Slashdot Mirror
Ukraine Tries to Avoid U.S. Trade Restrictions
GMFTatsujin writes: "In response to the threat of US trade sanctions, the Ukraine parliament hastily passed an anti-piracy bill aimed at reducing the bootlegged CD problem. I especially liked this quote from this Wired article: '"We are deeply disappointed that Ukraine has not passed an effective law and instead is rushing through an ineffective law," said Eric Schwartz, vice president and special counsel of the International Intellectual Property Alliance." This is a follow-up to our story of two weeks ago about Ukraine not complying with U.S. demands for 'an optical media licensing regime.'
As a former Soviet republic, doesn't the Ukraine have any nuclear weapons that they can use to argue away sanctions? And what's so important about CD piracy? We don't have trade sanctions on Taiwan or China or Russia, do we?
[o]_O
We are sorry that we can't squeeze more money out of this poor war-stricken nation in their time of Economic rebuilding. This will effect our share-holders bottom line, and this cannot happen. Sounds pretty much like the nice-speak in the post, no? *snort*
Sent from your iPad.
who has a problem with the phrase "optical media licensing regime"?
US Gov't-sponsored monopolistic behavior anyone?
What's that smell? Ah, that's my karma burning...
..I guess their first mistake was to give up all those nukes.. ;-)) Now gotta play by the rules..
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
Yes, you certainly don't want to confuse the Ukranian law with our highly effective crack squad of trained monkeys hammering out legislation. OUR government officials completely understand the implications of their laws.
Never confuse volume with power.
Surely the US can show the Ukraine how this will benefit their economy as well. Think of how many millions of dollars (rubles?) are lost due to the 'pirating' of Ukrainian pop music in China. I wonder what percentage of their GDP '99 Luftballoons' accounts for...
John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
This law, or any law the Ukraine makes on CD piracy, is a law on paper only. The gov't is more concerned with supplying food and utilities to their people than whether the RIAA is going to receive their profits. To place trade sanctions on a country because they're harboring terrorists or committing genocide is one thing, to deny a country supplies because they might sell the CD's they burn is absurd.
"And they thought Stalin was the devil!"
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
It's not like the US plays by the rules either. 1. 2.
sig
From the Wired article:
Music and other CDs that sell for more than $15 in Western Europe cost about $3 for a pirated copy in the capital Kiev.
Now, if CD's were a little cheaper, there'd be less incentive to pirate. This is testimony to the inefficient distribution model in place today for the music industry. A lot of hands in the till, as they say.
I'm not afraid of falling, it's the sudden stop at the end that frightens me.
I'm deeply offended at this. The U.S. government is punishing an entire nation for the actions of it's democratically elected government. It's not like there's a group of radicals forcing the Ukrainian people to pirate CD's...the decision to not follow US demands was made consciously and rationally by that country's ruling bodies.
The U.S. just happened to decide that our laws are better than their laws....and forced them to follow ours.
"Isn't that the sweetest little well-balanced undergraduate-level philosophy of life."
[among other things]
Of course the US is raising the tariff on oil imported from Ukraina. Neither Bush nor Cheney own any wells over there.
[-1: Cheap shot]
--
E_NOSIG
Of course we need to restrict the Ukraine, otherwise the Red team will be able to connect its European horde with its ten-army piece in the Ural Mountains!
"We are deeply disappointed that Ukraine has not passed an effective law and instead is rushing through an ineffective law,"
What motivation does the Ukranian goverment have to implement, and assign funds to appropriate the policing of such a bill? There has to be some motivation here. Do you really think that Pakistani President Musharraf wants to help America out of the goodness of his heart? No! While I do commend his help, he really does this so that he gets financial aid and lifted sanctions.
So I ask again, why should Ukraine support this? It gives its poor citizens cheap goods so that they can buy other necessities (food, vodka). Not that it's right, just that people don't necessarily care. Such questions must be addressed, and I'd be interested to know how the Slashdot communities' theories are in how to motivate countries like Ukraine, China, etc (where pirating is rampant) to put a halt to it?
I think that he is probably one of the best people to talk about hastily rushed-through anti-piracy bills. In fact, I'd say he was an expert in this field.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
... "Why do they hate us so much?"
-------------------------------------------------
charlton heston is more of a man than yo
So does the US impose sanctions on every nation that refuses to dance to the RIAA/MPAA's tune? At what point does this become counter-productive for a country that's also currently trying to keep an anti-terror coalition together?
Her Magesty's Secret Service sends in Austin Powers. Same with Goldfinger or Octopussy. MI6 sends in Bond, James Bond with some nifty gadgets, a cool car, and a budget-size box of condoms.
Why is it when the United States Corporate Interests are holding the world hostage by threatining to destroy a country economically if they don't meet our demands, it's Business as Usual?
Where's Powers? Where's Bond?
The movies have lied to me.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
The fact is that the US has a lot of balls trying to impose these restrictions overseas when in fact they cant even do a good job of copyright enforcement at home. Why? Because Americans know it's a bullshit property right, and don't have one bit of guilt about copying freely. How many millions of illegal coppies did napster propigate? I bet you anything that it wasn't the Ukrane doing all those downloads.
I'm of Ukrainian decent, and I have friends and family that have been there recently.
A friend had to pay off cops to avoid getting beaten up because his Canadian passport wasn't in Ukrainian. A priest I know was stopped right off the plane at customs and had to pay $500 to get through.
The country is corrupt and falling appart. Who is going to enforce this law?
-... ---
Let's not forget the fact that when the article says, "demands that the US has made" -- they mean what the government of the US wants, not necessarily what most of the people of the US want .
Government *always* tends to side with the demands of big business before the hearing the voices of individuals, often blatantly in the face of what the individuals of the US may desire. It's each person's job, as a citizen of this democracy, to make sure that the business of America is not "just business".
Can you imagine how refreshing it would be if the US Government chose to promote the free trade of copyrighted music abroad, hoping to spread the goodwill of America's wealth? Suppose it were to say that the record companies have made enough money here, let's let the rest of the world enjoy it too, without robbing them blind? Wouldn't that make us a country whose policies are worthy of admiration?
"We are deeply disappointed that Ukraine has not passed an effective law and instead is rushing through an ineffective law."
"Ukraine's legislature is crafting its own law rather than rubber-stamping the one we provided."
the US gov't isn't the backbone of this whole manipulation, it's the RIAA (and the international IP association). the US gov't is just doing it's usual job by taking lots of money from the lobby. someone's gotta snag those mo-fo's into some quake action and show 'um what fraggin is all about.
instead is rushing through an ineffective law
Right; Ukraine should take their time and do it right. What's the hurry?
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
Hats off to the Ukrainian deputies who rejected the idea of requiring a licence to press CDs. I'm sure the US Congress would not show as much backbone.
--
E_NOSIG
The United States plans to impose sanctions on Ukraine's metals and footwear industries on Jan. 23.
i guess it's gotta be wall-mart shoes, or some "valu-brand" thing. i'm sure if this had some nike or reebok plants, the us would be looking for other industries to sanction. anyway. can't the riaa take a hint? PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COPY THE MUSIC!
Is this the same Eric Schwartz who did all the cool animations on the Amiga over the years? Those Amy the Squirrel ones were really cute :)
I have a bunch of friends and relatives back in Russia and my father actively travels to Russia and the Ukraine for business... even 3-4 years ago when Bill Gates asked Russia to stop selling pirated copies of Windows 9x/NT.. Russia couldn't really do anything about it, except order a military tank to drive over a bunch of pirated CDs they collected, to destroy it... an interesting, yet ineffective solution
friends and relatives in Russia still tell me that when they go to flea markets, people still sell pirated software at a ridiculously low price... this goes for audio CDs as well and even hardware...
so in conclusion, if Russia claimed to have "stopped" people from selling pirated software, is Ukraine going to approach the same matter? just do a thing or 2 about the whole situation then tell the US... "ok we're done, now lift the sanctions please"
"The ones who dont do anything are always the ones who try to pull you down" -- Henry Rollins
A hero indeed.
"But the London-based International Federation of the Phonographic Industry, or IFPI, which represents the international recording industry, said Ukraine had missed its "last opportunity to avoid ... U.S. trade sanctions.""
Seems kind of strange that a London based recording industry group that I have never even heard of here in the US appears to be bandying around the threats of United States trade sanctions.
Between them and the RIAA and MPAA it's like the freakin' Brotherhood of Evil or something........
I've seen Ukrainian CD's for sale of material that the U.S. music companies no longer sell at all. If the U.S. companies are too lazy to bother to sell the music, they shouldn't complain at all when the Ukraine steps in to fill the demand.
Honestly, considering the fact that the Ukraine and other parts of the Old Soviet Union are so poor... I'd say the only Cds that they are going to be burning are the ones to keep their homes warm. IF (and this is the big one), and I mean IF they can even get optical media.
Besides, what does a computer with a burner cost these days... three years average Russian salary? More for the Ukraine? Honestly, these people cannot afford the wholesale piracy that they say is happening.
This is B.S. hardball. After all, what is the consequence of letting them burn? More Russians singing pop songs in broken English?
Think if you were the Ukrainian authorities... and you really, really, really, need capital. This is not even a concern to you. Some foreign country starts yammering about CD copyrights? YOU'VE GOT STARVING PEOPLE. THE BEST OFF LOOK LIKE THE POOREST IN THE REST OF THE WESTERN WORLD. I am a US patriot, but I would tell them to go pick a bigger issue to restrict my trade over.
Have you visited International Intellectual Property Alliance? This is scary shit. This is no international organisation, this is a organisation created by likes of RIAA, MPAA, IDSA, BSA and AAP, all very much concerned about 'piracy' and 'copyright infringement'. Just 2 examples from their milestone page:
In 1984, the U.S. copyright industries pressed the Congress to make ineffective IPR protection an "unfair trade practice" under Section 301 of the U.S. trade law. Congress made this and other similar changes which marked the first time IPR protection was made part of the U.S. trade agenda.
At the conclusion of the Uruguay Round, a new chapter on intellectual property rights, the TRIPS Agreement, was included for the first time ever in a global trade instrument.
- "Monitoring cable modems without a warrant is double-plus-ungood".
Your comments on the matter are double-plus ungood. Verging crimethink. Big Brother is watching. Didn't you get the message during the two minutes of hate?
(sorry, I just finished the book a couple months ago and haven't had a chance to annoy people with innane references to it yet.
It's been a long time.
The refusal to trade with the Ukraine if they don't comply with piracy standards makes perfect sense in theory. But, since the US is so powerful, such action can be crippling to most nations.
A nation has the right to try to protect against piracy, right?
Well, since the US has a monopoly on power, it should have different standards of what it can or can't do, so that this power is not abused (like MS).
mark
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. -- Carl Sagan
That's what the missile defense system is for. We'll just swat those nasty missiles out of our blue skies like flies.
Though if any are aimed at Hollywood or Redmond we'd be better servered just letting them through.
:-)
It isn't software pirates who would be to blame, but copyright cartels who pushed our government to such a showdown, if it ever came to that.
"Proud to be an American, becuase at least I know I'm free!" *cough*
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
You know, I've always been kinda sketched out about those anti-WTO anti-globalization protestors who tear up cities everytime a trade meeting is held. They claim that these globalizing organizations just make the poorer countries and peoples even poorer and more destitute, and all to serve the selfish interests of a few powerful Western corporations. I wasn't sure how much I believed that, I was kind of undecided about the issue, but it doesn't get much more cut and dry than this.
We have a starving nation and people who are the poorest of the poor. And we are imposing trade sanctions (where trade sanctions are starting to seem inhumane even against the likes of Fidel Castro's and Saddam Hussein's regimes) against these people. And for what? To protect the interests of Western intellectual property companies? It's hard to imagine that these sanctions won't fail to cause at least one more starvation death among the poor masses that live in the Ukraine, and it really does seem like what the anti-globalization people have been saying all along is coming true. Apparently Western corporate profits really are more important than 3rd world lives to those who are currently in power.
Just yesterday the US government tried to remove the FCC from the decision process with respect to mega media corp mergers. Why?
:)
1) giant media companies need FCC approval prior to mergers.
2) The FCC tends to be very critical of such moves.
3) The only remaining regulation is the DOJ and any mega media company can own that as long as the president gets some nice toys for being good.
Was this on TV? No. Why? What mega media company would cover their own dirt? *think* Maybe the problem is already showing
It was on NPR though. Dirty politics at its best. I wonder which elected people put a stop to it.
They served their country well. Even while on recess.
If anyone has a link to the details please share it. I just heard it while driving around town.
Eric W. Schwartz... The extremely talented animator.
:)
Who stands in a position to actually say "Hey, you gotta tell your citizens how they're allowed to listen to stuff or WE^H^HI won't let them listen to it." I'm a US citizen, and the theory is that I have a say in this. And I suspect most people really aren't interested in pushing for this sort of thing - so why is it there?
SIG: HUP
"The United States plans to impose sanctions on Ukraine's metals and footwear industries on Jan. 23. "
I'm sure the US has made every effort to impose sanctions that will do the least amount of damage to our own industries. Ukranian footwear? WTF?!
Those that suggest you "dance like no one is watching" really want to see you make a complete fool of yourself.
Apparently Western corporate profits really are more important than 3rd world lives to those who are currently in power.
This is exactly the ethos our government has been subscribing to, openly since the Reagan era of the 1980's and perhaps much longer than that.
It isn't just "third world" lives, either. American profits are deemed much more important than American lives (e.g. Mansanto deliberately polluting an American town's groundwater as recently as a few short years ago, killing many people, maiming many more, and not a single board member, employee, or shareholder will ever see the inside of a jail cell).
We made a conscious choice as a society to subscribe to a system which values wealth above everything else, and rewards greed above every other character trait. Worse, we've decided corporations are to be treated as people, with all of their rights and none of their responsibilities, exacerbating an already poor cultural choice.
Is it really any surprise at all that the natural consiquence of such a system, based upon such a skewed ethical premise, is that Corporate Profits are considered to be vastly more important the human lives?
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
The anti-globalist protesters in Seattle and Genoa are so much like Hitler brownshirts on Kristallnacht. Their aim was to shut down meetings that they did not like (so much for freedom of assembly and freedom of speech), and often the victims of their violence were small businesses. Great way to fight global companies: destroy small business.
I've often made this mistake and didn't know better until a friend from Ukraine recently corrected me.
Ukraine does not get a "The" in front of it - it's just like we usually don't say "The France" or "The England".
I know it sounds weird.
Your comments on the matter are double-plus ungood. Verging crimethink. Big Brother is watching. Didn't you get the message during the two minutes of hate?
Crimethink? In EngSoc? I'll be good, I promise! Just don't bring the rats back!
Well, it's nice that someone besides me gets the reference. ^_^
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
For people of Russian descent (I am one), the concept of purchasing music and software hasn't existed for some time. The RIAA's idea that recorded music can be controlled is the result of obedient Americans (and possibly Western Europeans).
In the Soviet Union, we always used to copy all types of recordings onto tape. This is still done by Russian immigrants in the US (and by many others, I'm sure). The RIAA thinks that because CDs are better, people would never copy them onto tapes. Well, the small loss of quality is negligible compared to having a chance to listen to the music in the first place.
I visited St.Petersburg, Russia recently. The underground walks that lead to the subway stations are lined with kiosks selling all sorts of magazines, medicine, etc, but mostly CDs. There must be tens of thousands of CDs in total at any single station. These kiosks are 100% legal.
The CDs? Collections of every type of software imaginable, collections of music (such as every song ever released by U2 on one CD), etc. They go for a few dollars apiece (*30 for rubles). Most Russians can't afford to spend thousands of dollars on software or hundreds of dollars on music. Thus the pirate CD industry for them fulfills an essential market.
Furthermore, these CDs then get imported into the US where they fulfill the same exact market. There aren't too many people who can afford to spend $20 on a CD for every singer they want to listen to.
Are they wrong to do this? I personally would say that the artists and software companies benefit, since for them this is free publicity. It is the companies' own fault that they charge unreasonable prices for their products that these people could never afford to pay anyway.
Check the CIA World Fact Book - they call it "Ukraine".
d ex .html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/in
Sudan is also Sudan.. but just to make sure they don't get rid of all "The"'s, they have "The Bahamas" and The Gambia.
I know the CIA is not perfect, but I trust them on little things like country names.
If the U.S. only let the RIAA loose on its own people, all it would have to deal with are the "extremists" that disagree with it. But imposing trade restrictions on behalf of the RIAA.. now we'll have entire countries speaking up.
If a person robs a bank, they will probably serve from 8-20 years in prison where as a murder will get 2-4 with good behavior. Now it's not that the US government has any against other countries. It's because the government doesn't care about lives of any kind. No government for that matter cares more about an individual than sustaining the government. From governments view, a few losses here or there is good, because it's "natural".
Even though we have a bill of rights, it's more like bill of sales. It is only important in that people can sell their rights for profit, or I could by cynical.
What is truly unfortunate is that only the most violent nutcases ever make the news and the whole movement gets attached to those nutcases. It is an age old dilemma of course. The internet promises the possibility of fresh hope by providing alternatives to the mainstream media and the ability to make anonymous comments without the fear of reprisal. Of course, there are constant attempts to change that but to me the technology to circumvent will always be one step ahead of the technology to censor.
Everyone knows the CIA doesn't do diplomacy, so of course they don't know where the embassies are! Ask them about missile silos, or anyone except for Osama, and they'll give you a 12 digit grid!
2 11
For embassies, though, we have the state department! And they say it's "Ukraine" too.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/bgn/index.cfm?docid=3
Though, I think the fact that two government agencies concur on the name for a country probably indicates the place doesn't even really exist!
What happens if a large chunk the embargoed countries start there own UN, world bank and WTO? It wouldn't get anywhere if Iraq joined up but it might with say China,the Ukraine and Russia on board for starters.
Isn't our trade policy putting us at millitary and financial risk. A unified world can still kick our ass at war and maybe even trade.
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
In 1775 another country was trying to impose its laws in the interest of an oligarchy of corporations monopolizing luxury items.
Has the US passed a law that effectively reduces CD bootlegging?
Sure, they have the laws, but everyone and their brother seems to be pumping out MP3 based cd's these days.
~ now you know
It's not the rewarding of greed that's the problem. Greed is what gets the go-getters up in the morning. It seemed to work pretty good for 180 years or so...
The problem here is allowing and encouraging the concentration of power into only a few places. ie: encouraging the Fed to get stronger while the states weaken. Next you see liberal readings of the constitution where the "commerce clause" can justify anything and expensive lobbying efforts can convince a politician nearly anything is reasonable.
Greed has always been rewarded. The US was classically just the country that admitted and used this idea in their laws. Now we're the country with the most powerful governing body in human history. I fear for the future.
> The 9/11 bombers hated us for reasons that we have no way of alterring... unless one considers it acceptable for us to give up our equal treatment of women, our freedom to NOT be religious, and yes, even our indulgences in Hollywood entertainment and other things that affluence brings.
You've either spent too much time listening to recent rhetoric, or not enough time boning up on history. The U.S. being rich or not being a Muslim nation has very little to do with what happened on September 11th. For the most part, Osama bin Laden hates the U.S. for three reasons, in no particular order:
1.) We're closely allied with Israel.
2.) We've had a military presence in Saudi Arabia (his homeland and what he considers Muslim holy land) for decades.
3.) After training and equipping him and his assistants in 1980-1983 so they could fend off the Russian invasion, we pulled out of Afghanistan, leaving the Muhajadin (sp?) (which became the Taliban) poorly equipped to fight a civil war with the other Afghan factions that lasted to the present day (they were still fighting the Northern Alliance when the attacks occurred).
If you think that our affluence and our non-Muslimism is such a factor, you're not paying attention. It's easy to say that they hate us because they're jealous or because they're simply religious zealots, but it's wrong, and such myopia only serves to prevent us from considering how we can really change things in the world.
Virg
I agree that Russia falls in the free world, but do we? There is a travel advisory on the US for Russian computer specialists.
Totalitarian economies are rarely very strong... a "League of Evil Nations" with Iraq, mainland China, North Korea, Libya, and other pariahs would be brutal but not very powerful.
I can totally see how you thought I meant a "league of evil nations." I meant somthing more like a progressivly growing aliance specificly designed to exclude us based on our law anbd practice. If the US becomes to much of a bully, wouldn't it be simpler for say the EU to just ignore us in it's dealings with Russia. It's just a few pen strokes away.
The next big war will be over Intellectual property. As manufacturing costs become neglegable, designs, plans, art, bulk raw materials and land will the only things worth anything. When the entire economy revolves around Ip law and IP law is corrupt, fudalism prevails and "free" countries like Russia might just square off with us on our Human rights abuses.
IP is not a bad idea, but the monoplies it produces must be much more limited. There is way to much disparity, and the gap is growing, quickly.
Software patents look a little scarrier now don't they.
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
Microsoft doesn't have to use guns (if it were legal and they could spin the PR, I think they might...) to ruin someone's business all they have to do is threaten to do so.
Ukraine is the big loser of the cold war. Economy ground into the dirt, far beyond. Ukraine used to be close to the same standard of living as the USA, so this is actually a good way of imagining things...
So imagine this happened to the USA... Prices of everything go up ten times. But wages stay the same. Imagine this lasting for 10 years. Honestly, imagine how the USA would look. Educated, intelligent, hardworking and motivated people forced onto the streets, to beg and steal just to eat. The entire world collectively indifferent. And now... this? I'm sorry, but in my judgement, taking away even the joy and escape of music from such a hurting people, is evil.
In my opinion, the RIAA and the US Government should do the exact opposite. Impose on Ukraine, and all other impoverished nations, a moratorium on copyright inringement enforcement. When the economies recuperate, and approach decent western levels of development, where Windows 2k doesn't cost half a year's salary, then impose those restrictions.
To the USA, there are no people, no humans, and no human rights. There are only consumers. I am a firm believer in democracy and capitalism, but this has gone too far.
my 2 kopecks.
What we have here, gentlemen... is a CD-Gap!
Humorless sig goes here.
Sounds interesting, but I'm not sure what do you mean by this.
1) Off-shore programming in Ukraine is neglible, if you compare it with a giant like India.
2) The ukrainian programmers working in the US are highly professional, but they are not really cheap. All ukrainian software engineers I know have 6 figure salary. I don't think there is much competition on this level. And again, the number of programmers from Ukraine is 10 times less than number of programmers from China or India.
Minor nitpick: we're not dumb enough to go to war over something as stupid as IP. We'll first invent some flimsy excuse and then demonize the other country's leaders, THEN we'll go to war.
What do you want to fight over? George Bush Sr.'s oil well's in Kuwait just got taken over or the evil Saddam Hussein is invading poor tiny Kuwait? Noriega isn't following CIA orders like a good puppet dictator or American sailors were brutally murdered by evil Panamanian forces?
We'll believe whatever the TV tells us, as long as they're telling us that the other side is TRULY evil.
[o]_O
I hope the Ukranians and the rest of the world realize that many Americans do not support the actions of our government and its sponsoring corporations. We live under an oppressive regime that is, at present, focusing more of its energies on oppressing foreign nations, instead of its own citizens.
At the same time, we are supposed to believe that the WTO is all about "Free Trade". Clearly, the WTO is for "Free Trade" in the sense that it is against people democratically limiting the rights of large corporations, but when it comes to people democratically refusing to restrict the rights of people despite threats from large corporations, the WTO again sides with the large corporations.
It kinda makes you think maybe they are really just for large corporations. And "free" trade isn't really "free" as in beer or "free" as in speech. It's more "free" as in "do as you're told and you won't get this nightstick rammed up your ass".
A law by itself, is rarely effective. It's the enforcement of the law that can make things work. Sure, 20 laws on anti-piracy measures can pass in any given country, I am just wondering how would they go around about enforcing them and actually making them work.
This will show the Americans that we are serious about piracy. :-)
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
"Corporations still have much less rights than a person. We can start with voting rights...."
HAHAHA. Why would then need to *vote* when they can just buy legislation no matter who's in office?
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Ukraine is a country with major problems. It is still suffering from the aftermath of Chernobyl. Privatization efforts have failed. And it is being ruled by an anti-democratic, authoritarian president who quite possibly has
ordered the murder of journalists
And what kind of response do they get from the international community? Never mind help in promoting more political or economic reform, just please the media conglomerates.
Free Trade between nations is a fairly recent thing (and a good idea, but that's another issue). The U.S. is telling Ukraine that unless Ukraine behaves in the modern manner (not pirating intellectual property), the U.S. will not allow Ukrain to make some of its export wihout or with low tarriff, but instead must pay tarriffs (as has been traditionally required). That's it.
That tariffs hurt the receiving country more then the shipping country, or at least more than is collected, is another economics issue entirely
hawk
Looking at both the State Dept and the CIA, they show a short name "North Korea", and the official name "The People's Democratic Republic of Korea".
But looking at the ISO page you reference, it shows "Ukraine" and not "The Ukraine" (and only Korea, since this page has only official short names).
Thank you for the reference to the ISO standard on country names. I've never seen it, but I'm sure I will use it in the future.
This is just pure plain muddle-headed thinking. What you call "greed" that drives people to get up in the morning, other people call "responsibility", "zest for life" and "drive".
Exactly. I don't doubt that DC will wag the dog as much as necessary to fool the public. I was definatly talking about the real reason, not the offical one.
Actually this statment shows just how far the dual FCC/Copyright monopoly has brought most people from the truth.
Side note (diverging)
Maybe the FCC should require that all TV broadcasts be without copright. Its our airwaves so it should be our content(whos the pirate in that light.) That alone would give the truth a fighting chance. I would say shortening copright length would fix things (a superior solution) but that won't stand a chance in the congress either. Not that I think this or any other reform stands a chance in the USA. Not till soft money stops. It's not even clear that soft money will stop, since it took fifteen years to stop in the thirties and then you could drag individuals through the mud rather than the totaly ambiguous party corruption. Perhaps MCCain was our last chance.
I'm not even what to do to fix this damn country. We can't even tell people it's broken unless Time/Warner says it's OK
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
Yes, greed is good for the economy and thus everyone living here. But don't fool yourself into thinking greed only becomes a problem in the presence of a powerful fed - it's a contributing factor to be sure, but I think it's more complex than that.
The people have been lulled into complacency by our easy lifestyle and corporate culture, and no longer hold corporations accountable for their actions. The people who care aren't numorous enough to make a difference (Slashdot boycotts, anyone?). The Fed's passive role is more damaging than its active role, allowing people to get away with things that they shouldn't be able to. Who in the federal government cares if Corporation X poisons Small Town Y's water?
I assert that instead of reducing the power of government as a whole, shifting power to local governments will increase corporate accountability. This must be coupled with true federal regulation of interstate commerce, to prevent local governments from bribing large corporations with tax incentives, lax environmental regulations, etc, and to keep corporations from demanding said bribes. This is akin to extortion, and recently happened here in Oregon, with Intel asking for special favors from the state to make it worth their while to build a new plant here rather than some other state that would be more accomodating to their bottom line. Hypothetically speaking, people shouldn't be forced to choose between jobs and safe water.
...that Ukraine is not an American colony, subject to our laws until they decide to declare independance.
Still, I agree with the point that you make.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
I lived in Ukraine for a year and have visited there several times, including recently.
Yes, I've bought a lot of cheap CD's, but believe it or not very few American CD's. The Russian/Ukrainian CD's come with license stickers, so I suspect they are legit.
The big problem is not with entertainment CD. Yes, there are pirated videos everywhere, but the dubbing is usually terrible. While a lot of foreign CD's are probably pirated, again, they are not a lot of sales, if you look at it from an international perspective.
The real problem is with software piracy, which is a big problem. Many legit businesses use pirated copies of Windows and other expensive applications, but there is widespread acknowledgement that there is a problem. Also, there is a pervasive fear among businessmen of "inspectors" coming and finding unlicensed software. Mention the word "inspector" to businesses or schools, and you will strike the fear of God in people. Perhaps the enforcement of software licenses is lackadaisical at best, but the medium to large firms are probably unwilling to risk being caught with unlicensed software.
Yes, it's probably true that a lot of offices for small companies have illegal copies of Office and Windows, but the bigger companies have more incentive to comply.
I should mention also that the "culture of piracy" persists in America almost as much as in Ukraine. It's a little disingenuous of the US government to single Ukraine out for such treatment.
Robert Nagle, idiotprogrammer, Austin, Texas
idiotprogrammer
Robert Nagle, Idiotprogrammer, Houston
I was just in Kiev for the past two weeks. Intellectual Property as a concept is non-existant in Ukraine. The bazars are filled with every imaginable piece of software on CD-ROM at the stunningly low price of 10 grivnas (about $1.80US) for everything. A CD my have Lightwave, 3D-Studio Max and other software or it might just have one piece. Either way it costs the same.
I bought "The Lord of the Rings" on VHS for my brother as a gag gift. It is in PAL and also in Russian so he can't play it and if he did he couldn't understand it. I did watch it while I was there and the translation was horrible. The title was translated as "Owner of the Ring"! and the translator not only translated the dialog, he gave commentary!!!
Ukraine was receiving $82 million a year in aid. Because of their very backward stance on Intellectual Property (sorry Stallman fans, IP is an important cornerstone to any advanced socieity) and also because of terrible corruption in the government (they suppress the free press by threatening the printing pressesses and by assasinating some journalists among other evils) it has been lowered to just $52 million a year. A big jump. However there is no reason why, as a US citizen, my tax dollars should go to Ukranians. I think if their government was more responsible I would be very glad to see some of my money flow into it.
The situation in Ukraine is a good one. They are getting their economy back on track -- they just need to come into the 21st century with respect for IP and the government needs to be more responsible. I loved the people there and I liked Kiev a lot. The worst thing I can say about it is that the water is totally tainted with giardia (I witnessed this first hand unfortunately).
P.S. : Don't try and smuggle back CD's or VHS tapes like I did. I found out you risk imprisonment and fines that are outrageous.
Wow you pegged my flaim bait meter.
Accusations=5
Logical method=.3
Facts=.1
A/(L+F)=12.5
Ideally A/LF should equal one or lower. I may not be perfect but at least I never broke ten before.
Time/Warner? You must be watching CNN. Hence the left-wing anti-free-speech stance. Grow up and watch Fox."
You think you can trust that more? Bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha he he snarf.
Other than occational observations I find all tv media to be simplistic and slanted. I am not right or left, I think they are both asking the wrong questions and fighting on the wrong issues. For instance I look at abortion they fight over life vs right to choose. The question should be "What charitaristics of our humanity, define life as worth protecting?", and "could this law be used as a social tool, who benifits and who gets hurt?" like most things of importance, the devil is in the details.
"Such "reforms" mean nothing less than destroying the heart and intent of the 1st Amendment by censoring political speech. As long as there is some respect for civil liberties, such outrageous reforms will always fail."
I don't what to do with this. I'm not even sure we are having the same conversation.
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
Did you even read the article? You claim you want "Big Brother to butt out", and want people to be free "to make their own choices", then why the hell do you support the WTO when it is being used to force Big Brother to "butt in" and ensuring the Ukrainian people can only make the choices that the big music corporations want them to make.
To paraphrase you: if music corporations don't like CDs that aren't registered with the government, then they shouldn't use them, but they should keep their fascistic "only the RIAA can decide" laws out of it; let each person choose.
And if the WTO truly stood for free trade, the U.S. government would be punished for threatening the Ukraine with trade sanctions. After all, if I want to buy shoes made in the Ukraine, why should I be forced by the U.S. government to pay more, just because some big music companies want to force laws on the Ukrainian people -- laws that they don't want.
Next time, read the article and use your brain before posting nonsense like this.
Just in case you still don't get it. The music corporations have lobbied the U.S. government to threaten trade sanctions against Ukraine. Meanwhile, if the Ukrainian government refuses to enact a new Big Brother law written by the music corporations, they will not be allowed in the WTO. Clearly you have music corporations, the U.S. government, and the WTO on the side of Big Brother laws and trade sanctions, and the Ukrainian people on the side of free trade.
Now please explain to me why you think the music corporations, the U.S. government, and the WTO really support free trade, while presumably the Ukrainians are the bad Big Brother guys for not wanting to submit to some stupid law written by the music corporations.
Let me start by saying that there's no way anybody is going to buy software that costs the same as it costs here in US (some do buy of course, mostly big companies). The average monthly salary even in Moscow is $100, most of it gets spent on food (which is definitly better than in US though).
:)
So, the piracy is big. 95-99%.
The CDs cost $2 per CD (no difference what's on it). Most CDs are factory manufactured i.e. made in large quantities, but not anywhere on the territory of former USSR. With current price of CD-R media some are made on CD-R equipment.
Now, the enforcement. Let's start with Moscow.
The markets where the CDs are sold are sometimes raided by police. But selling is not criminal ofence as fas as I know.
Nobody checks computers at home, of course.
The installed software is checked in computer clubs (internet cafes) and offices. If software product (games for example) has russian distributor there's high probability you will have problems. They (police) also take your computers normally
In Ukraine, as far sa I know, it's even tougher. Recently (last couple of months) it came to the point that the demand for Windows became so high that you have to get on the list to buy it, and the price went up.
"Perhaps MCCain was our last chance."
Do we know for sure that he's not going to run again?
[o]_O
I'm quite aware of all the suffering in Ukraine's history. Some of my family is counted in the death toll of the Soviet regime. My previous post was merely to illustrate to people how dire the present economic situation is in Ukraine. Going into detail about the abuses Ukraine has recieved from foreign powers is a good topic for a book, not a short post regarding economic situation.
However, in the decade before the collapse, the average Ukrainian population was far closer in standard of life to the US than it is now, human rights excepted.
I urge anyone reading this, to do a web search, or pick up a history of 20th century Ukraine. (Preferably not printed in Moscow.) Ukraine is an economic and social basket case, and in dire need of assistance, yet, the people are intelligent, hard working, cultured Europeans who just want see the fruits of working hard their entire lives. They freely gave up their nuclear weapons, because they want to live in peace with the world. They deserve the USA's respect, friendship, and any reasonable help to get on track. These sanctions are nuts.
My 2 kopicks.
Targetted corporate welfare anyone? Let's see, mega-corp one gives generous donations to senators and political parties. Said parties and senators decide, 'Oh the good folks at Microsoft need a tax break or the whole company will go out of business' and give them one. While Smokey Joe's Software Shack didn't pony up and they get no tax break. Is the gov't altering the workplace rules to tilt against Smokey Joe in favor of Microsoft? Yes.
On a side note, I'm all in favor of letting PEOPLE keep what they own. Corporations are not 'people', they're legal fictions. If you're handing out tax breaks, hand one to me, not the company I work for.
This is the first good use I've ever seen of the WTO. Mega-corps don't need tax breaks. If they go under, wonderful, that's what a free market's all about. Governments should not be favoring one company over another competing one because of campaign contributions, but never before has there existed a mechanism to enforce this principle.
According to Stratfor's analysis (which I tend to agree with on this issue), this trade dispute is, if anything, a sign of the warming ties between Russia and the US than anything else. Russia would rather be the best friend of all the CIS members, and until this bucket of cold water was thrown on the relationship, the Ukraine was getting pretty buddy-buddy with the US. This was done more for the sake of making Russia feel better about itself than any real demand from the likes of Valenti.
It should be pointed out that the Ukranian President (Kuchma) said the outrage in his parliment was rediculous and that if it were the other way around the Ukranians would do the same thing. He sided with the U.S. and said his own congress had not a leg to stand on. The U.S. isn't evil.
indeed it will be too hard
;)
I live in Moscow. You dont even have to go to the flea market to get warez as in downtown CD kiosks and newsstands are placed every 200 feet or so. Usually there is a choice from about 50 to more than 300 warez disks, and/or few dozen to a couple of hundred DivX cds (finally! excellent quality movies that cost $3 and take 10 minutes to copy perfectly!) and/or about the same number of MP3 cds. MP3 collections are especially nice, they are obviously compiled by collectors. It's a marvel if you love music - you can buy _complete_ Coltrane on 5 cds ($15), rarities, bootlegs and imports included.
Now you can understand why I prefer to live in Moscow despite all the job offers from US
BTW, the situation in Kiev (I grew up there and visit my parents quite often) is almost exactly the same, only the prices are slightly lower.
Actually, it looks like we have a perfect cd distribution system. The pirates respond to market demand very quickly; there's big competition between them. What's really surprising is that they print quite a lot of non-pop, e.g. I bought a number of John McLaughlin cds (that are _NOT_ in stock in local licensed cd stores) from a newsstand pile next to usual Enrique Iglesias crap. I do feel mildly guilty as he probably gets something like $1 for every cd sold, so I owe this brilliant musician about $30 and have to find a way to send these monies to him.
------------------------ Optimists learn English; pessimists learn Chinese; realists learn Kalashnikov
Thanks for pointing out facts to the previous troll. Normally it's not good to respond to trolls, but the lies in many of these trolls are believed by many Russians, and need to be dis-spelled. It's a hold-over from the Communist era, when that was all that was taught in their schools.
The average wage there is between $30 and $100 USD per month.
Chechens are freedom fighters, who have more justification to fight thier opressors than George Washington ever did. Russia, the "Evil Empire" still opresses countries who are weak, like Chechnya. But now Russia is the USA's friend, so can do no wrong.
Amazing how things change. If this was 15 years ago, any US Offical would have said that Russian occupation of Chechnya was illegal, and the Chechens had all the right to fight. I wouldn't be surprised some of the US millitary help for Afghanistan against the USSR made it's way to Chechnya.
Once again the USA turns its back on people fighting for freedom, because of it's own interest.
Sick.
Just substitute the word "Romans" every time you see Americans, and you will get a real kick out of it. It takes politics back about 2000 years... same old stuff, new circumstances.
It makes me laugh thinking about it.
Whoops. There went my Karma.
So why would they care about trying to turn a profit in the Ukraine anyway? If people are making that little money, it seems pointless to try to sell them anything that they don't need to survive.
The President of the USA was reportedly aghast at the decision, especially when he reviewed the Ukraine City Window. "Don't they realise all those Unhappy People will lower the morale of my Republic?! I'll have to switch to a Monarchy or face civil war! And good grief, they're surrounded by Barbarians, they'll rob my Treasury blind when they capture the city!"
I'll agree that shifting power to local governments is important because it increases an individual's choice in where they want to live. However, I also feel that the government as it stands today wields far too much power. Power corrupts. People fail, and whims are no way to make law.
I trust only one person to run my life: Me.
P.S. : Don't try and smuggle back CD's or VHS tapes like I did. I found out you risk imprisonment and fines that are outrageous.
...
Coming back from St. Petersburg to Tokyo once, I had my bag opened by customs - sitting on top was a couple of CDs that I bought at a kiosk - "Red Hat's greatest hits" and "CPAN Archive" or some such. Without a word, the customs inspector removed them, tossed them in the contraband bin and closed my suitcase. I considered trying to explain that they were perfectly legal, but didn't
-- My Weblog.
Perhaps our working definitions of greed differ? To me, greed is merely enlightened self interest taken to a comfortable maxima. To you, perhaps greed is self interest taken to far too much extreme, with little attempt at enlightenment.
Actually, I argue that your definition of greed doesn't really exist. You see, if you take greed to such an extreme that you harm others in "benefiting" yourself, you'll wind up hurting yourself in the long run. Basically I feel that maximized self interest has to be informed and intelligent enough to realize that others are also important. Knocking over an old lady to get the $20 in her purse would be "stupid and foolish" as opposed to "greedy".
To the moderator who moderated this while scratching your head with the thinking hat off: please explain. Don't moderate becuase you disagree, moron.
Start thinking of a general boycott of the U.S by the rest of the world. It won't happen yet, but it's looking like it might have to happen soon. What's the U.S. going to do? Impose sanctions on EVERYONE? Just like unions make workers strong, I think a united front against U.S. bullying may be appropriate.
$1-2 for any CD i want )) dinamo kiev is the best )
"Actually I voted for Nader"
"He was far worse. Erasure of the 1st Amendment by making it so only the government can do political speech."
Could you be more specific. Which policy was this?
Not to mention Nader's grandiose and greedy scheme to insert the government into many more aspects of our private lives. A vote for Nader is a vote for ultrafascism, pure and simple.
Fashisism? Socialism reform maybe, but I seriously doubt Nader would ever start a military campain he absolutly didn't have to. Monarchies of that nature burn out pretty quick without war. I think you would have impressed me more by calling him a communist. I think his reform would be more towards beating up industries with a high profit margin and little care outside their own needs. I saw him speak on Microsoft, he has an understanding of underhanded tactics few politicians openly do.
" Nader represents the interest of 1% of the people, fortunately."
We will never know as long as the Democrats and Republicans run the debates as a bipartisan event. I am very weary of party politics in this age of unlimmited party contributions.
Just for the record I think Nader is a bit of a kook. I can't imagine him as a great commander and chief, nor can I see him as being slick enough to lie for our country when neccessary. I went a green party meeting just for kicks and was just a bit weirded out.
Stopping unlimmited "donations" (see bribes) is important enough to elect some who is not well rounded. If I feel this way, others likely do to. It's actually kind of scary.
"Wow you pegged my flaim bait meter. Facts=.1"
" I did have the facts on this one. The so-called "campaign finance reforms" attempt to censor unwanted political speech either by banning it directly or indirectly by attacking funding. No wonder the ACLU (which unfortunately happens to favor government control of campaigns) does not like them because of this."
If you believe that speech==money crap then perhaps I am wasting my time. Right now companies can buy laws at will. I'd give you examples in your favorite area, if you would let me know what that is.
The ACLU is not exactly my favorite right now, they are ignoring copyright/software/Internet issues way to much. I am not about government control of campains, I am about limiting corperate financial influence on lawmaking by matching personal donations and lowering the bar for assistance for third party candidates. Nader won the election for Bush and yet still won't recieve funding next election (if he runs.) thats nuts. Oh and from the senate hearings on the Mccain Fiengold bill I think x free hours advertising for candidates on broadcast anything would greatly reduce the money chase.
"You think you can trust that more [Fox] ? Bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha he he snarf."
"Yes, because it is less biased, and more accurate when compared to other sources."
That is probably true. It dosn't mean that it is unbiased enough or all the time. My favorites are NYTimes, USNews and World Reports, NPR, and Lehrer news hour. and a slew of online sources. Any one source or type of news source is unreliable. They have interests too, and Fox has plenty of interests. Consider the sources parent.
"I am not right or left"
"Yet you chose a far-left candidate."
Yea and I though Gulianni was great too. Aren't republicans usually considered the right?
"I don't what to do with this. I'm not even sure we are having the same conversation. "
" Just think with a critical mind when it comes to so called "reforms" that censor political speech of everyone except for the government, incumbents, and "the media"."
I do think, often. I need you to be more specific. Spell it out for us. What do you consider political speech and how do these people/parites/comments I made earlier threaten it?
Could you tell us a little more about yourself AC? Perhaps you could create an account?
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
this is not Poland, you know. :-)
I'm a Nevadan. We took the 55 to the Supreme Court. While it was waiting for oral arguments, our spineless Attorney General accepted the 65 as a win, and ruined his career by dropping the matter.
hawk