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China Orders E-Mail Screening
Greyfox writes: "According to this CNN article, China has ordered Internet providers to screen users' E-mails for subversive statements. See how fascist governments control the flow of information? Aren't you glad our government doesn't do this? Oh... Wait..."
This is no different from screening snail mail, and China has been doing that for years. Things like this happen frequently in communist countries. This is no surprise to me.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
When you mean what China means by "communist" it's the same thing.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Well, at worst it is only consistent with their general policy of internet filtering/censorship. If they have their "Great firewall of China" this is a logical extension of that firewall.
At least he wrote "fascist" and not "facist" (which is more likely actually)
Considering the number of relays in orbz and ordb that are out of the 210 and 211 sub-class A blocks i would think that perhaps this might be a good thing, in so far as the mail relays getting closed up
;)
Since a majority of that "subversive" text being bounced off of them are for "american get rich way of life" propaganda
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
I am teaching myself Navaho!
` The new rules include a long list of banned content prohibiting
writings that reveal state secrets, hurt China's reputation or
advocate the overthrow of communism, ethnic separatism or "evil
cults."'
Surely, the government wouldn't want anyone to overthrow ethnic separatism or evil cults...
Oh, wait.
Here, we get things like Carnivore and promises that they'll only be used with warrants. Or to catch mobsters. Or terrorists. Honest.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Quite correct.
Although we can debate if they are really communists, they aren't fascists.
China is to the far left, the extreme. Fascists are the extreme to the right.
Are they communists? They can't be because they haven't reached that point where 'everyone knows your name'... I mean 'everyone gets the same'.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Now thanks to Red Flag Linux, filtering the thoughts of your citizens is cheaper and more reliable than ever!
Back in the day, you'd have to pay Microsoft big bucks to squelch dissenting opinions and always had to worry that radicals spreading Western ideals would be able to exploit OS vulnerabilities and cause trouble. Not any more!
I wonder if China will GPL their filtering software?
(By the way, I'm not being down on Linux. I'm just dismayed at the irony of a government using one of the most free [as in liberty] operating systems to actually reduce freedom.)
Fascists practice facism : ;aj
fas.cism \'fash-.iz-*m, 'fas-.iz-\ \-*st\ \fa-'shis-tik also -'sis-\
\-ti-k(*-)le-\ n [It fascismo, fr. fascio bundle, fasces, group, fr. L
fascis]bundle & fasces fasces 1: the body of principles held by Fascisti 2:
a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and race and
stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial
leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression
of opposition - fas.cist nor
China is a *communist* country, not fascist. Please, try to get it right. The left you love and adore is equally capable of crushing human rights. Numerous examples abound - look at the media's darling Castro - Cubans die of old age and malnutrition in jail for having dared to speak against the socialist regime in place there. Political extremes, right or left, are indistinguishable to the man in the street, both crush all liberty.
In my opinion, the political spectrum is really sort of circular. Once you go so far left or so far right you just end up at a meeting point. For instance, I don't see too much difference between Hitler and Stalin.
I happen to live in China, and I'll eat my hat if they haven't scanned every email that I've sent which didn't go through this IP tunnel, ever since I moved here years ago.... Maybe the real news is that they are making the ISP's do the work for them? Or is it that they aren't pretending not to invade privacy anymore?
Do any readers here actually believe that snail mail to and from China is any less scrutinized than email will be? My sister lived and taught in China for a couple of years (we are Americans). Letters and packages I sent to her were routinely opened and inspected before they were delivered to her. I can safely assume that if she and I had access to email at the time, those correspondences would have been equally intercepted and reviewed as well.
...that goes if you say JFK or some sort of keyword a tape recorder in Langley comes on. That was pure bullshit, and someone about a month ago tried to convince me that it was true. Don't people realize the computing power that is needed to do such a thing! This hoax at least goes back to the 80's. Like everyone in the telco industry would need to be in on it, and someone would have leaked it all.
But this, is likely not a hoax. I'm sure they are doing it. But I won't read the CNN article because they are so [left/right] wing. They can't pick which side they want to distort, almost like they depend on which demographic is watching.
I guess for the gov't this becomes a great tool for watching the citizens. If they act on the information is one thing. But we just watch people who we suspect [MLK Jr], the Chinese have got a one up since they can watch everyone at once.
Attached [in a reply] is an e-mail I like to send to myself every now and then. Then I watch for that white van that parks in front of my house.
Get your Unix fortune now!
All govt. is evil. Not having govt. is evil. You make a compromise between one evil and another, and you decide which evil you prefer. (Using a traditional Western definition of "evil.") That's the way most people see it.
BTW, all governments fall eventually. Maybe not in your lifetime, but they have all fallen in the past and there is no reason to believe that trend will not continue into the future. Heck, some govts fall so often that we don't bother to count.
Just be sure to wear the gold uniform when you beam down -- you know what happens when you wear the red one.
and we are sliding down it at breakneck speed.
Offered for your Fascist consideration...
o- Asset forfeiture of people who have not even been convicted of a crime.
o- FBI breaking and entering and placing keyboard sniffers on someone's PC to snag their PGP key without their knowledge.
o- Carnivore (as you so well alluded).
o- Magic Lantern
o- Linking of state's driver's license databases to provide the equivilant of a National ID Card.
o- Ubiquitous surveillance cameras in public places.
The US government, federal and local law enforcement want to control YOU!
JFK's bush deads' ghost killed MLK or martin LUTHER KiNG.
we all know this service is fucking fake and there is no such
thingasprivacy MONEY LAUNDER-MUTHER FOCKER00-00-00 PIN: ASSASINATE
the fourth admendment amendment CLINTON GORE AND A ANGEL OF SATAN GEORGE
BUSH IS A MUTHER FUCKOR - "in the middle of indiana there is a place 200
feet underground with mainframe computers and 20 tones of mainframe
computers and that was in 1970 " what about now what about the kids? the
government is a child molester- its a whore and its a bomb waiting to blow
up - but now it's in a HIGH SCHOOL! the bomb the american BUSH government
NADER is planted is in a school! its in the ghetto and now it's even on
the steps of their own federal building
Races in CInCinnSINcinnati- are being profiled and lined up "TO KILL THE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES" and killed by the police who work for them
"THE HARD WORKING UNDERCLASS OF AMERICA" who don't care "WANT TO KILL THE
POLICE" who they work for - they are their own gang "I and the gangs want
to kill the police" we all want the police to stop killing us in the
streets -we want people to stop reading our EMAIL our email
I KILLED JFK IT WAsN'T the NSA-FBI-DEA-FDA-ADA-CLINTON-or MLK or EVEN
LBJ!? THEY ALL DIED AND WAS reborn with christ when abe lincoln took it in
the back by AMERICA and the soviets in vietnam - the police action to end
all police actions
POLICE=US GOV'T+RICH bush W GEORgEieieiei + CAMPAIGN FUNDS + THE MoB
FUCKING SHIT I HATE THE PEOPLE WHO READ MY E_MAIL AOL-TIMEWARNER I LOVE
ROAD RUNNER- IT SUCKS MY BALLS PORNO
Get your Unix fortune now!
That's a pretty sophisticated argument you have going there: "Chinese Communism = Evil." Look at the diversity in the number of ethnic groups, religions, and even languages; the sheer number of people living in China, etc... China has arguably done very well with their "communist yok."
The Europeans seem to have a view of US human rights and foreign policy as being quite shady, and many mid-Easterns view the US as being dowright evil.
"Evil" seems to be a relative concept. There are plenty of right-wingers living in the US who would just as soon burn the Constitution, and it is already starting to smolder after the Sept. "attacks."
Those that suggest you "dance like no one is watching" really want to see you make a complete fool of yourself.
No, there's a BIG difference between what the USA and China does, and you would know that if you would have read the article. What you just said states your massive liberal bias that is found on the majority of this site. Such things that are not allowed in China's emails include violence or pornography. By the way, here's a more informative article: http://www.ananova.com/yournews/story/sm_498876.ht ml
Such things that are outlawed include "Outlawed writings include any that reveal state secrets, feature pornography and violence or advocate cults."
See the difference there? Thank you.
Whereas the American government reads a lot (some say 90%) of internet traffic with it's "it doesn't exist, honest" system, Echelon. And then there's the one it does admit, Carnivore. And there the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act.
"See how fascist governments control the flow of information? Aren't you glad our government doesn't do this? Oh... Wait..."
The difference is that China doesn't try to hide the fact that they screen e-mails. They tell everyone that they will monitor their e-mails and people can decide what to say based on that. The US is much more secretive about it.
Or maybe troll... I know I wouldn't have posted if the submitter hadn't added that last comment.
No one legitimately gripes about China because they have jails, searches, etc.
They do it because it can be done without due process. For all your bitching, the fact that you can even complain about the Federal government aloud without fear of being investigated shows how meaningless the statement was.
Of course our system isn't perfect - but nothing is. But saying if you get pushed and if you get shot in the head is the same thing won't get anywhere.
********************
I object to Intellect without Discipline.
In Fact, many governments since WWII and before have incorporated features of fascist and communist government into their structure, although this has been done on a much slower time table than a war or revolution. There is much in both of the philosophiea to attract the petty autocract, the aspiring master of men. And over the years, these have been incorporated into laws.
heck, for decades, you had nazis, for example, acting as advisor to many governments. The most benign of these was a character like Von Braun in the Space Program, former scientist of the V-2 program.
There were many from many fields who lived and breathed and believed the original fascist philosophy, and who continued on in their fields. Some areas would be more problematic than others. Jobs like farmers and dentisits would be one thing, probably benign. Business managers would be another. Law enforcement, lawyers, doctors, and mental health specialists yet another, because of the influence on society. The vast majority were never arrested or put on trial.
The end result is that elements of these philosophies have been incorporated into laws around the world, through the influence of these, their sympathisers, and the children they raised, who probably did not know what the philosophy really meant, and absorbed the ideas under the guise of parental instruction.
and so the monitoring of private communications like email, while at the same time passing laws that make the majority of citizens criminals is commonplace.
As a Side Note: Heck you worry about Napster. Did you know that there is a whole online community of older women trading sewing patterns, sewing geeks who trade their files (sewing and knitting patterns) just like any other geeks do? and they are running into the same issues of trading that Napster did, but with the pattern publishers? a much smaller scale issue, of course. But involves people like the fabled Aunt Minnie. Go ahead, piss off grandma. see what happens ;-)
yet another example of an industry trying to achieve too much control over their customers, with all of the usual arguments in both directions.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I get loads of spam from China, or advertising Chinese websites.
Looks like sending the postmaster a note congratulating him on joining the Falun Gong might work well.
What difference does it make? Spying is spying and monitoring is monitoring. I just said that the Chinese are being up front about it, which they are. You don't know what the rules here are. Maybe there's an off-the-books federal database in some agency of people moving violent or pornographic material that you and I aren't aware of. Sounds a little conspiracy theorist, I admit, but how hard would it be for $THREE_LETTER_AGENCY to subvert a low level employee at the NOC of a major ISP (laundered through a "mafia" connection or somesuch, gotta have that deniability)?
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
The article says: Foreign software makers must now guarantee in writing that their products do not contain hidden programs that would allow spying or hacking into Chinese computers.
This spec would be useful for everyone's networks. Vendors who are accepted for use in China could advertise they met "the Chinese standard" for security.
Let's look at a definition of communism:
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
My money's on "fascist" not "communist" as a proper label for the Chinese government.
I totally agree with you. Extreme right, extreme left, whats the big difference...
Your extremist views pretty much negate any thoughful comment you had in that post, and that's a shame. There is a big difference that I pointed out in my original post. Email sent here in the USA does not have limitations on pornography (look at all the porn email now, although a lot of it constitutes spam), violence (unless it's a threat toward someone specific), or any idealogical/religous/cult thoughts. That isn't so in China. Sending a lot of emails we send here in the states would be illegal in China. Putting China's screening techniques on the same level as the USA's once again shows your liberal bias. Remember, it's easy coming up with complex conspiracy theories. Backing them up isn't so easy when they aren't true. That's the easy way out.
Other than the basic ideals that we all know [economy and control] of there is another difference between the right and left extremes we are speaking of.
Fascists [in doctrine] are to war with everyone in the world until only them, the supreme race/society is left, leaving a 'virtual' utopia for that superior state. The communists believe that the only war needed would be destroy the ones who oppose communism. Take WWII. If Hitler, the fascist, would have continued the war wouldn't have ever ended.
Communism though, is fascist in effect if you don't want to be a communist. In Critique of the Gotha Programme Marx says a communist state would only be needed to protect the communists... after this control wouldn't be needed anymore. The state would dissolve. So I guess we are the ones in the way of true communism.
Considering if they are all true communists, they wouldn't complain because all e-mail belongs to the state.
IMHO, our country [US] will be communism down the road. It's when you try to hurry it is when you cause problems. You need to let it evolve on its own.
Get your Unix fortune now!
You know what, I'm really getting sick of the bigotry that I see here on Slashdot. Anytime a story is posted based on our rights, department of justice, business, etc... there always has to be a flame aimed towards the United States of America. I'm assuming most of the readers here have mostly a leftist view on most political issues, and that's absolutely fine.
But what about the conservatives who read Slashdot? What about us? How do the people who read Slashdot with a right winged attitude feel about biased comments that contain negativity, and to some of us, a fallacy (sp?) towards our government, economy, policies, etc...
Comments as well (I'm posting this anonymously for a reason). Whenever I post a comment that will go against something I read in an article that will have a conservative view to it, maybe 75-80% of time time it will get modded down to -1 (52 posts, no flames, Karma 2, you do the math). Whatever happened to getting 2, 3, 4, everyone's side of the story?
The moderation system on slashdot is awful and wrong. Using an analogy of a hostile government. If I say anything remotely conservative, I will get modded down. Hmm... seems fair enough.
I know the editors will not read this comment, nor will anyone who read this care, but I hope that anyone who does read this post will maybe understand that sometimes you should take into consideration other people's ideas and thoughts and not just have a one track mind and think that whatever Slashdot rights is legitimacy
--Anon
If you just encrypt your email then screening would be harder.
Does the new law prevent the usage of PGP?
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Precisely. They're telling their people that they'll be sniffing their traffic, while our government made tools in secret (as well as they could) to do it, without technical controls to prohibit their use without a lawful warrant, and supported legislation untying their hands from all that messy "warrant" business.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
No search warrant needed. In the US or in the UK.
Visions of grannies saying "the patterns want to be free" come to mind. ;-)
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
It's pretty easy to "win" in a discussion by calling the other guy an extremist too, you know.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
When laws are passed that practically allow the FBI to print their own warrants, the protection that requiring a warrant offers sort of evaporates. The reason that requiring a warrant has (previously) been thought of as sufficient protection is because the cops need quite a bit of evidence to convince a judge to grant them a warrant. If they can get a warrant anytime they want, how is this any better than them legally surveilling you anytime they want or all the time, anyway?
Liberty in your lifetime
I'm sorry if your views are extremist. I didn't write it. I was pointing out how you were wrong by merely quoting facts I read in the article. Read the article please.
All governments are Evil, get over it. Without governments who would be able to put a little "evil" in this life, who???
BTW, my girlfriend just bought this really advanced BERNINA machine (I think that's the one), which can connect to a computer's serial port. It needs a windoze OS, and there is never going to be a windoze OS on any of my machines (and except for this, she's cool about that).
Anybody know of any hacks that has been done on the BERNINA machines? It would be great if we could use it with Linux.
I suggested she drop BERNINA an e-mail asking for specs, and if they didn't give her the specs, start reverse engineering the thing. After all, she's the one who is an electronics student, I'm just an astronomer.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
No, you called me an extremist. That's not a reasoned argument. Let's just quit pretending it is.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
What? Them telling people about it has nothing to do with the actual point they are trying to make. They want to prosecute people based on pornograpgy, violence, or cult/religous thoughts. How you make a parallel between China and the USA in that regard is beyond me.
The parallel isn't in the specific actions they're taking--it's that they're taking them overtly. Whether they'd put someone in prison or shoot them for emailing a goatse.cx link or not is irrelevant to that point.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
It's completely revalent becuase that's the basis of them filtering the email.
I don't think the U.S. handles itself very well either. Don't assume you know what my opinion is. This thread was about china, not the U.S. If someone had posted an article about the U.S., then I would have responded with my opinion on that matter.
"Be true to yourself and you will never fall" - Beastie Boys http://tjhsst.edu/~crepetsk/lotr/page.php?id=1359
A High Ranking Navy Officer was scandalized here in Canada when it was found that he had used a Navy laptop to access porn. It wasn't quite email filtering, but they were monitoring the usage of the computer. I just want to point out that the people of China cannot choose their policies and laws. That we all know. So really, taking the two courses of action upon implementing email filtering, being upfront or not telling people, I think being upfront is cool.
You are merely complaining about what constitutes subversive material (our countries are notorious for turning away erotic lesbian and gay material if its high profile enough in the market, like an artsy book or whatnot) and the more restrictive morals set by the state. Like, sure, we all knew that! but between then government being upfront vs. the government letting 'subversives' get jailed with no warning, I think they did the right thing.
"Old man yells at systemd"
I agree, but think it naïve to think it's not happing in a "black" way. Let's both hope we don't get to the point where it can be done publicly.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Like it or not, privacy is not a fundamental provision of the Consititution. If you place your messages in the public domain (which is what you do whenever you send an E-mail over the Internet), don't be surprised when it is screened, read, etc., by either the government or anyone who happens to own the router that your message passes through.
If you wish to have privacy, then you must send your communications over a private, secure channel, which the Internet is not. For example, the U.S. Postal Service is an entity that sends information securely; you can rest assured that your letters will never pass through the hands of a third party. But if you transmit information by posting a postcard on a bulletic board, it is free to be read by anyone who passes by, including government law enforcement officials.
You can attempt to make your messages sent through the public Internet "private" by encrypting the messages (which is perfectly legal and will continue to remain legal as long as our government is a free government). But that does not GUARANTEE privacy.
There is a general mistrust of government in general in this forum, which is sad. While I agree that the size and scope of government should be kept to a minimum, we should be able to trust the elected officials in a republican system, since we choose who our representatives will be. And we should certainly trust the executive branch (the ones actually screening the public E-mails) to do what they need to enforce the laws our elected representatives pass. If they aren't, then the people should vote accordingly for representatives that will fix the problem.
And despite what most people think, law enforcement officials are WAY to busy to concern themselves with the details of your private life. They are only concerned for the information that will help them protect the public from criminals.
An unjust law is no law at all. - St. Augustine
As opposed to a basis consisting of, say, communications to Al Qa'ida, which would be interpreted as just as much of a threat to our state as China considers porn and violent matter to theirs?
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
They aren't mutally exclusive, I don't think there is a any "pure" economic or political system in place.
> I tend to think that keeping the government out of private communication is a conservative value, the subversion of that term by the party in office notwithstanding. Very true, anyone who has takein a 12 grade US government should know that republicans (conservatives) are pro 'small government.' Having a government agengy sift through all communications is hardly a 'small government' quality.
But i do agree with most of the original posters comments, people who take 'civil rights/liberties' too far really need to step back and look.
"Obscenity is the crutch of the inarticulate motherfucker." - cloak42
It just makes things easier.
I'm not an American but anyway, communism can not happen on a large scale (say more than 1000 for 200 years) because people don't want to be equal; they want to be better than the average. Better off, better house, better pay etc. I can't see this basic, evolution-wired, desire ever changing.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Becuase that terrorist organization killed 3000 people in 30 minutes. It's a national threat becuase of that. I don't believe that porn has caused death on such a massive scale no matter how you look at it. You are trying to rationalize your original thought with insane analogies that really do not add up.
And calling the analogy "insane" really doesn't make your argument credible. Are you going to call me a Communist next?
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
I love it how people are assuming that I'm pro-US. How many people died in China's great leap forward? How many attrocities were commited when China forced communism on Tibet? I guess it's allright for the govt. to put members of religious sects in special camps so they can re-educate them, because that's what they did to practitioners of Falun Gong. I'm not going to get started on what I think of the U.S. Suffice it to say, I think the govt. is taking advantage of 9-11 and they're not as hurt about the event as they would like us to think. You can't excuse one countries problems because another country screws up to. Would you like me to write a paper on my thoughts of China and send it to you? The Chinese govt. treads on human rights. There is no question about this. What the U.S. does has nothing to do with this. I think that China is a wonderful country full of beauty, and that beauty is being stifled by a communist govt.
"Be true to yourself and you will never fall" - Beastie Boys http://tjhsst.edu/~crepetsk/lotr/page.php?id=1359
See how fascist governments control the flow of information?
China is not a faciest government, they are a totalitarian government with communist roots.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
By the way, there is a big difference between protecting your citizens from death and protecting them from dissenting thought like China is doing. See the difference? Of course, I dont expect you to see it becuase you are blinded by your bias and radical thought/rationalization.
You see the difference. I see the difference. Does the Chinese government see the difference? Of course not. I don't expect you to see it because you are blinded by your bias and fascist thought/rationalization.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
If you don't believe in freedom of thought becuase it might endanger citizens based on some crazy thought of moral depravity, you should move to China and see how much you like it. Quit trying to rationalize their government's way of thinking. That's why most of their citizens live in poverty.
... huge!
Let's examine the doctrines to answer this question.
An extreme right would war on with opposing states to destroy them, and war wouldn't stop. Eventually the state, which is supreme, would turn inward to cleanse the public. Extreme right'rs believe that they are supreme for any number of reasons. Think of a King times 1000. Or even the state run by the Klan.
An extreme left would war with any states which oppose them. A state would be set up, and during a transition period that state would protect it's workers while taxes are increased to such a high rate. After this, and other states fall by their own demise, all the public would be equal. The state would dissolve when it comes to this point. The only thing the state would do is oversee the *correct* distribution of wealth.
I think that the 'circle' isn't there, but they meet in the middle the right way. Because of this, most of our western political systems seem to work well. We want freedom, possesions, but we want equal treatment under the law. Under fascism anyone deemed 'inferior' is destroyed. Under communism, everyone has the same rights, but nothing is unique. Neither system has truely been practiced on earth. At least not on a national scale. A 'commune' may work, and there are fascists walking around today trying to administer 'justice'.
Here is the political spectrum for your reference:
|Communism|Liberal|Center|Conservative|Fascist|
In fact, see my sig!
Get your Unix fortune now!
In the UK we have the Interception of Communications Act 1985 States quite clearly that a warrant is needed.
"(2) The Secretary of State shall not issue a warrant under this section unless he considers that the warrant is necessary--
EC.(a) in the interests of national security;
(b) for the purpose of preventing or detecting serious crime or;
(c) for the purpose of safeguarding the economic well being of the United Kingdom."
Ooh. I should leave the country now because I don't agree with you. Can you point out where I said that I agree with the Chinese government's way of thinking? Remember, this is all about the fact that China told their citizens that they're being monitored, and our government has yet to do so.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
They argue that the left-right is very simplistic, so they introduce "totalitarian" vs. "libertarian" as well. Of course it is better, but it still doesn't go a long way.
It's a test on the web site to help classify yourself. If I remember correctly, I got the score (-6, -6) which means rather leftist and rather libertarian.
Wonder what it would look like if you plotted all /.ers in there...
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
Anyways, I will not be responding to this thread anymore becuase my educated and factual responses are being responded to in a fashion by you in a fashion which is uneducated and rant-like. Thanks.
See how fascist governments control the flow of information? Aren't you glad our government doesn't do this?
Now, when most people think of fascism, they think of Hitler ranting at rallies. They think Panzers rolling over Poland and France. Fascism is actually much less "fundamentally evil".
Fascism, summed up, is a society which gives handouts to the rich. Government defines what should be produced (like during wars) and what is morally "right". Free speech exists, but with restrictions, etc. Effectively, the Government has a focus or direction. When you hear a politician say "our country should move in so and so direction", they're probably fascists.
We've had elements of fascism since inception, but since the Cold War, the size and power of the Federal Government has increased drastically, making us much more totalitarian in the process. The results are mixed, but overall positive since we're still pretty functional.
Right. At least have the decency to admit you don't have any more arguments. Of course, you can ignore this, since it's an "uneducated and rant-like" post. Thanks.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Anyway, I know I've repeated you a bit, because much of what you say is correct. But calling someone "fascist" is not "leftist name-calling" because fascism has NOTHING to do with leftism nor rightism. You say "China is a communist country, not fascist", which as fallacious. China is communist AND fascist. Perhaps you are the one who should try to get it right.
I can't believe the comment about our opressive government! Obviously you people have not studied oppression in history!
Clearly we must be vigilant in our maintenance of our freedoms, but to compare China with the US in terms of controlling information is simply demonstrating a lack of education.
Have you looked into what China did to US reporters during the Tiananmen square uprising? Contrast that with the US media in President Clinton's face demanding to know what exactly he had or had not done with "That woman, Miss Lewinsky."
The government having the capacity to screen emails at ISPs may be unpleasant to you. If so, encrypt your email. Carnivore _may_ be something that we need to stop, but it is NOTHING like the opression suffered by the people of the PRC.
Get off your self-righteous horse, and live under martial law at the hands of a despotic dictator for a while. Then come whining to me about "oppression" in the US.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
Or Tienemen Square? This just doesn't seem like such a big deal for that government to do something like that, being that they've done much worse. Let me give it some clarification. Millions of chinese practice tai-chi, and it is one of the government sanctioned religions (not actually a religion, more of an excercise program designed to increase spirituality). There are only a few sanctioned religions, and any other religion is outlawed. Falun Gong is the same type of thing as tai-chi, it is based around movements promoting spiritualism, but since it is not a government sanctioned religion, people that practice it get beaten, killed, put in prison with no trial, women have been raped by police, and followers have been put into mental hospitals, until they denounce the religion. So if you ask me, screening e-mail, what a joke of a post when talking about how evil china's government is. Oh yeah, and also what a joke comparing America's government to China, America's government may do some bad things, but they are no where near on par with China's.
This is a common misconception, often reinforced by conservatives themselves. Conservatives are "pro small government" if you, bizarrely, redefine government not to include law enforcement or national defense. Those two areas are considered perfectly legitimate and, indeed, generally expand considerably under conservative administrations.
It's disingenuous to say that conservatives are "freedom lovers" and liberals advocate state control. As far as I can see, the issue is where a person calls for state intervention. Liberals tend to believe that the economy should be regulated by the government and steered toward (what they see as) public goods. Conservatives of course feel that the government should stay out of the economy as far as possible and thus maximize the individual's economic liberty.
On the other hand, convservatives also tend to call for government oversight of behavior -- morally, sexually, legally, culturally -- and rely on the state to make sure people stay in line with "the norm". Liberals, in counterpoint, want to keep government out of the personal lives of its citizens and evidence a much lower drive to regulate the private actions of the people. In that sense, liberals are trying to maximize personal (or civil) liberty.
Of course both of these characterizations is overbroad. Virtually no one fits perfectly either label, and in recent years there's been a lot of diffusion back and forth across that divide. But I think it's a useful categorization scheme.
Also, in a typically American manner, the true way probably lies somewhere in between. The fount of personal liberty is economic liberty -- too much of our lives revolve around earning a living to disentangle choices made in business from choices made at home. Yet economic liberty without a corresponding freedom of conscience is empty and meaningless... such a system is pointless in the extreme. Further, as the Chinese are learning to their dismay -- following in the footsteps of the Soviet Union, which learned this lesson the hard way in the late 1980s -- you cannot have economic liberty (or its attendant efficiency) without creating overwhelming pressure for personal liberty.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
I already know you are anti-left from previous posts.
The thing is though... look at our history. We started as a right-wing gov't in all respects, but we are becoming more centralized, if not sliding to the left.
I think it's important to have both, but a careful balance of the two.
As far as Communism not working on the 'large scale'... people say the same stuff about capitalism.
I think we could become 'communists' but only through a slow, very slow, transition. We wouldn't even see it happening.
See, it's not a hard wired as you think. There is still a part that makes people want to put on the same level. It's the upper class who doesn't want to go down to a lower class. If by some way we could eliminate the lower classes then we could become 'equals'. Who is the great thinkers/leaders? Jesus, Ghandi, Marx? All people who advocate at least equal treatment.
I don't believe that we will some day become people with no possesions, that isn't a choice. But something will prevail that will look a lot like communism.
The problem with 'basic, evolution-wired' desires is that... you got it! It can evolve right away.
Get your Unix fortune now!
LOL. This is moral relativism at its worst. The US doesn't screen email, nor does it block "subversive" websites, and it certainly doesn't jail people for expressing "treasonous" political views. And here you people are trying to compare the US and China in terms of political freedom. I think I'm going to pass out laughig.
I really believe that states cannot be reasonably or usefully characterized as "rightist" or "leftist". At a minimum, two axes -- regulation of economic life and of personal life -- is needed.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Because if I sent an email saying "I think President Bush is doing a bad job." to someone, the secret police are going to bust in and put me in a labor camp.
More like 2,600 ? ... and George Bush (SR.) thought it was such a big deal that he not only refused to institute sanctions against China, but vetoed a bill that would have permitted Chinese students to extend their stay in America to avoid "persecution" in their homeland.
Those that suggest you "dance like no one is watching" really want to see you make a complete fool of yourself.
In this context, calling someone an extremist really means accusing them of having the temerity of not sharing the assumptions on which you've based your viewpoint. You begin with the assumption that the evils of the Chinese government are categorically and essentially different, more sinister, and founded on the worst instincts, while those of Western governments are not. Anyone who does not begin with this political epistemology, it seems you label an extremist. If you can control the axioms by tarring anyone who doesn't share them, of course you can pretend to be the rational one.
USA Busted Trying to Bug China's Presidential 767
China Orders E-Mail Screening
The USA tries to snoop China. China snoops its own people. What's the difference?
(At least China tells its own people that it's going to be snooping their e-mails. The USA just does it without warning.)
Zodiac Survey
That is why there is no practical difference between the two philosophies. All this anti-facist rhetoric by Marxist is just fighting between lovers, which has a tendency to turn leathal because they both think they are so morally superior and are so easily offended.
What you just said states your massive liberal bias that is found on the majority of this site.
Slashdot has a "massive liberal bias." The media has a liberal bias. Universities have a liberal bias. It seems like any gathering of intelligent, educated people has a liberal bias. I'll leave figuring out why as an exercise for the reader.
Such things that are outlawed include "Outlawed writings include any that reveal state secrets, feature pornography and violence or advocate cults."
Well there goes 90% of the SPAM coming into my mailbox. It's nice that China is finally making a national SPAM filter for its people.
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
China and it's policies are being discussed and somebody called them fascist and somebody had an objection to that so I provided the exact definition. This is off-topic? Maybe those moderations are coming from behind the great wall??? ;-)
I agree with you in theory, but when put into practice, they yield end results that are more similar than different at least when it comes to basic human rights.
Threre is a HUGE difference between censoring people's emails (what china will do) and simply reading people's emails. In my opinion, anything sent in plain text over the internet should be considered public anyway!
I can't believe you got a +5 for say reading email and censoring an entire population are the same thing. My God!
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
I haven't herd anyone point out that this is one reason why our intellectual property policy to China is so very dangerous.
Both the US and China are going to be pulled toward an Orwellian facisim as companies and powers desperate to force old-world ways of doing things will want to reach into every home to protect things like their "intellectual property" rights. However the US has a democracy and a partially working constitution that will make it much more difficult to take it to it's logical extreme - an Orwellian facisim. China does not, and by trying to break their cultural values about intellectual property rights, we are helping promote a very dangerous political situation for both them and us.
I'd say that really intelligent people, and there are a lot of these on slashdot (as well as a few idiots) accept the rational parts of both liberal thinking and conservative thinking. I for example am very liberal socially (i.e. I am pro-choice, anti-discrimination, etc.), but I am very anti-big government and pro-"strong military". Too bad there isn't a party that takes the best of both worlds and puts it together...
"There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. " - Sean Connery as King Arthur
See, it's not a hard wired as you think. There is still a part that makes people want to put on the same level. It's the upper class who doesn't want to go down to a lower class. If by some way we could eliminate the lower classes then we could become 'equals'. Who is the great thinkers/leaders? Jesus, Ghandi, Marx? All people who advocate at least equal treatment.
As you can see by the actions of the chinese government, communism is not a good thing. If the united states were communist, another capitalist country would be #1.
Sure it sounds great, everyone is equal. But the problem here, is that this is FORCED. Some people try harder than others, and thus, deserve to be a t a higher "level". So really, it's only "equal" for the people that achieve the least.
It's kinda like being back in school again (in a group environment). Out of a 6 person project, 2 people do all the work, and everyone gets credit for it.
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Kind thoughts do not change the world
Actually, China is a communist government. Which isn't fascism.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Thus far it's true that for the most part the government doesn't kill its citizens. Well, unless they're black and pulled over by a jumpy cop doing racial profiling or something. Or they live a lifestyle the government doesn't like. But apart from that, the government doesn't kill its own citizens! Truly!
And it's true that the media will keep them honest! Nevermind that the media is mostly owned by the same corporations which have been steadily lobbying for the removal of your rights for the past several decades.
But true, we're nothing like the Chinese and we don't really have anything to worry about!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
regime that exalts nation and race
The Chinese regime ruthlessly suppresses criticism of their regime, plays nationalistic propoganda exalting the government's actions, and displays xenophobia against non-Chinese peoples. They haven't started killing Jews yet, but I'd say they certainly fit this part.
centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader
It's a one-party dictatorship headed by Jiang Zemin and the Communist party. I see no difference with Hitler and the Nazi party.
severe economic and social regimentation
They've loosened economic controls somewhat in recent years, but it's still damn regimented. Much of the economy is state-owned, and the rest is expected to toe the government line. They're getting better on this score, but they still seem to fit this part.
forcible suppression of opposition
Can you say Tienamen Square? Jailing of dissidents? Oppression of Tibet? They fit this one in spades.
So I'd say "fascist" is a pretty good description of the Communist regime. In practice, most "communist" and "fascist" regimes end up looking pretty similar. The only substantive difference between Hitler and Stalin was that Stalin killed a lot more people than Hitler did. Both used a thin veneer of ideology to mask the fact that they were both just bloodthirsty tyrants.
Note that it wasn't a personal computer that they monitored in this case. It was a portable military computer. Odds are they discovered the porn during a regular security audit. Since it goes against military regs to use military computers for porn, the officer was disciplined.
I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
You need to look closer. In fact I'm more left than right but I don't believe that the ideals of the left, particularly the far left can be made to work with real people. I draw a distinction here between people like Marx and Stalin. I don't give a damn that Stalin called himself a communist, he was in fact a facist.
We started as a right-wing gov't in all respects,
This is where it gets muddy. America certainly started with a right-wing government in the sense that it was a military government led by General Washington. On the other hand, by the standards of the day (Monarchies-a-go-go) the country's ideals as a whole were pretty left-wing. Compared to today, perhaps, it appears right-wing but then there are few, if any, monarchies (ie monarchs with real political power) left in the English-speaking world today. I would argue that America today is more right wing than in 1776 as it has not moved as much as the rest of its peers towards the very ideals it was set up in the name of and has refused to look at some of the errors that were made in those early days, such as the 2nd amendment.
As far as Communism not working on the 'large scale'... people say the same stuff about capitalism
I'm not sure that many people do say that of capitalism. There are those who worry about the role of government in capitalism - should it be more or less - but I don't think there's that many people that would dismiss it totally. Especially in America.
There are a reasonable number who feel that democracy can't work on a large scale, but that it's the best of the options anyway; perhaps the same applies to capitalism: it doesn't work on the large scale but it's not as broken as the alternative.
We wouldn't even see it happening.
History gives us deep eyes.
It's the upper class who doesn't want to go down to a lower class.
I think this is unfair to the upper classes. There are just as many (as %) biggoted, stupid, hate-filled, snobish, selfish people in the "lower" as the "upper", and there are people in both that want a fairer world for all and try to do something about it. Obviously, the absolute numbers in the lower classes make them more visible.
But, either way, I think a more realistic way of putting it is "the members of one class don't want to go down to a lower class.". Humans always find someone else to look down on and they will always try to stand out, unless they are totally ground-down.
Who is the great thinkers/leaders? Jesus, Ghandi, Marx?
I'm not sure about Marx but the others are great thinkers. But they are exceptional, just as Ghengis Khan, Vladd the Impaler or Hitler were exceptional. These sort of people are no guide to the general human mass!
The problem with 'basic, evolution-wired' desires is that... you got it! It can evolve right away
I don't understand this line, what do you mean?
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
just like drug trafficing laws - if you have an unopened parcel on the kitchen table and DEA walks in and wants to arrest you cause the box contains drugs (but you havent opened the box and discovered that yet) - and name someone who doesnt get SPAM - so now if i dont like someone in china i should spam them anti-china and anti china govt material and they will get arrested for being anti china... yea allright! (sorry i am sure their is a better way to say what im trying to say, ill be more thoughtfull in the future)
It is important to work to maintain our civil liberties in the U.S. in the digital age, but I find all these smartass comments about the U.S. being the same as China abhorrent; the DCMA is wrong, Carnivore is wrong, but you infinitely cheapen the suffering of the oppressed in China by even beginning to compare these to being jailed and tortured for practicing your religious beliefs. Why not buy yourself a clue before you go out and post trash like this?
"Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity" -Alvy Ray Smith
See how fascist governments control the flow of information?
I'll admit to not being up to date on what's going on in China right now, but am I the only one surprised to hear China now labelled as "fascist"? Sure, they've had some serious Communist totalitarianism going on a while back, but when did it shift over to the extreme right-wing?
Whether or not America is fascist is left as an excercise to the paranoid.
In the spirit of capatalist democracy, this is great news. With MFN status I can see great business opportunities for our wonderful nation. If things go really well, this could be the even that turns our economy around.
After all, what better filtering and firewall software could they buy than ours? I'm putting together the presentation for the VCs right now. If I act fast I could trump MS, IBM, CA, and Network Associates before they get all the business.
Come to think of it, I wonder what business opportunities I can find in providing security systems for the labor camps.
Aaargh, what am I thinking! The real money is in facial recognition software so they can catch the dissenters easier.
Yep, China is where the opportunities are.
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Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
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I can tell you have a great future ahead of you in the NSA/FBI/Justice Dept. This is the sort of patriot we need...to bad you seem to be English. Oh well, with folks like you I can see why England is so stable and crime free.
Nothing like a peaceful controlled society to keep the toes warm.
I wish I could see the genius in this comment, but unfortunately, China is quite happy to break down your door if you are using PGP.
Of course, this is what the Gov would love to see here to...happy splintered doors of dissenters, but that's besides the point.
Was anybody really surprised about this? Appearently China has far to go as far as human rights are concerned
I talk about surveillance issues, you throw murdering tens of millions back. Is there a Chinese equivalent to Godwins Law?
Liberty in your lifetime
It's amazing how many people think America has no culture, when in fact the problem is that America has the default culture. It's just so pervasive that no one see it, it is 'normal' behavior, whereas all other countries have a different culture compared to it.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
On paper there is no doubt that communism is the best polotical system there is. total equality. The problem with communism, and it is just one problem, is people. The above statemant is 100% correct. people do not want to be equal, they want to be better
I can't see this basic, evolution-wired, desire ever changing.
Well, that I don't agree with, anything can happen, and human behaviour has changed throughout history. but it would take time.
Leg Godt!
I don't trust a fair portion of the elected officials because, as the above election shows, we don't choose our officials. If choosing was as simple as having the guy down the street run for office, then I would. But to run for office requires an immense amount of money, a brilliant staff (in short supply, obviously), and all sorts of other things that are not available to just anyone. Besides that, the populace just picks along party lines anyway; which destroys chances for most independents, who I am only a little more likely to trust with my future.
I understand that many members of government are not bad at all, but this is just like saying that most people are not stupid. A Person isn't stupid, but people are crazy, fearful, paranoid, and all sorts of other things but intelligent.1
The US is not China, but we are far from having the type of government that should be "trusted" just because they are able to spin that we "elected" them.
- DaftShadow
1. TLJ-in-MIB
This article is a troll, pure and simple, and people should stop responding to it.
Now I'm going to get moderated down. Again. Hopefully this time it will by by the real moderators, instead of the editors.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
No, it shows a certain level of ignorance, but ignorance isn't confined to liberals. Plenty of your fellow-traveller right-wingers accuse the US of being a "police state". Gordon Liddy comes to mind. The Posse Comitatus don't think of themselves as being "liberal", nor do those in the "county movement" so prevelant in places like rural Nevada.
Yep, I'd say your posts are pretty fair evidence that those on the right are as frequently ignorant as those on the left...
Very accurate and insightful summary of US political parties - leaving aside that most of what they do doesn't have much of an ideological bias at all, and is mostly aimed at courting voters ("pork-barrel" programs) or investors (er, I mean "campaign contributions"). But that's really neither here-nor-there.
One thing I've been thinking, lately though, is that the Republicans are more the party of "Freedom" than the Democrats are. Not because of ideology, as you noted in your post. But because of practical effects. See, the Democrats long ago got most of the economic powers they wish to weild legitimized by constitutional scholars. Either by interpretation in court decisions stretching the commerce regulation clause beyond any rational interpretation, or by passing ammendments (like the 16th ammendment). So, the primary check on the Democrat's excercise of their ideology in a place where I disagree with it (I'm a libertarian) is themselves. Usually their laws stand up to constitutional challenge: income tax raises; social programs; environmental programs, whatever. They generally don't get challenged to begin with, and, if they do get challenged, the Democrats win a lot of em.
On the other hand, the Republicans have been totally unable to win constitutional support for their most extreme positions. Thus, the vast majority of ludicrous Republican laws get struck down.
So, the final calculation is that, while ideologically I disagree with about half of what Democrats want to do, and I disagree with about half of what Republicans want to do, in the actuall effect of their governing, the Republicans piss me off a lot less.
Also, one last thing - has anyone else noticed that "bipartisan" means "you vote for my pork-barrel programs and I'll vote for yours?" Man I hold on to my wallet when I hear that one...
PS: I know this is redundant, but this is the only post I'm gonna make on this thread, and I've got to get it out of my system. Is that original new poster an idiot, or an asshole? What kind of moron can't see the difference between mandatory drag-net filtering for "subversive" ideas and Carnivore's (comparatively) targeted use against specified individuals? I realize that Carnivore has some problems, and we should be complaining loudly about those, but to try to even imply that throwing little old ladies in prison for putting up web pages about their religion is somehow morally equivilant to a system which is designed to go after specific people who have warrants and are suspected of engaging in criminal activity is myopic in the extreme. In China, you could've gone to JAIL for making that news post with that wise-ass remark. Here, you just get flamed for being an idiot.
The ONLY E-mail I've ever gotten from Chinese netspace is spam. I've had the entire country firewalled out at the mail server level since last October because of the widespread infestation of both spammers and open mail relays.
;-)
Perhaps the "Great Firewall of China" is their way of reciprocating?
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
Their citizens are certainly poor compared to those in the West. However they're much less poor than they were before the Communists took over. And they're no longer starving.
Of course, the Communists in China didn't overthrow a democratic state. They replaced an ineffective authoratarian government with an authoritarian government that is at least effective enough to see that its people have enough food to eat.
If you want to see abject poverty, take a trip to India, a democracy. Should we condemn democracy because of India's poverty?
I think not.
Moderators have modded the on-topic parent post as "Troll" because they disagree with the opinion presented therein.
Thanks. I'm now down to 48 karma points so the moderators can only do so much. I note that another moderator modded it up as "interesting".
You know its through constant vilgilance that our country is kept in check - saying America can do no wrong is blantantly ignorant.
I love this country - I love the fact that it says in writing that I am allowed say whatever I want. I don't like the fact that sometimes people think its politcally incorect to say certian things. Personally I think someone who speaks out more often about what is going wrong or right with this country is the most American of them all because he/she is excercising their right to free speech. And that right above all was actually paid for with peoples lives. Why die for something you don't think should be used or in your case should be used in such a way it doesn't offend conservatives and the bush family?
I know the editors will not read this comment, nor will anyone who read this care, but I hope that anyone who does read this post will maybe understand that sometimes you should take into consideration other people's ideas and thoughts and not just have a one track mind and think that whatever Slashdot rights is legitimacy
Btw - I'm sick of that line getting used to get extra mod points! Someone should do something about it! (end sarcasm mode)
Which begs the question of do you do anything at all, or simply let companies have their way with you?
And how do you exercise any judgement at all, lest you be paralysed by fear that you do something wrong? Is action as bad as in-action? Damned if you do or damned if you don't?
Your quarrel with the statement "There is a debate within the staff of Radio Free Nation on whether or not it is possible to reform the corrupt, and what to do with them before it is too late" is interesting, but somehow implies that people should never do anything about the problems in their lives or the sources of their discomfit. Somehow I do not think this is what you intended.
Of course, the chinese government is sending people to psych hospitals for disagreeing with the state, among other things. From my original post, you should be able to see that I would not be a fan of that. but you are free to imagine what you want.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
It is easy to be liberal and compassionate, especially when compassion is being financed with other people money.
Statistically speaking, it is very unlikely that you pay as much in taxes as I do. Unlike so many, I did not conveniently convert to being a conservative Republican the minute that I got into the high tax brackets. I was not out there asking the government to cut my taxes, taking money away from the schools about which you feign such concern.
What's easy is being a conservative when it means that you get paid in the form of a tax cut. Unlike you, I didn't sell my vote to the highest bidder.
Want to stop grade inflation? Then fund the teachers and schools with taxes instead of whining about how you need a "tax break." Give them the resources to teach children. Don't have kids stacked up in mobile homes (AKA "temporary classrooms") just so that you can get a share of G.W. Bush's ill-conceived tax cut.
Of course there are countries when these whackos did get to run things and now these places are licking their wounds.
I suppose you prefer places run by conservatives -- like China, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc.
Yeah, BTW, check out the Political Compass
LP.org has a much shorter (10 questions) version of the quiz that has the same left/right and libertarian/totalitarian axes but uses a different scale.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I am definitelly pissed off when I'm seeing idiots like the actual submitter claiming that COMMUNIST regimes are... fascist, so they don't have to expleain themselves why they still look tender to anything red, commie, socialist, social democracy and all the other undercovered COMMUNIST crap.
Catalin Braescu
Ofaly.com
Not that I'm aware of, in the context of what we're talking about here. Are you thinking of a particular example?
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
So what's the difference between our guarantee and theirs now that we have let "terrorism" be an excuse to search without warrant? You see, when you get outside the strict limitations of the fourth ammendment for any reason you are left with nothing but an empty prommise. With Carnivore and other wiretaping, I am NOT secure in my papers and personal effects. With the Patriot Act giving the govenment access to any electronic database, I am NOT secure in papers and personal effects. With the new wire tapping devices approved for use, I am NOT secure in my house.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
The difference between a free state and one that is oppresive is that the evil thing happened at all. There should not have had to be an outcry because the bad law should not have been passed to begin with. When laws become inconsistent, there has been a failure on the part of the government. The ultimate law of the United States is the constitution. When laws are passed that violate it, such as DMCA, Patriot Act, etc, without a constitutional ammendment, the rule of law has broken down. While we in the US believe that the consent of the governed is a primary building block of laws that are just, beware that unjust laws can be made and ignored by mobs as well ask kings.
So the first event created an outcry, will the second? Who is going to save you from jail and why should you suffer so to begin with? The law is still on the books. Those of us who recognize the inconsistency must continue to fight untill it is removed.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Hrm, Stalin was a bit more in touch with reality after the initial shock of Barbarossa wore off. He was willing to drive his country *hard* to survive, whereas AFAIK Hitler laboured on in the delusion that his country didn't really even need to go completely over to a war-footing, economically, to conqueor the world; he intended to conquer while his people miraculously would still live fairly normal consumerish lives. Stalin, I suspect, was less driven by insane dreams and illusions, and focused more on maintaining raw power. IOW, he strikes me as far more rational.
(Imagine a "Cold War" with a nuclear-armed Hitler. With Stalin and successors, the concept of mutually assured destruction worked. Hitler, on the other hand, I'm not so sure he would have responded rationally to that concept rather than willingly starting a war to obliterate all humanity on Earth.)
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Regardless of what is 'legal' and 'illegal' its not ok at all. What you are saying is that the end justifies the means ands thats not what my goverment is for. Just because the email is 'illegal' here but maybe not somewhere else or anything like that does NOT amke it ok to be spyed on.
No, you get it right.
China and other so-called communist countries (the Eastern Bloc, Marxist Africa, Vietnam, etc) are not true communism, as envisioned by Marx. They are state-capitalist countries economically, and facist politically. For a quick primer on what communism is supposed to look like, I suggest the works of Emma Goldman, although she would term it Anarchism. Basically China is going about its communism much the same way as its gone about liberating the suffering people of Tibet. And I hope you see the sarcasm in that statement.
PS: I don't believe in Communism personally, but I felt the need to correct your, ahem, facts.
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
No, not in reality. She could in the case of a minority government which refused to call an election and was unpopular. Even then it would be a hell of a fight.
The UK, NZ & Australia merely have an appearance of democracy with a monarchy that can do what it wants.
You don't know much about America or the UK, do you?
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Bravo!! A most excellent rebuttal.
You totally decimated dj28's ridiculous drivel.
I bask in your eloquent glory.
Fair enough. But "liberal" is no more valid as a monolithic moniker than "conservative". Indeed, my point is this: the labels of "conservative" and "liberal" have outlived their usefulness, if in fact they ever had any. The fiscal and moral conservatives are linked primarily through, well, through the fact that people apply "conservative" to them. They are, at best, allies of convenience.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Thus, when you get modded down (or up), the people (of the "state Slashdot" on this case) speaks their mind, much like they do when they vote on what a politician says, effectively getting him on or out of office (reducing/increasing his karma).
Of course right-wing dudes doesn't seem to care much for democracy, unless it is the one where the rich guys gets more or all votes (one way or the other, officially or behind the scenes). That includes lobbying and suchlike. So I am not surprised that you get modded down in a society that likes democracy, and I am not surprised you don't like the system.
As for flaming the US, well it is hardle the land of the free anymore, is it - if it ever was. In some ways it seems very "big brotherish" and not that democratic at all. Reminds me of the explanation I heard someone give an European on how the election of the president went: "You have these two right-wing politician, one wants the death penalty, and one is against. Now you vote."
As I don't live there myself, only speak to people who do, I am not one to judge. If what the media shows me is even mildly correct however, it is no country for me.
... the Mongolian hordes which the original wall was built to stop, didn't have rootkits and port scanners. :)
Deng Xiaoping first used the expression 'socialism with Chinese characteristics' in the mid-eighties and it remains the line that the current leadership adheres to.
A dream is good. A plan is better.
otherwise they would know the comparisions between China and America are ludicrous. Whilst I know most of the people here have a liberal bias, the comparison between China and America are ludicrous. However what seems to be happening in America is that it is beginning the *slide* to where China is at now. It is no-where near China. Well I haven't heard of America raiding people's houses and seizing family photos from relatives in the West and putting you on *trial* for that as a traitor, or taking university students, the intelligentsia so to speak, jailing them and then executing them by firing squad. Or dragging high school students out of school (because school is bad) and forcing them to work in the fields. Oh, oh and the best one, where they have courts where you can get accused of something and with the presumption "guilty until proven innocent" you get beaten until you confess except if you are innocent (which is usually the case) you don't know what they are accusing you of (since they don't tell you what the crime is) so you *can't* even make a false confession and since they'll beat you until you confess, well you can see...
The best one is when an elderly man committed suicide because he was afraid of being beaten to death by the communists (he had no gold and back in those times, you pay gold to stop being beaten to death), he hanged himself (a common occurrence, there were a suicide each week. If you are going to die, you might as well take the easy way out rather than being placed in a sack and beaten to death. Not to mention a few old people killed themselves because there wasn't enough food so if they died there would be more food for their grandkids) The next day there was the usual "assembly" to trumpet how great the government was etc. and the widow was forced to sit there and my grandmother who was sitting opposite her (and was a good friend) said that she was too afraid of getting into trouble to even cry. Not surprisingly a couple of days later she also hanged herself. There was also the way they used to stop people in the street and make you read a passage in Mandarin to check whether you knew the official language (otherwise of course you get hauled off) which was a problem because back then a lot of rural Cantonese people didn't know Mandarin...
Compared to what has happened in China in the last few decades, monitoring email is nothing. The democracy people will find ways to get around it just like they got around the Mandrain thing (they learnt that the officials always asked you to read the same passage so they just memorised that passage phonetically) And of course there are always good old fashioned bribery.
Still, I find it funny that people are saying, "At least China is upfront about it rather than hiding it like the US". Um, NOW they are. When they first started out, they hid all their actions under the guise of "patriotism" and "ideals". It may have been an unofficial secret that everyone knew. The US is at the very beginnings of the slide downwards.
"Too bad there isn't a party that takes the best of both worlds and puts it together..."
The Libertarian Party claims to be much of that, but in reality they are just another flavor of conservative republicans.
Fascism is an indeology enemical to communism, including China.
Fascism does allow too many freedoms and places hope in big corporations running the country.
I communist ideologu as per any communist big thinkers, nothing but state ownership of factories and farms is good enough.
Also, fascists believe in election and democracy.
In all books of Marx, Engels, and Lenin ruling party has to be forced to be the Communist one.
Communist and Fascist would only agree on question of religious persecution.
China abides on all above principles, relaxing only slighly state covnership of companies.
Perhaps you are off on several accounts:
The WWII was not directly result of fascism, but a result of nacism. After all, Hitler's party that won rigged elections in 1933 was "Deutsche Nazionalist" party (Gesamschaft?). True, fascist element of their ideology got them from crisis and gained big corporations as allies wishing to benefit from the war.
But, it is the nazist, not fascist who desired the war.
Marx did not advocate international war, only civil war or revoluiton. Lenin postulated, that communism must win worldvide by every possible means (I guess in State and Revolution book ) and also, that every violence against non-communits is justified.
You are right about the e-mails.
Thtat's just the case with e-mails. They belong to the state, together with people's cars, houses, children and their own lives. Of course true communist would never see party's view as a violence, so this is aimed only against the conterrevolucionaries, just as the Communist promissed.
IMHO, US is on the way to communism, but still way behind other industrial countries. In France and Spain all popoulation is fingerprinted already for decades. In Holland, Germany and Sweeden people let on themselves impose such taxes, so that goverment pays more workers than there is tax generating workers and goverment can overvote any oposiiton from remaining private sector.
Petrus.
It indicates to me the opposite.
The "Great Firewall" only filters information between China and the outside world. It is powerless against domestic network use and easy to skirt for those capable of using foreign proxies.
The new regulations imply to me that the Chinese government is relatively powerless. They're trying to push the network to regulate itself at the local level. Instead of strengthening the capabilities of the center to regulate user behavior, they're decentralizing network administration. Exactly the opposite of the Echelon strategy, actually.
I think it's more interesting to see that we're getting this kind of policy out of the MII at all. Last I heard, the agency was set to be radically overhauled and Wu Jichuan's aggressive control policies were losing out. Does this indicate a return to strict control over user behavior, or does the obvious weaknesses of the policy suggest that the CPP *is* slowly liberalizing its policy on network use, and that this is a bone for the hardcore element of the MII?
While Capitalism is economical system, Communism si both economical as political. All major Communist thinkers stressed that Communism must be totalitarian.
Along with the promise of equality Marx, Engels, Lenin, Gramschi, even Trotsky they without delay state, that some are more equal than others. Capitalists, small business owners, trade unionists, monarchs & nobility, all priests and religious inflexible enought to change to communist yesmans can choose between asimilation and deth. All other non-communist are to be distrusted and contempted.
What is on the paper ended up evenworse in reality, ending with all the planned violence and some wars between communists themselves. Take French Revolution, Mexican, Portugal, Spanisch, Russian, All eastern block, China, Vieatnam, Korea, Mongolia, Cuba, etc..
Which of them did not cause terrible and cotinuing bloodshet of many innocent ( andmostly poor) people, just as promissed in the literature of Communist thinkers. where is the 'nice' communism.
Nowhere, really.
Not even on paper.
It never was.
It is even too transparent as a deceptive promise of equality.
That's right.
Althought Fascist are often by media called extreme right, it is surprisingly incorrect.
Fascism is a system that relies heavily on big corpporations and state social support.
If left is more social and right more cometitive,
than fascism looks to me more like extreme middle.
Please support your arguement that Emma Goldman was not an anarchist. Not only does she claim that title for herself, but most modern anarchist writing is based upon her belief (including the works of Chomsky.) Until I see proof otherwise, I'll continue to believe she's an anarchist.
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
I'm giving up my plans to move to China, as of this very minute. Thank you, Slashdot. Thank you.
all your email are belong to US*
*well, if the US stick more bugs in chinese gear [re:their airforce one]
Either of those facts could be used to better define either China or Bush. You evidently expect that they'll be put to the first use; I assign them to the latter.
That's a lie. Encryption is legal in China.
Now, when you're hit with the flood of SPAM coming from an APNIC IP address, you can just respond to the system administrator of the open relay, like this:
"Greetings fellow Falun Gong brother. Your idea to encrypt message as commercial email is brilliant! I definitely agree that we need to move our geurilla forces into Tibet immediately, so that we may work against the tyranical Chinese regime."
Now *that* would likely get those open relays closed!
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
You know what, I'm really getting sick of the bigotry that I see here on Slashdot. Anytime a story is posted based on our rights, department of justice, business, etc... there always has to be a flame aimed towards the United States of America. I'm assuming most of the readers here have mostly a leftist view on most political issues, and that's absolutely fine.
/. share your opinions on things, it might reflect on us Slashdotters as a whole, but it's statistically more likely to just reflect on you personally. Either find a forum with people who agree with your opinions already or stop whining in this one.
/. is very democratic. Moderators are chosen at random from people that visit the site.
:)
But what about the conservatives who read Slashdot? What about us? How do the people who read Slashdot with a right winged attitude feel about biased comments that contain negativity, and to some of us, a fallacy (sp?) towards our government, economy, policies, etc...
Am I the only one who finds the irony in this post? The story is about how the Chinese government doesn't allow dissent and is telling ISPs to police emails for subversive statements. You then complain that Americans shouldn't dissent so much and should stop criticizing the American government so you don't get offended by people disagreeing with you. It would therefore seem that you would be in favor of the Great Firewall of China, right? I doubt you are, of course, but that's only because your thinking is confused and logically inconsistent.
Criticism of the country in general (as opposed to the government) is certainly different. Your post draws no distinction. I don't see why you think conservatives should be more offended by that than anyone else- unless you somehow think that conservatism and patriotism are the same thing.
As far as criticism of the government is concerned- democracy only works when citizens constantly criticize and question those in power. Perhaps you'd rather live in a country where there is no criticism of the government.
Comments as well (I'm posting this anonymously for a reason). Whenever I post a comment that will go against something I read in an article that will have a conservative view to it, maybe 75-80% of time time it will get modded down to -1 (52 posts, no flames, Karma 2, you do the math). Whatever happened to getting 2, 3, 4, everyone's side of the story?
Oh please. You sound like the people who write in to talkorigins.org complaining that the creationist side of the issue isn't getting equal treatment on the site. Nobody is obligated to rate your posts up merely so that both sides of every story are presented. Sometimes it's obvious which side is wrong. If fewer than half of the participants in a public forum like
The moderation system on slashdot is awful and wrong. Using an analogy of a hostile government. If I say anything remotely conservative, I will get modded down. Hmm... seems fair enough.
A "hostile government" is modding your posts down?!? I know you're just making a bad analogy, but seems like another case of politically correct whining. You couldn't ask for fairer treatment than you're getting.
What would you replace the current system with? One where YOU or "remotely conservative" minded people like you are the sole moderators? Your definition of "remotely conservative" might be reasonable, but it might very well fit my or other people's definition of "kookily conservative". How are we supposed to know? You posted as an AC so we can only guess.
As long as we're making questionable analogies between websites and governments, there are many online forums where the people in charge simply delete posts they don't like. Any dissent on those boards is quickly met by people saying creepy things like "soon you and your posts will go away, heh heh." Wouldn't that make a better analogy with a "hostile government"?
Sucks that you posted anonymously and lost all that karma. Bet you wish you weren't such an anonymous coward now, eh?
...is a pretty standard technique for intellectual lightweights trying to make themselves sound "enlightened" and "free thinking". It's right up there with instant disparagement of anything made or done by "Micro$oft", with praise for the nobility of any theft of intellectual property, with labeling anyone who objects to having his intellectual property stolen a "fascist", and so on.
The poster wasn't proposing a ban on all criticism of America, just objecting to the sophomoric Slashdot editorial practice of inserting a jab at the US when introducing any story about any other country so they'll appear "balanced".
And he got called a "fascist" in return. How predictable....
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
It seems like it would be an easy task for even a mediocre 'power-user' running Microsoft Windows to find/get/steal/download software that would allow them to bypass or encrypt their communications. There are so many subtle ways to send messages via TCP/IP that I don't think this is going to stop people who REALLY want to send anti-communist material via the Internet in/out of China. How many people in China even have access to the Internet, and use it? It seems to me the real concern the Chiniese goverment has is anon people posting anti-china comments on web sites. Eventually people are going to figure out how to get aroud this, if they haven't already.
There are too many people in the UK saying just that (some of them civil servants) to spy on all of them.
(it happened in Australia in the 70's)
That was a generation ago; thing are different now. The monarcy is too weak to try that again.
A democracy has a written constitution
Why?
In a democracy, law must be constitutional.
Why?
You could argue that america has currently reverted to a monarchy because the president is the son of a former president.
You could argue that its a dictatorship since Bush did not win the election and seized power with the help of his family.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
So, you didn't join and therefore don't know what they do. "Why" is pretty obvious.
A democracy has a written constitution to ensure that the laws do not violate the rights of the people. Democratic law must be constitutional to be a legitimate law that preserves the freedom of the people.
You are making the mistake of assuming a written constitution can't be re-written. A strong government can re-write any part of a written constitution; America's string of amendments didn't just fall out of the sky, you know.
the son of a former president rigged the vote count in his brother's state
Well, the nearest I can get to the facts are that the son of a former president's brother-in-law fixed the electoral register (or whatever the Americans call it) so that a huge number of Black people in key areas were disbared from voting by a computer "error" which he refused to fix before the vote. The dubious vote counting was a second line of defense, as it were.
The key difference between a dictatorship and a monarchy is the fact that a monarch inherits the right to rule from his family, almost always his parents.
That's the key difference between a dictatorship and an absolute monarchy, the latter of which haven't existed in The West for 200 years.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Since it's just a filter (I.E. not a person reading everything), wouldn't it be just obvious to encrypt everything ? Or just purposely mis-spell text.. or just type it into a paint program and send the Jpeg of the text..
Keywork filtering is stupid.. just like the chinese government. Ha.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
So who is the Queen of England? is she not also the Queen of Australia and New Zealand?
She's also the Queen of Canada.
The UK, NZ & Australia merely have an appearance of democracy with a monarchy that can do what it wants.
They merely have an appearance of monarchy with a democracy which really runs things. If the Queen ever attempted to do something that wasn't popular, that would be the end of the monarchy.
For all the talk of democracy, the US is really more 0wn3d by corporations than by the people. Corporations would seem to be more autocratic than a figurehead monarchy.
We also have strict rules when it comes to coming up with amendments.
One word: prohibition.
Go back to palestine, a state that could have been if they didn't refuse to be. Your ignorance shows when you link to a site which says that Israel is the ones to blame when you didn't want to be a state at all. At least three times in history you had the chance to become a state, but you didn't want to because you would rather kill the Jews.
Who are you talking to? I've never even been to Palestine, nor have I linked to any sites in this thread!
You are lucky you had that chance because before that the UK could have kicked you all out.
I'm in the UK; have you been drinking?
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
This does not fit the definition of monarchy that you put forward earlier.
less than 200 years ago, Queen Victoria was the absolute monarch of the British Empire.
You clearly know nothing at all about the UK's internal politics. Victoria was never an absolute monarch. There have been no absolute monarchs in the UK since James I. Charles I tried it and discovered pretty quickly what the limits were - he was executed.
less than 100 years ago, the Tsar of Russia was the absolute monarch of the Russian Empire.
Well, if we count Russia as "The West" then I was wrong, but it's debatable.
Russia had an Empire, then a revolution which was replaced by democracy which is led by a a former KGB agent who started a war to become president.
Well, that's the sort of thing that happens in mob-rule, sorry, democracy: the best bullshiter gets in and can do what he, she, or it wants for a few years.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Nice point... they are even more racist than one usually imagines when you consider the Han ethnic group's complete obliteration of the other 50 plus minorities within China. Prior to the "Revolution", there were more than 100 "ethnicities" or "minorities" in China. Now there are only 56 recognized minorities and those are being screwed daily. The Chinese government constantly relocates poor Han Chinese to the "hinterlands" of China in order to "develop" them. If you go to Lhasa which used to be 1 percent Han... you'll find about 70 percent now. Many other former ethnic strongholds are being quickly assimilated or obliterated. The way "minorities" are treated in China is a joke. The mainstream population consistently mocks and riducules these cultures and makes it all but a sin not to be a regular Han. Besides race they have that maniacal obsession with their history and culture... 5000 years of history my ass. If most European countries figured history the way Chinese do, Italy would be how old? England? Any who.... they are fascists!
Quit whining and write more, better stuff... oh and if you're so simple to label yourself, left or right, liberal or conservative, you probably don't have the creativity to pen... I mean type a decent article! WORD!
China is communist in name only. It is a totalitarian, nationalist, slightly racist, hot to make a well regulated buck country. Simple as that. Those old cadres are just for show. Not a commi in the whole place! They have to freakin shell out the bucks for everything. No government help... no free education... toll roads everywhere... no more free housing... the cheap medical care is shit so you don't even get what you pay for... the land is bought and sold... taxes are barely even collected... only the farmers get the stiffy! WORD!
China is communist in name only. It is a totalitarian, nationalist, slightly racist, hot to make a well regulated buck country. Simple as that. Those old cadres are just for show. Not a commi in the whole place! They have to freakin shell out the bucks for everything. No government help... no free education... toll roads everywhere... no more free housing... the cheap medical care is shit so you don't even get what you pay for... the land is bought and sold... taxes are barely even collected... only the farmers get the stiffy! It's fascist... check the dictionary! WORD!
If it walks like a fascist but calls it's self a commi... then what is it? China is communist in name only. It is a totalitarian, nationalist, slightly racist, hot to make a well regulated buck country. Simple as that. Those old cadres are just for show. Not a commi in the whole place! They have to freakin shell out the bucks for everything. No government help... no free education... toll roads everywhere... no more free housing... the cheap medical care is shit so you don't even get what you pay for... the land is bought and sold... taxes are barely even collected... only the farmers get the stiffy! It's fascist... check the dictionary! WORD!
If it walks like a fascist but calls it's self a commi, what is it? China is communist in name only. It is a totalitarian, nationalist, slightly racist, hot to make a well regulated buck country. Simple as that. Those old cadres are just for show. Not a commi in the whole place! They have to freakin shell out the bucks for everything. No government help... no free education... toll roads everywhere... no more free housing... the cheap medical care is shit so you don't even get what you pay for... the land is bought and sold... taxes are barely even collected... only the farmers get the stiffy! It's fascist... check the dictionary! WORD!
Hmmm...
2 2b .html
http://www.virtualchina.com/archive/laws/lr0002
Compulsory registration of users
When a commercial encryption product is sold, the name, address and organization code (or individual identity card number) of the direct user of the product must be registered together with the purpose of each encryption product. The registration particulars will then be recorded with the state encryption administration authorities.
Use of state approved products
Units and individuals are only allowed to use commercial encryption products that have been approved by the state encryption administration authorities. They may not use encryption products they have researched and produced by themselves or that have been produced outside China.
No transfers allowed
Users of commercial encryption products may not transfer their commercial encryption products. Any malfunction of an encryption product must be repaired by a unit designated by the state encryption administration authorities. Any scrapping or destruction of encryption products must be reported to the state encryption administration authorities.
Foreigners are not allowed to use encryption at all, besides diplomats. Doesn't sound to me like opposition parties or underground movements are going to get licenses anytime soon.