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Amazon & Used Books II: Bezos Strikes Back
theodp writes: "Last week's call for authors to de-link Amazon from their sites has reportedly prompted Jeff Bezos to fire off a letter to all Amazon Marketplace sellers, asking them to help out by sending e-mail on Amazon's behalf in response to the Guild's call for Amazon to stop placing prominent used book ads on each title's main web entry and soliciting new books purchasers to resell their books through Amazon shortly after purchase.
Bezos wants everyone to be 'super-clear' that Amazon.com is supportive of and good for authors, indicating that Amazon's steep discounting of new titles and royalty-less sales of used books are two examples of how Amazon helps the book industry and
authors. Good to see Jeff's found a new cause, since it looks like he's done with up patent reform."
Good god, I wonder if writers buy all their books new?
love is just extroverted narcissism
A call to get rid of libraries as they damage sales? Actions like this are going to make the changes which are going to come for copyright law all the more popular with regular joes.
The more you know, the less you understand.
"Bezos wants everyone to be 'super-clear' that Amazon.com is supportive of and good for authors," - so that's why the Guild of authors wrote:
"Amazon's practice does damage to the publishing industry,.."?
Video Game cheats, hints a
No used books? Just imagine if the car industry was going through the same thing.
Everyone, not just the rednecks, would have used cars sitting on their lawns.
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
There may come a time when book publishing starts to think seriously about used sales. They tried long ago to capture a portion of secondary sales but failed when the Supreme Court said that the purchaser actually got something for the money.
If Amazon gets more successful at this, we may have only a few copies flying around the country as people resell books. This would be great for the postal system but bad for the author.
I'm not in favor of giving the copyright czars any more power, but I do get a bit creeped out by the "buy it used" button on Amazon. If authors make less money, there will be fewer books. I would rather the authors get the money than the post office.
Eventually, Amazon and Half.com are going to really hurt the publishing industry too. We need to find some balanced, middle ground. I wish someone could suggest something.
I also know a few authors and as far as they are generally concerned they prefer to see books in print sell befor used copies, if it's out of print then they're usually more supportive of the used book market, as they'd like people to read and become acquainted with their works. It's a two edged sword, and I'd prefer not to think of anyone as being greedy, in particular authors as many don't make en entire living by it.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Ok, not in the way that you think. However, I have bought MANY MANY books online, as opposed to going to a book store and browsing. I don't have time or patience to drive to a book store and buy a book that way. So, for me at least, they have made it easier to buy a book, therefore I buy more.
Sent from your iPad.
The Author's Guild had their chance when the first-ever used bookstore opened however many decades/centuries/millenia ago. Just because Amazon.com can sell used books on a much larger scale than Mom&Pop Used Book Store doesn't change the fundamental issues about selling used books.
I say to the authors, "Too bad." This whole supposed scandal just reeks of the same Napster fiasco odors, where the proposed solutions just don't fix the underlying issues. Publishers, authors, record labels, musicians, etc., just need to think harder about how to live in this modern world. If they can't deal with it, they should just become Amish or find some 3rd world country that is stuck in 1400AD and move there.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
How?
I mean that authors receive royalties for the books sold after the publisher takes their cut for the advance and publicity for the books.
Now, I suppose you could attempt to claim that you sell new books cheap ... so you "help" the authors by getting to their royalty payments a bit faster (by paying off the publisher faster).
But how does this help the authors for used books? Hmmm? They don't receive ANY royalties from these sales ... nor does the publisher. So what's in it for them if you do this? Now ... if I could find a new book for $30 (which pays royalties, and Bezos loses money) or a used book for $15 (which pays NO royalties, and Bezos gets $$$ for the listing) ... certainly the $15 book would probably get sold. Personally, I don't normally buy used book, except in very good condition, and a title that I want.
However, the only thing this helps is your pocket, profit, and the bottom line. NOT the author or publisher.
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.
Offering customers a lower-priced option causes them to visit our site more frequently,
I don't doubt it, Jeff.
which in turn leads to higher sales of new books
Does it? Or does it simply lead to higher sales of used books?
while encouraging customers to try
authors and genres they may not have otherwise tried.
Absolutely.. too bad used books give no indication to the publishers that these authors and genres deserve a second book contract.
I've got no problem with Amazon selling used books. More power to'em. But when a book published in April 2002 already has a used book link offer up *right beside* the new book.. that strikes me as hurting the author and the publisher.
At least have the courtesy to separate them out for a few months so that publishers can have a more accurate indication of what's selling well and what's not.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
90% of the books I buy used are out of print!
love is just extroverted narcissism
What makes used books apealing to people, is that they cost significantly less than the dead-tree-publisher bloated prices of real books. A smart author, could be sell HTML copies of his book at a vastly reduced cost and make still make a profit.
And nobody would buy a 10 cent 'used' HTML book, when they could securely and convenetly order a 'new' HTML book from the author for 50 cents.
What stands in the way of this utopia:
1) Preception by the masses that inexpensive=cheap crap
2) Many authors are locked into contracts with dead-tree publishers
3) Micro-payments are a pain in the ass.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
...but I agree with Amazon on this one. This is such a throwaway culture, it really pleases me that reselling used books has become a real, mass-market movement. Until recently, you were pretty much screwed if you lived in an area where you didn't have any good used book stores.
...and frankly, if you're just in it for the money, you probably shouldn't be a writer. It's just not a good way to get rich.
reduce, reuse, recycle: even on just an enviromental basis, isn't reselling books the best of ideas? How many trees have been saved because people bought used books?
just a thought...
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
"but I do get a bit creeped out by the "buy it used" button on Amazon"
Why? Do you get creeped out by the used car lot? How about the used software bin?
By your reasoning, nobody should be allowed to sell something used because it hurts the sale of new.
I've got news for you. Its too damned bad. Forcing people to pay for everything they do every time they do with it will be the commercial death of books, music, and entertainment. You're advocating a place where you've got to pay a lot of money to be part of popular culture. Maybe that's for the best (because it will kill off popular culture), but in the long run it will destroy the book and entertainment industry.
It isn't the government's job to "protect" industries (although they seem to love trying). And as to your assertion that less books will be written....GOOD! The world can live without a new stephen king novell.
I think you're screwed up in the head or trolling for the industry.
Books have real lives, they wear out, they get damaged, they get burned by christian fundamentalists. I fail to see the problem with encouraging people to use those books to their fullest.
If I were the Author's Guild, I would shut up ASAP. The only reason I read today is due to Amazon dot bomb. The ease of ordering books online beats finding a bookstore and dealing with the pretentious, egghead twits that work in the store. I never bought a book before Amazon that wasn't required for a school course. Now with Amazon, I pour through at least 12 to 18 books a year. Up from zilch before Amazon came around. I am sure I am not the only one that has gained a love for reading from online bookstores.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
... I've discovered by picking up used copies of their books. I'm more willing to risk $0.50 - $4.00 on a used book by someone I'm not familiar with than $7.00 - $25.00 on a new book by same. And when I discover someone whose work I really like this way, I go out and buy everything I can from them new -- because I know that's the best way to ensure they keep writing.
I'd also talk about the number of bands whose work I discovered via Napster, and whose CD's I then bought new, but that's a dead horse.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
We have found a disturbing trend among car owners, when they no longer want a car they are not just storing it on a shelf to collect dust.
Used car dealers are actively working to divert customers shopping for new cars into their used car lots by prominently placing used car ads on websites and newspapers.
This is affecting the quality and diversity of new cars available to car dealers.
We believe it is in our members' best interests to de-link their websites from dealers who sell used cars. There's no good reason for car makers to be complicit in undermining their own sales. It just takes a minute, and it's the right thing to do.
I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people. - Jack Handey
If Amazon gets more successful at this, we may have only a few copies flying around the country as people resell books. This would be great for the postal system but bad for the author.
If this happens, it will only be because there are no books being written that are worth keeping or re-reading. If that is what the industry is churning out, maybe it deserves a kick in the shins.
Takahashi Rumiko made beats! DON, taku, DON, taku. . .
I disagree. I think this will, in fact, help the industry.
First, let's clear something up. If someone is buying a book used (or even selling a book used), then the author already got money for the book sale. Beyond that, they don't deserve anything.
Second, if someone is buying a book used (or, again, selling), that means someone else bought the book and for some reason found it not to be worth keeping. They then make this book available to others at a cheaper price, who in turn may or may not feel that it is worth it, until:
- Someone finds the book worth keeping, and keeps it.
- It sits on the shelf of a used book section, and no one ever buys it.
In any case, each time the book is bought used, it devalues the overall worth of the book to the author. This is a good thing. It means that if they wrote a crap book, then the market compensates then at the rate for crap books.This means that yes, we may see less books. Authors who write books may see less money. The qualifier is that these authors are the ones who are writing crap books, and the should be making less money.
Books have been passed on and sold used for centuries. I don't think we have any fewer books today because of it.
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
inefficiencies exist. one such inefficiency is related to locating the book that you want, used, at a price you're willing to pay. the new-book market has been determining its pricing and its revenue model on the basis of the fact and magnitude of this inefficiency for, oh, let's call it *EVER*.
amazon is presenting The World with one way to eliminate (or at least greatly reduce) this inefficiency, by removing the fee-for-convience that is built into new books, rendering them no easier to get one's hands on than used books.
is this going to hurt new books' sales? probably. i don't see why it wouldn't. do we, as people who have been pissed at record comapnies for the last five years, have any tolerance left for individuals who choose to whine when their business model is exposed as outmoded by advances in technology? no. because when one's business model is threatened by changes in the environment, one can either try to turn back time, or one can embrace this change, and figure out how to best serve their customers given the new set of conditions. the former approach is pathetic and doomed, the latter, in the end, both more viable and admirable.
whether amazon, on the whole, is good or bad for authors is academic here -- although as someone mentioned above, the general increase in availability for both used *and* new books certainly has me buying more. all we need to keep in mind here is how ridiculous the RIAA looks going to court instead of updating its business model, calling on the public to pity them when a new technology makes it clear that they've been riding on an inefficiency for quite a long time.
ladies and gentlemen of the publishing industry, the ride is over, please exit to your left.
god is just pretend.
If I go to a book signing an author I do not expect the author to tell me to check the book out of the library. I fully expect them to try to get me to buy a book from the book store they are signing in front of. I don't feel they are against libraries or used books for doing this.
This doesn't make them "anti-library" any more than the Toyota dealer not sending customers to Tony's Used Toyota Dealer makes them anti-car-rental-agencies or anti-used-cars. It's common business practice not to recommend customers shop somewhere else!
What the guild is saying is that Amazon by pushing used book sales on the same page as the new book sales for recently released books damages an authors sales by pushing customers to used books. Authors should consider linking to Barnes and Noble or some such site instead of referring potential readers to Amazon.
There is no slippery slope here, move along.
I think the guild is well within their rights to try to maximize their sales by referring potential customers to new book sellers (where they make money) rather than to used book sellers (where they don't). I think Amazon is well within their rights to push their used book sales.
Frankly this whole thread is pretty stupid.
Thing is, you really don't hear these complaints from musicians any more. Why? Because: (1) someone eventually noticed that the big music boom of the '90s neatly coincided with the big boom in used CDs; sales weren't being cannibalized, or at least not noticably; (2) digital music formats continue to move the battlefield from issues of resale to those of duplication; Garth's original worries are no longer as pressing.
I can see the whole used books thing following a similar path over the next couple of decades. I wholeheartedly believe that used books help develop audiences for authors -- hook them on older books at an afforable pricepoint and they'll be more willing to buy the newest must-have title by that author at full price. Eventually, the powers that be will realize this and ease off the "anti-used" pressure somewhat. Moreover, once a company successfully gets viable ePaper out on the market, we'll see a shift of the debate from resale to duplicaiton, just like with CDs.
So in the meantime -- sit back, enjoy the debate, and know that this too shall pass.
WOW, look how much money I can save! Thanks to the authors guild for bringing this excellent service to my attention!
mp3's are only for those with bad memories
Go to www.addall.com to do a mass search online for the cheapest book (this includes half.com, B&N, Borders, etc.)
Go to www.addall.com/used in order to find even better deals. This searches mom and pop sites and helps you find things that are out of print.
I have bought so many books this way. Almost all of the prices BEAT any used price that you'll get at Amazon, Half.com, etc.
There's plenty of proof that used books help the publishing industry. The idea that there should be no aftermarket for books is far more ludicrious.
In truth, the ones that are most hurt by used books are authors who either have a niche market or are so small-potatoes they only get one press run. But how much they get hurt is open to discussion; if people find a used book and find they like it, they're far more likely to buy the next one by that author new. If they don't, they recycle the book back into the used market. An author can build a pretty good following through the used market, sometimes enough to get larger print runs of new books and reprints of older books.
What the publishing industry is doing harkens back to the Garth Brooks' boycott of used record stores. To try to curtain the aftermarket on anything is just plain silly. If this logic were to pervade, one's choices would be to either hang onto a book or bin it, and throwing out all those trees is very ecologically unsound. Imagine 10 or 11 Fresh Kills full of the contents of Powell's.
If these publishers were smart, they'd come up with a simple and easy to work with system that would allow for one person to buy personal-use rights to a book and compensate both the publisher and the author, then allow for that person to transfer those rights to another person temporarily or permanently. Or, maybe they can have a group of people pool their money and buy these same rights, then house these books in a centrally located public building with a method of allowing these people who have paid to borrow these books once or multiple times. I think these are great ideas, and I'm sure the publishers will get right on it....
get exclusive contracts from publishers to sell product.
Never happened.
Takahashi Rumiko made beats! DON, taku, DON, taku. . .
Well, retroactively extending copyright to then would give Saints Luke and Peter much more incentive to contribute to the useful arts surely?
By selling used books, Amazon.com is also helping to save the environment. If you are not going to use a book any more, pass it on (or sell in this case) to the next person. Don't go kill a tree just to make a brand new copy. The content isn't different.
These authors are making themselves look like real jerks in the public light. They will only get the bad PR, and Amazon will get the good.
The book industry seems to be doing its own thing here: jacking up prices madly. So it is very appropriate to resell books used, however one wants.
sulli
RTFJ.
I honestly don't see what the guild is kvetching about.
I'm an author. I have a book on Amazon, and although the used price on my book is still fairly close to the new price, there's a chance that used sales will start to cut into new sales at some point.
So, does Amazon have a right to sell used copies of a book, or not? If not, then they are breaking the law, and should be sued. If so, then the Author's Guild is interfering with legitimate business, and is exposing itself as a bunch of whiny brats.
Books are SOLD, *NOT LICENSED*. If you buy a book, YOU OWN IT. There is no contractual relationship; it is your book. You can sell it, rent it, burn it, or make paper airplanes out of it. The only things you can't do are copy it or claim its contents as your own, due to copyright law (which I mostly agree with, except for the DMCA). If the Author's Guild wants to claim that this is not true, then they have an uphill battle against hundreds of years of tradition. But frankly, I think they're just bitching, and should be ignored.
-John
...most new car dealers actually make more money from used car sales than new.
What about this well known book?
...(insert diatribe about scientific discovery and education here)...
Any author can stay in at the Holiday Inn and get a *gasp* free complimentary copy of an equivelent from the Gideons.
This is info hoarding at its worst, IMHO.
It's enough to make the Baby Jes...ummm, nevermind.
Soko
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
There are so many reasons that disallowing the sale of used books is silly that I can't even begin to list them all.. so I'll just elaborate on my own personal experiences.
I read a lot. And do I ever mean a LOT. I average two to three books a week, I'm a card carrying discount member of four bookstores, and I'm in two book of the month clubs. I buy a lot of new books.
I also buy a lot of used books. Why? Because while I make a good salary, I'm far from rich. A new book in paperback costs in the range of 9 - 12 dollars canadian (first one that makes a 'what is that, 10 cents US joke?' gets a huge smack). For hardcovers, my preferred format, you're looking at 25 - 40 CDN. My book habit ends up costing me more than most addicts' crack habits.
So where do i turn? Used books. Roughly 25% of my books are used. When I want to try a new series, or the book kinda looks ok but i'm not sure, or i'm looking for something that's out of print, I'm going to head to the used book store.
Does this mean I buy fewer new books? nope. In fact, the opposite is often true. If I like a new author (new to me anyway), i'll often go and buy an entire series of their books, all shiny new, dropping as much as 1 - 200 CDN in a single trip, and if i don't like the book, then most likely it was under $5 so no harm no foul.
It's a lot of money, but for a book junkie/collecter, there's nothing quite so satisfying as an uncreased, undamaged book sitting on the shelf that you know will be there for years. As great as getting a book at a discount is, they're rarely in pristine condition. They're usually dog-eared and slightly rumpled with creases in the spine. For display-phobes like me, I want that clean, crisp cover with the perfectly preserved dust jacket. A silly obsession i know, but hey... how many stero fanatics out there spend thousands on getting 'just the right sound'?
I also lend/borrow/trade books with friends. Better place me on the top ten wanted list.
Hell, even the RIAA doesn't try to regulate the sale of used CDs and casettes.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo - H. G. Wells
The problem is the fact that the purveyors of intellectual property want to get paid for our experiences, and are trying to stuff what should be a service model (the time/energy it takes to write a book/play a song/etc) into a unit-sales model (x bucks per consumer). And sadly, they, via the RIAA and the MPAA, have enough political clout to keep trying to stuff that broken model into our legislative craw. IMO, we have to communicate to our lawmakers, not merely the practical problems involved, but the very core philosophical fallacy in which the problems are based.
Am I breaking the law because I go to Cracker Barrel and take advantage of their used audio book program?
For those of you who don't know, CB allows you to purchase a book at any their Old Country Store/Restaurants and then return that book at any CB OCS for a full refund minus a $3 restocking fee. This works out great for me because I LOVE to audio books. My commute to work helps me complete about 3 novels a week. CB's program saves me about $100/wk over the cost of new books. That's a moot point however because I wasn't buying that many books because I couldn't afford it and didn't have the time to go by the library. In addition, I work out of the state where I reside so getting to a library to which I have a card isn't easy. Is CB gonna be sued next? How about the local library?
When will the madness end?
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
These publishes have to realize one thing: Something is only worth as much as someone else will pay for it!
Don't whine, COMPETE! Offer us something unique with a new book that doesn't come with a used one. Think outside the box. Offer us a chance to meet the author, updates, discounts on new versions, sofware, login to web site, the chance to get connected to a community of others who bought the book, etc.
This is just the marketplace taking care of certain inefficiencies. This is a GOOD thing! You can't expect people to not take advantage of this.
This is not necessarily true. Publishers have other options: PDF books, digital ways to cut costs, independent publishers, etc. in order to encourage people to buy a new version.
This is a moral appeal? Don't confuse a practical $$$ decision with a moral one. "Right" and "wrong" arguments have no place in an appeal like this.
Sure...go ahead and do that. I'll still shop at www.addall.com and www.addall.com/used and www.abebooks.com to get better prices on USED books than new ones.
If you want me to do otherwise, then GIVE ME SOME SORT OF VALUE ADD FOR BUYING A NEW BOOK!
I've been waiting for the last installment Brian Herberts Prequel Trilogy to Dune. House Corrino. But I was clear I wasn't going to cough up the $25.00 for the hardcover given the quality of the first 2. They were entertaining but not something i'd read twice. But I've been waiting for the paperback version forever. So once this story came out, I clicked on over to Amazon and got the hardcover used for $6.00, the price of the paperback. So i got to spend the amount I wanted to (demand) for the not new version (supply). Nevermind the painless recycling.
Now Brian Herbert didn't see a dime, but neither did Corning when i bought those used dishes from the salvation army. And I'm ok with that.
Perhaps the quality of writing will go up, if there is more access to used books. Or perhaps they need to provide some other incentive to justify me spending $25.00
But the authors guild would have me believe that if there was a manual on how to make dishes, I shouldn't be able to buy that used. bah!
I was happy to find my Photoshop book [associate link] available used through Amazon. $45 new is too much for students and the book is now 3 versions out of date anyway. But at reasonable used prices people still buy and like it and the fact that its still talked about puts me in a better position to negotiate the next edition.
The used price of a new (as in not-yet-outdated) tech book is a useful indicator of much people value it. Horrah for people's ability to dump crappy books. It will encourage better writing.
When you buy a new car, you know that it will have a resale value when you are done with it. You are more likely to buy a car with a good resale value. (This is often given as a reason to buy a Honda, for example.)
If I know that I can resell my newly purchased book when I am done, then that new book is cheaper for me to buy. Once folks get used to it, this may help to increase new book sales.
Also, publishers may start charging more for new books, to help reflect their increased resale value.
It is actually pretty hard to predict how this all turns out in the long run.
Amazon has been selling used books for some time now. Where are the statistics regarding nationwide new and used book sales, relative to Amazon's new and used book sales? Are we really talking about Amazon's used book sales making up a significant fraction of total nationwide book sales each year? If not, why is there such a fuss?
Bob
Science, like Nature, must also be tamed, with a view turned towards its preservation.
You've mixed up the parts in the analogy...
Manufacturers make cars. Dealers sell them.
Publishers and authors make books. Bookstores sell them.
The manufacturers/publishers are complaining about the dealers/used book shops
The current situation on Amazon is that for even a recent Book X's individual page, there is likely to be a very high-profile link saying "Buy this Book X used for a lower price!". This is...
...VERY prominently placed
...not delayed (e.g. if somebody buys the book the day it comes out, decides that it's not worth finishing within an hour, and offers it for sale on Amazon, it'll show up quite soon)
...competing with the new book (the prices are usually lower)
So the Author's Guild asked that its members remove their affiliate links to Amazon. It did NOT call for the banning of used book sales; instead, I got the impression that they would be mollified if Amazon delayed the 'used book' links for some months, or if the links were less obvious...
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Not necessarily. What if the used book is in horrible condition? It's really hard to determine that through a link, and lots of avid readers (like myself) won't buy used books whose condition is questionable. I don't want a book with a broken spine, dog-eared pages, writing, etc. Also, what if the used books is out of stock? Used, new releases are hard to find, especially if the book is good or in demand. Amazon probably sells many new books when customers find the used copies aren't in stock.
All I suggested was maybe Amazon could have the decency to say "Hey.. this book is new.. let's give the publisher/author a chance to make some decent sales numbers out of it before we start trying to pull in the used book trade."
Why? You can go to your local used bookstore and they'll might have the latest and greatest books too, and they don't feel a need to hold the books behind the counter until some period of time passes. They put them out as they get them, and customers buy them when they see the titles they want at a price they like. Why should the online bookstores be at a disadvantage?
My guess is this is only the first step to start an unsuccessful fight against the used book market. Authors and publishers should be excited that used books are sold. How many people buy a $25 book from an author that they haven't even heard of? Not many. And what if you want a book that is out of print, still in demand, but the publisher doesn't want to print anymore? (i.e. "The Silicon Man" by Charles Platt). Used books to the rescue. I'll bet 75% of my book collection was inspired or influenced from used purchases.
There are two components to a book's price: the intellectual property and the physical object. If you reduce the price of the physical object by sharing it, you liberate more money to pay for the intellectual property.
When the contents of a book are shared, by reselling used books, the net average price for each user is reduced. When price goes down, demand goes up. Thus there is more demand for the contents of books.
However, note that the price for the book contents is what went down, so demand for the contents is what increases. Fewer actual physical books are needed, because each book transports the contents to multiple users. So demand for books goes down, and the price goes up.
Thus, in the end, an actual book will cost more, but fewer will be sold. The income for publishers will decrease. But the intellectual property value has increased, and market forces should result in authors getting more money.
It is really a simple effect: When you make a process more efficient, both the supplier of the actual value and the consumer benefit, because they no longer have to pay for the inefficiency. It is only the supplier of the previously needed inefficiency that suffers.
Everyone seems to think the authors are trying to outlaw used books. They are doing no such thing. They don't like the fact that Amazon is selling used books almost immediately when the new ones go on sale (and I can understand their frustration with this). The Guild's response is to encourage it's members not to link to Amazon, but rather one of the other online bookseller that does no do this. It makes perfect sense for them to do this. Why send people to site where they may end up buying a copy of your book used (and you will get no money from it) when you can send them to another online bookseller where this isn't likely to happen? They don't like how Amazon is doing business, so they are trying to send their business elsewhere. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
"Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
A new industry group ("Manufacturers Of All New Equipment & Retailers", or MOANER) announced today that they are urging newspapers across the nation to stop advertising yard sales, garage sales, and community group rummage sales. An unsigned letter from the organization, a coalition including Walmart, the RIAA, the Authors' Guild, and Panasonic, states "We believe that the practice of selling stuff more than once must be stopped. We build obsolenscence into our products, we market new styles each season, yet somehow these pirates keep selling clothes, books, appliances, and compact discs after they had already been sold at retail. We believe these practices hurt retailers and manufacturers, cost badly needed jobs, and leave perfectly good landfills empty."
...Nothing interesting here. Just move along...
"There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute or common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back."
Robert Heinlein's Life-Line
nuclear iraq bioweapon encryption cocaine korea terrorist
I've bought plenty of stuff from Amazon (realizing the reality that boycotts are not an effective means of change).
In many cases they've had used copies of the same book I was buying - but I still bought new. If the difference is not much (escpially on paperback) it's nice to have a fresh copy of the book where the only wrinkles you have are the ones you put there. And that used copy up on Amazon would have been in a used bookstore anyway, so I don't see it hurting sales.
There is another aspect you discount, that Amazon knows if you bought the book and that factors in to reccomendations and ratings. So even if a bunch of people are buying the book used from Amazon that might lead more people who didn't know about the book to buy it new as a result of link from some other book. People greatly discount this kind of networking effect that can have a lot of promotional impact.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
First, their assertion that used books hurt the book industry and
authors is not correct. We've found that our used books business
does not take business away from the sale of new books. In fact,
the opposite has happened. Offering customers a lower-priced option
causes them to visit our site more frequently, which in turn leads
to higher sales of new books while encouraging customers to try
authors and genres they may not have otherwise tried. In addition,
when a customer sells used books, it gives them a budget to buy more
new books.
(Emphasis Mine)
Actually, it sounds like selling used books is good for Amazon.com, not the lit industry. Look, Amazon uses very predatory tactics to get their remainders, which they then sell as "used". These books never made their authors any money via royalties because they were sold as remainders and the publishers took a loss.
No one is arguing against anyone's right to sell used books. It's about treating your business partners nicely. If you're an author with a personal website, or a publisher, you'll want to link to an e-commerce site that will get someone to by your book new and make you a buck. That's only natural.
Actually, this is more of a pissing match between the publishing industry (corpulent, unimagninative and greedy) and amazon (just greedy). Who do you think funds the authors guild? Authors. Please... what authors do you know (megastars aside) who can support a "guild". The author's guild is funded by publishers.
In a perfect world, authors (and other content creators) wouldn't need greedy-stupid publishers and distributors to get their work out there. That's the promise of xlibris, but it's yet to really make an impact, mostly because the people who publish via xlibris couldn't get published anywhere else.
How I long for a day when artists and scientists don't need corporate patrons.
Howard Dean for president
Here's my letter to the Authors Guild:
Dear Mr. Aiken,
I'm writing today to voice my support for Amazon's innovative used-book program. I'm a professional science fiction writer and journalist, the recipient of the Campbell Award for Best New Science Fiction Writer at the 2000 Hugo Awards, and the author of two novels forthcoming from Tor Books and a short-story collection forthcoming from Four Walls Eight Windows. I also spent my adolescence working in book stores and libraries.
I'm quite distressed at the Authors Guild's reactionary position on Amazon's used-book service. As a new author whose books will be published as $25+ hardcovers, my principal challenge will be to find a way to introduce my work to new readers. The intershelving of used and new books has been shown to be an effective means of driving sales of new authors -- I discovered this myself when I was a bookseller, and it's an experience that has been replicated in many bookstores, from corner operations like my local genre bookstore, Borderlands Books, all the way up to Powell's Books, the largest bookstore in the world.
What's more, the Amazon used-books service does not push the bounds of established copyright law or practice *at all*. The right of a consumer to resell the property s/he's lawfully acquired (called the Doctrine of First Sale) is the reason that we are able to have used bookstores at all. Also, yard-sales, charitable donations, library discard sales, collectibles sales, etc and so forth.
Indeed, one of the most revolting characteristics of many e-book technologies is that they abridge this right -- think of all the tens of millions of books donated to schools and libraries, sent to prisons and literacy programs, passed from friend to friend or within a family. The Doctrine of First Sale makes all of this possible.
Amazon's used-book service only reduces the friction involved in a used-book sale. When I worked at Bakka, a science fiction bookstore with new and used stock, young sf fans with tight budgets would often request popular titles that were available new on the shelf as used copies on their wish-lists. These are precisely the readers whose disappearance that we science fiction writers lament at every sf con as we look around at our greying ranks and wonder whether the genre is disappearing. Amazon's service makes this kind of thing easier and better for those readers -- why would we, as authors, wish to stop Amazon from extending the service?
Arguably, this is what the Internet is *for* -- connecting people at low cost, finding new market niches and exploiting them, reducing friction.
Copyright is a bargain between the public domain and creators -- we are able to create well and profit by our creations because we are able to benefit from the commons created by the works of those who came before us, which have entered the public domain. The bargain allows us to be effective creators, and it allows others to be innovative consumers.
Here Amazon and its customers (who are providing every one of those used books!) are building an innovative secondary market that will improve the overall economy. The bargain allows our *creative* expression, it allows their *innovative* expression.
To quote one of my colleagues:
> Companies should be lauded for extracting additional value from the formerly
> fallow copyright resources that belong to the public (like first sale and
> fair use).
In short, keep your disapprobation to yourself -- I want to work *with* my readers, not *against* them.
Thank you,
Cory Doctorow,
Former Canadian Regional Director,
Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America
I just bought a Weber grill on Amazon. I noticed that I could have also bought the grill used via the button that Amazon provides right next to the button to buy it from Amazon .
I wonder if the Grillmakers Guild is going to go after Amazon for allowing rascals such as myself to buy used grills on Amazon instead of purchasing them new.
For what it is worth, I bought the new grill.
mbbac
That is very true - for a while I was selling used books on eBay, and when I was active I found myself buying a lot more books (used and new) as I knew it would be easy to be rid of them even if I didn't like them.
If you make it easy for people to sell used, and as you said they know how much they can get for the book later, then they might think of it as only spending $3 for a book instead of $7. Perhaps it would even lead to people treating books a little better overall!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If you believe the Pew Internet & American Life Project reports, roughly 40-58M people in the United States have ever purchased something online.
As for Amazon, hrm. In the quarter ending Dec. 31, 2001, they had 1.1B in revenue (totall, not just books). Not that long ago, the UK site alone claimed 5M customers -- apparently one-sixth of all UK e-commerce in 2/02. From a 2001 Form 10-K, filed 24-Jan-02, the "U.S. Books, Music and DVD/video segment" had net sales of $1.69B in 2001.
Hm. I can't find a breakdown that only includes books sold over Amazon.com (those figures include income from partnerships, such as running www.borders.com, in addition to music and video), but it's probably safe to say that it's probably quite huge. They're big enough that if there ARE a decent number of used books(*) for sale on AMZN, it might have a substantial impact.
(*) But there might not be. These used books are mostly person-to-person sales, not Amazon-to-person sales, and thus will probably be sold in far lower quantities than what Amazon normally sells(**). I didn't see a revenue breakdown for new/used, either.
(**) Except for drivel that customers decide to immediately resell, in droves, of course. But then, it's probably easier to sell it to a colleague or nearby bookstore, or donate to a local library, unless it's something obscure.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Where do you live that your library gets new books that quickly?
Centerville, OH.
"Make it ten--I am only a poor corrupt official."
--Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains), Casablanca
How about increased mindshare? By having their work read by more people, an author increases their fanbase and their potential market for sales of future writings.
For example, I remember back when I was in high school, a friend recommended Riverworld by Philip Jose Farmer. I found a copy at a used bookstore. I enjoyed it and ended up reading the entire series when later books were published. Most of the books were bought new since I didn't want to wait until a used copy might become available. And since I enjoyed Farmer's writing I ended up buying a lot more of his other books, most of them new.
Did my buying used books hurt Farmer's income? No. If I had not been able to buy that first book for cheap, I probably wouldn't have risked so much of my limited teenage income to speculate on a new (to me) author. As a result of that used book sale, Mr. Farmer gained a new fan and sold more books.
Trickster Coyote
Ideology is for ideots.
Yes, point taken. The Author's Guild does have every right to call for a boycott against Amazon. And we have every right to call them whiny brats for doing so. :)
I was simply responding to the undertone that implied Amazon was doing something wrong by offering used copies for sale, when in fact it seems to me that they're carrying on perfectly legal and ethical business.
-John
This is an exact duplicate of what is going on in the music industry. If you are an artist worried about making money maybe you should get a job.
Nobody ever told me i had the right to make money doing what i like. ive got the right to do what i like if it is within the law and ive got a right to make money.
Thanks to the above artist/writer who makes it clear that doing both independently is possible!
Now back to your regularly scheduled rant already in progress...
disclaimer
boring personal anticdote about book purchases
generalize above through transparent argument proving that desired behavior (which just happens to support my ethics) helps book industry
sideways stealth attack against arbitrary organization, either because they don't agree with me, or because they do for the wrong reasons
dumb sig
Maybe the state's highest function is to grind out insoluble problems. (Zelazny, Hall of Mirrors)
Most of my early books are out of print, and I always have people e-mailing me asking for copies. I don't have any to sell, but I can direct them to a used bookstore. I already received my pittance (a couple bucks on a $40 retail computer book) for the book, so why should I insist on getting paid again?
If someone doesn't need one of my books any longer, I encourage them to sell it through a used store. I want some of my old books to be available to new readers!
On the other hand, there are a couple books I wrote (at publisher's insistence) that I wouldn't mind seeing vanish from the planet! ;)
All about me
The Writers Guild has determined that governmental organizations are buying limited quantities of original copyrighted works and lending them to the public without compensating writers for each viewing or "reading".
Its called a library. They're worried about used book sales?
Sheesh.
Here's a working link, http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/greek-2/msg 00137.html.
I'm afraid it might be a little late for this comment, or someone might have said something along these lines already, but here it goes:
Wouldn't you buy a book easier if you knew it would also be easier to sell it, in case you do not want to keep it? So, wouldn't making reselling easier would also have a positive effect on book sales. Maybe, this sounds farfetched, but imagine you want to buy a book which is somewhat expensive. You check your library and see a couple of books you might live without, you sell them and get the book you want. I wouldn't sell my books for dining outside, but I would feel OK if I am selling them to buy new books.
ato
Publishing houses are to writing as the MPAA's charter members are to movie making.
Publishers screw over just as many people as the MPAA, but since their media isn't as wide-spread in piracy, and they don't really make that much money off books and other publications, you don't really hear that much from them.
But I've seen some contracts where the author would give up all rights to the book, which some he should reserve, for the life of the copyright itself, whether or not the publisher decided to publish the book. It's insane contracts like that which are becoming more frequent (mostly by lesser known houses, but hey, someday Tor or Random House may have them), which make publishers just as untrustworthy as media conglomerates these days.
Listen to what authors have to say about their books, just as you would listen to directors and producers have to say about their movies. Go to the source, not the people trying to amass as much money off others' work as possible.
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
What the authors want is to sell TWO copies (or more) of the book instead of one, when two people could derive all the use out of one copy. They are advocating a wasteful approach simply because it profits them and benefits no one else.
Robotiq.com is heavily tested on animals
Publishers sometimes pay an up front payment, and that's all the author receives for the sales of the book. If it sells 7,000 or 7,000,000, the author earns the same. These are reserved more for larger talents, of course, like Stephen King and John Grisham.
Imagine, then, if you propose that authors should receive additional money from sales of books that are used, when they normally would not receive money from sales of new books. Publishers are trying to recuperate their payments by pushing sales of the book.
Of course, I've never really liked that business strategy, but I doubt many publishers would rid themselves of it, banking on the hopes that they'd come out ahead.
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
One correction to the blurb I'd like to make: the used-book sales aren't royaltyless. No royalty is paid to the author on this sale because the author has already received the royalty on that copy of the book the first time it was sold (as a new book). The Guild is complaining not that the author isn't being paid, but that they aren't being paid multiple times for a single copy sold.
but for every used book sold, it has to have been bought once new. If someone is going to buy a cheaper used book, what does it matter if they buy it one month, or ten months, or a decade, after the book is released?
The timetable matters because publishers generally decide whether to give an author a second book deal based on the sales numbers they get from the first one.
I'm like you. I prefer new. I'm worried about those who when they get on the Amazon site see that if they click one link they get it for some price, but if they click the link just below it, they get it for 10-50% cheaper. I tend to feel that a lot of people who aren't as into books as you and I will see that extra savings and think "Why not.. it's not even been out a month, how much damage could have been done to it?"
Now this isn't going to affect established authors one iota. The publishers know they can sell those authors and so have a lot more leeway in what they consider a "failed" book. But for new or niche authors then this could wind up being the difference between them getting a second book or not.
A lot of people say "Well, I buy the first book used, because I don't want to risk the money, but if I like it, I buy the rest new." Which is great! The problem is when you buy that first one used, decide you like it, but then never see another book from that author again because their sales weren't high enough for the publishers.
I'm not saying don't buy used. Bigger audience and all, more exposure. Good things. But buying used when the book is still on the "New Book Rack" at wherever (be it Amazon or the local store) can wind up hurting the authors.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
A novel purchased cheaply at a used book store just cultivates another fan and reader for that author.
His letter to the Authors' Guild is at http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/1291
So when you're done with a book, why not recycle it ?
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
I think my responsibility to ensure an author's income is the same as the author's responsibility to do the same for me. Zero. If I can't afford to buy his book, then he doesn't get my cash. If he can't afford to make a living on selling copies, then I don't get his works. Simple stuff.
Why do we always have to justify or excuse exercising our first sale rights on the grounds that this will be good for the industry?
According to this logic, if someone can show publishers are seeing declining revenues, well then kiss your first sale rights goodbye. And say hello to the big brother world of realtime, privacy-invasive, content controls on every damn thing you buy.
Finally, and to balance the debate a bit, we need to reestablish the legitimacy of sharing, borrowing, loaning, and conserving the things we use. Share a lawnmower with the neighbors. Carpool. Loan out the books you aren't reading, make mix compilation CD's of your favorite music and give them to your friends, invite your neighbors over for dinner. Buy a newspaper and then pass it on to your coworkers when you are done with it. Loan a friend some of your DVD's or VHS tapes. Trade videogames. Borrow that cool salad bowl the old lady upstairs uses. Loan out your fishing poles. Be part of a community.
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.