The problem is that this guy is not in Apple's market. Apple is not going after people who want to tinker around with hardware and buy componets that have 0.1% markup. They want to sell to computer *users* like schools, small businesses, and the typical home user (like your mother). With that said, I do have to agree with the price issue that he raised. In the end, most people will probably choose a lower price over a cooler computer (iMac, for example). Apple needs a value line that competes with the $800 PC's.
Off topic but I'm pretty chuffed as we put it back together a few hours ago and it's still alive. It does have a (extra low noise) fan now but it's still almost silent.
Hope it keeps going:)
Re:Apple's Market
by
PoiBoy
·
· Score: 2, Informative
They already have something to compete with the $799 Gateways and Dells -- a $799 iMac. Although l337 g33ks may find it sluggish, for the average user it's a great deal. It does everything PC's do, and it's (flame suit on) easier for mom and dad to figure out how to use than a Windows box.
-- Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
"In the end, most people will probably choose a lower price over a cooler computer"
By that logic, everyone would drive Geo Metros. I think most comsumers just don't realizes that they have a choice.
I think most consumers just don't want to be bothered with something different. In fact, many are downright scared of not being part of the Windows herd.
It means they actually have to think about their computing decision.
I think the Apple Stores are going to help a lot here. Definitely the coolest place to buy a computer.
D
So why is this "news"?
by
Lars+T.
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
There is absolutely nothing in that article that hasn't been said already. Even the G4 ATX style motherboard isn't a new idea - infact they are being sold (but can't run OS X).
--
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Simply because there are no drivers for them in OS X. I guess somebody could write them into Darwin and than take that and put the rest of OS X on top of that - but then you'ld run into Apple's EULA.
Those boards cost as much as (or even more than) a complete Mac anyway, so why bother.
--
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
How insightful. Just because it has been said a thousand times and you don't like it, does not make it untrue. It just makes you a fool, which is your real qualm with those of us who speak the truth.
--
If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.
Fucking moron. I didn't say it was untrue, I said it wasn't news. Learn to read and/or get your head out of your own ass.
--
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
They do have an $800 line ... Re:Apple's Market
by
nether
·
· Score: 3, Informative
It's the original iMac (iMac Classic). It's priced to sell at $799.
Big problem is that Apple doesn't push it, and it's targetted at the edu segment. I'm not even sure you can get it if you are not edu.
If apple put some marketing into this line as well as the iMac line, then that would be great. It would make a well rounded computing lineup.
IMO, I think apple is not doing this because of three things. 1., they are afraid that it would canabilize their iMac sales. The margin on the Classic can't be that much. 2. It would cost more in terms of having product in the channel and additional production costs. 3. It would add confusion on what you, the consumer, should buy.
__nether
Re:They do have an $800 line ... Re:Apple's Market
by
coolgeek
·
· Score: 2
Looks like you can buy one if you go here and scroll down a bit.
--
cat/dev/null >sig
Re:They do have an $800 line ... Re:Apple's Market
by
daviddennis
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· Score: 2
I somehow don't think they're afraid of cannibalizing flat panel iMac sales - they're selling every one of those they can build.
I think Jobs is simply embarassed by the older machines. He'll sell one to you if you'd buy a PC instead, but he'd really rather not. So he puts them in an inconspicuous corner of the page and hopes for the best.
D
Re:They do have an $800 line ... Re:Apple's Market
by
daviddennis
·
· Score: 2
When I visited Fry's about a week ago, there were four available - and at the old lower price.
I saw one person wheeling his out of the store on my way in.
So I suspect they're all gone by now:-(.
I normally go for the professional line, but I have to admit that I'd love one just to admire the design.
But I'm saving up for that 23" Cinema Display instead. Every home user needs at least one or two of those.
D
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
garren_bagley
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
You cannot do everything on a PC that you can do on a Mac. I bought my first Mac a month ago for the quality of entry level video editing. Within one day I had burned a DVD of my most recent ski vacation with edits and a soundtrack. I tried this for a long time on my PC which was supposedly more powerful and was never satisfied with the results. At one point I upgraded my PC to Windows XP and found it was incompatible with my Microsoft Mouse!
It is also not possible to do this on Linux, I tried that to. After finally getting firewire to work I found that there were too many incompatible file formats. Maybe you can get it to work but I'm tired of tinkering every night.
My SGI Irix machine worked fine. HELL! it is just 1 180MHZ RK500 and still seems faster than my PC but I could only get a 4 gig hard drive.
Everything else I've discovered that I love (iTunes, iPod, iPhoto) is just gravy.
Another idiot blowing his horn....
by
Auckerman
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
His points: 1. Macs are Expensive 2. He buys components to "stay ahead of the curve" 3. Mhz
My points: Number 1 and number 3 are MULTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Every 4 or so years (+/- 1) I buy a Mac. It usually takes that long for a new use of computers to come along that challenge previous processors. I bought a 6100/60 to do word processing, e-mail, and what is now basic web browsing. I bought an iMac for mp3, CDRW, digital imaging (with larger images than the 6100 liked). I will buy a G4 iMac in the next year or so for digital video. I average about $1200 for 4 years, which is about $300 a year, or $1/day. I spend more on coffee/lattes than I do on Macs. Now my PC (bought to play video games). Every 6 months or so I do a mobo and/or processor replacement so that I can buy any game in CompUSA/BestBuy, which is about $250 a year in UPGRADE costs. That doesn't even take into account graphic cards (1 new one a year), hard drives (when I run out of space or when the cost of a new one that is 3X as big is same as origional drive), replacement monitors (evey few years), etc. All in all, I spend a little more on my PC use than I do on my Macs.
Number 3 is a bunch of shit. Think of it like this. When one purchases a computer, they (hopefully) buy it for a purpose. They have a need they are fulfilling. Lets use are car example. Lets say you could buy a sedan for $15000 or a normal run of the mill city car for $15000. Based on a simple look the sedan is a better deal. Now lets say that sedan had the drivers seat on the wrong side of the car AND every year you had to buy brand new tires to keep up with roads designed for sedans. Not only that the Sedan pollutes the fuck out of the enviroment, some times doesn't start for any appearant reason, and the radio keeps turning itself on to the easy listening station once you achieve highway speeds. Sedan isn't looking so good anymore, especially since the normal car is reliable, doesn't treat you as if you are the enemy.
His points are stupid. There are reasons NOT to buy Macs, but these aren't among them. He's an average WinTroll trying to get web hits and it worked.
--
Burn Hollywood Burn
Re:Another idiot blowing his horn....
by
IpalindromeI
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· Score: 4, Interesting
Number 3 is a bunch of shit. Think of it like this. When one purchases a computer, they (hopefully) buy it for a purpose. They have a need they are fulfilling.
Unfortunately, this isn't really true, in general. Many people *don't* have a purpose in mind when they go out computer shopping. Last summer at work I was talking to this guy about computer upgrades and he was talking about his new computer. The 1Ghz's had just come out and he was getting one right away, upgrading from like a 700mhz I think. Then he talked about the kinds of things he did on his computer; the most CPU intensive task was playing a flight sim:P People just want the latest-and-greatest, they don't care that they're wasting their money getting features they don't need and won't use. Oh well, I guess it's what keeps the industry alive.
--
-- Promoting critical thinking since 1994.
Re:Another idiot blowing his horn....
by
EddydaSquige
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· Score: 2, Insightful
That's so true. People get roped into demanding the biggest thing out there with no real need (think SUV's). Most average computer users (ie, prob no one who reads/.) would probably be just as happy with a two or three year old computer as they are with the latest and greatest. I still have an old p166 beating around that my girlfriend uses to check email, surf the web, a MS Word, and you know what, it does all of those things great. Can it do video or work on a 1gb Photoshop file, no, but it doesn't need to. That's why I bought a G4. That 4 year old p166 does all the stuff that it needs to do, and that's all the stuff that alot of people need a computer to do.
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
IpalindromeI
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· Score: 2, Insightful
If Macs were the equivalent of a high-level language, while PCs were the equivalent of assembly, why don't Macs have the equivalent market/mindshare that high-level languages enjoy over assembly? A better analogy might be that you can do everything with Cadillac that you can with a BMW. You can enjoy a nice, luxurious driving experience, while the BMW is basically just flashier and more expensive.
--
-- Promoting critical thinking since 1994.
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
Mr.Intel
·
· Score: 2
You cannot do everything on a PC that you can do on a Mac
I disagree. I have burned several DVDs, both home movies and legal copies of movies. As for Win/Linux, I use both and have had success with both. Granted that I work in the entertainment industry and have access to drivers/support/help that most don't. I have a dual P3-ghz machine with a gig of RAM that I built myself. It has RH 7.2 and Win2k. I also have a kick ass video card and that probably helps. I guess what I mean to say is that a Mac is great for people who want a no brain solution to digvid, "Everything else I've discovered that I love (iTunes, iPod, iPhoto) is just gravy." Exactly.
After finally getting firewire to work I found that there were too many incompatible file formats. Maybe you can get it to work but I'm tired of tinkering every night.
I never had a problem, but maybe my firewire board is made differently. All I know is that I have no incentive to look at a Mac when I can do all I need with a PC. Not to mention that I can upgrade without breaking the bank.
-- ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
Interesting user base
by
(trb001)
·
· Score: 2, Informative
First, some background: I'm a Programmer/System Administrator with a heavy bias towards Open Source software.
And this guy's article got posted on Slashdot? Wow, whoda thunk...
Honestly, this guy isn't in the arena to buy a Mac. In the same sense, my roommate who is a graphics art/animation major in college is dying for a new iMac/Powerbook. Everyone in her classes seems to use them and love them. Myself, very similar to this guy (programmer/general computer geek), I would never even consider a Mac...more likely I would piece components together into one of the three have/fully built cases I have already sitting around my office.
--trb
Some problems here...
by
gfilion
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
The author says PowerMac G4 933MHz with a 60Gb hard drive, 256Mb of RAM, and a Super Drive (that's DVD and CD-RW people!). This is going to run me $2,299.00. At Dell's website (Dude, yer getting' a Dell) I can get a 1.8GHz Dimension with an 80Gb drive for $1,497.00. That's $800 dollars less for the same functionality, more hard drive space, twice the clock speed (I won't get into CPU architecture), and your required contribution to the Microsoft Empire in the form of Windows XP and Microsoft Works.
First, the superdrive is a DVD-R and CD-RW, it burns DVDs and CDs. The Dell doesn't have that, and guess what, it costs about 800$ to get one. The assembled-with-the-cheapest-possible-parts-PC doesn't have a warrantee, so it's not a fair comparaison.
Also, his whole argument about weither more MHz is better is quite stange. At first he says that only Joe Sixpack thinks that, and people who know computer architecture relalise that the MHz are only a part of a computer speed. Two lines later, he says that the Mac is slower because it has a lower frequency.
Let me tell you something, if you ever have two computers that have the same performances (time to do a task), always take the one with the lower frequency, you'll have a more stable system, it will produce less heat, etc.
Overall, it was a pretty crappy article... GFK's
Re:Some problems here...
by
coolgeek
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
A comparably equipped Gateway, of course with a 2Ghz P4, is a mere $300 less than the G4/933. Both with large flat panel displays, of course. Being a guy who has purchased a whole glut of commodity hardware, and built my lab of 7 Pentiums $200 at a time, I have to say I was never able to appreciate the value of a Mac until I bought one and started using it as my "daily driver". For example, said G4/933 has 2MB L3 cache running at 1/2 clock speed. More than enough to keep your average loop-calls-several-nested-subroutines close at hand, and scads more than the what 0K (of L3-cache =) stock on a P4. The SuperDrive extracts CD audio at about 11-16x, ripping a whole CD in 2-4 minutes. Power management that really works. Or, on my TiBook, I actually get about 4-5 hours battery life when writing/testing code. Why? because Apple developed a power management chip that keeps all system clocks running, but idles the CPU down when the system encounters idle time, then bounces back to full speed in a few milliseconds. That kind of developement will never happen in a commodity PC market. And my VAIO never passed the 3.5 hour mark with TWO batteries.
And all that "fancy" design is more than just good looks. I can reach under the middle of my 17" Studio Display, and plug a USB device into one of the ports on the back, without moving anything, and without having too see ugly USB outlets all the time. There are many other subtle benefits resulting from Apple's design efforts. Suffice it to say, one cannot truly appreciate them until actually using them.
--
cat/dev/null >sig
Re:Some problems here...
by
coolgeek
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
I asked about which system you're speaking of because I am yet to find a PC notebook that implements the full ACPI spec. The best I've seen is systems that modify the CPU clock duty cycle, and while helpful, it doesn't improve battery life very much. The G4's implement full ACPI, summarized here, at least when it comes to CPU power.
Why newer macs are better than 6 years ago... Well, the soft power switch always works even if the CPU is totally crashed. Just hold it in for 5 seconds or so. I think there's a one-shot in discreet hooked to a solidstate relay. Just guessing. Commodity components, like SDRAM, IDE allows some upgrades "on the cheap". Gigabit ethernet built in. The beige boxes only had 10Mbps when 100Mbps was cost effective. Oh, and you don't need a crossover cable to hook one machine to the other...it swaps the pairs for you in hardware. You can put a system into "Target Disk Mode" by pressing T at bootup. Connect it to another computer with a firewire cable, and viola, disk appears on other system. Very useful for service, just root around the building with my TiBook and a cable. How about a monitor with only one cable? OS X is nice, although BSD isn't Linux. I still run all Linux outside the firewalls and its going to stay that way.
And 6 years ago, I mostly used floppies for booting up a dead system. Other than that, network or Zip.
I owned an original Macintosh. I've maintained farily decent sized networks (100+) of them, and used them secondarily for the past 6 years, and before that maintained smaller networks of them. And I totally agree with your opinion, when it comes to the older stuff. Mac OS 7.x was a total pain to network with, especially printing was unreliable. And running core OS against an emulator! WTF is that? 8.x shaped things up a bit. Then there is SCSI and "special" RAM in those old systems. Not knocking SCSI, just they used 8-bit and SCSI CDROMs are expensive and always seem to fail after the warranty expires.
Apple has changed a lot for the better. The cute image is to capture people's attention. There's a lot of thought in the design too. It's just not obvious until one uses the stuff. And I think their staying out of the commodity market is by design, because it enables them to continue innovation.
So, yes I am a somewhat new Apple fan, although a long time user and maintainer. I initially felt like it was an awful lot of money to spend on computers, although I now feel it is worth it. I spend a lot less time working on my computers and more time working with them.
--
cat/dev/null >sig
Lame Price comparison
by
AaronBaker2000
·
· Score: 4, Informative
In his example, the author explains that a Dell costs $800 less than a comparable G4 with a superdrive. However, Dell doesn't even offer a superdrive on any of their products. Where the hell does he find the basis for that comparison?!? There isn't a PC on the market that can compare with the G4's video production capabilities.
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
Lars+T.
·
· Score: 2
Good point, because Cadillacs suck just like PCs. They are ugly, loud, energy wasting and their fans think they offer the same "nice, luxurious driving experience" a BMW does.
--
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
He just doesn't get it
by
Dokushoka
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
Macs are for people who want to do stuff with their computer, not do stuff to their computer.
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
QuantumG
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
it's so funny that you mention this. My company sells a compiler for the playstation II vector unit. At present everyone who writes code for the ps2vu does so in asm. Can you imagine how stupid it seems trying to talk to people who say that they dont need a compiler cause they can do it in asm? What is most annoying is that some people in my company actually entertain the notion that they may have a point!
-- How we know is more important than what we know.
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
coolgeek
·
· Score: 2
I own and still use PCs, however I call myself a Mac user. This is always the thing with a PC, "my PC could do that IF...". With Macs, typically you just try something and it works. Not to say the Mac is free of all silly problems, it definitely has some of its own. A greater percentage of my time in front of my Macs is spent accomplishing the tasks I set out to do, instead of dealing with silly Windows (and sometimes silly Linux) problems, for example, figuring out which video software works, let alone which one works best. I can't knock Linux for its stability though, 102 days uptime each for 3 systems before the power failed.
that he found it necessary to share with us? it's like he has some kind of inner turmoil and is trying to persuade us in order to persuade himself.
ah, premonition coming on: dude, you're getting a mac.
"If it's not assembly, you're not programming"
by
alacqua
·
· Score: 4, Funny
My father programmed in assembly on PDP-11's years ago. He still says that that stuff I do isn't programming, it's writin' novels.
--
Move on. There's nothing to see here.
Re:My first "UNIX'ish" experience on my Mac
by
Mr.Intel
·
· Score: 2
How am I going to change that with a GUI?
Last I checked Perl is standard on most Linux distributions. Hey and Windows has this cool thing called "Command Prompt". I can even write a "script" called a batch file and it runs rename commands too! Yep, that's easy.
-- ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
Apple needs depth in their product line
by
elliotj
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
I'm saving up to buy a Mac at the moment. If I was buying a PC I would have done so already, but the Mac I'd be happy with is more expensive than the PC I'd be happy with.
This is an interesting distinction, and ultimately the source of my current predicament. My problem has long been that Apple's product line is too shallow and not diverse enough.
The iMac is fine, but I suspect I will want to upgrade my video card at least once over the life of my machine. Why? Because I like games. The Mac itself will last for several years but I know with the pace of game development that I'll want a new video card before the system really needs any other upgrade.
That puts me in the Powermac range, which is very pricey. I really don't want to pay for all the other bells and whistles that come with the Powermacs, like Gigabit Ethernet and a Superdrive, but I don't have a lot of choice once I get into that category. I won't even get into the financial problem of wanting a Apple display.
I just wish Apple would sell a mid range tower. That's all. But I don't presume to know the economics of their market better than they do, so there must be a reason why. Perhaps they like forcing me for save up.
Re:Apple needs depth in their product line
by
pi+radians
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
Honestly buddy, if you want to play games, get a PC or better still a PS2. I am a hardcore Mac user, the last thing I'll ever do I toss down money for a PC (luckily the college my Mom works for loves to throw out PCs all the time), but I would never suggest that someone gets a Mac for gaming purposes. It will only aggravate you with it's year old, shoddy ports and non-existent library.
I really encourage you to save up and get a Mac (you won't regret it), but make sure you have something else to play games on.
--
sin(6cos(r)+5A)
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
dutky
·
· Score: 2
Mr.Intel wrote,
Because I can do everything on a PC that I could do on a MAC.
Because I don't need flashy/trendy/cool cases to do my job.
Because I don't want to pay for an OS when I can get one for free.
Linus is much 'cooler' than Steve.
I don't need to make Toy Story 3 on my computer, just recompile a kernel and play Civ3.
I don't want that damn iMac making faces at me.
Damn, I wish I had your job! What kind of job title comes with those responsabilities (compiling a kernel and playing Civ3), anyhow?
Re:My first "UNIX'ish" experience on my Mac
by
daviddennis
·
· Score: 2
The program he wanted to import the files on probably wouldn't run under Linux.
You could probably find a Windows version of it, but he would have to go to the trouble of using the Windows command line, which in my experience is miles away from the Linux or MacOS X.
So on balance, this is a unique MacOS X advantage - a great crossover between Unix and the Mac.
D
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
Mr.Intel
·
· Score: 2
What kind of job title comes with those responsabilities (compiling a kernel and playing Civ3), anyhow?
Working at home has it's advantages...
-- ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
From an Ex-PCer
by
jellomizer
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
I use to be a Big PC guy who loved getting new hardware and upgrading my PC every couple months to keep it up to date. But after a while I just got really expensive, Even with using Linux as your only OS. So I started to let my computer fall behind the times for a while and save up my money and I got myself a Sun Ultra 10. And I felt that is was a much easier to work with the Sun then with a Linux box. Although installing some programes were a bit more difficult (Had to do the make stuff). But I never had issues with the harware no unexpected crashes from hardware, it just worked after over a year it still works perfectly. And the only thing that I really should upgrade on it is the Ram. But that is only for a speed increase not because apps require more. I can probably get at least 3 more years out of the Sun Systems sience Solaris is pritty good on working on older hardware, I can get a long life out of all the equiptment More then a PC. So now I needed a laptop so after looking around I found the PowerBook G4 to be the best bang for the buck. 1 Gig of Ram 40, Gig HD, GigaBit Eathernet, Wireless Eathernet, Larger Crisp screen. USB, Firewire. It had all the stuff I needed and I check for Dell and I couldnt build a Laptop to come have the same specs and still it became more expensive. And adding external components to it is a lot less of a hassle. And the OS works a lot more closely to the hardware then a PC ever did. The Apple saves me money because it saves me time. Doing it yourself is nice but that is if your time isn't worth to much money. For me I have to much to do and PC debuging takes way to much of my time. Why spend an Hour Debuging if you dont have to. Sun Workstation and Apple Computers have a higher operation time and a Lower TOC then PCs do. Even with a Free OS.
-- If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Yea I see the trend too. But on the plus side it is still easier to port from Linux to Soliaris/Irix/OS X then it is to port from Windows.
-- If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
daviddennis
·
· Score: 2
Interesting to see a fellow Irix + Mac user. MacOS X is a lot better in software availability terms, but the Irix interface is still the best Unix I know of. MacOS X looks better, but Irix has superior usability. And my Irix system has been super-stable - it's up for more than half a year now, which by an astonishing coincidence is the amount of time since my last hardware upgrade.
Anyway, the solution to your problem is to hook up an external SCSI hard drive. Even though SGI wants god-awful amounts of money for a certified drive, you can choose any SCSI drive you want without any trouble and minmal expense.
Easy to set up, too. I don't remember the details, but it went very smoothly for me.
Hope that helps.
D
Re:My first "UNIX'ish" experience on my Mac
by
Mr.Intel
·
· Score: 2
...go to the trouble of using the Windows command line, which in my experience is miles away from the Linux or MacOS X.
Won't argue with you there, but the point was that it was possible. I can do it in Windows/Linux on a PC and you can on a Mac. Personally, I can do things much faster with a CLI than a GUI. Convenience be damned, I prefer to be a granular as possible and therefore get exactly what I want.
-- ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
Re:My first "UNIX'ish" experience on my Mac
by
daviddennis
·
· Score: 2
You'd probably like MacOS X if you gave it a shot.
You can use a CLI when you feel like it, or a GUI when you feel like it - and both are world-class.
"I can do everything on my PC that I can do on a Mac. Of course, there were some driver and integration issues, but what do you expect? Computers are like that. Also, the video software took a while to get used to, but all software is like that. What do you think, I'm some stupid grandmother who can't figure out a few problems? Deal with it. And I don't have a SuperDrive, but who wants that? And the video software couldn't do some things I wanted, but hey, software has limitations. Besides, I can do everything on a PC that I can do on a Mac. I don't need no fancy cases. Computers are tools; you're not supposed to enjoy using them. And it's cheaper, if you don't buy an external SuperDrive, but as I said, who wants that?"
That's approximately what I hear most of the time.
I've used PC's and own one. I've also used Amigas, Ataris, NeXT, DEC Vaxen, IBM SYSTEM/360, SGI, every imaginable UN*X, Alpha, DG Nova, Cyber 205, ETA-10, TRS-80, 68HC00 and 1802-based systems I built from chips, and other stuff I can't remember right now. Not to mention overclocking the direct video board on a Thinking Machines CM-2 with 65536 processors.
I like the Mac. A G4 is my current development/word processing/video editing machine. I have no fear of hacking hardware, but when I feel like doing that, I whip out the breadboards and do it. The Mac gives me something that nothing except the Amiga gives me--an environment where issues were thought out, not always with perfect solutions, but always with a craftsmanship that is a cut above the rest. I spent most of my life and still spend it at work putting together large pieces of software. I like being able to whip out a tool with just a few lines of code in Cocoa; I like being able to have undo/redo from day 1; I like dealing with the products of designers, developers, and engineers who are not my intellectual inferiors, and I don't mind the fact that they make more money than the average code monkey, nor that this money comes out of my pocket. I like having a cooperative rather than an adversarial relationship with those who write the API's I use.
Some people don't like that sort of thing. That's cool. But you can't compare apples with mock apple pie.
From a non-gaming Mac user...
by
singularity
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
This past weekend I bought my fourth Macintosh computer. For details, you can check my journal.
Disclaimer: I do not play games on my computer. The only thing I load up is MAME about once every month or so just as a stress-releiver.
That said: I have found Macintosh computers to be very low-cost in terms of life-time expenses. Yes, up-front costs are lower for PCs, but having used PCs (my job requires PC use, and I have done tech support on them before), they are far less hassle and expense to keep running well.
In addition, Macs tend to have a longer life than a comperable PC. I admit that you can throw Linux onto an older 486 or original Pentium, but most users will not do that. Most Mac users will hold onto their Macs for several years, even in its original configuration.
So comparing up-front costs does not give you the entire story.
Also remember that you cannot put a price tag on ease of use and ability to get things done.
-- - (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
Re:From a non-gaming Mac user...
by
singularity
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· Score: 2
As an experiment and as a follow-up to my post, I went to Dell's education store and tried to configure a Dell desktop as close to my new comptuer as possible.
Dell: Dimension 8200, 1.8 GHz 256/80/DVD-RW CD-RW with a Dell 17" LCD: $2541. Apple: PowerMac G4/933 256/80/DVD-RW CD-RW with an Apple 17" LCD: $2791
Dell does not seem to offer a SCSI card as an option, so I would add about $50 to that price tag (or subtract that from the Apple price). There were a few other configurations that went on both that I am not goign to go into detail here, but I set them up about as closely as possible.
In the end, it is pretty close. I, for one, would pay the extra $200 or so for the quality of the Mac.
-- - (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
Comparing apples to apples
by
TwitchCHNO
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· Score: 5, Informative
Dell Precision Mobile Workstation M40
512MB, SDRAM Memory (2DIMMS), 48GB IDE Hard Drive, 3.5 inch 1.44MB Floppy Drive, Internal Mini-PCI NIC/Modem, Internal 8-8-8-24X SWDVD/CDRW Combo Drive, Integrated IEEE 1394 "Firewire" port. nVidia, Quadro 2 Go, 32MB, VGA Mobile Pentium®III Processor,1.20GHz-M with 15.0in UXGA Display
Mac Pros: Gigabit Ethernet 1GB SDRAM memory Airport Card Included PRICE
Mac Cons: ATI Mobility Radeon w/ 16MB DDR video memory No 3.5 inch 1.44MB Floppy Drive
Wait - Macs are too expensive? Did I miss something? A price difference of $300 dollars & gigabit ethernet & wireless ethernet & 512MB more RAM. Mac are more expensive?
-- ___________________________
I'm not a geek, but I play one on TV.
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
CtrlPhreak
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· Score: 2
1) Because I can do everything on a PC that I could do on a MAC. 3) Because I don't want to pay for an OS when I can get one for free. 4) Linus is much 'cooler' than Steve.
Wait a sec... you're claiming you can do everything a mac does on your PC and you're running linux? Don't get me wrong, I love linux and all, but it's not acclaimed for the highest quality software and ease of use as you get from a mac. (although it gets better daily)
Re:My first "UNIX'ish" experience on my Mac
by
Mr.Intel
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· Score: 2
You'd probably like MacOS X if you gave it a shot.
You can use a CLI when you feel like it, or a GUI when you feel like it - and both are world-class
I actually have access to a G4 at work and an iMac at a friends house. It's not that I have anything against Macs (my first computer was a Mac classic) it's just that I have no need to move to it. Hopefully in the future I will be able to devote some time to it and have a real base of understanding to compare it with other OSes.
-- ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
Mr.Intel
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· Score: 2
So, right after saying you want a free OS and that Linux is coolor than Steve, you admit to running a Windows game.
Ever hear of Wine? Bill doesn't get any money if I run Civ3 on Wine.
-- ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
counterpoint
by
cbowland
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· Score: 3, Informative
James Gosling (of sun and java fame) recently said he was switching to macs. To quote from the article, "And from a personal point of view, I personally actually read the [Windows] XP license and decided I couldn't sign it. So I've been shifting over to Mac. "
I understand that his reasons to switch involve licensing rather than hardward/cost/available software/etc, but I imagine that JG could pretty much run whatever he wanted without too much difficulty.
Yes, Virginia, I just bought a mac. It is fabulous (my other frequently used machines include a win 98 box, solaris 8 on both sparc and intel, and RedHat 7.2) and as advertised, it is unix with a gui that does not suck and hardware/software integration that just bloody works!
I was configuring a new sunblade the other day and the question arose, which was best KDE or Gnome? My vote -- AQUA;-} (Actually, I choose to install both but run KDE.)
--
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach him to eat and he will fish forever.
Apple == Volkswagon
by
leifw
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· Score: 5, Insightful
The best analogy I've seen for Apple's place in the computer industry is to that of Volkswagon's in the auto industry, especially VW's marketing of the new Bug. Volkwagon makes a cool looking product and then sell it with all services paid; your oil changes and other routine maintenance plus any unscheduled maintenance in the warranty period are part of the cost of the car. Of course this means the vehicle costs more, but plenty of people see it as worth while. This really appeals to people who just want a cool no-hastle vehicle.
Apple sells their products similarly; the various Macs since the iMac have been cool looking, easy to use, no hastle computers. Part of buying a Mac is the cool iTunes, iMovie, iPhoto, ietc. software that automagically does everything you bought your new PC for, including uploading your stuff to your mac.com website.
It's all about increasing coolness and decreasing hastle for both VW and Apple.
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
cappadocius
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· Score: 2, Interesting
5) I don't need to make Toy Story 3 on my computer, just recompile a kernel and play Civ3
That's what everybody seems to forget in all this: Most people don't do the stuff that a Mac is so great for. A lot of people do though, and those people are the core of Apple's market.
What apple needs to do is encourage more people to do the things Macs are good for. They don't need to sell to the people who don't care about a G4's performance on photoshop, they need to see that more people need to use photoshop and have it be fast.
No one has ever been impressed with how fast or reliably my G4 surfs the internet: you don't need a lot of speed or reliability to surf the internet. They are impressed when I create cool pictures, edit movies and animate 3D movies.
OS X has already done everything Apple can do to impress the Linux and non-casual Windoze users. Someone who only plays games and programs is never going to need a Mac. Apple needs to encourage more people to be content producers, not cater to people who are not content producers.
--
omnia tua castra sunt nobis
Re:just my two cents - or - nostalgia
by
Graymalkin
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· Score: 2
Apple gets their advertising in the form of product placement. Mimi's iMac on the Drew Carry show, nearly all of the good guys in 24 using Macs, the ginormous impossible to miss Cinema display in Holden's studio in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. Apple gets their stuff seen in the media in terms of a culture reference, if you think of Mimi's desk you think of a Grape iMac with Trolls on it. Not that everyone thinks of Mimi's desk but it is definitely a noticable prop. In ID4 Jeff Goldblum's character has a Powerbook which was part of a product placement plan because there was a deal on their website saying a Powerbook saved the world.
-- I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
Mr.Intel
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· Score: 2
Someone who only plays games and programs is never going to need a Mac. Apple needs to encourage more people to be content producers, not cater to people who are not content producers.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I don't do enough serious digvid to need a Mac. If I did, I would get an Avid box anyway.
I think you're drawing the wrong conclusion from the fact that your Windows game machine requires more upgrades.
1. The fact that you have a whole machine for gaming suggests that Mac isn't a viable gaming platform for you.
2. Games require more upgrades than mp3s, CD-RW and digital imaging
3. If Mac were a viable gaming platform for you, you'd be upgrading more. I don't know how Mac upgrade costs compare to PC upgrade costs, but you'd probably be spending more than your PC upgrade costs, and significantly less than you spend on Mac and PC combined.
I admit ignorance. But he's talking about upgrading motherboards and CPUs, which must be Mac-specific, hence lower volumes, hence higher prices. Or are motherboard upgrades even available?
> I don't buy computers anymore; I buy components. Congratulations, pal, you're not in any of Apple's target market segments. Don't let the doorknob hit you on the way out.
> I don't think Steve Jobs is concerned with Apple > making money -- excuse me, 'increasing > shareholder value'.
I hate to say this, but this guy is a moron. Just because they're not interested in catering to the shade-tree PC builder doesn't mean they don't want to make money. In fact, Jobs clearly is interested in making Apple a profitable business. Along with Dell, Apple's one of two PC companies actually doing well during this recession. So claiming otherwise is just silly.
-- Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
Re:Some MORE problems here...
by
overunderunderdone
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· Score: 3, Interesting
Actually Dell does have a combo DVD+RW/CD-RW for $429. Of course adding it STILL throws this guys numbers off.
The PowerMac also comes with a Nvidia GeForce4 MX while the stock Dell he is comparing it too has a GeForce2. I really don't know much about graphics cards so when I tried to recreate his comparison I upgraded them both to a GeForce4 Titanium which cut down the price difference some more. You also have to add the Dell movie studio package to get the FireWire ports that are standard on the Mac.
The Mac also has Gigabit ethernet which isn't an option on the Dell. Not quite sure what the value of Apple's built in ethernet card is.
The Dell has a "faster" (as in more Mhz) chip but the actual performance difference probably depends on what you are doing with it. From what I have seen it seems intel's clock speed advantage translates into a real performance advangtage but Altavec MORE than makes up for it when it can be used. So in general computing the Wintel machine wins; in mutlimedia stuff the Mac wins. In my own use mulitimedia tasks are the only processor intensive stuff I do. I will notice a perfomance advantage in FinalCut Pro but not in my wordprocessor.
Comparing the bundled software is difficult because the bundles are so different. The Dell comes with more productivity stuff; the Mac with multimedia and of course the DevTools CD. Overall, I think the Mac software bundle probably has a pretty significant edge in both quantity and quality.
Still trying to match up bullet points on spec sheets item for item, the Dell is still significantly cheaper.
Of course industrial design, the relative quality of the components and engineering don't show up on a bare spec sheet nor does even more intangible elements like "ease of use" and the like. The consensus opinion seems to be that in quality of engineering and in the attention to "intagibles" the Mac again has a significant edge. Is it worth the price premium? I guess that is for consumers to decide.
One Problem with this Article
by
piecewise
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· Score: 4, Insightful
Fortunately, I don't really care why someone else doesn't want to buy a Mac, and I don't care if they waste their time publishing an article about it.
I care that I use one every day and I love it, and I wouldn't trade it in even for the newest, maxed out Dell.
It's amazing how a company can have 90% customer loyalty -- but receive such awful press. Obviously PC users are missing something here. Brand loyalty and outstanding products aren't suppose to equal poor press and biased reporting. But hey, like I said, as a Mac owner I have the privelage of not needing to worry about it.
-- The next comment I write will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
Not a target Apple customer
by
pvera
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· Score: 3, Informative
Apple does not have the same goals as Dell or Compaq. For Apple to capture even.5% of the total PC market in the states is a huge jump, while Dell or Compaq would have to grab an extra 10% before even feeling it.
I had the same mentality as this guy, but a few things made me change, and I am in the process of saving my hard earned cash so I can afford to buy a titanium powerbook.
I am a card-carrying Microsoft-dor-whore. It is not rewarding spiritually like open source is, but it pays the bills and the projects are always a challenge. Because of the need to do things that only run on Windows I never thought about macs. Then I realized that over the last 2 years I have done 99% of my coding on a text editor (editplus, which really rocks, wwww.editplus.com) and the other 1% was done thru a terminal services client.
That meant I could use any kind of computer that could let me ftp a text file into my windows servers. Then I found out that there is a windows terminal services client written in Java that I can have for less than $50. On top of that I found out about Virtual PC. With Virtual PC I can have 3 or more computers in my back pack: A Mac, a Unix System and one or more Windows machines.
Now, I know the hardware is expensive, but he did not cover all the angles. There is no Windows laptop that can match the iBook's weight and feature set for the price. A 256MB, 600 MHZ iBook with the combo drive is 4.9 pounds and around $1500 if you add airport card.
Then, to be honest, there is no need to have my home computers running windows, even if I telecommute. I can do all my work with a Mac as long as I have the text editor and the terminal services client (I would not even need Virtual PC). And my wife could care less, she does not even use the second button in her mouse, and she was really thrilled when I took her to the Apple Store to see the new iMac.
As for components, I am sick and goddamn tired of how the homebuilt never measures up to your retal boxes. Of the 3 computers in my house the worst one is the dual processor machine I built for less than $1000. The retail Dell and the IBM Thinkpad run great.
I got modded up because somebody actually read my post. I specifically said that some Apple designs add to usability. And yeah, these include those cute little space-efficient laptops. I've even been tempted to buy a PowerBook myself -- that titanium case was meant for clumsy people like me. Pity it's so damned expensive.
But on the other hand you have cool for trivial or no reason. There's that anti-ergonomic puck-mouse. You have ethernet interfaces that support two-node networks without a hub. (Cool, but is such a narrowly useful feature worth the extra costs?) You have clear plastic cases that look great -- until maybe a week of normal use. You have first-rate monitors non-Mac people would love to buy -- but which don't have standard connectors.
Believe it or not, I'm not totally ignorant of the role of image in modern business and marketing. For my sins, I've been involved in no fewer than three rebranding efforts. Sure image and brand and style are all important. But these are just representations of the product. You have to have a solid product behind the representation, or people will see through your flim-flam. At least that's true for computers -- but computers are a little more complicated than running shoes!
Speaking of ignorance: try putting champagne in a screw-top bottle. Doesn't work.
Re:Why *I* am not buying a PC
by
Lars+T.
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· Score: 2
1) Because I can do everything on a Mac that I could do on a PC.
2) Because I don't need beige/boxy/boring cases to do my job.
3) Because I want an OS that comes free with the computer, instead of one I can "get for free" by downloading a couple hundred MBytes on my PC that doesn't have an OS on it yet.
4) Sir Clive is cooler than either.
5) I don't need to recompile a kernel to play Civ3.
6) I don't want that damn PC making noises at me.
--
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Re:Why *I* am not buying a PC
by
Mr.Intel
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· Score: 2
I don't know what it is about me you don't like, but whatever it is, I hope you are happy.
-- ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
So it's all about the benjamins
by
Frobozz0
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· Score: 2, Insightful
Let me save you from reading the article. His whole arguement is cost. Yes, we know they're more expensive. Next...
-- "Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
I did your research so you don't have to
by
plastik55
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· Score: 3, Informative
Jesus Christ, do you realize you sound like the Timecube guy? No one likes a blowhard, especially when he's wrong.
The missing keypress events aren't "not sent." They're merely sent in a nonstandard way.
I mean, all you needed to do was go to the Debian mailing list search like I told you earlier, type in "caps lock" and scroll down to serarch the "powerpc" list. Problem solved.
I should mention that I am using this patch on a recent iBook RIGHT NOW to map my Caps-lock to a Ctrl.
--
I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!
Re:just my two cents - or - nostalgia
by
Graymalkin
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· Score: 2
I've seen lots of Apple commercials, some in fact are pretty good for advertising a computer. The recent iMac commercial where the iMac sticks its "tongue" out at the guy, that is just hilarious. It definitely gets the computer noticed because it is simple. There's no blah blah megahertz or "dude you're getting an iMac". It's like, hey look at this cool sucker. Don't you want one?
-- I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Re:Why *I* am not buying a Mac
by
Mr.Intel
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· Score: 2
And if you did, you would rather get one on a Mac platform rather than an NT box. Trust me.
It's what my dad uses. And he *does* do video editing for a living.
The problem is that this guy is not in Apple's market. Apple is not going after people who want to tinker around with hardware and buy componets that have 0.1% markup. They want to sell to computer *users* like schools, small businesses, and the typical home user (like your mother). With that said, I do have to agree with the price issue that he raised. In the end, most people will probably choose a lower price over a cooler computer (iMac, for example). Apple needs a value line that competes with the $800 PC's.
There is absolutely nothing in that article that hasn't been said already. Even the G4 ATX style motherboard isn't a new idea - infact they are being sold (but can't run OS X).
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
It's the original iMac (iMac Classic). It's priced to sell at $799.
Big problem is that Apple doesn't push it, and it's targetted at the edu segment. I'm not even sure you can get it if you are not edu.
If apple put some marketing into this line as well as the iMac line, then that would be great. It would make a well rounded computing lineup.
IMO, I think apple is not doing this because of three things. 1., they are afraid that it would canabilize their iMac sales. The margin on the Classic can't be that much. 2. It would cost more in terms of having product in the channel and additional production costs. 3. It would add confusion on what you, the consumer, should buy.
__nether
You cannot do everything on a PC that you can do on a Mac. I bought my first Mac a month ago for the quality of entry level video editing. Within one day I had burned a DVD of my most recent ski vacation with edits and a soundtrack. I tried this for a long time on my PC which was supposedly more powerful and was never satisfied with the results. At one point I upgraded my PC to Windows XP and found it was incompatible with my Microsoft Mouse!
It is also not possible to do this on Linux, I tried that to. After finally getting firewire to work I found that there were too many incompatible file formats. Maybe you can get it to work but I'm tired of tinkering every night.
My SGI Irix machine worked fine. HELL! it is just 1 180MHZ RK500 and still seems faster than my PC but I could only get a 4 gig hard drive.
Everything else I've discovered that I love (iTunes, iPod, iPhoto) is just gravy.
His points:
1. Macs are Expensive
2. He buys components to "stay ahead of the curve"
3. Mhz
My points:
Number 1 and number 3 are MULTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Every 4 or so years (+/- 1) I buy a Mac. It usually takes that long for a new use of computers to come along that challenge previous processors. I bought a 6100/60 to do word processing, e-mail, and what is now basic web browsing. I bought an iMac for mp3, CDRW, digital imaging (with larger images than the 6100 liked). I will buy a G4 iMac in the next year or so for digital video. I average about $1200 for 4 years, which is about $300 a year, or $1/day. I spend more on coffee/lattes than I do on Macs. Now my PC (bought to play video games). Every 6 months or so I do a mobo and/or processor replacement so that I can buy any game in CompUSA/BestBuy, which is about $250 a year in UPGRADE costs. That doesn't even take into account graphic cards (1 new one a year), hard drives (when I run out of space or when the cost of a new one that is 3X as big is same as origional drive), replacement monitors (evey few years), etc. All in all, I spend a little more on my PC use than I do on my Macs.
Number 3 is a bunch of shit. Think of it like this. When one purchases a computer, they (hopefully) buy it for a purpose. They have a need they are fulfilling. Lets use are car example. Lets say you could buy a sedan for $15000 or a normal run of the mill city car for $15000. Based on a simple look the sedan is a better deal. Now lets say that sedan had the drivers seat on the wrong side of the car AND every year you had to buy brand new tires to keep up with roads designed for sedans. Not only that the Sedan pollutes the fuck out of the enviroment, some times doesn't start for any appearant reason, and the radio keeps turning itself on to the easy listening station once you achieve highway speeds. Sedan isn't looking so good anymore, especially since the normal car is reliable, doesn't treat you as if you are the enemy.
His points are stupid. There are reasons NOT to buy Macs, but these aren't among them. He's an average WinTroll trying to get web hits and it worked.
Burn Hollywood Burn
If Macs were the equivalent of a high-level language, while PCs were the equivalent of assembly, why don't Macs have the equivalent market/mindshare that high-level languages enjoy over assembly? A better analogy might be that you can do everything with Cadillac that you can with a BMW. You can enjoy a nice, luxurious driving experience, while the BMW is basically just flashier and more expensive.
--
Promoting critical thinking since 1994.
You cannot do everything on a PC that you can do on a Mac
I disagree. I have burned several DVDs, both home movies and legal copies of movies. As for Win/Linux, I use both and have had success with both. Granted that I work in the entertainment industry and have access to drivers/support/help that most don't. I have a dual P3-ghz machine with a gig of RAM that I built myself. It has RH 7.2 and Win2k. I also have a kick ass video card and that probably helps. I guess what I mean to say is that a Mac is great for people who want a no brain solution to digvid, "Everything else I've discovered that I love (iTunes, iPod, iPhoto) is just gravy." Exactly.
After finally getting firewire to work I found that there were too many incompatible file formats. Maybe you can get it to work but I'm tired of tinkering every night.
I never had a problem, but maybe my firewire board is made differently. All I know is that I have no incentive to look at a Mac when I can do all I need with a PC. Not to mention that I can upgrade without breaking the bank.
ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
First, some background: I'm a Programmer/System Administrator with a heavy bias towards Open Source software.
And this guy's article got posted on Slashdot? Wow, whoda thunk...
Honestly, this guy isn't in the arena to buy a Mac. In the same sense, my roommate who is a graphics art/animation major in college is dying for a new iMac/Powerbook. Everyone in her classes seems to use them and love them. Myself, very similar to this guy (programmer/general computer geek), I would never even consider a Mac...more likely I would piece components together into one of the three have/fully built cases I have already sitting around my office.
--trb
The author says PowerMac G4 933MHz with a 60Gb hard drive, 256Mb of RAM, and a Super Drive (that's DVD and CD-RW people!). This is going to run me $2,299.00. At Dell's website (Dude, yer getting' a Dell) I can get a 1.8GHz Dimension with an 80Gb drive for $1,497.00. That's $800 dollars less for the same functionality, more hard drive space, twice the clock speed (I won't get into CPU architecture), and your required contribution to the Microsoft Empire in the form of Windows XP and Microsoft Works.
First, the superdrive is a DVD-R and CD-RW, it burns DVDs and CDs. The Dell doesn't have that, and guess what, it costs about 800$ to get one. The assembled-with-the-cheapest-possible-parts-PC doesn't have a warrantee, so it's not a fair comparaison.
Also, his whole argument about weither more MHz is better is quite stange. At first he says that only Joe Sixpack thinks that, and people who know computer architecture relalise that the MHz are only a part of a computer speed. Two lines later, he says that the Mac is slower because it has a lower frequency.
Let me tell you something, if you ever have two computers that have the same performances (time to do a task), always take the one with the lower frequency, you'll have a more stable system, it will produce less heat, etc.
Overall, it was a pretty crappy article...
GFK's
In his example, the author explains that a Dell costs $800 less than a comparable G4 with a superdrive. However, Dell doesn't even offer a superdrive on any of their products. Where the hell does he find the basis for that comparison?!? There isn't a PC on the market that can compare with the G4's video production capabilities.
My Blog Sucks.
Good point, because Cadillacs suck just like PCs. They are ugly, loud, energy wasting and their fans think they offer the same "nice, luxurious driving experience" a BMW does.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Macs are for people who want to do stuff with their computer, not do stuff to their computer.
it's so funny that you mention this. My company sells a compiler for the playstation II vector unit. At present everyone who writes code for the ps2vu does so in asm. Can you imagine how stupid it seems trying to talk to people who say that they dont need a compiler cause they can do it in asm? What is most annoying is that some people in my company actually entertain the notion that they may have a point!
How we know is more important than what we know.
I own and still use PCs, however I call myself a Mac user. This is always the thing with a PC, "my PC could do that IF...". With Macs, typically you just try something and it works. Not to say the Mac is free of all silly problems, it definitely has some of its own. A greater percentage of my time in front of my Macs is spent accomplishing the tasks I set out to do, instead of dealing with silly Windows (and sometimes silly Linux) problems, for example, figuring out which video software works, let alone which one works best. I can't knock Linux for its stability though, 102 days uptime each for 3 systems before the power failed.
cat
that he found it necessary to share with us? it's like he has some kind of inner turmoil and is trying to persuade us in order to persuade himself.
ah, premonition coming on: dude, you're getting a mac.
My father programmed in assembly on PDP-11's years ago. He still says that that stuff I do isn't programming, it's writin' novels.
Move on. There's nothing to see here.
How am I going to change that with a GUI?
Last I checked Perl is standard on most Linux distributions. Hey and Windows has this cool thing called "Command Prompt". I can even write a "script" called a batch file and it runs rename commands too! Yep, that's easy.
ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
I'm saving up to buy a Mac at the moment. If I was buying a PC I would have done so already, but the Mac I'd be happy with is more expensive than the PC I'd be happy with.
This is an interesting distinction, and ultimately the source of my current predicament. My problem has long been that Apple's product line is too shallow and not diverse enough.
The iMac is fine, but I suspect I will want to upgrade my video card at least once over the life of my machine. Why? Because I like games. The Mac itself will last for several years but I know with the pace of game development that I'll want a new video card before the system really needs any other upgrade.
That puts me in the Powermac range, which is very pricey. I really don't want to pay for all the other bells and whistles that come with the Powermacs, like Gigabit Ethernet and a Superdrive, but I don't have a lot of choice once I get into that category. I won't even get into the financial problem of wanting a Apple display.
I just wish Apple would sell a mid range tower. That's all. But I don't presume to know the economics of their market better than they do, so there must be a reason why. Perhaps they like forcing me for save up.
Damn, I wish I had your job! What kind of job title comes with those responsabilities (compiling a kernel and playing Civ3), anyhow?
The program he wanted to import the files on probably wouldn't run under Linux.
You could probably find a Windows version of it, but he would have to go to the trouble of using the Windows command line, which in my experience is miles away from the Linux or MacOS X.
So on balance, this is a unique MacOS X advantage - a great crossover between Unix and the Mac.
D
What kind of job title comes with those responsabilities (compiling a kernel and playing Civ3), anyhow?
Working at home has it's advantages...
ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
I use to be a Big PC guy who loved getting new hardware and upgrading my PC every couple months to keep it up to date. But after a while I just got really expensive, Even with using Linux as your only OS. So I started to let my computer fall behind the times for a while and save up my money and I got myself a Sun Ultra 10. And I felt that is was a much easier to work with the Sun then with a Linux box. Although installing some programes were a bit more difficult (Had to do the make stuff). But I never had issues with the harware no unexpected crashes from hardware, it just worked after over a year it still works perfectly. And the only thing that I really should upgrade on it is the Ram. But that is only for a speed increase not because apps require more. I can probably get at least 3 more years out of the Sun Systems sience Solaris is pritty good on working on older hardware, I can get a long life out of all the equiptment More then a PC. So now I needed a laptop so after looking around I found the PowerBook G4 to be the best bang for the buck. 1 Gig of Ram 40, Gig HD, GigaBit Eathernet, Wireless Eathernet, Larger Crisp screen. USB, Firewire. It had all the stuff I needed and I check for Dell and I couldnt build a Laptop to come have the same specs and still it became more expensive. And adding external components to it is a lot less of a hassle. And the OS works a lot more closely to the hardware then a PC ever did. The Apple saves me money because it saves me time. Doing it yourself is nice but that is if your time isn't worth to much money. For me I have to much to do and PC debuging takes way to much of my time. Why spend an Hour Debuging if you dont have to. Sun Workstation and Apple Computers have a higher operation time and a Lower TOC then PCs do. Even with a Free OS.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Interesting to see a fellow Irix + Mac user. MacOS X is a lot better in software availability terms, but the Irix interface is still the best Unix I know of. MacOS X looks better, but Irix has superior usability. And my Irix system has been super-stable - it's up for more than half a year now, which by an astonishing coincidence is the amount of time since my last hardware upgrade.
Anyway, the solution to your problem is to hook up an external SCSI hard drive. Even though SGI wants god-awful amounts of money for a certified drive, you can choose any SCSI drive you want without any trouble and minmal expense.
Easy to set up, too. I don't remember the details, but it went very smoothly for me.
Hope that helps.
D
...go to the trouble of using the Windows command line, which in my experience is miles away from the Linux or MacOS X.
Won't argue with you there, but the point was that it was possible. I can do it in Windows/Linux on a PC and you can on a Mac. Personally, I can do things much faster with a CLI than a GUI. Convenience be damned, I prefer to be a granular as possible and therefore get exactly what I want.
ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
You'd probably like MacOS X if you gave it a shot.
You can use a CLI when you feel like it, or a GUI when you feel like it - and both are world-class.
D
"I can do everything on my PC that I can do on a Mac. Of course, there were some driver and integration issues, but what do you expect? Computers are like that. Also, the video software took a while to get used to, but all software is like that. What do you think, I'm some stupid grandmother who can't figure out a few problems? Deal with it. And I don't have a SuperDrive, but who wants that? And the video software couldn't do some things I wanted, but hey, software has limitations. Besides, I can do everything on a PC that I can do on a Mac. I don't need no fancy cases. Computers are tools; you're not supposed to enjoy using them. And it's cheaper, if you don't buy an external SuperDrive, but as I said, who wants that?"
That's approximately what I hear most of the time.
I've used PC's and own one. I've also used Amigas, Ataris, NeXT, DEC Vaxen, IBM SYSTEM/360, SGI, every imaginable UN*X, Alpha, DG Nova, Cyber 205, ETA-10, TRS-80, 68HC00 and 1802-based systems I built from chips, and other stuff I can't remember right now. Not to mention overclocking the direct video board on a Thinking Machines CM-2 with 65536 processors.
I like the Mac. A G4 is my current development/word processing/video editing machine. I have no fear of hacking hardware, but when I feel like doing that, I whip out the breadboards and do it. The Mac gives me something that nothing except the Amiga gives me--an environment where issues were thought out, not always with perfect solutions, but always with a craftsmanship that is a cut above the rest. I spent most of my life and still spend it at work putting together large pieces of software. I like being able to whip out a tool with just a few lines of code in Cocoa; I like being able to have undo/redo from day 1; I like dealing with the products of designers, developers, and engineers who are not my intellectual inferiors, and I don't mind the fact that they make more money than the average code monkey, nor that this money comes out of my pocket. I like having a cooperative rather than an adversarial relationship with those who write the API's I use.
Some people don't like that sort of thing. That's cool. But you can't compare apples with mock apple pie.
This past weekend I bought my fourth Macintosh computer. For details, you can check my journal.
Disclaimer: I do not play games on my computer. The only thing I load up is MAME about once every month or so just as a stress-releiver.
That said: I have found Macintosh computers to be very low-cost in terms of life-time expenses. Yes, up-front costs are lower for PCs, but having used PCs (my job requires PC use, and I have done tech support on them before), they are far less hassle and expense to keep running well.
In addition, Macs tend to have a longer life than a comperable PC. I admit that you can throw Linux onto an older 486 or original Pentium, but most users will not do that. Most Mac users will hold onto their Macs for several years, even in its original configuration.
So comparing up-front costs does not give you the entire story.
Also remember that you cannot put a price tag on ease of use and ability to get things done.
- (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
Dell Precision Mobile Workstation M40
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s /A ppleStore.woa/53/wo/jQIy01qrrnBvvsUvNu/0.3.0.3.30. 27.0.1.3.1.3.1.1.0?123,54
512MB, SDRAM Memory (2DIMMS),
48GB IDE Hard Drive,
3.5 inch 1.44MB Floppy Drive,
Internal Mini-PCI NIC/Modem,
Internal 8-8-8-24X SWDVD/CDRW Combo Drive,
Integrated IEEE 1394 "Firewire" port.
nVidia, Quadro 2 Go, 32MB, VGA
Mobile Pentium®III Processor,1.20GHz-M with 15.0in UXGA Display
$3,968.00
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.a
Apple G4 PowerBook
667MHz PowerPC G4 @ 133MHz
256K L2 cache @ 667MHz
1GB SDRAM memory
48GB Ultra ATA drive
Combo Drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
ATI Mobility Radeon w/
16MB DDR video memory
Gigabit Ethernet
56K internal modem
1 FireWire & 2 USB Ports
Airport Card Included
$3,699.00
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObject
Dell Pros:
nVidia, Quadro 2 Go, 32MB, VGA
3.5 inch 1.44MB Floppy Drive,
Dell Cons:
No option to upgrade memory
Price
Mac Pros:
Gigabit Ethernet
1GB SDRAM memory
Airport Card Included
PRICE
Mac Cons:
ATI Mobility Radeon w/
16MB DDR video memory
No 3.5 inch 1.44MB Floppy Drive
Wait - Macs are too expensive? Did I miss something? A price difference of $300 dollars & gigabit ethernet & wireless ethernet & 512MB more RAM. Mac are more expensive?
___________________________
I'm not a geek, but I play one on TV.
1) Because I can do everything on a PC that I could do on a MAC.
3) Because I don't want to pay for an OS when I can get one for free.
4) Linus is much 'cooler' than Steve.
Wait a sec... you're claiming you can do everything a mac does on your PC and you're running linux? Don't get me wrong, I love linux and all, but it's not acclaimed for the highest quality software and ease of use as you get from a mac. (although it gets better daily)
WikiAfterDark.com It's a sex wiki, go now!
You'd probably like MacOS X if you gave it a shot.
You can use a CLI when you feel like it, or a GUI when you feel like it - and both are world-class
I actually have access to a G4 at work and an iMac at a friends house. It's not that I have anything against Macs (my first computer was a Mac classic) it's just that I have no need to move to it. Hopefully in the future I will be able to devote some time to it and have a real base of understanding to compare it with other OSes.
ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
So, right after saying you want a free OS and that Linux is coolor than Steve, you admit to running a Windows game.
Ever hear of Wine? Bill doesn't get any money if I run Civ3 on Wine.
ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
Mac vs Win XP
I understand that his reasons to switch involve licensing rather than hardward/cost/available software/etc, but I imagine that JG could pretty much run whatever he wanted without too much difficulty.
Yes, Virginia, I just bought a mac. It is fabulous (my other frequently used machines include a win 98 box, solaris 8 on both sparc and intel, and RedHat 7.2) and as advertised, it is unix with a gui that does not suck and hardware/software integration that just bloody works!
I was configuring a new sunblade the other day and the question arose, which was best KDE or Gnome? My vote -- AQUA
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach him to eat and he will fish forever.
Apple sells their products similarly; the various Macs since the iMac have been cool looking, easy to use, no hastle computers. Part of buying a Mac is the cool iTunes, iMovie, iPhoto, ietc. software that automagically does everything you bought your new PC for, including uploading your stuff to your mac.com website.
It's all about increasing coolness and decreasing hastle for both VW and Apple.
That's what everybody seems to forget in all this: Most people don't do the stuff that a Mac is so great for. A lot of people do though, and those people are the core of Apple's market.
What apple needs to do is encourage more people to do the things Macs are good for. They don't need to sell to the people who don't care about a G4's performance on photoshop, they need to see that more people need to use photoshop and have it be fast.
No one has ever been impressed with how fast or reliably my G4 surfs the internet: you don't need a lot of speed or reliability to surf the internet. They are impressed when I create cool pictures, edit movies and animate 3D movies.
OS X has already done everything Apple can do to impress the Linux and non-casual Windoze users. Someone who only plays games and programs is never going to need a Mac. Apple needs to encourage more people to be content producers, not cater to people who are not content producers.
omnia tua castra sunt nobis
Apple gets their advertising in the form of product placement. Mimi's iMac on the Drew Carry show, nearly all of the good guys in 24 using Macs, the ginormous impossible to miss Cinema display in Holden's studio in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. Apple gets their stuff seen in the media in terms of a culture reference, if you think of Mimi's desk you think of a Grape iMac with Trolls on it. Not that everyone thinks of Mimi's desk but it is definitely a noticable prop. In ID4 Jeff Goldblum's character has a Powerbook which was part of a product placement plan because there was a deal on their website saying a Powerbook saved the world.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Someone who only plays games and programs is never going to need a Mac. Apple needs to encourage more people to be content producers, not cater to people who are not content producers.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I don't do enough serious digvid to need a Mac. If I did, I would get an Avid box anyway.
ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
I think you're drawing the wrong conclusion from the fact that your Windows game machine requires more upgrades.
1. The fact that you have a whole machine for gaming suggests that Mac isn't a viable gaming platform for you.
2. Games require more upgrades than mp3s, CD-RW and digital imaging
3. If Mac were a viable gaming platform for you, you'd be upgrading more. I don't know how Mac upgrade costs compare to PC upgrade costs, but you'd probably be spending more than your PC upgrade costs, and significantly less than you spend on Mac and PC combined.
> I don't buy computers anymore; I buy components.
Congratulations, pal, you're not in any of Apple's target market segments. Don't let the doorknob hit you on the way out.
> I don't think Steve Jobs is concerned with Apple
> making money -- excuse me, 'increasing
> shareholder value'.
I hate to say this, but this guy is a moron. Just because they're not interested in catering to the shade-tree PC builder doesn't mean they don't want to make money. In fact, Jobs clearly is interested in making Apple a profitable business. Along with Dell, Apple's one of two PC companies actually doing well during this recession. So claiming otherwise is just silly.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
Actually Dell does have a combo DVD+RW/CD-RW for $429. Of course adding it STILL throws this guys numbers off.
The PowerMac also comes with a Nvidia GeForce4 MX while the stock Dell he is comparing it too has a GeForce2. I really don't know much about graphics cards so when I tried to recreate his comparison I upgraded them both to a GeForce4 Titanium which cut down the price difference some more. You also have to add the Dell movie studio package to get the FireWire ports that are standard on the Mac.
The Mac also has Gigabit ethernet which isn't an option on the Dell. Not quite sure what the value of Apple's built in ethernet card is.
The Dell has a "faster" (as in more Mhz) chip but the actual performance difference probably depends on what you are doing with it. From what I have seen it seems intel's clock speed advantage translates into a real performance advangtage but Altavec MORE than makes up for it when it can be used. So in general computing the Wintel machine wins; in mutlimedia stuff the Mac wins. In my own use mulitimedia tasks are the only processor intensive stuff I do. I will notice a perfomance advantage in FinalCut Pro but not in my wordprocessor.
Comparing the bundled software is difficult because the bundles are so different. The Dell comes with more productivity stuff; the Mac with multimedia and of course the DevTools CD. Overall, I think the Mac software bundle probably has a pretty significant edge in both quantity and quality.
Still trying to match up bullet points on spec sheets item for item, the Dell is still significantly cheaper.
Of course industrial design, the relative quality of the components and engineering don't show up on a bare spec sheet nor does even more intangible elements like "ease of use" and the like. The consensus opinion seems to be that in quality of engineering and in the attention to "intagibles" the Mac again has a significant edge. Is it worth the price premium? I guess that is for consumers to decide.
Fortunately, I don't really care why someone else doesn't want to buy a Mac, and I don't care if they waste their time publishing an article about it.
I care that I use one every day and I love it, and I wouldn't trade it in even for the newest, maxed out Dell.
It's amazing how a company can have 90% customer loyalty -- but receive such awful press. Obviously PC users are missing something here. Brand loyalty and outstanding products aren't suppose to equal poor press and biased reporting. But hey, like I said, as a Mac owner I have the privelage of not needing to worry about it.
The next comment I write will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
Apple does not have the same goals as Dell or Compaq. For Apple to capture even .5% of the total PC market in the states is a huge jump, while Dell or Compaq would have to grab an extra 10% before even feeling it.
I had the same mentality as this guy, but a few things made me change, and I am in the process of saving my hard earned cash so I can afford to buy a titanium powerbook.
I am a card-carrying Microsoft-dor-whore. It is not rewarding spiritually like open source is, but it pays the bills and the projects are always a challenge. Because of the need to do things that only run on Windows I never thought about macs. Then I realized that over the last 2 years I have done 99% of my coding on a text editor (editplus, which really rocks, wwww.editplus.com) and the other 1% was done thru a terminal services client.
That meant I could use any kind of computer that could let me ftp a text file into my windows servers. Then I found out that there is a windows terminal services client written in Java that I can have for less than $50. On top of that I found out about Virtual PC. With Virtual PC I can have 3 or more computers in my back pack: A Mac, a Unix System and one or more Windows machines.
Now, I know the hardware is expensive, but he did not cover all the angles. There is no Windows laptop that can match the iBook's weight and feature set for the price. A 256MB, 600 MHZ iBook with the combo drive is 4.9 pounds and around $1500 if you add airport card.
Then, to be honest, there is no need to have my home computers running windows, even if I telecommute. I can do all my work with a Mac as long as I have the text editor and the terminal services client (I would not even need Virtual PC). And my wife could care less, she does not even use the second button in her mouse, and she was really thrilled when I took her to the Apple Store to see the new iMac.
As for components, I am sick and goddamn tired of how the homebuilt never measures up to your retal boxes. Of the 3 computers in my house the worst one is the dual processor machine I built for less than $1000. The retail Dell and the IBM Thinkpad run great.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
But on the other hand you have cool for trivial or no reason. There's that anti-ergonomic puck-mouse. You have ethernet interfaces that support two-node networks without a hub. (Cool, but is such a narrowly useful feature worth the extra costs?) You have clear plastic cases that look great -- until maybe a week of normal use. You have first-rate monitors non-Mac people would love to buy -- but which don't have standard connectors.
Worst of all is the UI of OS X. Man UI experts -- including some who helped research and define the original Macintosh usability standards, are disturbed by the way OS X seems to emphasize sheer prettiness at the expense of basic usability.
Believe it or not, I'm not totally ignorant of the role of image in modern business and marketing. For my sins, I've been involved in no fewer than three rebranding efforts. Sure image and brand and style are all important. But these are just representations of the product. You have to have a solid product behind the representation, or people will see through your flim-flam. At least that's true for computers -- but computers are a little more complicated than running shoes!
Speaking of ignorance: try putting champagne in a screw-top bottle. Doesn't work.
More Apple FUD from the king of trolls...
1) Because I can do everything on a Mac that I could do on a PC.
2) Because I don't need beige/boxy/boring cases to do my job.
3) Because I want an OS that comes free with the computer, instead of one I can "get for free" by downloading a couple hundred MBytes on my PC that doesn't have an OS on it yet.
4) Sir Clive is cooler than either.
5) I don't need to recompile a kernel to play Civ3.
6) I don't want that damn PC making noises at me.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
I don't know what it is about me you don't like, but whatever it is, I hope you are happy.
ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
Let me save you from reading the article. His whole arguement is cost. Yes, we know they're more expensive. Next...
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
The missing keypress events aren't "not sent." They're merely sent in a nonstandard way.
I mean, all you needed to do was go to the Debian mailing list search like I told you earlier, type in "caps lock" and scroll down to serarch the "powerpc" list. Problem solved.
I should mention that I am using this patch on a recent iBook RIGHT NOW to map my Caps-lock to a Ctrl.
I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!
I've seen lots of Apple commercials, some in fact are pretty good for advertising a computer. The recent iMac commercial where the iMac sticks its "tongue" out at the guy, that is just hilarious. It definitely gets the computer noticed because it is simple. There's no blah blah megahertz or "dude you're getting an iMac". It's like, hey look at this cool sucker. Don't you want one?
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
And if you did, you would rather get one on a Mac platform rather than an NT box. Trust me.
It's what my dad uses. And he *does* do video editing for a living.
ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.