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Spanish Province Dist-Upgrades
Johnny Mnemonic writes "The Spanish province of Extremadura has adopted Linux for the official OS of schools and offices, largely because of price. Simply, they don't have enough money for other OSes, and they promise to handle the rollout more gracefully than a similar Linux initiative in Mexico. According to Wired, this is the first time a European school system has switched to Linux."
It's not the Free as in speech aspects of the technology that's attracted them. It's the Free Beer loving software pirate that lives within deep within the Spanish psyche that's driven them to OSS.
Yo ho! Yo ho! A pirate's life for me!
ugh, pdf format sucks. i'm not even going to consider looking at it until you get it in an open format like PostScript. jeez, get a clue.
More power to them!
(I don't know Spanish, but Babelfish is my friend and really....more power to them)
The Spanish province of Extremadura has[...]
Actually, Extremadura is an autonomous community (formerly a region under the older division of the country). It's composed of TWO provinces: Cáceres and Badajoz.
There. Mod me down as redundant if you will.
"Trust me - I know what I'm doing."
- Sledge Hammer
Microsoft supporters usually cite "migration costs" or "training costs", or other shortsighted reasons why people should not switch to Linux.
This is shortsighted because corporations and organisations come and go -> If switching costs is the only thing in favor of Windows, then it will lose slowly, but steadily.
Of course, the massive Windows-exodus will not start before CodeWeavers and Transgaming make Linux "Windows compatible", but I see them doing exactly this in the next 2 years.
Then computer-makers will start putting Windows-compatible-but-cheaper-than-Windows Linux on their boxes.
Who cares???
The government has burned 80,000 CDs with the Debian Linux operating system and software ranging from text editors to an Internet browser. The disks will be sent to the area's 670 schools and distributed to the public through newspaper inserts.
1- One could send millions of CDs, containing an idiot proof linux system, to every computer owners and in computer stores. Add on it a free access to the internet for X months with a random isp, and configure it to be the easiest to use as you can.
2- ???
3- profit.
It would make Linux SO popular!
It's too bad mostly schools/governments too poor to afford Windows crap are the only one's switching to Linux. I wish more schools would do it so they could spend more money on kids and higher teacher's salaries instead of helping Gates pay for his fricking 10000 sq/ft house. I'm sick of my tax dollars being squandered on these fat cat bastards.
PDF is just as open if not more so than Postscript, and there are more and better viewers available for it. Time to get your head out of the early nineties.
This brings up the point of cost. Sysadmins in Spain that are bilingual will probably charge a slightly higher fee than those that speak only Spanish. In my experiences, getting Linux running properly requires mucking about in .conf files and code and what not, whereas an MS box will essentially set itself with only the occasional button to press or box to check. I think the end result will be lower cost savings over other alternative OS's than previously predicted, although it will definitely still save them a significant amount of money over an MS "solution".
Linux is free to acquire, but it is certainly not free in terms of support costs, training, finding compatibility solutions (when someone in the windoze world sends you that office document), etc.
None of this is insurmountable, but much of it is often overlooked.
JWZ himself said it best: linux is only free if your time has no value.
Now stand back and think about that. So true. Open Source is still the way to go, but don't forget the cost of Open Source in your financial rollups.
Come on moderators, lighten up! It's obvious a lot of work went into making this, and it's just as deserving of a "Funny" moderation as any of the "Micro$$oft sux0rs!! Linux rulez!!" garbage that gets routinely modded to +5. While it's technically offtopic, it's at least amusing.
Maintaining XP is much much worse... especially its OEM stripped mode when you have only one big C drive and a backup CD that allow you to only recreate that big C drive...
Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition
In any discipline that invloves multiple nationalities, a single language is generally chosen as the common language (and yes, it is usually English). It makes more sense for sysadmins in Spain, France, Japan, etc to learn English than for Programmers to learn Spanish, French, Japanese etc.
As for bilingual sysadmins, my bet is its tough to get a job as a sysadmin in any country if you can't read English.
Takahashi Rumiko made beats! DON, taku, DON, taku. . .
Sheesh.
But if you insist: here it is . Somebody else with real bandwidth grab this; this is one of our research group computers and I'll be truly smitten by my advisor if it gets slashdotted.
Read Bujold. Free (as in
Just write smaller. Sheesh, some people have to be told everything.
[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.
People want one big C drive...
Believe me.
Personally my C drive isn't all that big, but I never got any complaints.
Darn, I wish someone had told them about FreeBSD. It's free(er) than *linux and more stable and higher performance and has a better centralized source code control system and a longer history in academia.
This isn't necessarily a good thing.
Sure, it may seem like a good thing now, but you just wait five years, when suddenly all of the good Linux jobs will be taken by those darned Spanish!
I can feel my sanity, beyond my reach and slipping...
I remember back when wired had some stories about the innovative change which Mexico was trying to make, in most schools. To bring Linux to the forefront and allow all school children to have access to a computer running Linux. What happened? After poop management, little to no training at the particular schools, and very little support from the actual implementors, most computers now are running win95 or a derivative there of.
This, on paper, seems like a great idea, however to actually pull it off it is going to be very difficult, and there needs to be some strong support from the very top people, if not, this move will suffer the same faith which it had in Mexico. Buena suerte mis amigos. dam()
Useless sig.
I think it's getting old hanging around here, being told to go read Wired or WSJ or CNN. I think I'll skip the middleboy and stay with the real news sources for a change.
These kids have little enough time as is with a computer, the cost of an less-than-stable OS far outweighs the cost of training the computer teachers in Linux. Also, most computer teachers I know would train themselves in their spare time.
Note also that this province is *bragging* about their 15:1 computer-to-kid ratio. These student don't have much time on their computers, and if they're anything like the kids I know, they have an intense desire to poke and prod just about everything. Not a good combination with an OS that gives a page fault in Kernel32.dll at a sneeze. I know I would find that discouraging. In fact I did, that's why I run debian myself!
Websurfing done right! - http://www.stumbleupon.com
You are correct about that, and it's good to hear someone say it. However, what i find lacking is simple installation tools. People can install Wazoo messenger or Didlybob app, whatever they find/need/want, in windows, with a wizard. Give linux a good wizard install, to $user_account or $all_user_accounts, using a semi-root account as needed, something that can't really harm the system but change user accounts perhaps. Do that and I'll be _happy_.
Oh yeah, and make KDE faster. with an mp3 player, a movie player, a web browser, an office suite, an IM app, and a file manager, Linux will have itself a viable user operating system. IMO, XMMS, XINE, MOZ etc, OO/abi/Kword, Gaim will handle those. But someone suggest to me a good file manager (I love MC but it isn't quite what i want?)...
ok i'm rambling now. I think we are just about there. Users will come, commercial applications will follow. Suggestions?
Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
Win2k and XP rarely crash. I run 2K..the only time I reboot is when I either apply patches (every couple months), or am replacing faulty hardware.
Actually my record with crashing has been far worse using KDE or GNOME.
-
I learned computers using DOS. I then moved on to Win 3.1. Then to Win95. I learned as I went. Someone could learn Linux or any other Unix-like OS the same way. Start with the basics and move on to the more complicated stuff.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
One of the main problems I have run into with using Linux on various computers is figuring out how to get everything set up for the machine's various hardware quirks.
One of the main advantages of doing this in a school is that schools tend to have computers that were all ordered in one massive batch so that every classroom , office, etc, has the same machines.
It should thus be easy for a particular site to customize their own in-house distro to install easily on all their computers.
A great further advantage in using Linux in schools: More people are going to become familiar with it... and be more likely to set it up at home, etc... reducing the dependency on other, less desirable systems *coughWINDOWScough*.
Odd timing, given that Debian 3.0 (Woody) is due to be released (fingers crossed) on the 1st May.
Have they burnt their own (nearly)3.0 or gone back to the old 2.2?
Of course the neat thing about Debian is that it is possible to create your own pre-3.0 CD, and then it's a one-liner to upgrade to the full release when it appears. However I suspect they've 'played safe' and gone with the old (released in 2000) version.
a) It was simple to install
b) It was all there was (money/OS choice)
and
c) Everyone was using it.
Can you think of a better way to mould a linux distro into these features? Easy! Give a distro to an entire country and learn as you go. After a while you get:
a) Less installation problems (install something on 1/2 million machines and you find the bugs)
b) Countries like this can't afford M$ licence prices (then again, who can?)
and
c) A definition of 'popular' is Suited to or within the means of ordinary people: popular prices. (Dictionary.com)
No reason to put people down for attempting to make the best out of a situation.
You have a sick, twisted mind. Please subscribe me to your newsletter.
The other day, the NY Times had an article about how Microsoft wanted to help out Mexico get online. I wonder if this had anything to do with it.
Here is a link, (sorry but there is a registration)X I.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/17/technology/17ME
I'm no stranger to shitty Mexican brick weed. Where do I sign up?
for the phrase "domino effect" to change completely from a powerfully negative meaning to a positive one.
-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
>--
>Join the Great Slashdot Blackout April 21-27
"I hope they've considered all of the (Score:3, Insightful)
by Slash Veteran (slashvet@hotmail.com) on Sunday April 21, @10:13PM (#3385013)"
So you've given up, then?
Actually, the vast majority of pirates were English-- Henry Morgan, Captain Kidd, Blackbeard (Edward Teach), Black Bart (Bartholemew Roberts), Edward England, Henry Every, etc. Just about all the famous ones. Spain mostly got screwed by the pirates when they were privateers (privateering was the practice of looting ships of an enemy country while at war with them. You got a special commision from the king and plundered away. This was a very cheap way to increase a countries standing navy). Of course, when the warring ended, the privateers had nowhere to go (since there were no unemployment benefits for the equivelant of dot-commers those days) and turned pirate, screwing everybody! Most notably, the East India Company (the closest thing to Microsoft back then). But the public ate it up, since in those days (late 1600's), 75% of Britian's national income went to barely 20% of the population.
And since I'm now miles off topic (sniff, is that my karma burning?) without a gps or even an astrolabe, I'll also mention that there are no recorded incidents of pirates making anyone walk the plank. Apparently it was made up by storytellers.
Oh well, just some useless information that might be interesting...
c-hack.com |
The decission was not because the do not have money. extremadura is full of old people (old fascist majority) without any vision for the future.
switched to open source, said Luis Millán Vázquez de Miguel
My name is Luis Millán Vázquez de Miguel. I have slept with over a thousand women.
My name is Luis Millán Vázquez de Miguel. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
So in the lack of proper funding, it turned out that MS Windows was a superior choice? Hmm... that's about as convincing an argument against Linux as I can find.
The costs of diverse and incompatible documents (e.g. different versions of MS-Office) is still high even if you're in a shop where the management buys into single platform (e.g. All-Shall-Be-Microsoft) myth. Take MS-Word, the new versions usually have difficulty with the next most recent version until the patch / upgrade is installed. It often takes a bit of gymnastics to make the conversion successfully especially if you're an early adopter. Powerpoint is even worse. Quite often only one or two presentations will fit on a 3.5" floppy, so that means bringing two or three floppies to conferencs to make sure I can use the conference locale's version of PowerPoint.
Here comes the cost: Imagine nearly everyone in a 120 person organization learning that the hard way, either for their own work or by trying to help some one else. The actual salary is often only 50% of what the employer has to shell out per employee.
It gets more expensive with e-mail attachements. It used to be whenever I got an MS-Office document as an attachment, it was a virus from a stranger. Everyone I actually knew, back then, used file sharing. Now that most shops don't have file sharing, these must be sorted by hand, at least in a MS-Windows environment.
And that's just the cost now. 3 or 4 years from now you have the added issue of trying to identify and read the old formats. So in reality the interoperability part the oft-cited cost benefit of running all MS products hasn't been there.
Two solutions: use more generic file formats (e.g. RTF and Docbook) and stable file sharing that support clients on multiple platforms (e.g. Netware or OpenAFS, to pick two). Operating costs and efficientcy costs are always going to be with any software. The trick is to minimize the work needed and to concentrate any extra effort on as few as possible.Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Down
19. Do many eyes make all bugs shallow, or do too many cooks spoil the broth?
63. Apple stole all their ideas from this research group.
I sincerely apologise for any inconvenience.
-S.Trooper
Appears that these guys actually have their own Linux distribution called Linex. I think this is actually the distribution that will be distributed to schools etc. I expect it is based on Debian.
If you can read Spanish, there's more discussion about this on the Spanish version of Slashdot, Barrapunto And here's the Extramadura LUG.
It's great they have their "own" version of Linux - people are more likely to use it because they are proud of their region. Of course because 95% of people are clueless when it comes to computers, they will probably think that it has been invented there, just as many people believe Bill Gates invented "Windows". But in this case it's a good thing if people use it out of pride and it boosts uptake of Linux.
By the way, Extramadura is I believe the poorest region of Europe, not just Spain. But they have great weather, wine and food there, and the people really know how to have a good time (which could be why it's one of the poorest regions...)
Extremadura, originally Extrema y Dura, Extreme and Hard.
Gee, I'm surprised. Miguel did a shitty job at something? Thats never happened before!
Hi,
I can see from the article on mexico, and from my own experience trying to propose a free software alternative to a non profit organisation, that the problem of adopting a completely new or different operating system is not just about the price of the software. So my question to any experts out there is : how do you propose people get this going in other provinces - from getting the proposal out(I live in barcelona - I bet the local catalan linux translation group would help...), lobbying for it, getting political support, and getting the smarts and the time for people to install it, and from there to the point where everyone is actually happily using it and benefiting from it?
If it can be done, it's probably a great benefit, but I can see how it's just a waste of money if it's not done right, and especially, if it's just not the right time or place to do it...
Ale
I am astonished about the many postings which consider the problems and negative consequences of that project. I see only positive results, but your mileage may vary.
I think, there is a strong subconscious fear among the geeks favouring OpenSource now that their own income is at stake in the near future. Just think about the many Linux cracks from Spain in the years to come or the Microsoft guys seeking new jobs in the Linux market
But that's too late now, the natural development cannot be stopped. A lot of problems teach a lot - we all know that by experience. With Linux the rich countries have finally managed to export a free product, which helps the third world to get profound technical education and in the long run become independant from the monopolies of the northern hemisphere.
No longer paying pennies for bananas and copper while charging dollars for $oftware and mu$ic. Great! The age of Aquarius is really happening after all. I raise my glass to the dying age of economic slavery - it's nice that you bite the carpet finally!
And interestingly the leading Linux maintainer, Macello, is of Mexican origin. Can you see the signs on the wall? Freedom through free software is no longer freedom for Americans, no - on the contrary - it's freedom from American software!
They don't explain how Linux is saving them money, because the PC's that they are using would already have Windows installed.
In Spain, like most countries, it's not actually possible to buy a PC without Windows... well it is but it costs more with Linux preinstalled and as this is about saving costs...
Possibly, the cost saving is due to additional software ?
Is there any Linux group out there that is trying to find out what these people did and how other educators might be able to learn from it? Education seems like an enviroment where Linux has a real chance since schools are on a budget and reletively independent. I think that people should focus on gathering information on this to help other educators do the same rather than bitch and complain about win vs. linux.
From the linex.org page: (free translation)
"Be legal.. copy LinEx.. and pass it to your friends. [..} Once you shared Linex with all your friends, your CD could be used by persons and colectives from around the world, (specially by Spanish spoken country)[..]"
They are collecting adresses of NGO to send used CD's. Remember, in some countries either 1$ for a CD is expensive..
Windows is not exactly trouble free or completely user-friendly, even for fairly advanced users. Training is needed no matter what. Eliminate the license fees, and you can invest more in training. Or hardware...
Nearly true.
PDF has DRM built in. PS doesn't.
From the article:
...Largely bypassed by the industrial revolution,...
Sure sounds like they're ready for Debian!!! It's been largely bypassed by the 2.4 kernel, XFree 4, KDE 3, Mozilla 0.9 etc etc etc
I live in Spain and I can certainly say that's not true. In fact, when you buy a computer you get it without operating system unless you buy one. Some shops even pre-install Linux for free (for instance. PCBox.
I have recently bought a new computer and of course I got it without operating system. I didn't need to tell the vendor I didn't want an operating system: he asked me if I wanted Windows (paying 120EUR, of course) and I said I din't. No more questions.
Yep, it's true.
Computer-related translations to Spanish are usually REALLY BAD. Specially those ones that are made in Mexico or South America. You can not pay the same guy to translate John Grisham and Donald E. Knuth.
I'm Spanish (although Spanish is not my main language, but Catalan) and I tend to buy the books in English. The only exception is when the translator is Luís Joyanes Aguilar, a really good Computer Science professor.
If it's a real tech problem you can solve it using ssh shell and motely fixing what is wrong, asuming the support people are talented. If it's a client problem thing unrelated to you (can read friends email), then it's a PR thing. You answer because you care about your ignorant customer, but it's not really your fault, nor Windows nor Linux.
unfinished: (adj.)
...not only do you have the licence costs to think about, you have the added costs of the hardware upgrades needed to support such slow and bloated OSes. With Linux, you get speed and stability, with Windows you have to pick one.
Save all the bullshit, just use Linux.
Windows was viable on the desktop. Then they changed the license.
I no longer accept that Windows is viable on the desktop. Nor will any system be where you must give someone else the right to "add, remove, alter, or delete" any files that they choose without either asking your consent, or even notifying you.
Sorry.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Hi, in Peru we have a law project for implementing ONLY free software in all goverment entities ;) want details?? go http://www.gnu.org.pe/ (sorry, is only in spanish)
Greetings
- Slayer_X
http://www.slayerx.org/
Lima
Right like some Jordi Pujol spending bazillions of pesetas to see Ms Office translated into catalan just to see how Microsoft asked for a new amount of bazillions of pesetas when next Office version released if he wanted to see it translated too?
The way to go to the politicians is and always has been playing their own game (the other alternative, civil armored revolt I think its a bit out of question here). Do you want linux in Catalonia? You catalonians have probably the easiest position: just convince old Yoda how catalanistic will be having your own 100% catalanized OS (since its open source is nothing but a question of money... at most!) in an even cheap and well attached way (no company can make you seem like a fool like M$ in the past). Even more: tell him that since the "opressive central government at Madrid" signed with Microsoft any catalonian by that name has to be against it, so Linux is the only truly patriotical solution.
There, you have it.
PS: this may, or may not, have been published by the disinformation office at the CIA.
Marcello Tossatti? Are you sure a guy whose name is Marcello and his surname is Tossatti can be mexican by family origin?
(if he were Marcello Tzultxapaltepocl, well, I'd think about it, but that's not the case).
I bet Italian, thanks (while it's possible some generations in the middle are in fact mexican... once again, if some south american ancestors they will be more probably from Argentina -more italians, than from Mexico)
I'm not sure what most European schools use as their OS's but I suppose it would be some version of Windows. Here in Switzerland, although there is a techie elite that is very comfortable with Linux and OSS, it's the case that most people and companies are MS users and have this unfounded feeling that it is the "superior" solution and scoff at suggestions that OSS will bring them anything. the thing is that Switzerland is on the whole a very rich country where the average wage is about $3500/month for the whole country and so most customers (as well as schools) are not inconvenienced by high MS software licences. MS spends a lot of propaganda PR money here to make sure that it stays that way (Product rollouts TV adds etc). The only change that I have noticed is that almost all ISP's now use Linux and the two leading Tech Universities in Zürich and Lausanne have stopped their creep to Windows and have started moving back to a majority of Unix systems, since this is where the most room for development and experimentation is.
This will probably have an impact on the market sooner or later as most job ads for developers, managers etc require that the students graduated at one of these two Unis.
I wonder if they want some voluteeers to help them out?
Sounds like a worthy cause. Maybe I'll visit there on my next holiday and help them out.
Do they have a website?
Are they in touch with the rest of the Linux world?
6 de Marzo de 2002, Un dia Trascendental para la Historia del Software en el Peru
Forum of the Project of Law 1609 on Uso de Software Libre in the Organizations You publish of the Peruvian State
The Congress of the Republica of Peru fu & eacute the scene, once again, of one of the important events but for the Peruvians, the attendance of p & uacuteblico pleasingly surpassed the espectativas of the tie people to the project. The interest on the subject put in manifesto when filling the hall Raul Porras Barrenechea of the Congress him Republic, to the point that it had to qualify mesanine of the third floor, people continued arriving even though the forum empezo with a little from delay.
One of ours first pleasing surprises fué without a doubt to listen to the words of Mr. President of the Congress Carlos Ferrero who nonsingle showed interest in the subject, but that demostro to know it and I do not doubt in showing that it was an alternative that without a doubt provocaria an intense debate in the Plenary session.
Immediately afterwards the words of congressmen Gloria Helfer and Pedro Morales were for showing the situation of lack of means in which this submerged our Country, with an emphasis in which the people are few who have access to the technology. He is asi as we see the Inter & eacutes that the subject in the congress has waked up, since to his turn they respectively touched to the subject from the optica of education and defense of the consumer, commissions that direct at the moment.
The exhibition of the Dr Edgar Villanueva presented/displayed the project and located to the assistants in the Peruvian computer science reality where the illegality of Software predominates, thus seeing in the project a viable alternative nonsingle the problems of licensing, but deficit of knowledge of tecnologias of end to the at the moment single being Users of Propietary software and erroneamente to adopt the supposed advantages of & eacuteste like estandar of the computer science industry.
Enrique Chaparro, Consultant the International - GNU, mostro a universal reality of free software. " free software is not free, this is single bonus pack, free software is safe, based on true standards, of high quality and of an impressive versatility, this is the reason for which many many companies that do not have ningun economic problem prefer it, being single cost one but of the advantages that offers ", it expressed.
To his turn the Dean of the Faculty of Industrial Ingenieria and Systems gives the National University of Ingenieria, emphasized the paper of the universities as centers of professional formation and recognized that the way of the knowledge to the one of users of the knowledge has been turned aside, emphasized the support of his institution to the project.
The INEI also was present in the day indicating precise that they estan working in a plan of implementation of free software in the state organizations, because they recognize that it is an important subject.
Finally, Jesus Marquina closed the exhibitions being thankful the concurrence and doing a brief mention to that this project this being supported of independent way by people and organizations, reason why solicitd that the state takes greater interest and him of the corresponding support.
The ceremony closed with words of gratefulness of congressman Edgar Villanueva and thus a page was written in the history of software in Peru.
Maybe then you should go to http://www.cat-linux.com and join the mailing list. They are probably looking for voluntiers to translate or help with Linux.
Linux *does* do something cool and amazing: it lets users install it free of cost, and without any licensing hassles.
Socialism vs. Marxism, wrapped up in a slice of comedy (and with a guest appearance of monarchy!)
mmm... political debate...
In post-9/11 America, the CIA interrogates YOU!
As far as it goes, the people promoting linux on schools are independent individuals as well as small companies. Eventhough the numbers on savings have been showd to politicians, schools principals, etc, they have not commited to change the computer platform in schools, due to lack of trained people to do so, but most of all because Mexico's president Vicente Fox has signed contracts with Bill Gate to provide millions of licenses of windows to Mexico's computers in government and school. Nobody can fight this resolution when our senate is always looking for the money to come into their pockets and not into public spending and savings.
Or was it Brazilian?