Slashdot Mirror
EULAs More Difficult to Read than Tax Forms
krugdm writes: "Mark Hochhauser has an article over at CNet where he talks about the readability of the legalese used in EULAs and what motivates people to just 'Click to Accept' without reading a word of the agreement. He actually did a readability study where he determined that most EULAs are more difficult to read than a 1040."
but noone reads them anyway, so who really cares?
hrrm.
Isn't the new wording on the 1040 as follows?
1: How much did you make last year? _____
Instructions: Send amount listed on line 1 to IRS.
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
OK, this is going to be said a -lot-, but hasn't this topic popped up before around here? [On another note, does it -really- surprise anyone? After all, there is -far- less motivation for the average software company to make EULAs readable than there is for the IRS to make its tax forms readable]
-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"
This same article was linked to from an article about KaZaa a week or two ago.
-- skantman
The 1040 is not as bad as I think it once was, so maybe this just means that the IRS has done a good job, not that EULAs are that bad. Speaking for myself, I've never felt like they were totally unreadable, and I usually do read them before clicking.
BTW, IANAL.
Uninstalling Ad-aware? There is the theory of the mobius.....
Meow meow meow meow, meow meow meow meow...
What they want you to know, they flood you with thought, TV ads, radio ads, banner ads, and big popup windows... what the DONT want you to know they hide inside the shell of legal Jargon that makes up the License Agreement.
- Tempestdata
Do I get extra points if I link to the Slashdot article that talked about this before?
I couldn't tell if you were experimenting with poor-man's cryogenics or looking for the orange sherbet.
Makes you wonder why the IRS makes its forms generally unreadable...
Then again, it's probably because the tax code is so complicated.
This guy really misses the point. I don't have a problem with this theory if they're writing for other lawyers. But if they're writing for kids online, it makes no sense to have a 3,000-word policy written at a college-reading level.
The reality is, this stuff is written for other lawyers. Why? Because when there is a disagreement, lawyers and judges (higher up lawyers) will be making arguments/decisions pertaining to the confilict.
A EULA that says "Do you promise not to give this game to all your friends?" just won't do.
It's not the lawyers fault as much as it's the fault of, as the interviewer put it, the "litigious culture".
A modern day witchhunt.
Now, if the tax code (the laws themselves) were easier to understand than a standard EULA, then this would be news. :)
Method of processing duck feet
Don't even bother with the EULAs. Get a young person ( < 18 ) to install all your software for you. You don't agree to the EULA, and they can't be legally bound. Everybody wins!
The_Shadows[LTH], out.
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/18/124920 7
The 1040 in question was the 1040 EZ, which you can see here: http://www.cedar.buffalo.edu/NABR/1040EZx2.gif. This form has 17 fields to fill out (not counting name and address and a couple other gimmies). An EULA tries to cover the gamut of legal possibilities. This little analysis is ignorant. An EULA is always going to be somewhat complex. The key to a usable EULA (which the issuer doesn't want, btw) is using layman's terms.
Brant
Argle. Bargle.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
The IRS wants you to understand the 1040 and to fill it out correctly. Most companies don't want or don't expect you to read the EULA, and it'll stay like that as long as we let them get away with writing outrageous EULAs which carry the force of law and require all sorts of insane concessions on the part of the user.
But I rarely did, at least until recently.
I disagree with the article - the EULAs that I have read have been quite straightforward and easy to understand. The length is often intimidating, but so long as you've managed to graduate high school, you should be able to read and understand the agreements. The companies simply know that no one is reading the agreements, and they can get people to agree to whatever they want.
take your sig and shove it
I remember once installing a program with a EULA that scrolled at a set speed. It's probably the only EULA that I've read in its entirety, but it was dead boring. I almost just decided to hit cancel and be not install.
But its not just EULAs, I don't think most people read many of the contracts they sign.
Yes. Anything that says "free," people want. But eventually people will realize there's not really such thing as "free" software. It comes with a price--in this case the annoyance of advertising, or possibly privacy violations.
Emphasis mine ...
What's this guys address so I can send him a distro of Linux?
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.
Does clicking "OK" to an EULA actually mean anything legally? I can't see how it can be binding, because there's no record of a signature (not even a digital one). There's no recorded date, or identity of who clicked the mouse.
... and if it's not legally binding, then why should I bother to read it?
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
...strip. A twist, in the fabric of space, where time becomes a loop.
Nice sig.
-- Veni, vidi, dormivi
.. and it's getting worse. I recently logged onto the American Airlines site. They asked me to agree to a usage agreement which, in printed form, is 5 pages long...of pretty small type.
A lot of it has to do with what use I'm permitted to make of the site.. like not using "mileage aggregation services" and the like. But life is too short, and I've just abandoned my use of the site. But I hope this isn't a sign of worse to come.
Actually, the article says "the Internal Revenue Service's 1040 EZ form was simpler to read"
The 1040 EZ isn't exactly college-level reading material. It's one fscking page for Chrissake!
Anyhoo, back to the article --- I think the key to EULAs is, as Hochhauser said, trust. Of course no one reads those things. You assume that it's something along the lines of, "Don't install on more than one machine at a time. If something goes wrong, don't expect anything from us." and normally that's what you get.
When Kazaa or other companies violate that trust, word gets around and the market enforces it eventually. People here have to realize that however much they obsess over licenses and privacy, most users including sophisticated users think current practices are perfectly adequate.
What I get a kick out of with these Kazaa/Gator stories is how everyone suddenly forgets to pretend they're full-time Linux users... ;-)
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
When is someone going to take these things before a Judge? There is no way that pressing a button, or tearing shrink wrap can hold the same legal standing as a signature before witnesses.
There is absolutely no way to prove who pressed the button is there? So how could this possibly be a legal "agreement?"
Fun for all the family!
Meow meow meow meow, meow meow meow meow...
That's the 1040EZ. The regular 1040 form is now: 1: How much did you make last year? _____ Instructions: Send twice the amount listed on line 1 to IRS.
Ed Wedig
Graphic design services
docbrown.net
To stay on topic: I don't read the EULA of any software. I have gotten the custom of getting drunk before installing anything on my personal machines: this way I am guaranteed not to be in the right state of mind to "sign" any contracts.
Oh, and about tax forms: when doing it together with my dad (who is an economist and knows his share of accounting) they don't look that mysterious anymore.
... to make a piece of software, like a music sharing network, for example with a EULA that states 'anybody who works the RIAA must pay a mandatory license fee of 1,000,000,000,000,000 US dollars (or pesos) for starting this software.'
I think if the RIAA were to target the legality of EULA's, it might draw their attention away from trying to take away our fair use rights.
"Derp de derp."
I'm sure there are a couple of good lawyers/law students who could draft legislation detailing the requirements of a clear summary.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
...when you create an industry out of nothing, you need to justify its existence, right?
Think of it. Everything around us is an illusion. We don't need EULAs, we don't need tax forms, we don't need so many of the inventions around us, we don't need insurance, we don't even really need currency, if you think about it. When people talk about the costs of such and such, how much does it really cost? How much does it really HAVE to cost?
The world's been spinning for untold millions of years, and it's been doing it thus far without EULAs (et al). If everyone around the world had a collective moment of brain synergy, we could do away with so many things that a small, elite few would like us to think we need because in so needing it we must also need IP laws, lawyers to write them up, politicians to pass them, etc. And in order to keep needing them, we need to make them more complicated, so that as they evolve there is always new stuff to have to learn about them, and more and more reason to justify the expense of these maintainers of unnecessary pyramids.
Think of it this way. Up here in Canada, we cannot simplify our tax laws, despite the fact that nobody sane likes our tax forms. If we simplified them, we would horrendously cripple our tax industry and infrastructure, which bobs along based ENTIRELY UPON the fact that the tax laws are complicated, and as such necessitates the cost of accountants and tax lawyers and politicians etc. We have an entire industry that supports these people, and it would collapse if we had a central computer take care of it all for us, which is entirely within the realm of comprehension. As a result, there's this nebulous morphing tax industry which everyone BELIEVES is necessary. You Americans, with your massively entrenched legal system, are feeling the same phenomenon from a different standpoint.
The world is bloat. Sorry if that sounds a little nihilistic.
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
Summaries of Court decisions affecting EULA's can be found here:.
http://www.void.jump.org/EmuFAQ2000/AppendixB.htm
See especially ProCD, Inc. v. Ziedenberg. 86 F.3d 1447 (7th Cir., 1996).
Are 1040 forms really that hard to read? I mean really. Be honest now.
I use the long form, itemize my deductions, and my wife runs a small business out of our home. I had no trouble doing our taxes myself by hand in a few hours. The few questions I had were easily answered by the tax booklet.
I understand that not ever Tom, Dick and Harry can do their own taxes, but I'd expect I'm not alone in the Slashdot community being entirely unchallenged by the 'complexity' of taxes.
Now, wanting to pay them is a separate issue entirely...
For each EULA, there only needs to be *one* person sitting down and reading it in its entirety who tells *everyone* if it's a good or a bad license.
Heck, CNET/download.com should do this. Alongside the software review, hire someone with some legal background to read the EULA and write a summary for all of us.
Like many others, I don't believe in the "contract" part of an EULA, but I do believe that EULAs can contain some information about the spywares that come bundled with the app.
If companies had to pay me to read their EULA, I guarantee they would shorten it up and make it readable.
Punch the monkey! Punch the monkey!
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
the article answers all theese burning questions about what the EULA's say very well
;)
I know if you go to terms of service, it pretty much says, "You can't sue us for anything." That's pretty much what they say in 8,000 words.
there ya go, next time you cant figure out what it's trying to say, just assume it says the above
Sorry, there really is such a thing as free software. I run most of my business on it. Most of it is even free as in beer. But the important thing is that it's also free as in freedom.
The reason I can trust it, is because I can examine the source myself. I do for some of the software I use. I contribute bug fixes back for the software I know how to fix, and is important for me to have fix. The web of trust in the open source community gives me assurance that others are doing the same for software I don't personally check.
I don't suffer 'the annoyance of advertising, or possibly privacy violations.' All thanks to truly FREE software.
yes > /dev/mem
:).
No root required! Just type it and wait for the kernel panic
A minor child cannot be bound by a contract. Have your children install your software and now the EULA is not enforceable as the contract is void.
They should scrap this excuse to employ lawyers as they really do not have the reach they are grasping at.
I read this article before. They are comparing EULA's to form 1040-EZ.
For anybody who hasn't done US Taxes before, 1040-EZ is written to be SIMPLE. You have to fill out a different form if you want to do anything other than put in how much you earned and get a number back for how much you owe.
I filled out one of these in elementary school as part of a tax class. No offense, but if they are going to write an article saying that EULA's are hard to understand, then they should have picked a tax form that uses words bigger than 2 syllables.
EULA's are of course horribly unreadable. On the other hand, there really is no reason to bother trying to read it.
It isn't a signed contract. It only comes up on the first run of most programs, or when it is installed. There is absolutely no guarentee that the person using the software ever clicked yes to accept the EULA. Maybe somebody else did? There is no way to prove it because there is no signature involved, and no witness required.
I am pretty possitive you would get nothing if you took a user to court over the EULA. If MS thought that was enough they wouldn't have bothered with all the other shit like activation codes and the like.
In my mind EULA's are a lot like disclaimers, and we all know just because you put "Using this might kill you" doens't stop you from getting screwed when somebody does exactly that.
Of course if MS made every user sign a legally binding contract it would create so much of a hassle everyone would be turning Open Source.
However, the reason for contracts like this is all the lawsuits over the years that consumers and other people that have brought that set picyune precedents like "they didn't say that the contract was severable, so I assumed that since one part was obviously invalid the whole thing was invalid".
These lawsuits are how we end up with contracts and EULA's like this.
Whether this is the lawyers' fault or the consumers, or the politically motivated consumer protection groups, or the stupid juries that agree with this kind of crap, I couldn't tell you. Probably a bit of each.
The only way to avoid stuff like this is to stop being a litigious society.
Good luck...
I dont pay taxes and I certainly dont pay any attention to EULA's.
Given the increasing globalization of the internet, it just hit me that all the EULAs and privacy policies I've seen are written in English. (Granted, I don't do much surfing on non-English pages.) This seems such an obvious loophole, but what if the EULA were written in a different language?
I'd assume there's a requirement that these agreements must be readable by the user... but some I've seen could as well have been written in a different language.
I wonder how long I'll need to wait for somebody to come out with an agreement written in one of these languages: Hacker, Bork! Bork! Bork!, Elmer Fudd, or Klingon ;^)
It should be illegal to have complicated and misleading user-agreements in software. Over the course of a day, a consumer might have to agree to several of these, not to mention other contracts, service agreements, etc. they have to sign in their non-computer life. Invariably, these sorts of things are unreadably long and full of Legalese unintelligible to the average Joe. We're bombarded by so many, that it is literally impossible to read and understand them all, let alone send them to our lawyers (as we are "supposed" to do with contracts).
Because of the size, complexity and volume of these things (and the need to usually get past them quickly), I would argue that they amount to coercion (which would invalidate them). The same is true of shrink-wrap software licenses (which you are rarely able to examine until well after you've unwittingly agreed to them). Of course, I doubt a court of law would agree with me. However, I think it would make sense to have a consumer protection law that requires that these sorts of things have a short, concise, easy to read summary at the beginning that gives the user an idea of what they're getting in to (with all the legalese below for completeness). That would prevent companies from creating scumware like this then hiding behind their user-auto-agreements.
For more information, click here.
Looks easy enough to read to me! GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE Version 2, June 1991 Copyright (C) 1989, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowed. Preamble The licenses for most software are designed to take away your freedom to share and change it. By contrast, the GNU General Public License is intended to guarantee your freedom to share and change free software--to make sure the software is free for all its users. This General Public License applies to most of the Free Software Foundation's software and to any other program whose authors commit to using it. (Some other Free Software Foundation software is covered by the GNU Library General Public License instead.) You can apply it to your programs, too. When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price. 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I can see how Hochhauser makes his money as a consultant. Someone presents him with a document and he charges $300/hr for calculating this index and that index. He'll put together a nice folder and a printed statement laying out the different scores - all looking very impressive. His report will end with a recommendation that the authors use shorter words and shorter sentences. And he probably has a PR department ensuring that he gets mentioned in articles on CNET, TV and radio.
And that statement about there being no "free software" is a blatant lie too!
-- SIGFPE
EULA's are ridiculously obtuse indeed.
Recent examples:
the microsoft EULA that rendered MS the right to modify the user's software in any way they saw fit.
That and all my software, which grants me power of attorney in the 4578th paragraph.
-=The Dude=-
To an extent, EULAs will probably always be long and complicated. A EULA has to make sure it closes every loophole since lawyers are trained to exploit contracts. Realizing this, it would be great if EULAs gave a preamble or summary. For example, the preamble of the GPL provides a great summary and explanation in layman's terms.
Speaking of repeating ...
The real problem is that if you install, for instance, Windows and Office, and patch them to current "safe" levels you will be asked to agree to about 20 different EULAs -- all slightly different. You have the original install, the patches (which can not be installed at the same time as any other patch), the upgrade of IE, etc. etc.
Now add in installing all the basic tools; zip, adobe reader, netscape (:-), java ide, etc.
By the time your machine is installed and usable you've "read and agreed" to about 100 different licenses, sometimes dozens from a single company.
Reading and understanding 100 contracts of this nature is a full days job for a trained lawyer! It's an impossible task for the average consumer/programmer.
It's time for clear laws that specify software liabilities (or lack thereof!) and prevent this kind of EULA overload that essentially forces you to either agree to everything or don't use the technology. I think we can all agree that not using the technology is not really a viable option for the bulk of people in today's society.
EULAs are just the start: every Microsoft patch and fix, on both my workstation AND my server, requires acceptance of yet another "license agreement" (and sometimes a single patch requires two acceptances of two different things). Ditto for my anti-virus software. Add a couple dozen different software applications (Quicken, Photoshop, PC Anywhere, Roxio Easy CD Creator, Eudora, Netscape, etc. etc.), each updated once or twice a year. Then add all the terms and conditions and privacy policies on each of the web sites I visit (hundreds? thousands?). What about the policies and terms for each email newsletter subscription? Don't forget online banking, online payment for my electric bill, separate online payment for my cable modem bill, and separate online payment systems for several other things. Then there's eBay, and its separate online billing (BillPoint) system, each with its own complex terms & policies. And PayPal.
Offline: And that's just the online crap. Every other credit-card bill contains a multi-panel brochure with tiny 6-point type, likewise my bank statements.
Don't forget the fine print warranties for every product we buy, plus the terms of any service contracts we buy for the equipment we buy, and the return policies at every store where we shop, and the agreement for our supermarket-club-cards.
And don't even get me started on insurance policies: my health insurance company has sent me 3 complete policy revisions this year, 50+ pages each, plus every month new qualifiers, restrictions, and special terms, and then they reject valid claims and approve fraudulent claims anyway! Then there's car insurance, homeowners, life insurance, each of which are revised at least once a year. And who ever reads the fine-print waivers when you visit a doctor or hospital?
God forbid you are a member of anything, even a homeowner's association, because then you have even more agreements and bylaws and policies. Or you are foolish enough to have kids, the paperwork multiplies again.
And that doesn't cover everything, by far.
Has anyone ever tried adding up the word counts for all these documents?
I doubt that it is physically possible to actually read all this stuff.
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
This is so cool.
Does anyone think that it is right for software companys to place pop up ads on your computer's system files. Personally I think that this is wrong, we already have to put up with pop up ads that are encoded in webpages, now they are gonna place them on our computers!
MSNBC INTERACTIVE NEWS ALERT END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT IMPORTANT-READ CAREFULLY: This MSNBC Interactive End-User License Agreement ("EULA") is a legal agreement between you (either an individual or a single entity) and MSNBC Interactive for the MSNBC Interactive software product(s) identified above, which may include associated media, printed materials, and "online" or electronic documentation ("SOFTWARE PRODUCT"). By installing, copying, or otherwise using the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, you agree to be bound by the terms of this EULA. If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, do not install or use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is protected by copyright laws and international copyright treaties, as well as other intellectual property laws and treaties. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed, not sold. 1. GRANT OF LICENSE. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed as follows: * Installation and Use. MSNBC Interactive grants you the right to install and use copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT on your computers running validly licensed copies of the operating system for which the SOFTWARE PRODUCT was designed [e.g., Microsoft Windows(r) 95; Microsoft Windows NT(r), Microsoft Windows 3.x, Macintosh, etc.]. * Backup Copies. You may also make copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT as may be necessary for backup and archival purposes. 2. DESCRIPTION OF OTHER RIGHTS AND LIMITATIONS. * Prerelease Software. If any component of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT or any of its components is marked "Prerelease" or "Beta", the component of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT constitutes pre-release code and may be changed substantially before commercial release. You may not use such component in a live operating environment where it may be relied upon to perform in the same manner as a commercially released product or with data that has not been sufficiently backed up. * Maintenance of Copyright Notices. You must not remove or alter any copyright notices on all copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. * Distribution. You may not distribute copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT to third parties, except as expressly provided in Section 1. * Prohibition on Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, and Disassembly. You may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation. * Rental. You may not rent, lease, or lend the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. * Transfer. You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this EULA, provided the recipient agrees to the terms of this EULA. * Support Services. MSNBC Interactive may provide you with support services related to the SOFTWARE PRODUCT ("Support Services"). Use of Support Services is governed by the MSNBC Interactive policies and programs described in the user manual, in "on line" documentation and/or other MSNBC Interactive-provided materials. Any supplemental software code provided to you as part of the Support Services shall be considered part of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT and subject to the terms and conditions of this EULA. With respect to technical information you provide to MSNBC Interactive as part of the Support Services, MSNBC Interactive may use such information for its business purposes, including for product support and development. MSNBC Interactive will not utilize such technical information in a form that personally identifies you. * Compliance with Applicable Laws. You must comply with all applicable laws regarding use of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. 3. TERMINATION. Without prejudice to any other rights, MSNBC Interactive may terminate this EULA if you fail to comply with the terms and conditions of this EULA. In such event, you must destroy all copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. 4. COPYRIGHT. All title, including but not limited to copyrights, in and to the SOFTWARE PRODUCT and any copies thereof are owned by MSNBC Interactive or its suppliers. All title and intellectual property rights in and to the content which may be accessed through use of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is the property of the respective content owner and may be protected by applicable copyright or other intellectual property laws and treaties. This EULA grants you no rights to use such content. All rights not expressly granted are reserved by MSNBC Interactive. 5. U.S. GOVERNMENT RESTRICTED RIGHTS. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is provided with RESTRICTED RIGHTS. Use, duplication, or disclosure by the Government is subject to restrictions as set forth in subparagraph (c)(1)(ii) of the Rights in Technical Data and Computer Software clause at DFARS 252.227-7013 or subparagraphs (c)(1) and (2) of the Commercial Computer Software Restricted Rights at 48 CFR 52.227-19, as applicable. Manufacturer is MSNBC Interactive/One Microsoft Way/Redmond, WA 98052-6399. 6. EXPORT RESTRICTIONS. You agree that you will not export or re-export the SOFTWARE PRODUCT to any country, person, entity or end user subject to U.S.A. export restrictions. Restricted countries currently include, but are not necessarily limited to Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria. You warrant and represent that neither the U.S.A. Bureau of Export Administration nor any other federal agency has suspended, revoked or denied your export privileges. 7. NO WARRANTIES. MSNBC Interactive expressly disclaims any warranty for the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT AND ANY RELATED DOCUMENTATION IS PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OR MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NONINFRINGEMENT. THE ENTIRE RISK ARISING OUT OF USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT REMAINS WITH YOU. 8. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. To the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, in no event shall MSNBC Interactive or its suppliers be liable for any special, incidental, indirect, or consequential damages whatsoever (including, without limitation, damages for loss of business profits, business interruption, loss of business information, or any other pecuniary loss) arising out of the use of or inability to use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT or the provision of or failure to provide Support Services, even if MSNBC Interactive has been advised of the possibility of such damages. In any case, MSNBC Interactive's entire liability under any provision of this EULA shall be limited to the greater of the amount actually paid by you for the SOFTWARE PRODUCT or US$5.00; provided however, if you have entered into a MSNBC Interactive Support Services Agreement, MSNBC Interactive's entire liability regarding Support Services shall be governed by the terms of that agreement. Because some states and jurisdictions do not allow the exclusion or limitation of liability, the above limitation may not apply to you. 9. MISCELLANEOUS. This EULA is governed by the laws of the State of Washington, U.S.A. Should you have any questions concerning this EULA, or if you desire to contact MSNBC Interactive for any reason, please write: MSNBC Interactive/One Microsoft Way/Redmond, WA 98052-6399.
I mean, presenting 20-40 lengthy paragraphs in tiny little windows, writing half of it in all-caps which is well known to be harder to read. That's not really an effort to inform the prospective user. Touchy stuff is buried deep in that texts, like with the recent spyware that disables adaware. It's in there to cover their asses, but obviously it is expected that these click-through-agreements are ignored. It would be interesting to see some of these "agreements" tested in court.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
Most EULA's contain restrictions that are illegal in most parts of the world - no reverse engineering, don't get to read the EULA until you've broken the packaging et cetera - so I guess they aren't worth the paper they're written on.
--
Reverse outsourcing: it's the future
redundant Pronunciation Key (r-dndnt)
adj.
Exceeding what is necessary or natural; superfluous.
Needlessly wordy or repetitive in expression: a student paper filled with redundant phrases.
Of or relating to linguistic redundancy. Chiefly British.
Dismissed or laid off from work, as for being no longer needed.
Electronics. Of or involving redundancy in electronic equipment.
Of or involving redundancy in the transmission of messages.
How was I being redundant?
hrrm.
You're right. Innumeracy is actually a pretty large problem that is generally unknown by the public. One hears of lots of "literacy" programs that help to teach people to read. But I've never heard of a single program to help those who are deficient in math.
As for the travel example you gave - my employer (Lawrence Livermore Nat'l Lab) has made it a no-no to take personal travel while on foreign business travel. I think they were having people go to England to "just" attend a conference, tacking on some vacation, and having the Lab pay for most of the hotel and all of the airfare.
END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT
Software License Agreement for MY HUGE COCK
IMPORTANT- PLEASE READ CAREFULLY: BY INSTALLING THE SOFTWARE (AS DEFINED BELOW), COPYING THE SOFTWARE AND/OR CLICKING ON THE 'ACCEPT' BUTTON BELOW, YOU (EITHER ON BEHALF OF YOURSELF AS AN INDIVIDUAL OR ON BEHALF OF AN ENTITY AS ITS AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE) AGREE TO ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT ('AGREEMENT') REGARDING YOUR USE OF THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, CLICK ON THE 'NO' BUTTON. THIS WILL CANCEL THE INSTALLATION.
1. GRANT OF LICENSE: Subject to the terms below, YOUR FAT ASS hereby grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to install and to use MY HUGE COCK ('Software').
Under this license, you may: (i) install and use the Software on a single computer for your personal, internal use (ii) copy the Software for back-up or archival purposes. (iii)You may not distribute the software to others without first obtaining the required licenses, where applicable.
Whether you are licensing the Software as an individual or on behalf of an entity, you may not: (i) reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Software or attempt to discover the source code; (ii) modify, or create derivative works based upon, the Software in whole or in part without the express written consent of YOUR FAT ASS; (iii) distribute copies of the Software; (iv) remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Software; (v) resell, lease, rent, transfer, sublicense, or otherwise transfer rights to the Software.
2. TITLE: You acknowledge that no title to the intellectual property in the Software is transferred to you. Title, ownership, rights, and intellectual property rights in and to the Software shall remain that of YOUR FAT ASS . The Software is protected by copyright and patent laws of the United States and international treaties.
3. DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY:
YOU AGREE THAT YOUR FAT ASS HAS MADE NO EXPRESS WARRANTIES, ORAL OR WRITTEN, TO YOU REGARDING THE PRODUCTS AND THAT THE PRODUCTS ARE BEING PROVIDED TO YOU 'AS IS' WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND. YOUR FAT ASS DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, WHETHER EXPRESSED, IMPLIED, OR STATUTORY. YOUR RIGHTS MAY VARY DEPENDING ON THE STATE IN WHICH YOU LIVE.
YOUR FAT ASS SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, COVER, RELIANCE, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES RESULTING FROM THE USE OF THIS PRODUCT.
5. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY: You use this program solely at your own risk.
IN NO EVENT SHALL YOUR FAT ASS BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY LOSS, OR OTHER INCIDENTAL, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OF ANY KIND ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF THE SOFTWARE, EVEN IF YOUR FAT ASS HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. IN NO EVENT WILL YOUR FAT ASS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, TORT, OR ANY OTHER THEORY OF LIABILITY, EXCEED THE COST OF THE SOFTWARE. THIS LIMITATION SHALL APPLY TO CLAIMS OF PERSONAL INJURY TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW.
6. TERMINATION: This Agreement shall terminate automatically if you fail to comply with the limitations described in this Agreement. No notice shall be required to effectuate such termination. Upon termination, you must remove and destroy all copies of the Software.
7. MISCELLANEOUS:
Severability.
In the event of invalidity of any provision of this Agreement, the parties agree that such invalidity shall not affect the validity of the remaining portions of this Agreement.
Export.
You agree that you will not export or re-export the Software outside of the jurisdiction in which you obtained it without the appropriate United States or foreign government licenses.
Governing Law.
This Agreement will be governed by the laws of the State of GEORGE BUSH LAND as they are applied to agreements between GEORGE BUSH LAND residents entered into and to be performed entirely within GEORGE BUSH LAND. The United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods is specifically disclaimed.
Entire Agreement.
You agree that this is the entire agreement between you and YOUR FAT ASS, which supersedes any prior agreement, whether written or oral, and all other communications between YOUR FAT ASS and you relating to the subject matter of this Agreement.
Reservation of rights.
All rights not expressly granted in this Agreement are reserved by YOUR FAT ASS.
maybe a scheme similar to the Platform for Privacy Preferences (P3P) Project could be used to unclutter this mess.
but i doubt that software manufacturers of popular adware products would agree to a eula, that is brought in readable form stating "all your information are belong to us - click yes to let us install trojan profile-harvesting software"
they don't mean anything!
Click Yes and ignore. Anything else merely encourages this EULA foolishness. After all, even if they were legally binding, who's going to enforce them?
(I suppose I need to mention be careful what you install on your system for all those kazaa users out there.)
The IRS has actually spent time and money trying to make the tax code (which is harder to read than the average EULA) easy to follow with the various forms they've created.
The average software shop doesn't care if their EULA is readable, and increasingly more companies like it that way. Providing a simplified explanation is not trivial, and has various legal landmines to navigate.
So any comparison is not very reasonable - they are intended for completely different purposes, and one will necessarily be more difficult to understand than the other.
-Adam
http://www.geocities.com/wpl510/eula.htm
Done by someone named Andy. Requires Javascript.
--- Sueños del Sur - a webcomic about four young siblings
Often, the EULA that comes with the software is out of date anyway: companies reserve the right to change terms and conditions at any point, so what you read and agree to may already be out of date. Do you have the time and interest to check whether there is a newer version? Most people don't.
For most web sites, you are a fool if you give them any information you care about. For the few web sites where you need to give a correct address and a credit card number, reputation probably counts more than EULA, but there is one case where you might want to check about any unexpected charges and marketing tie-ins.
Now, can anybody hold you to the EULA? Not really: unless you try to do something with the software that is somehow visible to other people, nobody knows that you are using the software, let alone that you have agreed to the EULA, so many provisions are meaningless. If you plan on reverse engineering the software, building applications with it, or linking with it, you might have to worry about it, but then, you might be better off not living in the US. And the law already protects you against highly one-sided contracts (Bill Gates may write into his EULA that you agree to be be his towel boy for a year, but he'd have a hard time enforcing that).
Most of these problems and issues with EULAs are unrelated to their readability; even if they were highly readable, there still wouldn't be much point in reading them.
is because people don't percieve them as legally enforceable. They see it as some stupid BS that they have to click on to use the product they *already* purchased.
EULA's are still largely untested in the courts.
If it was a paper they were asked to sign.. that's another story.
If this were like the much accalimed "Day" as in "Back in the Day" things wouldn't be like this. EULAs would be simple. Usually things like, "If this destroys your computer, we'll buy you a new one." Or, "If we destroy your house trying to re-roof it, we'll pay for repairs." Now, its like, "If this destroys your computer, you must buy a new copy, and you cannot sue us, and you are entitled to no reimbursement." and "If we destroy your house, you have to pay us full price, and we are not responsible."
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Slightly OT, but this is a story of a contract/warranty that the average Joe can understand.
A while back in Hawaii, there was a used car dealer by the name of Lippy Espinda. You might have seen him as he used to appear as Hawaii-50; he played a street wise, know everything police informer. Anyway, he once ran this commercial where he said something like this.
People ask me, "Hey Lippy? Do you have a warranty on your cars that you sell?" I tell them, when when you drive away in your car, and you see me waving at you, warranty is good. When I stop waving, no more warranty.
Parts of a EULA's are something like that. The software company is waving at you from the time that you look at a box of software at CompUSA until you buy it, bring it home and click the Accept button. Then they stop waving.
Sufftvere-a Leecense-a Egreement fur Sleeme-a-Soocker 3.141592654 IMPORTENT- PLEESE REED CEREFOoLLY: BY INSTELLING THE SOFTVERE (ES DEFINED BELOV), COPYING THE SOFTVERE END/OoR CLICKING OoN THE 'ECCEPT' BOoTTON BELOV, YOOo (IITHER OoN BEHELF OoF YOOoRSELF ES EN INDIFIDOoEL OoR OoN BEHELF OoF EN INTITY ES ITS EOoTHORIZED REPRESENTETIFE) EGREE TO ELL OoF THE TERMS OoF THIS IND USER LICENSE EGREEMENT ('EGREEMENT') REGERDING YOOoR USE OoF THE SOFTVERE. IF YOOo DO NOT EGREE VITH ELL OoF THE TERMS OoF THIS EGREEMENT, CLICK OoN THE 'NO' BOoTTON. THIS VILL CENCEL THE INSTELLETION.
1. GRENT OoF LICENSE: Soobject tu zee terms beloo, PundScoom, DeesCurpureted hereby grunts yuoo a nun-ixclooseefe-a, nun-trunsffereble-a leecense-a tu instell und tu use-a Sleeme-a-Soocker 3.141592654 ('Sufftvere'). Under thees leecense-a, yuoo mey: (i) instell und use-a zee Sufftvere-a oon a seengle-a cumpooter fur yuoor persunel, internel use-a (iee) cupy zee Sufftvere-a fur beck-up oor ercheefel poorpuses. (ieei)Yuoo mey nut deestriboote-a zee sufftvere-a tu oozeers veethuoot furst oobteeening zee reqooured leecenses, vhere-a eppleeceble-a. Vhezeer yuoo ere-a leecensing zee Sufftvere-a es un indeefidooel oor oon behelff ooff un inteety, yuoo mey nut: (i) referse-a ingeeneer, decumpeele-a, oor deesessemble-a zee Sufftvere-a oor ettempt tu deescufer zee suoorce-a cude-a; (iee) mudeeffy, oor creete-a dereefetife-a vurks besed upun, zee Sufftvere-a in vhule-a oor in pert veethuoot zee ixpress vreettee cunsent ooff PundScoom, DeesCurpureted; (ieei) deestriboote-a cupeees ooff zee Sufftvere-a; (if) remufe-a uny prupreeetery nuteeces oor lebels oon zee Sufftvere-a; (f) resell, leese-a, rent, trunsffer, soobleecense-a, oor oozeerveese-a trunsffer reeghts tu zee Sufftvere-a.
2. TITLE: Yuoo ecknooledge-a thet nu teetle-a tu zee intellectooel pruperty in zee Sufftvere-a is trunsfferred tu yuoo. Teetle-a, oovnersheep, reeghts, und intellectooel pruperty reeghts in und tu zee Sufftvere-a shell remeeen thet ooff PundScoom, DeesCurpureted . Zee Sufftvere-a is prutected by cupyreeght und petent levs ooff zee Uneeted Stetes und interneshunel treeteees.
3. DISCLEIMER OoF VERRENTY: YOOo EGREE THET PundScoom, DeesCurpureted HES MEDE NO IXPRESS VERRENTIES, OoREL OoR VRITTEN, TO YOOo REGERDING THE PRODOoCTS END THET THE PRODOoCTS ERE BEING PROFIDED TO YOOo 'ES IS' VITHOOoT VERRENTY OoF ENY KIND. PundScoom, DeesCurpureted DISCLEIMS ENY END ELL OoTHER VERRENTIES, VHETHER IXPRESSED, IMPLIED, OoR STETOoTORY. YOOoR RIGHTS MEY FERY DEPENDING OoN THE STETE IN VHICH YOOo LIFE. PundScoom, DeesCurpureted SHELL NOT BE LIEBLE FOR INDIRECT, INCIDENTEL, SPECIEL, COFER, RELIENCE, OoR CONSEQOoENTIEL DEMEGES RESOoLTING FROM THE USE OoF THIS PRODOoCT.
5. LIMITETION OoF LIEBILITY: Yuoo use-a thees prugrem sulely et yuoor oovn reesk. IN NO IFENT SHELL PundScoom, DeesCurpureted BE LIEBLE TO YOOo FOR ENY DEMEGES, INCLOoDING BOoT NOT LIMITED TO ENY LOSS, OoR OoTHER INCIDENTEL, INDIRECT OoR CONSEQOoENTIEL DEMEGES OoF ENY KIND ERISING OoOoT OoF THE USE OoF THE SOFTVERE, IFEN IF PundScoom, DeesCurpureted HES BEEN EDFISED OoF THE POSSIBILITY OoF SOoCH DEMEGES. IN NO IFENT VILL PundScoom, DeesCurpureted BE LIEBLE FOR ENY CLEIM, VHETHER IN CONTRECT, TORT, OoR ENY OoTHER THEORY OoF LIEBILITY, IXCEED THE COST OoF THE SOFTVERE. THIS LIMITETION SHELL EPPLY TO CLEIMS OoF PERSONEL INJOoRY TO THE IXTENT PERMITTED BY LEV.
6. TERMINETION: Thees Egreement shell termeenete-a ootumeteecelly iff yuoo feeel tu cumply veet zee leemiteshuns descreebed in thees Egreement. Nu nuteece-a shell be-a reqooured tu iffffectooete-a sooch termeeneshun. Upun termeeneshun, yuoo moost remufe-a und destruy ell cupeees ooff zee Sufftvere-a.
7. MISCELLENEOOoS:
Seferebeelity. In zee ifent ooff infeleedity ooff uny prufeesiun ooff thees Egreement, zee perteees egree-a thet sooch infeleedity shell nut effffect zee feleedity ooff zee remeeening purshuns ooff thees Egreement.
Ixpurt. Yuoo egree-a thet yuoo veell nut ixpurt oor re-a-ixpurt zee Sufftvere-a ooootseede-a ooff zee jooreesdicshun in vheech yuoo oobteeened it veethuoot zee epprupreeete-a Uneeted Stetes oor fureeegn gufernment leecenses.
Transfers. By eccepteeng thees egreement, yuoo egree-a tu geefe-a PundScoom, DeesCurpureted yuoor immurtel suool und furst-burn cheeld, unless zeere-a ixeests nu jooreesdicshun in vheech zeese-a prufeesiuns ere-a inffurceble-a. Bork Bork Bork!
Guferneeng Lev.
Thees Egreement veell be-a guferned by zee levs ooff zee Stete-a ooff Eleska es zeey ere-a eppleeed tu egreements betveee Eleska reseedents intered intu und tu be-a perffurmed inturely veethin Eleska. Zee Uneeted Neshuns Cunfenshun oon Cuntrects fur zee Interneshunel Sele-a ooff Guuds is speceefficelly deescleimed. Inture-a Egreement. Yuoo egree-a thet thees is zee inture-a egreement betveee yuoo und PundScoom, DeesCurpureted, vheech soopersedes uny preeur egreement, vhezeer vreettee oor oorel, und ell oozeer cummooneeceshuns betveee PundScoom, DeesCurpureted und yuoo releteeng tu zee soobject metter ooff thees Egreement. Reserfeshun ooff reeghts. Ell reeghts nut ixpressly grunted in thees Egreement ere-a reserfed by PundScoom, DeesCurpureted.
Bork Bork Bork!
There now, that wasn't so hard, was it? Didn't you almost get the feeling that you were reading English? Did you notice the parts about your children, and your soul?
The 1040 is a personal income tax form, dumbass. Corporations don't have personal income, they just create personal income for others, like for instance, you.
Legalese is everywhere around us. You see it when you install a piece of software, you see it when you pay your taxes. It's the world that is pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth...
Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
The producers are using this in an attempt to shirk their responsabilities.
Nobody reads these pieces of ass-wad because there is no negotiation and no alternative. Basically, they are meaningless, unenforcable and totally useless.
We all know that there is only ONE recourse and that is to burn Redmond to cinders and lynch Gates' minions. When that becomes an inevitable alternative, we'll do it. Until then, we'll put up with the crap we get because a) its not our software, its not important and we don't give a shit b) we don't have any choice.
You could place clauses in there that would indicate that you wish to sell the user's better looking daughters into sexual slavery and render the rest of the family for the fat content and nobody would bat an eye because nobody would notice.
But I'd have to ask for a front row seat to watch when the lawyers come to your door to cart away your daughters and melt the rest for lard. Can you say "bullets flying?"
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Take a real-world contract I just signed, for next year's housing at my school. Now, the way it works here is that you go into a room and pick the housing you want, then take a card over to a couple people with computers who will print out a contract for you to sign, and hand you a 6-page booklet of terms and conditions. Now, I happen to have looked through that booklet a while ago, so I knew there was a clause (clause X) I don't like:
So, I asked the guy if I could amend the booklet to strike that clause. Of course, I couldn't. So my only alternative would be to not sign the contract and then try and find an apartment in New York for $700/month.What did I gain from reading the contract? Absolutely nothing, just knowing that I'm screwed. I'm screwed whether I know it or not, so why shouldn't I just save my time and not read the contract? It was a nice day---I'd rather be outside than wading through a 6-page booklet of legal mumbo jumbo that I can't change.
See http://www.osdn.com/terms.shtml to see what I mean by "verbose." It might not be a 1040-GvMny, but it isn't "don't do anything stupid" either.
Why is so much attention given to EULA/*PL's, and not website TOS's?
My Blog: http://nic.dreamhost.com/
Want the Feds. to help you enforce your copyright? Fine. Mark your work (c) and let the law apply, fair use, first sale and all.
Want to deal in the world of contracts? Fine. Write one, get it signed, exchange goods, and enforce breach on your own.
Pretty CLEAR to me.
One of the best arguments I've seen against the enforceability of EULAs it the simple scenario: if you find the EULA unacceptable - something that you can only do after paying for the software - and attempt to return it for a refund, can you?
With almost no exceptions, the answer is NO. The author says it's an issue for the seller, the seller says that they don't refund software after it's been opened.
This means that you're coerced to agree to the EULA. If you click 'no,' you're out your money without appeal. This violates the basic premise of contract law (an exchange of items of value - in this case you aren't just getting a poor deal, you're getting *nothing* in exchange for hard currency) and has a strong coercive nature.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
To my knowledge, shrink-wrap and click-wrap licenses are illegal in Sweden.
However, I'm not a laywer, and it's only what I heard.
/ The Arrow
"How lovely you are. So lovely in my straightjacket..." - Nny
But you surely care about Yakisoyba!!
In reply to the unending queries on the subject:
YES!! WE HAVE YAKISOYBA
Here's a sample from one I just downloaded yesterday :
I. On completion of the installation on the owners PC in which he has full authority to lease, rent, sell, or distroy, the author of the licensed software in question retains the right to cease the third party ownership of the hardware verbatum in management solution languages.
II. If licensee revokes his/her/its legality premits of the fourth retainership level of rent, then all copyright infrigement laws become obsolete, status in political ownership of software layer ownership halts on the date in question of the rent infringement.
III. If third party ownership decides to change original binary stack contained within the leased fourth layer management language, verbatum polysoftware triad topical analysis will be enforced upon the first party owner.
IV. All your base belongs to us.
"But the reason that I don't read EULAs (or most other things I sign) is that there's no point in wasting my time. I can't negotiate with the company if there's a term in the EULA I don't like. Either I accept the license, or I don't get the product or service they're offering."
Actually a better reason is you either click the button or you can't use the software you just paid for. The fact is you already purchased the right to use the software when you picked it up from Best Buy.
They can't add on additional caveats after you already purchased the software.
So the reason people click "I Agree" is because the EULA doesn't mean jack.. it's non enforcable since it takes place after-the-sale.
Of course, it's really a sound bite from star trek tng... Warf: "There is the theory of the mobius; a twist in the fabric of space where time becomes a loop" or similar; and there's another one by Geordi I think in the song somewhere else...
Orbital would be dang cool if they didn't have a song called "Satan"...
A 1040 is a fucking piece of cake to read and understand. The problem lies in the in-ability of your average American to use the lump of flesh between their ears for more than basic math and reading. That so many people could be so ignorant fascinates me, however, looking at the way the American society has progressed over the last hundred years, it's easy to see why this has happened.
So instead of staying saturday night at their own expense and getting the cheaper airfare for their employer, they fritter away the money instead?
That sounds very Dilbertian.
On the (alas only) two business trips I have been on (as a techie), I managed to get holiday tacked onto the end, which saved both me and the company money.
And, no, I don't like Star Wars either... Seems there is hope for me after all, but then I am (was) a Babylon 5 addict.
Please mod parent up as +5 Insightful, I don't have any more modpoints, otherwise, I would use all of them to mod it up. Thanks.
Absolutely. How, precisely, should sentences like the one below, which is an exception to the totally nonsensical rules on "collapsible corporations," be translated into a simple form? The I.R.S. may do a bad job, but most of the blame has to lie with the Congress that refuses to repeal dreck like the following, the first sentence of sec. 341(e)(1):
For purposes of subsection (a)(1), a corporation shall not be considered to be a collapsible corporation with respect to any sale or exchange of stock of the corporation by a shareholder, if, at the time of such sale or exchange, the sum of (A) the net unrealized appreciation in subsection (e) assets of the corporation (as defined in paragraph (5)(A)), plus (B) if the shareholder owns more than 5 percent in value of the outstanding stock of the corporation the net unrealized appreciation in assets of the corporation (other than assets described in subparagraph (A)) which would be subsection (e) assets under clauses (i) and (iii) of paragraph (5)(A) if the shareholder owned more than 20 percent in value of such stock, plus (C) if the shareholder owns more than 20 percent in value of the outstanding stock of the corporation and owns, or at any time during the preceding 3-year period owned, more than 20 percent in value of the outstanding stock of any other corporation more than 70 percent in value of the assets of which are, or were at any time during which such shareholder owned during such 3-year period more than 20 percent in value of the outstanding stock, assets similar or related in service or use to assets comprising more than 70 percent in value of the assets of the corporation, the net unrealized appreciation in assets of the corporation (other than assets described in subparagraph (A)) which would be subsection (e) assets under clauses (i) and (iii) of paragraph (5)(A) if the determination whether the property, in the hands of such shareholder, would be property gain from the sale or exchange of which would under any provision of this chapter be considered in whole or in part as ordinary income, were made (i) by treating any sale or exchange by such shareholder of stock in such other corporation within the preceding 3-year period (but only if at the time of such sale or exchange the shareholder owned more than 20 percent in value of the outstanding stock in such other corporation) as a sale or exchange by such shareholder of his proportionate share of the assets of such other corporation, and (ii) by treating any liquidating sale or exchange of property by such other corporation within such 3-year period (but only if at the time of such sale or exchange the shareholder owned more than 20 percent in value of the outstanding stock in such other corporation) as a sale or exchange by such shareholder of his proportionate share of the property sold or exchanged, does not exceed an amount equal to 15 percent of the net worth of the corporation.
I Can't Believe It's A Law Firm, LLP does not necessarily endorse the contents of this message.
Of course, it's really a sound bite from star trek tng... Warf: "There is the theory of the mobius; a twist in the fabric of space where time becomes a loop" or similar; and there's another one by Geordi I think in the song somewhere else...
"warf" would rhyme with "barf".
I think your probably talking about Lt. Cmdr. Worf.
Orbital would be dang cool if they didn't have a song called "Satan"...
Um, hows that make them not cool?
Does the metnion of Satan ruins a band's coolness in your eyes?
ah, who am I talking to. Your an AC. You'll probably never even read this.
*sigh*
*checks "post anonymously"*