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eWeek: Apache 2.0 Trumps IIS

AK47 writes "eWeek has a very positive review of Apache 2.0, entitled "Apache 2.0 Beats IIS at Its Own Game." They recommend the native Apache version on Windows over IIS for production use, citing superior security with no loss in performance."

175 of 480 comments (clear)

  1. How well can it run ASP? by autopr0n · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And if it can run ASP, can it run it 'all the way' -- ie could you take any ASP page and run it from apache?

    If it can handle ASP, there could be a lot of changeover. If not, then most 'hard core' M$ shops won't change.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
    1. Re:How well can it run ASP? by mdemeny · · Score: 5, Interesting
      You can get a lot to run on Apache using Sun Chili!Soft ASP.

      We were able to port all of our web-based reporting code with only 1 line change (including COM objects). However if your ASP is truly hard-core then it might be more difficult.

    2. Re:How well can it run ASP? by sh0rtie · · Score: 2, Interesting



      who needs Windows at all with this

      http://www.halcyonsoft.com/

      combined with

      .NET,.ASP both on Linux and having used it, it actually doesnt suck as much as chillisofts implementation

    3. Re:How well can it run ASP? by mikerackhabit · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, you could ask the folks at Apache::ASP.

      From their website:

      Apache::ASP provides an Active Server Pages port to the Apache Web Server with Perl scripting only, and enables developing of dynamic web applications with session management and embedded perl code. There are also many powerful extensions, including XML taglibs, XSLT rendering, and new events not originally part of the ASP API!

      Sounds pretty good to me. Of course, I don't use much ASP so I don't really know what most 'hard core' m$ shops would need support for to be convinced to switch.

    4. Re:How well can it run ASP? by destiney · · Score: 2


      If it can handle ASP, there could be a lot of changeover. If not, then most 'hard core' M$ shops won't change.

      Then let the bastards be hacked... not my problem..

      Who farted anyway?

    5. Re:How well can it run ASP? by jchristopher · · Score: 2
      Jeez, from reading the posts on Slashdot, you'd think the main reason to learn PHP would be so you can mock 'simpler' languages. Look how cool I am, I know Perl DOOD! Well, some of us enjoy writing in a straightforward, yet powerful language that allows us to author web applications much faster than other languages.

      What's not to like about ColdFusion? It even runs on your precious Linux, Solaris, NT, and several Unices. Your developers can code once and it will run on any platform.

      Would you run Amazon.com on ColdFusion? Probably not. But 99% of people aren't building Amazon.com, are they?

      I'd encourage you to:

      1. Grow up;

      2. Take a look at the evaluation version of ColdFusion server, show it to your HTML people and watch them smile as they realize that there IS a lanaguage you don't have to be a computer science major to understand. Yes, it's $1,200. That's 8-10 hours of billable time for a consulting firm. You'll save that much time on the FIRST job you do.

    6. Re:How well can it run ASP? by revscat · · Score: 2

      ColdFusion is certainly functional, but not very robust. Can it do most of the basic things that other server-side languages do? Sure. But with the advent of MVC models such as Struts this need is diminished. Or if Struts is too much, then you can build your own custom tags, or use existing JSP custom tag libraries. This allows for your non-CS HTML people to do things such as:

      <table>
      <sql:statement id="stmt1" conn="conn1">
      <sql:query>
      select id, name, description from test_books
      order by 1
      </sql:query>
      <%-- loop through the rows of your query --%>
      <sql:resultSet id="rset2">
      <tr>
      <td><sql:getColumn position="1"/></td>
      <td><sql:getColumn position="2"/></td>
      <td><sql:getColumn position="3"/>
      <sql:wasNull>[no description]</sql:wasNull></td>
      </tr>
      </sql:resultSet>
      </sql:statement>
      </table>

      The last project I worked on used this, and the designers (HTML people, with some basic JavaScript experience) were able to pick up on it after a single half-day meeting. Very simple, very straightforward, very robust, and you don't have to drop several thousand bucks into a technology that even Macromedia is showing signs of moving away from.

    7. Re:How well can it run ASP? by tshak · · Score: 3, Insightful

      However if your ASP is truly hard-core then it might be more difficult.

      I'm not quite sure what this means, but essentially, if your app uses ASP that does more then the simple "Connect to ADO, grab data, and loop over it", then ChiliSoft is not a good solution for serious apps.

      --

      There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
    8. Re:How well can it run ASP? by tshak · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A) Halcyon's iNET does not (as of yet) run ASP.NET (which is much more important then ASP).

      B) They require a seperate runtime that sits ON TOP of your Java Application Server. Double licenses per box (unless you use an Open Source JAS, however, I have yet to find an "enterprise quality" one).

      However, it is pretty cool what they've done with the .NET stuff. Talk about a huge undertaking.

      --

      There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
    9. Re:How well can it run ASP? by FattMattP · · Score: 5, Informative
      Apache::ASP provides an Active Server Pages port to the Apache Web Server with Perl scripting only
      Then it's not very useful. Apache::ASP only implements the ASP framework. The majority of ASP scripts written are in VBScript. If Apache::ASP only supports Perl then you're going to have to port all of your legacy VBScript based ASP pages to Perl. You might as well rewrite them in PHP or C at that point.

      When people ask if it supports ASP, they usually mean, does it execute ASP pages that contain code in VBScript or Microsoft's JScript.

      --
      Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
    10. Re:How well can it run ASP? by Bobzibub · · Score: 2

      For a quick 'n dirty port to try out Apache, try ASP2PHP. YMMV.

      http://asp2php.naken.cc/
      http://asp2php.naken.c c/faq.php

      Cheers,
      -b

    11. Re:How well can it run ASP? by revscat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Put it this way, if they were using ColdFusion, your HTML guys could have written it themselves, rather than relying on an admin (you) to provide them with a custom tag!

      And who provides them with the ColdFusion tags? An administrator! Look you big dork, if you think that runninng a freaking web site without a web administrator is a desirable thing then you have much bigger problems to worry about. Somebody is going to have to install the software. Jesus!

      Look man, I'm being serious: ColdFusion is dying. If you are basing your career upon it I would seriously advise you to at least look into learning other technologies. It's proprietary, doesn't scale well, and is only supported by a single vendor. And Macromedia's energies seem to be increasing steadily over to JRun. I have been involved with over a dozen web applications from design to launch utilizing several different technologies, of which ColdFusion was a part. Very few people in the industry like ColdFusion or even take it seriously, and they have good reasons for that. Trust me.

    12. Re:How well can it run ASP? by crisco · · Score: 3, Informative
      When people ask if it supports ASP, they usually mean, does it execute ASP pages that contain code in VBScript or Microsoft's JScript.
      Don't you go to COM controls when you hit the bounds of ASP performance or when you need a feature and don't have the time to write it in VBScript and nobody has open-sourced something? I don't think it matters what languages the Apache ASP modules support, you're almost going to have to re-do a serious web application from scratch when you change platforms.
      --

      Bleh!

    13. Re:How well can it run ASP? by Phroggy · · Score: 2

      you're almost going to have to re-do a serious web application from scratch when you change platforms.

      Well then, that answers that question - switching to Apache is not an option, to many companies.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    14. Re:How well can it run ASP? by Brian+Knotts · · Score: 2
      switching to Apache is not an option, to many companies

      ...and neither is staying on IIS a reasonable option.

      So, now what?

      Well, there's always Chilisoft, which is now owned by Sun.

    15. Re:How well can it run ASP? by ahde · · Score: 2

      if it does much more, I would recommend ASP over IIS either. It isn't really meant for stuff like that. You should put anything complex in either an ISAPI module (not recommended) or COM object.

    16. Re:How well can it run ASP? by ahde · · Score: 2

      you can get chilisoft for 20 bucks with with a $995 Netra.

  2. File this review under... by toupsie · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...Duh!

    --
    Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
  3. Yeah but.. by PopeAlien · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yeah but, unless you hire an 'expensive expert' you can't write off the investment in apache. Thats the problem with free software.

    heh. nevermind.

    1. Re:Yeah but.. by irony+nazi · · Score: 3, Funny
      From the article...
      Because of the magnitude of some of these changes, eWEEK Labs recommends that any site planning a move to Apache 2.0 first set up a system on which it can test all its Web applications and specific setups to make sure they work well on the new server.

      Come on! It doesn't take an 'expensive expert' to know that *whenever* you upgrade a runtime server, you first set up a sandbox where you can test it... or does it? Did they even need to mention this in the article? Maybe they thought that some MSCE would instantly bring down a corporate website and attempt to install Apache, only to find that it doesn't run ASP.
      --

      Bringing irony to the Slash-masses
    2. Re:Yeah but.. by fishebulb · · Score: 2

      they did mention at the bottom that anyone wanting to use apache 2.0 should set up a test server.

      it should be pretty obvious but it's nice they do state it also

    3. Re:Yeah but.. by RageMachine · · Score: 2, Informative

      I work on several Linux boxen running PHP at a local ISP. I don't get paid as much as the 'shop techs'. Im living proof that your statement is partialy false.

      --

      --------------------------
      Is this a sig?
      --------------------------
    4. Re:Yeah but.. by rodgerd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So, when one of Microsoft's fine products is riddled with security holes, apologists blame the systems admins for not being competent.

      When deriding superior, free alternatives, they claim any baboon can administer Microsoft products.

      I'm failing to see the value proposition in a range of products which allow idiots to render a business vulnerable to serious damage.

    5. Re:Yeah but.. by Phroggy · · Score: 2

      Yeah but, unless you hire an 'expensive expert' you can't write off the investment in apache. Thats the problem with free software.

      Is anyone looking to write off an investment? I can be expensive if necessary!

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  4. Ok, but what about linux? by awptic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's nice to see apache beating IIS on windows, but how does IIS compare to apache 2.0 running on linux? I can't find anything with a recent kernel, preferably post-2.4.10. Even an apache on windows vs apache on linux benchmark would be nice.

    1. Re:Ok, but what about linux? by awptic · · Score: 2

      You misread my sentence, or i just wrote it wrong :)
      I meant IIS on WINDOWS vs. Apache 2.0 on linux. mmkay?

  5. Have we all forgotten by madenosine · · Score: 2, Interesting

    that IIS is not so much about raw speed and security as it is web services? That this is what microsoft is really pushing?

    1. Re:Have we all forgotten by vrmlknight · · Score: 2, Funny

      well we all know it is not about security

      --
      This must be Thursday, I never could get the hang of Thursdays.
    2. Re:Have we all forgotten by 1010011010 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, we forgot, because all their ads were about speed. All the benchmarks they paid for/trotted out were about speed. Apache was about "doing it right, no fast" ... now that IIS isn't as fast, IIS is about "services?"

      --
      Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
  6. Every time by SkulkCU · · Score: 5, Informative


    "unfriendly administration interface"
    looks to be the only negative thing they could say about it.

    In fact, it seems to be the only bad thing I ever hear these days about most open source programs.
    What the hell is going on? Do we need to hire some UI consultants from Microsoft or something?

    Applefans: I'm kidding

    --
    .sig last updated Jan. 14, 2000
    1. Re:Every time by archen · · Score: 2, Informative

      "unfriendly administration interface"

      looks to be the only negative thing they could say about it.


      Yeah, and I'd say that's a matter of opinion too. So what if I have to go a (gasp) config file. I mean the apache config files are very well commented, clear, and pretty easy to understand. So I don't have cute buttons and whirly-gigs on my administration interface - trust me I won't cry myself to sleep at night. My main problem with IIS is that the configuration tools never seem to work quite right, or take forever to do _anything_.
      Of course I'm pretty biased since I've always had good results with Apache. I've also never been all that impressed with the MS config tools using MS specific terminology which I have to look up in help files to figure out what they're talking about (yeah, my fault for not learning it).

    2. Re:Every time by shogun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "unfriendly administration interface"
      looks to be the only negative thing they could say about it.

      In fact, it seems to be the only bad thing I ever hear these days about most open source programs.
      What the hell is going on? Do we need to hire some UI consultants from Microsoft or something?


      I would have to say quite the opposite about trying to admin an IIS machine, you want to change a simple setting? Expect to spend half an hour navigating menus till you find the setting hidden in some illogical unexpected location. Meanwhile to change the setting on almost any open source software package, just grep the config file(s) and you'll find where the option you want is within a couple of seconds.

    3. Re:Every time by flacco · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I don't have cute buttons and whirly-gigs on my administration interface

      That's because you're an "expensive expert", donchaknow.

      Christ, let's just give them GUI tools for config files and be done with it. It would ease the transition for a lot of IIS "admins" who would like to take a step up in life but have an inertia/familiarity problem. Settings that have a list of valid options to select from, a "help" button next to each item to help them grok the stuff that IIS has been hidig from them...

      Point being, don't let your superiority complex get in the way of an effective conversion effort.

      --
      pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
    4. Re:Every time by Bitsy+Boffin · · Score: 2
      There are alredy gui tools for apache configuration - eg Comanche.

      And also "over the web" configuration managers ( configure Apache, using Apache :-) )- eg WebMin (screen shot of apache module).

      --
      NZ Electronics Enthusiasts: Check out my Trade Me Listings
    5. Re:Every time by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's only unfriendly to a person that cannot grok the advantages of text file based configuration, such as being able to copy the file to a source repository, grep it for keywords, parse it using a regular expression, etc. etc.

      In reality a text file configuration is worth a million GUI config tools.

    6. Re:Every time by glitch! · · Score: 2

      I would have to say quite the opposite about trying to admin an IIS machine, you want to change a simple setting? Expect to spend half an hour navigating menus till you find the setting hidden in some illogical unexpected location.

      Well, if you are in a hurry, that might be a real bummer. On the other hand, you could consider the menus like a kind of GUI "adventure" game, trying to find the magic icon to push so that you can go back to the great cavern (sorry, main menu) and activate the special option.

      I'm joking of course, but then again I do see a parallel between learning to navigate a GUI and the patient exploration of an adventure-style game. For instance, I learned just about everything I ever needed to know about OS/2 just by exploring all the possible system menus. That - and reading both OS/2 2.11 Unleashed and OS/2 Warp Unleashed :-)

      --
      A dingo ate my sig...
    7. Re:Every time by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes a textfile, especially a well commented one like the default shipped with Apache is far easier than a gui. Gui`s work well for relatively simple tasks (eg the controls of a web browser), but when the interface needs to display thousands of possible options it just looks cluttered, and the only way to combat the clutter is to hide the options under sub menus, which destroys the usability aspect. Ofcourse you can search a textfile, how do you find which submenu a particular gui option is under, i have yet to see a gui which you could search for a particular option or an option containing a particular value.
      And ofcourse you have more flexibility in configuration files, to type in strange custom configurations that a gui designed would never expect.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    8. Re:Every time by cscx · · Score: 2, Funny

      I've also never been all that impressed with the MS config tools using MS specific terminology which I have to look up in help files to figure out what they're talking about

      Yeah, I know the feeling. Here, I'm in the IIS admin applet right now. Let's see if some of these are giving you trouble:

      "TCP Port" That's a toughie.

      "IP Address" Ouch it's gettin' harder.

      "Home Directory" Oooh shiiiit... what was that again?

      "Read/Write/Allow Directory Browsing" Directory Browsing? Is that like uh, ls?

      "Execute permissions: Scripts/Scripts and Executables/None" Huh? You mean like Apache.exe? What's an executable?

      "App Protection: Isolated/Pooled/In-process" Oh man, you like, have to be an uber-geek to figure that one out!

      "Default document" What's index.htm do? I forgot. And what's this index.asp stuff anyway? Is it like PHP or perl or something?

      "Document footer" Footer? Hah! Sounds like cooter! It must be one of those dirty Easter eggs that MS puts in their programs! Or maybe it has something to do with shoe size.

      "IP Address and Domain restrictions" Uhh, what's an IP address again?

      "Authentication Control" Who is this "anonymous" person and what does he have to do with IIS? Is he related to that Anonymous Coward guy?

      "MIME Types" Heh, I hate mimes too. Reminds me of the good old days in the park.

      "Custom error pages" Wots a 404?

      Yes, this "MS Specific terminology" is sure a killer, all right. Man, if I got a hold of Bill Gates I'd let him have it with him inventing terms like "IP Address," "MIME type," and "executable." And that "home directory" stuff is just going too far.

    9. Re:Every time by maxpublic · · Score: 2

      Although I favor Apache over IIS for obvious reasons, I also favor GUI interfaces over manually editing config files. When I was young (oh so long ago...) we did that not because it was cool, or because it made us 'ubergeeks', but because *we didn't have any friggin' choice*.

      Now we do. Modifying config files is fine; being able to modify multiple files quickly and easily via a GUI interface is even better. I'll take the GUI tools because I'm old and I don't care what any youngin' fresh out of college thinks about me and my quest for the quickest, laziest alternative. I know that someday he too will be old and lazy and looking for the easy road, and then he'll understand.

      I still use Apache (laziness aside, it's the better product hands-down), but yeah, I'd *really* like a set of Tools For the Braindead(TM). I'm sure there are a number of Apache administrators who've had the same thought at one time or another, at least in the over-30 crowd.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    10. Re:Every time by Electrum · · Score: 2

      Congratulations, you just described how Zeus' configuration works. It's configuration file format is MUCH saner and nicer than Apaches, and it comes with a great web configuration GUI, that is much nicer than the one that comes with IIS. Their web GUI lets you see exactly what it will be doing to the config file.

    11. Re:Every time by wdr1 · · Score: 2

      In reality a text file configuration is worth a million GUI config tools.

      Why is this always put in the context of one or the either?

      Why can't you have a nice human-parasable text file AND a GUI interface?

      Sure, I like the text interface for Apache. If you run multiple servers, it's *awesome*. Being able to rsync or dist one file is a huge timesaver over manually pulling up the config screen on anywhere from a dozen to fifty servers. Providing a base configuration and having machine specific settings in an include files rocks. And some of the slick tricks you can pull off w/ embedded perl (via mod_perl) is a blessing.

      However, there are times when I just want to try something out, or setup something special on my dev box and HATE crawling through the apache docs to try to figure out the specific syntax I need. Ugh. It's a total pain in the ass. The distributed documentation is only decent and light on examples. The O'Reilly Apache book is one of the few that suck. I'd love a little gui application I could pop up and get the basics in place. Sure, one I know it, I'll probably do it by hand going forward, but jumpstarting would be a big timesaver.

      So why not put this argument to bed and just offer both as built-in support with apache?

      -Bill

      --
      SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
    12. Re:Every time by haystor · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yea, but do they have a slider that you can drag to the right to optimize the web servers performance?

      Does IIS still have that? Surely that was a joke that got left in by accident or it was at least mislabelled since there was no reason to have the bar to the left.

      --
      t
    13. Re:Every time by Fweeky · · Score: 2

      > So why not put this argument to bed and just offer both as built-in support with apache?

      Go write one suitable for production use, give it to the Apache Software Foundation, and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to bundle it, or at least provide it as a seperate subproject.

    14. Re:Every time by guinsu · · Score: 2

      What a load of bullshit, you can be in and out of IIS in about 30 seconds. The only time you need to go looking for something obscure is when you are changing a setting that actually _is_ obscure. All the common stuff like index files, diretory security, 404's are pretty easy to find under the tabs.

    15. Re:Every time by Phroggy · · Score: 2

      You have been eaten by a grue.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    16. Re:Every time by daeley · · Score: 2

      Why can't you have a nice human-parasable text file AND a GUI interface?

      Hmm....

      --
      I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
    17. Re:Every time by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

      ugly interfaces are inferior! Go ask any MCSE and they will tell you that gui interfaces are supperior to any text file editing. Geez

    18. Re:Every time by ahde · · Score: 3, Funny

      I always got lost in httpd.conf till I piped it through grep -v ^#

  7. windows version by cdf12345 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    After three years of development, Apache 2.0 (or, more accurately, Version 2.035) has finally been released. Unix users will find plenty to like in Version 2.0, but the biggest impact will be on Windows servers, where Apache can now perform as a production-level Web server.

    I would hope no one was using the windows version for the last 3 years, this gives little reason to trash their unix to jump to windows.

    --
    Chicago2600.net more than a lifestyle, its a survival trait.
  8. So Lets See by Peridriga · · Score: 5, Funny
    The Upside
    • Free
    • Runs On
    • Windows
    • BeOS
    • OS/2
    • *Nix
    No Performance Difference Interchangeable Modules

    Downside
    • "All configuration and administration is done by editing .conf files


    HOLY DAMN... Edit A FILE!!!!
    1. Re:So Lets See by dimator · · Score: 2

      Seriously. When did "admins" turn into such pussies? Using text-based configuration is not so bad, especially when you can put the full power of $EDITOR and perl/sh/etc to use grinding on them to get things done quickly, without fumbling with a mouse for 10 minutes.

      --
      python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
    2. Re:So Lets See by stirfry714 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You forgot the upside "can't be hacked by any script kiddie out there who's downloaded the latest attack script".

      Of course, there's always the downsides for Apache- "log files get awfully full of failed attacks from owned IIS servers" and "don't get the amusement value of seeing what's been done to your web server's main page every morning by some cracker from China".

    3. Re:So Lets See by JordanH · · Score: 4, Informative
      Not only that, but you can trade:

      • Free

      For:

      • "All configuration and administration is done by editing .conf files

      If you buy the product your Apache from Covalent. They offer all kinds of Enterprise services to support Apache, too, so there goes the one about Apache not having a support organization behind it like IIS.

    4. Re:So Lets See by doorbot.com · · Score: 2, Informative

      Obviously the point-and-click interface is far too limited for configuring. I'd like to present my "think and type" method of input, patent pending of course. If you'd like to license this technology, please type me up an email. Please note that in doing so I will be forced to charge you (retroactively) for previous use of my technology.

      But seriously, is editing a file such a big deal? What did people do with DOS and autoexec.bat files? Cower away in fear?

    5. Re:So Lets See by TaoJones · · Score: 4, Funny
      Mmm, so editing a well documented text file is hard, while drilling down through a badly documented menu system (which reinstalls Visual Basic Scripting in the background without asking) is easy...


      I'll take hard for $200 Alex...

      --
      "Fear is the rootkit of democracy.." Blarkon
    6. Re:So Lets See by Peyna · · Score: 2

      With apache you can quickly write a shell script to add websites, etc. Run the script, answer a few simple questions, it will set the rest up. Need it a little different? Go in the conf and change it. Or copy and paste the previous entries and change a few things.

      I liken configuring IIS to trying to do CSS in VS, it's a real neat tool and all, but I'm better off editing a text file to get it done. I'm also more confident in the security of Apache when I configure it. It's so easy to determine who has access to what, and what rights they have there.

      --
      What?
    7. Re:So Lets See by rodgerd · · Score: 2

      Especially when it comes to configuring a farm of systems - copying text files around is a lot easier than pointing and clicking again, and again, and again...

    8. Re:So Lets See by spongman · · Score: 2
      there's (at least) 4 different ways to administer the IIS metabase (all of them are more or less orthogonal).
      • via the MMC plugin
      • via the web interface (if you installed it)
      • via COM interfaces (the same ones that the MMC uses) using some COM enabled language, javascript being the easiest
      • via LDAP
      There's no text file because it's a database.

      Has Apache switched to XML conf files yet? There's nothing like a schema to make sure you've typed the right things.

    9. Re:So Lets See by spongman · · Score: 2

      you can write simple a VBScript/JScript script to deploy IIS metabase info. it takes a little time to learn the interfaces, but it's no harder than learning the syntax of .conf files.

    10. Re:So Lets See by spongman · · Score: 2

      any sysadmin that thinks that the only way to administer IIS is through the MMC also deserves to be fired.

    11. Re:So Lets See by Sabalon · · Score: 2

      you forgot on the plus side:

      - can upgrade web server without OS reboot
      - uses simple .conf files for config instead of registry or god knows what

    12. Re:So Lets See by Darth_Burrito · · Score: 2

      I use Apache on Debian and I like some of the stuff you can do editting the config files but ...

      The config process is overly complicated. When I first started using Apache there was srm.conf, httpd.conf, access.conf. It was sometimes difficult to determine which directives were supposed to go where and what all the files were for. Sometimes I would find myself putting something in one file that got over ridden in another file. Another annoying thing about Text file configuration is the syntatical complexity. If I am setting the server name, and I make a typo, well that is my own stupid fault... but I shouldn't have to worry about making a typo in the syntax for the ServerName directive.

      There should be a level of abstraction between a user and whatever files a program accesses to determine its configuration. If properly implemented, a layer of abstraction can protect the user from himself, protect the software from the user, and make configuration easier by including some context to the config options (Eg help). What does UseCanonicalNames mean? Hover the mouse over it to find out.

      I have read hundreds of posts by people having config problems with Apache and a good number from IIS/PWS as well. In Apache, it's usually typos or not understanding directives, with IIS/PWS it's often some weird registry hack causing the problem (how do I enable cgi). Both of these issues could be greatly reduced by a good graphical configuration utility with cross referenced help.

    13. Re:So Lets See by EvlG · · Score: 2

      I really hope Apache NEVER switches to XML config files. Why? Typing all those tags is a HUGE pain.

      Apache config files work just fine now. Why switch? Just to have buzzword compliance, and inconvenience millions of apache users in the process? I think not.

    14. Re:So Lets See by Sabalon · · Score: 2

      That would be the whatever part :)

      Either way, it's still not as straightforward as .conf

    15. Re:So Lets See by ceswiedler · · Score: 2

      Using Microsoft's COM interfaces in VBScript is extremely easy. While I wouldn't recommend it for much else, VBScript is certainly no worse than Unix shell scripting.

      Of course, around here, where everyone knows Unix and shell scripting, this seems looney. But the examples posted under this article about how "shell scripts make Apache easy to maintain" are easily duplicated with VBScript. The big difference isn't that Windows isn't scriptable, it's that most Windows admins don't bother to learn scripting.

      Do you think REALLY big companies who rely on Windows hire admins who point-and-click their way through everything?

      FUD goes both ways.

    16. Re:So Lets See by kruczkowski · · Score: 2

      Don't forget when your doing your documetation on your system you can just print your config file, and not have to take screenshots of every window and put them in powerpoint slides.

      "Yha, click here, no it's under the 3rd tab... no... wait it's here"

      Or

      "Line 13"

      --
      hmm... for fun I enjoy launching DDoS attacks against 127.87.42.5
    17. Re:So Lets See by Peridriga · · Score: 2

      8ms Avg round trip time!!...

      God's got more latency than I thought

    18. Re:So Lets See by ahde · · Score: 2

      What happens when you add your own directives though? It's pretty hard to make a typo if you can't type it.

  9. ASP Support by Fuzion · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Most places use IIS because they want to use ASP as their scripting language, instead of Perl/PHP. What is the performance like with an ASP parser?
    I don't think too many people will switchover, if it means having to rewrite all their ASP code, or if using an ASP parser is slower than using IIS, especially since IIS is free (if you have Windows), whereas the chilisoft asp parser costs money.
    I don't know of any other free asp parsers. But, if there were ones that offered comparable performance, I'm sure a lot of people would switch over.

    --
    "Knowledge makes us accountable." - Che Guevara
    1. Re:ASP Support by Peyna · · Score: 2

      Ha! IIS is only "free" if you have Windows Server, lowly little XP Pro only allows for 1-3 connections I believe. Not very useful for much of anything really.

      --
      What?
    2. Re:ASP Support by pmc · · Score: 2

      Windows 2000/XP Professional only allows a maximum of 5 inbound CLIENT connections.

      Wrong. The number is 10. See Q122920 for the details.

      Sheesh - maybe if I keep saying it people will learn.

  10. Just awful by rocjoe71 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...What a bad article. Starting off by claiming Apache 2 outperforms IIS in their very own tests, yet making not one iota of these alleged "tests" available. Really an artivle like this does a dis-service to Apache and Linux, smacking of evangelism.

    --
    Height: 38U, Weight: 0 Newtons, Eyes: #0000FF, OS: Gray Matter 1.0 (Alpha)
  11. ISAPI applictions by Maddog_Delphi97 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The news blurb doesn't go into any detail as to HOW they benchmarked it (for all I know, they might've tested only static web pages and CGI applications)... does anyone know how well it runs ISAPI applications? And is it easy to set up to be able to run ISAPI applications?

    (An ISAPI application is basically a DLL files that is loaded into memory and it stays in memory until it was 'halted' by an administrator, thus giving it a protential performance boost over CGI applications. That's the theory, anyway..)

    1. Re:ISAPI applictions by squiggleslash · · Score: 2
      I evaluated this myself. I can't benchmark the performance, but it seemed adequate, ie I couldn't see the difference (but the DLL we use spends most of its time making TCP connections to another box, so if there's something funky that ISAPI DLLs do that means they're making lots of calls to their caller, then my experience will not be that valuable.)

      It works fine, just make sure you use the configuration option (I forget which, but it's on the ISAPI page in the Apache 2.0 docs) to keep the damned thing in memory, and if it still seems slow, double check the errors log as that will contain warnings if it couldn't preload the DLL for some reason (like a typo in the path or summat.) Unlike other configuration options, Apache will blissfully ignore errors with that particular setting.

      It's worth checking out.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  12. Re:10,000,000 active web sites can't be wrong..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How come unix zealots are so willing to point out the number of apache sites compared to IIS, but when someone brings up the amount of Windows vs. Unix users overall, you come up with petty excuses?

  13. Eh? by MisterBlister · · Score: 5, Insightful
    What a crappy 'comparison'. I'm no IIS fan (an understatement), but IIS's 'game' is ease of installation and administration....The headline claims that Apache 'beats IIS at its own game' and then goes on to say how Apache is harder to configure (though better than older versions) but that's ok because many experts believe GUI-based configurations are bad for security?

    Also, they don't even bother to publish any real results, all they say is "Apache kept pace with IIS during the entire test"..WTF does that mean in reality? Were they using dynamic pages or static? What were the software and hardware configs like? Numbers please?

    If this article were the other way around harping IIS over Apache 2.0, most Slashdotters would (rightly in that case too) be ripping it to shreds for being a flimsy piece of shit..Hopefully we can all see it for the garbage it is, even if in the end it supports our (well the majority of us, anyway) favorite web server.

    1. Re:Eh? by MisterBlister · · Score: 2

      I apologize for responding to my own post, but I forgot to add something...This article smacks of intentional Slashdotting. Someone at zdnet clearly knows that Slashdot will post any article that even hints at (Linux|Apache|OSS|Whatever > Microsoft). Why do the Slashdot editors keep being successfully trolled in this way? Ignore these stupid ass stories. They make me stupider for having read them.

    2. Re:Eh? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

      Out of curiosity, is this Apache vanilla, with no apache modules plugged in? If so, what's the point of comparing it to IIS?

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    3. Re:Eh? by jchawk · · Score: 3, Funny

      apt-get install apache

      Then some minor and I mean minor configuration and you have a webserver that is more robust and secure then IIS.

      You need php support?

      apt-get install php4

      Follow installation script.

      Man that's hard!

      :-)

      Maybe I'm just spoiled because I use debian.

    4. Re:Eh? by Sabalon · · Score: 5, Funny


      C:\Program Files\Apache> apt-get install apache
      'apt-get' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
      operable program or batch file.

      C:\Program Files\Apache> apt-get install php4
      'apt-get' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
      operable program or batch file.


      So I now have apache with php support? :)

      It really is a shame that tools like that don't just work on Winders. Then again

      apt-get install secureMSwebserver

      would probably crash the OS.

    5. Re:Eh? by sydb · · Score: 2

      Even the with the biggies like WebSphere, WebLogic, HPAS you still see SysAdmins tweaking in the config files as often as using the management interfaces.

      Hehehe that's funny, I've just spent the entire night through to 5 in the morning fucking with Websphere suffering under the sheer inadequacy and instability of the stupid slow crash-promoting java-based stinking pile of shit fucking admin console. Thank fuck for wscp in WAS4. Oh how I wish it didn't take half a minute to start every time I run it.

      Did I say fuck?

      --
      Yours Sincerely, Michael.
    6. Re:Eh? by um...+Lucas · · Score: 2

      IIS can be made just as secure as Apache, and those that think it's security is flawed are doing nothing but showing their ignorance of the product.

      I think, as others have probably pointed out, you're showing your ignorance. The problems with IIS aren't just the registry settings, that you can fix. They're in the coding, that Microsoft has to fix. Sometimes, hackers are kind enough to give Microsoft notice of the exploit prior to announcing it's existance to the world. Other times they're not. And there's nothing that you, Joe End-User, can do about it.

      Yes, holes will probably be found in Apache, but with every mention of a hole will probably be a mentioning of a fix.

      IIS just has such a lame security history compared to Apache, that shouldn't be an arguing point. If you like IIS, just say so. But acknowledge the facts.

      I've already paid for the OS license, and I get IIS for free with it whether I use it or not.

      You can also get Apache for free, whether you purchased an OS license or not... With all the words mentioning it, aren't you in the slightest bit curious as to what all the hype is about? The last version you checked out was a completely experimental release... This one is ready for prime time consumption...

    7. Re:Eh? by Fweeky · · Score: 2

      Lucky for you Apache comes with a KLIK install system. There's no particular reason they couldn't extend that to provide a bit more flexibility over the installed config.

      Nor is there any particular reason the PHP team couldn't write an MSI that supported Apache. No need for yet another set of tools that don't really fit in with the Windows way of doing things (although I suppose apt works quite like Windows when dependencies get screwed up or the "registry" gets damaged *grin*).

    8. Re:Eh? by dublin · · Score: 2

      Maybe I'm just spoiled because I use debian.

      Of course, you're leaving out the most hideous, complex, and mine-ridden install of any OS on the planet. I'm convinced the Debian developers do this on purpose so that any Debian users have proven themselves "worthy" simply by virtue of jumping through the endless hoops required the get the piece of dung running. I for one have far better things to do with my time. (And for the record, the only time I have ever totally horked a Linux machine was Debian's fault after doing an apt-get update (yes, from stable): the machine froze instantly and was so botched it would not boot. It was easier to start over with Red Hat or Caldera (I don't recall which I used, now) than try to untangle the damage.)

      I like some of the concepts in Debian, but it's really a pain in the butt to get up and running correctly. Somehow the Debian team thinks this situation is OK, as it's been that way for years now. If someone would munge the *concepts* behind e-smith and debian together, we'd really have something...

      --
      "The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last ./ post
  14. Apache is consistently underrated by the media by graveyhead · · Score: 5, Informative

    I've always found it frustrating that the superior products produced by the Apache foundation are so sorely underrated by the mainstream media. Buzzwords like "BroadVision" and "WebSphere" are pounded into the heads of middle management by way of large advertising budgets. The truth is, however, that I can do anything a BroadVision developer can do *with no software cost whatsoever*

    Cocoon is a brilliant publishing system which combines many of the Apache projects: Xalan for XSLT transformations of all kinds, FOP for building dynamic PDFs (don't pay Adobe but use their format anyway :-) from XSL:FO, Batik for building dynamic SVGs, and a ton of library code that makes building dynamic websites very easy.

    Not to mention, Apache has provided us with solid implementations of *many* w3c and Java specifications, including SOAP for XML based RPC, and JServ and Tomcat Java servlet engines.

    My point is only this: appreciate The Apache Foundation because they totally rock!

    --
    std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
    1. Re:Apache is consistently underrated by the media by larien · · Score: 2

      Websphere is not equivalent to Apache (in fact, you need a real webserver with Websphere; Apache works for this). Websphere is more like Tomcat/Jakarta/Jserv with bells and whistles. It also supports clustering (both load balancing and failover) as well as various addons.

  15. IIS6 by banky · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have read a number of things about IIS6: mostly that it is a from-scratch rewrite, with a particular eye on security. Also you can assume it'll perform pretty well.

    So, as much as I would like to see the world dump IIS in general, a lot of shops out there will probably just wait and move to IIS6 when .NET Server (or whatever it's called this week) comes out.

    They know how much is riding on this release. If IIS6 isn't tight, fast, and secure, then people will start jumping ship.

    --
    ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
    1. Re:IIS6 by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      mostly that it is a from-scratch rewrite, with a particular eye on security

      It will be interesting to see how this "from scratch rewrite" holds up security-wise. History has taught us that it usually takes a long time for a new code base to get the security holes wrung out.

    2. Re:IIS6 by glob · · Score: 2, Informative

      i hate to say this, but from what i've read of ii6, it looks like microsoft are finially listening to sysadmin.

      check out http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/02/03/IIS 6/IIS6.asp

      the main things that jump out at me are it uses xml as their metabase (finially i can use my perl scripts to *eaisly* maintain iis sties) and ftp *finially* supports chroot.

      --
      nostrils
    3. Re:IIS6 by tshak · · Score: 2

      Actually, you have to remember that a lot of security issues have to do with ASP. They are _NOT_ rewriting the ASP ISAPI, so any related security issues will not be affected by the rewrite. They have rewritten IIS6 with a focus on bounds checking due to the ludicrous amounts of buffer overflow holes. Companies will also be moveing away from the clumsy ASP to the not-even-in-the-same-league ASP.NET which is, in theory, a lot more secure.

      --

      There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
    4. Re:IIS6 by Wakko+Warner · · Score: 2, Funny

      I have read a number of things about IIS6: mostly that it is a from-scratch rewrite, with a particular eye on security. Also you can assume it'll perform pretty well.

      Why should we assume this? Given the track record, it's like "expecting" Hulk Hogan to beat The Rock.

      - A.P. (christ, i feel so rednecky)

      --
      "Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
    5. Re:IIS6 by loconet · · Score: 2, Funny

      "..with a particular eye on security"

      ohhh, so thats why iis is so unsecure, it ony has one eye! .. you would think MS would make use of two eyes instead

      --
      [alk]
    6. Re:IIS6 by banky · · Score: 3, Interesting

      IIS has always performed well, and Microsoft knows that benchmarks sell licenses.

      In fact, I used to have arguments that went like this all the time:
      IIS User: IIS is faster and easier to use!
      Me: Apache is more stable, more secure by default, and easier to extend.
      IU: But I can handle 20 bazillion hits a nanosecond, your site can't scale.
      Me: Whatever.
      IU: Ha, I bet you can barely saturate a T1! etc

      Microsoft is obsessed with performance because performance benchmarks give "tangible" proof of goodness. They are not obsessed with security, because features are more important. Or were; who knows what it's like there now.

      --
      ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
    7. Re:IIS6 by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2

      You'll be waiting a very long time, unfortunately. Moz isn't better for a consumer, maybe for a geek... but the important thing is that for the consumer it works with every site. They don't care about HTML standards, they just want to be able to order their books, and read their hotmail knowing it will work.

      If the rumors are true about AOL moving to Moz(Gecko), we are going to see some interesting times. AOL is still the largest user population, and if they ship Moz, a lot of webmasters are going to be fixing up their pages.

    8. Re:IIS6 by Wakko+Warner · · Score: 2

      Yeah, it worked really well on wehavethewayout.com.

      Fucking retard.

      - A.P.

      --
      "Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
    9. Re:IIS6 by daeley · · Score: 2

      ohhh, so thats why iis is so unsecure, it ony has one eye! .. you would think MS would make use of two eyes instead

      Well, that would be missing the point, what with Sauron founding the...

      Never mind, I've said too much already.

      --
      I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
    10. Re:IIS6 by cpeterso · · Score: 2


      Please do not believe that Microsoft would ACTUALLY rewrite IIS 6 from "scratch". They have too much time/money invested in their codebase. This "rewrite" is just a PR scam. They could prevent many IIS security problems if IIS did not run as the user "LocalSystem" (aka full Administrator privleges).

      IIS has had plenty of security problems over the years. I don't think this is enough to convince people to "upgrade" to something like Apache 2.0, especially if their existing ASP code must be rewritten for Apache. You must convince both the PHB who owns the budget purse strings and the MSCE who can't read a .conf file that investing time/money in Apache is valuable. Security is invisible, so it's not really a "feature" so in the PHB's eyes, security is not worth money (yet)..

  16. free ASP support would switch small shops by stego · · Score: 2

    I'm half of 2 person IT department. The environment was ASP on NT before I arrived and too much has been developed to switch now. We are small and busy and don't necessarily have 100% to give to keeping up with patches and MS Critical Updates - I would certainly be able to engineer a switch to Apache on Windows away from IIS so very easily if only there was ASP support.

    1. Re:free ASP support would switch small shops by DavidJA · · Score: 2, Flamebait

      I'm half of 2 person IT department...don't necessarily have 100% to give to keeping up with patches and MS Critical Updates

      Are you Serious? How fucking difficult is it to to Start => Windows Update => Product Updates => Start Download.

      We run 5 public web servers here, and when I get the Microsoft Security Update e-mail, I run windows update, schedule a reboot for 3am the next day and jobs done!

    2. Re:free ASP support would switch small shops by Brendan+Byrd · · Score: 2

      You know...I kinda get tired doing that 3 times a week. Plus, I don't want to even think of how long those SERIOUS security flaws have been lurking in those servers for how many YEARS, and only NOW has MS told me about it!

    3. Re:free ASP support would switch small shops by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A 3am reboot on a public webserver that may be trying to be viewed by people on the other side of the world isn`t a very good solution. I find it VERY irritating when a website i`m trying to read goes down to reboot for 10 minutes or however long. Moreso, if you delay the reboot then you are still vulnerable for those hours until 3am, assuming you stop work at 5pm, that leaves 10 hours for someone to break in and install backdoors, which wont be removed by your update - plenty of time for even the most stupid of scriptkiddies.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    4. Re:free ASP support would switch small shops by StoneTear · · Score: 3, Informative

      The IIS patches aren't on liveupdate, you have to go get them

    5. Re:free ASP support would switch small shops by crisco · · Score: 2
      Dude, that doesn't catch all the updates they issue. They've gotten better after Code Red (IIRC, the Code Red vulnerability fix wasn't on the windowsupdate site when it hit) but if you run that little update check utility they just put out, you'll find a load of stuff that escaped the automated updates.

      Now if you're actually tracking down those updates you get in the email and installing each one, you're doing your part to keep my Apache log files a little cleaner.

      --

      Bleh!

    6. Re:free ASP support would switch small shops by pbrammer · · Score: 2

      Too bad you have to reboot. That must suck for a production webserver, considering the number of security releases that are sent out by Microsoft. Now, over in my world, it's kinda nice (since I'm a RH user) to execute the up2date command. It'll download everything, and guess what?! No reboot! Hell, I don't even have to wait for a late security e-mail to show up in my mailbox. I can even schedule the thing via cron...

    7. Re:free ASP support would switch small shops by Pope+Slackman · · Score: 3, Funny

      We are small and busy and don't necessarily have 100% to give to keeping up with patches and MS Critical Updates

      Hey, what's your IP?

      C-X C-S

    8. Re:free ASP support would switch small shops by greenfly · · Score: 2

      Unless up2date requires you to upgrade your kernel (which it would in a stock RH7.1 box at the moment). Then you will have to reboot.

    9. Re:free ASP support would switch small shops by DavidJA · · Score: 3, Informative

      The IIS patches aren't on liveupdate, you have to go get them

      That is BULLSHIT you have no idea about what you are talking about, and it appears the moderators have no idea either.

      The last 10 patches (from MS02-18 to MS02-006) have ALL appeared on Windows Update at the same time or before the Microsoft security update is e-mailed.

  17. better title.... by bje2 · · Score: 5, Funny

    should've been Apache 2.0 scalps IIS...

    --

    "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." - Homer Simpson
  18. Answering one's own questions is lame. by SkulkCU · · Score: 4, Interesting


    Despite a general disdain for replying to my own post, here's a nifty little list of Why Free Software Usability Tends to Suck that I just noticed. In my experience, numbers 2 and 5, at least, are true.

    Disclaimer: I've found the Apache interface on Windows to be far less irritating than IIS.

    --
    .sig last updated Jan. 14, 2000
  19. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  20. Re:newbie? by zapfie · · Score: 2

    Easy there.. that guy was a troll.. keep in mind that the loudest voice doesn't necessarily represent the majority of the population.. most of the Linux users I talk to are pretty friendly folk, but usually the ones who are smug are smug in excess. I wouldn't fret that guy, just ignore him.

    --
    slashdot!=valid HTML
  21. .conf files by lothix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Dealing with .conf files instead of a GUI interface is an _advantage_ not a disadvantage. If we really needed a GUI frontend for making changes to a conf file there would be a bunch of them floating around. It takes no time to slap one together. In fact, IBM HTTP Server which is a "cutified" apache comes with a web form interface for configuring .conf files. Of course I've never seen anyone use it because it is quicker and easier to edit a text file than dig around in interface panels.

    1. Re:.conf Files by eples · · Score: 2


      why doesn't the apache team use .xml files for the configuration files

      Funny, the .conf files look like they are in XML format to me.

      --
      I'm a 2000 man.
  22. Re:Performance gains by norwoodites · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You have to use an OS where a thread is not another process like Solaris or Mac OS X, for Mac OS X you have to use Darwin 6.0(or Mac OS X 10.2)

  23. Look for mod_aspnet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    ASP.NET from the Microsoft.NET SDK is only loosely bound to IIS. There is one .dll (like an Apache module) that fowards all ASP.NET requests from IIS to a seperate HTTP Handler for C#/VB.NET ASP pages. Some people are all ready working on mod_aspnet to do the same forwarding under Apache.

    L8ers IIS :)

  24. PHP 4.X support. by shri · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One of these days PHP will support Apache 2.0 and then we can revisit these benchmarks. Until then I'll write this off as a Zdnet troll for Slashdot attention.

    1. Re:PHP 4.X support. by shri · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately, that an 'RC'. That would be equivalent of running an RC from Microsoft and expecting it to work in a production environment.

      I'll hold off till Apache 2.1 and a later build of PHP before I move my websites to it. Again, I'll only do that if there is a major performance increase. The bottle necks I have right now on my website are related to mod_gzip and php ( generating dynamic content ), NOT related to Apache serving the content once its generated.

      I've not researched Apache 2.0 well enough and there arent enough articles which document the performance increases in dynamic environments with Apache 2.0.

    2. Re:PHP 4.X support. by shri · · Score: 2, Informative
      As the article says. If you're running a 1.current release of Apache on Linux, there is no significant reason to switch over.

      On Unix, don't expect a big performance boost with the new release. In tests of Apache 2.0 vs. Apache 1.3.24 running on Red Hat Inc.'s Red Hat Linux 7.2, performance was nearly identical (though still very good). However, platforms such as Solaris and AIX, where a process switch is relatively slower than it is on Linux, will benefit much more from Apache 2.0's hybrid process/thread design.
  25. This article is just reverse-FUD... by coupland · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm a big fan of Apache too, but this article is a piece of crap. They assert Apache 2.0 is as fast as IIS 5.0 on Windows but offer no benchmarks. They acknowledge that IIS had 10 security alerts this past week but offer no equivalent stat for Apache. (A thousand? Zero?) They don't even acknowledge that moving from IIS to Apache is a potentially career-ending chore. I love good reviews of OSS as much as the rest but this was more of a videobit than an actual article...

    1. Re:This article is just reverse-FUD... by coupland · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For example, if this article had been about the superiority of IIS the /. crowd would have had a great hairy fit over the lack of objectivity. Similar critical thought should be given to articles praising OSS...

    2. Re:This article is just reverse-FUD... by cscx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They acknowledge that IIS had 10 security alerts this past week but offer no equivalent stat for Apache.

      I believe this might be alluding to "Q319733: Internet Information Services Security Roll-up Package" which in a nutshell is a cumulative hotfix for all the exploits in IIS up to date. But then again, this guy is just a technical writer; he's probably never seen a server in his life.

    3. Re:This article is just reverse-FUD... by HeinJan · · Score: 2, Interesting
      If you look at the links under the actual article you find this one.

      "A study of Apache security advisories dating back to Apache 1.0 shows the server's last serious problem (one where remote attackers could run arbitrary code on the server) was announced in January 1997. This problem was a buffer overflow in Apache's cookie module that was fixed in Apache 1.1.3.

      A group of less serious problems (including a buffer overflow in the server's logresolve utility) was announced and fixed in January 1998 with Apache 1.2.5. In the three and a half years since then, Apache's only remote security problems have been a handful of denial-of-service and information leakage problems (where attackers can see files or directory listings they shouldn't)."

      There are your numbers :)

    4. Re:This article is just reverse-FUD... by cpeterso · · Score: 2


      good point. For example, is Apache 2.0 on Windows vulnerable to the ::$DATA filename bug? That bug was not an IIS bug as much as a stupid "feature" of NTFS, so it could also affect Apache!

  26. Book? by Micah · · Score: 2

    You're right -- when one browses the Apache sites, it's AMAZING how much stuff they've done, most of which few people know about or appreciate.

    Does anyone know of a good complete book on Apache, preferrably Apache 2 now that it's out, that covers most or all of these tools and puts it all together?

    The ONLY problem is that it seems as though most Apache projects now use Java, which I could personally live without.

    1. Re:Book? by jilles · · Score: 2

      Most of the stuff apache has done in Java would be very hard to replicate in other languages because Java has some features most other languages do not have: classloaders, reflection, an extremely flexible security model, garbage collection, tons of other functionality...

      This has nothing to do with the language but it has all to do with the execution environment. Only because these features are there was it possible to create something like tomcat. It's simply a case of the best tool for the best job.

      The only problem with apache and most other OSS projects is the throw it over the fence release policy. Most OSS projects develop and test pretty effectively. However when it comes to releasing a product it's different. Apache for windows comes with a nice installer. However it doesn't integrate very well with the OS in the sense that the management interface provided in that OS is simply not used. This is defended from a point of view of security but my feeling is that this argument is as valid as this post's parent gut feeling arguments regarding the suitability of Java for implementing network applications.

      The main reason UNIX sysadmins are so expensive is the backwards way of configuring it. It doesn't take a genious to get apache configured, just a monkey who's memorized all the parameters and can do the VI voodoo thing. It takes years to memorize all relevant settings of relevant services under linux, hence the overrated price of what could only be seen as the plumbers of the IT world (no offense).

      --

      Jilles
  27. Managers not Admins by BurritoWarrior · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yeah, the article is weak and has no details whatsover, but the average management schmo has little to no knowledge about how a product works anyway. They read mags like eWeek and base their decisions on just these kinds of articles.

    So drop a copy on his desk with a little note about "same performance, better security." See how nice that sounds. :-D

  28. 2 words: by modecx · · Score: 2

    Oranges, Apples.

    Oranges because unix heads are generally bitter-that their infinitely superior operating system is often looked over as antiquated and requires "eXPensive eXPerts", and being hard to use, among other things.

    Apples because the serpent (oops, I really meant salesperson--not) pitching Windows makes users expect to have a sweet eXPerience, flying over luscious green meadows, but in all reality do little that's actually useful.

    In case you missed my point: Servers (oh the shiny pretty oranges) are not meant to be home or office computers (apples being too sweet to actually be good for you, damn those serpents.)

    When you want do get work done, choose the right tool. Sometimes it's Windows, sometimes it's a Mac, and sometimes it's a 64 processor Sun, or IBM, or SGI, or what have you.

    IMHO, Oranges are better tasting anyway.

    --
    Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
  29. Hard to Configure by cgreuter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think it says something about the state of IT when they consider it
    a downside that Apache doesn't have a point-and-click web-based
    configuration tool.

    The only advantage of such interfaces is that they're friendly to
    novices, which is all well and good when you're dealing with a word
    processor or e-mail client, but this is a web server. Anyone
    who uses one for anything other than a toy needs to be (or to hire) a
    skilled professional just to keep the thing running and up to date.
    Anyone who finds editing a text file intimidating has no business
    administrating any kind of server.

    Heck--I wouldn't hire a web administrator who couldn't write
    their own point-and-click configuration tool.

  30. Watch the slashdot effect in action! by awptic · · Score: 3, Interesting
  31. In other words... by kirkb · · Score: 2, Funny

    Instead of "Apache beats IIS at its own game", they could've said "Apache beats IIS at the not-getting-0wned game". :)

    --
    Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
  32. Well of course... by glwtta · · Score: 2

    Obviously Apache will beat IIS at Apache's own game.

    --
    sic transit gloria mundi
  33. You got it backwards... by alexhmit01 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I figure this is a joke, but far too many slashdot posters seem to think they understand accounting.

    When you purchase software licenses, you are making a capital purchase, that will take at least 3 (and often 5) to depreciate. So the cash all flows out at once, but you have to write it out over 3 years.

    Money spent on consultants look great on the balancesheet because they are expenses (and therefore written off immediately), plus they are considered one-time costs for public companies, and don't count as operating expenses. By creating permenant one-time costs (each one one-time of course), they are able to make their financials look better than they are.

    With free software, your costs may be the same, but they are billed as consulting fees or maintenance agreements. All of those costs are easily considered either one-time costs or as regular costs. There are no capital expenses that need to be depreciated.

    Alex

    1. Re:You got it backwards... by giberti · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While I agree with your accounting analysis... if the place is going to run Win2K servers though, there is no additional cost in running IIS (its part of the OS distro) and so unless they make the switch to an open OS such as Linux, they still have to captialize the OS and server cost. So they get hit twice.

      That said, for 90% of places running web servers out there, there are only about a dozen lines in httpd.conf that need to be edited to get the site up and running in a configuration that will suit their needs!

      There are also ton's of great application servers that plug right into it (if they aren't bundled to begin with) and only require minor tweeks. If your developers writing the code can't figure this simple stuff out, they shouldn't call themselves developers.

      --

      AF-Design, web development.
    2. Re:You got it backwards... by Tony-A · · Score: 2

      Disclaimer: I hate accounting, I do not believe in it, but they (accountants) do try and sometimes succeed in doing things right.
      Easiest way to see what's going on is to look at the expenditures as before tax dollars and after tax dollars. Depending on such as cash position and tax status, one after tax dollar can be worth two before tax dollars. Capital assets are bought with after tax dollars. Expenses are paid with before tax dollars.
      Essentially the difference is that if you buy an asset, you pay income tax on the asset until it has been depreciated. The total dollar effect is essentially a wash, but you pay now and get back later.

  34. The only problem by billcopc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apache is eons ahead of IIS in terms of usability and reliability, but the big fat problem is that IIS natively runs VBScript/ASP, while Apache does not (and Chilisoft doesn't always cut the mustard). Lots of companies are somewhat locked-in to IIS because of their existing VBScript code which they're not willing to port to PHP or Perl, either because of ignorance or lack of resources (time, money, brains). If we could somehow create a 99.9% functional VBScript parser for Apache, then Apache could swallow up a very large bunch of IIS users in one quick bite.

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
  35. Didja ever notice... by IGnatius+T+Foobar · · Score: 2

    Didja ever notice that the MS-controlled press always has some nice things to say about open source whenever Microsoft has a court date coming up?

    It's more than a little suspicious.

    --
    Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
  36. You have to know how to talk to clients. by Shiny+Metal+S. · · Score: 2

    Yeah but, unless you hire an 'expensive expert' you can't write off the investment in apache. Thats the problem with free software.

    This is how I talk to my clients:

    - You see? You will save 500 bucks because we're using free-as-in-beer software! Of course it is very, very difficult and normal people wouldn't even understand all the magical things which need to be done in order to set it up, but fortunately I'm a super hacker guru so this is your lucky day. My rates are only 300 bucks per hour, and this is not much for super hackers, so you'll pay much less than you'd pay for a more expensive super hacker for, say, 400 bucks per hour, so you already saved 200 bucks while we speak and you're gonna save another 50 grands in my rates netto...
    - Wait a minute! But I can have a sixpack of MCSE's for $9.95 per hour!
    - Too late! You signed the contract! SUCKER!!!

    --

    ~shiny
    WILL HACK FOR $$$

  37. Re:I agree by Brendan+Byrd · · Score: 2

    Quite frankly, the whole concept of Frontpage is a mistake. I really just have one question about it: WTF IS WRONG WITH FTP?!!? Again, yet another example of MS re-inventing the wheel.

  38. I smell horseshit in this article by cscx · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This article is filled with misinformation.

    Somehow... the numbers don't add up.

    Traditionally, IIS on Windows was the leader of the pack on static web serving, beating Apache on Linux by a factor of about 4.5 to 1, Windows (5500 req/s vs ~1200 req/s). Apache on Windows scrubbed the bottom of the graph at a measly 500 (yes, five hundred) req/s. Now, suddenly, Apache 2 for Windows is beating/matching IIS? That would effectively place it in the lead of every other web server on the market, free and commercial. Yet at the same time Apache for Linux and other Unicies is retaining "approximately the same performance." (~1200 req/s). So, what's the moral of the story here? Everyone running a unix box should throw it out, install a copy of NT or 2k and install Apache and be home free?

    Of course not. The attitude of the journalist is evidently anti-MS.

    Which would mean, if these numbers were in fact true (I don't remember reading any numbers in the article anyway), that Apache on Windows is about 4.5 times faster than it is on Linux and Unix.

    Once again, it doesn't make sense. This guy is tying two granny knots with a loop, and it ain't happenin'.

    I'd really like some information on these tests that they ran. What, did they run an ASP database call on IIS and compare it to a print "Hello, world\n"; perl script on Apache? Come on, there is obviously something fishy going on here.

    I trust this article like I trust The Register... about as far as I can throw the box it's running on (and that, my geeky friends, is not very far at all).

    1. Re:I smell horseshit in this article by johnnyb · · Score: 2

      Now, suddenly, Apache 2 for Windows is beating/matching IIS? That would effectively place it in the lead of every other web server on the market, free and commercial.

      ******

      The problem, originally, was that Apache's design was entirely process-based. That means that every request needed it's own process. On Windows, this is very, very, slow, as it has trouble switching between proceses quickly, but is very fast at switching between threads. Apache redesigned it to be threads-based (actually, you can choose threads, processes, or hybrid), and thus the performance bottleneck went away. Process-switching and thread switching are about the same amount of time on Linux boxes, so that's why the performance didn't change much.

    2. Re:I smell horseshit in this article by cscx · · Score: 2

      I understand that. But, if you look at what he says, it just doesn't correlate to the hard core benchmark data. If what he says is true, than Apache on Windows should have more than triple the performance of Apache on *nix. Cause, if it is equal to IIS, and Apache on *nix hasn't really changed, then the data still specifies that Windows based servers in this case are a ton faster than *nix web servers. If that was true no one would be running *nix anymore.

      But maybe it is true and everyone should move to Windows 200 Adv server. 8-)

    3. Re:I smell horseshit in this article by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

      I believe the tests by both articles may be accurate. The pcmag review just copied the Microsoft sponsored Mindcraft benchmark that ran on 30k worth of hardware. I have no idea what the server was in this new article on apache 2.0. I bet it probably wasn't a 30k machine because it would be too expensive to test for just a small news article. The other one was sponsored by Microsoft and Compaq and was front page.

      Basically the old test was not 1 but 4 gigabit ethernet connections with 4cpu's using an unsupported alpha Microsoft i/o bounding utility that would allow each cpu to process the i/o for each device. Under this setup Linux performed slow because only 1 cpu processed the i/o of all 4 nics. As you can imagine the requests per second were Huge and quite astonding at 5,00k/sec.

      This guy probably had a one or perhaps 2 cpu boxen with a single gigabit ethernet card which would explain the lower requests per second. Remember that the nic can be a performance bottleneck more then the web server daemon.

      Also I agree on the ASP test. I have no idea what this guy did but keep in mind its just a short article and not a scientific study or a major cover story.

    4. Re:I smell horseshit in this article by ahde · · Score: 2

      In the original benchmark you're quoting, the biggest bottleneck was linux on SMP. Linux has gotten a lot better in that respect, but on more modest hardware, Apache (and Linux) have always smoked IIS and windows. On a relatively low end system, Apache on Windows beat IIS too. Of course, nowadays a dual or quad processor webserver with a big hunk of memory isn't as uncommon as it was then. Which comes full circle to speed isn't as important as stability these days.

  39. Finally by pclinger · · Score: 2

    Finally, results from an unbiased source - not endorsed/sponsored by a linux company, or Microsoft. This is when you can truly say, "Hey, look. Apache beat IIS in a fair contest." and no one can complain otherwise.

    --
    /. editors made it impossible to link to file:///c:/con/con in my sig. Please just type it in
  40. Re:Use PHP instead by sheldon · · Score: 2

    How does PHP compare to ASP.NET?

    As far as full documentation of the language and tutorials... that's what msdn.microsoft.com is all about.

  41. .conf Files by loconet · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One question that popped up in my mind while reading the article is: why doesn't the apache team use .xml files for the configuration files like almost every other server these days? ie: weblogic,tomcat,etc..

    Not only do I find editing xml easier than .conf 's, but also to keep the mainstream masses happy... I'm sure it'll be easier for us oss developers to come up with nice gui interfaces to manage the server by reading xml files rather than parsing the .conf files.

    --
    [alk]
  42. Re:let's not get completely outlandish by shogun · · Score: 2

    There's nothing in human experience compared to which a sendmail config file could be considered simple.

    Heh love that, its going in my sig now ;]

  43. Apache doesn't run ASP.NET - EOD by Otis_INF · · Score: 2

    I'm a Microsoft-product-user, sue me, and IIS' design is IMHO ok, however if I could switch this minute, why wouldn't I? Well... I can't run an ASP.NET application on Apache. (shouldn't be that hard to implement however, the ASP.NET runtime is a separate process) So there is no WAY I can switch to apache.

    'same performance, better security'... Hot air to me, sorry. 'Same performance', I have to see that first, and 'better security'... people who have locked down their IIS webservers the way it should be and the way Unix admins do normally, don't have to worry. Sure, you have to patch the webserver sometimes. Like you have to patch other software as well. Don't kid yourself with the idea that Apache is 'total secure'. You don't have proof of that.

    --
    Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
  44. What is ZDNet trying to pull? by --daz-- · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I mean, it'd be nice if ZDNet at least TRIED to hide it's bias against MS and it's agend to ebarass them.

    For example, the comment/article about the "10 new security vulnerabilities in IIS!"

    What ZDNet fails to tell you, the obvious, is that what MS released was a "Cumulative Patch for IIS" which is all the patches released since IIS 4 was released.

    Rather than installing a Win2K server and then having to track down the dozen or so patches, you can just apply this.

    There have not been any new vulnerabilities in IIS since May 2001. Almost a year ago!

    (Note: there has been a 1 or 2 vulns. found in Index Server and one or two in SMTP, both optional components of IIS, and not related to the web-serving W3SVC portion).

    Why does ZDNet lie so flat-out like this?

  45. Are you high?? by nobodyman · · Score: 3, Informative
    Funny, I've also worked with both, and have come to the opposite conclusion.
    PHP is cryptic and slow. Just check out the stats on the shootout pages. PHP routinely gets stomped in the tests by perl, Java, Ruby and Python. Seeing as how you can write an ASP in perl, vbScript, or ECMAScript, I dare say an ASP solution would win as well.
    It integrates seemlessly with MySQL, compared to ASP-MSSQL/Access where I had to define a dsn connection with several lines of code
    Several? Try two.
    set myConnection = server.createobject("adodb.connection")
    myConnect ion.open "dsn_name"
    There are reports taht PHP runs faster than ASP, but I haven't ran my own tests.

    Sorry. ASP is a framework, PHP is a language. I seriously doubt that PHP has that much of an edge over vbscript, but if I decide to write an ASP with C#, your PHP script is *doomed*.
    The good folks at www.php.net give a full documentation of the language, as well as a tutorial. Try finding that on M$ website
    Gee, okay. Try the microsoft scripting page. Wow, full docs and tutorials.

    If you are going to migrate over to the non-microsoft side of web development, go with Ruby or Python. They are faster and more robust than PHP (and VBScript, for that matter), and are far easier on the eyes (call me crazy, I like my variables names to resemble actual words... whats wrong with you php/perl people?).
    1. Re:Are you high?? by ahde · · Score: 2

      PHP is a runtime or webserver module -- just the same as ASP. Ruby and Python are the slowest (execution) of the common interpreted languages, but they make up for it in design (more oo features, faster dev times, clarity)

      PHP is the fastest, execution wise, unless you start caching and JIT. General usage speed goes something like:
      Compiled C or whatever
      good JIT JAVA
      php
      perl
      ASP (there are only a few parser constructs to differentiate vbscript/jscript/perlscript --they aren't really different languages)
      lisp
      JSP
      python
      bad compiled JAVA

  46. Re:PHP 4.X support. (OT: Support is there) by yem · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm running Apache 2.0.35 and php 4.3.0-dev (CVS checkout from last night) right now. Flawless install. I've setup apache from source many many times and Apache 2.0.x leaves 1.3.x for dead. Very Cool.

    http://home.y3m.net/ if you want to bang on it.

    --
    No, I did not read the f***ing article!
  47. Re:10,000,000 active web sites can't be wrong..... by Moonshadow · · Score: 2

    This about the average intelligence/skill levels it takes to use a Windows/Linux box. Windows, being easier (And regrettably, less secure) is going to attract your Joe Schmoe users. Linux is a bit less user-friendly (Although the lastest versions of Mandrake are closing the gap). There are a lot more casual users than webserver admins.

    However, people who run webservers know things about computers, and security, and speed, and trivial things like that. Therefore, they make an informed decision and choose Apache.

    The Apache numbers are higher because the people who actually have computer competency know what to choose. The Windows numbers are higher because people are sheep and take whatever they're fed happily as long as it doesn't interfere with their ability to get their email and write their documents.

    It's all about audience.

  48. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  49. XML is not crap by Jules · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There's a couple of reasons. First is you don't have to write your own parser. Many fine XML parsers exist and can be plugged into just about any language. Secondly, the idea of XML is to produce well-formed, structurally correct documents. Kind of important for configuration files I think. Sure, you can still screw up the config itself with your Apache front-end program but having to worry about writing the correct format back is one less thing to program around.

  50. KLIK? by jelle · · Score: 2

    KLIK? But I don't use KDE.

    --
    --- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
  51. Raiding the treasure chest by hey! · · Score: 2

    On a recent project meeting so many requirements begain by visiting the Apache web sites and CPAN that we came up with a catch phrase for this: "time to raid the treasure chest."

    It's a bit giddy, digging through all the free and excellent software.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  52. Re:If you have img tags, 3 == 10 by pmc · · Score: 2

    10 simultaneous connections will serve only 1-3 simultaneous clients.

    It can simultaneously service 10 different IP addresses - that's what it means by clients. See Q122920 for chapter and verse.

  53. Somebody should whip up a Java application. by emil · · Score: 2

    Seriously, Oracle seems to get a lot of mileage with a single codebase for their "Universal Installer" and "Enterprise Manager" which are cross-platform Java Applets/Applications.

    Apache should take a page from this book and silence this UI debate forever.

    The only problem is that Apache is then condemned to including a JRE with their distribution forever, just like Oracle.

    Or maybe we should just convince Oracle to do it for us?

  54. Re:Pre v2.0 wasn't POSIX compliant? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

    POSIX threads. Say it with me: POSIX threads.

    --
    Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  55. Re:If Open Source is Really About Choice.... by Fweeky · · Score: 2
    > This kind of troglodytic ignorance of the value of a good interface is all too typical.

    Since when is "write one and submit it" classed as ignoance? I understand the problem domain, I know how a good interface can improve matters. it just so happens the text file + vim + docs is a pretty optimal solution for me.

    > Why shouldn't this stuff be easy to use?

    Apache's config is very user friendly for it's target demographic. Concidering how flexible and complex Apache is, it's remarkably simple to set up.

    > Why should soneone need to know how to construct regular expressions in order to run a web server?

    They don't. If they want to do pattern matching to transform URI's or whatever, though, regexp is the only way to go. If you can think of a more user friendly way of matching arbitary strings, then quick! patent it!

    > Why maintain the quarter-century old text-based UNIX interface as some kind of rite of passage that the Chosen Ones use to ward off the Heathen?

    I'll be impressed if you can come up with a non-cluttered, stable, secure, lightweight config tool that can match even the standard Apache config, never mind the power of being able to bring any text processing language to bear on any problem.

    > If open source is really about giving people choices, then give them more than one option.

    Your choices:
    • Write your own. If you know so much about interface design, put it to use, even if you just come up with an interface design paper.
    • Find one of the many currently available interfaces; a quick freshmeat search finds Comanche, Mohawk and TkApache.
    • Buy Covalent, which is Apache + GUI + support.

    I think that's plenty of choice, personally.
  56. Bad for Linux by wytcld · · Score: 2
    On Unix, don't expect a big performance boost with the new release. In tests of Apache 2.0 vs. Apache 1.3.24 running on Red Hat Inc.'s Red Hat Linux 7.2, performance was nearly identical (though still very good). However, platforms such as Solaris and AIX, where a process switch is relatively slower than it is on Linux, will benefit much more from Apache 2.0's hybrid process/thread design.

    So because Linux was already better tuned as an OS for Web serving, the new Apache, which compensates for less capable OS's such as Solaris, AIX and Windows, takes away performance advantage of Linux. This will result in a fragmenting of the Web OS market, and less Linux innovation, hindering the world economy. Do the Apache developers have no shame?

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
  57. Comanche! by Lxy · · Score: 2

    Comanche anyone? I remember using this tool to configure my Apache boxen long ago. I since got used to editing .conf files in vi. Still, the article makes mention that there's no GUI. I beg to differ! I don't know if it supports Apache 2.0 yet, but there's a windows binary for 1.3. Just wait, and the GUI will come.

    --

    There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
    :wq
  58. Re:let's not get completely outlandish by dublin · · Score: 2

    There's nothing in human experience compared to which a sendmail config file could be considered simple.

    You've not been around long enough to have tried uucp, I can tell. I've mostly stopped having bad dreams that begin "tip cua0", and involve serial breakout boxes... ;-)

    --
    "The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last ./ post
  59. Re:Corporations *DO* embrace OSS (some of them) by graveyhead · · Score: 2

    Hmm. Big blue? :-)

    The only problem I see with your point is this: how, exactly does management *know* they will be able to get support for your products in the future? If I'm right, and you are talking about big blue, you are correct to an extent. Any other company, however, could fold tomorrow. Where does the ex-customer go for support in that case? Although it wouldn't come "straight from the horses mouth", popular OSS projects will continue to be supported potentially even after the original author or development group is long gone.

    Case in point, Loki developed a neat audio API called "OpenAL". Although they are now defunct, the API lives on, and you could pay me to support your OpenAL based project. The project and support for it will continue to remain alive as long as it remains useful.

    --
    std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
  60. Re:Who cares? by nitehorse · · Score: 2

    Well, like the other guy pointed out, there IS MacOS X.

    However, you really shouldn't judge it until you do try it out on the latest hardware. The Titanium PowerBook is expensive, yes, but it's also a perfect OS X machine.

    (says the owner of an iBook and an iMac LCD edition. the iMac is perfectly usable. the iBook... trust me, I understand your concerns.)

    -clee

  61. Accountingdot... by alexhmit01 · · Score: 2

    Most of my accounting is in Quickbooks and somewhat self learned. There are two parts to my comment, which I believe is what confused you.

    If you buy software, you acquire assets. That's fine on the balance sheet, cash goes down, assets go up. This is neat in that it doesn't show a cost, but bad in that you lost cash. Companies can show profits each quarter and go bankrupt, or lose money each quarter and do fine. All that really matters is the cash. The rest of that statement is for figuring out what is going on. The depreciation issue is mostly a tax issue. If I spend $20k on software licenses that I need to depreciate over 5 years, I lose $4k in assets each year and get to reduce them from my tax burden. This is fine, except that the $20k is gone now, but I pay taxes on it. This can create a situation where a company is paying taxes on cash that is gone, and if you don't have the cash for the tax bill... again, cash is king. Capital expenditures are bad from a cash and tax perspective, they aren't fundamentally evil. :)

    The reason you that you mess with these issues is a desire to minimize your tax burden. Getting a tax writeoff in the same year that you spent the money isn't dot-com accounting, its trying to minimize the tax burden.

    The whole asset accounting is relatively worthless. It makes sense in certain industrial applications where the assets are machinery where there REALLY IS a market for second-hand equipment (unlike computers that lose 50% when you drive them off the lot), or land which doesn't depreciate, even though you write off the building over 10 years.

    Keep in mind with software licenses, you can't really sell them, so you make your balance sheets look artificial when you show these terrific assets...

    Alex

    1. Re:Accountingdot... by um...+Lucas · · Score: 2

      I guess we come from 2 different schools of thought on this one...

      If you buy software, you acquire assets. That's fine on the balance sheet, cash goes down, assets go up. This is neat in that it doesn't show a cost, but bad in that you lost cash.

      Cash is not the all powerful thing... IF you have the extra cash, it's perfectly reasonable to use it for capital investments, which is what acquiring assets is.

      It's my sense from all that, that your primary goal is to pay as little taxes as possible... And hoard as much cash as possible at the same time. I don't think that's appropriate for most businesses.

      Spend the cash, you end up with assets on your balance sheet which will look good if you need to solicit credit or investment to grow your business. If all your company has to show for anything is a fat bank balance, no one will think that you have much staying power, and hence will be much more wary of giving out money in one form or another.

      And if you're concerned with taxes, then the depreciation expense could be seen as a "bonus", in that it's (in your theory), $4000 a year more business you can do without having to pay tax on... Short term vs. Long Term, i guess... If you don't feel comfortable having you cash tied up in licenses, and you arent' using them, you can always turn around and sell them down the line (see below).

      Keep in mind with software licenses, you can't really sell them, so you make your balance sheets look artificial when you show these terrific assets...

      i've had no problems selling software licenses across the years... If i don't use a particular program, or any program which ownership of that program is mandatory (upgrades and/or competitive upgrades), i have found absolutely no issue i selling a license to someone who wants it. There hasn't seemed to have been any clauses against it in any of the EULA's i've read.

      We just differ... I've worked for a company for instance in the past that needed to turn over it's balance sheets to a potential client, so that they could determine if we'd have the staying power to support a project we were bidding on...

      It's all 2 schools of thought. I'm sure if we asked the rest of slashdot we'd get 250,000 more schools of thought to add to the pool...

      :-)

    2. Re:Accountingdot... by ahde · · Score: 2

      Right.

      Accounting is the business of obfuscation and there are certain known phraseologies that are generally accepted. Any idiot with a calculator can balance books. Its making them look balanced when their not that makes accounting.

      And of course there's the buddy system where certain accounting companies are "in" with the IRS and are almost never audited. The same goes for financials. They are assumed to be competent and low risk. Which is why everyone is dropping Arthur Anderson. It's not that they don't think they can do the job, it's that they know they are much more likely to get audited, because they are no longer in with them, to mangle a pronoun.

      Of course part of an accountant's reputation is build on honesty, but a larger part is made on watertight obfuscation.

    3. Re:Accountingdot... by ahde · · Score: 2

      If a company spent $20,000 on software licenses that depreciates in value over 5 years, they pay taxes on a portion of it. If they use free software and pay $20,000 on consulting fees, they don't pay taxes on a penny of it. Is that clear enough?

  62. Re:If Open Source is Really About Choice.... by Fweeky · · Score: 2

    > I'm just a bit tired of the cultish "don't like it? build your own" thread that seems to permeate much of the open source community

    That is the way it works. The fact of the matter is that most people with the skills to actually develop such an interface don't have that particular itch to scratch.

    > I'm also disappointed by the lack of original ideas, as reflected in the EMACS vs VI and Apache vs IIS wars

    Ah, well, original ideas are few and far between everywhere in computing, not just open source. And a lot of those new ideas are in techy stuff most people couldn't care less about, and even most of THOSE aren't particularly new, just nobody bothered implimenting them :)

    Apache used to have a pure prefork scheme for handling requests. Now it's a mix and match with various schemes, including one that allows seperate Apache processes to run as the user id of whoever owns a particular virtual host ([sound of 100,000 PHP weenies wetting their pants]). Does that count as an original idea? Probably not, but that's the sort of level that impresses most Apache users.

    > Surely, it is possible that someone, someday, might build a better editor that either EMACS or vi

    Sure. JEdit, NEdit, etc. I still prefer vim, but for a lot of people they would count, no?

    Anyway, Emacs isn't an editor, it's a LISP interpreter with a bundled editor :)

    > and surely it is possible that neither Apache or IIS represent the ultimate in web server technology.

    There are plenty of alternatives (Roxen, thttpd, Jigsaw, Webrick, etc), and IIS and Apache are obviously still making big advances in their own scheme of things.

    > Why can't the open source community generate sone truly innovative, easy to use, ideas

    You might ask the same of any development community (websites, architecture, car design, commercial software vendors, etc). Finding one or the other may be fairly easy, finding both (aside from being doubly subjective) may prove more difficult. And finding one that's truely new will probably cut that down even more :)

    > instead of rewriting the same old stuff

    This is what humans are about. Get an idea, mix it about with other ideas, occasionally come up with a new idea. Repeat.

    It just happens that the open source side of things tends to be from the perspective of a programmer, so..

    > and castigating as "not terribly bright outsiders" those with the temerity to suggest that Computers Are Supposed To Be East To Use??

    What's easy to use for you may not be easy to use for a programmer. What's easy for a sysadmin may not be easy for you either. Well, that's where most open source is targetted; if you dislike it, find something that is aimed at you, alter other software (or pay someone to do it) to make it more like what you want, or try commercial software which by and large is aimed at you.

    Certainly, getting upset over the interface for various open source stuff not meeting your expectations won't get you very far unless you can make suggestions on how to change them in a way everyone can live with.

  63. (-1, Offtopic) by cjpez · · Score: 2
    "It's part of our three pronged attack; subliminal, liminal, and superliminal" -- L.T. Smash

    Lisa: Superliminal?
    L.T. Smash: I'll show you. (opens window) HEY YOU! JOIN THE NAVY!
    Carl: Uh, yeah, alright.
    Lenny: I'm in!

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

  64. No benchmarks? by cpeterso · · Score: 3, Informative

    Did you read the entire article? There was a link near the end that said "Click here for the test results" and it pointed directly to some nice graphs.

  65. VBScript? by cpeterso · · Score: 2

    If we could somehow create a 99.9% functional VBScript parser for Apache, then Apache could swallow up a very large bunch of IIS users in one quick bite.


    If someone wrote a GPL'd VBScript interpreter, I wonder what Microsoft would do. That would be a huge affront to IIS lock-in and a big win for Apache! Perhaps Microsoft has some VBScript patent to protect their proprietary language..?

  66. Re:If Open Source is Really About Choice.... by ahde · · Score: 2

    here's an algorithm for converting a config file to a gui:

    Make the option name a label.
    Enter the option value in a field.
    Have a shiny red button next to it labelled "help" that brings up the comments in the config file directly above it.
    Have another button (this one blue) at the bottom labelled "done."