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Spider-Man, Star Wars and the Power of Myth
Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there.
The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex.
It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful.
In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker.
Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians.
Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales.
What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals.
He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held.
Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance.
Batman's Bruce Wayne, along with the Superhero stars and any number of X-Men, never shirk their duty to the public, even though the fickle populace is sure, at some point, to turn on them. No matter how tempted, they are, they do what they're supposed to do.
The late teacher and mythologist Joseph Campbell wrote that myth was still one of the powerful forces in the world. The origins and power of myth are still central, from the comic book lover to the hacker. The success of revived yarns like Stan Lee's Spider-Man, while they rarely seem to take themselves as seriously as their fans take them, is amazing, and proves his point. We seem to constantly be turning backwards to myths for inspiration and entertainment, while we are busy making the myths of tomorrow but don't really know which ones will take.
The Spider-Man story is pretty basic, especially when compared to the lumbering twists and turns of Star Wars: wimpy outer-borough kid contracts enormous powers, learns to use them wisely and well, faces terrible danger, sacrifices much.
Peter Parker isn't as deep as the Skywalker brothers and Uncle Ben is no Obi-Wan. But as the box office receipts demonstrate, the writers at Marvel comics have held their own when it comes to myth-making. Sometimes, simpler is better.
"more accessible to kids"
Isn't it rated PG-13 vs. Star Wars' PG ratings?
Kiss my bass.
Skywalker had a brother? Which Skywalker? Not Luke (maybe Jon Katz has the Really Special Edition, who knows). I know Anakin doesn't have a brother... hmmm... another Katz mix up?
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
What about Steve Ditko?
The answer is simple: advertising.
JonKatz, if you looked around you would have seen how much advertising and tie-ins there were to these movies.
I do not think they in any way qualify as modern myth. Something more likely to have that honour is `Lord of the Rings' (the book, not the movie! I hated the movie).
Should have read this first. This article should be moderated -1 Flamebait.
.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Actually, Leia and Luke are brothers
That's a bet I'd take.
Never take moderation advice from sigs, including this one.
Why is it so essential to try to analyze something that should just be left alone. Let it be what it is, don't try to explain it, compare it, what ever. Those of us who read/saw/etc Spiderman etc and those who didn't really don't need the effort. Its part of your life and it relates to you, or it doesn't, you learn what you can from it, the experience is solely yours. Sheesh.
Perhaps you can learn a bit from Ben Parker: "With great power comes great responsibility".
Now how about adapting that to more meaningful journalism, instead of trying to over analyze everything.
I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones
When considering the fact that unless my sources are mistaken Spiderman made MORE money on opening weekend than Episode One (in fact I heard that Spidy set some records) and there is MUCH LESS hype about Episode 2 than Episode One I think that might just be a somewhat safe bet.
I stole this Sig
Salon had an interesting editorial presenting
a different perspective, suggesting that Star Wars had
its roots in sci fi fiction rather than grand myths.
Check it out, it's a worthwhile read.
-- Martini
A quick glance over his last 20 stories show an avergae of 370 comments per story, his top three garnering 1021, 713 and 633. This man walks right behind the fury of the anti-MS brigade.
Strange thing is, Katz is universally (face it, Slashdot is our universe) abhorred, belittled and flamed week after week, yet remains gainfully(?) employed by Slashdot, and continues to pull in the page views.
In summation, the perfect troll. ;)
Batman is a DC Comic, not Marvel.
Marvel: X-Men, Spiderman, Hulk
DC: Batman, Superman, Justice League
...that Spider-Man will have a significantly larger opening weekend than AOTC, because AOTC is opening on far fewer screens. The only valid comparison will be what their total gross is once they've had their runs.
Incidentally, there is concern in the press that Spider-Man may peak too early because it opened on so many screens; however, I'm sure it was intentional, as they knew they had to make as much money as possible in the two weeks before AOTC opened.
As I begun to read it:
"Oh great, another JonKatz rant..."
After the first paragraph or two though, I began to think:
"Hm, maybe Jon gets a bad rap too much, this actually makes a bit of sense."
Then he started tying in the net and how script kiddies are today's version of comic book readers:
"Well, he started off well, this is kind of a little out-there, but I'll cut him some slack."
Then he starts talking about the post-9/11 meaning of sci-fi:
"Forget it, this guys a twit. I shouldn't have even started reading it."
Moral of the story: Jon can write pretty well if he wants to. Not everything has to deal with 9/11 though or about the alienation of nerds and geeks.
int func(int a);
func((b += 3, b));
It only took 1 week for the Katz analysis. I should have known that Cmdr Taco's review would not be the final word.
We all hoped too soon.
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." Sun Tzu
How about the (soon to be movie) Hulk? He always seemed to be the prototypical super hero for stereotypical pimplyfaced teens. The Hulk was someone that kids could easily relate to as he centered around the base emotion of anger. Everyone knows anger.
" I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. "
Can you moderate a post as Flamebait?
Tell me that throwing this into a nerd discussion isn't like throwing raw steak into a den of hungry lions
I was reading the summary and noted that the use of "elephantine" sounded both odd for a Katz article and strangely familiar.
From the New York Times review:
---
Like weary Brezhnev-era Muscovites, the American moviegoing public will line up out of habit and compulsion, ruefully hoping that this episode will at least be a little better than the last one, and perhaps inwardly suspecting that the whole elephantine system is rotten.
---
Very interesting..
Spider-man's springboard was an comic which has it's glory days in the past (comic sales are lower than decades past, probably due to computers, video games, etc.) and an incredibly inane and plodding newspaper strip. That it's done so well most likely speaks volumes (largely ignored in Hollywood) at the value of producing family entertainment. I'm old enough to remember when 'R' rated films only came through town once in a while, now they're usually 50% of what's showing, if not more. Even PG-13 stuff can be pretty awful, so when the old web slinger hit the screens it was a safe bet that kids would be there, most of the viewers in the lines I saw were of the ankle-biter variety. Lasting power, of course remains to be seen.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals.
Obviously, you're talking out of your ass again. Wolvie has adamantium claws and frequents bars quite often, usually enjoying a brewsky or two. Hell, he's Canadian and if you don't drink at least two beers a day, they'll deport your ass faster than you can say "Hockey Night in Canada".
Nothing to see here, move along.
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
Here are some of the themes:
t ion
Sexual jealousy
Murder
Envy
Revenge
Paranoia
Domina
Repressed Homoeroticism
Oedipus complex
Rock On !!
Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net.
Oh please! Like you have any experience with that!
And I am not sure what people are talking about on the marketing stuff. I tried to get Voice Stream first because I think Jamie Lee Curtis is HOT! She turned me down, so I have Cingular on the VisorPhone now. Just check my journal.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Campbell is a dead-white-guy (even while living) who saw everything in terms of other dead-white-guy stories. He attempted to shoe-horn other cultures and their stories into Western style myths, and then pointed out how clever he was.
Anybody why even glibpses a page of Mr. Campbell's PBS-style writings starts seening everything in tems of myth. "The milk being poured into my fruit-loops is like the story of the Hero's of Yore who travel on an Adventure, only to come back to a decimated homeland"
The guy had a cerain nack of getting grants to do his "craft", I'll give him that, but his readers rank up there with readers of and Ayn Rand and Chompsky, they start to see everything in terms of their favorite new book.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful.
Yeah, and I'm floored that he didn't stick a "post-Columbine" reference in here! And I didn't see globalism mentioned once! Has the world turned topsy-turvy?
GMD
watch this
Why not just say "arachnerd"?
Best Slashdot Co
To me it doesn't make much sense to compare these two movies nor do I think there's anything to be gained from insinuating George Lucas needs to learn something from Spider-Man.
First, they are two separate genres. Sam Raimi needed to live up to the expectations set by the comic book. George Lucas needs to live up to his previous films. Lucas has to create the material where Raimi needs more to interpret. Lucas doesn't always succeed at not ripping off others but still, he has to create his material. This doesn't lessen Raimi's work--in many ways it is more difficult to interpret.
Second, film is art. Art shouldn't be derivative of what is "hot" at the box office. If Star Wars was derivative of what was being shown at the time we'd have a much different film. If anything, Lucas should *ignore* other films and get back to making a story that interests him. Star Wars interested him--Episode I sought to provide something for everyone else.
I have to disagree, as always, with Katz. Lucas needs to look inward and not to Campbell, Raimi, or even Stan Lee for help with his picture.
Of course we torture people, we need the information --Gen. Pinochet
I went to see Spider-Man because I've loved the character since I was a kid. I've since recommended the movie to anybody who wants to know because I liked it. Yes, Spider-Man was heavily advertised. None of that made any difference to me.
Obviously advertising can make a big difference in the popularity of a product, but if you would bother to read any Advertising 101 textbook you'll find out that advertising is most effective for differentiating products that have litle difference. That's why there's so much advertising for laundary detergent: they're all the same. Movies may appear to be very different to movie fans, but in terms of consumer perception movies are almost a commodity: they are one of several options for a weekend's entertainment. Lucas could have done no advertising whatsoever for AOTC and all the Star Wars fans would have still showed up with their plastic light sabers, but the general public who simply want to know what to do for a date or some time with the kids would have ignored it.
(There are also other intentions for advertising besides product differentiation. Insert standard AIDA lecture here.)
So now I put the question back to you: you've spent your money on products before. Do *you* only buy products because of advertising? If not, whty do you assume everyone else is an advertising drone?
Miko O'Sullivan
He managed to squeeze a reference to 9-11 in a freakin cartoon review. I love it. I had no idea the world was as deep and mysterious until Mr. Katz started writing. I think I will go buy his book on dogs to see if I am missing something there too.
***I GOT NUTHIN***
Katz posted something reasonable!
It wasn't that reasonable. Note his following comment:
Peter Parker isn't as deep as the Skywalker brothers and Uncle Ben is no Obi-Wan
Clearly, Katz wasn't paying attention to some of the more subtle aspects of the Spider-man movie. The movie was Christ metaphor. He seems to have missed the Green Goblin's attempt to persuade Parker to join him (symbolic of Satan's tempting of Christ, offering him the whole world if only he would join forces with him). There was also the stigmata and shed blood, as well as a few more obvious biblical references for the clue-impaired (Goblin's attack on Aunt May, and his insistence on her finishing the prayer to state his nature).
And this doesn't even cover the Goblin's demonic dualism (he died from the nanogas. Was his powers the result of the gas? Or demonic possession of his corpse?) Notice his discussions with "himself"; there are clearly two personalities, and one of them is not merely a distortion of his former self, but a new entity altogether. Notice how he bows before it (the mask scene) and begs (unsuccessfully) for it not to use his body to perform its evil desires.
And that doesn't even go into the rejection of false dichotomies (the "will you save the woman you love or the innocent children?" choice). Parker's refusal to make that choice would be a great lesson for many of us, since similar false choices ("ban guns to save the children", "abandon civil liberties to protect ourselves from the terrorists", etc) confront many of us these days.
Spider-man may not have been even remotely a perfect movie, but to suggest that any random star wars movie has more "depth" is laughable.
In 1939, Gone With the Wind grossed a total of about $192 million ..adjusted for inflaction, it made about $2.3 BILLION DOLLARS.
i es.html) for my info.
In 1997, Titanic grossed about $600 million...adjusted for inflation...$0.6 BILLION.
So..Gone With the Wind made 3.83 TIMES AS MUCH as Titanic...
You wonder why they don't do things in terms of tickets sold don't you? They just keep increasing the price of movies so they can say last year's movie beat the year before's.
And yes, I do realize that these aren't opening week ticket sales; they are the total income for the movies.
I used this: Site (http://history.acusd.edu/gen/filmnotes/costs-mov
...sigh...you'd expect the Slashdot crowd to realize this...but since we're talking about Katz...I guess it slides.
Not everything has to deal with 9/11 though or about the alienation of nerds and geeks.
;-)
He writes about Columbine too! Well, ok that is covered by the alienation thing but it IS a different event
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
...committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum
I knew Batman was powerful, but I had no idea that he could transmute into works of architecture!
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
This film didn't shock anybody. The critics pretty much universly loved the film. JonKatz should do just a tad more research before he bases an entire article off of a preposterous claim.
If you just go to RottenTomatoes.com which compiles move reviews into one big list and takes the ratio of good to bad you'd know that SpiderMan got an unusually high 84% positive reviews. Check out the reviews
Offtopic: also check out the review for one of the worst movies of all time: Battlefield Earth. Some of the reviews are so funny it nearly makes me want to cry.
The Generation
I'd say something witty here, but I'm not that bright.
John Katz, couldn't you have looked past the first goddamn paragraph of the NYTimes review of AOC to find some catchy word to snip? I mean, my God, the NYT review was announced on slashdot today?
So, /. readers, from which articles did JK cut and paste to get his Spidey-man ideas?
Comic books by design are meant to have simple plots loaded with action. Star Wars on the other hand is a whole entire Universe filled with the complexities of real life in a distant fabled future. I'm nost so sure you can compare the two in any aspect. Just my $.02 :)
Eddy.WriteLinux.Com
I couldn't help but notice that Mr. Katz is not using his original thoughts, but plagirizing from an article posted here on /. earlier today.
Mr. Katz's quote:
most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga,
Quote from NY Times article, posted here:
and perhaps inwardly suspecting that the whole elephantine system is rotten.
Geez, stop stealing others' stuff and get an original thought, will ya?
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
Katz can't write well or, if he can, he chooses not to in all of his writings that I've read. I'll grant you that he has a certain knack for artistically wrapping words up in today's style and making his writing and the events that he writes about sound more profound than they are really. However, the mark of a good writer is to communicate well and to shed some light on a subject. Katz fails miserably on both counts. His thoughts are clouded. His premises are often, undeniably, incorrect. His conclusions are often wrong, misguided, or completely unclear. Katz can't communicate anything clearly, never mind persuade. Jon's writing lacks any significant insight on anything. What's more, besides just being a hack, he's insincere. He is constantly jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon and cloaking his words in that certain vagueness to cater to his audiences' fickle cause du jour. I, for one, can't respect Katz.
Good try Katz, but you're full of hot air.
Spiderman will do better because it'll be a better movie. Episode I was so bad, people don't want to be tortured again. It's that fucking simple.
And this is coming from a guy with an Empire poster hanging on his wall signed by George Lucas, Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, and Harrison Ford.
John Katz:Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth.
Did I miss the part where he listed these classic elements?
John Katz:The old form still has legs.
Again. What form.
John Katz:Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful.
Who is they? If your talking about the huddled masses of geekness, then I'd like to know under what pretensive storm of insight that we have become more powerful.
John Katz:Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals.
Do you even read Marvel comics? I'm going to assume you mean wolverine. Who, BTW, is not a mutant wolverine, but a mutant human named wolverine. And his claws are retractable. Of course he can drink beer with his friends. Of course a long time reader such as yourself should be able to count the number of times on one hand that we've seen Wolverine drink beer. He smokes cigars and drinks the occassional hard liquor. My guess is Canadian whiskey. You do know he's from Canada, right?
John Katz:Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics.
Huh?
John Katz:We seem to constantly be turning backwards to myths for inspiration and entertainment, while we are busy making the myths of tomorrow but don't really know which ones will take.
Again, could you please explain what Myths you are talking about. You mean mythology like Greek, Norse and biblical tales? Please show me where in the bible I can find a masked superhero with arachnid powers.
Check out some of the works of CS Lewis for some amazing insight on myth. He understood how myth fits into reality better than anyone else I've ever heard. I can't find any direct references right now, but he has a number of essays on the topic.
Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens
I thought Spiderman lived in Chelsea. Please correct me if I am wrong. My whole world is warped.
I was thinking of how to intentionally fail my drug test... It would make a good memoir story someday.
The below post was Necromancer's, but it is extremely important to point out this illegal act of Katz's:
/. earlier today.
I couldn't help but notice that Mr. Katz is not using his original thoughts, but plagirizing from an article posted here on
Mr. Katz's quote:
most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga,
Quote from NY Times article, posted here [nytimes.com]:
and perhaps inwardly suspecting that the whole elephantine system is rotten.
Geez, stop stealing others' stuff and get an original thought, will ya?
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
Considering your built your quasi-career out of being a nerdy, alienated teenage boy, its startling how little you know about the comics you're writing about. 40 years of spiderman comics are quite a bit deeper than ~8 hours of pulp sci-fi.
I can give many examples, but hey, you haven't known what the hell you're talking about before, why try to correct you now? Just compare screenplays and start babbling.
Oh, and Jon, you're not going to get bit by a radioactive spider, and you're not going to test positive for midocholrians. The high school bullies will always be able to kick your ass, and you'll always be powerless to stop them. Sleep tight.
He repetidly make the clasic error of assuming that identification of a problem is the same as fixing it
Chomsky's ideas on how to fix it have always been there: stop the lies and duplicity in the government, hold yourself to the same standards you hold everyone else to, and never never never suspect for one meager moment that you will get away with your crimes. It is strange to see mention on Chomsky's name on a posting about pop culture and movies, but Chomsky definitely deserves a place in theYeah, this pretty much was a rant, but thought some of this b.s. should have been labelled as such.....
...we are from the government - we are here to help...
This guy... JK must be a pseudonym for someone else, somebody must be writing and then throwing the JK by-line on the article... I say this because there is no way that a rational human can be this far out-of-touch with his subject. A quick scan of the postings here will show the general wrath JK incites (thank God there are no public appearances scheduled for this guy); I would have to agree with the majority of them - JK doesn't have a clue as to what he is writing about.... I don't think JK is a real person, just an Anonymous Coward's screen name.
...we are from the government - we are here to help...
The Spider-Man story is pretty basic, especially when compared to the lumbering twists and turns of Star Wars: wimpy outer-borough kid contracts enormous powers, learns to use them wisely and well, faces terrible danger, sacrifices much.
Actually this is the Star Wars story as well. First trilogy: Anakin contract enormous powers (the Force), learns to use them, succumbs to evil. Second trilogy: Luke contracts enormous powers (the Force), learns to use them wisely and well, faces terrible danger, and redeems his father.
Of course there's some other themes, like man vs. technology, but I'd say the main theme of Star Wars is similar to the main theme of Spider-Man. Spider-Man and Star Wars were inspired by similar source materials as well: a comic book for the former, matinee serials for the latter.
Please post a spoiler warning if you're going to give away the plot of Episode 7! :-)
For once, a semi-decent read from Mr. Katz.. right up to this point:
Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales
For the record, the only real 'restrictive' code that comics have ever had was implemented in the 1950's, known as the Comics' Code Authority. This was a voluntary system, similar to modern movie ratings in the US today. It was brought in for the same reasons - the government was ready, willing, and able to deal with the issue itself, and the industry stepped up to the plate first.
Spider-Man and the X-Men weren't even a glimmer in Lee/Ditko/Kirby's collective eyes when the Code was introduced; what Katz is talking about here is beyond me. The bulk of early Marvel comics, well into the 1980's if not further, were highly sanatized due to the Code. Yes, they had some revolutionary stories, but they were 100% in compliance with the Code (or they wouldn't have gotten any decent distribution).
The only mainsteam comic to not abide by the Code until rather recently was, oddly enough, Spider-Man. Marvel did a 2 issue storyline involving drug use in the 70's - considered quite controversial at the time, and would never have passed the Code's strict standards. Marvel took a risk and released the issues without the Code approval on them. After that, it wasn't until the 80's at least, and moreso the 90's, before we really saw any comics without the Code prominent on their covers.
Now, the Code itself has changed radically over the years, and a lot of things in your average 'tame' comic these days would have been strictly forbidden in the 60's... but regardless, saying that Spider-Man and the X-Men did ANYTHING before the Code is not only false, it does a disservice to the original creators. Marvel in the early 60's managed to put out some amazing ideas, all while toeing the line nicely with the Comics' Code.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
... is NOT part of a weekend! Thus, all the fanboys that are going out to see Star Wars in the first one or two days are actually hurting the 'opening weekend' total... So no shit that the opening weekend will be less.
hmmm, the real spiderman story seems anything but simple. Having the love of your life kidnapped by a crazy billionaire, and then by his son (a former good friend).
Getting a super alien bio-suit, only to find out that it's eating you alive (well kinda) and then to have it show up on your ol' pal eddy brock turning him into your worst nightmare.
Having all sorts of crazy mutations and trying to work as a photographer for a guy who hates your guts.
Sure maybe if you just read one issue, it doesn't have all the crazy plot twists. But if you look over the whole spiderman story (as you should with the Star Wars story) it is filled with many suprises and lots of other funky stuff.
They're just two different genre's. Star Wars wouldn't do well as a comic book (which is why it sells as novel's) and spidey is great as a comic, but wouldn't be as a novel.
This is left as an exercise for the reader.
who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there
I don't think you were, the Golden age was way the hell back with World War II. Spiderman, and the rest of the popular Marvel comics of today are from the Silver age, which actually ended with the story that the move was about.
but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales.
The rating system was more to do with the horror comics and crime comics that were coming out at the time, rather than the superhero comics, and the system was put in pretty much in the fifties, during the McCarthy years. I'm not sure, but I think all of the superhero comics from Marvel were CCA approved, with the exception of the "Goblin's Last Stand Issues" around Amazing Spider Man 96-99. But that was because of drug use in the issues.
Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals.
Ahem... claws. Greatest Canadian Superhero of all time, please don't goof him up.
Enough Comic Book guy stuff...
Peter Parker isn't as deep as the Skywalker brothers and Uncle Ben is no Obi-Wan. But as the box office receipts demonstrate, the writers at Marvel comics have held their own when it comes to myth-making. Sometimes, simpler is better.
Huh? A) who are the Skywalker brothers? B) What? Not as deep? Both are as shallow as kiddie pools.. movies made to sell merchandise.. don't get me wrong they're both fun and entertaining movies, but Starwars is based of crappy "Flash" serials from the 40's. It's not very deep. Good is good, evil is evil. And you can tell because the bad guy wears black and the good guy wears white. I understand your point about myth being more easily understood and entertaining, but isn't that obvious? People in general don't like to sit there going, "Huh?" after a movie. In terms of Sci-fi/fantasy movies as an artform there are a number that aren't as commerically successful as Spider-man, or the Starwars franchise, but they are equally as entertaining and slightly more artistic. Just of the top of my head, "Bladerunner" the directors cut is a much better movie than both.. is it as fun, no... but it's a better movie
For a couple of decades a loooong time ago, some American comics were subtly subversive. The truly inspiration Krazy Kat springs to mind. Then we had WWII followed by McCarthyism. The genuinely thoughtful comics dissappeared and the vast majority of comics, became revoltingly wholesome and patriotic, even jingoistic.
Far from being subversive, comics formed one of the most powerful and blatant mechanisms for establishing concensus. Had the government produced a deliberate plan to mould the minds of children so that they would grow into unquestionly patriotic and gung ho cannon fodder in preparation for the next war, I doubt they could have done any better. Try reading mainstream 50s 60s or 70s comics after "sed s/America/Russia/g" and imagine that you were looking at soviet propoganda. You would be horrified by the crudity and bias.
This changed later on of course, but how you can call the "golden period" of American comics subversive is beyond me.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
The opening shot with the sidekicks arguing as they leave the battle is an obvious pull by Lucas from this classic. The droids walk away from the escape pod after miraculously surviving the battle and bicker and fuss. Don't even get me on the General(Toshiro Mifune)/Obi-wan comparison. When Lucas starts pulling long focal length shots with lots of rain and horses, his title as the primo ripoff artist will be sealed.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
See the latest Godzilla movie for the ephemeral nature of 'hype', at any cost.
Whatever happened to JonKatz?
***Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance.***
Please get off of your drama-queenesque high horse. I normally don't have too large a beef against you, but even though relating everything to September 11th may seem like a higher level of thought, it's just unrealistic. Contrary to your beliefs, most people aren't strongly/directly affected by September 11th, and as such don't change their perception of diction in American language in response to the attack. Just because it happened does not mean that it must pervade every aspect of our lives, especially movie-going, and although it may have connections to our perceptions of evil/good, it does not define them. Although this sense of detachment may seem tragic in the wake of so many senseless deaths, it's the realistic state of American society... Weaving allusions to nonexistant connotations that seem complex and relevant is just a cheap way to impress less knowledgable readers... you should be ashamed.
But, due to editorial pressures (i.e. the "You want an imperfect hero? That'll never fly! And besides, people hate spiders! Spider-Man? Pshaw." response that Stan Lee received from his editor when he first envisioned Spider-Man), Spider-Man didn't hit newsstands until 1963, (at least in his own book). Lee had to debut Spidey in Amazing Fantasy #15 in order to slip it in under his editor's nose.
I wish I had a kryptonite cross, because then you could keep Dracula and Superman away.
wrote off the $114 million of Spider-Man as the American public reaching out for something to do. It had been a while since a good movie had been out and the time was prime. What does this say to the hollywood types who are shaking in their boots and shaking down "online video traders" for cutting into their profits? Basically it says that if you have a good MOVIE or good MUSIC(in the case of the RIAA -- these pieces are interchangable) that people will still spend real green money on your products in record numbers. And then you look like horses asses saying that the Internet "piracy" of media is killing you -- you say that with more money overflowing out of your pockets than ever before. Like Lars did when he came out against Napster -- it's ironic how people don't start "stealing your money" until you have more than you will ever need......When you were eating macaroni and touring in a van for Kill Em All' I bet you did not mind people trading your tapes to get word of mouth......(Much the same way that those suckers trying to get their $2000 film noticed for inclusion into Sundance -- would cream their jeans if they thought 1 million people where sharing their film on the net....But once that same film makes 1 million dollars -- then you better not share it..)
Greedy Pigs
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
wimpy outer-borough kid contracts enormous powers, learns to use them wisely and well, faces terrible danger, sacrifices much.
Star Wars plot summary (from me):
wimpy outer-rim kid contracts enormous powers, learns to use them wisely and well, faces terrible danger, sacrifices much. Repeat.
So, what exactly is so different about the basic plot structures here? Split personality/dark and brooding hero whos powers seperate him from those he wants to be with? Hero doesn't get the girl? Yeah, remember Return of the Jedi? Never shirks on duty to the common good, even though it may cost him everything he holds dear? Yup, got that too. Maybe you mean the Orphan Hero thing... Oh wait, Star Wars has that, too.
All the myth elements you attribute to Spider-man have already been explored, repeatedly and in greater detail, in the Star Wars series, and Episodes 1-3 are following the same basic lines you've outlined as well, with a few minor twists. If spreading it out over multiple films makes it to hard for you to follow, than you have no business publishing a critical analysis of the subject matter.
I've never been a Katz basher, but come on! This so called 'comparison' is absurd.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility..."
That's a uniquely American ideal? Hmmm. 'Cause America always strives to be responsible, right?
-- dR.fuZZo
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
This pseudo-intellectual BS about "myth" really seems to be catching on now. Even people like John Katz can proselytize on it.
The fact remains that the appeal of comic books is rooted in Biological Social Dominance. When humans who have a dominant drive, fail to achieve dominance in their social groups through the traditional means, (grunting, sweating, feats of strength, etc.) they do what animals can't; they try to find alternate means of achieving dominance and power: Money, Intellect, or even Guile - etc. It's what drives all fields of human endeavour.
Thus, the weak, sickly, sensitive artist uses his talent to create to gain respect and dominance, in a field which utterly rejects the unindoctrinated. (when was the last time Joe Sixpack appreciated Picasso?)
The scrawny geek learns a technical field filled with obscure jargon which favors his mental talents, and ignores his physical shortcomings - and all challengers to his 1337 command of his field bow to his might.
While we're young, and still trying to reach these goals, we fulfill these biological urges through fantasy. Fantasy is probably rooted in the function of planning goal attainment. But when the goals are unrealistic (having superpowers) - they can still somewhat satisfy the urge to attain dominance, at least in fantasy.
I'm not saying that all comic book fans are failures at attaining dominance. I'm saying that even the most successful among us have times when, even though they're well on track to achieving social dominance, still require a quick, temporary fix for the urge. Comic books are one fix. Video games are another fix. Pornography is another, and drugs are also. It may even be that obcessive-compulsive disorder is rooted in the drive to master some part of one's environment that one feels one does not control.
The problem with dominance and control is - it cannot be GIVEN. It must be TAKEN. For those who have this urge. Fantasy is the mind's way of taking control of one's environment at times when one feels not in control. Myth is rooted in this fantasy, and it's not much more complicated than that. So I don't see what the big deal is. Rah-rah. Joseph Campbell is da man. whatever.
Millions of scrawny, science-aware geeks idolize Spider Man, because Spider Man represents the ultimate fantasy: being the master of alternate forms of dominance (Art (photography), Science) - and not NEEDING to resort to the alternate forms, because he has super-powers, and can kick pretty much anyone's ass. That's why, in my mind, Spider Man has always been the most appealing superhero to me.
The justice, the heroism, the drama, is all window-dressing aside from the root appeal. You can tell this by how especially weak it is in the whole X-Men BS. Comparatively, Spider Man's world and life are much more strongly constructed. As is Batman, and Superman.
I find Batman hugely more appealing, because he has no "magical" powers. He is strong on a level playing field with other men. And therefore, does not have an unfair advantage of radioactive spider DNA, or being from another planet.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Every damned movie critic and self-imposed cultural commentarian ala Katz stirs up the old "Power of Myth" soup every time an iteration of their favorite superhero / space opera comes up in a conversation, and it's tiring. Everyone's heard it already and worse, it has no proprietary relationship to the fantasy genre, thus betraying an essential misunderstanding of the meaning of the conclusions on cultures' storytelling habits as explained by Campbell and more in-depth studies by people like Claude Levi-Strauss.
The point, as anyone of the anthropological bent who's studied this can tell you, is that the prototypical mythic elements play into EVERY story. EVERY SINGLE movie / book / play / video game contains the same damned mythic elements. There is no limitation to myths, superhero comics, or the latest Meryl Streep vehicle according to structural anthropologists who study multicultural storytelling. Check out Levi-Strauss' The Savage Mind and The Raw and the Cooked for specific structural analyses of the arrangements of elements in ordinary stories from entirely separate cultures that have no relationship to one another, and yet are, basically, telling the SAME DAMN STORIES!
The similarity of elements in stories says something amazing about the common basis of human thought, but such mythic elements are NOT the property of Star Wars or Spider-Man. Real understanding of the importance of mythic themes comes when you get out of fantasy or space and see it in Three Little Pigs, Memento, last year's Pollock, Lawrence of Arabia and every other tale told on the screen or anywhere else.
The only tool you've got against psychosis is experience.
The book is A Dog Year, about his experiences with 4 dogs. My wife is currently reading it, and I haven't asked her much about it, but every once in a while she laughs a lot, and every once in a while she gets very angry.
My wife volunteers for the SPCA, and we're both really pro-adoption and pro-mutt. Katz isn't - he likes breeds (and believes that a dog's personality is mostly determined by breed), and he likes puppies, and he thinks rescuing dogs is a fad (and possibly a bad idea, because of the dog's emotional baggage). He also believes in putting a dog down when it has a major health complication (he puts down one lab for heart problems, the other for cancer). These differences in opinion are the source of much of the anger.
His style seems to be the "personal journalism" that we all love - relating all the experiences without much censorship. For instance, he says that he bought a puppy from the mall, then admits that it is a lousy idea to do so (the dog dies young). He admits how frustrating dogs can be, and how tempting it is to hit them when they are being frustrating. He also admits throwing a ball into a flooding river, causing his dog to go in after it and get washed down the river. He jumps in to save the dog, then gets trapped himself, and his other dog has to save the two of them.
Again, I can't recommend it, because I haven't read it. My wife thinks she may be able to recommend it, but not to SPCA types. If you want a book for SPCA types, an excellent one is Lost and Found. The author, Elizabeth Hess, is also a journalist, and spends some time in an animal shelter. It hits all the interesting points, from euthenasia to puppy mills to the truth behind those AKC papers. I strongly recommend it to anyone who enjoys pets, especially if you are thinking of getting a new one.
I'd say it was semi-decent right up until the point Posted by JonKatz....
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Why do these pseudo intellectual elitists insist on agrandizing something as simple as a good movie?
I watched Spider Man cartoons as a kid, almost everyone I know did. The movie was true to the comic, had great special effects, the plot really worked well, and the characters and dialog and delivery was the right mix of real vs comic. Some of the treatment was exceptionally good, like the wrestling cage match & the first costume and added a modernity that broadened the appeal of the movie and character.
No need to bolster flawed archetypal myth stories to explain this. Spider man does not match an archetypal mythology, if you insist it does then I can make the same case about just about any movie, good, bad or indifferent.
Why don't you go pick a real stinker of a movie that bombed and explain how it matches some archetypal mythology? Because you'd look pretty dumb to most people, about as dumb as you look to anyone with a clue when you do it with Spider Man.
Luke refers to the Lars as "Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru"? His uncle would be his father's brother.
Couldn't Beru be his mother's sister? Of course, why then would she have left Naboo for Tatooine? (except maybe to get to the fringe of the republic and, thus, hide from the Emperor. Hm.)
And, actually, I thought I'd read that Shimi(?) married someone after she was freed, and that this someone was Owen Lars' brother. So Owen and Beru would be Luke's great-uncle, on his step-grandfather's side. Or something like that.
On the other hand, I could be remembering the scriptment completely wrong. Guess I'll find out next thursday.
If I am not mistaken, the comics code authority was established after Spiderman debutted (correct me if I am wrong please).
_ __
However, even during this oppresive reign, Spiderman pushed the edge of the code's envelope in every possible way. Flash Thompson who was Peter Parker's High School nemesis went to Vietnam. Yes, a comic book character went to 'Nam and they talked about the anti-war protests too!
Not only that but Harry Osbourne was a druggie who dropped a tab of bad acid. After the Green Goblin found out who Spiderman was and that Harry and Peter were friends it only led to a psychopathic move where the Green Goblin blamed Peter (and therefore, Peter) for all his son's troubles.
Add to this the fact that Spiderman was hunted as a criminal for awhile and you get some interesting stories.
Oh yes, Gwen Stacy who happened to be Peter's first big love dies when she is chunked off the Brooklyn Bridge. Before this, important even peripheral characters rarely died and never died in this kind of dramatic fashion.
At every turn Spiderman pushed the edge of the Comics code and out of it came a story that in many ways more socially significant and relfective of the times than the bland Superman and Batman comics of the time could ever dream of being until Denny O'Neil got ahold of the Batman franchise in the seventies.
_______________________________________________
ACK
One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex.
... This film (Episode 2) is going to come out and not do nearly what Spider-Man did.' He noted that his film will not be playing in as many theaters as Spider-Man, because 'I'm interested in a good presentation, so I'm insisting that the film be released in theaters with digital sound and good quality theaters. ... So you don't look to us to break any records.'"
With all these comparisons between how Spider-Man has done at the box office vs. what Attack of the Clones will do at the box office next week, I thought I'd point out that in today's edition of Studio Briefing (under the "Spidey Keeps Climbing" headline), "...even George Lucas has conceded box-office supremacy to the Sam Raimi film. In an interview appearing in today's (Friday) Toronto Star, Lucas complained that the news media have 'turned it into a contest and it's not a contest. It's an art form.
"Plagurism" is a serious accusation to hurl at a writer. It isn't the same thing as telling him he "sucks" or is "stupid." Ultimately, it can hurt his career.
I have read several posts calling Katz a plagurist because both he and the NYT used the word "elephantine" to describe something that was, well, elephantine.
The "evidence" for the accusation? "Elephantine is a big unusual word! And NYT used it and so did Katz!" Well, for someone with an small-to-ordinary vocabulary, "Elephantine" is probably a big word. But to someone with a large vocabulary, like for example a writer, it is not that unusual.
If both Katz and the NYT challenged us to look at the film from a "heterophenominological perspective" or something like that, then I could see pointing that out as too odd to be coincidental. But I think it is irresponsible to cast a serious slur on someone just because they had the audacity to use the word "elephantine."
God is real unless declared integer
Breakfast served all day!
The bulk of early Marvel comics, well into the 1980's if not further, were highly sanatized due to the Code.
Back in the 80s when I read "The Uncanny X-Men" I remember Wolverine killing people all the time. There was one series with him and havok where he shoved one of his claws through the back of a guard's head so that the tip emerged from the guard's eye socket.
If anything was "sanitized," it was the X-Men cartoon of the 90s. Wolverine was even more harmless than Jubilee, making sure only to use his claws on enemies that cannot possibly be harmed by them (Omega Red, Juggernaut) but making sure to growl threatening sentences and extend/retract his claws about ten times per episode.
Come to think of it, Wolverine in "X-Men: Evolution" is pretty much the same way. I'd really like to see a rated-R version of "The Uncanny X-Men," animated or live-action. In particular, I'd love to see a full-length animated or live-action feature based on the 6-issue "Kitty Pryde and Wolverine" series. That would rock.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
It's probably worth saying that just about any story falls into a few of Joseph Campbell's archetypes. Some fit more, some fit less, but no story I'm aware of fits them all. Indeed, some of the archetypes are contradictory.
:)
The notion that Luke Skywalker is a Campbellian hero apparently wasn't talked about until years after A New Hope was made. Still, that doesn't mean there aren't Campbellian elements...Anakin fits this, too. After he becomes Vader and his son overthrows him, it's likely that episodes 7, 8, and 9 would detail Luke's fall to the Dark Side, and another Jedi rising up to defeat him. It's cyclical, but that's part of the myth.
Some of these elements overlap with Spider-Man. Then again, maybe it's just a coming-of-age story with web-slingers. I dunno.
Here's my brief dissertation on the literary value of Spider-Man...hopefully I'll get less flames than Jon Katz.
--ryan.
Don't say, "don't quote me," because if no one quotes you, you probably haven't said a thing worth saying.
And he's an idiot. Spider-Man raised the bar? What utter tripe. I didn't hate the movie, but it did have a certain obviousness, a clunky awkwardness of the actors and their characters, and a very clearly predictable (to the point foreshadowing wasn't even required... you could predict that too...) plot. It was okay escapist entertainment, but it was hardly the reinvention of the Mythic Tale.
Even X-men which was also escapist fantasy had more of a story to tell, the characters had a bit more emotional depth and the actors did a better job of bringing the roles to life. Of the two, it was clearly the better movie. The Villain in it was twisted, but there was at a strong element of sympathy there - even the heroes had to consider the agenda he was espousing in order to reject it.
And if you want the reinvention of the myth, I think Unbreakable was the best telling of a rethought pulp comic/mythic tale I've seen in a long time (let's ignore LOTR for this discussion, it also was good). It brought to life the American superhero character with all the mythic overtones in a way that was both sophisticated and absorbing. Of course, much of that would be lost on the Spider Man fans, and maybe on Katz too, but since when is having a bit of substance or depth a bad thing? Since when is it raising the bar to produce the entertainment equivalent of pablum?
Anyone who thinks Spider Man raises the bar for mythic stories even on the Hollywood Big Screen seriously needs to get out more.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
It's probably just a choice in Thesaurus feature the right click menu of MS Word.
Overall, the only argument i've seen in favor of the Star Wars/Campbell relationship is that they both deal with "the eternal struggle between good and evil". Name two movies that DON'T deal with that struggle...
Well, let's see, how about rushmore and, uhm. Debby Does Dallas?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
They did some editing after 9/11 (The origional climax was in the WTC plaza...) but the movie was basicaly completed before the attacks.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Campbell may in fact have failed to explain every aspect of every culture, but I don't suppose he ever tried to. Yes, there are some differences between cultures, values, and probably some of the origination of the stories. But at the end of the day, we're all human and have some of the same drives, weaknesses, foibles, and idiosyncracies which is pretty much a lot of what myth uses as a core element. I think you don't give Campbell enough credit.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
Shimi is purchased and freed by someone named Lars (don't remember the first name off-hand), whom she then marries. Shimi then gives birth to Owen. Owen is thin Annie's half-brother.
*** Quantum Mechanics: The Dreams of Which Stuff is Made ***
Must have glitched some HTML (... yes I should have previewed). The idiot I refer to is not Katz but the movie reviewer who said Spider Man raises the bar.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl.
My God, Mr. Katz, you make Spider-Man sound like some indie flick from the early Kevin Smith days instead of a summer blockbuster that Sony Pictures, Inc. spent over $50 million marketing the flick to the masses. How does it surprise anyone other than you that it made $114 million? Here's a surprise prediction for you: Spider-Man, AotC, the Two Towers, and Goldmember are all going to make $200+ million dollars for their studios! Wow. I surprise myself! Maybe I should go into internet journalism and write witty and insightful columns about how everything relates to the Columbine shootings and the alienation of nonconformist high-schoolers... oh, wait. That position's filled.
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
um, the director, the producer, the actors were all shocked that spider man did so well. they figured it would do fairly decent at the box office, but never figured it to smash the previous weekend record.
What I THINK Jon was trying to talk about was the demise of EC comics. In the late 40's and early 50's, they published a line of gruesome comics, most famous of which today is Tales from the Crypt. In the anticommunist paranoia of the 1950's, EC ended up shutting down under extreme pressure. There's a lot more to the story than that, and it's a very good story, but it ain't Marvel's story. Spidey was approved by the Comics Code Authority from day 1.
Excuse me, did JonKatz just call someone ELSE's work "pretentious and hyped"?! Has the whole world gone mad?
The great golden age of comics? Now you're milking a grumpy old man act? How many comic book companies' work could you buy in an average comic book store in that "golden age"? Marvel and DC and....? For a guy who writes page after page after page about how the ease of publishing online constitutes some kind of revolution, you're brushing off web comics pretty easily.
You were reading comics in 1962? Giving you the benefit of every doubt, that says you were born in 1957, and you're 45 now. So either you're lying through your teeth about this, or all your supposed identifications with youth culture are pretty suspect....
grep -ri 'should work'
I could be way off, but I think I recall seeing somewhere that Owen was not a Skywalker at all. That would make sense in that it would have allowed Vader to easliy find Luke. So he was hidden by Obi-Wan much in the same manner that Leia was hidden with Bail Organa.
Then again, I could be wrong.
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
Here is a neat little link on Uncle Owen
Work is REAL slow today....Ok so it isn't, I just don't want to do it.
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
Maybe I should go into internet journalism and write witty and insightful columns about how everything relates to the Columbine shootings and the alienation of nonconformist high-schoolers... oh, wait. That position's filled.
No, that position is open. The "Internet journalist who writes humorless and insipid columns about how everything relates to the Columbine shootings and alienation of nonconformist high-schoolers", well, that one is open.
leem
Yes, I've read it. And there are deeper themes in it if you look and are familiar with some of Doc Smith's less famous works, like the Skylark series.
One such theme is the deliberate evolution of humanity toward a superior form and mind. The original Skylark of Space is a lot more blatant in its exploration of eugenics, but it was written before WWII, before the Nazis made "eugenics" a dirty word.
Another theme looked at briefly is that of political science: how do you make an effective, good government for an interstellar empire? In the Lensmen stories, Doc Smith postulated that a good government would only be possible with an uncorruptible law enforcement and judiciary. (That's what the titular lensmen were in Civilization, BTW--incorruptible law enforcement and military authorities.)
---dragoness
And I'll bet 10 to 1 that the Matrix 2 will open far better than either of these two movies, and perhaps for the same reasons Katz espouses in this article.
Linux at home
It seems to me that even though it is highly possible that in the end all the hype will bring more money to the Star Wars franchise, that it was really the Matrix that stole the show with its grownbreaking effects and imaginative storyline the year The Phantom Menace was released.
Likewise it seems to me that the amazing camera angles effects, the easy-to-digest story, and nostalgic feeling from the comic has again stole the thunder from Attack of the Clones.
My conclussions on this is that even though Attack of the Clones as amazing special effects, there isn't really anything as revolutionary (in relative terms) to it, as compared to the original Star Wars. In other words, Lucas might indeed still have the force to make money, but the "grownbreaking" force I must say gone it is (as Yoda would have said).
Wow! I completely agree That was my second thought upon leaving Spiderman as I walked into the snowing mountains. My first thought being "Wow! Its snowing! Yuk!" Expecting to walk away from Spiderman pleased by the hollywood flick I expected it to be, but never did I expect to get a deep sense of the thread of Christ in the story line. "What matters is a new creature." Spidey was definantly a new creature. His enlightenment gave him the option to choose and he chose wisely.
believing the big bang requires a certain amount of supernatural faith
Yeah. He admitted it after the fact tho, in the Eighties when all the Joseph Campbell claptrap got dragged out for fun. To be honest, if Star Wars is our Nibelungenlied, then we could do much, much worse.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
This forum is reduced to children screaming epithets at the unpopular guy as they steal his shoes behind the gym.
I expect this from the acne-ridden Talkback recluses at Aint-It-Cool-News that Kevin Smith slaughters so effectively in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, but from grown professionals? How old are you people, 12? 13?
Although I have not seen it myself, the Hidden Fortress DVD comes with an interview with George Lucas in which he talks about how the movie inspired him to write Star Wars.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
.... of the myth in it! What is so mysterious ?
Take a look through Campbell's "The Hero With a Thousand Faces" and you realise that Luke Skywalker fits the mould to a 't'. The classic hero story has an amazing number of similarities between all cultures ... if you ignore it then people will mostly ignore your story ... rip it off and people will say it is profound and universal. And they'd be right. Even if you didn't know why.
As an exercise compare Luke Skywalker and Frodo Baggins. Both have lost their parents, must leave their home in a crisis, journey far, make great discoveries, return, but pay a price. If this makes you think that Lucas ripped off Tolkein then think of another hero. Say Neo from The Matrix. Also a man with no family, leaves his home in a crisis and makes great discoveries, then overocmes great evil to return but pays a price for doing this (dying and coming back from the dead), but must return to his people with the knowledge.
Read Campbell however, he is better at describing this than I am.
Bitter and proud of it.
Speaking of bets, I'll bet that when and if the Spider-Man franchise has spun its fifth movie, the franchise will be way more "elephantine" and clueless than STAR WARS is now.
Although I am disappointed in some of what Lucas has done with his franchise, let credit be given where due: the rarest achievement in cinema is the preplotted multi-part blockbuster film saga. Arguably THE GODFATHER was first, although Coppola could have quit at any time with honors. Most other series make it up as they go along. STAR WARS was the only prewritten SF saga until Peter Jackson came along with his Tolkien trilogy, and even then Jackson had the advantage of shooting everything at once and releasing at leisure.
I've always remembered it being Gremlins (1984) that brought about the creation of PG-13.
I checked IMDB (second to last item), and they also had the same idea, though, they don't confirm it as fact.
I wonder where we could find a definitive source.
I don't know anything except this: in an interview I just saw, one of the movie's executives said AotC is opening on 25% fewer screens than *Spider-Man* did, so he wouldn't be surprised if AotC doesn't beat the new record.
Let's face it: people were disillusioned after TPM, and the merchandise didn't sell like expected, all because it didn't live up to the standards of the Trilogy. Consequently, theater owners, like the general public, don't expect that much from AotC; and its opening won't match that of *Spider-Man*, not just because it's on fewer screens, but because except for hardcore fans people are going to be in no hurry to see it opening weekend.
Let's face it: Lucas probably didn't write or direct all the aspects which made the Trilogy great. This is evident by his Bowdlerization of those very films later, with his lack of understanding about how a small thing like Greedo firing first could change a whole character arc, and with his over-reliance on digital effects. Lucas has proven with TPM, and reinforced with AotC, that the only thing he's good at is special effects. His characters, his dialogue, his stories--they just plain suck. Great films are plot and character driven, which is why *Spider-Man* succeeded since it has a flawed hero with real love and loss, and deals with essential themes like the responsibility we have to one another, even to strangers. But TPM and AotC are all special effects with no good dialogue and hollow characters. My gut tells me with the first two episodes of Star Wars we're seeing the "real" Lucas, doing too much of the writing and directing himself now that he's old and assured. With the Trilogy, he probably took a lot of good advice and input which helped make those films meaningful. Today, Lucas is no more than the ILM special effects guy. He's just not good for anything else anymore.
Chasing Amy
(We all chase Amy...)
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws"-Tacitus
He certainly has a problem with it, and says so in the film in no uncertain terms.
*** Quantum Mechanics: The Dreams of Which Stuff is Made ***
I think the best analysis for Spiderman and the upcoming superhero movies (not to mention recent Star Wars mania) has little to do with the oft-quoted power of myth and the fact that gen-x'ers are now the target demographic because of their disposable income.
Hollywood knows this and has been greenlighting many projects that appeal to people who grew up in the 80s. Marvel has been trying to get into movies for ages with many failures like the Punisher, Corman's Fantastic Four, those lame Spiderman movies, etc. They just couldn't get a multi-million production going because no one wanted to drop that kind of money on tight-wearing superheroes.
I think we can thank Tim Burton for making the first successful and serious superhero film, but what is really going on has more to do with 80's kids getting out of school and landing jobs and starting families than some pendantic revival of the power of myth theories.