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Laptop Methanol Fuel Cells Promised This Week
securitas writes: "Wired tells us that Germany's Smart Fuel Cell is about to ship the first methanol based fuel cells for laptops and other electronic devices. The company says a 120 milliliter fuel cell can power a 15W notebook for 10 hours, and you can refill it without shutting down."
It's a Pit-stop
If only NT could stay up that long.
This is what we want - carry a SIGG flask around to top up your laptop. Add a charger outlet to let you charge your MP3 player, digicam, etc... while on the move and you have the ultimate roaming system.
I wonder if they'll allow them on planes. Not that a few milliliters of methanol seem dangerous compared to the dozens of tons of kerozene you sit on... But it'd sure be nice to be able to play Quake on those long-haul flights!
/max
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
Doesh it *hic* mesh up your *hic* documentsh like *hic* I do when I'm dhrinking methanol *hic* ?
jer
We may be human, but we're still animals
- Steve Vai
Is 15W standard? The power supply for my laptop is 60W, is most of that just so it can recharge the battery faster? Seems like a 60W power supply is a waste for a 15W unit.
The infrastructure for methanol will have to be vastly improved before a methanol fuel cell battery will ever be successful in laptops. I work as an integrator, and I take my laptop on-site for a lot of the jobs that I do. Most days on-site I work for 10 hours or longer on a system, carrying my laptop from place to place. The batteries drain, but my two batteries usually have the life to last through the day. When I get back to the hotel at night, I can plug into any outlet to fuel up the batteries.
With the methanol fuel cell, I would need to carry extra charges with me. On a week long trip out of state, that can be a lot of charges. With the current security measures in place at most airports, I doubt that I would be able to take them on the aircraft. Now I need to rely on the local shops to carry the fuel cell cartridges, which may or may not happen, depending upon my location.
Also, if I'm staying in a hotel, charging my batteries is free. If I use the fuel cell, I could get charged $3 per day or more for using my laptop. That's not much if I can write it off as a business expense, but if it is for my two week vacation to Alaska, it can get fairly expensive.
I prefer the convenience of using chemical batteries. I can charge from anywhere, and in a lot of cases, for free.
"There is no way hydrogen is ever going to be allowed aboard an airplane," Stefener said.
I think this is an overly dismissive statement. Methanol itself is really just a hydrogen storage method. You throw in some carbon to stabilise the hydrogen and as a result, you produce carbon dioxide when the fuel is used up.
There's a lot of work going on to find non-chemical storage methods for hydrogen, such as sponges or matrices that would be explosion-proof. There's no reason to believe that this won't eventually succeed in a safer and more efficient fiel cell than methanol based ones. It will just take longer.
Karma police, I've given all I can, it's not enough, I've given all I can, but we're still on the payroll.
Hmm, the big drawback that I can see is the cost (article quotes $3-5) and equally importantly convenience of refilling the fuel cell.
Good luck to them though.
Where does this water go? Does it evaporate or am I going to have to take my laptop for a pee?
--
billwashere
Will a peaty single malt gum up the works?
I don't know, but it sounds like a terrible waste!
"Information wants to be paid"
The other problem is that planes are closed environments. Just as you can't smoke on a plane, it seems possible that any emmisions given off by fuel cells other then water vapor might also cause them to be banned. It may be that the battery won't be abandoned just yet.
"...With just a brisk pump of your foot, you will never worry about a dead battery again. With just a few pumps of the "STEPCHARGER" you can instantly begin to charge your laptop, cellphone, video camera and much more"
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Will a peaty single malt gum up the works?
The question is: Will the laptop appreciate the fine flavor of its fuel? I rather doubt it. Do what you like with your Scotch, but there's no way I'm putting any of my Cragganmore or Laphroaig into a fuel cell.
--Jim
One of the main thrusts behind developing fuel cells is how clean they are. The only exhaust from the process is water. This is great! However, if the methanol charges for the fuel cells are not rechargeable themselves, we will be adding a MORE exhaust to the environment, in the form of the disposed charger. Depending on how the charger is constructed, this can lead to toxic heavy metals breaking down in the earth.
When charging a standard chemical battery, we rely on the cleanliness of the source powering the outlet. Perhaps this technology might be better applied on a larger scale, such as powering an office building, or a small town.
10 hours of 15 watts is 150 watt-hours, cca 540 kJ.
120ml of methanol burned means about 500kcal of energy - about 2 MJ max retrievable by burning.
This does indeed look nice.
Yesterday was the time to do it right. Are we having a REVOLUTION yet?
Right now the cost of these things is too big, but if they manage to really break into the battery market, it will probably go dow with mass production. Then maybe, as stated in this article also from wired, we can start seein real electric cars...
No gas, just methanol, 33 cents a gallon...
coffee | nose > keyboard ©
If so, I can eat airplane peanuts on my Melbourne to London flight and power my laptop with a strategically placed tube from my MethPort to my... well, if you are here, you've got an imagination...
http://pcblues.com - Digits and Wood
I recall an earlier Slashdot article discussing the Coleman portable fuel cell generator. This would seem like a better solution for the laptop user, as you still have the option to charge from a standard wall outlet, but if you are in the field you could carry a resevoir of methanol and the Coleman for recharging in the wild.
As others have mentioned, the availability of the fuel for these fuel cells is what is going to kill or break it. I wouldn't much mind filling up my laptop while I pump my gas, as long as it only costs me 33 cents extra. You just know if this technology takes off the methanol industry will recognize the demand and increase their bulk prices to be more expensive in smaller quantities. That's how it was with gas and oil when the car became mainstream.
It's going to be a tough haul convincing consumers, especially because most don't see that they *are* acutally paying something when they plug in their laptop or cellphone to charge. You also can't beat the distribution of electrical outlets. There may be a fuel cell depot at every gas station and news stand, but I doubt there will be one right beside your bed.
Personally, I'm still holding off on my hydrogen from air bit, or burning oxygen for fuel. We have plenty of "fuel" in the air, why not use it? And what about energy from plain old H2O we've been hearing about? Burn both the Hydrogen and Oxygen and you have no waste.
Ultimatly, we will have to see. For now I would be for a hybrid battery/fuel cell slot system where you can get the instant fill-up when you need it, but still not be left in the dark when the minimart in All Pains, Michigan doesn't cary your fuel cell brand.
"I'll just chip in a bit for RedHat: I actually have that installed on my university machine." - Linus, '95
The Stepcharger product page says it's "Coming October 2001", and the site hasn't been updated in a while. Look closely at the product picture, and you'll see that the cords are tied together with not a twistie, not a ziptie, but good old electric tape. Methinks the product doesn't get quite as much use (or investor interest) as you might think.
What's your damage, Heather?
can power a 15W notebook for 10 hours,
Anyone know what the typical notebook draws? A brief simpleminded look at my Tosh suggests more than 15W... (label on bottom says 19V, 3.5A. Therefore power is 19x3.5?)
"don't fall into the fallacy of believing that Perl can solve social problems. Maybe Perl 6 can, but that's a ways off"
Your laptop will start to smell like an old steam engine.. You know, those little kit ones you had as a kid.. choo-choo.. And it's oily..
:-)
Are you sure you're talking about the same stuff? I'm only familiar with "meths" as a term from the U.K. and don't think I've ever seen anything labeled as such in this country. Methanol isn't oily. It evaporates quickly and leaves no residue, just like grain or rubbing alcohol. The similarity occasionally causes problems when people try to drink it (it's pretty toxic when ingested).
Older USians may be more familiar with the smell of methanol in the form of mimeograph fluid (used to produce those illegible purple school handouts in the days before cheap copiers and laser printers). I don't mind the smell, myself. It takes me right back to first grade.
I'm still waiting for my year-2000-model flying car...
I can reliable get 5-6 hours with my extended life battery on my vaio under heavy usage. Under typical usage it would go 10 hours.
If battery usage were really an issue with most laptop users, manufacturers could easily hit the 10 hour mark with more efficient/dimmer backlights and underclocked processors (no one needs 1GHz in a laptop anyway).
The problem is that its a rare laptop user that isn't far from an outlet. Sure, some people want to take a jaunt down to the beach to work on The Great American Novel for 10 hours - but those people are hardly enough to provide a strong market for fuel cells in laptops.
-josh
A lot of people don't seem to've noticed that this unit won't exactly be convenient to carry around. Their 25W prototype is 120x160x170mm (5"x6.5"x7") and 2.8kg (5lb)! That's less than a large desktop-equivalent laptop but almost double the weight of some lightweight models. I don't know how many road warriors will really want to triple their carry weight and pay extra money for a few extra hours of runtime. It will probably seem much more convenient and cost-effective to get one of those LiPoly external batteries or something.
Slashdot - News for Herds. Stuff that Splatters.
Did you read the article ?
Methanol is 33 cent a gallon and reaaly mass produced. And guess what, available in any hardware store, burning alcohol that's it, cheaper than dirt.
Methanol is by itself almost completely non-toxic; the danger arises from the metabolic breakdown products.
When you ingest ethanol (aka grain alcohol), alcohol dehydrogenase (an enzyme)catalyzes the oxidation of ethanol to acetaldehyde. If you oxidize acetaldehyde, you get then get acetic acid, which can then be oxidized to carbon dioxide.
Conversly, when you oxidize methanol (aka wood alcohol), you get formaldehyde. If you then oxidize that, you get formic acid. The formaldehyde and the formic acid are both toxic with formic acid being the more toxic of the two. The formaldehyde attacks the sensitive protein in the retina making you blind while the formic acid is what kills you.
Because the rate limiting step in methanol oxidation is availability of alcohol dehydrogenase, the clinical treatment for methanol poisoning is, you guessed it, to give large amounts of ethanol. Because the alcohol dehydrogenase has a higher affinity for ethanol than methanol, giving you ethanol will keep the methanol from being catabolized. The "unprocessed" non-toxic methanol can then be cleared by the kidneys.
Also, it should be noted that the prohibition on distilling has absolutely nothing to do with public safety. It is a taxation issue pure and simple. I suggest you pull out a history text and read about something called the Whiskey Rebellion.
Wouldn't it be more practical to equip passenger seats in planes with outlets? Or where else you can't find one?
It sounds like just like razors and razorblades - sell a cheap razor requiring proprietary razorblades and lock-in your consumers to your brand.
Until companies snap out of this mindset I don't see the technology taking off. You can still make a massive profit by selling them for a buck each or even making refillable ones and your customers will love you for it. The first company to get a clue is likely to see their sales rocket.
Why would I want to pay $3 to "charge" my battery when I can plug into any electric outlet and get a charge for free? Hexk, I can usually find an outlet in the airport waiting rooms and charge up while I'm waiting for my delayed flight. What is the benefit here?
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Can someone comment on why these fuel cells use methanol instead of isopropyl alcohol? Is it a matter of efficiency, or is the reaction not acceptable for some reason (e.g., byproducts, manufacturing process)?
Isopropyl is much more easily available (most hotel gift shops even carry it, not to mention every grocery and drug store). If the fuel cells were consumer refillable with isopropyl, they would be accepted by the market much more easily.
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
I thought I'd wrap up a number of points in one post rather than make several replies:
"Also, if I'm staying in a hotel, charging my batteries is free."
It's not free, the hotels expect you to do it and build it into the cost. If methanol becomes popular with travellers, the hotel will pop down to the hardware store, buy a couple of gallons of methanol, and offer that free on tap to guests too.
"This will become even worse if cells arrive that run off of pure hydrogen-PEM (proton exchange membrane) fuel cells that run on hydrogen"
All PEM fuel cells run on hydrogen. Methanol based fuel cells simply break down the methanol into hydrogen and its constituent parts before it hits the PEM.
"However, if the methanol charges for the fuel cells are not rechargeable themselves, we will be adding a MORE exhaust to the environment, in the form of the disposed charger."
You don't recharge a methanol cell, you just squirt in more methanol to replace what has been used up.
"Ok, fine methanol works as a safe hydrogen storage method, but I was under the impression that fuel cells use hydrogen AND oxygen to create electricity and as a byproduct create H2O. Where does the water go?"
Methanol is 50% oxygen, 37.5% carbon and 12.5% hydrogen. So yes water will be produced and there must be some drainage tap (so you will have to take your laptop for a pee on the plane). There will also be carbon deposits you will have to dispose of. I wonder also how often the PEM has to be changed, as carbon will clog it up if not effectively filtered out.
There are plenty of fuel cell articles at Future Energies, including how a fuel cell is heating my local swimming pool! Check it out.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Elementary chemistry (and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics) strikes again!
The energy to break the molecular bonds in H20 is always going to exceed the energy released in the reaction of Hydrogen and Oxygen to form water.
Yes, the first reaction is endothermic, and the second is exothermic, but you're never going to get out more than you put in.
--No one. It's just my Inspiron.
dinner: it's what's for beer
We seem to be developing some weird urban legends relating to electronic devices. My cable TV company ordered me not to install an FM splitter on my own -- if not done by a "trained technician" (snicker), it might cause airplanes to fall out of the sky. Many gas stations now ban people from talking on their cells while fueling, because somebody told someone that they'd heard somewhere that a gas station was destroyed when sparks from a cell ignited the fumes. (Think about it, what has more circuitry, a cell phone or a car?) And of course, flight attendents have all kinds of vague safety rules they have to enforce, most of which they don't actually understand. So you can't use your computer if it has a CD drive, because somebody thinks lasers are an issue. And somebody decided "anything with an antenna"...
A butane cigarette lighter is potentially more explosive, because butane is a gas at room temperature and pressure. Crush the plastic pressure tank and all the butane will evaporate at once, so if ignited it could either give a very hot, fast-burning fire, or an explosion. Methanol is a liquid which will burn only as fast as it evaporates.
Anyone know the composition of the lighter fluid used in the old cigarette lighters with wicks? Was that methanol, some other alcohol, or hydrocarbon?
OTOH, I think 120ml = 4 ounce, which is enough fuel to make a fairly impressive fire in a small closed space like an airliner. And don't believe that 10 hours on one cartridge claim -- you aren't doing much with your laptop if it's running at 15W.
"sniff sniff... what is that Smell?"
"my laptop, I ran out of regular methanol so I found a natural source.... did you know that pig farms capture and store the methan gas from the pix excrement?"
I can see the mother earth news neophites are gonna havbe fun with this!
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
With all that good information, I was surprised you didn't mention antifreeze. Years ago, antifreeze was made with ethanol. Farmers put antifreeze in their tractor tires to help keep them from having to refill the tires every time the weather changes.
Now here's the funny part. People used to go looking for drinks in the farmers' tires. That wouldn't be too bad in itself, unless you're the farmer. But then a few years ago, they changed antifreeze to methanol, instead of ethanol. So the younger generation, upon hearing the older generations stories of drunken nights in fields, decides to go try it. Now we've got farmer Jones field full of blind, methanol poisoned high school students.
I really get a kick out of stories like this. I really like those Darwin Awards, too, though. *shrug*
It's easy to stand out when the general level of competence is so low.
I can see it now at HardOCP:
I just modded my laptop, not only does it have a clear case, a liquid cooled CPU but I put on a 4 barrel micro-holly carb with a supercharger on on the fuel cell and MAN does that baby purr.
With this puppy I can whip any ground based gamerw while in flight. Just kick it into overdrive!
make Linux, not Microsoft. sin(beast) = -0.809016994374947424102293417182819
What do you wanna bet that fuel cell-powered laptops will be banned from airlines because of their volatility and possible use as a weapon? 120 ml of methanol is enough to start a reasonable sized fire, or perhaps even enough to be used in some sort of explosive device. That would be kind of ironic, because long flights are when you'd most want the longevity provided by a fuel cell.
/.
Your batteries also produce waste chemicals as they generate electricity to run your devices. Where do those chemicals go? Think about it.
The DMFC technology doesn't need cooling to the degree that other laptop parts do - in fact Li-Ion batteries might get hotter than a DMFC cell, according to the inventors.
I wonder why the article doesn't talk about traditional recharging from a wall outlet? As I understand it, DMFC is an outgrowth of PEM technology, and generic PEM cells can be "run backwards" to recreate their fuel mix - much like a traditional battery, but with the additional requirement of avoiding carbon poisoning of the membrane.
--Charlie
I'm sure their "refueling" procedure involves a special tool designed to avoid spills. Methanol can be absorbed through your skin, but if you have a proper system in place you can do it safely. As for using ethanol instead of methanol, you can't just substitute one alcohol for another and expect it to work...
Whereas with liquid fuel, I'd have to worry about extra sloshing out, easier combustion and availability (not to mention price).
If they did that, they wouldn't sell much product.
And what about some chineese manufactured notebook that got dropped on concreate 5 times and is still in use by some poor (now probably blind) lamer?
If you drop a lithium ion battery that much, it too will leak. Dropping electronic equipment is bad.
Besides, what percentage of methanol gets to the exaust? Id does have some exaust fluids (gases?), doesn't it? I don't think the proces is that perfect.
These people are chemists and know more about this than you or I. I'm sure they aren't going to release a product that's going to kill people.
There are plenty of things around your house that can kill you. Drinking a bottle of ammonia would be bad, drinking bleach (or even spilling it on your skin) is bad, drain cleaner is extremely dangerous, insecticide will kill you as well as insects, etc etc. It would be ridiculous to say we should all stop using bleach and go back to water and sand just because if you happen to drink a bottle of bleach you'll be in serious trouble.
Don't worry about it so much...
You're always going to put more energy into a storage device than you can effectively get back out. We can't all carry coal fires and turbines around with us. If these fuel cells are more reusable and more energy-dense than conventional batteries, they win. Even if you have to put a little more energy in per unit out.
This, of course highlights the stupidity of current FAA regs on what can be carried aboard aircraft these days. Leaving aside the possiblity that I'll have an easier time hijacking a plane by beating people with my shoes than threatening them with a nail clipper...
Lighters (and likely these methanol cartridges) are banned on board. Yet I can carry my Lithium-Ion powered Magnesium laptop on board. Have you ever seen a Magnesium fire? Right, but it's hard to light. Now, have you ever seen a Lithium fire? Do you know what happens when you short a Li-Ion battery? (Heck some Apple, and I think IBM Li-Ions didn't even need to be shorted)
So we're all allowed to something that approximates a thermite grenade, but they're worried about nail files. [sigh]
Bruce Schneier was right. It's not about security, it's about the appearance of security to convince the sheeple to fly.
You have violated Robot's Rules of Order and will be asked to leave the future immediately.
Can existing laptops using fuel cells later on when it becomes affordable?
That would be awfully nice if we can.
kawai
I'm generally more trusting of corporations than a lot of folks that hang out here. But in the case of banning cell phone usage on airplanes, I can't help but believe the interest is at least partly related forcing people to use the horribly expensive SkyTel system on board, instead of their relatively cheap cell phone time.
:-)
I can just see them pulling the same thing with fuel cells. Under the guise of "safety," they'll make more bucks by banning fuel cell refilling, forcing you to plug into their special outlets (or use their special "safe" fuel cell fuel) for a fee. Watch for it
(I just wish the airlines would focus upon making money through transportation, and making that a pleasurable experience so do more of it, rather than gouging us every step of the way on extras. Heck, you have our money for the ticket, make us happy with a few cheap extras, and we'll be back for another ticket.)
-me
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
In this article, I have seen atleast 15 people mention hydrogen. This system does not freaking use HYDROGEN. It uses Methanol, a very aboundant byproduct of wood, manufactured easily and cheaply. It's used for a number of things: decontamination, and general pourpose solvent being the 2 big ones.
Nope. Plastics and gasoline additives are the two big ones.
As far as it being a clean source of energy.. I'd hesitate on calling that shot. They use energy from (possibly not directly from) fossil fuels to get the stuff in the first place, and seeing as how wood is a major source of it, deforestation is a problem, isn't it?
In this article, I've seen at least 150 people mention wood. The majority of methanol is not made from freakin' WOOD. The annual production in the US is 35.7 million tons per year. If all this methanol was made of wood, the entire Earth would have been stripped bare of trees decades ago.
The majority of methanol used today comes from reforming natural gas (methane). Here is a paragraph from a major manufacturer of methanol:
Methanol is a primary liquid petrochemical made from renewable and non-renewable fossil fuels containing carbon and hydrogen. Also known as Methyl Alcohol (CH3OH), it is manufactured from synthesis gas, a combination of carbon oxides in hydrogen produced from natural gas. Methanol is then synthesized under pressure in a catalytic process and the crude methanol is purified to chemical grade by distillation. Natural gas is the feedstock used in most of the world's production of methanol and typically represents the most significant cost component. Methanol is a chemical building block used to produce formaldehyde, acetic acid and a variety of other chemical intermediates. A significant amount of methanol is also used to make MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), an additive used in cleaner-burning gasoline.
RTFA again and then follow the link to the American Methanol Institute halfway through the article.
Seriously guys - DONT refil your Trangia when its lit. You'll get away with it a lot of the time, but when it goes wrong you could lose a hand!
Always get SOMEONE ELSE to refil your Trangia when its lit - and sit OPPOSITE them!
So I went and looked for myself. According to the FCC cellular FAQ, their regs ban cell use only when the plane is in the air. (Section 22.925 47 CFR Part 22.) I couldn't find an official explanation as to why, but news reports say that FCC hearings in 1991 raised concerns over interference ground networks. In any case, it's difficult to see why else the FCC would care.
This regulation may or may not make sense technically, but it does exist.
As for use of electronic gadgets on airplanes, that's covered by this FAA circular. Transmitters of any kind are banned. There's nothing specific about receivers or other gadgets, but operators are required to make their own rules banning devices that might interfere with the operation of the plane. So obviously the rules against "things with antennas" and lasers come from the airlanes -- or maybe even individual flight crew.
Here's my last word on the gas station story. Your logic is very interesting, but I prefer to actually count the teeth. In a previous link (I can't be bothered to find and post it again) I referred to a safety expert who reported the utter absence of this episode in his professional literature.