Professional, Portable, Live MP3 Encoding

An Anonymous Coward writes: "Developed by DIALOG4/ORBAN the unit is called the Sountainer, a fliptop portable about the dimensions of a cell phone. Emphasized as an audio field recorder, the unit was designed for broadcasters, journalists, and artists who wish to record a live feed of their performance off the mixing board."

Comments

Ah, the possibilities.....

[nixadmin]

With wireless add-on capability, this could be an ideal tool for "man-in-the-field interviews", or perhaps the audio equivalent of live hidden webcams. Here's to the documented life!

Re:Ah, the possibilities.....

[ringbarer]

Why would I want to interview a man in a field?

Me: "So why are you standing in this field?"
Man: "Duuur! I dunno!"

Quality journalism there.

Re:Ah, the possibilities.....

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just in case some terrorists highjack another plane and crash it into an empty field.

"Yeppers, I knew Bob well. If he woulda just stopped fucking that sheep and ran, he mighta had a chance. Plane fell right on 'em. Cryin' shame."

Interesting... but kind of pointless

[GreenJeepMan]

I don't know who they are marketing this product towards but at a 128 kbps data rate, its kind of pointless. 128kbps is fine for MP3s, but if you want to get a good master copy of any music you need a much higher bit rate. Remember 128 kbps isn't as good as an audio CD, still better then tape mind you.

Maybe good for those live dead shows, but probably not, there is no RCA or Mic line in.

Just my 3 cents...

Re:Interesting... but kind of pointless

[Olinator]

Probably because they've skipped platters -- it uses flash memory, with a putative max of 256M according to the article. What's the point of high-bitrate recording if you can't store (e.g.) an entire concert?

IMnsHO, they should've tossed in a drive a la the archos recorder, and made the thing capable of =192VBR.

Re:Interesting... but kind of pointless

[gazbo]

Well I figure that even at 256Kbps they can record over 2 hours of music, so it seems unlikely that this is the reason they would not go up to 192 or even just 160.

And 128Kbps is woefully inadequate in some cases. Sure it sounds OK most of the time, but try a highly produced song - TLC's Unpretty springs to mind - and it sounds awful. The sound of the high-hat on that song sounded painfully bad right up to 192Kbps, and even then you can tell straight out that it's wrong.

Re:Interesting... but kind of pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

I tend to think that "broadcasters and journalists" will not be recording music, but instead speech. For speech, even 128kbps can be overkill.

Professional ???

[Hougaard]

How can you call something professional with these limitations:

1. Max 128kbps recording
2. Max 256 MB memory using MMC.
3. No option for recording MP2 (lossless)

But it is nice to have portable MP3 recorders and I wish that someone would create a good unit for doing that. Right now, most recording is done with protable DATs (and sometimes mididiscs) or with a laptop with a good sound device (M-Audio or Emagic comes to mind).

Re:Professional ???

[anonymous loser]

Sure, having "perfect" audio makes sense for musical performances, but for recording stuff like speeches and other oral (voice) presentations, the bitrate and memory on this device are more than enough. From the summary here on slash, I get a feeling that's the intended market anyway (broadcasters and journalists).

Re:Professional ???

[Monte]

Reading between the lines it seems to me this thing is for professional interviewers. For voice recording it should be adequate (but not quite good enough for NPR, I wager) but for music - I'll pass.

What puzzles me is why this puppy doesn't have built-in mics? One less thing to carry around with you.

Re:Professional ???

[Gavitron_zero]

I agree with the fact that this thing is hardly professional, but look at what is can do instead of what it can't...this thing can capture live audio, and encode to mp3 on the fly...that's pretty cool.

You also have to look at costs...My band uses Emagic's Logic for recording, and that thing is expensive, and we still have a mixing board too. This thing circumvents that huge cash outlay for a good sound device.

Also, this thing could be great for musicians trying to make that first demo. You can rent a mixing board from your local music store for a small amount of money, and then use this thing to do the recording. You won't have a lot of editing capability, but it would be good enough to give club owners in an effort to get a gig.

Re:Professional ???

[Monte]

Also, this thing could be great for musicians trying to make that first demo. You can rent a mixing board from your local music store for a small amount of money, and then use this thing to do the recording.

Anyone planning to do this had better buy two of the things, because if one breaks down at a critical moment it's unlikely you'll be able to track down a replacement in any hurry.

I'd be very leary of using proprietary hardware / media for content I was getting paid to produce.

Re:Professional ???

[rebbie]

Rule number one about the use of the word "Professional":

-- Anything specifically labeled "Professional" isn't.

Re:Professional ???

[Shelled]

MP2 isn't lossless and MP3 mono is a big improvement for news gathering, the majority which is still done on Marantz or Sony portable cassette decks in the radio industry.

Re:Professional ???

[fleener]

If journalists are the target audience, they'd be better off with something like the Archos Recorder (or the 20GB version coming soon. Far greater storage and useful for recording notes or radio sound bites.

Re:Professional ???

[NeMon'ess]

What use does a journalist have with a 6GB hard drive? The batteries on the Archos will die long before the HD is full when recording at any bitrate including 256kbps which is not supported by the Archos. Are you suggesting journalists will happily lug the AC adapter around with them to recharge? The new player is tiny: 62 x 110 x 24 mm, and incredibly light: Weight 140 g (incl. 2 AA Batteries).

Re:Professional ???

[fleener]

Are you dinging the Archos because they gave it a large hard drive??? So what if the batteries run out before the storage is filled. Are we supposed to like a lesser product because it has less storage? "Oh, that's too much storage for me, thanks. I'll take this dinky one over here."

And yes, a journalist will lug around an extra set of rechargeable batteries, *in case* they are needed (which is unlikely to begin with). They already do that for analog tape recorders and digital cameras.

Re:Professional ???

[rustman]

I believe the market for this is radio news gathering. Right now, those folks use cassettes or microcassette recorders, quality isn't that important (128k mono will be find thank you for that!). The miniplug is probably because the alternative is a XLR, which is way too big.

Orban makes products for the radio broadcast market. This is not aimed at the taper crowd.

It's a specialty product.

Re:Professional ???

[n6mod]

You've obviously never been a journalist. (Or even near one...)

One of the things that I remember over and over again from photojournalism courses were the stories of cameras being smashed by people who didn't want their picture taken. But the film survived.

If your recorder gets smashed to the pavement by an angry politician, a MMC will likely survive where a disk won't.

Seems far fetched, but it is reality.

Still no OGG in site...

[fleeb_fantastique]

I'm still holding out for Ogg Vorbis. Someday, somebody has to build a recorder and player in Ogg Vorbis instead of MP3.

Re:Still no OGG in site...

[ikeleib]

Stop bitching and write a fixed point decoder. If you write it, they will come. As yet, nobody has written a fixed point decoder. THIS IS WHY THERE IS NO OGG IN PORTABLE PLAYERS. In fact, this is the only reason. Manufactures would include it, because it is free. It's one more bullet on the box at no cost to them.

Re:Still no OGG in site...

[Anonymous Coward]

no. never. it's hyped by RMS, and RMS scares the suits away by waving his dirty sponge and socks in their faces.

Re:Still no OGG in site...

[kaas]

maybe once ogg has a final version...

Re:Still no OGG in site...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe when Ogg becomes a standard like MP3, then it'll start being supported.

Honestly, who actually gives a shit about Ogg Vorbis support. Its just another format that is really not needed, and a low quality one at that.

No XLR

[Anonymous Coward]

There isn't an XLR or miniXLR input, or anything but a normal headphone jack...not even RCA...thats pretty lame if you want to make recordings with it.

Another option

[Hershmire]

Or you could use a laptop. If you're using a mixing board, it's not like you're going to need portability.

No digital?

[djn]

It seems rather odd that this unit, directed towards professional DJs, is lacking a digital input. Surely these professionals will have digital boards with digital outputs perfect for recording on this neat little unit. Even middle-of-the-road MiniDisc recorders often have digital input.

-Dan
unixpunx.org - punks, computers, intelligence

Re:No digital?

[jakobk]

Blame the RIAA.

Re:No digital?

[Anonymous Coward]

actually, alot of desks used for live front of house are still analogue, and you'll find that alot of DJ rigs are analogue too...after all when your source is on Vinyl (ok so some will be CD but anyway) converting it to digital isnt a big improvement at all.

a

low bit rate

[NotLad]

an mp3 recorder that maxes out with a 128kbps bit rate should not be called "professional"

I don't think proffessionals will like this much

[Uttles]

Here is an interesting new digital music player. Actually it's a player/recorder targeted to professionals or anyone else who wants to record voice and music on the fly digitally.

I can see this being a cool little device for the every day person, but as an MP3 format recorder at a max of 128 kps, with only 256MB memory (will increase soon), I just don't see professionals switching from traditional media to this recorder any time soon, not even for their live performances. I think until a higher end format is used, such as Ogg Vorbis, these people will continue using analog recording media and if they need to transmit it digitally, they'll just use an encoder of some type back at the studio. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a cool little gadget for the average user, I'd like to play with one.

Nothing compared to Archos, IMO.

[shaka]

Archos Jukebox Recorder seems like a much more rofessional gadget to me, with a 6 GB disk and the ability to record at 160 kbps.
I'm planning on getting one RSN.

Re:Nothing compared to Archos, IMO.

[Karellan]

YES - you beat me to it! I have the play only version and I reget not investing the extra hundred for the record version. Well, now I need a second one! Very solid machine. And, it will move ANY data, not just MP3 files.

Still no OGG in the public eye

[no reason to be here]

I doubt that will ever happen, as no one outside of computer geeks and wannabe computer geeks has heard of ogg. don't believe me?, walk around your average college student union, and ask the student populace (perhaps the people who use mp3 the most) about ogg. "ogg? what's an 'ogg'?"

Re:Still no OGG in the public eye

[Dr. Evil]

It is a long shot, but maybe some manufacturer will like the idea of creating an ogg-chip which, to the end user, does exactly what the MP3 one does, except they pay no royalties.

Re:Still no OGG in the public eye

[no reason to be here]

furthermore, from my own experience, even musicians, DJ's, etc. who know more about audio technology than the average joe, have yet to hear of ogg, for the most part. even those musicians i know that fancy themselves computer geeks.

Why this instead of MiniDisc (or DAT?)

[KelsoLundeen]

Question: What's the advantage to this MP3 recorder over a minidisc recorder?

I know both recorders use types of compression, but wouldn't your standard MD player offer better overall quality?

(DAT would obviously be better, but I'm trying to figure out why anyone would use this thing over an MD recorder and a decent mic.)

This isn't meant to be a flame or a troll -- I'm curious. I realize MD is limited to the amount of time on an MD tape, but I've used MD to record a lot of Dylan concerts, and always -- almost always, at least -- the sound is superb. The few times the sound hasn't been superb has been my own fault -- cheap mic, bad seating, etc.

Re:Why this instead of MiniDisc (or DAT?)

[shaka]

Because with a minidisc, when you want to record or playback something, the rate is terribly slow. It takes 4 minutes to record a 4 minute song. This is ok if you're at a Dylan concert, but not if you want to record the latest Dylan album from your mp3 collection.
Likewise, when you want to transfer your Dylan recording to your computer, it takes as long as the Dylan concert.

Re:Why this instead of MiniDisc (or DAT?)

[alanh]

This device appears to be totally solid state. Minidisc and DAT both have moving parts. This recorder should be shock-proof and shouldn't be able to physically damage the media.

Re:Why this instead of MiniDisc (or DAT?)

[Monte]

Question: What's the advantage to this MP3 recorder over a minidisc recorder?

I was going to point out longer battery life on the solid-state recorder, but given it's memory limitations it'll run out of recording space long before it runs out of juice.

Re:Why this instead of MiniDisc (or DAT?)

[yrn1]

At the Essential parties (Breakbeat, in Brussels, Belgium), we record with a minidisc, straight from the desk. Sound quality is better than mp3@128kbps.

Check the mp3'd encodings at www.submedia.com/audio

Re:Why this instead of MiniDisc (or DAT?)

[Shelled]

Minidiscs are recorded in Sony's proprietary ATRAC format. No easily available computer drive bays or audio editors/software codecs exist, meaning a reporter would be required to re-record the entire interview in real time to .WAV for computer editing.

Re:Why this instead of MiniDisc (or DAT?)

[rudiger]

MD player/recorders are incredibly resilient when it comes to shock/jitter correction. i have never had mine skip on me, and i have put it through it's paces.

Re:Why this instead of MiniDisc (or DAT?)

[Binhexboy]

Mini-Disc all the way! I've used more than one portable DAT decks and have even had one eaten during a recording. Don't forget... in the news gathering frame of mind... a Mini-Disc can record 160 minutes of audio (and it time date stamps it). No matter what you use you are going to have to compromise something. In my opinion the Minidisc recorders I've used perform flawlessly and come in a size that you can't beat. Plus, there are decks these days that do transfer faster than 1x (real time). And here's some advice for your next Dylan show... string a PZM mic around your neck... you will get phenominal sound... and unless you like the stereo clapping, record it in mono - you'll get the whole show. Then you can use a little stereo reverb in the final mix to live'n it up.

Re:Why this instead of MiniDisc (or DAT?)

[n6mod]

Actually, the Vaio MX series desktops have MD drives in a bay. They brag about 24x recording, so one would assume that you could extract audio at something >1x.

OTOH, Sony is a party to the "all your bits are belong to us" groupthink that brought us the DMCA and the AHRA before it, so they probably think they own your analog recordings and will prohibit you from doing anything with them. ;)

(Before the pedants surface, yes, the SCMS bits should be set to at least "copy once" if not "copy many" on a MD recorded from analog inputs. I have a CO3, so I never pay attention.)

Re:Why this instead of MiniDisc (or DAT?)

[non_linear]

>Sony's proprietary ATRAC format

Sure, MP3 is less proprietary? ;)

>re-record the entire interview in real time to .WAV for computer editing.
Depends on the final use. The recordings could be for reference/quotes in developing the story rather than for production work (DAT is probably better for production).

A portable recorder, a stack of discs, a couple of AA's, and a mike could fit in one cargo pocket on them cargo pants. Filled up one disc? Pop in another. Fill up the static ram? No laptop? Depends on the application.

Re:Why this instead of MiniDisc (or DAT?)

[Skip666Kent]

Lightweight
No moving parts
Quick up/download to PC
On-the-fly mp3 (no fussing afterwards)

These are just a few that come quickly to mind.

Will this type of thing eventually force things like DAT and MD off the market?

Yes, but not totally.

Ever heard of MD?

[af_robot]

Sony MZ-R900 Comparing with Orban Sountainer 1. Cheaper media 2. Max playback/record/recharge time: 53 / 19 / 3.5 hours 3. Dimensions: 80 (W) x 20.5 (H) x 75.5 (D) mm 4. Weight: 135g (including NiMH battery) I don't sea how Orban Sountainer can compete with usual MD recorder in a field it was targeted.

Re:Ever heard of MD?

[NeMon'ess]

MD plays back at real-time, USB transfers a minute of audio each second. Do the math and figure out which recorder a journalist would rather have.

Re:Ever heard of MD?

[Binhexboy]

First thing... the definition of ORBAN is: Over priced pro audio for Broadcast professionals that don't know how to use digital equipment (aka a computer).

Also, don't forget the ability to leave Track Marks during the recording or later. When you interview someone you can listen to the interview on the way back to the studio and delete the not important segements and do some good barebones editing.

Non-professional portable mp3 recording

[smaugy]

I wouldn't mind a simple little *cheap* device with enough memory to be able to record an hours worth of a University lecture. Does such a thing exist?

It might be easier to just use a laptop :-\

we are talking "live" recordings

[night_flyer]

128k is more than enough for live recordings, considering background noise, proximity of the source of the recording (loud speakers, etc)

anything over 128 is overkill... it just depends on how well it records in the first place.

I chalenge even "golden ears" to tell me the difference in a 256 rate Megadeth concert and a 128 rate one...

Re:we are talking "live" recordings

[Anonymous Coward]

you're on, pinky.

No Low-Pass filters, either. Encode the whole spectrum, or I'd be forced to smack you upside the head.

Re:we are talking "live" recordings

[(H)elix1]

I'll bite here...

I like to have one "grade" above 128 bit encoding (well under 256 however) because some times I go from MP3 to music CD format. Listening is fine with 128, as long as you don't want to do much more IMHO.

Re:we are talking "live" recordings

[asv108]

Obviously, you are not a live taping enthusiast. The recording medium for live concerts can play a big part in the eventual quality of the recording. Most people who record concerts use at least $2000 - $5000 mics going in to a preamp, an A>D converter, then finally a portable DAT usually the Tascam DA-P1. Check out etree to see how live audio enthusiasts are sticklers for quality. All live concerts are traded in SHN format for LOSELESS compression.

That being said, no live taper would ever be caught dead using this thing to record a show. If somebody showed up with this thing a taping section, they would be laughed out of the building.

Re:we are talking "live" recordings

[night_flyer]

are you talking soundboard or audience recording?

if soundboard... duh...

Re:we are talking "live" recordings

[SmittyTheBold]

In a concert, it's even easier to tell than usual - the background audience noise is especially susceptible to MP3 artifacting.

Re:we are talking "live" recordings

[asv108]

!-- FROM MY ORIGINAL REPLY -->
Most people who record concerts use at least $2000 - $5000 mics going in to a preamp, an A>D converter, then finally a portable DAT usually the Tascam DA-P1

Well I think it would be kind of a waste to buy $5000 mics if your were just going to patch in to the board.

DUH!

Re:we are talking "live" recordings

[night_flyer]

considering the concerts Ive gotten latly, I would say the your "most" is in a minority

Re:we are talking "live" recordings

[Webmonger]

The trouble is, it doesn't end with the live recording. You usually want to do at least a little post-processing, and post-processing can make inaudible artifacts much more obvious.

For any recording, you should record your source material in a higher quality than you intend to use for output-- that way, the processing you do won't cause output quality loss.

Re:we are talking "live" recordings

[seanadams.com]

128k is more than enough for live recordings, considering background noise, proximity of the source of the recording (loud speakers, etc)

Actually, I've found the opposite to be true. The kinds of "noise" on a live recording include clapping and cheering, as well as quiet bits of background din. Sounds such as these, which either use a wide chunk of bandwidth or are much quieter than the music, are very difficult for an MPEG encoder to capture at ANY bitrate - in fact, this is exactly the part of the signal that MP3 is *designed* to lose. As a specific example, try encoding the sound of an audience clapping in unison.

I have found that studio recordings almost always sound as good as the original CD with 256K+/VBR encoding, whereas live albums can have a significant amount of distortion/loss.

I'm neither a musician nor do I have a "golden ear", but this stuff is quite audible when you're used to listening to the original CD and then you go to your MP3 player.

Re:we are talking "live" recordings

[Anonymous Coward]

[Megadeth versus Quality]

I play classical piano, and record my
performances with a pair of stereo mics
and a sony dat recorder. Sometimes I use
minidisc, sometimes I encode with mpeg.

There is a profound difference between 128k and
256kb mp3 encoded samples.

For something with as high source spl as your heavy
metal band, you can get away with significantly more
dynamic compression than you can with a solo acoustic
instrument or ensemble. You don't need golden ears
to judge this; it's in your face -- 128k isn't good
enough.

Re:we are talking "live" recordings

[Anonymous Coward]

I think Megadeth was thrown in as an example of a "live" event, Im quite sure you, playing your piano, wont have the same type of background noise...

karma troll! Re:Professional ???

[Anonymous Coward]

dirty karma troll.

why would you want more than 128 kbs from a microphone? read what professinals it is comapred too. And... no price yet.

Nix to MP3, please

[Anonymous Coward]

why would I record anything I gave a damn about in a proprietary codec? For that matter why could I record to a lossy format? As a musician I'm dying for portable, one-piece, handy digital recording devices I can plug a mic into and use in the field, but not to make low-bitrate recordings in MP3.

linux fux0rs...

[Anonymous Coward]

depend on selling mugs and t-shirts to make a living!

muahahahahaha!!!! 8-)

Cool!

[funkhauser]

Finally, that sultry CNN correspondent Christiane Amanpour can encode her reports and put them up on Gnutella via satellite connection as soon as she gets back to her run-down Kabul hotel! YES! Suck on that, Fox News! :)

cost?

[hex1848]

Anyone find a price for one of these guys? I think I can overcome the 128k rate if the thing is relatively cheap.

Don't forget about MiniDisc

[dmeiz]

You get a better bang for the buck with MiniDisc. Moore's Law says this will change, of course, but for high quality portable recording today, MiniDisc is tops.

I do like the fact that the Sountainer's most exciting aspect is its SDMI non-compliance.

Finally!

[theluckman]

I always thought it would be nice to have something to record live shows to mp3 with. Given, it's not excellent quality, but it's better than listening to a show someone recorded with a classroom tape recorder.

It's all about the marketing.

[Anonymous Coward]

If the name were a bit more accessible to the everyday joe, it would be more prevalent.

We're a little more used to the name... but just think if someone came out with a stereo named "Slurp Warmput" or something as silly sounding. Doesn't sound very sleek, technical, or sexy as the simple em-pee-three. It rolls off the tongue.

Yes, this has been said before, most likely more eloquently, but so has the question "Why isn't OGG more popular?".

Chao

good things come to those who wait (?)

[resonator]

If I were a "pro" in the audio field, I would consider it worth the time of the Dylan concert to have a higher fidelity DAT (or MD) copy of the concert vs. a fairly instantanious transfer. Especially with the Dylan example. It's hard enough to decipher his slurred lyrics in hi-fi vs. lossy compression!

*Very* interesting

[mcc]

I've been looking for some kind of little handheld thing i can slip in a pocket or backpack and use for random field recordings, and this may be what i've been looking for for some time.. i'm not happy about the whole "128 kbps max" thing, and it would be convenient if there were an integrated mic (although i guess i could find a mic that would just clip on).. but still. That's handy. I wish there were pricing information available.. it'll probably be out of my budget, but if it's less than a few hundred dollars, or at least under the rediculous prices you seem to have to pay to get any kind of working portable DAT tape recorder, i want one..

A random thought: something i've been wishfully daydreaming about for some time is the idea of rigging an iPod to work like one of these-- get some kind of USB-firewire bridge and then hook up a USB microphone, then abuse the iPod's upgradeable firmware feature to add the ability to read in AIFFs to the iPod's hard drive. You could maybe even add the ability to have the iPod go back and encode the recorded AIFFs sitting around into mp3s to conserve space.. This may or may not be possible (i don't know how flexible/hackable the iPod is-- i believe it has an ARM chip though, doesn't it? that should be able to do just about whatever you like, no?) and it would require reverse-engineering the iPod's firmware, which would not be fun and definitely not be something i'm capable of (though someone out there is almost certainly already trying to do exactly that, at least for the purpose of A) adding some more games to complement the built-in breakout easter egg, TI-83 style or B) adding ogg vorbis support), but it's a lovely thought.

I have this mental image of someday some company creating a little slip-on chassis for the ipod that hooks into the firewire port and contains a firewire mic, then contracting with apple to create a legitimate version of the hacked firmware described above.. i know that will never happen, but that would be basically the most perfect piece of equipment possible for my needs..

Ahh, if only professional (read: no "copy protection" bullshit) DAT tape recorders weren't so expensive.. (i can't find any for under $700. Am i maybe just not looking hard enough?

Bleh. Well, back to my daydreams (daydream 1 .. daydream 2), i guess..

Re:*Very* interesting

[shaka]

Basically, what you want is an Archos Jukebox Recorder. Check out the new 20 GB version: http://www.archos.com/us/products/product_500277.h tml

Don't know about the cost for this one, but the 6GB one seems pretty cheap. It's not Firewire, but the new 20GB one has USB 2.0.

-

Re:*Very* interesting

[rthille]

If you just want a portable MP3 player that can also record from a built in microphone, then look at www.mydivaplayer.com

I think their 64MB player is under $100, and it takes compact flash as well

What it's missing: 802.11b

[torpor]

Hmm ...

Not sure I like the idea of using MP3 for sample recording (lossy), but it would be really, really sweet for recording live acts.

As a musician, and as a music lover, I'd really like to see live acts offering outputs from the mix desk ... or even better, if this thing had *802.11b*, then we could all just record the gig with the thing in our pocket.

Betcha any money we'll see that within the next 2 years ... walk away from that gig with a good recording, which you paid for with the price of admission.

Beat *that*, RIAA ...

Re:What it's missing: 802.11b

[sphix42]

Live acts have been offering soundboard patches for years. The Grateful Dead being the most famous.

http://db.etree.org/shncirc/ has just some of the bands and their shows that are in circulation and http://btat.wagnerone.com/ has a list of just bands that allow taping.

While some of the bands do not allow sbd patches, many do. Those that don't allow sbds do allow audience recordings.

Re:I don't think proffessionals will like this muc

[Anonymous Coward]

ogg sucks ass and so does all the rest of thet free software shit. are you RMS' whore?

Yuck

[yoink!]

ALGORITHM

ISO/MPEG1 Audio Layer III (MP3)

DATA RATES

32, 64, 96, 128 kbps

AUDIO MODES

Mono, Stereo

SAMPLE FREQUENCIES

16, 32, 44.1, 48 kHz

MICROPHONE AUDIO INPUT

Input Level: Adjustable -60 to -40 dBu

Impedance: unbalanced 600 ohms

A/D Conversion: 18-bit.

Connector: 3.5mm Stereo Mini-Jack

It's strange that companies can try to find such outlandish uses for such useless devices. This device, if it is inexpensive, migh be alright for sound design students who want a quick copy to review their work in live arenas but seriously, Minidisc players are widely available, and include a TOSlink interface, alowing for recording and playback without using cheap A/D and D/A converters typically found in consumer audio gear. With the wide availablitiy of Sony's Portable DAT walkmans, ( not to mention the zip drive size of Tascams professional DAT recorders), and the increasing number of main-mix-down digital outs on live sound boards, what we see here is a chunk of plastic barely ready for use by anyone other than a highschool journalist with a cheap microphone. Luckily a lot of the well thought-out live venues will include some sort of stereo or multrack device for capturing any performance.

It astounds me still that as soon as a company marks "professional" on a box that some people continue to assume that such devices really work better, or worse, are better than others. From the already mentioned-above point of low-bitrate encoding, lack of information on which (and I think those of you who compile a lot of mp3s would find this very important) on which CODEC is used. Add to that relatively skimpy 18 bit converters, and thin 3.5" jacks, and we're off to a wonderful start. Heck, if this is how we're going to start recording anything, why didn't we just stick with analog tapes. They're cheaper than flash memory cards.

And aren't we tired of reading about the company to come up with the latest, lightly modified MP3 player anyway?

Re:Yuck

[NeMon'ess]

The mp3 compression algorithm takes into account what freqencies are most prominent. Recording a single acoustic guitar in 128kbps can produce almost artifact free music. Trying to record a five piece band at 128kbps will likely produce quite a few artifacts. ANY journalist can benefit from this because voice and speeches are usually from one source, with a very limited freqency range, even considering the background noise such as an audience, cars, birds...

Because! (With a question.)

[fm6]

Question: What's the advantage to this MP3 recorder over a minidisc recorder?

Because MMC storage is solid-state, lacks moving parts, and is therefore much cooler than discs or tapes. If you don't understand this, you're a technofaggot!

Now that I've destroyed your sense of manhood, would you mind answering a question? What do you consider a "decent mic" for portable applications? Like recording meetings? Not too bulky and easy to set up. I own a Sony M-100mc, which integrates a decent mic into a microcassette recorder. Works good, but having to use serial-access media is a pain.

Re:Because! (With a question.)

[tapin]

My "moving parts" setup can get me great-sounding audio recorded at 44.1/48kHz and the equivalent of roughly 1600 kbps for over three hours continuous. This "cool" solid-state device is not only lossy and has a really low capped bitrate, it'll only record for about a half-hour at its highest quality. I'll stick to my DAT setup, thanks. Call me when you've got this thing recording at at least 192kpbs for at least 74 minutes -- by then you'll have a solid-state minidisc recorder.

To answer your question about decent mics -- if all you're doing is recording meetings, even the cheap-but-good mics at Sound Professionals would probably be overkill. Most of their mics are tiny ("stealth") units that you could easily just toss out on the meeting table, and they're good enough to be able to pick up voices without too much background noise just fine.

Re:Because! (With a question.)

[fm6]

Thanks for the tip. I thought the irony in my "moving parts" comment was obvious, but I guess not.

why not wait and get a nomad 3?

[hex1848]

nomad 3:

20GB hard drive

USB and FireWire ports

MP3, WMA, and WAV support

Upgradeable firmware

MP3 and WAV recording

Scroll wheel

Lithium-ion battery

Compare that with 272 min's of 128k rate mp3 recordings. The only real drawback is the $400 pricetag. But then again, we still dont have a price on the Sountainer.

Re:why not wait and get a nomad 3?

[Skip666Kent]

Firewire and wav recording capability.

That's pretty much all it takes to blow DAT's and MD's out of the water.

Microphone Connections / Alternatives

[stereoroid]

Another reason why this is definitely not a professional device: the microphone connection is a stereo 3.5mm jack. I would expect to see at least a 1/4" balanced jack per channl, ideally XLRs with phantom power.

There are better alternatives out there:

• Sonifex Courier (as used by BBC and NPR - serious kit.
• Marantz PMD600 series (semi-pro, good connectivity).
• MiniDisc systems (some of them), as you know.

And, in the Vaporware corner, the Shine MP3 Recorder for Handspring Visor!

Re:Microphone Connections / Alternatives

[jandrese]

Warning Rant ahead

Good thing this isn't priced like a professional kit. The Sonifex Courier is a nice bit of kit, but it will set you back ~$3000us retail. I bet this is aimed at the people who don't spend >$1,000US on every piece of audio equiptment they buy (even the cables!).

Maybe it's just me, but the audiophiles on Slashdot never seem to have a sense of "good enough," and many of them have trouble with the concept of a price/performance tradeoff.

End of rant

Re:Microphone Connections / Alternatives

[stereoroid]

A coupla comments on your comments to my comments:

You don't need to be a audiophile to hear what's wrong with MP3 at 128 kb/s - I really don't like what it does to metallic sounds e.g. cymbals in particular. In this case, it's not so much about audiophilia as it is about professional quality hardware, I think, considering the headline on the /. article. Balanced mike connections are not a luxury when it comes to the kind of condenser microphone used to record vocal or orchestral performances in any detail (e.g. a soloist or a church choir). With even the Marantz PMD690 I linked to (RRP $1,499), uncompressed PCM format is available if you need it, as well as MPEG I Layer II (MP2) for longer recording times.

However, you can get a DAT machine for much less than that, or even record direct to a pro standalone CD-R for well under $1,000, I think (examples).

Me, I'll just wait until I really need something like this before I spend kilobux..!

Re:Microphone Connections / Alternatives

[libertynews]

Hey, thanks for remembering us! But we're not Vaporware, we're just not in production yet. Beta testers have real units and are using them as we speak.

Documentation and Open Source software is available from our website at www.shinemicro.com, and the author of PocketAPRS has one and is in the process of porting his program over to our module.

Brian Lane
Lead Programmer
Shine Micro
Home of the SM2496 Visor Module

Re:Microphone Connections / Alternatives

[stereoroid]

Whoa - I can only offer an apology for getting that one wrong! I admit to being a little cynical about something that sounds too good to be true, but when you get it out the door, I think you'll find a market waiting..!

One suggestion: in your marketing, please don't forget to include Europe, especially the UK, which is a huge market for AV gear these days. For music, everyone reads "Sound On Sound" and "Future Music", so make sure they know what's coming out.

Good luck...

Seriously

[sulli]

I would use a laptop. An iBook would be a much better choice. Record as real WAV files, then export to MP3 whenever necessary.

Re:I don't think proffessionals will like this muc

[fuali]

A) Lack of pro-quailty connection. (XLR, TRS, or even just balanced etc)

b) Lack of Quality Mic Pre. Something that small can not carry the components of a decent "professional" microphone pre-amp.

c) Lossy compression. Even the MiniDisc(tm) is lossy, fine for voice, but has limited headroom and has an equivelant sampling rate of 32khz. They do it smart tho removing the ugly and invisible frequency ranges, rather than just chopping them of the top. It is still lossy.

The industry standard will be the industry standard untill some makes a field recorder that has the same or better specs, or the same or smaller size, or the same or less money.

curcumvention device

[upt1me]

This device could easily be used to curcumvent copy protection on the new copy protected cds, would that make it illegal under the DMCA?

SHN format required

[pyite69]

They really need to support CD quality format, which is
a WAV file, or some form of lossless compression of one.

It is only about 4x the size of a 128k mp3, but worth it.

Re:SHN format required

[Anonymous Coward]

Nine.

Nine times the size.

Re: it does make a difference

[pyite69]

The taping community "standardized" (as much as is
possible) on Shorten (SHN), which is lossless compression of wav files. Check out http://etree.org
sometime.

Comparing true CD quality vs. a 128k mp3 definitely
makes a difference, especially on nice home audio
equipment. Perhaps in a car or with headphones it is
less discernable but still important. I use 128k mp3 in
my car, but I would never try it on the home theater.

The key benefit to using lossless compression wherever
possible, however, is to take away the degradation with
each generation. People will make mp3's into CD's, and
then someone else will rip that into mp3 again... etc. That
would be unacceptable.

Re: it does make a difference

[night_flyer]

since when is "tape" CD Quality? most reporters and concert bootleggers use a cassette tape to record their information...

Nokia 5510

[simong]

One of the Nokia 5510's multitude of bangs and whistles is that it's not only an MP3 player but a recorder as well, from the inbuilt radio or line in. 64Mb should be plenty for a couple of hours of recording. There's a rumour that it can also be used as a phone as well.

Re:Nokia 5510

[jojo1835]

If I'm going to go for a crappy MP3 recording, I'll use my Compaq iPaq. It's junky, but it'll do 8,000 Hz, Mono all the way up to 44,100 Hz 16Bit Stereo. No external mic, but I'm sure you could rig one somehow. Plus, with a 1Gb Microdrive, I can store as much data as I want.

Don't forget Junis!

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet Junis would like one of these!

if they could just put xlr connectors on it

[slapshot]

and allow uncompressed pcm recording, it would be a real tool

Due in April, $475

[ChrisCampbell47]

I volunteer for a non-commercial radio station. Our Marantz wandered off so I'm in the market for one of these.

I just got off the phone with the U.S. distributor (Harris Broadcast) for Orban. The Sountainer (great name guys) will be available in April at an MSRP of $475. The distributor said that Orban is still tweaking the design.

This was developed by Dialog4, which was purchased by Orban last week.

Also, for the folks who are whining about bitrate, please note that the primary market for this is the broadcast industry, for field recording use. "Field recording" means a single mic pointed at someone's face or perhaps a stage performance, not a multi-mic studio mixdown. 128 kbps is more than adequate for this, especially when you consider that the broadcast medium (e.g. FM radio) usually ends up being the quality bottleneck (spectral bandwidth, stereo separation, etc.).

Re:Due in April, $475

[sigsegv_11]

"Field recording" means a single mic pointed at someone's face or perhaps a stage performance, not a multi-mic studio mixdown.

Actually, I tend to think of "field recording" as recording a live performance (with many mics) through a mixer. I've played countless gigs where it's been done, usually with a DAT. This little gizmo would work quite well for recording a live gig -- better fidelity than a cassette, cheaper than a DAT. It would also be great for an up-and-coming artist who can't afford a DAT machine (although they are becoming less expensive). At least he/she would have a demo recording of decent quality.

Although, I'm sure it will be used for more than a few bootlegs..

Re:Due in April, $475

[Binhexboy]

Things to keep in mind with Orban. They have a history of dropping products when the troubles start. Take for example the Airtime Digital Cart system that lasted about 2 years I think. I work for a station that dropped huge cash (1/2 million) into this product - that never worked like it was supposed to. And they discontinued it... it is now virtually worthless. Who would buy it from us?

Stick with things that have a track record... personally I prefer the Mini-Disc they are cheap flexible - you can edit with them while in the field. They are great for archiving. Trust me, you'll love them - just find somebody who uses them in the field and I'm sure they'll vouch for me.

Re: it does make a difference

[asv108]

Most reporters and concert recorders use DAT, not cassettes as the recording medium. People stopped using cassettes over 10 years ago.

I see exactly two uses...

[SmittyTheBold]

There are two things this might be useful for:
1) Really crappy bootleg recording. It's the intended use, sure. But nobody with any experience or sense will use it for that.

2) College students who want to take notes. With the 32kbit rate, it would be great for recording long lectures.

In light of those two uses, I see the primary market being college students who maybe think they can be bootleggers on the side. It's not the world's biggest market, bu never understimate the willingness of people my age to spend money on (almost) useless crap ;)

there are better solutions. . .

[mossmann]

. . . for recording live music from a mixing board. Check out this guy's setup:

http://www.dangottesman.com/

fairly modest but extremely effective. It isn't as portable as the Sountainer but much more portable than a band's PA system.

I can see why the Sountainer would be cool for journalists or musicians who want to sample found sounds, but I wouldn't be surprised to find better solutions for those applications too.

more limitiations for pros

[neurojab]

Aside from it's horribly low bitrate and low capacity, this thing sports neither balanced inputs nor phantom power for condenser mics. On the upside, the mic input is low impedance, but I don't know where to find unbalanced low-z mics. That means you need a bulky transformer/XLR adapter at the recorder... The adapters to use this thing are bigger than the device itself. What sort of pro would use this? Possibly the same pro that uses Peavy equipment ;)... This is useless in the pro field, but could possibly be useful to the garage band scene to send in demo mp3s to a record company (who'll either sign them up or kick them in the nuts... wait, I'm repeating myself). Could a garage band afford this? Maybe, but probably not. This thing would be more useful for reporters, but it's lacking a phone input for taping phone interviews, and a limiter for compressing the dynamic range. Almost has a market, but not quite.

Archos Jukebox recorder has done this for a while

[scum-o]

Try the Archos jukebox recorder It has a 6 Gig drive in it, batteries last for ~10 hours, records directly to mp3. Has USB and works with linux. What more could you want? There's also a 20 Gig version. Url here

IPod

[simon_cockle]

I seem to remember one of the chips used in the Ipod (Texas, I think) supports real-time mp3 encoding.

The Ipod os doesn't support this but with modification/hack?

Which encoder are they using?

[tangent3]

There are various MP3 encoders, and the most common ones seen are Xing's, Franhoffer's and the Open Source LAME's. I believe odds are they licensed the encoder from Franhoffer. Xing's suck and LAME has many legal issues. Can anyone confirm which one they are using?

From CEO: Note to product development

[Ooblek]

1. We have just discovered most journalists don't generally have a console feed to plug into this thing.
2. Most line input levels from broadcast equipment is at +4 or +8 dB, while we do -20 to 0 dB.
3. The majority of professional equipment is going to need an XLR, 1/4" stereo, or TT to the consumer size mini-stereo plug adapter. This is not easily made in the field.
4. Most artists don't know jack about input/output line levels or how to make a cable that interfaces with their mix of consumer and broadcast equipment.

Note to self: Hire an audio/broadcast engineer to work on the development team.

Re:Archos Jukebox recorder has done this for a whi

[NeMon'ess]

What more could you want?

How about more battery life to go with the excessive hard drive? Unless I'm on assignment somewhere in which I don't have access to a computer, 256MB is plenty of space. Did you think about batteries? The Archos doesn't use ordinary alkalines, do you want to carry the AC adapter to finish filling the HD? The new mp3 recorder is tiny: 62 x 110 x 24 mm, and incredibly light: Weight 140 g (incl. 2 AA Batteries). So which would you pick mister journalist?

Serious Vaporware

[n6mod]

They showed me this at NAB last April. This company actually has a pretty good product offering for using MP3 for radio remotes. ISDN is very common in Europe, and you can do a better-than-FM broadcast quality remote over a single ISDN line if you have realtime MP3 codecs. This is aimed squarely at journalists, and despite what the whiners in the audience may think, 128kbps MP3 is better than FM broadcast by a good stretch.

If they'd actually ship it, it might be worthwhile.

And let me say this again:
No fixed-point, No OGG. Deal with it.

yeah...

[Anonymous Coward]

hi, when I want to record a 'live feed' off the 'mixing board', I use a fucking dat thanks.

useful device, but idiot reporting (as usual)

Waiting for the student solution....

[Anonymous Coward]

Why doesn't anyone ever think to put together something that students might be able to make use of?

I've gone through a lot of $ trying a ton of mediocre devices. Is it really THAT difficult to have something to record lectures into a format that can then be converted to an mp3 format?

I think I can shed some light...

[andaru]

I used to work at Orban as a software engineer.

The company used to be owned by Harman Int'l and was part of their broadcast group. They made equipment for radio and TV stations. They did not try to sell into the pro audio market, nor the consumer audio market. Harman has plenty of other companies which specialize in these other (and very different) fields, and they didn't want Orban products competing with Lexicon products competing with Harman/Kardon products.

Orban has since been sold. It is still primarily in the broadcast audio field, so its focus is still on the radio and TV markets, but it no longer has this specific incentive not to compete in other fields.

Here's what I think happenned: Soundtainer is really nothing more than a really snazzy device for recording voice only in the field in two situations 1) recording voice with the intention of transcribing what is said to text, and 2) recording voice with the intention of broadcasting to a medium (AM/FM) which is already so compressed that the low quality makes very little difference. Orban decided, "hey, as long as we are selling this MP3 recorder to the broadcast market, let's try to sell it to musicians and consumers." This is not something that would have happenned in the old days under Harman, when Orban had a strict market identity and a parent company to enforce it.

In my opinion, Orban is probably going after markets which it should stay out of, but it is doing it with the idea that it is a freebie, since they have this device to market to whomever they please. But marketing to musicians and consumers is a totally different beast than marketing to a corporate community (the broadcast industry), and I think they may find that it is more than they can deal with.

So, having sort of justified the existence of this thing, I will also say that, since one of its primary uses would be for transcription, they should have built in a crappy mic. The built in mic would also make it more palatable to consumers who just want to record their children's first words, etc.; however, this was originally designed as a broadcast oriented device, and most reporters would prefer to use a lapel mic over a built in anyway (or a hand-held for interviews).

It would be really neat if it were a device suitable for use by professional musicians, but it appears that it really was not designed for that purpose, it is just being marketed that way to make an extra buck (which will probably be immediately lost due to the costs of setting up consumer support - keep in mind, Orban is used to selling their equipment to companies, not people).

The SM2496 does most of this

[libertynews]

The SM2496 soundcard module for the Handspring Visor already has most of these features. It is still in Beta testing and we need to finish off the software, but it can record and play MP3s. It has a single MMC slot and fits flush in the Visor's Springboard slot. It can also be used as an amateur radio modem (1200bps APRS position reporting), or anything else you can use a PC soundcard for.

And it could support Ogg Vorbis if someone had the time to port it to the 160MHz TMS320C5416 DSP that we are using.

Brian Lane

Lead Programmer

Shine Micro

Home of the SM2496 Visor module.

Feeding the troll...

[fleeb_fantastique]

Well, obviously I give a shit. And I'm certain that I ain't all that special (hence the nickname 'fleeb').

Why Ogg?

• It doesn't suffer from patent envy.
• It provides superior playback-to-bitrate.
• 'Ogg' is one syllable, 'MP3' is three.

Ah.. about that 'low quality' quip...

Provide me with any reported double-blind aural analysis between MP3 and OGG that shows MP3 as the winner. So far, I have only seen reviews in favor of OGG. And in my own observations OGG does a fine job.

Re: What do you meen in 2 years...

[Anonymous Coward]

We already do... ^_^

www.etree.org the band taping community of choice.

We seem to have a contradition in terms...

[Wakko Warner]

"Professional" and "MP3" do not go together.

I'll ditch my DAT decks when someone comes up with a working S/PDIF hard disk recorder.

- A.P.

NPR sound union nixes portable recording

[TheSync]

Check out this article:

Unionized technicians at NPR rejected a contract offer Jan. 11 [2002] that would end longstanding rules governing who at the network can record audio on location, mix pieces for broadcast and perform other duties...NPR management proposed the contract to take advantage of new digital technology that renders analog tape machines obsolete and makes it easier for producers to finish taped reports. Technicians, some of whom spend an estimated 65 percent of their time mixing pieces, worry that the contract might make their jobs obsolete as well.

Tascam

[markj02]

Tascam also has a portable MP3 encoder, aimed at live music recording. It's a little larger, but it also records at higher bitrates, has more inputs, and has a CF slot.

Space = 4.4hours, longer than battery life.

[billstewart]

256MBytes / 128kbits/sec = 2*1000*8 = 16000 seconds. = 266 minutes = 4.4hours. So assuming you buy enough memory, at the best sound resolution the doggy thing can give you, that's 4.4 hours. According to the blurb, the battery life in recording mode is 4 hours, with presumably big honking batteries, though they'll support 8 hours of playback. Presumably you'd only use the lower recording speeds if you didn't buy the maximum memory, or if you've got an AC adapter to keep the thing charged during an all-day recording session.

Assuming the MMC format of memory adjusts in price to match the other flash formats (CF, Smart-Media, etc.), the price will lag a bit but gradually become affordable. The real questions are whether the box can use bigger memory cards when they become available/affordable, or whether 256MB is the most it'll ever accept, and whether the software is flash-upgradable so you can do 192kbps or 256kbps once you can afford the extra memory, or whether you'll decide that 18-bit A/D converters aren't good enough to bother encoding at higher speeds.

You missed the Golden Ears joke...

[billstewart]

He said that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference for a Megadeth concert. He's not talking about the New York Philharmonic here, or Pavarotti, or even a live Phish show. He's talking about stuff that was megadistorted *before* recording, where the real issue is how much volume you can get during playback and how much beer you've got around...

Advantage: Matrix

[cheesyfru]

Despite the gross limitation of the 128kbps sound quality (ugh), this device has one incredibly compelling feature for the concert taper. It is able to handle both microphone and line in (from the soundboard) *simultaneously*, called a matrix. Before this, it took a *lot* of equipment in order to do this (on the low end, a small mixer and a DAT deck or on the high end, a small recording studio).

Why does that matter? Recordings made with *only* microphones sound very distant, they contain a lot of croud noise, and are unusable for professional recordings. Recordings made from *only* the soundboard sound really flat and thin, you hardly pick up any audience at all, and often times in smaller venues, some instruments aren't even run through the soundboard (such as drums). By combining the two feeds, what results is the best of both worlds, and is how every professional live recording is made.

This device takes a huge step forward in technology for tapers, but not quite a big enough one. For one, the bit rate is far too low. Most tapers are audiophiles, and would never consider using less than 160 or 192, or most would even want it lossless. It's be also nice to offer higher bit rates as well as compressed full-quality (the SHN format comes to mind).

Also, while you get the chance to record mic and line in, it takes these four discrete channels and mixes them in realtime down into the standard 2 stereo channels. In the ideal world, it'd maintain the 4 channels, pass it to the computer that way, and allow you to muck with the levels that way. That way you could shift the soundboard portion ahead a few ms (due to the speed of sound slowing the microphone feed).

Enhance this device with those features, maybe add a bit more space, and you will sell one of these to every taper in the universe. What a godsend that would be!

Yes

[fleener]

Funny, I am a journalist and I use the Archos. It is everything you say it isn't.