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Mass Motherboard Review
Niscenus writes "The folks at AnandTech are buzzing about this article originally posted here at CS. It's an extensive comparison of motherboard manufacturers, which is great for people who want to build their own system."
All the biggies look to be here. Good timing for me since I'm planning on
building a system in another month or so.
Quick Reference
Conclusion
Top Ten.
1st - Abit,Asus
3rd - Epox
4th - Iwill
5th - Gigabyte
6th - Tyan
7th - VIA
8th - MSI
9th - FIC, Shuttle
11th to 20th (in order) Soyo, Aopen, Soltek, DFI, Acorp, Intel, Supermicro, Chaintech, ECS, NMC.
There you have it, the top motherboard manufacturers there are, all summed up. Personally, I prefer Asus boards, I have bought quite a few, and used all myself. I don't consider price, as motherboards are just too important. To be honest, even though DFI might be rated low, they have a high stability rating, and since its hard to tell how well they perform by human eye, if you own one, you'll be very happy. There seems to be a growing trend for cheap motherboards out there, and I don't like it one bit.
You might hear that AMD is unstable from a lot of intel zealots, but the real problem is people are buying extremely cheap motherboards, there are major problems and issues popping up on the forums from this. Just look at the recent boards, ECS's SiS board must have set a record for number of problems, Soyo, MSI, and Shuttle sold a lot of boards, and they really are causing a lot of problems. From what I've seen on forums, there are few complaints about Asus, Epox, Abit or even Iwill boards (with the exception of the initial Epox shipping error).
Remember, just because your chipset is good, doesn't mean your motherboard will be. The boards RAM timings need to be perfect, and cheap boards making 4 DIMMs available is just major problems. So do yourself, and everyone else a favor, don't be a cheap ass, pay a little more and get the quality boards. Even though I know most of you will say "I bought 10 Shuttles or ECS boards and never had a problem" It still doesn't mean the boards are good, and it doesn't mean you won't regret it in the future. For people that say VIA chipsets are unstable, or anything to that matter, these are the people you should never, ever take advice from. Why? Simple, they buy the cheapest boards possible, and while VIA chipsets aren't perfect, they are 100% stable, and its the motherboards which aren't stable.
If a manufacturer is not on this list, then avoid them. They obviously don't like to send out boards for review, and there is most likely a reason for it. I've excluded a lot of names that show up occasionally, and review very poor the few times they are done.
So next time you are confused about which board to get, and why, you have an unbiased opinion to help you. Asking in forums will only yield a bunch of zealots recommending one brand constantly for no reason, and they don't even take into consideration your needs. Decide for yourself, you'll be happier that way.
Previous page - Acorp
"It's technical in a psychometric kind a way" -- C. Parish
I had a lot of problems with my AMD Athlon XP 1700+ with an Asus A7V133-C motherboard in Linux. I thought it was the Athlon/AGP bug, but the fixes for that didn't help. Programs kept segfaulting/causing bus errors, and sometimes the system hang.
Then I happened to find an upgrade to my BIOS, flashed it and suddenly everything worked perfectly. If you have weird problems that you can't seem to get fixed, try to look for a BIOS update! It's always a good idea, even if your system works, to check for new BIOSes regulary.
A motherboard without a BIOS is like a car without an engine. Make sure the BIOS is a good one!
Why isn't there a story on slashdot about this:
u rl =/library/en-us/Dndotnet/html/mssharsourcecli.asp"
"http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?
It's very great technology.
Isn't slashdot about free speech? Yet, censorship is everyday practice it seems.
For a new free forum project, check out http://www.webvelosix.com
I bought the k7s5a ECS board they mention in the reviews, and low and behold, the board is crap. Constant crashes, and sometimes no booting at all... Then I go buy a new Asus Board, and I am amazed! My AthlonXP 1800+ is running at 1.62 GHZ, which I believe is at 2000+ And the moral of the story is : Dont try to save a buck on your motherboard!
-- Goto Blasto.Net for GOOD, FREE E-Mail, with many names to choose! Really! GO!
If I were a grave-digger or even a hangman, there are some people I could work for with a great deal of enjoyment. -- Douglas Jerrol
Huh? I could imagine a great deal of people I'd like to help to the other side, but work for?
I already know who needs killing, I need someone to tell me who? I don't think so.
That "fotune" needs deletion -5 Just Plain Stupid
Personally, it's a little tough to generalize based simply on the brand. You'll notice horrible support for older boards on ASUS' and MSI's sites, whereas ECS and Jetway - two companies with less-than-stellar reputations - actually manage to include BIOS and detailed info for many of their products from the Socket 7 days.
I've met many people who've had their ASUS A7V's die on them a few days after the warranty ran out so I can honestly say that brand doesn't account for as much as this review would let on. I was honestly hoping for a SERIOUS motherboard round-up but I'm left disappointed by what seems more like an opinion column than an honest review.
As a Retail level tech i spend most of my days answering questions, Some good, and as you would expect some i just roll my eyes at and walk away. It's good to see someone out there has done a pretty comprehesive review of ALL mobo makers. I personally use Asus and MSI. I've had the best experience with both, not to say i've never RMAed a board by either (1 to each company) but as i see it in the years i've been doing this i've installed well over 5,000 mobos. As with any product the makers of mobos do run into issues, like certian runs of a problem board, i've seen at least 1 bad board by every one if theose companys listed, some i've sent them all back (see:Soyo), so it's good judgment to do a little asking around before you buy. Don't jsut listen to one opinion you'll hate that friend, co-worker, relative later for giving you bad advice. I do agree with most of the findings in this article I'd personally rate MSI a bit higher, and shuttle a bit lower but then again that's just my opinion/experience..another word to the wise.. Where you get your board will have a great effect on your buying experience. Stick with well known companys with good return policies. You will one day get a bad board, trust me when i say this, what happens after you figure out the board is flawed and needs RMAed means alot. Some companys will tell you that your SOL and need to send it back to the maker for replacment which is all fine and dandy but can take some time. (around 6-8 weeks)where as the supplier can get you a ned board in a week. Someone now needs to do a comprehesive write up about the suppliers and we'll be all set.
Just Limin' Mon
Don't know your avarage /.ter, but I was fairly OK when using less-than-known MB. Some day I chose to mount an ASUS MB with a new Celeron 900; the board was the CUV4x and I bought it almost when they went out of production.
The board worked for a couple of days, then died completely (won't boot). I got it replaced with a TUV4x (Asus next gen model) and Linux RH7.2 wouldn't install. I only got Win98 and an old Slackware to install with that MB.
I knew I was not alone, like this thread says and I decided to blame on the VIA chipset it mounted. Then I tried to install something better than win98, tried with Win2000 and WinMe, both installations died painfully as the LinuxRH one.
I then threw everything outside the window and bought a Supermicro MB (i418) and a P4. They both rock my day.
So, I ended with a very sour experience with Asus MB, I will hardly buy another one in the future.
I have one, I like it.
Works fine, very stable. Integrated network card works.
If you are going to buy any product with a reputation for DOA, buy it from a good local dealer who will take trade ins.
History
VIA has no real history, as they are less then a year old.
??? or maybe this review is old?
Also, on an unrelated topic, has anyone had problems with via, amd, and the aureal sound chipset under linux? I was hoping they would mention something about it.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I have very bad experience with Epox boards: a friend of mine bought one, and even the parts that were on board had interupt-conflicts with each other. Really horrible design.
But come on, let's be honest: Something that works for me (with my hardware) doesn't have to work for you and vice versa. This review is purely useless!
What do you do when you see an endangered animal eating an endangered plant?
I dunno who told these jokers that ECS make underperforming boards, but it's a lie. It is true that they don't have some of the more popular overclocking features, but for stability and performance their boards are up there with the "big boys" at often less than half the price. I wouldn't use anything else in the machines I build for clients OR myself.
Did these guys just make the shit up? I mean, just do a quick google search for 'ECS motherboard' and read the reviews. Look at the benchmarks. Better yet, drop fifty or sixty bucks on one and try it yourself. I am an Asus convert, and I'm never going back. I've got a Windows box that has been up for almost six weeks. WINDOWS! SIX WEEKS! THANK YOU ECS!
And no, I do not work for ECS, but I have had this debate a dozen times IRL and the performance/stability argument is quite simply a load of crap.
Someone else already mentioned how important Bios flashing can be. FYI, I've found that ASUS has a great BIOS updating utility. This is a feature you should definitly consider if you are buying a mobo for the long haul.
Does anyone else experience problems with the P2B series over time? We have about 30 asus p2b based computers in our department, and they start needing replacement at an alarming rate.
The problems show up as solid lock-ups, at first maybe once a month, and then escalating to several lockups a day. The problems can be reproduced with the memtest.exe produced by alegr software (free download) as a lockup on pass 4 (always pass 4). Already tried exchanging all other parts except the motherboard so Im pretty sure Ive narrowed it down.
My theory is that the capacitors dry out over time and thus fails to meet their spec.
Out of thirty wewe so far had five go bad, and the problem is difficult enough to reproduce for the vendors to blame it on software problem.
I used to think of asus as good products, now Im not so sure anymore.
As I am typing this (7:25 a.m. CST) CNN is having a live interview with a reporter who is with Arafat. Reporter says he is quite well and just as defiant as ever.
We now return you to your regular program.
(Maybe I can salvage karma by getting back on-topic.)
Really interesting article re. mobos. I would like better information on stability. I've bought two Athlon/XP boards in the last year, both rated to be pretty good (Aopen AK-73 1394(A) and Iwill KK-266R-Plus). Both have stability problems, even when not overclocked. I use Micron memory, temps are cool, power supplies are good quality & high-power. Nonetheless, both systems will lock up randomly, anywhere from once every two weeks, to sometimes two or three times in one day.
Both systems have Geforce cards - one a G2 Ultra, the other a G3. I had a Sound Blaster Live in one of them; replaced it with a Santa Cruz - didn't help. Using on-board sound on the Iwill until I know which boards do/do not contribute to reliability problems. Both have 3Com NICS. Nothing else in common. I've updated drivers, etc., 'til the cows come home - no joy.
Any ideas? I'm really suspicious of the VIA chip set. I know this article dismissed that idea, says it's only a problem with cheap motherboards. It is the one common denominator I can see.
Every vendor produces some unstable products including ASUS. Do a search on Asus A7V333 and see how many "can't POST with this board" messages you get from January to March, the length of time it took for this motherboard to get stable.
The early adopters and reviewers specify which rev level of the motherboard and bios they used that gave them a stable product.
"I know this article dismissed that idea, says it's only a problem with cheap motherboards."
:)
they are smoking crack
they still haven't managed to get a PCI bus that works properly on the KT266A >:(
I also find it strange that a lot of people have VIA/Abit problems, yet they've put Abit at the top of the list?!?!?!?!??!?! EXCUSE ME?
"Buy Abit, Abit are good!
BUT IT KEEPS CRASHING!
Then don't buy a crappy mainboard!"
*sigh*
Or an entire country of people that thinks that a problem can be solved by sending out the troops, F-16s and tanks and "isolating" the elected president of a nation.
... who secretly supports terrorism.
Yes - I agree with the F-16's, tanks, whatever - anyone who supports terrorism - actively, or cowardly - will get what they deserve.
Good to hear Abit is on the top! I built a killer system based on the Abit KT7A, and its an awesome board! It has more options than I need, and they didn't make the BIOS friendly, which is good for us geek types that like to tweak. I plan on purchasing another ABIT board when I build my next system.
For those looking at a KT7A, it is an older board. However, the specs on Abit's site are outdated. As of rev 1.3, the board theoretically could go into the 2ghz neighborhood. I'm currently running a 1.4 t-bird.
Strong points (my own, not from the article):
1. BIOS tweaking, BIOS tweaking, BIOS tweaking. This board has the most in depth BIOS setup I've ever seen, with the ability to overclock your system in 1 mHz increments.
2. Stability, even at OC speeds.
3. Board features, such as 4 USB headers, chipset cooler, temperature sensors galore, plenty of fan headers.
4. Nice thick manual.
5. No problems running linux on this board.
My conclusion: Abit good.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
I've been following a few candidate mobos for the system I'm building and the best place to hang out seems to be here. There are quite a number of people experiencing problems (which is what you're likely to need help with, not how great it is) so it's a good place to gather insite on the boards you are considering.
Of course, keep a critical eye on what you read, as some people's problems aren't related to the hardware, but inexperience or what they're trying to do which may be beyond recommendation by mfrs.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
One simple basic thing works fine on all the Asus, Epox, Gigabyte, and Tyan motherboards I've ever worked with, and failed on all the Intel motherboards I've worked with. That thing is the PS/2 keyboard port when either not connected at boot/reset time, or connected to an electronic KVM switchbox which has not selected that machine at boot/reset time.
If the keyboard is not plugged in at all, and then you plug it in later, it doesn't work. Linux sees a keyboard device, but no keypresses ever get through until you reboot (and Ctrl-Alt-Del doesn't work).
If the keyboard is plugged in to the electronic KVM switch, and the switch has not selected that machine at the time, then it gets even worse. Something (BIOS or chipset) just hangs. Video sync comes up but the screen is blank except for a cursor. When the KVM is switched over to that machine, still nothing. If you move the mouse, sometimes it will start up and BIOS will initialize and boot the system. However, the keyboard and mouse ports are now transposed electically or logically in the chipset. Mouse movements go in as garbled keypresses, and real keypresses occaisionally tickle mouse logic.
It's not a fundamental chipset flaw that I can see, as I have some cases of the same chipset on both Intel and ASUS boards, and the ASUS boards work fine. It might be how the chipsets are configured by the engineers, though I personally suspect the BIOS is the major culprit.
As a desktop, this is OK. As a server, this sucks. Even the rack mount Intel ISP-1100 (TX440 motherboard, BX chipset) has this problem, and that machine is clearly intended for the server market. I have contacted Intel support and after the issue was bounced around several engineers, it finally came back as "Not supported with a KVM switch" and they just dropped the issue.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
these guys obviously did a lot of research. from the article (on Gigabyte):
;-)
Stability
Their boards are being focused on reliability and stability. The dual bios option is just one sign. From personal experience, I've noted their boards to have a high degree of stability. They aren't extremely stable, but they are far above average. Their stability during their performance market days was questionable.
Rating: 7.5/10
funny. a review from Tom's Hardware pissed all over the dual bios saying it caused more problems than it fixed, making stability a very touchy issue.
Seems to me this article was written by a couple of DIY'ers who've heard the term "overclock," but never "benchmark." Oh, and as for history???? I sure as shit hope they don't tell everyone to run out and buy a 3Dfx board "because they were the original high-end 3D graphics board maker"
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
My review wasn't meant to be completely analytical. If you really wanted a board to board comparision, you would go check a review, since every model does differ.
The whole point is that each company makes board pretty much in the same way, even after 5 or 6 years. Some have changed direction, which is why you might see their overall score lower then you'd like, but you can always look at the specfics and judge for yourself.
Do some people really expect me to benchmark a dozen boards from each company? ya right, get real and stop bitching.
Some people mention bios problems, like gigabytes dual bios. It doesn't make their boards unstable, it just doesn't always work, especially if you screw up the bios in a weird way. Board makers always can't forsee what will happen, which is the point of bios updates, so as long as companies don't have excessive updates fixing simple things, they don't lose points there either.
Just a reminder, these aren't my personal opinions, its how things are. I had to grit my teeth when giving some companies good ratings because of how much I dislike them.
I sell and configure custom computers almost everyday, and one thing I will take issue with is the articles opinion of Abit and support.
Abit performs well, they are reliable, and they come with nice features... As I heard a tech at my company told a customer once, "if you get a bad one, forget about getting your problem fixed."
We as a company refuse to stock them any longer. Having a pile of 4 dozen motherboards with issues that we can't RMA'd or get credit for made that decision easy. Even the istributers we buy from dropped them. I haven't confirmed this, but I've been told this last week by two customer's that Fry's won't carry them any longer for the same reason.
I tell customers this everytime they want to special order a Abit motherboard, "I can order it in, but it is purchased 'as is.' We wlll not accept it in return, refund, or exchange. All warranty issues must be dealt with by you directly with Abit. Payment is needed at time of order." It's the only way to protect the company and most people ask why we have that policy, I explain, they buy Asus or go elsewhere.
Basically, Abit rocks, except when you get that 1 out of 200 bad board. My opinion, buy Asus, their RMA and support is the best I've ever seen, and they perform realiably.
You can tell the writer worships their arse.
Going on about Abits history of great stability/support/reliability etc.
Bullshit, just a couple of years ago Abit had worse RMA rates than bloody PC Chips/ECS, AT 10%. Ontop of that Abit charged a RMA fee
(even when it was 100% their fault) of $20, forcing retailers to charge an extra $2 on every Abit board to make sure they didn't lose out on the 10% that failed.
Mind you they're improved since then, the box I'm typing this on has a Abit board.
It transforms those ECS Athlon boards from shit to the bargin of the century, well almost.
Why can't somone, with support from IBM and Motorola, persuade the motherboard manufacturers to make motherboards for PowerPCs? Why should only the Mac people have all the fun? Since Linux is becoming very popular, don't you think it would be a good idea? Maybe they have to take some loss initially, but don't you think it will take off (they can probably cover the loss if IBM and Motorola's support)? I love my linux desktop,and KDE and GNOME is getting better each day! Love to hear your comments. Hem Ramachandran
"where does it say in ANY biblical text that its 'ok' to slaughter children "
It seems the Pals are just folling our example, only they have the guts to sacrifice their own lives too.
Have a comment? Have something worth mentioning?
You're free to come and talk kietch with the author of the article at either #queenofgeeks or #aselabs at the chat.planetz.net server on port 7000
__________
"Yeah...it was the numbers that were irrational, not the murderous cult of vegetarians...." -- Hippasus of Metapontum
I'm afraid my expectations to this review was set too high. They sure do look at a large ammount of boards, but they only compare features which i could do myself with a little help from a web browser.
But the reason im really posting is that i disagree with their rating of Asus' support. Especially regarding Bios updates, or should i say the lack of Bios updates. I have been using a beta bios for almost 2 years now to get a 40 Gig harddrive to work on a P5A. There havent been a single bios upgrade since i bought my board... I have had similar experiences in the past.
I can't say if they have improved over the last few years but i somehow doubt it and i dont care, the P5A is my last Asus board and it is the next one in line to be replaced.
I followed the links from a reply that purported to be from the author (at the moment the AnandTech forum appears to be /.ed.) The author's home machine has 256MB of RAM, a ATI Radeon 8500 retail, and Windows XP Pro. I refuse to trust anything said about computers from a person who has this setup. There's nothing wrong about the individual pieces, it's the tradeoff in the aggregation that bothers me. How can someone who claims to have advanced knowledge of motherboards decide to go with only 256MB of RAM while blowing money on the latest generation of video card? Never, ever scrimp on RAM. The opinion of someone who doesn't know this as a first principle should not be trusted.
Just because every board you bought of manufacture X works fine doesn't mean the board's any good ... so you sez ... Huh ???
You may be right..
Not that I'm pushing nVidia.. but they deserve to be in the comparison. Especially with quotes like:
If a manufacturer is not on this list, then avoid them.
I just watched him in a public announcement that's only two hours old!!
You people are lousey, board consuming punks! Eat Karma!
"Yeah...it was the numbers that were irrational, not the murderous cult of vegetarians...." -- Hippasus of Metapontum
"ECS's SiS board must have set a record for number of problems"
You have GOT to be shitting me!! Have you read any reviews on ECS' latest boards? Check out the K7S5A in particular. It's dirt cheap in price, but has a good feature set and is rock-solid in the stability category, which is proabably the most important of all. I bought one after researching the new boards for over a week and haven't been disappointed in the least.
In fact, one of the main reasons for choosing that board was to get away from the VIA chipset. God, I had an Asus K7M and had nothing but problems that all seemed to trace back to VIA (and Creative...bastards). Friends and many, MANY anecdotal postings on messageboards confirmed this as well.
$300CDN is just a waste of money for features I'll never use (onboard software-based RAID, no thanks..) And considering that every time I want to upgrade my CPU I need a new motherboard because the industry decided on a new slot/socket design or form factor, there's no point in wasting a whack of cash on one.
http://www.cosmicshell.com/~doublec/chat/
In case you want to visit #queenofgeeks
Meet the almost girl-friend of the author;)
(if only he'd quit calling her fat!)
"Yeah...it was the numbers that were irrational, not the murderous cult of vegetarians...." -- Hippasus of Metapontum
ECS == PCCHIPS.
PCChips is one of the lowest scum of the earth manufactuers.
They pirate BIOSes, remark CPUs, glue plastic squares on their boards instead of cache chips, don't mark manufacuters' names on board or model numbers (most of the time), make inferior voltage regulation for processors, fake processors speeds and bus speeds, and the specific board you have is so poorly designed it can't handle a 1.4 Ghz processor (try it and you will see I am 100% right).
Spend 5 minutes on deja, or look up the "pcchips lottery" to see that I'm right. BTW: Your board is availiable in a slightly different shade from various PCCHIPS manufactuers. Have fun and see if you can spot the board on amptron's site (another PCCHIPS distributor). I know the one you find there that looks the same is identical, since I had one of each (an ECS model and an Amptron model) in my hot little hands and spent a good few minutes inspecting them. The differences? Color and FCC logo position.
BTW: Tom's hardware can bite me. They don't deserve to be called a review site after giving anything from PCChips a good rating.
Don't believe me? Take your computer to a used computer store and ask them if they will even buy it off you. Just don't forget to mention you have a PCChips board.
>$300CDN is just a waste of money for features I'll never use (onboard software-based RAID, no thanks..)
Agreed. You can, however, find good boards from MSI, and lower end ASUS boards for under $150 if you look around.
actually...
I started with win98, where 256 is more then enough. I moved to XP, and wanted to get more RAM, but the price is so high for DDR now, that I'm holding off, I still want more though.
This tactic of retailers telling you that "you got a bad board? Tough, send it back to the manufacturer, not me" is bullshit in the extreme.
In Canada, the Consumer Protection Act (CPA) protects people against this sort of garbage, but many retailers still pull it because very few people know about it. Basically, it states that the contract of sale is between you and the retailer, not the manufacturer. You have warranty "within reasonable limits" on what you purchase from them. If it's broke, it's up to the retailer to handle the RMA to the manufacturer/supplier/whoever, NOT YOU.
However, if the manufacturer warranty is longer than the reasonable retail warranty and you've passed the point of being able to return it to the retailer, it goes without saying that you have to deal with the mfg directly.
I wouldn't trust this list further than I could kick it. It is simply too subjective of an issue. There are certainly brands that tend to have problems or poor manufacturing, but I'm cracking up at the score they gave SuperMicro. It scored a perfect 10.0 for reliability, but since it is poor for overclocking and built-in motherboard features it ended up getting the lowest score of the bunch. My best overall home machine is a dual P3-500 SuperMicro machine that runs 24/7/365 and has never given me problems. The box is simply rock solid. On the other hand, my Shuttle based machine is down constantly. It's obvious the testers were much more concerned with maximum performance (speed, overclocking, built-in features) vs. maximum stability/useability. Besides, what do I care about some piece of crap video and audio subsystem layered on my motherboard. I'd simply turn it off in BIOS anyway and add my own cards.
OK, so I built a machine for my fiancee's parents (gigahertz-class duron, 256 ram, geforce 2 derivative, etc. quite a jump from the p200mmx they had). I went with the ECS board, becuase of all the good things I heard about it. The first motherboard suffered a catastrophic error, some widget on the underside of the board sort of exploded and the motherboard basically soldered itself to the case, shorting it. It's the first time I'd ever seen computer hardware _literally smoke_, and I don't mean just a little puff. (There's still a great big scorch mark on their case.) This also nuked pretty much everything plugged into the board except the cdrom and floppy. Thankfully, the shop we bought everything from (axtiontech, here in houston tx) really bent over backwards, giving us no problems about returning components. The next ecs board we got has been running flawlessly for a couple of months now. I guess we just got that one in a million lemon.
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
and wanted to get more RAM, but the price is so high for DDR now, that I'm holding off
I know what you mean! $80 for Corsair 256MB PC2100. I'll have to save my allowance for MONTHS to be able to afford that!!
Commodity PowerPC mobos were available back in the mid-1990s.
Nobody bought them, which is the main reason you can't buy one now -- that and the fact that nobody wants to pay to maintain the Windows PPC port (which is a majority of the desktop market and a good chunk of the server market).
Both IBM and Moto expected great things in the desktop market, didn't find them after spending an assload of money, and retreated to safer markets.
Joshua, Chapters 10-12
i beleive that the K7S5A is an awsome board... not only is it fast and mostly stable(arguable but its not BAD nor is it GREAT) but its CHEAP...
i beleive that a cheap mobo IS good... most of the time your mobo is NOT the problem and some other cheapo part is... if you can save $20 (or more usually with the ECS K7S5A) on your mobo then you can get a better power supply or ram which usually ARE the source of a problem...
the cost recovered by a cheaper board is quickly justified when suddenly you can buy ECC ram or throw another 50W on a power supply
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
I've built a few computers over the years and have used motherboards from several companies. I've been lucky to not have gotten a DOA board so far. I've used boards made by AZZA (which was not in his review) and have been happy with them. AZZA's website has had good support for current and discontinued products. In fact, they published an ap note on how to use the K6-266 and K6-300 cpu's on an older board that would only work with speeds up to 233. The mod involved changing out a surface mount resistor in the power supply and lifting a leg off a surface mount IC (not for the faint hearted or far sighted!). I was able to make the change, and it worked fine!
I have switched to Tyan boards for my last two computers since they had the mix of features I wanted. They were the last guys making a slot-1 AT style mb with ISA slots. A good MB which is still in use here. My current machine uses their trinity series which supports flip chip and slot 1 intel processors. It has a PIII-866 (maybe if I ever find a 1GHZ PIII on sale cheap somewhere I'll upgrade, but the small increase in speed simply isn't worth very much vs the price of the cpu). I have 768mb of dram (maxed out) and this board is VERY stable, even running win-98, though it is mostly a Linux box that can dual boot. The single isa slot has a hacked up old style printer card that will be used to drive a home brew prom burner, or the DDT-52 emulator (byte). I'm sorry he gave Tyan a lower position than the others, but I guess he is more hacker than system guru. Tyan desktop MB's are not too expensive and they are discounted by many mail order houses. You do pay dearly for their servers boards, but you don't want a shity MB in a server! I'd gladly pay the price for a machine that was keeping my business up!
I was a little dissapointed that the article didn't mention some of the higher end motherbard manufacturers like SuperMicro. If you want to build a really stable and reliable system most of these Tiawanese specials are a little lacking.
> I haven't confirmed this, but I've been told this last week by two customer's that Fry's won't carry them any longer for the same reason.
I just searched Fry's online store (www.outpost.com) and found this:
Search Results Showing items 1 through 2 out of 2.
Item_# Product_Name Manufacturer Platform Shipping Price
2995165
Abit TH7-RAID i850 P4 Motherboard
Abit
For PC
Same Day
$99.90Buy
3078699
Abit KG7-RAID AMD 761 Motherboard
ABIT
(no platform listed)
Same Day
$99.90Buy
Is the maximum memory that can be placed on a x86 motherboard 4gb?? If not, can someone point me to where I can purchase a motherboard with a greater RAM capacity?
Thanks,
Nick Powers
Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
I was trying to get the onboard via8233 sound chip to work, and not getting anywhere.
I emailed Epox tech support, and someone emailed back in about 4 hours with ALSA drivers attached and instructions on how to compile and configure. Crank ON!
Admittedly, the sound chip appears to suck anyway (mp3s are fine, but sound in Tribes 2 is horrible - on my Athlon 1600XP). But you have to congratulate their tech support for jumping in with the ALSA drivers. I was expecting to be told to use the kernel drivers (which don't work) and seek support in newsgroups...
If it's not on the list, is it even worth considering? Newegg has the Biostar M7VKQ for $52, and I'm thinking of using one for an MP3 player. Onboard video and LAN.
Any love/horror Biostar stories?
DoC
The only EPoX board I've bought was awhile ago, the MVP3G-M (a Super7 board I used with an AMD K6-III 450).
I got it because it was the highest rated board for its type. It never failed me, and I'm certainly glad I got it.
Rock solid, good drivers. EPoX's website was always friendly. I never had a reason to contact their customer service though.
Aureal went out of business a couple of years ago. (its a shame, they made good sound cards that were priced pretty good) Right now, Drivers support is sketchy for Windows 2000 as well as Linux. Try looking at www.vortexofsound.com or searching for aureal on SourceForge. I was able to get my Aureal sound card to work on RH Linux 6.2 once though. The driver only works for kernel 2.4.2 and wont work for RH 7.x.
$cat
"We must fight this terrorism, in an uncompromising war to uproot these savages, to dismantle their infrastructure, because there is no compromise with terrorists."
"He's got to make it absolutely clear that the Palestinian Authority does not support these terrorist activities " George Bush on Yasser Arafat (Note, Arafat will never be clear on this issue. Arafat is a two faced liar.)
Hezbollah Open Light Weapon Fire Sunday Midnight on Israeli Positions Guarding Western Sector of Israel-Lebanese Frontier - Second Attack in Three Days (Arab aggression, unsolicited yet again)
Also Sunday Night, Israeli Tank and Ground Units Reach Center of West Bank Town of Qalqilya Amid Exchanges of Fire (Again, a response to unsolicited fire)
In Address to Nation, Sharon Declares Israel Is at War, Names Arafat as Terror Source and Leader, Enemy of Israel and Free World and Threat to Regional Stability (Like Sharon doesn't have enough problems being a leader of a decent country, he is having to put politics aside and do everything he can to defend his people)
Earlier, Six Israelis Were Injured, One Critically, When Palestinian Suicide Blew up First Aid Post at
Gush Etzion Town of Efrat Near Bethlehem - Where He was Employed (Good moral high grounds, a Palestinian employee of a first air post blows up injured and former co workers)
Suicide Attack in Haifa "Matsa" Restaurant Sunday Claims 16 Lives, Leaves 38 Injured, 5 Critically,
and Guts Restaurant -Passover Terror Toll Soars to 47 Israelis Killed, 219 Injured in Six Outrages in Five Days (Palestine the bloody piece of shit, good work!)
Tanzim Chief Barghouti Believed Hiding in His Home Village of Kobar, South of Ramallah Israeli Forces Detain Locals For Questioning on His Whereabouts (Again, police are looking for crime lords and the Palestinians hide them, international criminals)
Senior Security Sources: To Complete Arafat's Isolation, Israeli Troops Expected to Bring Senior Terror Activists out of His Office Among them: Tawfiq Tirawi, Commander of Fatah's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and Its Suicide Attacks Soldiers Will Also Impound Documents (Good, so the documents can show that Arafat is a criminal who does business daily with TAWFIQ TIRAWR, an international criminal)
ARAFAT is a CRIMINAL, he associates with CRIMANLS. That is all there is to it.
Sorry to break it to you all, but only one side is blowing up school busses and hospitals, and other soft civillian targets.
The last people who suicide attacked the USA got Nuked (Kamikaze). I pray Israel does the same.
hishistory will be kind to the west:
USA: put a man on the moon.
Palestine: blew up lots of innocent non military women children in hospitals
"We must fight this terrorism, in an uncompromising war to uproot these savages, to dismantle their infrastructure, because there is no compromise with terrorists."
"He's got to make it absolutely clear that the Palestinian Authority does not support these terrorist activities " George Bush on Yasser Arafat (Note, Arafat will never be clear on this issue. Arafat is a two faced liar.)
Hezbollah Open Light Weapon Fire Sunday Midnight on Israeli Positions Guarding Western Sector of Israel-Lebanese Frontier - Second Attack in Three Days (Arab aggression, unsolicited yet again)
Also Sunday Night, Israeli Tank and Ground Units Reach Center of West Bank Town of Qalqilya Amid Exchanges of Fire (Again, a response to unsolicited fire)
In Address to Nation, Sharon Declares Israel Is at War, Names Arafat as Terror Source and Leader, Enemy of Israel and Free World and Threat to Regional Stability (Like Sharon doesn't have enough problems being a leader of a decent country, he is having to put politics aside and do everything he can to defend his people)
Earlier, Six Israelis Were Injured, One Critically, When Palestinian Suicide Blew up First Aid Post at
Gush Etzion Town of Efrat Near Bethlehem - Where He was Employed (Good moral high grounds, a Palestinian employee of a first air post blows up injured and former co workers)
Suicide Attack in Haifa "Matsa" Restaurant Sunday Claims 16 Lives, Leaves 38 Injured, 5 Critically,
and Guts Restaurant -Passover Terror Toll Soars to 47 Israelis Killed, 219 Injured in Six Outrages in Five Days (Palestine the bloody piece of shit, good work!)
Tanzim Chief Barghouti Believed Hiding in His Home Village of Kobar, South of Ramallah Israeli Forces Detain Locals For Questioning on His Whereabouts (Again, police are looking for crime lords and the Palestinians hide them, international criminals)
Senior Security Sources: To Complete Arafat's Isolation, Israeli Troops Expected to Bring Senior Terror Activists out of His Office Among them: Tawfiq Tirawi, Commander of Fatah's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and Its Suicide Attacks Soldiers Will Also Impound Documents (Good, so the documents can show that Arafat is a criminal who does business daily with TAWFIQ TIRAWR, an international criminal)
ARAFAT is a CRIMINAL, he associates with CRIMANLS. That is all there is to it.
Sorry to break it to you all, but only one side is blowing up school busses and hospitals, and other soft civillian targets.
The last people who suicide attacked the USA got Nuked (Kamikaze). I pray Israel does the same.
Pals are so toast, only the media gives a shit about them, the rest of the world governments know the real deal. Thats why nothing is done to stop a bunch of police from doing what they have to to stop criminals.
And germany? hahahahahah. The children of Dresden? hahahahahahahahaa BWAHAHAHA. Lets side with ADOLF HITLER to prove the Palestinians are right? hHAHAHAHAHAQHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Side with te 3rd reich to prove palestine is justified. HAHAHAH. kills me.
Good one, HAHAHAHHAHA.
"We must fight this terrorism, in an uncompromising war to uproot these savages, to dismantle their infrastructure, because there is no compromise with terrorists."
"He's got to make it absolutely clear that the Palestinian Authority does not support these terrorist activities " George Bush on Yasser Arafat (Note, Arafat will never be clear on this issue. Arafat is a two faced liar.)
Hezbollah Open Light Weapon Fire Sunday Midnight on Israeli Positions Guarding Western Sector of Israel-Lebanese Frontier - Second Attack in Three Days (Arab aggression, unsolicited yet again)
Also Sunday Night, Israeli Tank and Ground Units Reach Center of West Bank Town of Qalqilya Amid Exchanges of Fire (Again, a response to unsolicited fire)
In Address to Nation, Sharon Declares Israel Is at War, Names Arafat as Terror Source and Leader, Enemy of Israel and Free World and Threat to Regional Stability (Like Sharon doesn't have enough problems being a leader of a decent country, he is having to put politics aside and do everything he can to defend his people)
Earlier, Six Israelis Were Injured, One Critically, When Palestinian Suicide Blew up First Aid Post at
Gush Etzion Town of Efrat Near Bethlehem - Where He was Employed (Good moral high grounds, a Palestinian employee of a first air post blows up injured and former co workers)
Suicide Attack in Haifa "Matsa" Restaurant Sunday Claims 16 Lives, Leaves 38 Injured, 5 Critically,
and Guts Restaurant -Passover Terror Toll Soars to 47 Israelis Killed, 219 Injured in Six Outrages in Five Days (Palestine the bloody piece of shit, good work!)
Tanzim Chief Barghouti Believed Hiding in His Home Village of Kobar, South of Ramallah Israeli Forces Detain Locals For Questioning on His Whereabouts (Again, police are looking for crime lords and the Palestinians hide them, international criminals)
Senior Security Sources: To Complete Arafat's Isolation, Israeli Troops Expected to Bring Senior Terror Activists out of His Office Among them: Tawfiq Tirawi, Commander of Fatah's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and Its Suicide Attacks Soldiers Will Also Impound Documents (Good, so the documents can show that Arafat is a criminal who does business daily with TAWFIQ TIRAWR, an international criminal)
ARAFAT is a CRIMINAL, he associates with CRIMANLS. That is all there is to it.
the reason the palestinians havent gotten thier own state is becuase they are criminals. period. end.
CRIMINALS> fuck these criminals mushrooming in thier little swamp of amoral fortitude. they are wrong. wrong wrong. they have no place in the internation arena, the UN or in a world economy.
"We must fight this terrorism, in an uncompromising war to uproot these savages, to dismantle their infrastructure, because there is no compromise with terrorists."
"He's got to make it absolutely clear that the Palestinian Authority does not support these terrorist activities " George Bush on Yasser Arafat (Note, Arafat will never be clear on this issue. Arafat is a two faced liar.)
Hezbollah Open Light Weapon Fire Sunday Midnight on Israeli Positions Guarding Western Sector of Israel-Lebanese Frontier - Second Attack in Three Days (Arab aggression, unsolicited yet again)
Also Sunday Night, Israeli Tank and Ground Units Reach Center of West Bank Town of Qalqilya Amid Exchanges of Fire (Again, a response to unsolicited fire)
In Address to Nation, Sharon Declares Israel Is at War, Names Arafat as Terror Source and Leader, Enemy of Israel and Free World and Threat to Regional Stability (Like Sharon doesn't have enough problems being a leader of a decent country, he is having to put politics aside and do everything he can to defend his people)
Earlier, Six Israelis Were Injured, One Critically, When Palestinian Suicide Blew up First Aid Post at
Gush Etzion Town of Efrat Near Bethlehem - Where He was Employed (Good moral high grounds, a Palestinian employee of a first air post blows up injured and former co workers)
Suicide Attack in Haifa "Matsa" Restaurant Sunday Claims 16 Lives, Leaves 38 Injured, 5 Critically,
and Guts Restaurant -Passover Terror Toll Soars to 47 Israelis Killed, 219 Injured in Six Outrages in Five Days (Palestine the bloody piece of shit, good work!)
Tanzim Chief Barghouti Believed Hiding in His Home Village of Kobar, South of Ramallah Israeli Forces Detain Locals For Questioning on His Whereabouts (Again, police are looking for crime lords and the Palestinians hide them, international criminals)
Senior Security Sources: To Complete Arafat's Isolation, Israeli Troops Expected to Bring Senior Terror Activists out of His Office Among them: Tawfiq Tirawi, Commander of Fatah's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and Its Suicide Attacks Soldiers Will Also Impound Documents (Good, so the documents can show that Arafat is a criminal who does business daily with TAWFIQ TIRAWR, an international criminal)
ARAFAT is a CRIMINAL, he associates with CRIMANLS. That is all there is to it.
Abit KG7-RAID AMD 761 Motherboard
ABIT
(no platform listed)
Same Day
$99.90 Buy"
Shit! I bought that same board for $179 3 weeks ago. grrr. I should of waited. Oh and with that board you can not turn on apm without apic support on as well. This means its useless for linux unless you turn off apm. At least with abit you can turn it off. The soyo ones keep it on making it a windows only board. Apic is real evil. Just a little warning here for linux users thinking about buying this board.
http://saveie6.com/
The webpage was written by an 11 year old. He wants to be like the big boys as a hardware reviewer but doesn't have the patience to test motherboards objectively. Instead, this pre-teen made up rankings for the heck of it.
2 seconds into reading the reviews, I knew I was reading pure BS.
Ignore it. Maybe the boy will grow up. If he doesn't just ignore him forever, like his parents and teachers. Maybe he'll go away.
I've got a P3V4X that's never once crashed on me in over two years of hard use, and I'm overclocking a slot-1 P-III/600 coppermine to 800MHz with it (huge Alpha HSF keeping the cpu cool).
:-).
Just upgraded this weekend to a shiny new P4T-E and 1.6a OC'd to FSB133 and 2.13GHz, rock solid stable and running cool at 1.5v
ASUS mobos definitely earn their #1 ranking, though I can't agree with the review only giving genuine Intel mobos only a 5.5 on performance. Every Intel mobo I've seen runs equally as fast as it's ASUS counterpart when at stock clocking speeds.
If your thinking of getting a great board for a server then look no further then chaintek. WHen I here of chainteck I think of reliable. Just this board and WindowsNT could keep your server up for ages.
check out:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/c/cyrusgre.asp
Cyrus the Great See also: Ancient History Middle Eastern Biographies
(sires), d. 529 BC, king of Persia, founder of the greatness of the Achaemenids and of the Persian Empire. According to Herodotus, he was the son of an Iranian noble, the elder Cambyses, and a Median princess, daughter of Astyages. Many historians, following other ancient writers (such as Ctesias), deny this genealogy, and the whole of Cyrus' life is encrusted with legend. Cyrus overthrew Astyages, king of the Medes, sometime between 559 BC and 549 BC He entered Ecbatana and, taking over the Median kingdom, began to build a great empire after the Assyrian model. Cyrus' objectives were to gain power over the Mediterranean coast, secure Asia Minor, and civilize the east. Croesus of Lydia, Nabonidus of Babylonia, and Amasis II of Egypt, joined by Sparta, tried to build a strong alliance against him, but to no avail. He defeated and captured Croesus (546 BC), and Lydia became a satrapy under the Persian government. The Chaldaean empire of Babylonia fell to Cyrus in 538 BC He did not conquer Egypt, but he prepared the way for later Persian victories there. Cyrus demanded the surrender of the Greek cities that had been under Lydia, and they also became satrapies of Persia. Cyrus was much admired by the Jews, whom he favored, placing them in power in Palestine. His motive was probably to create a buffer state between Persia and Egypt, but the result was a rehabilitation of Israel. Cyrus was admired as a liberator rather than a conqueror, because he respected the customs and religions of each part of his vast empire. The exact limits of Cyrus' eastern conquests are not known, but it is possible that they reached as far as the Peshawar region. He used Susa, Ecbatana, and Babylon as his capitals but was buried at Pasargadae, where he had built a splendid palace. At his death his son Cambyses succeeded him, despite the ambitions of another son, Smerdis.
Jerusalem's history stretches back about 5,000 years. About 2500 BC, the Canaanites inhabited the city. Later, Jerusalem became a Jebusite citadel. When DAVID captured the city (c.1000 BC), the Jebusites were absorbed into the Jewish people. David made Jerusalem the capital of his kingdom, and SOLOMON built the first Temple to house the Ark of the Covenant. In 586 BC, the Babylonian NEBUCHADNEZZAR II destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple and exiled the Jews to Babylonia. Fifty years later (537 BC), CYRUS THE GREAT of Persia conquered Babylonia and permitted the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their Temple.
No, the Jews are real criminals, they are the Nazis of our time.
JERUSALEM--Since Yom Kippur in 1973, Israel has not experienced a violent Arab attack so laced with savage contempt for our people and our heritage as we experienced on Pessah Eve this year.
The message Palestinian terrorists are sending us is crystal clear: We will murder you at every opportunity, in every place, at any time--even on the holiest of your days.
An unremitting carnage that indiscriminately slaughters all who come within the murderous reach of Palestinian terrorists shows the depths of their hatred. Clearly, the only constraint for Arab terrorists is their destructive capability. Given the power, they would destroy all of us, down to the last infant.
The primary objective of Yasser Arafat's terrorist regime is not to establish the 22nd Arab state, but to destroy the only Jewish state. This was and remains the heart of the conflict.
In 1948, the Arabs rejected an international resolution that would have established an Arab state, and instead attempted to destroy an embryonic Jewish state. Fifty-two years later, Arafat rejected a similar offer and demanded the flooding of Israel with millions of Palestinians, a measure that would effectively bring about the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state.
With such a regime, whose ultimate objective is our destruction and which pursues this objective by the most barbaric means imaginable, there is no place for negotiations and no hope for reaching any sustainable peace agreement.
Indeed, the much vaunted political solution to end the conflict was in fact attempted two years ago at Camp David, and it utterly failed. Arafat rejected a scandalously far-reaching Israeli offer of a sovereign Palestinian state in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip, which included half of Jerusalem, and instead chose to unleash the present war of terror against Israel.
There is only one option that is now available to Israel: to decisively win the war that has been forced upon us. What is required of us today is not a willingness to clench our teeth and bear this ongoing violence. We must instead seek a total military victory against an implacable enemy that is waging a terrorist war against us.
First, we must immediately dismantle the Palestinian Authority and expel Arafat. Second, we must encircle the main Palestinian population centers, purge them of terrorists, and eradicate the terrorist infrastructure. Third, we must establish security separation lines that will allow Israeli armed forces to enter Palestinian territory, but prevent Palestinian terrorists from entering our towns and cities.
The choice we face today is not between military victory and a security separation. Rather, we must do both together. Only by combining the two can we stop the terror, restore a deterrence that has been dangerously eroded in the last two years, and enable a realistic and moderate leadership to emerge among the Palestinians with which we can pursue a political settlement in the future.
Like a partial dose of antibiotics that is not sufficient to cure the disease, the partial actions of the government and the fitful changes between a policy of restraint and half-hearted military action has not and will not achieve anything. Our excessive concern about the international community has also borne bitter fruit. Israel's refusal so far to act, as would any other self-respecting nation, heightens the doubts in the minds of our friends of our belief in the justice of our cause and encourages our enemies to increase the bloodshed.
The only way to win international understanding for our position, especially in America, is to steadfastly assert our basic right to defend ourselves and achieve a quick and decisive military victory that will stop the terrible massacre of our citizens.
Finally, the claim that we have tried all military means to end the terror is baseless. We have used but a small fraction of our military power, and even that has not been directed at the right target: ending Arafat's regime. Today, after 18 months of terrorism, the government continues to work under the illusion that it is possible to stop terrorism without dismantling this main terrorist engine.
What is absolutely clear is that we cannot continue, even for one more day, on a path of indecision, without a goal or a policy. We must do what any nation in our position would do: stop bickering among ourselves, fight the war that has been forced upon us, and vanquish an enemy who is determined to annihilate us.
What a load of crap but what do you expect from a nation that elects a war criminal Isreal deserves what they get
Muslim Conference Split Over Whether Suicide Bombers Are Terrorists
By Rohan Sullivan Associated Press Writer
Published: Apr 1, 2002
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) - Muslim countries were split over whether to condemn Palestinian suicide bombers as terrorists at the start of a major Islamic conference Monday.
Fault lines appeared immediately as the Palestinian representative disagreed with Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, the meeting's host, who said that suicide bombers killing Israeli civilians should be regarded as terrorists.
"It is not necessary to condemn the suicide bombers, because we have to take into consideration the reasons behind somebody willing to lose his life," Palestinian Foreign Minister Farouk Kaddoumi told reporters at the conference. (A Palestinian "dignitary" calling terrorists martyrs. HAHAHAHAHA.)
Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is "the highest and worst kind of terrorism, and the human being, if he sacrifices his life - there must be a reason," Kaddoumi said. "The reason is state terrorism." (Oh fucking please, please. This is such cock biting bullshit. IDF has become the mommie and daddie police officers for these stupid losers, who call themselves Palestinians)
Deputy Foreign Minister Ivica Misic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, chief of his country's anti-terrorism team, disagreed. (Thank God, a reasonable person is present)
"I don't care about race or religion," Ivica said. "I agree that if a person kills or harms a civilian he is a terrorist, no matter how noble his struggle may be." (DING DING DING DING, our survey says most rational people agree)
An attempt to paper over the divisions with a resolution condemning Israel for state terrorism was passed unanimously, but the conference risked bogging down under the old dilemma: when is a terrorist a freedom fighter? (Never. You stupid fucks. You never kill innocent people.)
Mahathir, a vital U.S. ally in the campaign to crack Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network, called for agreement that any attack on civilians - by the Sept. 11 hijackers, Israel's army or Palestinian suicide bombers - be labeled terrorism. (Thank you, thank you. Voice of reason here boys)
"Muslims everywhere must condemn terrorism, once it is clearly defined," Mahathir said. "Bitter and angry though we may be, we must demonstrate to the world that Muslims are rational people when fighting for our rights and we do not resort to acts of terror." (So far, no good. No Muslim countries have done this for very long. Its almost an act for them. They really are out of control corrupted regimes that can not act civil for more than a decade)
Mahathir, Asia's longest-serving leader, hopes that the three-day meeting of the 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference will lead to a United Nations convention to define terrorism and an accepted way to hold perpetrators accountable, including governments. (Thank you, if your government is a PIECE of TERRORIST shit, say, time to nuke, con te partiro, fuckstickus maximus)
Malaysia has been pushing for an international conference since Sept. 11, which Mahathir said had hurt the image of Islam. (Shoulda happened sooner. Man these Mulsims are shitty at Public Relations, and they got that Islamic ball sucker Christiana Amanpour licking Islams nuts all over CNN. Al Jazeera is a hooligan terrorist sponsored crime ring as well.)
The gathering of foreign ministers and other officials follows escalating bloodshed in the Middle East. Palestinian suicide bombings killed 15 Israelis on Sunday and Israeli troops deepened their invasion of the West Bank.
Malaysia, which has urged participants to refrain from emotional rhetoric so the meeting will be seen as positive by the non-Muslim world, resisted Arab pressure to include a condemnation of Israel in the main declaration, which should be issued Wednesday. (Of course it did, Israel isn't doing anything wrong.)
In a compromise, a separate statement was adopted in Monday urging the U.N. Security Council to provide protection to Palestinians "and apply deterrent sanctions against Israel."
Israel's actions were "dragging the region toward an all-out war," the statement said.
Iraqi Foreign Minister Naji Sabri, who arrived late, said the United Nations had failed so far to reign in Israel because "they are allies of the Israelis."
Any final declaration on terror could meet death in committee. Qatar's foreign minister, Sheik Hamad bin Jassem bin Jabor Al Thani, chairman of the Islamic Conference, suggested forming a panel to study an anti-terror document agreed to in 1999.
Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi, asked by reporters about the suicide bombings, said that "civilians should be spared. At the same time, if we are looking for a solution to this problem, we have to look at the cause of this conflict."
Mahathir said the Sept. 11 attacks, blamed on Saudi-born Islamic radical Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida group, were an "unmitigated disaster" for the world's estimated 1.2 billion Muslims, with the religion becoming increasingly perceived as rooted in violence.
Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and other groups have produced terrorists, and singling out one religion was unfair, Mahathir said.
Malaysia is a prosperous Southeast Asian country of 23 million people and has jailed 24 people accused of involvement in an al-Qaida-linked plot to blow up U.S. targets in Singapore. They include a former army captain who hosted two of the Sept. 11 hijackers at his apartment in 2000.
Terrorists suck. You know, when someone else has to jerk you off and wipe your ass, they never do it as well as you can. Same goes true for the world and cleaning up criminals. Id Uncle Sam has to traipse halfway across the globe to clean up your shit, or if Israel has to do it, don't fucking complain when they don't do it "right," whatever that means. Its war, its ugly, if you don't like it , do what M.L. King and Gandhi did so well and try the pacifism hat on for a fucking change, PLEASE.
This is very well written. It amazes me that Jews (the author says he or she is Jewish) are so skillful at lying to themselves.
The issue is not whether there was ever a Palestinian state. The issue is why the Jews annoy the surrounding cultures until the other cultures want to kill them. This has been happening for 3,200 years.
I read the Intel review; it contains the same horses**t that most so-called enthusiasts heap on Intel the boards. Let's review some of the issues:
Granted, Intel boards are more expensive. But overall, they do not deserve the bad reputation from enthusiasts.
For the book says, "We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us."
The dirty fuckhead, Sodom Strapon Hussein has spoken his utter words of fitlth.
Iraqi President Saddam Hussein says he's ready to go to war using one of his most effective weapons: oil. We blew the rest of his shit up
Saddam has indicated that he's ready to turn off the taps to use crude as a weapon to punish countries supporting Israel, and has told other Arab nations to follow his lead in an escalating war of words. If he shuts off the oil, more people will starve, because the oil is being traded for food with the OIL FOR FOOD PROGRAM. http://www.un.org/Depts/oip/reports/basfact.html
"It's a disgrace on all Arabs and believers everywhere in the world if they don't help their Palestinian brothers in their battle," Saddam told his ruling Ba'ath Party in a speech Sunday night before the directive to Arab nations. "If Arabs want to put an end to Zionism, they are able to do so in 24 hours." Snore, like they could do shit to Israel, they tried 4 times, the Arab scum, do it again, towels, do it.
Iraq pumps out 200,000 barrels of oil a day and is the fifth-largest producer of oil for the United States despite sanctions that allow Iraq to sell only enough oil to pay for humanitarian and medical relief for its citizens.
"Saddam Hussein has made similar threats in the past and has not followed through. It's a little bit like the little boy who cried wolf," said Erik Gustafson, an Iraqi policy expert. Money grubbing pussy
"This is a desperate attempt on his part to stay in power. Ultimately, it's not going to work and within 12 months, Saddam Hussein is going to be out, and I think he's going to be in his equivalent of paradise, he['s] not going to be on this Earth," forecast Forbes magazine publisher Steve Forbes. What a fag. The Palestinians look real good with this fuckhead supporting their shit cause.
But this time around, oil industry experts say Saddam's going to have a harder time rallying the oil-producing troops.
"Most oil-producing nations within OPEC will not use oil as a weapon. It will be a weapon of last resort as far as they're concerned," said Phil Flynn of Alaron Trading.
"The real question is: Does an embargo go along with an output reduction by OPEC? But let's remember something about Saudi Arabia. They export around 1.7 million-1.8 million barrels of oil a day to the U.S. About a third of that goes to a half-owned refining system. They're half owner so are they going to embargo their own refining system?" asked John Kingston, Platts' global director of oil.
Just the threat of further unrest in the area destabilizes crude markets. Saddam's words could have an impact on prices just by talking loudly and holding a big oil reserve.
"The significant part of all this, however, is that it has really come to the point that Saddam can make a statement like this and that it doesn't fall on deaf ears," said Samer Shehata, a professor of Middle Eastern Studies at Georgetown University.
Arafat's Book-Keeping Department Yields
Bill Linking Him to Suicides
2 April: This piece of correspondence was discovered by Israeli troops who went through the files in Yasser Arafat's personal accounting department in Ramallah. It is an itemized bill signed by the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades - Palestine, and dated September 16, 2001, exactly five days after the September 11 suicide attacks in the United States.
The document is a routine request for Arafat to approve the daily outlay for the arming of suicides with explosives and ammo, their memorial ceremonies and funeral posters.
It is part of the body of evidence Israeli troops gleaned at Arafat's headquarters in Ramallah and demonstrates that Arafat supervised every last detail of the Palestinian suicide offensive.
Translation into English:
1. Cost of posters for Martyrs of the al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades: Azam Mazhar, Osama Juabra, Shadi Afouri, Yasser Badawi, Ahad Fares (inserted by hand: NIS2,000).
2. Cost of printed notices, invitations and mourners' tents (inserted by hand: NIS1,250.
3. Cost of attaching personal photos of these martyrs to wooden panels, plus those of Tabeth Tabeth and Mahmoud al Jamil (inserted by hand: NIS1,000).
4. Cost of memorial ceremonies for martyrs. Memorial ceremonies held for Martyr Azam, Martyr Osama (inserted by hand: NIS6,000)
5. Cost of electrical goods and miscellaneous chemical substances (for manufacturing explosives and bombs - the largest item. (One prepared explosive device - NIS700 at least) We need 5-9 devices per week for the squads in the different regions (inserted by hand: NIS x 4 = NIS20,000 per month)
6. Cost of bullets (cost of Kalashnikov ammo is NIS -8 per bullet; M-16 bullets cost NIS2-2.5 each) We need bullets supplied on a daily basis.
7. Note: Available are 3,000 Kalashnikov bullets @ NIS2 each. We need a sum of money at once to buy them (inserted by hand: NIS22,500 for Kalashnikov bullets - NIS60,000 for M-16 bullets)
In conclusion, glory and pride to those who support our brave resistance against the occupation. Revolution until victory.
Islam is Death, Death to Islam.
Palestinian Tanzim Militiamen Hold 10 Priests and Nuns Hostage in Bethlehem's Santa Maria Church
April 2, 2002. Death to Infatedeh
Islam is Death, Death to Islam.
A Crash Course on the Arab-Israeli Conflict.
Overlooked facts in the current Middle East situation.
1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.
3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E., the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.
12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands.
Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.
13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.
15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel. 18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.
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Palestinian Attack on Powell Motorcade Foiled
DEBKAfile Special Report
12 April: Israeli security foiled a Palestinian terrorist attempt to hit the motorcade driving US secretary of state Colin Powellfrom Ben Gurion Airport to Jerusalem Thursday night, April 12, shortly after he landed. The Secretary was accompanied by Israeli foreign minister Shimon Peres and heads of the US embassy.
Just before 9 pm IT, two hours before the US Secretary arrived, a Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance was stopped by a hidden Israeli security patrol near the gas station on the Modi'in-Jerusalem Highway 443. The driver and his mate had all the necessary permits for transporting a dead Palestinian policeman to the Gaza Strip. However, since Yasser Arafat's confinement in Ramallah, security has been intensified on all traffic coming from the direction of the Palestinian town, in case of an attempt to smuggle him out. In any case, in a war situation, in which passage from the West Bank to the Gaza Strip has been suspended, all permits are checked for forgeries.
The ambulance was therefore opened up and searched carefully. Hidden under the corpse was a large supply of explosives and a suicider's bomb belt.
According to some of DEBKAfile's sources, the two Palestinians admitted under questioning that they had planned to pull the ambulance up on the Jerusalem-Tel Aviv expressway, the route taken later by the Powell motorcade. One of the men was to stay in the vehicle, while the other strapped on the bomb belt and hid in some roadside bushes. When the secretary's car drove by, the ambulance was rigged to explode. The second bomber was then supposed to leap into the milling crowd of officials and security men and blow himself up.
At 22:07 IT, the booby-trapped Red Crescent ambulance was blown up in a controlled explosion, creating a bang loud enough to frighten dwellers in a broad radius and start the rumor of a rocket attack. Israel security is now investigating the provenance of the Red Crescent ambulance and the official permits.
Islam is Death, Death to Islam
Palestinians are not allowing Red Crescent ambulances or other undertakers to take the bodies of fallen Palestinians to the morgues. The reason they are saving the dead in their houses is so that after the IDF vacates an area, they can create mass graves. I hope the *pathetic* media, and the communist fools in the E.U. and the U.N. see through this garbage.
1 ,1 101020408-221122,00.ht
On another note, an AP news reporter was caught making up Palestinian testimony in order to make the IDF look bad.
I laughed while flipping through Time magazine, normally a left-ish (academic and removed treatment of geopolitical kluges) publication, even they explicit cover how Arafat is indeed more concerned with Heroism and personal gain and martyrdom than building a Palestinian state, as exemplified by him telling Clinton and Barak to F.O.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,917
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EXCERPT from TIME Magazine:
Monday, Apr. 08, 2002
Yasser Arafat
It's fair to assume that there are places Yasser Arafat would rather be than imprisoned in his own compound with Israeli tank commanders as wardens. But it's not by mistake that he wound up there. Even if Arafat didn't anticipate exactly how the situation would unfold, this is a war he wanted.
For some time after the first Oslo peace accord in 1993, Arafat appeared to have genuinely embraced the idea of pursuing his political goal--an independent Palestinian state--through negotiations alone. But something flipped. That became evident two summers ago when, at talks at Camp David, the Israelis offered him their best deal yet on a state. By objective measure, the offer still wasn't good enough, but Arafat didn't merely reject it. He could have asked for more or counter-proposed; instead he left the table, went home and fueled a new uprising, which led to this war.
Why? Arafat is old, ailing and preoccupied with how he'll be remembered when he's gone. The only way for him to be Arafat the dealmaker, founder of Palestine, would be to sell short the Palestinian dream. No Israeli leader will give him a state unless he relinquishes claim to all or most of East Jerusalem, allows Israel to gobble up parts of the West Bank to accommodate the Israelis who have moved there and tells the Palestinian refugees from the 1948 war that they can forget about their U.N.-sanctioned right to go back to homes that are now part of Israel proper. On some level, Arafat may understand that all these compromises must be made before Palestine is born, but they won't happen on his watch. At this point he's much more interested in being a hero than in being a leader.
What to do in the meantime? Arafat can't have failed to notice that his approval ratings go up when his people are battling Israel; when things are relatively calm, they have time to notice what a corrupt, incompetent government he heads. Plus, Arafat figures the violence will demoralize the Israelis and soften their positions at the negotiating table. Violence has worked before. The hijackings of the 1970s kept the Palestinian cause alive in a way that Kurds and Basques can only envy. The first intifadeh, though far less brutal than this one, brought the Palestinians the Oslo peace talks. And, most relevant to Arafat today, Lebanon's Hizballah militia compelled Israel to withdraw unconditionally from south Lebanon two years ago--just before the fateful Camp David talks--by bloodying Israeli troops in the field and Israeli civilians along the border. What Hizballah got, Arafat wants too. He can't fight a conventional war with Israel because he has no real military. And so the suicide bombers are his army.