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Unintended Results From U.S. Hardware Dumps In Asia
Izeickl writes: "The BBC has a thought provoking story about old hardware being dumped in parts of Asia. The report 'details a group of villages in south-eastern China where computers from America are picked apart and strewn along rivers and fields.' the article also states 'The report suggested that as much as 80% of the America's electronic waste collected to be recycled is shipped out of the country.'"
"picked apart and strewn along rivers and fields."
What are they trying to do....grow more computers?
Cave, wreck, and deep diver.
After all, it's just the wogs dying, right?
Best Slashdot Co
Yuck! we know there is all kinds of nastiness in computer compunents. How unfortunate that our crap ends up in someone elses yard....Preferred trading status, just isnt as attractive....
It was an anime/manga in which a whole society lived on a planet that was a dump for another society's high tech trash. Enough of the junk worked or partially worked that they were able to make a fairly high tech society themselves; although it was a fairly lawless one. Living off of the trash of others has a psychological impact...
"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children." ~The Amazon Quartet
This is just another example of the "no longer our problem" attitude. I agree with the introduction of cradle to grave responsibility and would love to see this sort of regulation being made retrospective. The bankruptcy courts could not cope though and the problem would not be solved...
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
some years ago i heard almost the same thing with radioactive waste being dumped on the fields.
"shining" future, eh?
in russia though they steal old military computers and use some chemicals to melt the chips and release gold in it.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
maybe that's how junis and those other afghanis are downloading divx movies.
I've been amassing old computer junk in my closet for years. I'm almost to the point where I was going to pay to have them recycled. But damn, for all I know, I'm probably just paying for shipment to China!
I think there has to be an upcoming business opportunity in recycling this stuff, and doing it in an environmentally responsible manner. I'd almost be willing to start the ball rolling myself. Any resources out there for learning how to do it?
psxndc
The emacs religion: to be saved, control excess.
Last I heard from greenpeace about chemical corps just filling up a whole ship with waste barrels and letting it strand on an african shore. It sits there waiting to fall apart andspread it's deadly cargo into the oceans.
Eat more fish they say... contains no mad cow disease... ha !
When will I end this grieving ? When will my future begin ?
For more reading see this CNN article (picked up off AP).
Have anyone seen those graveyards for ships where they are taking them apart? Looks like a scene for a post-nuclear-war movie.
"Everybody knows this is going on, but they are just embarrassed and don't really know what to do about it,"
If we stopped shipping this crap out to other countries, and it started piling up here uncontrollably, I think we'd be forced to find a way to deal with it...it really makes me sick that we use other countries as dumping grounds.
"...today consumers have been conditioned to think of beer when they see a bullfrog..."
Just an example that we need a global recycling system for hardware components. Few countries have implemented laws that demand hardware producers to take back their products and recycle them as much as possible. Such a thing can't be handled by single nations IMHO - or governments at all.
The hardware industry should come together and create binding recycling standards. It is sad that there is still a large share of computer companies ignoring environmental concerns.
Line 9: Argument of type SIGNATURE expected.
This reminds me of a report a few years back that found that most paper being put into recycling bins actually wound up being stockpiled in warehouses because companies weren't buying enough post-consumer paper. Same thing was happening in Austria. It kinda made me a bit cynical about the whole environmental issue. (I still recycle most of the stuff I can, but I always get skeptical whenever a new 'study' comes out on the benefits of recycled materials.)
:-/
But I digress... so, in PA, we're not allowed to throw out computers. We have to take them to recycling centers... well, technically. I still think most people just toss the machines. For the reason that toxic metals will leech into the ground and pollute the water. What a shame that we're shipping all our crap to other countries to pollute.
Humorless sig goes here.
It is only thought provoking if you are like most americans that have never travelled outside the US to see these kinds of things first hand. It actually says more about your lack of awarness than it does about any sort of industrial posture. Russia dumps subs off Japan and Korea. Britain dumps medical waste off the coast of Sri Lanka...Australia dumps scrap metal into the South polar seas...New York City dumps commercial waste into the Atlantic. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's new or newsworthy. Get outside and take a look for yourself. Visit India and the Balkans and the South Seas and Asia. Waste has a meaning you obviously missed during history class.
It doesnt matters who does it or why, th epoint is that its being done and thats bad enough, e-waste practicly ends up killing th eland and making water unusable.
Dont take on the siner, get on with the sin, because the next country around the corner will do the same and the next and the next, its time to focus on the problem and not on who did it.
- Everybody in Denial -
I think two points are worth noting - firstly, for better or worse, the source of the report and its tone are set firmly within the environmentalist camp.
Secondly - this problem is probably the tip of the iceberg, and is certainly a very real threat to the environment in the next few decades. I personally believe we should take significant action now to prevent the need for another Kyoto (where this would be a serious issue) ten years from now.
Apparently California is considering imposing fees on the purchase of computer hardware to cover the costs of recycling.
The question is, if I want to keep the hardware I buy in the closet forever when I'm through using it, do I still have to pay the fee?
appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars
I know around these parts (Eastern MA), I just can't get rid of the stuff. It piles up in closets, clutters up counters, sits in heaps in the corners. Old monitors my eyes can no longer tolerate, strange boards with bus interfaces I can no longer use, old hardrives too small to bother with. Its illegal to put in the trash, and even the "hasardous waste" pickup wont take monitors anymore. As more and more "average" people upgrade old computers, the problem will only get worse. Already I see "dumping" of old eletronics at the goodwill drop sites in the middle of the nights. I don't know what they do with the stuff, since it probably can't easily be sold or scrapped. Electronic waste will be a serious problem in the near future, and not just for our poorer friends in China.
}#q NO CARRIER
Some old linux disks are getting sent over with all that computer hardware. Then all they would need is a reliable source of electricity and a net connection and they could be sending the US *THEIR* trash in 20 years.
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
CNN has a more detailed article regarding this. China, India and Pakistan are main destination for the rubblish.
The situation is quite frightening. Consequently, the groundwater (near Guiyu, China) is so polluted that drinking water has to be trucked in from a town 18 miles away, the report said.
These "high tech" waste is especially hazardous to these poor workers. Medical waste (eg used bandage) usually smells and look nasty, everyone know they are dirty. Villagers usually have no clue toxic heavy metal will leak to groundwater, burning the plastic will generate very toxic smoke... before too late.
Probably, it is now to add a "prepaid" waste recycling fee to new computers....
Thats where i sell all my old shit!
I understand someone puting the full text of an artical up when the source site is slow. But, this is from a BBC site, why can't people just read it on the original sources page?
How can some one get points for posting the full article? It's a link away.
Are you so sure that the title is warranted? Somehow I doubt that this effect is entirely unintended.
After all, speaking as the Ugly American that I am, it seems that the main point is to get the crap we don't want out of the country. Well, shit, mission accomplished there, huh?
What happens to it afterward is not our problem. And frankly, I live in an area once known for its steel foundries, and never known for environmental consciousness.
--saint
How about a really huge beowulf cluster. (with about the power of my palm pilot) but hell it's a cluster
.. a beowulf cluster of those.
:-)
Hook 'em all together and china might get the supercomputing power to match a 1 GHz PIII..
In what way is this informative? The BBC site has proven itself /. and even 9/11 resistant. Are you saying that a site running these operating systems isn't up to the job? Should they switch to IIS?
PS Can anyone get karma this way?
"Under the iron bridge, we fist" - The Smiths, Still Ill
Apparently, I was wrong.
These kinds of things really tick me off. I've recycled numerous old systems, in the hopes that they either went to some good, or were safely broken down, to be used in other applications. Instead, they probably just got dumped in a landfill.
I guess I shouldn't be so surprised, these types of things always happen with recycling. Recycled papers sit in warehouses because companies don't frequently buy post-consumer stock. Glass & tires that were originally planned to be melded together to make a new, cheap pavement wind up sitting in their respective piles. Tires that were supposedly going to be used for recreating habitats for aquatic life are instead burned.
And now, all our old 286s are dumping mercury & lead into China. If my old Vendex Headstart 8086 is sitting over there, instead of being recycled, I'll be very, very upset.
Is there anything we can really do to ensure that our equipment doesn't wind up in some other country's landfill??
And the point is ?
Yes I know this is bad for the enviroment, but the simple fact is its not like China is colony of the US and we are forcing th govt to accept the waste, THEY ARE BEING PAID !!!!!
If CHINA chooses NOT to give a shit about its citizens it on them, and THEY should have to answer for it.
This is NOT about the US, get it understand it and live with it.
Now, the people, well thats unfortunate, it really is, BUT IT THEIR GOVERMENTS(CHINA) FAULT !
Wide spread mass industrial pollution with NO regard to the enviroment is seen on both ends, the capatilist and the COMMUNIST side, the latter aswers to noone and it is thus a fair bit worse in general, no dont belive me ? Ask all the people in eastern europe what things were like during USSR rule.
Ok, so you want an alternative use ? Lets drop all this crap out of B52's on Iraq, and all the US enemies, a hell of a lot cheaper than smart bombs, could you imagine what damage a monitor would do falling form 30000 feet ?
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
Why don't they build a beowulf cluster of these? We know people are still using Comodores in Afghanistan to send emails don't we?
On a more serious note, I've heard of websites in the 3rd world (was it India?) powered by dozens of 486's. Anyone care to confirm this?
Trollem mirabilem hanc subnotationis exigiutas non caperet
but will at least reduce its impact : by choosing to invest in smaller computers using low-consumption chips, this will reduce the amount of wastes.
Just imagine such a beowulf cluster of these.
Now an interesting comparison could be made with cars...
In the sixties, everybody dreamed of a cadillac or a pick up.
Now, they'd rather look for smaller cars.
I think wearable computer or power-palmtops spreadth will clearly result from such pollution problem.
Trolling using another account since 2005.
Buy, buy, buy for America! And don't forget to fly around too! Lets roll baby!
....
Ya, I know, it was just him but Clinton, George I and Reagan.
Guess we can also thank M$ for helping out by pushing the "upgrade cycle" to new heights.
I wonder how many of thoses 486s and Pentiums I could have be used as linux workstations.
No wonder the rest of the world dislikes America.
sigh
Toxic garbage has to be dealt and everybody knows that the cheapest solution always comes first... The transfer of hazardous waste is restricted by a 1989 treaty known as the Basel Convention, but the United States has not ratified it. why am I not suprised??
Migx
They are being dumped in India and China. Already the local population is protesting the long line of ships waiting to unload the crap.
While people are concerned about pollution at WTC site, nobody cares about where the waste is dumped.
Whatever goes up must come down -- even nations and civilizations.
Oh really! :)
Patient: "Hey, Doctor, it hurts when I do this!"
Doctor: "Don't do that."
I was wondering, does this happen in America alone, or does Europe just does thesame thing?
What a waste, so to say. This is maybe a opportunity for some Asians. There are some copper and gold in those old computer (money money money...). The problem is (mentioned in the article) what to do with the rest. Some of the plastics and metals are not reusable, BUT other are.
When I see a story like this at CNN (I don't get cable TV -- did anyone see if this was a TV story, or if they only posted it as a webstory?), it kinda makes me think CNN posted it so that some slashmonkey would submit it, their story would get slashdotted, and they'd cash in on the ad revenue.
Anyone agree? Or think this is just silly conspiracy talk?
that the US abides by? The ones about antarctica maybe? (unless they find oil there ;-)
The only one I can think of is the copyright convention, which has been embraced and extended too.
How is my problem if people in other countries, far, far away, don't care as much about "preserving their scenic countryside" as they do about eating?
Do you have any links to back up this story?
Why do I keep hearing about USA having not ratified this and that? 'Not ratified' is a nice phrase that doesn't sound like "I'm a greedy, weak coward", which it really means in contexts like this, IMHO.
If you're so big and mighty, wouldn't you feel obligated to be the force pushing those conventions and agreements, not the one trying to squeeze out every last buck you can on the cost of the health of our Mother Earth and living conditions of developing countries?
Think Kyoto treaty for example. I'd be embarrassed to live in the States.
I mean HOW LOW CAN YOU GO, USA?
On the other hand, I'm only waiting for people to start showing what they feel about this madness like they did in 60'ies and 70'ies. That's an era that american PEOPLE should be proud of.
Act before it's too late, THE WORLD BEGS YOU.
The title of this article is Misleading. As stated before here, we pay china and other nations to dispose of these Items. Once we write the check, it's out of our control.
Look at it this way, You take your used car to a Junkyard to dispose of it. It's not worth anything so you pay 5 bucks to get rid of it. Now , the junkyard is supposed to pull the battery, drain the fluids, and strip most of the car down before smashing it, and sending it to the smelters to be melted. But instead, they just roll the car into a resevior and all that oil, battery acid, transmission fluid pollutes the water.
Now, you had a good faith arrangement that the Junkman was to dispose of the car properly, but instead, he didn't - Are you liable for his actions?
IANAL, but once you showed the bill of sale, I seriously doubt that the person who got the car to the Junkyard is.
It's the same issue here. However, the title of the article makes it look like the United States is loading up b-52's with this stuff , and dropping it across the country over there.
I get rather annoyed when people take cheap shots at the United States like this. It doesn't do anything to foster anything but bad will.
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
...before I read anything else, I expected to read about some mechowarrior / android / wireless WAN/ d.net cruncher / cybernetic exoskeleton, being created out of unused computer materials. That would've been the ultimate hack.
I keep having this picture of archeologists in thousands of years in the future going through all of this stuff, and trying to piece together an old PC. no tech manuals, etc.
Alot of their success would depend on the level of their own technology, of course.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Seriously, if the material in computers were in short supply, then there would be profit in recycling computers and companies would be out trying to make a buck doing it. Same thing for paper and any other recycling.
Because this recycling business is driven by fear of a shortage instead of a real shortage, there is not money to be made in it so stuff like this happens.
Here is the story from today's USA TODAY. The IRS is disguising junk as "aid".
What a laugh. 1000 obsolete laptops and desktops.
Most of China is still very poor, and schools there (if any) have unimaginable budgets. In some remote areas, a kid would be fortunate to have a textbook. I wonder why can't US just give China all its old hardwares in *usable* form instead of smashing them. It really doesn't matter how old the machines are, some people will be glad to have it. It would be mutually beneficial in the end.
1. Practically everything in China is recycled. I've seen old folks / poor people rummage through trashbins with tongs looking for whatever is valuable for picking up some cash. This usually is cans or plastic soda bottles, which usually end up being turned into low-quality polyproplene or such.
2. While the cities I've been to in the last five years have considerably cleaned up their act, China still has an enormous problem with littering. Ever seen the commercials showing the roadside trash from the early 70's in America? That's China nowadays.
3. Many electronic components are desoldered and reused by small mom-and-pop outfits that want to get into business, and don't mind cheaper used components. When you've got lots of people who want to get ahead in life, they will use any resource at their disposal.
It has been going on for years and it ranges from this to other toxic/biological wastes. It was very prevalent in Africa (and it may still be) We and other countries would pay small villages 50 bucks a barrel to take our waste. Or, pharm (RX) companies would ask for "volunteers" to test certain drugs etc... Im sure this sort of thing continues, I just thought id state for the record, its not new, and its not just computers.
Eustace
[michael@!!removethis!!fightdot.com
> When other people are doing things which we know are harmful to them and their environment we have a responsibility to try and help deter this act
Horse shit.
How do you tell a totalitarian regime that they should stop harming their environment?
Do you realize that China has population control.
Is it 1 kid, and then you get clipped? ( maybe 2, can't remember.. )
They arrest people and throw them in jail for decades for doing terrible things like speaking out at political rallys.
Screw them. I think we should sell China every bit of garbage we can. It's a win-win situation. We get to get rid of stuff we don't want. We get to have a nicer environment for us, here, in USA. They get to buy stuff they want to buy ( our garbage).
Could you imagine 12 acres full of computers and joysticks? Enclose it like a warehouse, and pick through it. Stuff you don't want, butild glass block enclosure, and dump it in between, so you look like you live in a borg ship. I don't watch startrek, but like techno house would rule.
Society is better now... But look at power shifts. Until we get a world government, then everyone has different goals.
It is more economical to ship these waste to a third world country who can still "salvage" some of the parts. Of course we do not tell them of the toxic components that need to be recycled. 1st world nations are the number 1 creators of toxic waste and dump them onto third-world countries who do not have a clue or whose leaders/politicians can be easily bought.
It has been reported in Philippine newspapers that America left Clark Air Base in the Philippines with a lot of toxic materials left behind causing several scavengers to lose their lives due to these carcinogenic and highly toxic substances which until today they have not removed due to the enormous costs involved not including the negative publicity from such actions. I'm sure not a lot of people know it because it never gets into mainstream news.
... when US signs the Rio treaty for respecting the environment to include a small paragraph about not throwing their PC garbage to other people's yards.
true, that.
moof.
In the not so distant future, this concept will be at the forefront of corporate values for a company to succeed because people will be more aware of the effects of waste and pollution to the environment. For those companies that create a lot of waste without creating systems to properly deactivate or recycle the waste it will be corporate suicide.
Return the bells of Balangiga.
While the practice is questionable (certainly), especially in the case of drug reasearch by RX companies, it is not colonization by any stretch of the imagination.
Not everyone in those countries is rock poor and stupid, and usually those who are such are NOT in power or a position to set policy. These people, desperate or not, can opt to NOT take the money. The liberal press sure likes to write about big corporate america doing onto the little guy what they would not want done to them... what makes you think that these governments can't refuse and use the press to bring it to light (they don't).
Graft has a big element to play, for sure (economic aid is graft in this case as well), but it's not the situation in every instance either.
I have been involved in recycling computer equipment built in the early 80's (mini's and large width pin printers from banks mostly). They have a value still thanks to the gold and other precious, recoverable metals in them. There are PLENTY of US companies begging for this stuff.
Further more, I think it should be law to A)place a small (.5%) tax on ALL electronic items to cover clean up and what not in the US and B)law that interactive computer devices who are still fully functional or possess components that are fully functional should be recycled and/or donated (for a nice tax write-off) to those of lesser means.
Think of big companies and the volume of computers they order and discard every year (State Farm discards 5-10K laptops a year!!!). These working computers could be donated to third world countries for education. These systems are typically only 3-4 years old, and they work. Granted, the kids in those countries would not be learning the latest stuff, but do you think a 5 year old learning how to read and do math cares if it's new or old???
In Minnesota, we have strict laws about throwing out old computers too. In some places (Minneapolis), the laws are taken seriously. In other places (northern Minnesota), they aren't.
However, I was talking to someone who had a relative in the computer recycling business. If they recieved anything that had no resale value (and they frequently did), they'd just ship it to Wisconsin, which has lax landfill laws.
caption should read: 3 men loading pirated copies of 2k server on the new open relay cluster.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
1. We are not forcing this old hardware on anyone. If it's ending up in China or India it's because the people there think they can make some money off of it.
2. Even if they CAN make some money off of it, it's not our fault they throw the exploited "recycled" hardware in rivers. Come on. Crap in your refrigerator and it's going to have some negative affects on your food. Don't complain to someone else because you decided to crap there.
3. If the Chinese government sees this as a problem they should not let the stuff be imported. If it's being imported illegally the Chinese government should have no problem prosecuting (i.e., executing) the offending party.
Do I want my old computer ending up in a river? No. But don't blame me if it does, *I* didn't throw it in a river or asked anyone to burn plastic off its wires...
There are too many other responsible parties here that are DIRECTLY responsible to come after me with some tax or $30 increase on PC sales to try to resolve the problem. You want to solve the problem? Have China ban the practice. If China doesn't see it as a problem then why the hell should we?
Come on, I'm sick of this environmental psycho-babble.
If any of you get/read the New York Times, they have an article on the same topic:
T OX I.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/25/technology/25
NYTimes registration yadda-yadda-yadda.
What is music when you despise all sound?
Interesting? If you know that Bob the Garbage dealer is a no good punk who dumps all the toxic waste into the enviroment, is it a good thing to give him your toxic waste? Is it moral thing to do? Americans.
Everybody knows that we are the evil boys, making noise with deadly toys.
Why does Slashdot insist on distributing metanews?
Most people here complain about media consolidation, information tracking and privacy infringement. The first step to counter these problems is simply to obtain information from the authoritative source.
Looking up this report took approximately three minutes. Why not improve the quality around here by putting researched items on the front page?
Silicon Valley Toxics Coalitions Techno Trash Report
If the US can export hazardous waste to these countries, how is that any different from Colombia sending drugs to the US?
It may sound like twisted logic at first, but think about it.
Country A produces a product that it ships to country B. This product is used by the poor in country B to make some money, but in the process they end up hurting their own communities. Not only that, this product spreads, causing harm in more affluent communities living further away.
Replace "A" with Colombia and "product" with drugs and you have the current drug war.
Or, replace "A" with US, "product" with toxic waste, and you have the current toxic waste dumping scenario.
Think about it.
Instead of charging someone X number of dollars for the cost of recycling, they should charge X*2 number of dollars and then PAY each person who brings in a computer X number of dollars.
That way people would have an incentive to do the right thing instead of just dumping it someplace and the program would pay for itself due to inflation and the fact that not EVERYONE is going to recycle, even if it pays.
As for the inflation angle, it works like this. If someone pays you X number of dollars and Y number of years later you pay them back the same exact ammount of money, well then you're actually paying them X/(inflation_rate^Y) in real dollars. This is why you almost NEVER see interest free loans, the lenders lose money on them. In the case of computers, the lifespan is short enough that the devaluation of the money from inflation would not be so great as to reduce it to nothing.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Hello! This is Junis from South-Eastern China! I am writing this on a rusted PDP-11/34 with 8" disk drives and Linux I found in the river, which I hooked up to the Internet using barbed wire and a 300 bps modem I found under a chicken coop. I write to thank you, USA, for all the computers! It is really helping my country to progress in IT! I also love American culture like martial arts movies, anything to do with Star Wars, and rap! I believe "Temptation Island" and "Baywatch" will be number one shows in China soon!
Yours,
Junis
It's more like a 14 year-old crack addict who'll let you fuck her up the ass for $10 (without knowing whether you're HIV positive) just because she needs the money. Surely this is "market forces" in action. Supply and demand.
"Under the iron bridge, we fist" - The Smiths, Still Ill
Joke
"Under the iron bridge, we fist" - The Smiths, Still Ill
It is not 'a race thing', but neo-colonialisation. Exactly what happens when developed nations take developing countries for a ride.
Tat Tvam Asi
This is typical of the american self centered attitude. Lets face it, america and americans don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and their own little island.
Proof of this can be found in their abandonment of the Kyoto Treaty because it is "It is not in the United States' economic best interest,"
We all live in the same world here, significant pollution in any one section of it will eventualy hurt everybody. Thats why we have global agreements on pollution because they can come back and bite everyone.
This kind of attitude is not "insightful" or "interesting" it is just plain stuipd! You might as well say people who take drugs are the problem, it's not my fault if I sell them! Please grow up and consider people other that yourself for once, if everyone did the world would be a lot better place.
Were it not for their onslaught of ever-more-bloated crap, the replacement rate of hardware would not be anywhere near so insane, and this dumping would be a far smaller problem.
Word 5.1 runs great on a P75. There really has been no reason to upgrade, for most boring PC uses.
Where do I click? Where do I click?
Of course, we usually brought back more from Dayton or Findlay than we took, I guess we must have been part of the solution. ;)
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
This gets modded up? This is a tired, stupid argument.
If it wasn't for the Europeans (aided by the middle east and asia), Americans, ugly or otherwise would be hunting buffalo (and I'd be spearing kangaroos), so no internet for you without the eurotrash.
Reading a few history books suggests that one or two Russians died in WW2, but other then them I'm sure that the USA did it all. Of course, if it was announced that America would stand against Hitler as soon as he started, it is quite possible that a great deal fewer people would have died (and almost certainly no Americans...). However there was no real rush, as no-one was dropping bombs on their homes, nor driving tanks through their streets.
That the terrible suffering and infinite loss of those involved should be sullied by some prat who is quite happy to slur his own and another country's government, but gets upset when someone else offers up their opinion, is sickening, and shows a total lack of understanding, tolerance and maturity, I guess that is what scores on /. though...
I was going to make an on topic comment here, but
It's your problem because we share this planet, no matter how far away "they" are. Responsibility does not end just because the problem is somewhere on the other side of the world. If we allow injustice to happen elsewhere, what is to prevent the same injustice from happening in your own back yard? Self-centered behavior may be something that is honored in our society, but it does not mean its morally correct.
Humanity does not imply "us" vs. "them"; don't be fooled into thinking its "not my problem". Short sighted behavior has a way of coming back to haunt us.
Dumping our trash on some poor nation for a few cents on the dollar is not right - the only reason these countries accept our trash is because it's a revenue stream. So, because a country is poor, it's OK to dump our waste there? It's the whole idea that "because you're poor, you're less important than I am". These countries are less able to manage the difficult and costly tasks required to dispose of toxic waste properly. They don't have the money to property protect their people from the effects of mercury and lead poisoning. They don't have the technical knowledge to put in place preventative measures to protect their population. They cant afford to vaccinate, much less deal with the horrible medical consequences that are the result of improper storage and handling of said waste. Yet we walk in there and offer them some much needed cash, this negates our responsibilities? It becomes their problem because they've accepted it? It's all about our lack of responsibility - we are too cheap and too lazy to manage our problems ourselves.
Compassion should not have a price tag. May you never feel the effects of true poverty and the scorn of the indifferent.
Call your local Rotarian to see if they participate.
The US decided it had too many old PC parts to trouble itself to do anything with, and was even willing to pay someone to take them, even if they made money recycling on the back end. China, offered as paid service, to take those parts off the US' hands.
China decided that it wasn't worth it to recycle them, and has since been dumping them on thier own lands, harming them and their people. They decided it was worth taking the US checks though.
I ask again, why isn't China being criticized?
I mean, do you REALLY find 'littering' surprising from the same country that tortures and kills people simply for following an 'unauthorized' religions, arrests and jails for simply for thinking in anything but proper communist theory, and throws away baby girls simeply because they are girls and boys are more valued?
There's a lot of international traffic in garbage. For example, Kingston, Ontario has sent most of its garbage to landfills in Michigan (which is about 20 times further than New York State, but much more eager to receive it) for at least 5 years now. Toronto was set to do that too, but the Sept 11 events have made border crossing slower, so they're still keeping most of it locally.
is considerable and I'm delighted to have a chance to share my own experiences on the topic in a way that might clarify some of the issues brought up by the article.
Although we often think of motherboards as the thing that holds the CPU, in fact monitors also have motherboards and even your power supply has a little motherboard in it.
One thing these motherboards or printed circuit boards all have in common is that they generally have all kinds of goodies like capacitors and transistors on one side and a bunch of solder holding them on from the back side.
By heating the back side of a printed circuit board with the component side facing down, it is quite possible and practical to remove many valuable and toxic components without damaging them because of the delightful fact that heat tends to rise rather than sink, so by heating the back of the board, you can save all those great little toys. This activity in itself can be quite entertaining. I like to call it "el bueno pinata" because the parts fall to the ground with a delightful clatter like the candy from a pinata with severed entrails.
I must confess that when I started playing "el bueno pinata" as a youngster, I did, in fact, use a propane torch which generated generous amounts of rather toxic smelling smoke. As this is both a cheap and effective technique for getting started in "el bueno pinata," it is probably what the report was referring to.
But let's not just jump to the conclusion that this means it's wrong to try and recycle components that have previously been soldered to a PCB. It just indicates that these people are hesitant about going about it the right way because they haven't seen enough profits yet. But don't worry. There's plenty of room for profits in the recycled electronics market and as the profits grow, the recycling techniques will become more sophisticated as mine have.
I no longer use a propane torch when I play "el bueno pinata" because there were simply too many complaints about the smell and the smoke etc. So, I tried a few different techniques. I tried using a clothes iron, but I found that it wasn't hot enough. Eventually I rigged up a custom device very similar to an iron, but with a greater heat output and I now use that to slowly and smokelessly desolder old TVs, monitors and power supplies. These are generally where the fun is at for my interests so far. But even if you don't want to get into tesla coils and all that nerd stuff, you can at least blow up the capacitors for fun and give the transistors to someone who enjoys such toys.
Once you clean the components off a circuit board, there's not much left and putting it in a landfill doesn't seem to be such a crime although I'm sure they could be further recycled for the metal sandwiched within the board. Either way, the mass is greatly reduced and many valuable parts that are usually for the most part in working condition can be used as is.
In the case of a monitor, all you're left with is a bunch of plastic and the tube itself which certainly should be recycled professionally as it has lots of valuable goodies within. Stripping it to that point though, is certainly worth doing if you care about the recycling and are interested in learning a bit about electronics.
As for power supplies, after you strip out the transformers, capacitors, transistors there's nothing left.
In fact, motherboards may be the most useless pieces of the whole PC for the average PC enthusiast while ironically being the only piece that most people care to deal with because of the warnings on all the fun stuff about "Dangerous Whoo Hoo Inside" It's a pity that the industry assumes everyone should stay and idiot instead of trying to educate the public about how they could safely repurpose some of those parts.
But that's what's cool about Slashdot. It makes up for where the PC industry left to its own devices fumbles the play.
Anyway, couldn't rant like this without at least one reference and that would have to be Sam's Repair FAQs. If you've never checked them out, then I highly recommend them.
For those of you with old hardware laying around, especially burnt our monitors and power supplies, I invite you, moreover I grant you permission to play "el bueno pinata"
they should just sell all those old computers back to westerners on eBay. ;)
Vast amounts of used clothing and old US cars go to Mexico. Some of the clothes are re-used while others are recycled into industrial rags.
If you went shopping around and four or five junkyards quoted you forty dollars to dispose of your wreck, and then you found one who would do it for five dollars, wouldn't you be a little suspicious?
When you see item X going for $100 in the stores, and someone on the street offers you X for $10 (including shipping to another country), you would have to be an idiot to refuse, wouldn't you?
Of course, you won't get gaol time for doing something that is morally wrong, but to believe a business has no idea what is going on after it "signs the check" is crazy. They will have costed various methods of disposal and found the cheapest "legal" method they could.
I do think the article is a cheap shot though, it isn't like America is the only country with old computers, and shady businesses.
I keep having this picture of archeologists in thousands of years in the future going through all of this stuff, and trying to piece together an old PC. no tech manuals, etc.
(A.P. News 25,237 CE)
Archeologists have made a great advance towards understanding the contents of fossilised "hard disks" with the discovery of what they are calling the "Pornsetta Stone"...
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
Also reminds me of something that happened while I was visiting a client in Tokyo.... while riding the high-speed train to the convention center... he pointed to the land surrounding the convention center and said "this used to be ocean... how do you think we got this land?"... I said "I dunno"... He said "every year japaneese throw out old electronics and buy new electronics. We put electronics in bay and build convention center on top.".
Now... I never knew whether or not he was serious - I suspect he was... .but after reading the article - and pondering this... isn't that bad for their environment?
So they take our money and our garbage, and suffer for it. Their decision to make. I won't bother with an analogy or a diabtribe on why this works, I'll just leave it as you're either of the mind to say "So?" or "We have to stop this injustice!". For the second case though, I wonder if you think you have the right to tell me that I can't dispose of my computer in any way I want, and I also wonder how much your morals are going to mean to you when you have to pay $799 instead of $699 for that turd machine at Best Buy. I bet you'll be bitchin then.
www.jackasscritics.com
Broken Household Appliance National Forest where a forest is littered with (surprisingly enough) broken appliances...
Hmm
I know that my company alone disposes of numerous skids of workstations and servers every year. We have tried in the past to use recycling companies and have recently been using a used hardware reseller that charges us a fee to wipe the contents of the drives, but in return shares the profits for all equipment sold (I think we get 65%). The benefit to us is that we get a list of serial numbers that we have disposed of and how they were disposed (recycled, sold, etc..). We probably break even on the financial side. If you are interested in selling (or buying) check out Redemtech.
So rather than blaming the US, in general, you might want to start by considering the people who buy these things and toss the remnants, or the middlemen who make a living carting it there to auction off to them.
... hu hom, no one in the US took care to prevent those people dieing.
... I think again I will get a flaimbaite for this :-/ at least it does not substract form my little karma.
So?
Of course you said: in general.
Its not the US in general which is to blame.
So we have electronic waste in china. Asbest waste in India. A raising level of sea water all over the world (climate/CO2), threatening Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia etc.
So in 15 years some people, yellow this time, not with long beards and turbans, will go somewhere where they suspect to be the cause, the root of all evil. There they will drop a bomb or something similar.
And then we will read again: why do they hate us?
Well, because their children died in the polution of heavy metals, their parents died by cancer caused by asbest or burning plastics, their family or friends drunk in a Taifun.
But
Regards,
angel'o'spehre
Hm
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
China is buying the equipment and then dumping it in China.
Your analogy should have been: Okay, so how about I pay your neighbor to dump my PC in his garden...
Dumbass, read the article.
Do what I did, send out a message on my local LUG saying you have a bunch of old hardware laying around, that's free for pickup.
Before you know it, you'll have dozens of Linux Users clamoring at your door to pick it up for their various projects. You'll get rid of all your stuff, and someone else might actually end up using it!
Hey, it worked for me!
I was talking to one guy that works for DRMO (a goverment agancy that sells old computers and such) He was telling me how they get 1-2 year old Sun servers and cover pot holes in roads with them. I could not sleep all night. They take these Suns that still work and have a good value and just grind them up to fill holes in roads. The reson they can't sell them (this is was the goverment want's you to belive) is that they held top secret information. Hmmm, hello? junk the hard drives but spare the other parts! Thats what they use to do but my guess is that it's "cost prohibitive" now.
This site is in Germany.
hmm... for fun I enjoy launching DDoS attacks against 127.87.42.5
A few years ago I was a graphic design whore conjuring up speaker-support slides for corporate fun-fairs and the like. Every year our outfit handled the National Post (nee Financial Post) Environment Awards for Business, in Ottawa, Ontario, Canda. In the 1997 or 98 show, I distinctly remember some magical gizmo winning the big award on account of its ability to eat old computers and poop out neat little cubes of separated metals and plastic-bits. I can't seem to find anything through Google about it, but I was pretty sure the name of the company that made the award-winning gizmo was called "Shredd-Tech" or something similarly awful. Does anyone else actually know of and/or dimly remember this environment-saving miracle machine? Maybe we could pool our pennies and buy one for India.
I am from a small, grease-loving country in the north called Ca-na-da.
Screw them! I don't care. If they want to accept our trash, that is there problem. We should ship more to the Middle East and cut down the reproduction rate of those fcukers. I am glad I am moving out of California too, pretty soon they will tax the fact that you exhale carbon dioxide and take a dump because its bad for the environment.
www.thecomputerbarn.com
I take stuff there by the "truckload" and end up walking away with decent cash in my hand for my trouble.
Not an attempt to displace any blame here, but the version of this story that I saw said that the waste came from the US, Western Europe, and countries such as Korea and Japan (versus the slant here that this all US generated refuse). Also, are not the Chinese authorities are culpable as well? I don't think that the enterprise described in the report would exist without their approval at some level...
This is a perfecct example my friend ...
The companies that build these things should be made to set up facilities for getting rid of the products when they are no longer used. This would even apply to industries that produce things other than computers.
:-).
Think about it. GE should be the one to pay for getting rid of CFC's from the refrigerators that they manufacture. This would force them to either raise the price of what they sell, or find a better way to manufacture it (without CFC's for instance).
Computers are built with the knowledge that they will be obsolete in a few years, so it should come as no suprise that if they sell X number of machines in one year, that in 3-4 years that many machines will need to be recycled.
At the very least, a law like this would prevent AOL from producing millions of disks that get thrown into the garbage unopened, or from someone even proposing a throwaway product like DIVX (old DIVX, not new Divx
Here's the bit you left out:
Some enterprising people probably realized that they could make a few bucks taking apart old computers and no one would be monitoring their activities and they could make off with a bundle of money while the people who do the real work and handle all the toxic materials get all the health problems and long term environmental damage. Because the workers have no political clout, these "entrpreneurs" have little chance of being held accountable for their negligence.
But then, you're a troll, aren't you?
Slight problem with high tech ASIC (Application Specific Integrated Circuits) is that they are too specialized to do anything other than what they are designed for.
Same can be said about too special blocks in lego.
What would the anti-environmentalist camp's perspective on it be? That trees generate more waste circuit boards and plastics than disposed computers do? Or that discarded electronics make great fertilizer for trees?
Why do you think we are still driving gasoline autos? Because we are stupid and lazy and don't give a shit.
Trade agreements have LOOPHOLES from which evil polluting corporations profit. Don't blame China for a law the United States made up and is exploiting.
And next, WTF makes you think that Pollution OVER THERE does not affect us here? You should re-think your rant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._Election_c
Won't you?
bnf
this space intentionally left blank (oops)
If you read a little Dickens or brush up on your American West gold rush history you might come off your high horse. Just 100 years ago streams flowed purple with coal tars and green with copper cynide compounds here in the first world. It was dirty, but we are rich today from such efforts. Rich enough to clean up. Try telling a man who might die of starvation or common disseases next month that his current activities might give him cancer in thirty years. He will laugh, before he eats you.
All we can do is shout that it's wrong and point out propper methods of disposal. Hopefully, the world will hear and work on other things like sanitary sewerage, potable drinking water and other basic public health issues.
Would your Basel Convention prevent the transfer of new working computers? What other great things should the US ratify for you?
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
The cost of disposing of any electronic item should be determined, then charged to the distributor in the country in question by the government, which then sets up modern disposal facilities where anyone can get rid of their old gear.
This is a perfect example of socialization of costs- and it's the reason we have governments.
You might argue, saying that this will make electronics more expensive- but this cost is *already being paid*, but by Chinese villagers, as this article notes. Tanstaafl, folks. The question is, do you want to face up and take responsibility?
Programs like this would also encourage more ecologically friendly designs- as well as delivering the death blow to the ecologically nasty CRT in favor of the less vile (although by no means clean) flat panel.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
This is the peril of of the computer industry becoming a commodity-based system. Margins are so low, manufacturers have to make it up on volume. Consumers say why not buy a new P4, it's only $700. Gamers buy new ware just to play Unreal Tourney at 100fps instead of 70. My brother just bought a new box because his old one (P3 500) got trashed by a virus and he lost his restore disk. I know a lot of /.er's reuse old ware with *BSD or Linux for routers, DNS etc. But how many PC users collect old Packard Bells, Dells, Gateways, HPs?
I still have every machine I've ever owned. Mac Plus (classic), Mac TV (rare and cool), Quadra 660 AV (+VCR=TV), PM 7500 (workhorse, testbed), G4 Cube (you wish), and 1999 iBook (yeah, it's Tang). Only the Plus sits in a closet. I keep them all because they are either still useful, collectible or have sentimental value (my Plus got me through college). I fully intend to pull the Plus, time-capsule-like from the closet in 2010, and boot it up for old-times sake. It'll never end up in some Asian landfill...
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from Macintosh...
Well, at least I feel better about stealing stuff out of the 'recycling' dumpters at the recylcing center.
What about that paste solder that didn't require baking at high temperature, and could be heated again to remove the components from the printed circuit board? That would help, perhaps... a resistor is a resistor...
certron
fair.org counterpunch.com truthout.com indymedia.org salon.com
eff.org guerrilla.net debian.org gentoo.org
No it will not. The only "corporate value" that is taken seriously is that of making a positive return on the stock. If fucking over poor people in the third world is what it takes to make money, corporations and immoral libertarians will rationalize the harm to poor people as a "cost of doing buisness". Environmental damage has a definite cost in terms of economics, but the political might of the United States in the world means that it will for the forseeable future not allow itself to be limited in transferring that cost to the third world.
Not so very many years ago (~10), I was traveling around a country usually derided as "Third World."
One day, in a major city, I was walking near the river, and came across a small road where dozens of older men were squatting with old circuit boards and soldering irons. They would unsolder resisters, capacitors, etc, and place them into bins according to the kind of component.
A few streets further down, I came across another group of old men. These guys were pulling apart what looked like damaged automobile transmissions. One set of guys unscrewed, decoupled, and removed pieces, one set of guys cleaned the grease off of them, one set of guys sorted the parts (gears, synchros, etc) according to their size and level of damage.
It really got me thinking. Here in the States, you don't even think of repairing broken consumer electronic stuff -- it's cheaper to get a new one, and it'll probably have more features. There, the labor costs are virtually nil in comparison to the cost of the materials.
It made me think that there was a valuable process at work. Our garbage was recycled, and it actually benefits someone. Now, it is clear that this is an artifact of an unfair, unjust system. Obviously, fixing the overall system would be better. But within the context of the way things currently are, it's a reasonably good thing.
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachtani?
www.fogbound.net
AFAIK, the nice folks at Noranda have a big plant in Quebec that grinds this stuff up, Burns off the plastic, and runs the metal though a copper smelter to get out the metal content. The plant is suposed to have suficent scrubbers to make chemical feedstocks out of the plastic smoke.
Another Wild-Eyed CANADIAN.
Resources will eventually become scarce, and then corporations might turn to recycling. This means it's better that the old papers, monitors, etc. are conveniently stacked in a warehouse rather than just strewn in landfills.
Are you sure those aren't just parts from our surveillence plane?
Based on Pop Science, and media sensationalism a bunch of rich americans are going to "help" a poor country by preventing them from engaging in an enterprise at which they can make money.
Who is self-centered?
If someone comes to my house and pays me $1 for a box of junk so they can pick out the good stuff and sell it for a profit, I wouldn't consider myself to have "dumped" anything on them. NO! They pay for the junk. They don't GET anything until they sell what they have scrapped for a profit.
Who is calling who less important. YOU are trying to run their lives, and tell them what is good for them. Do YOU think people loose the right to choose when they are poor?
Get your facts right. They are willfully engaging in a transaction. They WANT this junk. They BUY it. AND they make MONEY on it.
Poverty is what you make of it. I've always had the willingness and the freedom to pull myself up by my own bootstraps. I'm glad you weren't there to keep me down.
Yeah, to an extent, you're correct. But you're talking about integrated circuits and I'm talking about individual transistors and capacitors not chips. PC cards and motherboards are mostly chips which don't offer a lot for DIY electronics, but PSUs and TVs and monitors have lots of fun stuff to play with and these are the parts that most amateurs neglect because they're the parts that have the warning labels on them. I agree that repurposing chips is hard to imagine, but you can certainly re-use transistors and capacitors. You could just buy them too, of course, but the article was about disposal issues and that's waht I'm talking about.
Reduce: the money that I don't spend on extra things is STILL in my account, for me to spend on whatever I want. For me, that means having fewer things but better ones. Some goes into my retirement account in an index fund (when the market's down, JUST KEEP BUYING!). Toys that I don't buy can't end up in the trash from my waste stream. From the manufacturer's perspective, products that aren't selling well are made in smaller numbers than if they're going like hotcakes.
Reuse comes in a lot of forms: we've all used hand-me-down computers at some stages in our lives. Older and slower computers can still serve a lot of office or homework functions, while the newer and faster ones get used for graphics, video work and the all-important games. Reuse works in other areas, too: an old Crescent wrench or Craftsman screwdriver works just fine. I also recommend a hobby of mine: Thrift Stores! Right now I'm wearing a Brooks Brothers shirt ($1.75 during the 75% off sale last weekend), Lands End khakis ($1.25, same sale) and a good leather belt (25 cents, ditto). No holes, frayed edges or stains on any of these, and the shirt had been donated fresh from the cleaner (tag still on it). How did they get to the thrift store? With office clothes especially, it's not because they're worn out. It's because somebody gained ten pounds and stayed that way, or because his wife got tired of them (watch out for stains, though). And if you have to show up in a suit sometimes, why tie up a bunch of capital? Pay twenty bucks for a top-grade suit that fits, have it altered for not-too-much compared to the price of new, and you're set.
Think, write, think, edit, think...then post.
"If China doesn't see it as a problem then why the hell should we?"
One may be sick of environmental Pyscho-babble. But one can hardly ignore that earth's environment knows no boundaries. You cannot quarantine air nor water. So if stuff is being dumped in some remote place in India/China because people out there are not saying no, well you are not just hurting them but you are hurting living conditions on earth. So you need to care even if China/India don't. Most people in developing countries haven't the luxury of thinking for themselves nor the environment. So they would accept the current arrangement as they would probably die of other reasons than environmental anyways. But in the developed world that's not the case hence US needs to understand that by taking the dump away from US soil is not going to keep the US air or soil cleaner as air and soil mix freely.
Carl Sagan in his book Cosmos says "who thinks for the earth" (paraphrased) And I think its not just developed countries but the affluent people worldwide who need to think of this.
The amount of time for toxic waste dumped in sea to spread itself uniformly in water and terra firma is not decades but years. So whether i dump it in this side of the pacific or that side of pacific, its only a difference of a few years. Yep you can save yourself a few years if that is your argument. For anything longer you need to think harder.
hmmm that sets me thinking too...
I don't buy it. I don't believe you do either.
I suggest that those same countries that are recycling motherboards make motherboards too.
I don't see a thing wrong with buying those new motherboards from whoever makes them.
Who made the motherboard that is in your PC?? Have you ever bothered to find out if the soldering stations in the plant that made your motherboard is properly ventilated? ( you might have... I'd say it's unlikely though.. )
The more I think about this story, the more I think it's all a bunch of horseshit.
Go back to the original article, I bet This guy, Ted Smith, of the Silicon Valley Toxic's Commission, probably works for some big trash company, or recycling company here in USA. Or probably the entire Toxic's Commision is funded by the same.. His agenda is probably to get some new Regs passed so that HE can make all the money on this stuff instead of the Far Easterners.
As for being a troll, I don't know anything about it. But I do have to scold my 8 year old for name calling once in a while.
First, having the right perspective is important. Most Asian (in particular, Chinese) nations to potentially toxic hardware from the USA is shipped care nothing about environmental issues. For decades, the Chinese contaminated the rivers and lakes of Taiwan with chemical sewage. Many of the Chinese foods imported from mainland China and Taiwan contain traces of heavy metals and other toxins.
Having kept the right perspective, let's look at the issue of disassembly. Yes. Disassembly. Most American consumers pay only the cost of assembly for most things. The only thing for which we Americans pay the cost of both assembly and disassembly is food. The bacteria helps us to decompose the food back into its constituent elements. These elements are then re-used by nature.
The same is not true for glass, plastics, integrated circuit chips, etc. Man-made products have this problem of not being easily disassembled by nature. Unless we explicitly disassemble the product, the constituent elements remain "consumed" (i. e. cannot be re-used because it is integrated into the product). Of course, we have never paid for the cost of this disassembly.
But we should pay for that cost. It would be a boon to the whole economy. The conversion of a product, like a radio or a tooth brush, back into the constituent elements would provide a large supply of raw materials to be fed back into the economy. Of course, doing so is consistent with nature. All natural systems have constant assembly and disassembly processes. The disassembly is usually in the form of bacteria decay: e. g. the dead body of a deer decaying back into the constituent elements that then enrich the surrounding vegetation, producing that delicious canteloupe.
First, having the right perspective is important. Most Asian (in particular, Chinese) nations to which potentially toxic hardware from the USA is shipped care nothing about environmental issues. For decades, the Chinese contaminated the rivers and lakes of Taiwan with chemical sewage. Many of the Chinese foods imported from mainland China and Taiwan contain traces of heavy metals and other toxins.
Having kept the right perspective, let's look at the issue of disassembly. Yes. Disassembly. Most American consumers pay only the cost of assembly for most things. The only thing for which we Americans pay the cost of both assembly and disassembly is food. The bacteria helps us to decompose the food back into its constituent elements. These elements are then re-used by nature.
The same is not true for glass, plastics, integrated circuit chips, etc. Man-made products have this problem of not being easily disassembled by nature. Unless we explicitly disassemble the product, the constituent elements remain "consumed" (i. e. cannot be re-used because it is integrated into the product). Of course, we have never paid for the cost of this disassembly.
But we should pay for that cost. It would be a boon to the whole economy. The conversion of a product, like a radio or a tooth brush, back into the constituent elements would provide a large supply of raw materials to be fed back into the economy. Of course, doing so is consistent with nature. All natural systems have constant assembly and disassembly processes. The disassembly is usually in the form of bacteria decay: e. g. the dead body of a deer decaying back into the constituent elements that then enrich the surrounding vegetation, producing that delicious canteloupe.
O.k. How much gold and silver is in a computer?
Sure there are mounds of computers there. Maybe they have labels in English, but isn't Taiwan or Japan a lot more likely source? Aren't they the #1 manufactures of consumer electronics worldwide? Both are small island nations with limited (possibly none) landfill opportunities. Why would a scofflaw in the US or UK hire a boat to haul garbage to China, when they could just put it in a sack and dump it at a local landfill?
The problem with recycling is that it gives folks a warm 'n fuzzy feeling that they're somehow being environmentally conscious, but not enough to actually consider the broader implications of consumption.
Idea: Build your computer from industry-standard parts (such as ATX-standard motherboards and cases rather than odd proprietary bundles). Choose parts that are made to last, and buy only the items you really want, not parts that'll merely suffice for six months until you can upgrade them. When you *do* upgrade a part of the system, make it a BIG upgrade. This approach doesn't always make the most $$ sense, but it sure does cut down the amount of "stuff" that passes in and out of the house: Buy a $1K monitor, $500 case and $200 power supply and I'll bet they won't be headed for the recyling bin soon!
It is not like the companies are loading the gear onto a highjacked cargo ship or plane and sneaking in to some foreign country to do dump their goods. These countries are accecpting the material for a fee (by the pound maybe?) and accepting the responsibility to properly dispose of it. If their preferred method of "disposal" is to dump the crap on the banks of a river and let the people dig through the remains then so be it. It is their problem, they are not forced to accept this garbage, they want it. This happens because the host countries are the cheapest bidder. They are the cheapest bidder because they do not give a damn about actually recylcing any material. They just accept the fee and dump the crap. So be it, it is their fault and their responsibility once they accept the goods. Quit your crying about how the "evil" west is taking advantage of these poor innocent third world countries.
that's my basement!
Can you imagine a beowulf of these?
And what pirated OS will they use?
Where do you get that? It can be perfectly legal and still hypoctritical. If hypocrisy were illegal, every US ex-president alive today would be in jail. (mind you, if everyone got caught and sentenced for doing illegal things, every US ex-president alive would probably be in jail, regardless of hypocrisy laws.)
China and others want our junk for the raw materials, not because they're looking for 300 baud modems that still work.
First and foremost: Gold or silver connectors and contacts. What do you think all those shiny yellowish pins on the underside of a processor are made of? They're not copper; it would tarnish quickly and your system would stop working. In many cases, the older the hardware, the more gold that was used due to physically larger components. Steel used in cases and racks may also be valuable enough to salvage.
Why isn't this done in the US? It is, but it's not as profitable because labor costs are higher, not to mention overall costs of living. Basically, you're talking about hiring people to take old parts and chisel away the gold with a hammer all day. The rest is discarded, hence the waste strewn along rivers. Not a pleasant situation regardless.
So the question is whether we can do a better job of *truly* recycling old parts. I believe we can. It just requires some innovation. The biggest problem I see is solder removal. It's entirely impractical to do by hand. As any electronics hobbyist knows, old circuit boards are a goldmine of perfectly good parts. What if there was a way to quickly heat and vacuum off all the solder on a board? Then, violently shake the board to cause all the components to fall off into a bin, after which they'd be mechanically sorted, packaged, and sold as surplus. Waste solder is nearly pure lead which can be melted and recycled at little cost. The remaining plastic circuit boards can be scraped of copper traces, then melted down. This would work pretty well for really old boards. New ones with mostly surface mounted components would much much trickier. On the other hand, there's much less material to waste to begin with!
..how about a surcharge at the time of purchase to pay for disposal? Businesses could make a living disposing of these things according to some guidelines. They'd get paid per computer, like those who collect bottles. Just a thought.
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
Are you surprised?
Kyoto protocol
Land mines treaty
ABM treaty
Geneva Convention
WTO/WIPO (oops, that one was not only accepted but rammed down everyone else's throats because it benefited US business)
The current US mindset, as abundantly shown in many of the replies here, is to tell the world to FOAD unless the US wants to push them around for its own purposes.
I hope Americans will start to realise that they are rapidly becoming the most hated and feared nation on earth and that when pay-back time comes in c. 20 years' time (when the EU has recovered from German unification and the collapse of Eastern Europe and China takes over as the world's largest economy) it will not be pretty... In fact reckoning may come earlier as the anti-globalisation movement gets more powerful in response to outrages like this story.
Enjoy lording it over the rest of us, you selfish, arrogant shits, because it ain't going to last forever!
Another pig-ignorant, arrogant, insular American wanker who raves about responsibility in order to disown it. Jeez I hate you hypocritical pricks...
For a start personal responsibility as such is irrelevent here. This is not an individual engaging in a contract; it is done by a national government. As said government is a dictatorship there is not much the citizens can do about it. What personal responsibility do the poor buggers whose land is being wrecked by this have? What would *YOU* suggest they do if they could end up shot or carted off to a labour camp? Oh, I forgot, it's their fault they were born in China and didn't choose their parents to be from the US of A.
Secondly, the core responsibility I would have thought is with the US computer industry to handle its own waste. They've made the profits when they sold the things; they should also be responsible for the safe disposal of those products after they have reached the end of their useful life. It is a denial of responsibility when scrapping their products causes major ecological problems to palm the resulting costs off on the community where the stuff is dumped (and pisses me off as a taxpayer) and doubly so when it involves another country.
Thirdly, the validity of the contract also depends on the circumstances of the buyer to ensure that it is indeed a freely-entered contract between equals. If a starving man with some land is offered food if he takes toxic waste, is that a fair contract between equals or screwing someone who is down.
Grow a brain, and some compassion for people who for no fault of their own don't have much money or power.
Hate to break it to you, but the US isn't the only one guilty of this. The UK, Japan and others also send their obsolete systems to Asia and the pacific.
That doesn't mean you're not right. Europe and others are starting to dislike the US more and more but not just because we are "selfish" and "arrogant" shits. It's partly because they are blind, self-righteous, prideful shits who worry more about what the US is doing more than themselves.
"Pop Science" has nothing to do with the problems caused by the improper handling of hazardous materials. Dismissing the problems caused by these materials by saying "they bought it, it's now their problem" is irresponsible at best.
Imagine I'm a gun store owner. I know for a fact that the person at my counter is going to commit a crime with their purchase. I am both legally and morally obligated to do something about it - i.e. not sell that gun. Just because the buyer wants it does not negate my responsibilities to society as a whole.
How is this any different from "selling" our waste materials to an irresponsible foreign company; a company which would not be allowed to operate under the same conditions in the United States? If we as a country know that handling hazardous materials properly is important and must be managed, how then can you even suggest selling that waste to another country negates our responsibility to manage it properly? Double standards are lazy ways to avoiding responsibility. They're also a cheap way out of doing the right thing.
"Do YOU think people loose the right to choose when they are poor?" Damn straight I do. The poor do not have any choice over whether or not some company dumps garbage into their environment. Go down to the inner city and ask how many people have a choice over their environment, their level of health care, the quality of education in their schools. It's not about running their lives, its about providing them a voice that says "this is not right". It's hard to hear the poor in this or any other country because we generally choose to ignore them.
"Poverty is what you make of it". What a crock. Poverty is poverty, no matter how hard you try to rationalize it away. The poor do not have the same choices as the rich. And they certainly do not get heard as often. Conjecture about what you would or would not do in that situation is simply that.
You asked who is being self-centered - I'd argue that it's you. You're argument comes from an irresponsible, non-empathetic world view. Mine comes from seeing that we all share this world and that we can't negate responsibility just because there's an almighty Dollar attached to it.
If the other country cannot control the polluting actions of its own citizens, how can the US be somehow responsible for the lack of law/enforcement?
This article has about as much validity as somehow blaming Home Depot if I got injured using a bathtub to float down the Mississippi River.
Many of the largest third world countries have no practical environemental/pollution laws because of bribery and a lack of enforcement.
Only if they didn't know the dangers or I missled them in some way.
> Imagine I'm a gun store owner. I know for a fact that the person at my counter is going to commit a crime with their purchase. I > am both legally and morally obligated to do something about it - i.e. not sell that gun.
What if the crime was the breaking of a law that only existed in your town but not the town from where the person lived. Do you have the right to subject that person to your laws even though he doesn't live in your town?
> to an irresponsible foreign company; a company which would not be allowed to operate under the same conditions in the United States?
( side note: This is why so many jobs go out of the country and overseases. Liberals have made it very hard and costly for industry and manufacturing. Most every job moved out of the country is done so to avoid operating under our rules, like minimum wage, work hours, and OSHA stuff. And in most places were these jobs go, people are usually damned glad to get them, even if they don't get pampered like we Americans do. And unemployed Americans can be happy that at least if they had a job, they would be making minimum wage.)
>It's not about running their lives, its about providing them a voice that says "this is not right".
Problem is that you are not speaking for them. You are speaking for you. It is YOU who are worried for the environment in their country, it is YOU who are worried for their health, it is YOU who will take their jobs away, it is You who will make them starve. This report from the Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition was not authored by Chinese or Indians. It was authored by arrogant Americans trying to run other people's lives.
> "The poor do not have the same choices as the rich"
You are right they don't in most cases. Because people like YOU are pushing them down, staring them in the eye and telling them what is good for them.
> You're argument comes from an irresponsible, non-empathetic world view.
Yes and No. I absolutely do not consider myself to be responsible for actions taken by others, by their own free will, and in full knowledge of the consequences.
NO!! I'm not "non-empathetic." I wish people and nations didn't do stupid things. And I do feel bad when people get hurt. But Arrogant Americans are not going to force countries to change their ways. Trying to do so will only cause more hatred. Let them go. They will learn just like we did. It will be a lesson well learned. When it's over we will all be friends.
> The current US mindset, as abundantly shown in
> many of the replies here, is to tell the world
> to FOAD unless the US wants to push them around
> for its own purposes.
I am an American and I strongly disagree with GWB's extreme policies of isolationism. I am not alone, so try not to generalize too much about the people here. However, you are right, and the current political climate is very rah rah right wing. Our liberal politicians are by and large too afraid to stand up for their beliefs, or perhaps even to maintain any.
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