesn't profit from the work that is done. But they, and people who do profit, are ALWAYS working to make sure that your OS is secure and stable.

It's the fact that M$ doesn't make an effort that bothers me [and others]. Patches aren't released on a timely basis, they don't come out and say when something is 'broken', they aren't doing much to fix already shipped and broken products.

If they worked harder to secure their products, the question wouldn't be there. Because RedHat has errata updates, debian has 'apt-get upgrade' and similar systems are in place - your data is watched over a lot more than when you are using a Microsoft product.

They have MSNBC... why not tell customers to update there? Hell, even use the auto update features of XP to update systems... don't sit on the patch for weeks.

Guilty until proven innocent?

[4im]

Do these BSA guys realise what they are doing? Scaring off their customers? Being extremely arrogant and intrusive? What about that old adage of your customer being the king?

I guess _this_ is one of the best reasons for switching away from vendors that are members of the BSA: None of those license troubles with free software. None of those expensive audits to do (is that included in those MS TCO calculations?). None of those guilt assumptions. No insecurity.

Re:Guilty until proven innocent?

[Anonymous Coward]

If someone is pirating your software, they aren't really your customer now, are they.

Re:Guilty until proven innocent?

[BlueUnderwear]

If someone is pirating your software, they aren't really your customer now, are they.

Wrong. A company might well have 2137 legal copies of a software, plus 5 it has no license for (either intentionally or inadvertedly).

For the 2137 legal copies, it would be a customer.

For the 5 illegal ones, it would be a pirate.

So yes, somebody can be both your customer and a pirate.

Re:Guilty until proven innocent?

[sam@caveman.org]

scaring off their customers

where else are they going to get microsoft windows, which they have to have in order to work and play? it's called a monopoly, and this is called abuse of monopoly powers. if there was a real choice in operating systems, they would never, ever, ever do this, because everyone they pestered would switch to a different vendor.

this is why a vertical microsoft breakup was necessary, with competing 'microsoft windows' companies. as long as they were not allowed to form a defacto-monopoly again by joining these 'alliances', competition would naturally keep these nasty practices very, very far from your doors.

this is also why the RIAA and the MPAA should be considered monopolies, because once the few big 'competitors' are in bed together, they may as well be one company.

-sam

Re:Guilty until proven innocent?

[Tackhead]

> this is also why the RIAA and the MPAA should be considered monopolies, because once the few big 'competitors' are in bed together, they may as well be one company.

Oh, great. Stop giving Rosen and Valenti ideas.

"We notice that you have both a television and a computer with speakers and a CD-ROM drive. The HCA (Home Content Alliance) would like to audit your home to ensure that you're entitled to view all the content you happen to own.

Your credit card records show that your purchases of DVDs and major-label CDs are in the first quartile - that is, 75% of the population purchases more RIAA and MPAA-endorsed content than you. Are you sure you're legit?

If you're not legit, we're offering an amnesty. You have until January 31, 2002 to purchase the CDs of all the MP3z you've ever listened to, and the DVDs of all the DiVX ;-)'s you're watching.

Our agents will be breaking down your door^W^W^W^Wcontacting you shortly. Thank you for helping support our efforts to bring Americans more quality entertainment!"

Re:Guilty until proven innocent?

[saihung]

I remember the BSA's ad campaign in New York City last year. Big subway ad with a bullseye over an apple and the words "New York City, We're Coming for You" underneath. I was thrilled to see the ad; that kind of obnoxious crap will only push legit users away from the software companies that sponsor it. I even managed a couple of new Linux installs in the weeks after the campaign started - a server at work and a friend's machine.

Re:Guilty until proven innocent?

[pickanothername]

Wait, aren't cartels illegal in the states? I mean, I seem to remember being taught in HS Civics that it is illegal for any group of companies to get together and arrange for price hikes (seen the localized gas hikes of 2000?), or to limit access of products to particular groups.

It seems to me that Corporate America and Civil America (that would be we citizens) have forgotten that cartels are illegal.

Is the BSA a form of cartel? I realize that they are independent, but what of the independent enforcers of Chicago in the 20s and 30s? They avoided prosecution by not being 'part of' the cartels they enforced.

"Damn the Man. Save the Empire." -Empire Records

The BSA threatened me (or rather, "Stumpy McGee")

[IvyMike]

A while back, for work, I had to download something from Microsoft that required "a Passport account." As it turns out, they accept hotmail accounts for this purpose, too. The particular hotmail account's used here had a "real" name of "Stumpy McGee". However, when I signed up for the account, I did use my real USPS mailing address.

Flash forward six months. I start receiving random mailings from Microsoft, Adobe, etc., warning Stumpy McGee of "Fancy Schmancy Puters" that he's probably got pirated software in his company, and that disgruntled employees are lining up to report him, probably. The letter left little doubt that Stumpy was headed for big trouble. But of course, Stumpy could run the "Self-Audit" software and they would take it easy on him.

My question: Has anybody actually run this self-audit software? (I don't think they have a Linux version, so I was out of luck. Did I say "I was out of luck?" I meant Stumpy was out of luck, not me...) What exactly does the spyware do on your system?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Licensing

[Sobrique]

TV licenseing authority in .uk do the same (yes, I know you don't have that in many other places, but we get no adverts).
They send nasty letters saying 'We know you don't have a TV license, and you're breaking the law' even when you don't actually have a TV.
That said, if I got a letter like that from the BSA I'd probably go round a few machines to check. With the best will in the world wrt to legit software, your biggest problem is still going to be your users installing 'this copy of $PRODUCT that I borrowed off my mate'
BSA might be facists, but I suppose that software development houses do have a right to protect their interests.
Long live open source!
(Of course, if you were running a linux shop, an officious thug might get really confused when you point out that no, actually you hadn't paid for a license for... well almost anything actually. And then you'd have the headache of fishing out all those GPL license agreements which of course, everyone keeps a hard copy of, to get them to go away :))

Re:Licensing

[Anonymous Coward]

We have a great many adverts, just not on BBC1/2 which don't have much decent programming anyway, Robot Wars and Trek excepted. It's annoying that we *have* to pay for those channels whether we watch them or not, they should sell licence free TV's with special tuners that can't pick them up or something.

UK TV licensing officers may have police style uniforms (this is of course deliberate), but they have no right of entry into your home. You have to invite them, or they must be accompanied by a police officer, and we all know how unlikely that is with our overstretched force. Also the number of handheld detectors is greatly exaggerated, because they're expensive. So if you get inspected which only happens every couple of years anyway, and they can't hear / see the TV, politely inform them that no, you don't have a TV. They will thank you and leave.

The one thing that can screw you is that large stores pass on lists of TV buyers to them. So buy from a small independent, or get a TV tuner card.

Bob

Re:Licensing

[ThePilgrim]

I actually don't mind paying the TV licences as some of that money goes towards radio and without that we would not have had

Yes (Prime)Minister
The Hitch Hickers Guide to the Galaxy
Goodness Grachous Me
The World Service
etc.

Re:Licensing

[Glytch]

I often wondered, would you need a TV license if your TV was just a PC tuner card?

Re:Licensing

[Sobrique]

Legally? Yes.
If you have _anything_ which is capable of being tuned to a TV channel, (BBC) then technically you have to buy a license.
Actually, I think they make an exception for a) a portable, or b) if you can demonstrate that it cannot receive BBC TV. And they seem to ignore TV cards cos it just isn't worth the effort (IIRC their detectors cannot 'find' a PC monitor since it works in a different way to a TV)
So in theory, if you had one of those funky radio scanner base stations, you have to get a TV license... :)

Re:Licensing

[Glytch]

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the info.

Freedom Software

[the_olo]

How many will voluntarily go compliant by seeking Freedom Software alternatives?

Re:Freedom Software

[Anonymous Coward]

You really can't "go compliant" by getting free software. Either you buy the most expensive license available for your company or you are taken to court. So you will still be forced into court by the BSA if you go free... at the same price of just buying licenses.

Nice spin Slashdot..

[onion2k]

..the BSA hires the Federal Marshals as mercenaries to help ensure compliance with their extortion..

Well, thanks for that nicely impartial journalist attitude there. Its amazing what a simple line can do to affect the inflection of a story.

Instead, how about..

'the BSA hires Federal Marshals to ensure the hard work and effort by its members is not stolen by parasitic scum who steal like common thieves.'

I develop software for a small company. I'm quite lucky to be where I am now, doing what I want to. I also work on OSS as a hobby.. (Such as a perl port of PG+ that runs Uberworld.) Trust me, if ever I meet someone offering me a 'warez' copy of something I wrote I certianly won't be giving them a big cheery grin..

Re:Nice spin Slashdot..

[Anonymous DWord]

Unfortunately, it's not the job of Federal Marshals to be "hired" and enforce software licensing for a company convicted of overcharging for its products. Is there no other crime that can be targeted, that we have to have Federal Governmental police support for a company?

Re:Nice spin Slashdot..

[Anonymous Coward]

I have also developed software for a small company,
and have been in involved in customer support for
a large company.. and have been disgusted at the quality of a lot of software that exists and the eagerness to rush the release of a product. To charge 100s or 1000s of dollars for something with hundreds of known bugs really can be considered as "extortion".
Imagine if you used a car for your business and an engine component resulted in the car being unusable, and the car company tells you it will take a week to fix it. Would you be annoyed? Then why should software companies be able to have similar lack of service?

Software companies - improve your customer service and product quality first, then you might have a right to demand payment.

Re:Nice spin Slashdot..

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't care if I see warez copies of software I wrote. If someone is going to buy it then they'll buy it and if not then I really lost nothing. Now if I find someone selling illegal copies of my software that is a very different story and I'll break their legs.

Re:Nice spin Slashdot..

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno...your version has an ugly spin on it also and seems to ignore the fact that these audits are forced down your throat.

Re:Nice spin Slashdot..

[nm42]

Hmm, if the software is really that bad, why run it at any price?
If you want/need it bad enough to use a stolen/pirate/warez copy, obviously you don't think it's all that worthless...

Re:Nice spin Slashdot..

[Joe U]

I also develop software for a small company. I would LOVE to see my software pirated more often.

It would mean that the software is about to achieve critical mass among users and even if I only get part of the revenue, it would pay off.

Piracy put Microsoft where it is today.

Re:Nice spin Slashdot..

[Anonymous Coward]

Piracy put Microsoft where it is today.

Well put. I don't think there's any doubt about that at all.

Re:Nice spin Slashdot..

[gnovos]

develop software for a small company. I'm quite lucky to be where I am now, doing what I want to.

And imagine how quickly your "small software company" would be out of business if I sent in an anonymous tip saying that you had illegal software and in response they took your computers as evidence. No matter that you were in compliance, you know. Sure they'll give your computers back eventually, but can your small business survive 5-6 months without them?

You know, I would love to have all the criminals in jail, but not if that means taking people one by one and throwing them in jail until they can prove that they are innocent...

Re:Nice spin Slashdot..

[maxpublic]

The spin seems pretty accurate to me. It used to be in this country that you were innocent until proven guilty; but we all know now that where a single dollar of corporate money is concerned such naive notions are a crock of shit.

There is no legal authority for conducting such an audit without a warrant from the court. A EULA provides no basis for signing away your protection against unreasonable search and seizure. And a judge isn't supposed to issue a warrant without clear probably cause. In other words you should be able to tell the BSA to "suck Bill's dick" and never be bothered by them again unless they can provide the required evidence for an actual warrant.

That's the theory, at any rate. But we all know that money can buy the law, the law can seize your computers and hold them for years without cause (a la Steve Jackson Games; look it up if you're too young to remember), and during the interim you'll go out of business. The BSA will never be punished and the police don't give a shit and aren't accountable; they do what money tells them to do knowing that while individual peons may fall the department assholes are safe as can be.

So the BSA makes threats knowing they can get away with it because they're quite capable of causing real pain to anyone they please without ever being punished for their actions.

Welcome to America, Inc.

Max

This is precisely what I have been talking about

[xxSOUL_EATERxx]

Note the use of Orwellian doublespeak euphemism in the BSA's chilling press release:

...for whatever reason, some businesses may not have managed their software assets properly
Translation: Robbers! Sinners! Repent, O ye unclean ones!

The Grace Period ...is a great opportunity for businesses to resolve any compliance issues before they become subjects of a BSA investigation.
Translation: the Gestapo is on the way. Grab your ankles and smile.

The Business Software Alliance (BSA) is the voice of the world's software and Internet industry
Translation: The BSA is out to squeeze every last possible dollar out of software users

BSA worldwide members include Adobe, Apple, Autodesk, Bentley Systems, CNC Software/Mastercam, FileMaker, Macromedia, Microsoft, Symantec, and Unigraphics Solutions
No comment necessary.

Those who scoff at Open Source/GNU should consider whether they want to live in a world where the tentacles of the BSA and their ilk -- and in an increasingly digitized world, expect, oh yes, do expect similar organizations to crop up defending the interests of digital text publishers, media broadcasters, etc.-- extend, oozing, slimy and cold, into every crevice and opening of what we used to quaintly refer to as our "private lives".

Bunch of Crooks

[Anonymous Coward]

The BSA are a bunch of crooks, they have been threating companies in the UK with similar treatment.

We asked FAST (Fedaration against software theft), the more legitimate company, what to do with this and were advised to throw all notices from the BSA in the bin. Who are we to argue!

Umm, who cares?

[Moderation abuser]

These people are thieves. Nothing more, nothing less. Why should they be treated any better than a mugger?

Hell, they are treated a lot better. They are given a chance to do the right thing.

Re:Umm, who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that the legal system allows groups like the BSA to initiate action with no reprecussions when the defendant happens to be in the clear. The BSA gets to throw around a lot of clout because companies can't handle the expense of defending against a frivolous BSA lawsuit, even if they are 100% innocent.

Re:Umm, who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thieves? That is a bit harsh.

When I steal a physical object, like a car from your Mom, she no longer has her car. When I 'steal', software from Gnutella, I am depriving no one of their software, like I deprived your Mother of a car.

I feel it is disingenious to call that stealing or pirating, we should find another term for not paying for software.

Re:Umm, who cares?

[Zocalo]

When I 'steal', software from Gnutella, I am depriving no one of their software, like I deprived your Mother of a car.

Sorry, but this argument is typical warez k1dd13 bullshit. Theft is when you illegally deprive someone of something that is rightfully theirs. Software piracy deprives the retailer, distributor and manufacturers of the software you stole of some revenue. You might get some satisfaction from hitting out at the evil corporations, but there is no avoiding the issue that piracy is still theft.

If you can't afford the software then you can either become a criminal, or, you can wake up, smell the roses, and move to the world of free software. It's not always a smooth ride to get there admittedly, but the destination makes it all worth while when you do.

Re:Umm, who cares?

[mpe]

The BSA gets to throw around a lot of clout because companies can't handle the expense of defending against a frivolous BSA lawsuit, even if they are 100% innocent.

But how well do you think the BSA would stand up were they the defendant, rather than the plaintiff?

Re:Umm, who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Theft is when you illegally deprive someone of something that is rightfully theirs.

You mean, like a shop or restaurant owner, who does not pay his protection money?

Software piracy deprives the retailer, distributor and manufacturers of the software you stole of some revenue.

Yeah, indeed that shop-owner deprived the local mob under whose protection he lives of some well-deserved protection money.

You might get some satisfaction from hitting out at the evil corporations, but there is no avoiding the issue that piracy is still theft.

You might get some satisfaction from hitting out at the veil mob, but there is no avoiding the issue that not paying your "tax" is still theft.

And you should not be astonished if one day, some guys in dark suits with baseball bats pay your establishment a kind visit...

Re:Umm, who cares?

[swv3752]

No, you are wrong. The correct term is copyright violation. Is it a Crime? Yes. Is it the same as theft? Not quite. Please use correct terms, instead of wrong, emotionally charged ones.

Copyright violations deprive a company of "potential" sales. If copyright violators, could not violate copyright for whatever reason, they still might not ever purchase a version of the software. They might use a free demo version, some cheaper software, or Free(or OSS) software. They even might not use anything at all. With theft, the sum total of your assets is less than before theft. With a copyright violation, your assets are the same before and after the violation. See the difference?

Re:Umm, who cares?

[arkanes]

I agree that the arguments that it's "okay" are generally bull honkey, but lets not get excessive. You aren't depriving anyone of anything that is "rightfully theirs". Nobody has a right to profit. It's piracy, not theft. Heck, it's not even piracy (assualt and robbery on the high seas?), it's copyright violation. It's very good for our industry that it's possible to sell software, but heck, it was very good for the coal industry to keep it's miners in perpetual serfdom. It's important to remember - there is no right to profit!

Re:Umm, who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Which people are you talking about?

"The List"

[ImaLamer]

I know that I've signed up for magazine trials using business names, my mother's house is even registered at Microsoft because I wanted something for free from them many years ago.

Will they call me? What happens when they show up and see my blank CDs sitting next to my PC? I don't use them for piracy, but I'm betting they will be all over me like flies on shit.

I hope ZDNet hasn't sold them their list from PCWeek magazine, or the like. Do you know how many web sites make you put something down for 'company' or 'job title'. Plenty of sites want that data for marketing, but it doesn't always apply.

Re:"The List"

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope ZDNet hasn't sold them their list from PCWeek magazine, or the like.

No; they got the info from Lindows :
http://slashdot.org/yro/02/01/15/0227231.shtml

:)

Methods, means and policy

[mpawlo]

From a business perspective the copyright proprietors need to protect their revenue sources. Thus, scaring companies to pay for their product through BSA is one method of achieving this.

Under current copyright and contract law, BSA is free to represent its members and do what's described in this article.

However, I find its methods too severe and too aggressive. BSA should consider helping the companies to comply with licenses rather than scaring them and send in the police. If BSA developed a good license administration tool and released it under the GNU GPL or any open source license with the source code, I think many companies would improve in their license compliance.

Some companies will steal anything they can, but most companies are serious and should not be treated as criminals. Doing a good license audit today is very costly and hard to administer for a small or medium sized company. BSA should treat the potential costumers of its members with respect and appreciate this problem. Developing an administrative solution and perhaps a license crawling spider - with very open code - is a much better way of helping the companies than by using cease-and-desist-letters.

Hence, BSA should consider a different and more customer friendly policy. We, the public, should consider an evalutation of the copyright system for computer programs at large.

Regards

Mikael

Re:Methods, means and policy

[crucini]

BSA should consider helping the companies to comply with licenses rather than scaring them and send in the police.

BSA gets to keep the money they collect from their victims. "Helping" doesn't sound very lucrative. Given that they are making millions right now, why exactly would they want to switch? And why would they want to reduce the uncertainty in software licensing? If software licensing were airtight, BSA would not be able to threaten anyone, and they'd be out of business.

Stumpy may save your life?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not familar with the US process but I guess that in order to issue a warrent they will need the correct name on the address? So when the Marshell shows up looking for Stumpy McGee they won't be able to come in?

I am 100% supportive of this...

[bani]

And let me explain why.
(moderators: this is not a troll.)

The harder the BSA come down on companies like a ton of bricks, the more attractive open source alternatives will be.

The microsoft licensing schemes are so convoluted that even if you buy stuff from legit resellers bundled with your PCs, you still may be technically in violation of m$ licensing, depending on how your software is being used.

It's almost impossible for large corporations to be 100% sure of total compliance, even if all their software is purchased legitimately. And the BSA knows this. It's exactly like the mafia's "protection" racket.

Fortunately corporations now have a legit means of escape. Replace NT servers with Linux ones. The cost of switching to Linux might be high, but often the cost of having to "get compliant" is higher. And Linux is a one time cost, whereas you can be assured the BSA will be knocking on your door regularly if they think they can get away with it.

So I say bring on the BSA gestapo! They will be inadvertently helping promote open source alternatives, it's better promotion than Linux could ever buy (though we can exploit the situation if we choose :-)

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[krmt]

The flipside is that if they comply, and the majority will, they will find that they have invested enormous amounts of money in the software now, and they are damn sure going to get their worth out of it! This will close up chances for Free Software on these kinds of systems, because no business is going to replace their brand new expensive software with Linux after paying out the ass.

I'm more scared about this personally. These companies, particularly Microsoft, are so well entrenched that they can do this. It means that they have the majority of companies by the balls, and they can do what they will to them. Sure, Free stuff will seem attractive, but the bottom line is that they will want to get the maximum value out of their investment. Scary.

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[-brazil-]

no business is going to replace
their brand new expensive software with Linux after paying out the ass.

No, but when they realize that they are being harassed even though they paid "out the ass", they might remember this next time they need new software.

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[Thor Ablestar]

You lose your money when you pay for the thing, not when you throw it to the garbage can.

See Previous-Investment trap here.

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[PrimeNumber]

We are flowing my brother, I agree, and that is why I sent redhat@schwartz-pr.com (Redhats press agency) a message stating that they should place ads in the "target" cities, along with links to the BSA and this Slashdot article for background info.

I do what I can.

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[treat]

You lose your money when you pay for the thing, not when you throw it to the garbage can.

That is not how (big) businesses think. When wasting a large amount of money on something frivolous - especially software - the people responsible don't want anyone to realize it was a mistake. They do everything they can to keep people from using any software that competes with their solution (that they probably got a kickback for anyway).

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[fungai]

You're right. About 4 years ago our company was about 50 people small, and we got an opportunity to become a MCP (Microsoft Cerified Partner), because an MCSE joined our company. At that stage it sounded great, the marketing people really liked the idea of being a "Microsoft Partner" and on top of it we got a buch of software licenses with the deal. It included (but was not limited to) an exchange server with 50 CALs, SQL server with 50 CALs etc etc. So ofcourse when later that year we started investigating a new mail server exchange was the obvious choice. It had everything we need, plus a buch of other "cool stuff". Up till then we were a Novell / Linux shop on the server side. So we basicially start using exchange 'cause we can do it for free and exveryone's happy (it's actually quite stable any everything). The next year, however, we want to renew our MCP program. Only this year we only get 1 Server (instead of 5) and 10 CALs. Which means for us and our branch office we have to buy 2 licenses of WinNT + Exchange + 40 CALs. Quite expensive for a small company. Forward back about 3.5 years and we are 250 people and MS sends us 'scare letter' and we have to buy about 200 NT + exchange CALs. Also a lot of money. In any case, there's no way getting rid of exchange now. Worst decision I ever made.

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck is wrong with th moderators who consider this a troll?

If you disagree, its not a fucking troll, you fuck-wit moderator!

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[Drgnkght]

This is too true. I work as a receiving clerk at a warehouse (company name withheld for obvious reasons), an executive recently (about a year ago) instituted a new program to "simplify" yard management. That's a fancy way of saying "Where the heck is that trailer?" It is completely worthless, if anything it slows everything down. Trailers are almost never where it says they are. (I could go on like this for some time, but I'll spare everyone.) But since this was someone's pet project, it'll probably be here longer than I will.

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[ergo98]

Pretty tricky, eh? They did the same thing with the Visual Studio package: The new MCP agreement includes no Visual Studio licenses, whereas the old included 5 licenses. So similar to your scenario they get you using it and hooked (the expensive Enterprise edition), and then they pull it leaving a $12,000 expense awaiting you.

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[Svartalf]

"The flipside is that if they comply, and the majority will, they will find that they have invested enormous amounts of money in the software now, and they are damn sure going to get their worth out of it! This will close up chances for Free Software on these kinds of systems, because no business is going to replace their brand new expensive software with Linux after paying out the ass."

Drawback with "compliance" is that they'll be coming by a-knocking again in due time pushing for more audits and more compliance. It's like any other protection racket. Sure, this is initially going to close some doors, but there's only so many businesses out there to roust- they're going to have to go through the process all over again in a couple of years.

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[fungai]

yup. from now on we buy whatever we use to avoid nice surprises like this. we only use the mcp for the marketing value and msdn subsciption. every year they change it to the detrement of their "partners".

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

This will close up chances for Free Software on these kinds of systems, because no business is going to replace their brand new expensive software with Linux after paying out the ass.

This is something of an issue of "IT Department marketing". No, the higher-ups probably wouldn't be too fond of the idea of "throwing away the stuff we bought"....but they might have no problem whatsoever with "free OS and software upgrade licenses (for, e.g. Linux or BSD and Apache, etc.) available for NT and IIS users (and everybody else, but you don't need to emphasize that, necessarily...)"

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[Winged Cat]

Ah, what was that quote?

"The tighter your grip, the more planets will slip through your fingers."

Re:I am 100% supportive of this...

[derobert]

Which is why they come down on only a few companies. As long as they don't come down on many people, the bean counters look at the situation and ask which is the cheapest way:

1) Switch completely to free software
2) Implement internal software auditing,
configuration control, etc.
3) Ignore the issue, hope it doesn't happen
to us.

Remember, your expected costs are how much it'd cost time the chance of it happening. If three out of 700,000 people who get the nastygram actually get audited, well, that's a pretty low expected cost. Still scary. So, in order to avoice big liabilities, they think of doing something. (1) gets thrown out as being expensive. That leaves (2) and (3) to be considered. The BSA just has to pull a balancing act --- and a rather easy one at that --- to try and make it (2). That gets their members the most money.

The only chance of (1) happening is for a very small (a few people) company, or for a new company. Not much chance of it, as long as the BSA plays its hand right.

GASP options

[nzhavok]

Gee I went to their GASP download page but could only find the versions for 9x, NT and OS8.0 what about people with real^H^H^H^H alternative OS's? I suppose anyone running OSX or linux can just grease up and bend over.

Oh and I hope they encoded those mp3's with a legal codec ;-)

Re:GASP options

[3141]

Well, Encspot reckons that the codec used is a Fraunhofer one, though this doesn't tell you anything about the legality. What I found amusing though was the ID3 tag listed the genre as "Blues."

Re:GASP options

[SuiteSisterMary]

I love how you need to register for the software; how much do you want to bet that it puts you on the 'Po$$ible Licen$e I$$ues, call immediately!' list?

RIAA

[inKubus]

Imagine if the RIAA sent a card to every person in America asking them to sign a statement saying they don't own any pirated music, and if they don't sign, you can be raided by federal marshalls for suspicion of piracy. A long time ago, I thought 2002 would be a good year. Finally peace on Earth, regular space missions, a moon base, etc. Instead we have endless bickering over a few dollars worth of binary digits that somehow do something that is expected to be traded for money or something else of value. A few dollars worth of binary digits that, if you refuse to Opt Out of a legal battle by signing a statement, will mean you are subject to illegal search and seizure. This would be like the Government sending a card for everyone to sign stating they "don't have any illegal weapons" and if you don't sign, you are immediately suspected of owning illegal weapons. Whatever happened to the 5th Amendment? Whatever happened to being innocent until PROVEN guilty? Are they going to take that right away now?

Re:RIAA

[Anonymous Coward]

Plain and simple. This is Domestic Terrorism.

Re:RIAA

[Safety Cap]

Whatever happened to being innocent until PROVEN guilty?

Sorry, that is a myth. If you were presumed innocent first, you never would have been charged with a crime, or--in this case--be suspect of piracy.

Don't forget the kids!

[Wee]

Whatever you do, don't forget to indoctrinate the kids as part of your campaign for social justice for software licensing. And remind the kids what they can do when they find a pirate. You may think of a pirate as mom or dad, but they are really thieves who should be reported immediately. As Chad Codemaster knows, there can be no innovation if software is copied. God forbid what would happen if the actual source to a program got released to the thieving masses. How would a developer eat?

-B

Re:Don't forget the kids!

[mip]

Damn right! If we don't ensure that the kids fight against the evil piracy, protecting the democratic ideals of intellectual property and inflated prices enforced on captive markets, then Microsoft wouldn't be able to make $2.41 billion profit in three months. Where would be then? How could we call ourselves morally sound if a single company couldn't make more money per year than many countries around the world, e.g. Albania? (No Mr Bush, its in SE Europe, not just outside Vermont ;)

So come on people! Its important to ensure that we crack down on those who cannot afford to buy ridiculously overpriced products, otherwise the rich won't carry on getting richer, and the poor won't be further enslaved to products they don't need but have be told to want.

Seriously though, it is times like this that are the perfect opportunity for the free-software advocates to get out there and push their product. Dammit, advertise, promote, market - let the common Joe or Jane know how they can break their bonds and join a community that ins't there to fleece them for every penny, but to try offer a more fulfilling alternative. And yes, money can and should be made from open source, but there is a difference between making money and gathering a treasure trove dragon-like.

I would love to see Mr Gates and ask him, "why are you collecting so much money? What are your motivations? Do you really believe you are Smaug?"

Oh, I'm British btw, so I probably should just shut up, but I do the same here: everyone I talk to about software i try to explain the benefits of OSS. I hope I am slowly getting through.

~Dan

--Fools going past what they need running after what they want. -- TK

Re:Don't forget the kids!

[trkball]

Jeez, that is so damn scary.

Does Chad work for Microsoft? ;-)

Re:Don't forget the kids!

[ThePilgrim]

Wasn't there somthing in 1984 about the INGSOC youth ratting on their parents?

Re:Don't forget the kids!

[Anonymous Coward]

We already have serial numbers that people buy. Why not move them over to a rental system. Once we have them moved over to a rental system, the majority of the numbers will become permanent. People will just keep renewing. Once them become permanent, to help the licensee, we can have the number put somewhere in a permanent fashion. Once we have it in a permantent fashion, all we need to do is sort those who have paid, and those who have not. We would be able to tell who paid, just by looking at his/her number.

Let us offer a bounty to those who turn in the criminals. We need to know where they are at all times, to monitory theft, you know. Ohh, and by the way, we can have the permanent number tatooed on the forearm of each person so that he/she can read it easily. Ohh, there was someone who did this fairly well. Can't quite remember who though... I think that guy had kids turning in parents and grandparents as well. Seemed to work well for him and his geheime staatspolizei.

Does anyone realize they are actually using the same tactics?

Re:Don't forget the kids!

[madGenius]

I do not know about 1984, but the Nazi party used that policy to dispose of dissentors - and we know they were not a nice bunch.

Re:Don't forget the kids!

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope I am slowly getting through.

I don't know about that... but you're quickly getting annoying. ;-)

Seriously, people don't care. It's like your mechanic railing against the evil car makers who could make engines so much more efficient and easier to fix, blah, blah, blah.

Not that I don't agree with you, and somebody should try. But it does make you boring.

Re:Don't forget the kids!

[Archanagor]

Wonderful.

My GOD! They're a brainwashing propaganda machine.

I think I'm gonna be sick to my stomach, now. This is horrific. This makes them even more disgusting.

I cry for this world, and what it is becoming.

Re:Don't forget the kids!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is true.... Hitlers\b\b\b\b\b\b I mean the BSA's Kids association helps ... Watch mommie and daddy.. do they exibit badspeak or ickyacts? Examples are changing the channel instead of enjoying the 30 second commercials, not listening carefully to every telemarkerting call or talking about using EVIL anti-american things like open source or free software. bad words like BSD or linux or napster or mp3 or ogg-vorbis are signs of evil parents that need to be reported....

so remember kids! be good, and call your local SS chapter and report your parents for re-programming today!

(This sarcasim brought to you by the Letter Z)

Re:Don't forget the kids!

[cpscgeek]

Sounds like the BSA trying to make the kids their version of the Hitler Youth.

Re:Don't forget the kids!

[fedos]

Yes, the main character's neighbor was either turned in by his kids of afraid that they would turn him in.

Re:Don't forget the kids!

[Happy Monkey]

Worse - it was copyright Scholastic, Inc. They make those mini-newsletters given to school kids.

Re:Don't forget the kids!

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG, I just read that as "Socialistic, Inc."

I had to do a double-take. Nope. was Scholastic

Re:The BSA threatened me (or rather, "Stumpy McGee

[Anonymous DWord]

That Stumpy. Never thinking ahead. He should never have pissed off ol' KnickKnack Wotherspoon, his disgruntled employee. No wonder he got reported.

I love automated letters. You can always tell who sold their mailing list when you start getting mail for "Firstname Lastname."

Why is the BSA running Apache on FreeBSD ?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the BSA is so concerned with the royalties for
their members, why are they running Apache on FreeBSD ? Now how do you like them apples :-).

Re:Why is the BSA running Apache on FreeBSD ?

[daemonc]

Same reason everyone else runs it: They don't want their web server to get r00ted every other day.

Re:Why is the BSA running Apache on FreeBSD ?

[fremar]

They probablycould not afford to pay for their license of WinXP + IIS :)

Re:Why is the BSA running Apache on FreeBSD ?

[swv3752]

I thought it was because they wanted to have an easy way to maintian the appropriate licences in case they ever got audited.

mod that up!

[Barbarian]

mod the parent of this up. mod this post down

Scout Oath

[GameMaster]

Be Prepared....to upgrade to our software or else!

-GameMaster

forced audit?

[Barbarian]

So under what terms do they force this audit? Is this part of the large site license agreements that companies sign onto?

Re:forced audit?

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

I'm speaking here as someone who, a couple years ago, was working in the IS department of a company which was hit by one of these threatening letters.

Generally, they instruct the target company to run their auditing software to "prove" that they are in compliance with all software licenses on site. Such letters of instruction usually include a threat of legal action if the company does not comply. The threat is their standard operating procedure - it doesn't matter if you are 100% legal.

Since most companies would rather not pay to defend against a frivolous lawsuit, or risk an oversight of some software than Joe Employee may have installed, they end up performing the audit. The BSA doesn't offer any compensation for IS hours lost due to this audit.

They also arrange penalties for any discovered "violations". Some of these can quickly get out of hand. For example, in my case, a copy of WordPerfect 5.1 (yes, in 1997!) was lying around on a Netware server which 350 people had access to. Nobody even knew it was there. Guess how many times that violation stacked up, even though no one was using the software.

Although Slashdot's writeup sounds biased, it really IS extortion taking place.

- SEAL

Re:forced audit?

[Anonymous Coward]

And guess what - if you were performing periodic audits on your systems you would 1. not be complaining about the cost since you've already budgeted for it and 2. would have found that piece of software on a network share which should have been removed a *long* time ago.

What is so hard about periodically auditing your software? And why aren't companies big and small budgeting for it?

Re:forced audit?

[Ubergrendle]

Because it doesn't add anything to the bottom line! It is not a profitable activity; it serves no purpose but to make money for another company. I do not audit my employees to confirm that they pay the government the right amount of income tax; i do not audit the cars in our parking lot to confirm they're license plates are up to date. Our company pays up front rate for a new computer loaded with standard software: Win2k, MS Office; and some other utilities. We've paid up front for licensing. I should not be required arbitrarily to have to audit at the behest of another company. If a company comes through clean from one of these audits, I hope they sue to BSA for the costs.

Had a call from BSA once ...

[Nicolas MONNET]

They offered to help me track down potential license infrigements. And certainly, I could provide him with a list of software I'm using.

The comical effect was lost as the clueless telemarketer could'nt find "lunix", "apache" and "perl" in his list.

"It's open-s... nevermind, I have a meeting bye"

How's the law ?

[Molina the Bofh]

I don't know how the law in America is, but I believe the marshalls would need a judge order to invade a business place, wouldn't they ? Or can they simply break in any place they feel like and confiscate everything?

It's also my understanding that this judge order would require some kind of piracy proof to be issued.
Wouldn't it create the chicken-and-egg problem ?

How does it work ?

Re:How's the law ?

[cyclist1200]

You're right on every count.

Re:How's the law ?

[kindbud]

Graft. An order can be obtained from a judge if he is properly lubricated first. But this is usually not necessary, since there are plenty of judges who are simply derelict, and will sign any order presented to them.

Re:How's the law ?

[SuiteSisterMary]

The BSA will often claim an 'anonymous tip' and that'll get the court order. You can assume they know which judges to go to, as well.

Go BSA!

[TheFrood]

Do these BSA guys realise what they are doing? Scaring off their customers? Being extremely arrogant and intrusive? What about that old adage of your customer being the king?

I guess _this_ is one of the best reasons for switching away from vendors that are members of the BSA: None of those license troubles with free software. None of those expensive audits to do (is that included in those MS TCO calculations?). None of those guilt assumptions. No insecurity.

I think one of the main reasons free software hasn't caught on is that most people get their software (beer-)free anyway, whether it's supposed to be free or not. After all, why install and learn, say, Mandrake+KDE+KOffice when you can just install someone else's copies of NT and MSOffice and not have to learn anything new?

So as a free/open-source supporter, I'm all in favor of the BSA cracking down on copyright violators. If they make sure everyone pays full price for their proprietary software, people will start giving serious consideration to the truly free alternatives.

TheFrood

Fuck you, slashdot.

[GoRK]

No matter how you hype it, it's just not legal for a company to own (or sometimes not) a single copy of Adobe Photoshop or Microsoft Office and run it on 10's or 100's of computers. Somebody has to enforce the law or it breaks down. Incedentally, it's the same copyright law that keeps your GPL software free that they are protecting!

If they scare off their customers, GOOD! The companies have the option not to use proprietary licensed software, maybe if they get some fines, they'll consider the alternatives.

Jesus christ, they aren't sending Federal Marshalls storming into a business for no reason. That could not happen without some sort of precident. I don't believe that the BSA has ever done this and not uncovered mountains of software license violations.

Some of you editors are such fucking hypocrites to cry foul and hire in the gestapo when some company viloates the GPL in *A SINGLE CASE* yet you bitch and moan about your rights and privacy when Microsoft hires BSA to uncover *TENS OF THOUSANDS* of violations to their licenses. What's worse is that I probably hate M$ more than you do, but if there's one thing I can't stand, it's a stupid person. michael and chrisd are topping this list right about now.

~GoRK

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[Nicolas MONNET]

" No matter how you hype it, it's just not legal for a company to own (or sometimes not) a single copy of Adobe Photoshop or Microsoft Office and run it on 10's or 100's of computers. Somebody has to enforce the law or it breaks down. "

This somebody is supposed to be the "police" and "justice", or it breaks down.

"Incedentally, it's the same copyright law that keeps your GPL software free that they are protecting! "

The GPL uses the copyright system against itself. Without copyright, there would be little need for GPL.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[nzhavok]

So how well do you think it would be recieved if the Free Software Foundation went around threatening businesses in a similar way the BSA does. Would you be surprised if they hired US Marshalls and seized developers PC's to make sure there was no GPL violations. Hell, I would.

I agree that there should be contols in place to prevent software piracy, however threats and scare tactics should not be the standard policy. On the other hand, I think you are right that harsh and unfair punishment and tactics on their part are likely to lead more people to free software solutions in the end. However I'm still not going to agree with the means.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[Cryogenes]

Jesus christ, they aren't sending Federal Marshalls storming into a business for no reason. That could not happen without some sort of precident. I don't believe that the BSA has ever done this and not uncovered mountains of software license violations.

Did you read in the article that the BSA were sending like 700.000 of these threats at a time?
Obviously, all the evidence they need for sending someone a letter is that they run a business.

OK, now suppose your business has a clear policy of never using pirated software. So what can you do?

1. You run the self-audit software. It is closed-source spyware, you have no idea what it will report, and you cannot expect any compensation if it breaks your mission-critical machine. This is an ugly option and there is no good reason why a honest businessman should be subjected to it. And nobody, guilty or innocent, would subject themselves to this voluntarily.

2. You "refuse to cooperate". Then you will get a visit from law enforcement, probably greatly disrupting your operation. Moreover, if they find anything wrong - your sysadmin made a mistake, or some stupid employee downloaded a serial number for Winzip - then you will have to pay for the exercise. Even if everything is actually perfect, something may be construed against you and you will face further expenses defending yourself.

Now tell me again that this is only fair.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[mpe]

No matter how you hype it, it's just not legal for a company to own (or sometimes not) a single copy of Adobe Photoshop or Microsoft Office and run it on 10's or 100's of computers.

?Acually there is a fairly obvious situation where this would be perfectly "legal" That is where the company in question has the relevent licences.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[Wire Tap]

He did say a single copy, so we can presume he meant a single liscense. :)

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[Hard_Code]

Perhaps you want to live in a society where everybody has free reign to invade your life to verify that you are indeed not breaking any laws, but I'd sure as hell live in one where I was presumed *innocent* before proven guilty, not the other way around. The BSA should not be able to use scare tactics to single out and destroy arbitrary companies. Do you think this is a good thing? They should either bring lawsuits against ALL companies, and either lose the suits or engender so much bad will that nobody will every want to use their products, or not bring any at all. Any one company should not be allowed to scaremonger and arbitrarily cripple other companies by yelling "fire" in the free market.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[Anonymous Coward]

"The GPL uses the copyright system against itself. Without copyright, there would be little need for GPL."

LOL That is a nice retread of an old GPL line.
If it was truely so then they would have never created GPL and gone with a BSD license instead. But no they wanted to force giving back to the community. Almost like a copyright holder dictating the terms of use OR to take it a step further the MPAA et al securing dvd's with CCS (region encoding). If there was no copyright there would be no enforcable GPL. No forcing the hand of individuals or corps.

If you truely believe that you want to end copyrights on your work, a variation on the BSD license world keeps your software free (as in beer and speech), open (anyone can see your software source) and let others do with it as they want. If you cannot live with giving the world that freedom, YOU NEED copyright law to enforce your will on the masses.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[ErikZ]

I'm sorry, why ISN'T it legal to install software on more than one machine, or to run it off a server?

After all, the software doesn't care how many machines it's installed on. And you bought it to be installed on your machines.

Oh! The SOFTWARE companies don't want you to do this. Well. I guess since they are the law of the land, that makes it illegal.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[haruharaharu]

Jesus christ, they aren't sending Federal Marshalls storming into a business for no reason. That could not happen without some sort of precident. I don't believe that the BSA has ever done this and not uncovered mountains of software license violations.

Actually, they are. The last time this ran, someone recounted how the BSA raided their company (with federal marshalls), shut it down for 3 days, destroyed several Sun workstations while trying to run their software on them and then tried to walk away. Oh, and they didn't actually find anything.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[linzeal]

I'm just waiting for the post from some furniture factory on alt.religion.amish about this.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[tftp]

2. You "refuse to cooperate". Then you will get a visit from law enforcement

On what grounds?

Obviously, all the evidence they need for sending someone a letter is that they run a business.

I doubt any judge will dare to sign a search warrant based on that!

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[Wesley Everest]

Hell, even if all your software is legit, if you have unfree software on your systems, you might have lost your "papers" that prove you are a law-abiding citizen.

All the software at my work is legit, but you can bet some of the CDs are lost behind a filing cabinet somewhere. If they have no evidence that my company has pirated software, they have no legal right to force my company to pay me a few hundred dollars to dig through my office to find every last CD. And clearly, it is cheaper to just pay the money to the company. Sure sounds like extortion to me.

Here we have an organization that represents at least one criminal organization, shaking down businesses with a threat of illegal actions (raids without probable cause are unconstitutional, and frivilous lawsuits are also illegal) if they don't pay money. That's extortion. Sure, it's hard to make things stick against such powerful organizations, but that doesn't change the facts.

Someone needs to do a write-up on the expense of these raids. Clearly, this needs to be factored into Microsoft's "Total Cost of Ownership" bullshit, since MS-free companies have much less to lose in a raid.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[GoRK]

How do you think you'd feel if you wrote a GPL'd app and 10,000 variants sprang up all without source code and all publicly distributed? What if the police are doing nothing about it? How else do you fight it?

If you agree that there should be controls to prevent software piracy (ie license violations -- this would include both free/non-free software "piracy") then how do you propose these controls should be implemented?

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[GoRK]

Again, you don't have to buy the software if you don't like the license.

Your argument is kind of the same as saying "a car doesn't care who's driving it" so you shouldn't care if someone steals your car.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[nzhavok]

Yes of course this situation would annoy me (and flatter me a little as well) but I don't think it would push me to develop my own form of vigilante justice over the situation. Stealing software is rationalizeable to many people because it is a Robin-Hood-like crime, they a robbing from the rich and giving to the poor (themselves). To combat this Big Business tries to make piracy into the ultimate evil of the information age, you can believe that if you want but I just don't accept their view. $150,000 fine is just fucking madness, I think it's completely unjustified and the BSA knows it would rarely get that money i.e. most small businesses would go bust beforehand. The real reason of a fine that size is that it as used as a scare tactic, I wouldn't be surprised if they would threaten to cut off your pinky if they could get away with it legally. Personally I wish someone would sue the BSA for barratry.

Special police forces for industry interest groups are wrong, and this is what the BSA effectivly has.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[johnnyb]

Without copyright you could still use and copy it for free, or even disassemble it or reverse-compile it. I imagine those tools would be in even greater use.

Again, without copyright, there is no need for GPL.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot.

[noweb4u]

Here's one of the main differences though - GPL software is given away by the author with a simple condition that you not use the source in a closed source app.

Microsoft is the largest, and richest software company in the world. They could probably run forever without creating a single new product, because its damn near impossible to get a new computer that doesn't have their product paid for and installed on it. Microsoft (under the cover of the BSA) is doing this purely for greed reasons. The company has one of the largest cash reserves in the world, IIRC, and they really are not suffering without this income by any means. I'm not trying to justify copying software (that's another bag of worms) but these companies all make millions of dollars, and have no problems paying their employees, they are doing this purely for greed.

Baiting the BSA?

[homer_ca]

How about baiting the BSA? Like if a company runs 100% Free Software, get a "disgruntled employee" to rat them out, and if they call piss them off enough to guarantee an audit. Then when audit day comes, you'll be ready with video cameras, your own lawyers (if you can afford them), and an office full of 100% Free Software. You might try to get a local news station interested in your video or you could make it a documentary film like Michael Moore's.

test

[Anonymous Coward]

test

Extortion?

[Chasuk]

Let's put this perspective. Let's say that I own a business manufacturing foo X's, and I have a friend who manufactures a related product (foo Y). We know that we are being illegally deprived of millions of dollars annually, but the law doesn't adequately protect us. We have been in our particular industry for a long time, and we each know of many other businesses in a similar situation. We form an alliance with all of these businesses, and we work with the government to help stop the crimes against us.

Suddenly, by announcing a grace period for these criminals, we are extortionists? Since when did extortion include benevolence?

The legal definition of extortion is: the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right. 18 U.S.C. S 1951(b)(2).

The key words here are wrongful use. Is it wrong, when someone has stolen something from you, to offer them a conditional amnesty? You steal from me, and not some hypothetic company, and I'll do everything I can to see you put in jail.

Calling this extortion is akin to the robbery victim who pleads on the news for the return of his wallet - no questions asked - and all will be forgiven: is the victim then the extortionist?

I note that Borland, the developers of Kylix, is a member of the BSA. Are they evil for expecting people to pay for some of their products? Or, because Microsoft is also a member, does that mean that OF COURSE it is extortion, and OF COURSE the federal marshals are mercenaries? Or will the federal marshals be exempted when they are protecting your ass on an airliner?

Is that the equation? Federal Marshals On Airlines = Good Guys, Federal Marshals Helping Microsoft/the BSA = Bad Guys? And if the BSA are really extortionists, does that make the marshals guilty of aiding and abetting?

Re:Extortion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it wrong, when someone has stolen something from you, to offer them a conditional amnesty?

It is wrong if a cop stops you for speeding, and then says: "Good morning, that's $150. But we can cut a deal for $50 if you don't need a receipt". Even if you did actually speed.

Re:Extortion?

[banky]

I think the difference is, that they're a private individual (corporation) going after another individual (corporation) and because the former (BSA) has more money than the latter (me), they can buy sufficient legal strength to potentially deprive me of my rights; the government could not use the tactics the BSA does without getting in big trouble.

Re:Extortion?

[fnj]

The legal definition of extortion is: the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right. 18 U.S.C. S 1951(b)(2).

That is not the definition in the real world. Merriam Webster: "to obtain from a person by force, intimidation, or undue or illegal power : wring." INTIMIDATION. That's the part of what's going on that we're taking issue with here.

Re:Extortion?

[Anonymous Coward]

>Is it wrong, when someone has stolen
>something from you, to offer them a conditional >amnesty?

in the civilised world, you would complain to law enforcement and let them do the investigation. this is not about a breach of contract (since the infringing company never agreed to it in the first place), but about supposed theft.

Re:Extortion?

[nolife]

We know that we are being illegally deprived of millions of dollars annually.

How do you just "know" this and how do you know who much or what the extent is? How do you know WHO is doing it and to what extent? Are you going to try to use averages to justify searching everyone?

I'll do everything I can to see you put in jail.

Including searching the business before even knowing that they are running your software?
So how do you know what companies are running your software? Should you just assume every business is and then make them prove they are not?

You are innocent until proven guilty in the US. You can not search without proable cause. You do not get probable cause because you are a business that some company targets software at. Even if past experierence shows 80% of companies searched had some fubar license issues does not give justification to search more. It plainly shows that 20% of your "probable cause" claims are completely false.

Imagine a MLA (Media License Assoc.) Imagine getting a letter in the mail stating a MLA rep will be by your house later in the week to examine ALL of your video tapes, audio cassettes, CD's, players, cable boxes, Macrovision removers, computer HD's, etc for unauthorized media. Would you let him in? After all, they got an anonymous tip stating you copied a Shrek DVD onto VHS so the kids could watch it in the van but they left it playing in the family room when they went for a trip in the van. I bet there is a better chance a consumer would have some form of illegal media then a business has illegal software. Does this simple fact give probable cause to search everyones house?

Re:Extortion?

[bubbasatan]

Let's start this off here:

"We know that we are being illegally deprived of millions of dollars annually..."

Wrong. You are guilty of assuming that the people who pirate software would otherwise pay your company for that software. I can guarantee you that the guy who steals cars would not otherwise pay GM, Ford, Toyota, etc. the value of those cars. The millions that you and the BSA and others like to flaunt as damages or deprivations are a bunch of crap, only touted to try to win sympathy for a bastard cause.

Next:
"The key words here are wrongful use. Is it wrong, when someone has stolen something from you, to offer them a conditional amnesty?"

Uh, yes. It is wrong. It is indicative of the fact that the BSA knows that what they're doing does constitute extortion under any legal or other definition of the term. The BSA has no legitimate power of their own. None. Zilch. Nada. They are not a law enforcement agency. Tbey are not a court of law. The only thing they are is a kangaroo court full of fools. When they attempt to use their illegitimate power to threaten me, "under color of official right," they commit extortion. Plain and simple. They have no right to interfere in any matter pertaining to me or my business. I do not have any contract with the BSA whereby I grant them license to extort my money/property. Perhaps they would like it if I investigated them for something animal poaching. I have no right to do so, nor any proof that they are actually illegally killing animals, but I'll surely grant them amnesty (conditionally, of course) if they will pay me a few hundred thousand dollars!

And finally:

"Calling this extortion is akin to the robbery victim who pleads on the news for the return of his wallet - no questions asked - and all will be forgiven: is the victim then the extortionist?"

There's a big difference. A robbery victim can usually offer pretty good evidence that he/she has actually been deprived of property. The BSA cannot. Instead, the BSA sends out hundreds of thousands of notices telling people/businesses that they are probably guilty of stealing, but they can be forgiven -provided they are willing to break out the checkbook. Isn't that what Jim Baker and the other televangelists used to do -- selling forgiveness? To further your analogy, the BSA is not pleading on the news for the return of their property. Rather, what the BSA is doing would be akin to rounding up a group of thousands of potential suspects, even though only a few may have actually committed the robbery, and telling them all that they could purchase amnesty for the low low price of $$$bling-bling. It doesn't mattter that the overwhelming majority are not guilty. All that matters to the BSA is that they collect enough money to remain solvent until next year's extortions begin. The BSA acts as though you are guilty until proven innocent, there's no way are you gonna sell me that vaporware.

Re:Extortion?

[Sloppy]

The key words here are wrongful use. Is it wrong, when someone has stolen something from you, to offer them a conditional amnesty?

No, there's nothing wrong with that. But that's only half of what these letters do.

Is it wrong, when someone has not stolen something from you, to threaten them with the prospect of a court order that they must hire an auditor? Is it wrong, when someone has not stolen something from you, to threaten to confiscate their computers as evidence (so that they can be examined to verify that no theft has occurred), leaving them to run their business without computers?

Don't you see how innocent people, who have not stolen anything, are being subjected to threats of force? These mailings are being sent to a lot of businesses, not just ones where there is a reasonable suspicion of theft.

Re:Extortion?

[cyclist1200]

"Is it wrong, when someone has stolen something from you, to offer them a conditional amnesty?"

Your message implies that the BSA has actual evidence that any particular company is not compliant, and isn't just sending out blanket threats demanding an audit or payment.

Re:Extortion?

[Anonymous Coward]

The government cannot? What are income taxes. Does "Voluntary Compliance" sound familiar? How do people lose their belongings and get stripped of their savings? No warrants are even necessary for the IRS to do it either. Troube? How can the government get in trouble when the executive and judicial branches are corrupt. The legislative branch is just clueless.

Re:Extortion?

[Anonymous Coward]

No it ain't extorsion. It's fucking domestic terrorism! Fuckwad.

Re:Extortion?

[Chasuk]

Let's start this off here:

Wrong. You are guilty of assuming that the people who pirate software would otherwise pay your company for that software.

The people who pirate software either do it for the kudos of their peers in the "l33t" warez community, because they are anal-retentive collectors, or because they actually use the software and a) can't afford to purchase it or b) can afford to purchase it but have no qualms about being thieves (or some combination). If they are using it, they should pay for it. So I am guilty of nothing. If you are using commercial software that you can afford to purchase and you choose not to, then you are a thief, and depriving programmers of their due.

Next:

Uh, yes. It is wrong. It is indicative of the fact that the BSA knows that what they're doing does constitute extortion under any legal or other definition of the term... and so on in an irrelevant tangent. You have refuted nothing with your bullshit. Verbiage without substance is easy.

And finally:

There's a big difference. A robbery victim can usually offer pretty good evidence that he/she has actually been deprived of property.

Again, bullshit. Federal marshals don't go marching into anyone's premises until they have convinced a judge to issue a warrant. INAL, but I do know that waarants aren't issued willy nilly. A judge has to be convinced, first, that a crime has been committed. Of course, sometimes mistakes will be made. However, I'd be willing to bet that, in the majority of cases, the BSA doesn't both securing a case unless they are near-100% certain that they can also secure a conviction.

Re:Extortion?

[Chasuk]

Are you going to try to use averages to justify searching everyone?

The BSA doesn't perform the searches unless they have been legally authorized to do so by a judge. This is not _everyone_, obviously, but only those businesses on whom the BSA has collected enough evidence that a judge is convinced of probable wrong-doing.

You are innocent until proven guilty in the US. You can not search without proable cause. You do not get probable cause because you are a business that some company targets software at.

See above.

Imagine a MLA (Media License Assoc.)... Imagine getting a letter in the mail stating a MLA rep will be by your house later in the week to examine ALL of your video tapes, audio cassettes, CD's, players, cable boxes, Macrovision removers, computer HD's, etc for unauthorized media.... I bet there is a better chance a consumer would have some form of illegal media then a business has illegal software. Does this simple fact give probable cause to search everyones house?

No, it doesn't. See above.

Re:Extortion?

[tumbaumba]

Your arguments are clear, you just forgot to reply to a post above. I put it below:

I think the difference is, that they're a private individual (corporation) going after another individual (corporation) and because the former (BSA) has more money than the latter (me), they can buy sufficient legal strength to potentially deprive me of my rights; the government could not use the tactics the BSA does without getting in big trouble.

P.S. I really want to know your opinion.

Re:Extortion?

[maxpublic]

How about taking the fucking strawmen and shoving them where the sun don't shine? If you're going to argue the point stop acting like a Microsoftie and reach beyond the chapter on "Diversion" you read in high school debate class.

While you're at it look up "innocent until proven guilty" and see how it's supposed to apply to American law.

Also try re-reading the Fifth Amendment, particularly where it mentions protection against unreasonable search and seizure, as well as what a warrant is and what's required to obtain it.

The BSA and it's cronies aren't exempt. Well, actually they are since the law in this country has bent over to become corporate whores, but technically your argument - aside from being pathetic intellectually - doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.

Max

What is it like?

[labradore]

I suppose BSA members have decided for themselves that they would rather attack people and instill fear and loathing to acquire money rather than to share what they have at no cost to themselves. On that basis the BSA activities sound immoral. The BSA member would seem to choose distrust of fellow men over community, generosity or respect. The BSA member does have a legitimate need to get a return on investment. Would you attack others as the BSA does to extract money if you already had what you needed? If you had more or much more than you needed? The wealthiest companies in the BSA are highly immoral by this standard.

If you were a struggling proprietary commercial software developer would you join the BSA? Would you want to be associated with the immoral wealthiest companies and individuals in its ranks?

I think a better tactic to use to keep the majority of your user group in the paying customer category is to make your product worth buying and to make your product more valuable when it is purchased from you. By virtue of its (limited) success RedHat seems to be a company that exemplifies this tactic since its product is available free almost everywhere but people and companies still buy its products and it is very nearly profitable. A proprietary software developer should have no problem finding ways to make its product more attractive to buy than to copy, since it doesn't have the handicap of selling Free software.

Re:What is it like?

[wfberg]

"The BSA member does have a legitimate need to get a return on investment"

while copyright is a legitimate right, there is NO such thing as a right on ROI. What next, companies sueing you for NOT buying OR illegally copying their software, therefore cutting off their main supplies of income, sales and litigation? Methinks not.

Re:What is it like?

[blibbleblobble]

More to the point, it's like me sending postcards to every home, office, and farm in france, demanding that they bring up-to-date their licenses for my "GraphicExplorer" program. (OK, it's GPL, but pretend for a moment it was costly)

Well obviously none of them use my program, and I'd probably be in french court fighting off allegations of slander, having accused these people of criminality with no good cause. And it would certainly prevent my ever doing business with these people, if I treated them like criminals.

I suppose it's the same as TV licensing here in the UK. I kept getting more and more threatening letters from the government, telling me that I would go to prison if I didn't immediately buy a license for my TV. Problem is, they forgot to check whether I owned a TV. Ignorant twats.

So yeah, people may defend this sort of action, they may point to a few software "?pirates?" and say that that justifies threatening everybody, but really, it isn't a good way to do business, and it isn't a good way to treat your neighbours.

Re:What is it like?

[Nicolas MONNET]

If you were a struggling proprietary commercial software developer would you join the BSA?
Is Microsoft a member of BSA? Are they struggling? Seriously.

Re:What is it like?

[kindbud]

...while copyright is a legitimate right...

Uhh, no. Freedom of speech is a right. Copyright is a privilege, a bargain to try and balance the right to free speech with a publisher's need to make a profit to stay in business and produce more content.

Re:What is it like?

[Zarquon]

Well.. they _were_ struggling with the DoJ, but now everyone knows it was just a big misunderstanding...

Re:What is it like?

[Anonymous Coward]

>Copyright is a privilege, a bargain

which has become a completely rigged system
owned and written by corporations to extract monopoly profits from people, with government
guns to back them up.

I'm a descendant of Shakespeare. Where are
my damn royalties? You thieves.

Why this is legal.

[Anonymous Coward]

I summarize why this is legal in my post here.

Basically, I'm saying that since they're merely telling you that they have reason to believe you might be doing something bad doesn't mean they're doing anything legally. What they send you doesn't mean jack, until they sue you in a court of law.
IANAL.

Re:Why this is legal.

[mirko]

So you mean you refuse to reckon you are wrong if the person that demonstrates it is not 100% clean itself?
Everybody should reckon their errors instead of just disclaiming their responsabilities and accusing something else.
If I am doing something bad and an idiot remarks it, then I'd rather repair my mistake (in this case, by either buying the software I use or switching to a 100% Free solution) before somebody eligible to kick my ass actually remarks it too.
So, this not a problem of legality but rather a problem of moral.

Now hold on a minute...

[LadyLucky]

I'm a software developer. I write java web applications. I would be extrememly pissed off to find out that someone is pirating my software, somewhere. If they do that, they deserve everything coming to them.

People will always find some excuse for piracy, but until someone is pirating YOUR software, i really dont think you have any right to excuse yourself. It's theft of intellectual property. Don't do it, even if you have philosophical problems with Microsoft.

Re:Now hold on a minute...

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem, as I understand it, is not that.

The problem with these watchdogs (like BSA and FAST), is that if they _suspect_ a firm of pirating software, they can technically seize all the computers a company owns that _may_ contain pirated software. In practice, this means all the computers the company owns.

So, even if the firm was not actually pirating software, the risk of a _suspicion_ is catastrophic; even if they are found to have had no pirated software, by the time the investigation is over the firm has probably gone bust because it couldn't do business without its computers.

This is a big boost for OS, then: if you use pure OS, the risk of even a suspicion arising is reduced.

Re:Now hold on a minute...

[Urine Idi0t]

I'm afraid it's you that needs to hold on a minute.

First of all, it is not theft of intellectual property. That is nothing more than a fiction of convenience that those who parasitically profit from so called 'intellectual property.'

I hate to break it to you and all of those deluded people who think that they're actually stealing something when they copy software, but it most definitely is not theft. Theft is depriving somebody of something whereby if I possess it then you don't--software fails that test miserably. I defy you to come up with a court case where the judge framed a copyright violation as such!

Repeat after me: Copying software is not piracy, or theft, or any other emotionally charged word that you or the IP cartels choose to attach to it. It is copyright infringement and nothing more.

Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is being disingenuous.

And if you think that copyright infrimgement has the same legal stature as theft, you're also badly mistaken. It is only by deluding the public at large (and you seem to have bought into it yourself) that copying software is the same as theft that the IP cartels have been able to whip up such hysteria so that they are able to get the Fed involved. It truly is amazing what you can do by repeatedly shouting a lie at the top of your lungs--eventually you get people to believe it.

Re:Now hold on a minute...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh boo fucking hoo....

If your app was good enough to be a great app and everyone wanted it then they would buy it if it was priced sanely.

99.995% of all apps pirated are crap and or horribly overpriced.

I am sick of the self-ritious "programmers" out there that think they are god's gift to humanity and they should be stinking rich by now driving ferarri's. get off your fricking asses and try working once instead of pissing and moaning like a bunch of 6 year olds.

Re:Now hold on a minute...

[LadyLucky]

Fuck you.

You have no right to copy what it took developers such as me our time, and thus our (or our employers money) to create. It is ours, and we are free to sell it to whomever we please. You may not copy it, period.

The fact that software can be copied with no direct "loss" to me is beside the point. There are plenty of indirect losses as a result of your selfishness.

This is not to say that a guily until proven innocent manner is the way to go. But trying to say that piracy is in any means OK is morally dispicable.

Re:Now hold on a minute...

[BitterOak]

I write java web applications. I would be extrememly pissed off to find out that someone is pirating my software, somewhere.

And I carry a wallet in my pocket. I would be extremely pissed off to find someone mugging me and taking my wallet. But that wouldn't give me the right to search 100,000 homes at random trying to find it.

Re:Now hold on a minute...

[LadyLucky]

I do agree with you on that point. I think the actions are on the extreme side.

What I object to is a justification of piracy as the reason why "searching homes" should not be done. I dont believe piracy is a valid reason, but I do believe there are valid reasons for why the searching should not be done.

Re:Now hold on a minute...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you back.

You reprehensible piece of self-righteous shit.

Just because you spent time writing software does not obligate me in any way to purchase it. To say that there are "indirect losses" is bullshit. There are no guarantees in life. I don't need your software. If I need the functionality, thank God that I don't have to be held sway to you and your despicable attitude (fuck you all--you're all pirates and thieves!)--I can write it myself and share it with the world...

You still don't get it. It's NOT piracy, there IS NO theft occuring! Can't you get that through your thick skull?

Get a fucking clue, you're on the losing end here. You're taking a risk in creating something that can be replicated with zero cost forever. That is not my fault.

The reality is, if you don't want it to be copied, don't release it. It's that simple.

Oh yeah, one more thing. Fuck you.

Re:Now hold on a minute...

[Anonymous Coward]

you are an idiot.

go take your self-righteous indignation and stuff it up your ass.

Don't believe the hype

[vandan]

These guys are nothing more than SPAMMERS.
So they have a database. Big woop; so do SPAMMERS.
Our company took the path "Oh SHIT. Buy licences for all our software, and QUICK!". Of course I managed to make a 30% saving by installing StarOffice 5.2, and then 6-beta. I suggest everyone else do the same. There are issues; there's no denying that it's 100% compatible etc. But for God's sake, it's sooooooooo close that it doesn't matter. So everyone find a friend who has downloaded StarOffice 6-beta (the beta period / download is over), or better yet have a go at OpenOffice. It rocks. And you'll never have licensing problems again. Still not convinced? How about searching on Google for StarOffice + pdf and following the instructions for setting up your own PDF writer via Ghostscript. It works like a fucking charm! People email us and say "Hey. That must have cost a bit...". And we say "Yes. Actually it was all free." Good stuff.
If someone can't find the PDF instructions, reply to this post and I'll email you the instructions.

Re:Don't believe the hype

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, thanks for the info! I'll try this out soonest!

AC

Re:Don't believe the hype

[Anonymous Coward]

It works like a charm is right! I followed the instructions and have been creating pdf documents with no trouble! Thanks again for the excellent tip!

AC

Hey!!

[mip]

No fair! How come the bad guys get to be called the Alliance? We're the rebels dammit! Bah, next thing someone will tell me N'Sync use Linux and are writing a handy little tool under the GPL...

~Dan

Re:The BSA threatened me (or rather, "Stumpy McGee

[Zocalo]

I love automated letters. You can always tell who sold their mailing list when you start getting mail for "Firstname Lastname."

I *never* use "Firstname Lastname". I always work something to do with the company whose list it is in there, and none too subtly either, so that if it turns up in spam I know who to bitch at. I'd like to see the look on their face when "Firstname Lastname" turned out to be "Microsoft Corporation". ;)

passive resistance

[Vermithrax]

Remember when they come through your front door that they are going to have to do their audit by hand, No installing softwre on your machine without your permission. That would mean you could demand that the marshals arrest them under various anti hacking laws,
No copying the contents of your computer. The registry on that windows box might be their file but by adding your own components to the box then you could claim it is a work of art and hence any attempt to decode the registry should be punished to the full extent of the DCMA. so instead of just inserting a disk and getting it to turn out a printout of installed software, they are going to have to go through it by hand.
refuse them access to any sections of the disk that may contain customer information on the grounds that you have similar contracts with your customers to guarantee the privacy of their data and so they cant have the machine or a copy of the disk for examination.
Always place your directories in a non obvious arangement so that it will take extra time to run the audit
prepare to go out of business whilst fighting their lawyers.

This of course is assuming your software is legal.

Re:passive resistance

[Amazing Quantum Man]

You forgot that you should use disk encryption software, so that when they try to break the disk crypto, they're in violation of the anti-circumvention clause. Surely, you've written something (a letter even), and stored on your encrypted filesystem, haven't you?

Is the BSA multinational?

[t0qer]

I went to the BSA site, and was reading the recent raids when I read this exerpt
Raided were Espina, Perez-Espina & Associates, an architectural and construction company located at the 2nd floor, The House of Architects, Juana Osmeña Ext., Cebu City, and, Arlington Engineering Services, an engineering design firm in Green Valley Subdivision, Lahug, Cebu City.

The NBI, after securing search warrants from Judge Benigno Gaviola of Cebu City Regional Trial Court, found four PCs of Espina, Perez-Espina & Associates allegedly loaded with unlicensed Adobe, Autodesk and Microsoft software. The NBI seized 13 PCs allegedly loaded with Autodesk software from Arlington Engineering Services. Total assets, including hardware and software, confiscated from the two raids was valued at almost P5 million pesos.

Well this just gives me terrified thoughts of the frito bandito crashing through my window screaming "BADGES? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN BADGES!"

Commercial Break....

[maroberts]

I have this idea for a Linux commercial for any distributor who wants to run it...

Scene: People working at PCs in Office
Suddenly the door bursts open and in come a group of lawyers accompanied by Federal Marshals

Lawyer: "Business Software Alliance! We're here to check all your software licences. If you are running illegal software you may be fined thousands of ponds and go to jail for 5 years. Here's our search warrant"

Manager: (smug grin) "Go ahead - we're all running Linux!"

Exit BSA....

Re:Commercial Break....

[SuiteSisterMary]

Or you could read this older ask slashdot comment that points out that they'll try to reformat Sun boxes to install their windows based piracy finders.

BSA are obviously afraid of the OSS movement

[Anonymous Coward]

The BSA are afraid of Linux and OSS

There's a good reason for the BSA to 'clean up' as much illegality now while they can. I truly believe that the BSA are scared of the incoming FREE software such as Linux, since it means they'll all be out of jobs.

In the same way as a road safety inspector might dread the onset of cars that don't crash (fearing his unemployment when accidents no longer happen).

The point I am trying to make is that the BSA clearly aren't in it for altruistic reasons. They're there because they can be.

X.

BSA/M$ driving businesses to open source options

[Anonymous Coward]

My boss got a letter from these dweebs. He owns the business and he had me look at it, since I'm a top employee.

We thought to have someone file an anonymous report and draw them over here. Just for laughs.

I am the chief technician, and got this job by offering to put all his legal records on a SQL database. I got him set up on a Linux based network and now he gets his data via a web based app that he can access at work, on the road, or wherever. We even have a Linux based file server.

Three workstations are here and they all run RedHat and open source software. Even the secretary has no problem working with it. KOffice, and konqueror. With KDE, who the fsck needs Windows? Our secretary put on her dumbest hat and had us tweak her workstation for all of 2 hours to make it even more comfortable and easy to use than her Windows box at home. She hasn't seen an application crash in like forever.

Bill Gates wept.

Setting up a business with Linux is so easy. A baby could do it. We sent a reply to the BSA stating, basically, that we use open source software and dweebs like them will make sure we evangelize other businesses to do the same.

And we back that up. I have 2 contracts to fulfill this month and next... both are businesses that want to chuck M$ and go with RedHat.

Re:Fuck you, slashdot. & Fuck you to

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no such things as justice or 'the law' in 'the free world'.

Justice is bought. Presidents are bought. Everything is for sale and has his price.

And Bill G., the poor lad, needs your money now to save his ass in court.

Have a nice day...

What self-audit software?

[wideangle]

You mean Belarc Advisor?

It's free, and doesn't report anything back to anyone.
In other words, it's not spyware or adware.

Actually a pretty useful tool.
Not only tells you what you have on your system,
but reports free memory slots and current CPU speed as well.

Print the output, use as a handy reference.
Should you ever reformat, the list might come in handy.

You'll likely discover software you didn't know you had.

Re:What self-audit software?

[zaren]

Sounds like Apple's pre-installed System Profiler software - gives you a run down of hardware, software, installed apps, what kind of devices are attached to your machine (hard drives, peripherals, how much memory in which slots, etc.), in a nicely formatted output.

Re:What self-audit software?

[Tackhead]

> [Belarc Advisor] You'll likely discover software you didn't know you had.

Well, from the standpoint of those who fund the SPA, isn't that the point?

"Shit, I don't remember ordering 30 licenses of XP and 5 copies of Adobe Premiere for my 30-person Solaris-only shop, but I must have, 'cuz the SPA's audit software said I did!"

Re:What self-audit software?

[sysiphus]

• Actually a pretty useful tool. Not only tells you what you have on your system, but reports free memory slots and current CPU speed as well.

Well, mostly useful. I like what it lists for my memory modules at work:
640 Megabytes Installed Memory
128 Megabyte Module Size - 1 Installed
2 Memory Sockets are Empty

So, I have 640MB of RAM in one 128MB module! Dang, I gotta buy a few of those for my home machines!

Also, while most of the software reporting is mostly useful, there are a few cases of the Belarc Advisor smoking crack. Here's a few programs I (apparently) have installed:
Description
Version 2.2
Text Document
and my personal favorite...
Separate Office documents from a binder document with the Unbind Office Binders Utility.

Well, at least it works as well as every other utility I've tried for asset and/or software tracking under Windows. To think that my boss is on my case because our asset tracking is never quite accurate.

Re:What self-audit software?

[Reziac]

Um... and what installed files and registry changes will I discover Belarc Advisor has created on my system?

Re:What self-audit software?

[smyle]

Ummm... not completely free. Not even completely gratis.

On the page you cite, it says

The license associated with this product allows for free personal use only. Use on multiple PCs in a corporate, educational, military or government installation is prohibited. See the license agreement for details.

Kinda makes it not-worth-it in a business setting, huh?

From the BSA's site, they have GASP for free download (Windows and Macintosh only, of course).

After looking that up, why do I feel like I need to take a shower?

Re:What self-audit software?

[smyle]

Hate to follow-up on my own post, but I just looked, and this tool isn't free for all, either. It is limited to 100 systems and 60 days.

Happened in Romania too

[philipx]

The BSA occasionally flexes their muscles in Romania too. Of course, they're mainly pushed by Microsoft as it is their biggest contributor.
Software piracy rate in Romania is a like 80% or so. So, naturally, their main target are students (i.e. "pirates") selling 5-10 disc copies and other companies nobody really ever heard of.
Every once in a while they start raiding, give some fines and take some poor bastards and make them give tearful statements like: "I'm sorry I've used pirate software, I'll never do it again".
I rarely heard them picking on software companies - their main target are accounting and the such.
I wish they'd pick more on software companies. Why ? Well, I worked for a number of small companies, 50 employees top, and the policy was : buy a copy of SoftwareX and everybody installs it. I don't think it's fair, but due to economic conditions in Romania everybody does it (would you expect somebody to pay $180 for a copy of MSWindows when the average income per month is $100-150 ?! same goes for companies).
I really think that if software companies would be raided, they'd switch to Open Source. One of the biggest "problems" with Open Source - support wouldn't be such an issues since pretty much everybody in a software company is a programmer :-).
Yes it can happen. At a previous company I worked for, BSA send some announcements (i.e. threats). As we had few licenses of W2K Server (and of course everybody had W2K Server installed), we kept the W2KS only on few computer (web-servers for ASP development) while most of us programmers installed Linux...

My point is that maybe BSA is, in a strange and twisted way, a temporary yet convenient ally of the free world. Probably until they realize bloatware is loosing terrain...

Re:Fuck you, slashdot. & Fuck you to

[Anonymous Coward]

...Presidents are bought...

Fortunately, we have pretzels to teach this guy some humility ;-)

French BSA

[mirko]

In France, the BSA had no legal presence (though they usually "spammed" people with their piracy-detection floppies and other funny letters.).
That's why an influent French Editor created an alternative organization : the Bidouilleurs Sans Argent which promotes the Free and/or free software.

LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

hahaha, how knotty

I'm a software developer

[Anonymous Coward]

I write games. There are ROMs of my old games on the net. I don't care. I've already been paid. Perhaps they will create interest in a sequel. If the sites hosting them have glowing reviews and name the developers it boosts my ego. The company that published the games very likely *does* care, because it will want to release those games again, on new hardware (especially Game Boy Advance). Sheesh, the copyright holders have rereleased Pong and Gridrunner and Super Mario Bros 2 recently! Look at how many cover songs there are out there (and how song-writers are raking it in from back catalog, unlike games developers).

Re:I'm a software developer

[hyphz]

Actually, Gridrunner is already publically released. The author (Jeff Minter) has all his ROMs available for download on his own homepage and allows them to be used freely.

The Blitz Basic release of Gridrunner is still (I think) licensed by Llamasoft, but if you want the original version you can just get it straight from Yak.

Theoretical method

[bildstorm]

Looking at the postings, I believe it's very simple.

Did you ever buy a system with Windows on it? Have you ever registered Windows or any software product from any company within the BSA?

Ok, now you're on their main list, but that's not the reason they contact you.... Continue on.

Has more than one new version of the software come out since the last time you registered? Has the last version you registered gone onto a non-supported software list?

If so, I believe now you'll be contacted. So, if you buy systems for business that come with Windows as an OEM and it's registered that you bought it, chances are, even as a Linux user, later on you'll get contacted asking why you haven't paid the licence fees for a new version.

I'll tell you one thing, though. For 99% of the people out there, this is invasion of privacy.

Simple response - don't EVER buy a software licence. Buy software that becomes yours, or pay for the distribution of software under a free licence.

Re:Theoretical method

[Miragejp]

Actually, the real simple answer is to only pay cash when you buy software and don't send in the registration cards.

Re:Theoretical method

[bildstorm]

I just move every 8 to 12 months.

That more/less guarantees that they don't send me any cards, updates, announcements, etc.

Thank You BSA!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometimes we need war to understand peace, sometimes it's hunger that makes us appreciate a bread loaf, and sometimes it's dictatorship that makes us fight for freedom.

Thank you BSA for giving us another brick to build the final Open Source victory.

Yes, they are thieving scum.

[Moderation abuser]

I know of at least two small game developing companies who went bust after producing some very popular games.

Everyone had the games. They weren't even very expensive, just a couple of quid but 9 out of 10 copies were pirated.

This is what is driving my company to use OS

[Ice Tiger]

Recently the management in the company I work for has started to talk about using Open Source software a lot more. Not because it is "better" but because it makes the bottom line look good.

I suppose the fact that the "bottom up" approach of getting OS software in has something to do with it as well. One of the few projects that went in on time and on budget used java and OS instead of MS languages and tools, the fight we had to get the go ahead for not using MS tools was unreal.

Now I have management high up wanting to move our web based systems to OS, also we want to run Linux on our mainframe. Strangely enough we now have the capacity since fronting the former proprietory middleware with an OS based XMLRPC system. :)

It's slowly changing from fighting to use OS into becomming a no brainer for the higher ups. Especially as a lot of recent licencing changes have stung our bottom line.

Re:This is what is driving my company to use OS

[poot_rootbeer]

Funny, I would have thought ANY project would have to use Operating System software...

I repeat my earlier advice: wipe your ass with it

[flacco]

As I recommended in an earlier article on this same topic - if you receive a notice like this:

1. Wipe your ass with the letter.
2. Seal it in an air-tight plastic bag.
3. Mail it back to the BSA.

If it makes you feel better, mark out any text on the letter that identifies you individually.

For extra credit, do the same with a photocopy and send to MS. (helpful hint: photocopy BEFORE wiping your ass.)

It might send a message to the BSA. At the very least it will cripple their operations by making it impossible to hire mailroom staff.

700,000 thieves?

[jotaeleemeese]

Are you saying that the BSA has any evidence that all these people are pirating software?

DO you know what it would cost to keep a bureaucracy that could keep accurate track of this?

It all smells extremely fishy. If they have evidence they don't need to ask for compliance, they should go to the courts directly (it is like if I am robed and I give thet thief a chance to bring back my things. Hell no, the most basic common sense says you go to the police.Period).

Or is that the BSA has no evidence at all and knows it would lost all cases if they were to sue?

Re:700,000 thieves?

[Archanagor]

it is like if I am robed and I give thet thief a chance to bring back my things. Hell no, the most basic common sense says you go to the police.Period

Or, you could send out a mass-mailing to all residents you think might have taken your stuff, threatening legal action, and Federal Marshall "goons" if they don't "audit" their homes.

But, then, busting down peoples doors at random on a speculation that they might have done something is cosidered breaking and entering, whether or not they actually stole anything.

Argh. I dislike BSA. They sent one of these lovenotes to my dad (who, suprise! owns a business). He thoughtfully put it into the circular file. Since he rightfully owns all the software he uses, he figured it was total BS. And rightfully so!

Where in the US constitution does it say, "Innocent until proven guilty, unless the accuser is a large, greedy corporation?"

It's all about greed. Software does not need to cost $500-700 a pop. Maybe $70 for the really really good professional grade stuff. But MS Office? Hell NO! They should be selling it for a reasonable, and very profitable $50 a piece. Windows, because it's an operating system and as widespreas as the plague should be $15 a piece, maybe $50 for the server version.

It's better to overcharge, then intimidate, than it is to ask a reasonable amount for the software you produce.

Crap like this article just rubs me the wrong way. I obey the law, respect licenses, and really don't appreciate being accused of a crime I didn't commit!

Hey..

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't Chad Codemaster look like Wil Wheaton?

Saginaw, Michigan

[rongage]

I can't tell you how relieved I was to see that the BSA aren't targeting the town I live in (Saginaw, Michigan). With all the pirated software that I must have on my computer, I would surely owe them something. Heck, even my office suite is pirated. My desktop environment is pirated. Let them come on by and audit me...

Re:Saginaw, Michigan

[zaren]

They came through Michigan last time around. I live in Ypsilanti, MI, having moved from Saginaw a few years ago. I ran a small computer repair business out of my house while I was up there, but closed shop when we moved. I was thinking of starting it up again after we got settled, so I re-subscribed to the freebie geek trade journals under my business name with my current correct address.

Two years later, I get a notice from the BSA that my business is part of their latest sweep. Mind you, I didn't do a lick of business since hitting Ypsi, so it's not like they had a business to target, just a private citizen in his own home. It seems as though they snarfed my name from one of those trade rag mailing lists.

I fretted for a while about what would happen if some "representative" of these guys showed up at our door when I was at my real job, let my wife know that they weren't allowed in the door without a warrant, and all that. Nothing ever came of it. I figured (after seeing the follow-up letter) that this was all just a front for MS so that they could make sure they were getting all of their money that was coming to them.

Now, I have no problems with a company wanting to make sure that folks that use their software actually PAY for it; stealing from a thief doesn't make the theft any less of a crime than stealing from a cop. If a member of the BSA wants to use their services to enforce their policies, more power to them, that's why they signed up. But the way they did it was quite ridiculous and heavyhanded; FUD is no way to win friends and influence people - at least, not to influence them in your favor.

Since I had nothing to fear from these goons - I'm a Mac user, so don't have any commercial Microsoft software, and all of the other companies that were on the list either had software I didn't need, or actually had my money for a legit version of their software - I didn't see the point in participating with this little charade. I just took their little "notice" postcard, scrawled some snide comment on it telling them off, and returned it to sender, mail refused. That was the last I heard from them.

About counter ads

[thogard]

Someone like Red Hat need to run an ad in the business section of each towns local news paper with a copy of the threating letter and let people know there is a better way...

They are fools if they don't use MS marketing when they can.

Re:About counter ads

[redGiraffe]

I completely agree.

We (the developers) have been pushing linux for a year now and use linux for our desktops/servers (java/mobile/web stuff). The rest looked down their noses at us, then along comes mircosoft with audits and gee, all of a sudden the md has redhat on his laptop! He does complain about document formatting, but its not a big deal, people seem to be moving to .pdf documents, be interested to see a survey..

If the distributers of linux don't takes advantage of this opertunity RIGHT NOW, it would be business suicide, because, ah, commercial OS manufacturers are going to spread a LOT of FUD to keep the market in check (watch this space).

Re:This is precisely what I have been talking abou

[trkball]

BSA worldwide members include Adobe, Apple, Autodesk, Bentley Systems, CNC Software/Mastercam, FileMaker, Macromedia, Microsoft, Symantec, and Unigraphics Solutions

Ahh, this makes it very easy to know which companies I shouldn't buy software from. I can't imagine there is much that these companies offer that can't be done (probably better) with open source software anyway.

Works For Me

[Greyfox]

I'd love to help people ensure compliance by installing Linux and Linux apps across the board. In the long run it'd cost less money for those businesses to do that. Probably in the short run too.

Attention: karma whores

[Boiling_point_]

50 comments already at +2 and nobody's posted a copy of the actual note. Did they mention a penalty for reproducing that, too??

(for comparison, here's six months ago's effort)

Re:Fuck you, slashdot. & Fuck you to

[volkris]

Yeah, where were the pretzels to choke Clinton? Too bad they were a couple years off from hitting the REAL crook.

Re:I repeat my earlier advice: wipe your ass with

[snake_dad]

I'm pretty sure that sending biological hazards through mail is illegal these days... Well, at least it won't dry up to white powder.

Re:Tone excuses illegal copying [OT]

[glamslam]

Is there a Linux marketing initiative?

A web site that allow users to donate money to marketing initiatives would be cool.

I could envision a system to allow people to donate towards something they wanted to see happen... such as a targeted USPS mass-mailing of open source advertisements. Or, you could donate to the distribution of Linux CDs to high schools, etc... (it would never work because no one would agree on the distribution ;)

Few dollars worth of binary digits....

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead we have endless bickering over a few dollars worth of binary digits that somehow do something that is expected to be traded for money or something else of value

This may not seem like a big deal to you, but to the people who pour countless amounts of time and energy into writing, testing, and distributing software, those "few dollars worth of binary digits" represent their livelyhood. While it isnt exactly right to send letters to 700,000 people, and though i am in no way endorsing what the BSA is trying to pull, you have to realize that these people (yes, even microsoft) have families to feed. Now you may feel like a anti-corporate crusader or whatever for downloading Win2k Server off Gnutella, but still, you are depriving somebody of just compensation for all their hard work. This is called stealing. People who steal go to jail, why should software theft be treated any differently?

***hunkers down, awaits flames***

Re:Few dollars worth of binary digits....

[fedos]

Now you may feel like a anti-corporate crusader or whatever for downloading Win2k Server off Gnutella, but still, you are depriving somebody of just compensation for all their hard work.

The people who did the actual hard work for creating Win2K server (to use your example) have already gotten paid all they're gonna get for it. Thus, if I do download it from Gnutella, I'm not hurting the people who are at risk of starving.

Business Software Alliance "Sponsoring" ATC

[Anonymous Coward]

Just for a little bit of irony, the first ad I heard in the latest round was a sponsorship announcement on the local NPR station. Funny thing was, it ran right after a story about a car parts store in Moscow no longer being extorted by gansters. Problem was, they now had to deal with the local police taking whatever part they needed in exchange for keeping the crooks away.

Those wacky numbers? $800K a month growth?

[Anonymous Coward]

In one article:
"According to a 2000 study, the U.S. software industry lost more than $2.6 billion to software piracy in 2000. * This loss has a significant impact on the U.S. economy. It is estimated that software piracy cost the U.S. economy over 109,000 jobs, $4.5 billion in lost wages and almost $1 billion in tax revenue. ** "

In another press release the numbers are:
According to a 2000 study, the U.S. software industry lost more than $2.6 billion to software piracy in 2000. ** This loss has a significant impact on the U.S. economy. It is estimated that software piracy cost the U.S. economy more than 107,000 jobs, $5.3 billion in lost wages and almost $1.8 billion in tax revenue.

These releases are dated one month apart! Yeah, they pull the numbers out of their *ss to make it sound scary.

What????

[leereyno]

TV licensing? What the $%#@#$?

Re:What????

[Alan Partridge]

It sounds appalling, I know - but it works out just beautifully. Basically, UK residents who own a TV are required to pay a yearly fee of £100 (ish maybe $160?) which pays for the BBC, which in turn carries no advertisements. This gets you BBC1, BBC2, BBC Choice, BBC News 24, BBC Knowledge (TV Channels) National Radios 1-5 plus local radio and TV. BBCi, which includes all BBC information services including BBC webstes but excluding beeb.com. The World Service is paid for by general taxation as it is considered an instrument of British foreign policy. It's really an excellent system.

Re:What????

[Anonymous Coward]

When you buy a TV in the UK the shop also tries to find out your name & address so you can be put on the register. In fact I think (although I'm not sure) that they will refuse to sell you one if you don't give your name & address.
We also have TV licensing here in Ireland, but we still get adverts. Bum deal... but at least the Big Brother mentality doesn't pervade as far as the point of sale.

Re:What????

[Jeremy Erwin]

It's £109 for colour, £36.50 for black and white, per year. The fine for unlicensed use is £1000. I'm not sure if this is per TV, as well. More information on this quaint British custom may be found at http://www.tv-l.co.uk.

Re:What????

[cesspool]

that doesnt sound appaling at all, i wish that the canadian government had the foresight to set up something like that here

that solution seems better than 20 minutes of "content" and 10 minutes of ads that we have now

the Canadian Broadcast Corp. (our version of BBC) wouldnt be terminally on the edge of closing their doors due to funding issues

plus, it's opt-out, dont own a tv? dont pay.
there is no opt-out when it comes to advertising on virtually any other medium

cesss

Re:What????

[ThePilgrim]

The real nice thing about this is the BBC has to justify it's self to *US* the licence payers and not to it's share holders.

This gives us sutch gems as the Perfect Day video

Re:What????

[Anonymous Coward]

For those unfamiliar with the british system, we pay around £100 per household, in return for good-quality television (The BBC)

And surprisingly, it does seem to work. Although we pay even if we use the TV watching commercial channels (few do, see the Quality argument above) the BBC makes some great programs, advertising-free, and independant.

Of course, if you think this is unfair, you could just watch cable TV. 5-minute advertising breaks with 6 minutes of TV in-between, anyone?

Re:What????

[blowdart]

In the UK you have to give an address, you're correct.

This is added to a central database, and every so often cross referenced against other databases, like the voting registry. This then produces a list of houses which don't have a license, which are then mailshotted.

Re:What????

[matrix29]

TV licensing? What the $%#@#$?

Even better, the television program seasons last 6 episodes. So a great show like Red Dwarf which has lasted many seasons only has the minimal quantity of episodes of one season of American television.

The upside is a bigger budget to devote to the sets and polishing the comedy writing to a shine. The downside is very few series seem to reach the standard which the dreadfully short seasons require in quality and skill.

Though they may get a better Monty Python or Faulty Towers or Doctor Who they get a very limited number of episodes. On the other upside here is that really rotten programs do not survive long (though there are god-awful exceptions too). Finally as the Monty Python crew reminds us... "BBC Programmers have an intellectual capacity much less broad than the average penguin."

Re:What????

[Boronx]

Why dont you guys just have a T.V. tax on t.v., V C R, DVD player purchases?

Re:What????

[jnew]

Here in Australia we don't have a licence, but some of our tax does to our equivalent, the ABC. It's often quoted as costing us 8c a day. That gets national TV,and multiple radio stations. No ads, fantastic programs, and is also an excellent system.

Re:What????

[Alan Partridge]

funny, I always hate it when the BBC spends a million quid on advertising itself to people who have to pay for it anyway. I love the BBC, but I really hate it when they waste money that could be better spent on Adam Hart-Davis. :-]

Re:What????

[netsharc]

It's not exactly a British custom, the same thing, called the GEZ, also exists in Germany. Of course, they use the same tactics and fear mongering like the BSA and the British folks do.

Re:I repeat my earlier advice: wipe your ass with

[flacco]

I'm pretty sure that sending biological hazards through mail is illegal these days...

Can doctors' offices send stool samples to labs through the mail?

Duh...it's Truce with a new name

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember the Truce program last summer?

It's a sales pitch, nothing more...check the e-week link above to refesh your memory...

Hypocrites

[pubjames]

One of the things that angers me about this is that the software companies are such hypocrites. Most of them deliberately don't do very much to make it difficult to copy software, because they know that preventing all copying would be disadvantageous for them, and yet the accuse many otherwise perfectly law-abiding companies and organisations of the serious crime of theft. If I leave my front-door open I deserve to get robbed.

There are lots of techniques that they could use which would make it impossible (for Joe User at least) to install software on multiple machines, for instance by providing a floppy or USB dongle with the installation CDs which must be inserted the first time the software is installed and which won't let the user install again. They don't do this because they don't want it to be difficult to copy their software. So, by my way of thinking, to an extent they deserve the copying that occurs.

Re:Hypocrites

[SuiteSisterMary]

Or, say, providing a 'product activation' service that checks the hardware it's being installed on, then checks the hardware that it's next installed on?

Re:Hypocrites

[No Such Agency]

If I leave my front-door open I deserve to get robbed.

Actually you don't. You just have to expect that you'll get robbed. Nobody "deserves" to be a victim of crime, even Microsoft. What Microsoft "deserves" is legislation punishing them for their unethical and monopolistic business practices. Many large software companies probably *do* deliberately make their products copyable, because it broadens market base. Microsoft doesn't need to do this because they can bully system retailers into bundling Windows and thus essentially "force sales" on people who might not want to run windows on that new box, or who might get a pirate copy. Their market base is ensured by their near-monopoly. This is why you get Windows XP-like registration bulls*it.

Also, nobody in their right mind is going to include a "dongle" with software. Users hate them, they cost money to manufacture, and they generally cause your company name to be prefixed with "stupid f*cking" in a lot of conversations between potential customers.

I thought...

[Associate]

I thought Congress passed the anti-terrorism act.

Monopolies Don't Need Customer Service

[DG]

You're quite right that a BSA "audit" causes nothing but fear and resentment.

Who else does audits? The IRS. And when was the last time you heard anyone preaching their love of the IRS?

But with the IRS, you have no choice. You must pay your taxes, and they'll do what they have to get them, public relations be dammed.

Monopolies don't have to worry about customer service. Where else are you going to go?

Now hand over the money, slave.

DG

A fix: Rent your software :(

[Anonymous Coward]

For those who think this will push people into open source alternatives, don't be so sure. At least with my employer, it moved us right where Microsoft wants.

The time required to keep track of how many licenses of each version of microsoft products we had was killing us. Who had the right to upgrade, who need to buy full versions, who didn't, who slipped through the cracks?

So we took the easy way out and signed up for Microsoft's Campus Agreement where we just pay a single annual rate based on number of full-time equivalent employees and then have unlimited copy and upgrade rights.

For those (these days) rare cases of non-Microsoft software, keeping track of them is a lot simpler because they are so few and far between. For example, Pagemaker? Only a few copies. And you know what, now there is dis-incentive to buy more or upgrade Pagemaker since we get Publisher as part of this bundle.

So each year we cut a VERY FAT check to a Microsoft VAR and in return, no auditing hassles.

Now, understand we sold our souls to them. If we decide one year not to pay the fee, all of our microsoft licensed products under the agreement cease to be, including OS products. So you can bet your storm-trooping asses that would result in an immediate audit to ensure no microsoft stuff is on any of the thousands of PCs we own.

Microsoft isn't stupid you know... Stop under-estimating them... The only stupid ones are the non-Microsoft BSA members who think this is going to help them out....

I agree!!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

'nuf said.

I don't understand Slashdot opinions

[elliotj]

I'm again amazed by the comments I read on this site. Perhaps someone could explain the contradiction.

On the one hand people here are great advocates of open source software. Any casual reader will quickly learn the financial and convenience benefits of running programs released under the GPL and such. So one might be left with a feeling that Slashdotters care about things like software licenses and the legal use of software.

On the other hand, everyone gets annoyed when companies who choose not to open source their software try to enforce their commercial license requirements. Why is this wrong? Why does this make them worthy of derision?

Slashdotters seem to be selectively law-abiding. There are complaints about the RIAA's struggle against music piracy, and yet an outcry results whenever anyone violates the GPL.

Frankly I think this is all economics. When the boom was in full swing you could IPO a Linux distro without a business plan and become a millionaire over night. That was great. The suckers in the market were paying you because they didn't understand your product. At the same time big companies didn't care so much about piracy b/c the market was keeping valuations high and profits were rolling in. Now financial times are tougher and those same corporations are trying to get the revenues that are rightfully theirs. I've got to have some respect for that.

Re:I don't understand Slashdot opinions

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose it would help if you considered that there are thousands of people here, most of whom are immature and/or teenage nerds.

The surest way to get one of these letters...

[MSUWalt]

We received one of these letters shortly after some Microsoft vendor reps came by for a "demonstration." Never, ever, ever, ever trust anyone that has anything to do with Microsoft. I work for a Catholic hospital (nonprofit). These guys don't care if you work for the Pope or not.

Re:The surest way to get one of these letters...

[Anonymous Coward]

So you work for one of the oldest cults out there.

That's actually a great idea

[ch-chuck]

Don't know why it's 'funny' - RH probably doesn't have anywhere near the marketing budget of the dominant players but they could whip up some full page ads pointing out you don't have to play the Msft licensing / vendor lock in / upgrade treadmill game just to run a modern business office.

Interesting Business Model

[Anonymous Coward]

This certainly strikes me as a pretty good business model. I wonder how much of a cut of the "penalties" the BSA gets. It reminds me of some Mario Puzo novels I read about trash collectors. Essentially the same business model...

"You don't wanna be signed up with Guido's Trash Co.? That's all right. But if I was you, I would want to insure my trash...it's about the same price as signing up even. I tell you what, I'll give you 2 weeks to think about it. OK?"

Bozeman??

[ch-chuck]

Yipper, pirate central of Montana fer sure!

"Theft" of software?

[lars_stefan_axelsson]

Theft is when you illegally deprive someone of something that is rightfully theirs. Software piracy deprives the retailer, distributor and manufacturers of the software you stole of some revenue.

Logically that argument holds water only if you were going to provide them with that revenue had you not violated their copyright in the first place. Hence if I illegaly copy a program that I wouldn't otherwise have bought, then I have not deprived the retailer of any revenue or potiential revenue.

Now this has little to do with theft as such. Dictionary.com gives the following definition of Larceny:

The unlawful taking and removing of another's personal property with the intent of permanently depriving the owner; theft.

Now the property you're refering to here is money. The copying of the software is clearly not 'stealing' in the sense above, since you do not deprive the owner of his software, he still has his copy. However, you're clearly not stealing his money either, since he still has his software to sell. What you may or may not have done is deprive him of possible future earnings, and that's a different crime entirely. It's called copyright violation in most of the world, and is still a crime.

Why is this important? Well, words and their intended meanings are the only means of communication we have, and going around calling copyright violation 'stealing' is akin to calling "driving while under the influence," "possession of narcotics with the intent to sell", or calling "murder", "tax evasion."

Such usage can only serve to dilute the commonly understood meaning of the words we use to communicate, and those who do so intentionally, in order to further their own agenda, deserve nothing but contempt.

Stealing software is when you grab a copy of Windows from the shelfs of CompUSA and exit without paying for it. Copying the same software off a server somewhere is a different crime entirely.

Now I know Why

[Anonymous Coward]

my company asked me yesterday if all the software in the remote office is legit..... Guess the Bay area office got the "postcard".

Looking for a particuliar post

[Anonymous Coward]

A while back (a few months? a few years? I can't remember), somebody posted the story of a BSA raid in a neighbooring business. The poster was friend with a sysadmin at that business; they where located in the same industrial park. It was a engineering R&D business that had a lot of Unix box and a mainframe. IIRC, the business was designing explosive detection system; they had small sample of radioactive material onsite wich complicated the raid. The BSA made a mess of their operation for a few months and the business sued the BSA with very little luck. The account was quite long and detailed. I am looking for that post and the search function was unhelpful. If you know wich post I am talking about, please post a link. It was an interesting read and I want to show that to a few friend. Thanks if you can help.

Stupid tracking number

[truesaer]

A few months back I received 4 of these cards in the mail telling me that my business could comply within X days without penalty, blah blah blah.

Only problem: I have no business, I'm a random college student. So, to summarize, they sent sent three duplicates of the nasty-gram, and to someone who isn't a business owner. I wouldn't worry about them being on to you if you get one of these...

Re:Stupid tracking number

[dman123]

Tracking numbers scare me. I hope no one gives me a tracking number or else I'm in for it.

Re:I repeat my earlier advice: wipe your ass with

[acceleriter]

Yup. But when doctors' offices send stool and urine samples to labs, it's not unsolicited, and thus not assault.

Questions for attourneys out there

[wowbagger]

BSA sends me "the letter"
My response is the shortest English sentance, consisting of a verb (vulgar) and a direct object.
The show up with federal marshals and a warrent.

Question: cannot I counter-subpoena, requesting the name of the individual(s) that asserted I have pirated software, for the purposes of filing a "defamation of character" or "bearing false witness" suit?

If I do so, and they refuse, what then?
If they say "sorry, anonymous tip", can I then hold them accountable?
How can they get a warrent in a situation like that?

Can I bill them for time lost?

This all assumes that I am dead legal in all things - presume I am 100% Free Software.

Re:Questions for attourneys out there

[Anonymous Coward]

Just do the same thing to them. Make MS hire an auditor at their expense, whose job is to prove that none of MS's thousands of computers is running an unlicensed copy of your software.

Re:Questions for attourneys out there

[scrytch]

Question: cannot I counter-subpoena, requesting the name of the individual(s) that asserted I have pirated software, for the purposes of filing a "defamation of character" or "bearing false witness" suit?

You can try. They will counter by claiming various confidentiality contracts, claim the tip was anonymous, claim they didn't need the tip, then change the venue to 3 am in a disused lavatory in Kandahar with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard". In short, they will make sure you pay tens of thousands of clams in legal bills. Then they'll drop their investigation of you and ask for summary dismissal of your complaints because of that, you get to file your own brand new complaint, lather, rinse, repeat, and spend spend spend.

Easy Reading

[mnordstr]

Here is the message for you who don't bother to read:

The BSA Message

Re:Easy Reading

[juan2074]

That has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever seen.

Thankfully, I did not finish watching that crap.

Cut them out the loop

[mip]

Ok. These guys are are motivated purely by greed; their primary motivation isn't to sell a useful and thoughtful product because "hey, this piece of software might really benefit the customer", they do it to make money. If the product also happens to be in some way useful, fine, nice side-effect. Free-software on the other hand is not a high income business, thus there is little revenue to pour back into marketing, the keenest tool in the proprietary producers bag of tricks. Products are sold not on the amount of spin churned out by the marketing and sales departments or the total number of man hours of advertising, but rather on word of mouth of the usefulness of the product - the level of benefit that the product returns. Therefore, the free-software producer has no choice but to develop a good product, s/he does not have the resources to shine up the shite, to make that that isn't gold glitter.

Large corporations, and I apply this to all, be they software producers or makers of automobiles, sell the marketing devices, the glistening sounds of a thousand adverts, TV plugs by some favourite celebrity (who function in much the same way) or the latest buzzword that they have implemented as a feature.

To this end people should stop and think beforebuying from a large corporation. Those of less knowledge, for which they should not be faulted (it is hard to hear a few voices speaking sensibly through a multitude babbling incoherently), should be encouraged, by those who do have the knowledge of FS, to at least try the alternatives. If they do not like it, fair enough, but if they do they will have rid themselves of ties to a system built on gossamer ideals and joined a community that believes in support for products that have depth and produce benefits that far outweigh their costs.

Finally, though these products cost nothing to 'buy', if the user finds they are beneficial, it seems only fair to reciprocate and give something back. Whether its a small donation of money or a random hardware part, help with coding a project or a writing the docs, or even just a plain ol' thanks, each and every return pushes the community forward.

~D

fsf-europe

debian uk

MS Inventory Analyzer

[theblackdeer]

you mean the microsoft software inventory analyzer? yeah, my company just finished with it. we ran it three times over the course of two weeks to get a good read on what products we have. it doesn't *appear* to be spyware, and it makes lists of what you got in HTML, .doc, or .xls formats. the software gets classified two ways; one, by product name (ex: Microsoft Office 2000 Pro), and by file location/name (ex: msoffice.exe, winword.exe, excel.exe, etc.).

the bottom line is that if your company really has been fudging some of the licensing numbers (like mine has), probably out of laziness, this software does work pretty fast, no bugs that we could see. 'course, it would figure that the only bug-free MS program we now own is the audit software. nothing like a good ROI, you know?

Re:MS Inventory Analyzer

[Anonymous Coward]

(man, my first post, and I'm posting as Anonymous Coward since I didn't think about my nick when I created my account)

Anyway, this sounds suspiciously like what they're doing at my company. Only they've integrated the audit into our login scripts. And they called the script that calls the auditing script "appinstaller" and it has echo off. A bit misleading, don't you think? Maybe they're hoping to catch some people with illegal software so they can fire them. Then again, maybe all they want to do is just see what we all have on our computers.

On a side note, those BSA commercials are pretty darn funny. They make it seem like the BSA is the beacon of light and justice in a world filled with evil people who use unlicensed software. They crack me up every time. At least now I know who these people are.

Go fill out the form

[rzbx]

Go to bsagrace.com and fill out there form for reporting piracy. I did; I put in Microsoft.

Against Intellectual Property
http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/95ps a. html

Re:This is precisely what I have been talking abou

[Enigma2175]

do expect similar organizations to crop up defending the interests of digital text publishers, media broadcasters, etc.-- extend, oozing, slimy and cold,

Oh, you mean like the RIAA or the MPAA? They already exist, and I believe both these organizations will turn to BSA-style tactics in the future.

it wouldnt be so bad if

[Cubejockey]

this was actually about getting people licenced so that they are not breaking any copyright laws.. unfortunatly microsoft and BS-A are using this as a way of scaring people into the new licencing schemes the've come up with.

I wonder if the cost of auditing...

[freeBill]

...is included in the latest "total cost of ownership" study Microsoft has purchased to show that Linux is really more expensive than overpriced bloatware.

The horse is calling the kettle black...

[rats6ane]

Does anyone else see the irony in this? The BSA is running FreeBSD, Apache, MySQL, and PHP. Perhaps they were afraid someone might report them to themselves and they might audit themselves by mistake? http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?mode_u=off&mo de_w=on&site=www.bsa.org&submit=Examine

I am.

[Anonymous Coward]

My new company is running everything on Linux. The only license I will end up purchasing is for Oracle 9i Standard database. If these motherfuckers try to screw with my shit they'd better realize i'm in a redneck state and have lots of guns.

Re:I repeat my earlier advice: wipe your ass with

[Pig Hogger]

For extra-effect, sprinkle white powder inside the enveloppe...

Before You Go Defending the BSA...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm as opposed to software theft as the next person. Probably more so, being as I am (or was, anyway) a software developer myself.

But before you go defending the BSA's actions, particularly with respect to enforcing Microsoft's "rights," maybe you best take a look at Overseas Invasion. It's an old article (1997 or 1998, I think), but one is inclined to wonder if this is still going on. (Never mind that it shouldn't have been happening in the first place!)

I once thought the BSA was a Good Thing. But after reading that article many years ago, the BSA forever lost any credibility in my eyes!

FWIW.

money money money

[Cubejockey]

thats all they want, the BSA is not investigating and finding pirates... they are just sending out these letters to scare people to buy extra licences.... I recieved one of those letters for my 1 person "business"(running just to get free eWeek), they get names off of mailing lists to spread fear in the hearts of office managers everywhere

Re:money money money

[GoRK]

So propose an alternative way to fix the piracy problem. If you are pirating software, then you should be scared when you get one of these letters. Their aim is not to get companies or people to buy "extra" licenses, but to buy the licenses they should have bought in the first place.

You seem to imply that there are businesses that are totally legal on all of their software that recieve one of these letters, freak out, and buy 10 licenses for Windows XP and Office XP they don't need.

Imagine that...

[--daz--]

Businesses getting upset that other businesses are stealing from them! How horrible the BSA is!

Would you guys listen to yourselves? You make it seem like the BSA are nazis. Are the police geshtapo for raiding a car theft ring?

Keep in mind, these companies are using copyrighted software without having paid for it. Whether or not you think copyrights are good or bad, the fact remains, that software is a product and these businesses have stolen many millions of dollars worth of this product.

Yes, yes, I know, it's another argument for free software, but until free software takes off, you still have to pay for software.

Since the police seem uninterested in investigating software theft, what other alternative do these software companies have to prevent theft?

The software industry is like the old west. There's not enough law enforcement to prevent bank robberies or gold theft, so the businesses have to take matters into their own hands.

Boosting 1Q revenue in a soft economy

[swb]

That's what this is all about. You'll notice they never send these cards out in October or May or other times of the year. It strikes me as purely a gambit to get dollars in the first quarter when many businesses (especially in this economy) are really holding back on capital spending until later in the year.

By sending these cards out they'll get extra revenue they might not have gotten. It's just like the middle ages -- when the king's coffers were low, he sent his soldiers to the villages to collect extra tax.

So how much did you pay for that jdk?

[Anonymous Coward]

Moron. Another idiot that gets free stuff but gives nothing back.

I have no problem with nailing criminals...

[S1mon_Jester]

but are you nailing criminals with these actions?

The key words here are wrongful use. Is it wrong, when someone has stolen something from you, to offer them a conditional amnesty? You steal from me, and not some hypothetic company, and I'll do everything I can to see you put in jail.

Cough. What delightful spin. Did you prove that they stole something from you? No, you are forcing them to prove that they rightfully purchased the product. IE: you are assuming that they are guilty. That's the problem. Say you're a small business. You don't keep all the paperwork, but you have purchased the licenses for every piece of software. Say you cut loose some jackass that wouldn't work. Now he decided to get back at you by calling the BSA hotline and making stuff up. The BSA comes knocking on the door. You haven't done anything wrong, but, since you can't prove you paid for the license, guess what, you get to pay again. (And I won't even mention Microsoft's latest twist - that OEM licenses that you paid for are invalidated if you have more than 500 employees). Cough. It's not really extortion...honest.

Re:The BSA threatened me (or rather, "Stumpy McGee

[Anonymous Coward]

What exactly does the spyware do on your system?

Why, it installs the MAGIC LANTERN, of course!!!!

Enforcement SOP

[virg_mattes]

The usual method for inspecting your stuff goes something like this. They send the letter, and you refuse/ignore the audit. They open a lawsuit charging you with copyright infringement, often based on evidence that's either sketchy or "from an anonymous tip." In the course of the lawsuit, the judge assigned issues a subpoena (or warrant, based on certain legal concerns) for your company's software records. If you don't pony them up, you face contempt and other possible criminal charges. If you do, then their lawyers examine your stuff and your records, and if something doesn't ken, you get fined. Since this whole process can get prohibitively expensive quickly, most companies will perform the audit and buy licenses to get compliant, which is the real reason behind the letters.

BTW, federal marshals are basically the "U.S. police force", as opposed to state police or local police. They're usually attached to the FBI office in the area in which they work.

Virg

Re:Enforcement SOP

[BlueUnderwear]

If you do, then their lawyers examine your stuff and your records, and if something doesn't ken, you get fined. Since this whole process can get prohibitively expensive quickly, most companies will perform the audit and buy licenses to get compliant, which is the real reason behind the letters.

And in case you're wondering: the main source of cost of this process is not actually the cost of additional licenses that you might need to purchase. No, it's the indirect cost to your business caused by being deprived of your working tools (PCs) and records (data stored on those PCs), and by the disruption caused by the presence of outside "investigators" on your premises. Which means that even businesses which are ok as far as licenses are concerned have it in their best interest to comply, rather than to risk having their equipment seized, even if the seizure is only "temporary" and for "evaluation of the evidence". Remember Steve Jackson games? They eventually got their equipment back ... but so late as to make it virtually worthless.

And it is this threat of indirect costs that makes the thing look suspiciously like extortion.

Re:Enforcement SOP

[abolith]

The company I work for got one of those letter about 6 months ago, followed by a phone call. The sys admin laughed it off and hung upon the the BSA guy. I guess they were pissed so they charged the company with not being compliant (even thought they had NO proof) when we went to court our laywer simple gave the judge proof that we use LINUX on our servers and a combo of LINUX/FreeBSD/mac os X on the desktops. judge got pissed at the BSA for wasting his time and not doing any research. I know this is an uncommon example but it was alot of fun to watch the whole thing unfold. After court ended our sys admin just laughed and told the BSA guy thanks for paying our lawyer for us. in the end we walked away without really paying much. it was cheaper but took longer. but to our bean counters the bottomline is all that matters.

Search Warrents?

[Raleel]

Do they get actual search warrents? Can you, say, deny them access to your computers? I don't think that Federal Marshals will bash in a door based on the word of a report via a web form from the BSA...

Next, The RIAA will come to check for mp3's

[coolcast]

What's next? RIAA nocking on my door, armed with federal marshals (I'm not a US citizen) demanding my computer because I shared mp3's through Napster?

...painters nocking on your door to check wether you've got illegally printed posters of artwork hanging on the wall?

..'pr0n busters' checking for illegal pr0n on your HD's?

... BIOS manufacturers to check wether I made illegal copies of my BIOS???

... Hollywood to check for DivX??????????

This is too insane for words.
Just one tip. Hide your central servers somewhere SAFE and SECRET, bury the ethernet cables and play a fool.

Re:Next, The RIAA will come to check for mp3's

[mindstrm]

Could be.. I mean, if you WERE distributing mp3's through napster without a contract from the recording company, you would be doing something illegal, right?

Auditors == Frustrated Ski Bums ???

[Anonymous Coward]

No kidding! I lived in Bozo, MT for 4 years, and was just back for a visit a year ago. AFAIK, there is one software company, a retired Qualcomm founder, and Montana State University; last I knew, total population of the town (including 10,000 students) was 30-35k. Sounds like pretty slim pickings.

I'd *love* to know their selection criteria - maybe some of the auditors are ski fanatics, and they wanted a working vacation ;-)

Microsoft

[Rand Race]

If Microsoft is so worried about rampant piracy, how come they make it so hard to detect multiple copies on the network? Two copies of Photoshop or Xpress with the same serial numbers won't run at the same time on the same LAN, they pop up a message saying "someone else is already using this, tough luck buddy" or some such. But Office does not do this.

I have one storebought copy of Office 2001 (Mac) and bought my 20 liscenses through this fucked up Microsoft liscensing web page. They didn't send me serial numbers, just a contract, so all 21 copies of Office here have the same serial number even though they are all legaly liscensed. Adobe and Quark OTOH gave me a list of serials when I bought my bulk liscenses. So if someone snakes the Office disk and installs it on his laptop and has it on the LAN I get zero warning that I have an unliscensed copy on the LAN. Thanks for making it a bitch Microsoft. Even if I am fully compliant you better bet your ass the BSA is going to have to wade through lawyers to get into my shop... just to make it painfull for them too.

Re:Microsoft

[Karl Cocknozzle]

I have one storebought copy of Office 2001 (Mac) and bought my 20 liscenses through this fucked up Microsoft liscensing web page. They didn't send me serial numbers, just a contract, so all 21 copies of Office here have the same serial number even though they are all legaly liscensed.

According to a guy I spoke with at the Apple store yesterday, Office v.X DOES sniff out other installations using the same serial # if you're connected to the network. Since I only own one Mac I can't really test this myself....

I am interested in how it works though: Does it do a broadcast or something on the network? Anybody have any knowledge of how/if this works?

Point and Counterpoint

[virg_mattes]

Your point is well taken, but that's not where they went wrong. The problem is that the BSA doesn't restrict itself to companies where they have any evidence that piracy is going on, and they're very hardline on cases where the possibility of violation exists even if there's no proof of violation (in a case mentioned above, a user had a copy of WordPerfect installed on a network server, and the BSA enforcement team simply assumed that they were using it illegally because they could not prove that they weren't (in this case, nobody remembered it was there, so they weren't violating the EULA for the product, but they had no way to prove that nobody was using it)). Both of these practices fly in the face of "innocent until proven guilty" and when they use the threat of legal action to force companies to spend a lot of money to prove that they're not doing anything wrong, they step over the ethical line. I agree that they should have the right to enforce their license rights, but their method is overreaching and wrong.

Virg

Re:Point and Counterpoint

[opkool]

Actually, with a Novell Fileserver it is possible and easy to prove who, when and how many times someone accessed a file in the server.

This is true since Novell 3.x as far as I remember. Now, with NDS is much easier.

So I guess that bad Novell admins costed that company a little fortune by means of not knowing the possibilities of their system.

Re:Point and Counterpoint

[esper]

I see no mention of the network server in question running Novell, much less NDS.

Re:Point and Counterpoint

[opkool]

The original post, so it says: They use Netware, and Netware is a product from Novel Inc.:

They also arrange penalties for any discovered "violations". Some of these can quickly get out of hand. For example, in my case, a copy of WordPerfect 5.1 (yes, in 1997!) was lying around on a Netware server which 350 people had access to.

An about NDS, I just said that nowadays, with NDS, it would be easier to get this kind of data. I say nothing of the original poster using NDS.

Please, read twice before posting. Thank you.

Re:Point and Counterpoint

[esper]

Please, read twice before posting.

Yes, please do. You appear to have thought you were responding to a different post than you actually responded to. The original Point and Counterpoint post, which is the parent of the post where you brought up Novell and NDS, does not contain the text you quoted and, just in case I missed it, Netscape's search function confirms that neither "Novell" nor "Netware" appear in that post. Just for fun, I followed the parent links all the way up and found no ancestor of your post which mentioned Novell or any of its products.

Or is this some meaning of "original post" with which I am not familiar?

Re:Point and Counterpoint

[opkool]

Excuse me if you were mistaken.

But I replied to a post "A" and I included information from a previous post "B". This previous post "B" happened to be the origin of the data and comment in post "A".

And I replied to "A" and commenting information from post "B".

This post "B" is what I considere the "original post", because it is the first posts that tells the whole story.

Post B is this one

Post "A" is this one

Is it complicated? Sure. But this is Slashdot.

Have a good one.

Re:Point and Counterpoint

[esper]

Ahhh... Now it makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

extortion and revenge

[geoff lane]

a/ 700,000 cards is NOT a targetted mailing. It's plain spam and you have to wonder if they have a licensed mailing list or just copied the stuff out of a trade directory (most have copyright clauses preventing such use these days) :-)

b/ any company receiving such a card should get the company lawyer to write back pointing out the legal consequences of libel.

c/ I wonder if Microsoft or Adobe could satisfy the BSA audit?

100% Wrong

[Srin Tuar]

No matter how you hype it, it's just not legal for a company to own (or sometimes not) a single copy of Adobe Photoshop or Microsoft Office and run it on 10's or 100's of computers. Somebody has to enforce the law or it breaks down. Incedentally, it's the same copyright law that keeps your GPL software free that they are protecting!

Absolutely wrong. You can download a sigle copy of a GPL program, modify the source, and install it an as many computers as you like. You dont have to give your changes to anyone eles either.

ONLY if you want to distribute the modified code outside of your company, then you have to attach the source & license.

The GPL does not cover USE of the software- only redistribution. You can use the software however you like.

Re:100% Wrong

[GoRK]

I didn't say anything about what the GPL license allows/disallows regarding distribution, use, or anything else. I only said essentially that copyright law protects the freedoms and limitations the GPL grants -- indeed the existence of the GPL itself.

It's still not legal to run office on 100 machines when it violates MS's license, as it is illegal to modify the source for GIMP so that it runs on OS/X and distribute only the compiled binaries when it violates the GPL.

Cultural Centers of Montana

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, there's culture out there. And Montana ain't on the plains. It's a mountain state. The plains end somewhere around the Badlands in North Dakota. If you ever read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," or you've made the drive west on I-94 or I-90, you can see the difference.

According to the U.S. Census, Bozeman has 27,509 people, Missoula 57,053 , and Billings 89,847. The counties these cities are in have 67,831, 95,802, and 129,352 people respectively. They are the 3 largest, most significant cities in Montana, and house the 3 largest campuses for the 2 university systems.

Montana has zero political clout, which is the same amount of political clout that all 3-Congressman states have (and that's exactly why no presidential candidate or VP ever sets foot in those states). The current governor of Montana is an ultra-right-wing airhead, and brags that she is the "lap dog of industry." (Google for "lap dog of industry and Montana" and you'll find her -- I'm being totally serious!) The Republican head of the Montana house just killed one of the governor's advisors (or vice versa -- I can't remember which killed which) while driving drunk after attending a republican fundraiser.

Exactly the sort of place you'd expect to find support for Nazi business tactics. Of course, Missoula, being the hotbed liberal place that it is, had the second highest voter percentage for Nader of any county in the U.S. Bozeman wants to be the play-place of the rich, and Billings has sold its soul to the oil industry (and there's even several refineries IN THE DOWNTOWN). Billings is a real shithole, but since it has the highest population, businesses consider it to be where they ought to locate.

Ends justify the means?

[imadork]

I am 100% behind the concept that business should pay what the vendor wants for the software they use, and should be held responsible if they don't. But I find the BSA's methods to be less than agreeable.

Why?

• Because it puts the entire burden of proof on your business to prove that you comply.
• Because many licensing agreements are overly restrictive and you may not realize you're violating it. (Did you know that Apple's "Free" OS X 10.1 upgrade can only be run on a single computer at a time, according to their boilerplae license? Will the BSA bust you for only getting one copy, even though Apple gave it away for free in CompUSA, and all of your OS X installations are legal?)
• Because there is a difference between willful piracy (using 1 license of Office for 100's of workstations) and accidental "piracy" (losing track of the fact that an old, obsolete application is still on your server, and losing the licensing documents from 1992 in your last move).

In short, BSA tactics turn member companies' customers into adversaries, and scare said customers into giving them money rather than go through the time and trouble to "prove" (at the customers' own time and expense!!!) they own all their software. It sure sounds like extortion to me! In any case, I dare someone to argue that threatening to sue ALL your customers and cause them added expenses, even if they did nothing wrong, is a good way to develop a customer relationship!

Our government says: screw the BSA

[coolcast]

A few years ago, the BSA tried invading our country (the Netherlands) and sent out thousands of letters to different companies.

It wasn't long before the media picked up on it and the governmnent had to take a side. Their advice was: throw the warnings away. Ignore the BSA. They haven't got any right to invade a company; and the Dutch police will not assist them. I haven't heard anthing from them since.

Too crazy for words. I run my own company (1 employee: myself.) I can't wait for their audit so I can countersue them and have Microsoft pay my salary for the rest of my life.

Ever hear of Probable Cause?

[Wntrmute]

OK, let's say you steal $50,000 from the bank, and the police come to your house and say "Give us the $50,000 or we'll throw you in jail." Is that extortion? Hardly.


Actually, if the police bust down my door without a warrent, or with an illegally obtained one, it *is* illegal.

Let's say $50,000 has been stolen by someone in the city of, say, Orlando. The police most certainly cannot knock down doors of every house in Orlando without a warrant. If they do, the evidence is illegally obtained, and inadmissable in a court of law.

If they BSA were to show up at my door, I can first tell them to piss off, as they are a private organization with no law enforcement powers. Next they come back with a warrant, and get in, and find an illegally copy of FooBar 1.0. If our legal system actually worked, I could challenge the legality of the warrant on Probable Cause grounds, arguing that they had no reason to believe that I had illegal copies, thus making the search illegal, and the evidence inadmissable. (Refusing entry to your private space to someone without a warrant is not grounds for Probabale Cause either).

Unfortunately, I believe in some civil cases (which copyright infingment is) illegally obtained evidence can be admitted. So, they'd be able to sue me based on evidence concidered illegal in a criminal court.

Extortion? Maybe not. Flying in the face of at least the spirit of due process and the Constitution? Most definitly.

Re:Ever hear of Probable Cause?

[dhogaza]

The legal problem is that you've agreed to allow an audit by accepting the terms of the license.

Well, that's only one problem. Probable cause relates to criminal cases, not civil contractual disputes. You sign a contract with me, and I can sue you for non-compliance whenever I want (though a competent judge should throw out any obviously frivolous suits of this nature).

Of course, there's the whole EULA issue, but it's hard for a large organization that employes or retains legal beagles, to argue that they're unaware of the implications of such licenses.

Also, copyright infringement has nothing to do with this. License violations are the issue.

This may fly in the spirit of fair business dealings, but not "due process and the Constitution".

Re:Ever hear of Probable Cause?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exfept warrants are issued by judges based on probable cause, so you have to assume the cause was sufficient. Of course, if you suspect someone pulled a fast one on the judge you can challange the legality of the warrant and search.

Re:Ever hear of Probable Cause?

[danb35]

Probable cause relates to criminal cases, not civil contractual disputes.

If they're getting a search warrant, and having it served by federal law enforcement officers, it's pretty clear that a criminal case is being considered (or at least, that they're claiming so).

Re:Ever hear of Probable Cause?

[Gazelem]

What legal basis do they have to assume that you even have any copies of their software anyway? Is it because Microsoft has a near-monopoly on the desktop that they are able to use that to be probable cause that you have their software and extend that to permit the convoluted interpretation of the license agreement?

The software makers have the right...

[Boomer2]

...to ensure their copyright is not violated. A previous business I worked for was raided; and I support the folks who had it raided. If you use commercial software, pay for it. How much more simple can it get?!

Glad to see the statement in an earlier posting that the US Marshals require a court order before they'll act. Some people here and elsewhere like to be childish and think that the Marshals are just hired thugs for M$. Not true. The Marshals are doing the job of enforcing laws that have been on the books for decades and people understand at least the basic idea of those laws.

Anyone who pirate software is committing a crime; and they should be ready to pay the consequences. It's more likely that a business will be caught than an individual or household. That doesn't make piracy any less wrong.

BSA Radio Ads in Phoenix

[Sand_Man]

I have heard some radio ads here in Phoenix that the BSA is putting on that goes alot like this:

"Are you a disgruntled employee? Is your employer using unlicensed software? Do the right thing and turn them into the BSA."

It isn't quite that simple, but that is the message. Pretty scarey.

Freedom by Software

[virg_mattes]

You can indeed "go compliant" by switching. At the time they request the audit by mass mailing, there's no specific lawsuit involved. If you respond to the warning by dumping all of the licensed software in favor of free software, when they come calling for real, you can truthfully say, "I'm running only free software, so you have no license violations to pursue." At that point, they'd have to prove (in a legal sense) that you'd illegally used their stuff in the past to charge you, and the "anonymous tip" isn't sufficient for that point.

Virg

Re:The BSA threatened me (or rather, "Stumpy McGee

[Anonymous Coward]

For most types of internet accounts, giving correct personal information is a big mistake.

Legally, you are "Stumpy McGee". You can't get out of situations like this simply because you temporarily used a different name. If you used the account while at work, your employer may be held responsible for your activities as "Stumpy".

Unreasonable search (and maybe seizure)

[Jonboy X]

I'd be interested to see how the BSA is planning on getting around that nasty old 4th ammendment issue. I'd love to see an entire city get together and ignore them, and watch the BSA try and get thousands upon thousands of search warrants.

Scaring off their customers? Hardly.

[DiveX]

This will have the exact effect that the BSA expects. It will scare people into purchasing more software and then telling others about the scare whom will then do the same thing due to the threat (real or imagined) of being raided .

Do you seriously think that this will convince people to go to open source? People do not see open source products on the shelves at the computer store. Go into any non-computer business (and probably many of those even) and ask them about open source and you will get nothing but a blank look. Even if they look into it, they will se a long learning curve and thus not even try it. Try running a business and see how much time you have to trying to install new system that may or may not work.

The only way to keep this from them is not using unpurchased software in the first place (open source excluded of course) or encrypt your entire computer.

I remember reading about some money laundering operations that had thier system encrypted with the only key on a 5.25 floppy and a commercial grade waffle iron 2 feet away that was kept on at all times. If they were raided, the key would be toast in less than a second.

Wow!

[Amazing Quantum Man]

[sorry about that... stupid machine hit enter by accident]

The Boy Scouts are really getting agressive, aren't they! I promise I'll finish that merit badge, it's only been 25 years!

OT: BSA & Taste in advertising

[szomb]

In New York, the BSA had these unbelievably tasteful ads featuring "the Big Apple" overlayed by a shooting target, and the words "The BSA is targeting New York."

You just have to love it -- I wonder how many people appreciated that in the weeks following the WTC attack, appreciated it enough, maybe, to pay some attention to the writing in marker: "Or, use Free Software: no license fees, no forced upgrades, no software auditing Gestapo." I don't know who wrote that, I think it was that guy over there.

Offtopic

[Glytch]

What do you people have against Clinton? Sure, he was a bought-off slimeball, but no worse than any other politician. Personally, I admire a president who not only got a blowjob, but got it in the oval office. That's more than a lot of other old decrepit presidents ever got.

Re:Offtopic

[Anonymous Coward]

how the fuck did this get modded up?

Software licensing is such a racket.

[Deagol]

I once worked for a company that was a Miscrosoft Solutions Provider (or something like that). In addition to being required to have at least 2 Microsoft Certified Professionals (we had 4 MCSEs in-house), we got to pay a hefty fine^H^H^Hee for the privilege of using the MSP logo on our cards and plaque in the office.

We also got to buy some sort of really good licensing deal. For like $1000, we got 10 copies of damned near everything: WinNT, Office, SQL, Exchange, etc. I guess the idea was to let us play with the software, so we could peddle it more effectively.

Well, we eventually merged with another company. They were truly anal about software licensing, so we tried to do the proper self-audit.

We couldn't sort out the exact meaning of the 10-pack deal I mentioned earlier, so we called the local Microsoft branch and asked if the license we had purchased accounted for X many copies we were using.

Nobody at M$ could give us a straight answer about the licensing. We finally gave up after a few weeks of emails and calls. We figured that if were really were auditted, we'd throw the paper trail of attempted compliance back at them.

BSA Privacy page

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's an interesting note from the BSA's privacy page. GASP is the product used to scan for illegal software.

"The personal information volunteered by visitors to our website to download GASP software will be transferred to Attest who will use the personal information for a number of purposes, including the identification of users, direct marketing and online transactions."

Redhat installer

[kevinank]

Has anyone else noticed that the latest Redhat releases all come with the standard installer 'You must agree to this license to install this software' dialogue? The funny thing is that the license it displays is the GPL, which in turn says 'You don't have to agree to this license', but if you click 'Decline' the installer refuses to install.

So I guess that even Redhat hasn't read their own EULA very closely.

Re:This is precisely what I have been talking abou

[SuiteSisterMary]

"Perhaps, if you were to IDENTIFY some Communists for us, we would therefore know that YOU YOURSELF are not a Communist..."
"Of course, Senator McCarthy...."

We're not talking about enforcing the law...

[JohnGalt42]

OK, let's say you steal $50,000 from the bank, and the police come to your house and say "Give us the $50,000 or we'll throw you in jail." Is that extortion? Hardly.

Both the police and the BSA are acting as enforcing agents. Unfortunately there are several differences between your police example and the BSA:

1. The BSA, as an enforcing agency, has a certain conflict of interest. The police are (theoretically) an unbiased governmental organization charged with enforcing the laws.
   
   If you stole $50,000 from a bank and the police recover the money, the police do not directly benefit monetarily. The BSA is sponsored and supported by software companies who reap the monetary benefits if/when audited companies are forced to buy additional licenses.
   
2. One word: Accountability. The police, as an extension of the executive branch of government, have to be accountable to the public, because their payroll is directly funded by the taxpayers. In contrast, the BSA is accountable to whom? The very people who benefit economically from the efforts of the BSA. If they exert strong-arm tactics, why would their sponsors complain?
   

This issue is not really about stealing software from hardworking corporations like Adobe and Microsoft. It is about the strong-arm, scare tactics employed by a group with no public accountability funded by the very organizations who benefit from the group's efforts.

-JohnGalt-

Occupations I've used on online forms

[jet_silver]

Cartoonist.
Gigolo.
Roofer.
Unemployed.
Pickle packer.
Vintner.

Companies I've "worked for":
Big Bag of Stuff, Inc.
Other Things and Things.
Inquisition Software.
Blowme Inc.

Come on, do you say -anything- truthful on an online reg? Giving away your name, DOB and zip code are usually enough to get you personally identified via databases.

There are some times (esp. where big databases are concerned) when it is moral to lie.

Re:Occupations I've used on online forms

[ImaLamer]

Damn right!

It's moral to lie because sometimes you don't even have an answer. I don't work... sorry!

But now it seems I may have gotten myself into trouble since microsoft thinks I've got a organization [doing web development] which employs 1000+ people and has 250+ computers.

I guess my mom will get a letter in the mail asking for her to provide copies of 250 WindowsXX licenses.

BSA uses MySQL

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly enough, I noticed a bunch of MySQL errors this morning visible on the BSA homepage as BSA was temporarily slashdotted.

Let me get this straight - the BSA is using Open Source Software to run after pirates of closed-source software.

Truth is stranger than fiction...

Re: Estimates of the cost of privacy

[blibbleblobble]

Ok, I emailed the person who did their press release (Debbi Bauman) and got a prompt reply containing the report upon which they base their estimates on the "dollar value" of pirated software. I know people consider these estimates are notoriously inaccurate (distorted by crackers, open-source people, etc) so I was interested to find out how they did it, and what assumptions they made.

I know nobody likes multi-page comments on slashdot, so you can read it here on my website

It does not have to a be a business

[2Bits]

I doesn't have to be a real business operation. I had a web site before, but it has expired for more than a year now as I don't want to continue it anymore. The web site got nothing to do with business. And the only sytem I'm using is Linux. And I also got one of these stupid cards for the "business" that does not even exist.

Parse Error

[virg_mattes]

The original comment:

> > "The BSA member does have a legitimate need to get a return on investment"

Your comment:

> there is NO such thing as a right on ROI.


The original poster claimed not "right to ROI", just a legitimate need for it. His statement is correct.

Virg

Re:Parse Error

[Winged Cat]

"legitimate need" == "right". If you need something you have no right to, then your need itself is not legitimate, and continues to be so until either you get rid of the need or you obtain the right (usually by earning it).

Correction:

[drsquare]

It works out appallingly. I don't have digital TV, nor do I listen to the radio. That means I pay £110 year for two channels. What a bargain. Never mind that the channels are just as crap, brainless and devoid of quality as ITV, Channel 4 or Channel 5. Except that you don't have to pay £110 a year for those channels, and you don't get a massive fine even if you don't pay.

I don't know about you, but paying £110 a year to not have to watch adverts on two channels isn't my idea of an "excellent system". I would be even more infuriated if I didn't watch the BBC, and was paying an extortionate amount just to subsidise someone else's ad-free status.

Stab at an analogy.

[mindstrm]

I like this to the following.

Let's say someone robs a jewelry store.
So now, the jewelry store sends letters to everyone in town saying hey have to open up their house and PROVE they don't have the goods, or they will show up with federal marshals and toss your house.

That's what the BSA is doing. That's how it works. Microsoft does it too. They send you a letter requesting that you voluntarily AUDIT your company to make sure you comply with all their licenses. They offer to send someone to 'assist' if you like. They also remind you of the dire consequences if you refuse.

The one thing, though, is.. how do you think they find out about you? They find out when you actually call to get licensing information, or to buy software.
In fact, I would NOT be surprised if, when you buy it through a VAR, the VAR submits all your information to Microsoft.

So say you buy 50 licenses of Win2k. A year later, your web page says you've grown in size, are shipping more product, whatever. Microsoft checks it's database.. hmm.. you didn't buy more licenses form them. What are the odds that you have 'stolen' their software?

This is one place where Free Software really has an advantage: You don't have to spend the same amount of resources auditing your licensing all the time.

On warrants.

[mindstrm]

Actually... and I have no idea whether this is the same in the US or not...
But technically, if a private citizen (not a cop, I mean) showed up with a warrant, you'd have to let him exercise it, just as if he were a cop.

I know of one person anyway (This was in Calgary, Alberta, Canada) who, years ago when his credit card was being used fraudulently to look at porn, and he tracked it back to a local ISP... he went to the cops. The cops said "We don't really have any idea how to proceed.. sorry, nothing we can do (this was years ago)"

So.. he went to the courthouse, went to a Justice of the Peace, and filed for a search warrant. The Justice said "I don't think I can do that sir (it had never come up before)". The guy cited relevant sections of the law, and the judge politely asked for some time to review it.
The next day, he had a search warrant, to search the logs of the ISP in question to find out who the user was.
Now.. not wanting to piss anyone off, like the cops, he then took the warrant to THEM, and again requested their assistance, as he already had a warrant. They sent a couple guys with him, no problem.

What you say about proof is absolutely what the problem is. It's like the police sending letters to everyone saying "Please prove there is nothing illegal going on in your house", and then getting warrants for everyone who doesn't respond properly.

Re:On warrants.

[Happy go Lucky]

Actually... and I have no idea whether this is the same in the US or not... But technically, if a private citizen (not a cop, I mean) showed up with a warrant, you'd have to let him exercise it, just as if he were a cop.

The US (or at least part of it) is different.

In Colorado, only peace officers are allowed to serve warrants. That means that only someone who's actually designated as a peace officer by statute (CRS 18-1-901) can show up at the door with a warrant and any expectation of being let in.

One dodge that the Pinkertons used to use was, they would have their agents actually be commissioned as deputy sheriffs. Traditionally in the US, sheriffs' deputies were commissioned or fired at the pleasure of the sheriff, and he could name anybody he wanted. That, combined with bribes, ended up giving company troops police powers.

However, that's not as common as it used to be. Some states are now requiring that even reserve officers and reserve deputies have full certifications (three-four months of full-time training, the way we do it in Colorado) which makes it harder to commission company cops. Also, in this state, no cop has statewide authority unless he works for a state agency (like I did when I was a park ranger) and reservists have no authority unless they're actually on duty and under supervision.

Now, private citizens here do have citizen's arrest powers. However, exercising them opens them to the same lawsuit risks for civil rights violations that peace officers have. And the average private citizen can't define "probable cause" and wouldn't be able to identify a state statute for software piracy and therefore wouldn't be able to articulate his basis for making that arrest. Translation: Arrest without probable cause == false arrest == 42 USC 1983 lawsuit for civil rights violations filed against BSA and the specific arresting person.

I personally would also try to get the DA interested in a criminal case for kidnapping, if a BSA agent tried to "arrest" me.

Re:On warrants.

[mindstrm]

I have the feeling it's probably the same up here. After all, the guy did take the warrant to the cops.

Maybe his angle was that he could certainly get the warrant, but just couldn't execute it.

As for citizen's arrest.. same up here. It's on the books (The police really have no more power to arrest someone than the common citizen, technically). You just don't have the training to stand up in court and defend your actions.

Re:On warrants.

[Happy go Lucky]

I have the feeling it's probably the same up here. After all, the guy did take the warrant to the cops.

That's probably the wise thing to do anyway. Even if he could legally serve the warrant himself, the cops probably had the training to handle the evidence (and more importantly: the training to handle interference)

Maybe his angle was that he could certainly get the warrant, but just couldn't execute it.

Plausible. Here in the US, a private citizen can get orders from the judge to turn over evidence, but isn't allowed to do the searches himself. (The way it works is, the judge or court clerk issues a subpoena and the person named in the subpoena is expected to comply voluntarily. If he doesn't, then the judge sends Federal marshalls or the county sheriff to seize the named items and starts thinking about contempt proceedings.)

As for citizen's arrest.. same up here. It's on the books (The police really have no more power to arrest someone than the common citizen, technically). You just don't have the training to stand up in court and defend your actions.

I don't know how Canada's structured in terms of the national/federal system. Here in the US, though, each of the fifty states retains some degree of sovereignty, and therefore has its own laws regarding arrest powers. That means that my answers will be correct here in Colorado and probably dead wrong in most of the other states.

For instance, a private citizen has the same powers of _warrantless_ arrest as a peace officer. Felonies and misdemeanors, on view or upon probable cause. However, certain classes of misdemeanors and all petty offenses and all (CIVL!) traffic infractions are pretty much non-arrestable. A private citizen who arrests on a non-arrestable violation will end up in some pretty hot water.

OTOH, here in Colorado, private citizens have NO authority to serve warrants. It doesn't matter if the arrest warrant is for whoever killed JonBenet Ramsey. A private citizen can probably detain someone with an active and valid warrant and call the cops, but he can't arrest them.

And there are states which forbid ALL warrantless misdemeanor arrests, to both police and the public. And others which don't allow citizen's arrest when a citizen didn't actually see the crime, but allow a peace officer to arrest. And a few other ways.

Never mind that there's a common thread here called "Happy Go Lucky is talking about the US and doesn't know Canadian law well enough to comment." If Alberta allows private citizens to get and serve search warrants, then I guess they have their reasons for doing so.

But where I'm going with this is, any answer to any legal question here on /. is probably going to be wrong more often than it's going to be right.

Two Things, and the Real Point

[virg_mattes]

There are two things to consider. First, file access logs don't get run by default. You need to turn them on. Second, nobody remembered that the program was there, so unless the FA logger was set to promiscuous (a BIG drain on disk space and processor time) it wouldn't have been included in the sweep.

All this, however, goes around the point. If the BSA didn't have a way to prove that he was misusing the copy of WordPerfect, why did he have to pony up the fines for it? He was punished for not being able to prove that he didn't commit any crime.

Again, it's the force majeure of a big group of software companies winning out over the legal tenet of "innocent until proven guilty" and that's where the real crime resides.

Virg

Re:Two Things, and the Real Point

[opkool]

Well, I turn it on by default, storing log files on cheap backup tape. So I know who messed up with the system. This saved my butt more than once.

Also, I completely agree with you about BSA being bullish. They have o prove that you committed a crime. Heck, I own a car that can go over 35 MPH and cops do not stop me on every corner because "I can go faster than 35, so I am guilty of going over 35".

I thought that, in the USA, you were innocent until proven guilty.

But, nevertheless, I support the idea of BSA giving a run for its money to unlawful companies. And to individuals, using too much "borrowed software".

If they were using legal (payed for software), where would be Microsoft's desktop dominance?

So it is a case of mixed feelings: Go for them, but I cannot support someone presusming someone else guilty until proven the contrary.

Anyway. the best option is use OpenSource and be merry.

The issue is the same as with SPAM

[Anonymous Coward]

The companies want you to audit your computers at your expense, on the off-chance you might be running one of their products. As another poster said, it would be amusing to do it to them, i.e. make microsoft or other large companies pay an auditor to check that no-one on their site has downloaded any programs that you have written. Does anyone know if MS has a draconian policy that automatically checks all PCs for excess files? If so there must be a few annoyed programmers there.

Re: Yak

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, I missed that announcement. Good on him. I saw him at the Back In Time party last year, but I can't remember talking to him about abandonware, though he might well have mentioned it. The Blitz Basic version looks quite pretty (different graphics from the VIC-20 version, obviously) and is quite affordable. It would be interesting to know if it does well.

Wow. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[mindstrm]

Copy protection methods cost MONEY to develop. My god.. do you know how much a dongle would drive up the manufacturing cost of each copy of a piece of software? A CD costs a penny to produce. The box, a few more pennies. A dongle? Get real.

And any method they come up with will be broken in a short period of time anyway.. so it's a waste of effort.

You missed it.

[mindstrm]

These companies are NOT running pirated software. They sent out 700,000 of these letters. They did not send them to 'suspsects'. They sent them to anyone who has a computer.

Legal question

[Animats]

There's a significant legal question here. Why does the user have to prove that they purchased the software? In ordinary property law, ownership is established by possession. If you have something, and nobody can show they have a better right of ownership than you, it's yours. (Some things, like real estate and automobiles, are registered with governments, and have different rules, but that's irrelevant here.)

Illegal use can be established by other means, like finding multiple copies with the same serial number, or copies on non-original media. But it's up to the claimant to prove illegal use, not the other way round.

Heh.

[Anonymous Coward]

A few months back, I got a nice pamphlet from Microsoft whining about how they were going to send crack shock troops to my home if I was running illegal copies of their software.

Of course, they did put it in nicer terms than that.

I'm not even a freakin' business. I'm a single person, running Linux and a copy of '98 from back in the day on my second box.

Frankly, some of these companies being decimated by shit like this should start suing back and lobbying in Congress and such.

Microsoft and the trademark-violating Business Software Alliance are getting quite out of hand.

...Maybe we should take them to court if they don't let Alan Cox, RMS and CmdrTaco into Redmond so they can check for GNU violations. ;)

Bozeman? As in Montana??!

[Reziac]

Like, why?? Bozeman MT, college town, population maybe 50,000 by now, where I lived for 12 years... I'm having trouble envisioning a business there with enough software, pirated or otherwise, to be worth the BSA's trouble. Not to mention the cheery greeting they may well get from that dynamic duo, Smith and Wesson.

Copy of BSA/M$ letter posted on deja.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Mr ********

Improper software licensing is all to common in the business world.

If you're fully license, we commend you for making software asset management
a priority. If you're not sure, you should know that the Business Software
Alliance (BSA) - an association of leading software developers - is coming
down hard on organizations nationwide that use unlicensed software.

Not sure you're legal? Now's the time to find out. If you have any doubts
about whether or not you're properly license, we encourage you to take
advantage of the BSA Truce in (Name of City), July 1 - 31. During the Truce,
the BSA will hold off on software investigations. This gives you time to
check your software inventory and, if necessary, get the licenses you need.
If, when investigations resume on August 1, 2001, the BSA finds that you
took steps to get compliant during the Truce, you'll be excused from past
infringement penalties. *

Checking your licenses is easier than you think. We understand business is
hectic. That's why we've teamed up with Zones to provide you with a simple
way to double-check your software assets. Just call Zones at 1-888-239-0785
or visit www.microsoft.com/piracy/go/info and receive:

- A free, confidential software consultation.
- Up to 20%** off Microsoft Windows upgrades and Microsoft Office products.
- Expert advice on how to set up a solid software management plan for the
future.

So call Zones or contact your authorized Microsoft reseller today. And take
a proactive approach to protecting your software assets.

Sincerely,
Ashly Jungers
Compliance Manager

* This excludes any organizations already informed of a BSA investigation.
See www.bsatruce.com for full rules.
** Through the Microsoft Open License Program.

Re:This is precisely what I have been talking abou

[Anonymous Coward]

It does work both ways unfortunatelly. Right now the BSA is buying federal firepower, next time it could be the fed going to BSA with a 'tip' so they can have an excuse to confiscate your computers and get a handle on you.

Just got 5 of them

[malevolence]

As I was sitting here reading the comments on this article on my lunch hour, I got handed a stack of 5 of these notices. All 5 of them are for businesses that used to be at this location that have been closed for at least a year. I've been hearing the BSA's radio spots here in Orlando for the past couple of weeks. They are complete FUD, designed for business owners who have no idea what a software license is. My plan is to carefully ignore them.

Story you're referring to?

[crisco]

I remember this one, a chilling tale of a misguided audit doing severe damage to a corporation. It is an AC post, and requests for clues went unanswered (understandable where lawsuits are involved) but it rings true. Anyone have the wherewithal to track this down and verify?

They use mailing lists

[llywrch]

> So how exactly does this work? If you're a business in that area, do they send you a "card", and demand you reply with
> a statement saying that you're 100% compliant or they'll sue the pants off of you?

Last summer, I got one of these threatening letters to my home address. Shortly afterwards, I also got a letter from a certain company in Redmond, urging me to take advantage of the BSA softare truce. They suggest that I sign up for a ``free consultation" from a company called Zones, who will sell me MS software at 20% off.

The last piece of MS software I ever bought was a copy of DOS 6.0. (I may have registered it -- I don't have the box at hand.) I once subscribed to PC Magazine, but let the subscription run out in either 1994 or 95. Other than that, I have NO idea how they got my name, or thought I was running a business out of my house.

I ignored the mail. (I wanted to send a copy of the GNU & BSD licenses to them, since this covers almost all of the software I used, but my wife wouldn't let me.) I'm not sure if they caught any pirates in my area -- at least there's no report on their website.

Geoff

I just wonder....

[Restil]

Set up a company completely with open source software, and find window managers that perfectly emulate windows, or at least close enough that your average "my cupholder is broken" employee won't recognize the difference. Then brag excessively internally that you never pay for ANY software, which is true. Have some of these rants taped, and have one of your employees inform the BSA about your possible copyright violations.

This "clueless" employee assumes he's running Windows, so thats what he tells the BSA. That with taped evidence might be enough to justify a warranted search.

Have a few computers that are bombs that nobody uses. Any use of those computers will automatically script the opening of a dos window and format of the hard disk. Videotape those screens and the BSA "agent" at the computer while its happening. It will very much appear that these people are intentionally destroying company property without cause. And they can whine and deny actually doing it, but you've got them redhanded on videotape doing so.

Take them to court. Claim excessive damagers. I mean... how would they know what was on those systems.. they formatted the drives. Sure, it might have been foolish to store the only copy of the source to a multimillion dollar project on that computer, but its not YOUR fault that the BSA guy came in and destroyed your property without just cause, now is it? And the best part is, the search was completely unjustified since you own no proprietary software AT ALL.

Is this right? Not at all. And I would never actually endorse doing it. But someone vindictive enough might. And the BSA better realize this. I remember a news story a couple years ago, when bounty hunters broke into someone's house looking for a bond jumper, wearing skimasks and with no warrant. They bound up some of the residents and ended up killing two others who tried to fight back.

Turns out, they had the wrong house. And none of the people who lived there had warrants out for them. Law enforement and other related activies are not organizations you're allowed to make mistakes in. The cost of those mistakes means someone losing their freedom, or someone losing their life.

The BSA better realize that they could be placed into a similar situation by someone who doesn't care much for their tactics. Granted, if that company actually broke the law while staging this, the BSA would have some recourse, but the fact of the matter is, they act as a law enforcement agency, even though they aren't one. They need to realize that there are checks and balances for a reason. If you're going to break in somewhere and start scouring for something illegal, you better be damn well sure that there's a 100% chance you're going to find something that you're looking for. Otherwise you not only make yourself look like a fool, you make the software companies that you're "representing" look like fools for ever endorsing you in the first place.

And some lucky company will get a lot of free unencombered VC capital on your behalf.

-Restil

What it's really all about

[fedos]

I know everyone knows this already, but I'm surprised MS said it through their own mouths.

From the PowerPoint thingy:

Boost your revenue - millions generated through the channel!

Yep, this is about piracy alright.

Unfortunately, 2,000,000 Slashdolts got there 1st

[Anonymous Coward]

With all the stupid people mooing about, and trampling the clues underfoot, there's nothing left to screw. Want to chew some hay with the rest of them?

Why not self-audit, but not report details?

[morgue-ann]

Suppose your an IT manager in a company that uses non-libre software.

You want to keep on the up & up with licenses 'cause you a) think it's wrong to copy w/o 'em b) don't want the BSA hassle and/or c) want to keep track of what machines run what software so you can keep 'em from breaking.

So you do your own internal audits. When the BSA sends their threats, you say "we've audited & we're compliant." When they tell you to turn over the results of the audit you tell them politely to fuck off & stop wasting their time. Maybe mentioning the method by which you audit calms 'em down a bit.

I suppose this will piss them off even more than if you hadn't done an audit, but their attitude that only they know how to count might annoy a judge enough do deny an order to hand over your audit or let the BSA do one of their own.

-M

you will notice what the BSA doesnt do..

[Lumpy]

Suprisingly they dont dare try this with companies like AT&T, IBM, or other Giants. why? because these companies have the power to stomp them out of existance. Try and enter any of the above companies with your "storm troopers" without a court order. and you had better find something as they will be sued for lost time,expenses,lost work and profits and probably sued for huge damages in a very messy public affair.

Please BSA, try to strong arm a really big company.

Re:you will notice what the BSA doesnt do..

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, isn't it? I reported Lucent Technologies to the BSA for piracy last year after seeing CDs full of unlicensed software being used for system installs there. If the BSA raided Lucent, the press sure was quiet about it.

Re:you will notice what the BSA doesnt do..

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a Fortune 500 company that got hit by the BSA a while back and now has an asset management program in place. I spent three hours one day last year getting a talk about how important license compliance is.

The BSA is perfectly capable of getting in its bluff on reasonably large companies, unfortunately.

Re:you will notice what the BSA doesnt do..

[Anonymous Coward]

and if your fortune 500 company would have done it's purchasing right you wouldnt have had to.

The OS. we have a blanket license for corperate wide for microsoft NT4.0 and 2000. we can install 90,000,000,000,000 copies or just 2 it's the same cost. it is worded as "Unlimited installs on hardware owned by Company X that are in use on a regular basis" this does mean that every retired computer has it's hard drives wiped.
(actually corperate policy is to destroy every retired computer, but the CTO is a moron) and we have the same for every other app. when your company is as large as ours, we can demand certian licenses and terms.

Re:The BSA threatened me (or rather, "Stumpy McGee

[Anonymous Coward]

What exactly does the spyware do on your system?

If it's proprietary software only the developers know exactly what it does. The rest of us can't answer your question regardless of how much output it generates.

the battlestar gallactica version was better

[hawk]

I'm notsure I should admit I read it, but it was before the median slashdot user was born . . .

The Cylons are aliens rather than robots in the novels. They had a program or some such to simulate Starbuck so that they could question it (GIGO suggests that they won't generate new infomration,but that's a side issue . . .

"How many ships do you have?"
"As many as the grains of sand between your toes."
"Cylons don't have toes."
"Than maybe we don't have any ships."

:)

hawk

as did

[hawk]

the soviet's (youth brigade?), who I suspect shared the plan with red china and cuba.

yes, I *did* call that illegitimate government "red china"

hawk

Civil, not criminal

[Anonymous Coward]

In a civil suit you actually do kinda have to put up a defense to prove that you didn't do something. It is preponerance of evidence, not beyond reasonable doubt like in a criminal investigation.

If you went to court in a civil trial and said, "Prove I didn't do it, and I don't have to prove anything," then you will most likely lose.

Especially since they only have to prove that you have illeagely stold a single license of anything. Every business in the world has at least one peice of software illegally installed.

It is just easier to run Linux, free software, and not let anyone install their own software. Then when you get this letter, you just write back and say that you don't have any computers that will run their audit software.

Re:Civil, not criminal

[lamont116]

In a civil suit you actually do kinda have to put up a defense to prove that you didn't do something. It is preponerance of evidence, not beyond reasonable doubt like in a criminal investigation.

Not exactly. The plaintiff would need to show that it had sufficient evidence (in admissible form) to go forward in order to get to trial at all. If they have no proof, the case will be dismissed on summary judgment. Bare accusations won't cut it.

Prove It.

[ewhac]

There has never been a documented case of a software company going under due to unsanctioned copying of its products. Ever.

If true, yours would be the first-ever such incident. Would you care to provide more details and hard evidence -- product names, release dates, supported platforms -- rather than friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend hearsay?

Schwab

Welcome to Asset Forfeiture

[Lysander Luddite]

OT I know, but that is EXACTLY what happens in asset forfeiture for illegal drugs charges. Heck, you have to sue the State to get them back, but most people don't becuase they can't afford the legal expenses. So such practices are entirely legal, just not likely in this case.

Probably Won't Work

[ewhac]

A local radio station, 102.1 FM KDFC, has been running the scare-tactic ads for a while now. In response, I sent the below letter to their public affairs editor. I have yet to receive any reply from them.

From this, I conclude "The Media" isn't interested in presenting contrasting points of view. You might be able to get them to run an ad, but only if you pay major bucks for it (which none of us have). And there's no guarantee that a quiet phone call from the BSA won't get your ad pulled.

Schwab

-- Letter appears below --

Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 06:02:59 -0800
To: nkrautter@kdfc.com
Subject: BSA Ads

Your station is currently broadcasting an ad from the Business Software Alliance (BSA) intended to intimidate local businesses with the threat of a, "BSA investigation."

It's probably worth mentioning that the BSA is not a law enforcement agency or any other arm of the government. They are a privately held political advocacy committee funded principally by Microsoft. As such, they have no power to launch an "investigation" or compel cooperation with such activity without actually filing a lawsuit.

As a software professional of over 20 years experience, I take umbrage at the BSA's misleading and intimidating tactics, and feel it merits a response. If it is within the scope of your station's editorial policy, I wonder if you might be willing to consider broadcasting a rebuttal to the BSA's ad?

Thank you very much for your time.

Schwab

Logic Error

[virg_mattes]

Having a legitimate need for something does not imply or enforce a right to it. There are many examples of things that I could need to which I have no right, under certain circumstances, but to say that not having rights to something invalidates the need for it is backwards logic. To say this is to argue that because a slave has no "right" to freedom, his need for freedom is invalid. A company can need to make a profit and have no "right" to do so, in which case it dies.

Virg

Re:Now hold on a minute... - O.T.

[ryanvm]

People will always find some excuse for piracy, but until someone is pirating YOUR software, i really dont think you have any right to excuse yourself. It's theft of intellectual property. Don't do it

If you write software and ask that people not use it without paying you - that's fine, it's your prerogative. But to go around spouting that it's theft or piracy is irresponsible. A breach of copyright, sure, but theft it ain't.

The definition of theft and piracy hinge on the notion that something you had has been taken away. So unless you don't have your software anymore - it wasn't stolen.

large audience?

[Dogun]

Someone should get these BSA bastards on TV, or slander them, like on ZDTV (or TechTv, whatever it's called these days. Leo Laporte... whatnot...)

Childish Machismo (or Judo?)

[crucini]

The BSA/SPA raids are deeply depressing. Unfortunately, the common response on slashdot is even more depressing. Most of the responses are out of the imagination of a 10-year-old:

1. "I'd shoot them if they came in my door!" They come with US Marshals. If you manage to gun them down, more and more law enforcement will pile on and you will eventually go out in a blaze of glory ala Waco. Nobody will remember you as a hero for defying the BSA/SPA - you will be remembered as the jerk who killed many law officers.
   
2. "If they do FOO or BAR it's illegal and I'll sue/prosecute them!" These organizations are run by lawyers. They know the relevant law far, far better than you do. They're not doing anything illegal. However all the half-baked schemes proposed for thwarting their investigation probably contain illegal actions.
   
3. "They can't install their audit software on my computers without my permission!" Yes they can. It is part of executing a judicially authorized search.
   
4. "I'll obstruct the search through a clever hack!" This is probably a bad idea from a legal standpoint. If your clever hack is penetrated, which it probably will be, you have substantially strengthened their case if it ever goes to trial. And you are probably liable for the hours you wasted.
   

I understand that these comments are a natural reaction to the fascistic raids being conducted. But the reactions are childish and will do nothing to help combat these adversaries. Everyone should read this Wired story. Notice that almost none of the victims will talk to a reporter, even off the record. That indicates a huge gap between the bravado being displayed on slashdot and the actual emotional state of someone who has been through the process.

So what can we do realistically? The single smartest thing we can do is "judo marketing" - riding the adversaries' momentum to our own advantage. Imagine if we could follow up a BSA/SPA card mailing with a similar mailing explaining how to get your business 100% license-free, and listing qualified consultants in the area. Since the BSA appears to be using commonly available lists of businesses, with no regard for whether they have bought software, we could mass mail to the same lists. If we had a mechanism for Linux consultants to pool marketing monely, we could even buy ads on AM radio (which is what business owners are more likely to listen to.) That would be a truly adult and effective response to this campaign of terror.

innocents?

[Roadmaster]

ok, so just because it pisses you off when your software is pirated, that entitles your representatives to go scaring and threatening me, even if I don't have a pirated copy of your software? how about I've never heard from you or your software, don't use it, and still, I have to waste my time and resources proving i'm not delinquent?

The big issue here is not with pirates, who probably deserve what they get. It's with those of us who have no pirated software (mainly free software here) and have to go through the burden of proving our innocence because we're being considered guilty to boot.

It's that attitude from the BSA that makes us say "bring them on, I'll sue their asses when they come and tear the place apart and find nothing but Linux and OpenBSD here". A bullyish attitude will always find at least one hostile response.

GPL enforcement is similar..

[ikekrull]

Let us not forget that these guys are simply trying to protect the rights of the companies they represent.

When you or your company pirates software, you are breaking the terms of the license.

If you take GPL software and distribute it without providing source, i doubt there would be any outcry when the author of the software - or, in fact, an organisation like the FSF, sends cease-and-desist letters to the offending organisation.

I agree that the BSA entering your premises is a questionable practice, but, as we have seen with recent Borland liceses, in many cases you or your emplyer will have agreed to this as part of your licensing contract.

I am constantly stunned at the apathy the senior management of my company express with regard to software licensing.

My Linux desktops and servers are all completely compliant with regard to their respective software licenses, but every Windows desktop/server we run has at least several hundred and at worst several tens of thousands of dollars of unlicensed software on it.

When presented with an estimate of the cost of becoming compliant (over a hundred thousand dollars with our current deployed server apps), they shrug and ask how long we can continue to put off paying.

So, IMHO, these guys get what is coming to them when the BSA knocks on their doors.

It's not like they don't have a choice to use free software, if they feel that paying for it is not really an option.

Forgot the key point

[Veteran]

What is to keep Vito Bentnose from creating the Business Software Compliance Agency and doing exactly the same things that the BSA is doing?

The answer is basically nothing. This is a really sweet scam - send a threatening letter to a company 'audit' them and demand payments. If Vito wants to be 'legit' he can even split his take with software companies.

It would appear that both Vito and the BSA have got nothing going for them but bluff and intimidation; however in the age of the DMCA both Vito and the BSA have got an even stronger bluff. They can claim that by failing to have the proper number of licenses you are breaking a digital encryption method and subject to the draconian 5 year felony conviction + $500,000 fine for the first offense, 10 year + $1,000,000 fine fore each subsequent 'offense' penalties of the DMCA. Look 'fraudulently' having a license number to enter into the software when it asks for one is 'circumventing' a digital encryption method for protecting a copyrighted work.

I doubt that the BSA can file a business method patent on their way of extorting money - so how would a company know that Vito's organization is not authorized to do what it is doing?

Is it now clear to everyone that what the BSA is doing is extortion?

BSA supports DMCA

[Skapare]

The BSA supports the DMCA. This press release explains that. Now you know more about these guys and who really gives them their marching orders.

list

[Lord Omlette]

In previous press releases they state that they send out up to 700,000 of these cards simultaneously.

What we need is this list, so we can market opensource software to these businesses, so they never have to worry about funky license shit. Like GPL or BSDstyle? Oh wait. You know what I meant.

Re:I repeat my earlier advice: wipe your ass with

[rat7307]

Yes, But they (BSA) are awaiting your reply - therefore it does not become unsolicited mail...

our reseller got this, forwarded it to us...

[indiigo]

Then we wiped off the software from machines, rather than purchasing the licenses. (we had expanded greatly over the past year, and chose not to buy the software until we were certain when we would stop hiring.) We now load on Terminal Services, and skirt the licencing altogether. If the license specifies that we must pay for each machine accessing the software, we toss it.

We can't afford the software. As a law firm, it's also our responsibility, but they can't expect us to give away 30K a year of our revenue to software vendors...

Yeah, we're looking at Linux... If only our clients would

Hey Moron, (was Re:Fuck you, slashdot.)

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't recall the original post mentioning that it ws OK to pirate software. I believe what most people
here are concerned about is the invasion of privacy and the presumption of guilt. Both of which are prevented by the constitution of many 'civilised' countries. If you don't like people who defend the rights their ancestors fought hard to win for some sociopathic reason then fine, go buy some booze or something else that will shut you up.

Hoof-in-mouth disease at Microsoft

[chc_in_pa]

I am dumbfounded by the hubris of Microsoft marketing types. I can not imagine a more effective way of isolating and antagonizing your customer base. While the BSA member organizations include more than just MS, I am not sure any of the other outfits are as closely allied or as aggressive. One week after the "Grace Period" letter from BSA, I had in hand a direct-mail marketing piece from MS which stated in effect: "What would you rather have (A) Stiff Penalties or (B) Great prices on Software upgrades." For the record, we (the organization which I serve as director of IT) purchased audit software, corrected the problems we identified (very few, and due to oversights not criminal activity), and are done. I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of copyrights and paying for legal copies of software. That is a no-brainer. And, also for the record, our organization's IT Committee has determined (1) No upgrades to XP at the server/desktop or application level, and (2) Linux is to be installed on all servers within three years, and desktops soon after. This decision flows from the fact that (1) we no longer wish to be held hostage to Microsoft with respect to when and how often to upgrade our OS's and apps; and (2) we wish to have no further dealings with companies who treat us this way. Unless one is impressed by talking paper clips, WordPerfect Suite and StarOffice provide all the functionality we need. Microsoft's clumsy handling of the legitimate concern of piracy has pushed us over the edge. It's their loss.