Slashdot Mirror
1394 Trade Association Adopts FireWire Brand
MaxVlast writes in that the
The 1394 Trade Association has adopted the FireWire trademark, logo and symbol as a brand identity for the IEEE 1394 connection standard in a "no-fee license agreement" between 1394ta and Apple. Apple has also granted 1394ta the right to sub-license the FireWire Trademark for use on products, packaging and promotion of the standard.
to read the crapple.slashdot.org page every day.
Woohoo! Now maybe people will start taking Firewire more seriously! Down with USB, up with Firewire!
Beef! Beef! Beef!
I don't believe it! the site was /. after 1 post! Ouch, that's gotta hurt
------
"And may your days be long upon the earth."
A professor at the University of Mississippi is giving a
lecture on the supernatural. To get a feel for his
audience, he asks: "How many people here believe in
ghostses?" About 90 students raise their hands.
"Well, that's a good start. Out of those of you who
believe in ghostses, do any of you think you've ever seen
a ghostse?" About 40 students raise their hands.
"That's really good. Has anyone here ever talked to a
ghostse?" 15 students raise their hands.
"That's great. Has anyone here ever touched a ghostse?" 3
students raise their hands.
"That's fantastic. But let me ask you one question
further... Have any of you ever made love to a ghostse?"
One student way in the back raises his hand.
The professor is astonished and says, "Son, all the
years I've been giving this lecture, no one has ever
claimed to have slept with a ghostse. You've got to come
up here and tell us about your experience."
The redneck student replies with a nod and a grin, and
begins to make his way up to the podium. The professor
says, "Well, tell us what it's like to have sex with
ghostse."
The student replies, "Ghostse?!? From ah-way back there ah
thought yuh said "goatse."
... cause that is what everybody calls it anyways. I'm glad Apple appears to have been cooperative and permissive about this, otherwise we'd see confusion about the burgeoning technology.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
But when will I be able to get a no fee firwire adaptor? :-D
There is nothing wrong with being gay. It's getting caught where the trouble lies.
I hope they keep the name "FireWire" for their 800MBps version. It is catchy and it rolls off the tongue, unlike *shudder* GigaWire.
I felt so much smarter calling it 1394 too... oh well.
Never attribute to stupidity what can be construed as a monopoly preservation tactic.
What a shame that Apple and FireWire are for homos.
1394 = 2 * 17 * 41
You are my fucking idol!
I was reading the PDF factsheet on that page about Firewire. It doesn't look like Apple is making any attempt to turn people away from USB and towards Firewire. With USB 2 out now, why does anyone need Firewire? USB 2 has a max data rate of 480Mbps if I remember correctly. I know a lot of video cameras have the Firewire interface built in but it seems awfully redundant to do so.
So, will Sony dump there attempt at branding firewire as i.link and adopt the standard? or will they try and go against the grain and keep 'their name' ?
Cause Rob Malda is planning to destroy the other tech news sites. That's why he made a Mac section. He is using his monopolistic powers to destroy little old MacSlash, while at the same time posting stories about Microsoft's monopoly in order to divert people's attention away.
Your job is to save MacSlash by visiting it instead of Slashdot. Thank you, and God Speed.
And on top of that, you got a first post! I love you I love you I love you!
I'm relieved - almost all of my film school students call any IEEE1394 devices "firewire" (a few of them used Sony's "iLink"). Now I no longer need to keep constantly reminding them: "No, it's not a firewire cable, it's a 1394 cable".
I can give in with a clear conscience!
Now, if only I can get them to stop calling XLR3 connectors "Canon plugs"...
;-)
What was 1294a? Was it just an older FireWire connection? Same plug but just not as fast? And I thought it wss 1295, or am I wrong?
BTW, I think USB2 has a much faster sending rate than the fastest FireWire. Why should anyone use FireWire? It's more expensive, it's less compatable, and it's got less devices for it (unless you could Mac devices as real computers).
The standard is called Camera Link and you can find a technical PDF on it with a quick google search.
Camera link was designed specifically for connecting digital cameras so, according to the stuff I've seen so far, there are line scan cameras in camera link but not in firewire, camera link cameras are higher bandwidth than firewire cameras (up to 2.38 GB), and camera link is supported by the industrial (as opposed to consumer and artistic) camera and frame grabber community
I don't know much more than this, so I'm not advocating Camera Link, just putting it in this discussion for those who haven't heard of it.
its like having an ad on every pc saying we're better because we get to name the shit you finally get two years later.
I want 2D games back.
Firewire is here to stay for video because all DV camcorders have firewire. However, firewire could end up being used for little else if USB2.0 catches on in a big way, which is not what Apple wants.
Bugger my anus!!
Hey, kid... wanna touch my "kernel patch"?
-- Alan Cox
And we were all just getting used to saying "one thousand...three hundred...and ninety-four...a".
Got friends?
Apple has never been one to do it. They make a computer with the most advanced GUI of 1984 and well beyond... and call it a "Macintosh." Is that a raincoat? a kind of Apple? some Irish guy? Just the most usable P.C. on the planet... but the marketing wasn't there to show the public what it was... and even the name didn't help. Similarly, IEEE 1394... what the Hell is that? People who needed cutting-edge DV connections knew, but the name gives no indication that it's a fast new connection technology. They should have allowed the "Firewire" name to be used if not from the beginning, at least a year earlier than now.
Liberate your mind in two clicks or less.
They'll add SCMS to Firewire and dub it "i.Secure". :-)
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
With all the patent nonsense we've been seeing, I first browsed that and somehow came up with this:
What?! A Trade Association claimed to patent Firewire in 1394 AD?
Don't throw your computer out the window, throw the Windows out of your computer!
The MAJOR thing to consider is if Windows will ever have support for FireWire, and the answer is NO. Why would MS support Apple by adding FireWire support? MS Windows will never support FireWire. USB2 on the other hand is expected to be in Windows XP SP1, whenever that ships. Since 99% of all computer users use Windows, USB2 will catch on incredibly fast leaving FireWire in the dust. Sometimes you Slashdot folk have to remember that just because you think the technology is better, doesn't mean it will catch on. Hmm, how long has the Gameboy had a black and white screen until they used color?
So, has Apple made an attempt to turn people away from USB? No, not unless that means turning them away from Windows XP, and I do not see that happening, not even with OS X which you can tell is aimed at Windows XP with it's XPish interface.
Okay, am I the only one who sees the irony in a 'lack of bandwidth' error on the home page for a trade association whose product is defined by its bandwidth?
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
How the hell is a comment about a "no fee firwire adaptor" (sic) 'Interesting'?
It was an attempt at a joke, and a very stupid one at that. Little more then a "first post" karma whore.
MOC: Mods On Crack.
Saying "FireWire (Apple's trademark), formally known as IEEE 1394 and also called iLink by Sony " was always a mouthfull :(
IEEE-1394 (FireWire, i.Link)
They must be running their site from a DV camera. Hey, at least they are using their own products!
The dogcow says "Moof!"
The page is down and the page in Google's cache is just 1k in size and contains nothing. MACSLASH HAS OFFICIALLY BEEN SHUT DOWN. Thank you Rob Malda for destroying the competition in a hard handed tactic.
its like having an ad on every pc saying we're better because we get to name the shit you finally get two years later
:-)
Clue: We live in a world where most people think Microsoft invented the graphical user interface.
One thing I worry about with 1394/FireWire is the incorpoartion of copy protection. I notice that the 1394 chipset from Philips includes the 5C copy protection. Sure, it can be hacked, but it's a pain in the ass.
In the USA, we like stuff watered down, like beer, television, and freedom.
FUD, pure FUD + 10% troll.
Now, read this, this, and this and weep!
>USB2 on the other hand is expected to be in Windows XP SP1
Oh yeah, that'll catch on just like USB 1.0 caught on when Windows 95 OSR2 came out (ffft... yeah, right...).
>Since 99% of all computer users use Windows, USB2 will catch on incredibly fast leaving FireWire in the dust.
Since 99% (as you say) of users already have firewire support why the f*ck would they switch all their stuff to USB 2.0?
>Sometimes you Slashdot folk have to remember that just because you think the technology is better, doesn't mean it will catch on. Hmm, how long has the Gameboy had a black and white screen until they used color?
All the real geeks knew the B/W systems were better because at the time you'd be lucky to play all of Sonic the Hedgehog without replacing the batteries. I could beat Super Mario World 3 times over and the battery light was still bright red.
>So, has Apple made an attempt to turn people away from USB?
And why should they? USB is fine for slow devices like keyboards and mice that need to be cheap, and don't generate a lot of data, and aren't likely to be hooked up without a computer being in the mix.
>not even with OS X which you can tell is aimed at Windows XP with it's XPish interface
Ahahah! I don't even own a Mac and I've never seen OS-X except for glimpses of it on "The Screen Savers" and I can tell you it doesn't look at all like XP.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
GTK is dying...
Long live QT!!!
QT is better, easier to program in and is the underpinning of the most robust desktop environment in the Linux world...
I could see Apple giving the trademark to the trade association to improve its visibility in the industry (and stunt USB2's growth while it can), but I can't see it "letting go" of such an important branch of technology unless it has a firm grip on the next branch up the tree.
Hmm, how long has the Gameboy had a black and white screen until they used color?
People who consider the Nintendo Game Boy inferior tend to ignore the fact that its backlit color competitors (Game Gear, Atari Lynx, and Genesis Nomad) were much larger and ran about four to five hours on a set of six AA batteries. The original GB ran 20 to 30 hours on a set of four. The current GBA with the Afterburner internal frontlight runs 10 to 15 hours on two AA batteries.
In the 6 months that I've been doing GBA development, the biggest problem I've run into has been the audio system's complete lack of response below 400 Hz. Thus my jungle tracks become drum and ... silence.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Slashdot is a popular target for trolls, spammers and others who generally interact with the site for purposes other than engaging in discussion about stories/articles/reviews/etc that are posted everyday. Taco and Hemos have set up moderation to let the 'serious' users of slashdot filter out most of this 'noise', and meta-moderation is there to allow users to 'police' moderation activity. Apparently, once a user has moderated and users have meta-moderated the moderator's scoring, Taco and Hemos review the M2 results and then can disable accounts which appear to be abusing moderation. This has come to be known as the "Bitchslap".
2 7 now that i'm at -7 and my comments default to -1. I'm not sure if this is
:\
.sig for a while yet in the case that the bitchslap is of interest to anyone. I'm still not sure if meta-moderation automatically invokes the script that cripples the account once enough users 'disagree' with your moderation of a comment, or if the script is manually run by slashdot staff once they become aware of abuse (either looking through M2 results or someone complaining). If it is automatic, Taco might update the moderation guidelines to spell out how slashdot handles moderation abuse.
I've been reading and posting to slashdot for well over a year now (since before the first public moderation system was put in) and it has become a daily ritual for me to read the linked articles, post comments along with others, check my user page for replies to my comments, participate in moderation and meta-moderation and otherwise enjoy this really good site. I've submitted stories to slashdot and even had two get posted on the front page (one about Carmack and the other about wireless messaging spam).
On May 10th I loaded up slashdot like I do every morning, checked the new articles, voted in the poll and then started posting on an interesting story. Since I have been posting on slashdot for quite a while, I've accumulated a bit of 'karma' and so my posts defaulted to a score of +2, but I have the option of omitting the bonus and posting at +1. First thing I noticed was that the 'omit +1 bonus' was no longer on the 'submit comment' screen. When I posted my comment, I was surprised to see it at -1. I went to my user page and saw that every comment I had posted over the last few weeks was now rated -1 offtopic and by karma was -10.
I had no idea what this was about so I e-mailed Taco:
> On 10 May 00 10:33:05 CDT, Jeff Burkholder said:
>
>Maybe it was something I said (or did)...
>
>
> My account had a 40+ karma until just today. Every one of my past posts that
> are still visible on my user page have meen moderated to -1, even those that
> are quite a bit old (example
> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=00/04/27/1242
> legit so I thought I'd bring it up in case it's not.
>
> regards,
>
> jburkholder http://slashdot.org/users.pl?op=userinfo jeffburkholder@netscape.net
>
Taco replied:
> "Rob 'CmdrTaco' Malda" wrote:
> This is the result of very bad moderation.
>
I didn't fully grasp what this meant at the time, but it was obvious that something I did in moderation had caused this to happen to my account.
As I went back to reading slashdot later in the day, I came across a post by Signal 11 which had a reply which said something like 'don't moderate down signal 11's posts or you will lose all your karma'. I started to find numerous mentions of users getting 'bitchslapped' for moderating down Signal 11's posts.
I did vaguely remember getting 5 moderator points over the previous weekend and maybe using some of them on Signal 11. I brought up his user page and started to open links to his comments looking for anything familiar. I found a couple that I remembered, so I tried posting a reply to one to see if it was one I had moderated (posting in a thread you have previously moderated causes the moderation to be reversed). Sure enough, after posting a reply, slashdot informed me that a -1 troll moderation was being reversed.
Apparently, this post is one that I moderated and may be the cause of the bitchslap:
Yeah, well, us computer geeks have known about black holes for a long time. What eats the other sock in your dryer? What causes packet loss in your quake game? Where do we all wish Jon Katz would go? There's a reason the IETF drafted some RFCs to deal with TCP/IP in space - they knew about black holes long before the astronomers and they're taking steps to counteract them now. As a sidenote, Cisco is going to one-up Lucent this week by unveiling a wormhole router - apparently they got miffed that they were being limited to the speed of light.
This comment shows moderating totals as: Offtopic=1, Troll=2, Total=3. The article was Black Hole searching in the Australian Outback. I guess this isn't so much a blatant troll as it is a weak attempt at humor. I think my -1 troll is subtracted from this total as I posted a reply to it to see if it was one I moderated. If so, three other moderators agreed with me that this didn't deserve to be +2 since it was not informative, interesting or even funny.
Also, there was this post that I moderated, but I'm pretty sure I marked it offtopic:
I'll agree with you that I'm underappreciated, but disagree on everything else. I'm not knowledgable on everything. I happen to hold an opinion on most things, and be knowledgable in a very few areas.. suprisingly like most geeks. I rarely hit +5, nor do I really try. I'm no genius, intelligent.. yes, genius.. that's debatable. And I don't have 3 jobs at various "major IT companies" - I have 1. The last part of that sentence makes no sense, so I'll skip it.
In short.. I'm just a normal geek who happens to like slashdot.
This appears to be in response to a flame. Can't hardly be considered on-topic for a discussion about the ILOVEYOU worm, can it?
So, I had moderated down a Signal 11 post as troll, and my account had been 'bitchslapped'. My first reaction was to be pissed. It appeared to me that what was done to my account was far out of proportion to any abuse that I may have committed. I then decided to just forget about it and create a new user account and start over. But, it nagged at me.
Eventually I e-mailed Taco again:
>On 13 May 00 10:36:51 CDT, Jeff Burkholder said:
>Rob,
>
> I went back and tried to figure out what I did that was 'very bad
> moderation'.
> Near as I can figure it was because I modded down posts by Signal 11. If
> this constitutes moderation abuse, I can accept having my moderation
> priviledge taken away (and a subtraction of karma).
>
> But what I am bothered by is the fact that my previous posts were all marked
> as offtopic and my default post is -1. I can't really think of a reason for
> my entire account to be crippled like this as a result of bad moderation
> (maybe this is the only method you have to disable an account from moderating
> ever again?). Looking at my previous posting history, it seems clear (to me)
> that I tried to contribute to slashdot in good faith and virtually none of my
> posts were moderated down as offtopic, trolls or flamebait.
>
> Obviously you run slashdot as you feel is appropriate [blatant ass-kissing snipped].
> I do feel like I should let
> you know how disappointed I am that you felt you had to take this action against
> my account because of moderation abuse.
>
> Well, I don't know if you'll even get this far in my note or even be
> interested in the opinion of one slashdot reader/poster. If you did, thank
> you for your attention.
>
> regards,
>
> Jeff Burkholder
I wasn't really expecting a reply but was surprised by this:
>"Rob 'CmdrTaco' Malda" wrote:
>Pater, this guy was another victim of the too-powerful-bitchslap
>punishing comment posters for bad moderation. Give him back his
>defaultstatus.
>
>Jeff: we were using one script to solve 2 problems: Bots autoposting
>comments to Slashdot (moderating down all comments to -1 and
>setting defaultpoints to -1) and invalid moderation (karma -1 and
>remove all moderator points).
>
>We just didn't have a better tool. You mismoderated, and I caught
>you. Signal 11 posts a lot of dull uninterested uninspired crap, but
>that doesn't make his stuff a troll. Moderating that way is an abuse
>of the moderation system: you moderated him as a troll because he
>writes dull posts and is a karma whore. Those are different problems,
>but they aren't trolling.
>
>You can get your karma back and you'll regain moderator access
>again, but think hard in the future...
Well, this seems reasonable to me. I don't really agree that it was moderation abuse, but I'll just deal with it. I was impressed that Taco replied to my mail and is willing to restore my account.
As for Signal 11...
A lot of people really hate him, I'm not one of them. Tell the truth, I get more annoyed with the constant comments calling him a 'karma whore' and other trolls and flames that he seems to attract than I really do with anything he posts himself. Some of his stuff can be kind of weak, obvious or trite and doesn't seem to deserve the moderation it gets, but he is always there with something to say on almost every article. Indeed, it does look like sometimes he is just posting to get modded up to get karma, but like Taco said, that isn't the same as trolling. And how much karma does someone really want/need? Once you get enough points, you can have a default +2 posting score, and I think it plays into getting moderator points. Beyond that, no amount of karma really does anything for you (no one else can even see it).
To be honest, I'm not sure what to make of him. He doesn't really seem to add that much to the discussions, some of his information appears to come right out of his ass and he comes off with a real superiority attitude sometimes. Maybe he is just a subtle troll that likes getting under everyone's skin and likes getting attention (good or bad). It's pretty subjective, but the moderators do love him.
He makes mention on his user page that he is aware of the bitchslapping:
UPDATE: It has come to my attention that moderation abusers
have had a new response from Cmdrtaco lately - -1'ing all
their posts and putting their karma to -10. If this has
happened to you, please e-mail me with the details. I have
found atleast two people, slashdot-terminal and blogan, who
have had this happen to them. If you believe you have been
"bitchslapped" unfairly, please let me know - I may not be
able to do anything about it, but I would like to start
journalling this kind of thing as it does say something profound
about the moderation system.. and that is kindof what
I'm famous for around here...
So, I've e-mailed him about this... not sure why. Guess I'm just curious what he'll say.
As of Sunday night, my account is still 'slapped' and I haven't heard back from Signal_11.
Mm-K, got a note from CowboyNeal that the mail server was down and he didn't get to doing anything about my account until just now (Monday morning). Now my posts are +1 by default, good enough. My old posts are still at -1 so it doesn't look like that will change. Interestingly, some moderators decided to up my -1 posts, so now my -10 karma is in positive territory. Thanks guys!
At this point I am pretty much satisfied at the outcome of this. I will probably leave this page up and link it from my
Signal 11 updated his slash bio:
Another slashdot reader has this to say about bitchslapping. For
the record, I have replied to him and we have exchanged
several e-mails about this. Those e-mails will remain in
confidence however unless he gives me permission to post them.
I haven't received any e-mail from Signal 11 as of Monday afternoon. I think maybe he has confused me with another user. In any case, Signal 11 has my permission to do whatever he wants with any e-mail I've sent him. For the record, my slashdot account is Jburkholder (28127) and my e-mail address for slashdot replies is jeffburkholder@netscape.net.
Ok, guess it's time for a final update (June 6th) now that this whole ugly business seems to be over. Even though Taco restored my account, I stopped using it. I had created a new account, "Fishstick" during this and started using it and for some reason I just kept using it even after my original account was un-bitchslapped.
I'm still not sure about Signal 11. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he had me confused with someone else when he claimed to have exchanged e-mail with me. After I e-mailed him again and he eventually replied, he changed his slashdot page to say that he had replied, where he originally said that he had exchanged several e-mails with me.
I wasn't too happy about this and decided to move this page to another address and replace the original URL with a page featureing George W. Bush. I have no idea why I chose that, I was originally going to just 404 it but instead linked to a reuters news photo. Well, reuters doesn't leave files in place for very long so after a couple days the image in the page didn't load anymore so I decided to change it to something a little more permanent.
It was that day that I was poking around in comments in the slash poll and came across a mention of stinkymeat.net where a couple of guys had left a plate of raw hamburger out on the neighbor's lawn and were posting pictures everyday of the state of decay of the meat. Dunno, I just decided to link an image off stinkymeat.net and say something like "got to be more appetizing than what you were just reading" referring to signal 11's slashdit user page where he left the link up to my page still claiming to have exchanged e-mail.
Sig 11 obviously figured out what I had done and posted the new link to this page in addition to a comment about the original page, something to the effect that it was hard to take anyone serious who acted as juvenile as to link to a page of rotting meat. Ok, well -- not my finest moment, but a) being taken serious by him was not a priority and b) he still appeared to be sidestepping the issue (wait, what was the issue again?) In any case, I ammended the page to get rid of the maggot-infested decomposing ground chuck on a styrofoam plate, and replaced it with my reply.
I'm still a little confused by what happened. Did Taco or Hemos single me and a few others out because of this one guy, Signal 11? It does seem a little odd. I'm inclined to think it was bad timing. A bunch of moderators got fed up with Sig's crap and went on the warpath. Maybe someone e-mailed Taco after seeing all Sig's posts at -1 and he just found everyone that had moderated his comments down and ran the script to cripple the accounts. I got caught up in the crackdown because I happened to moderate during whatever time this happened. I haven't heard about anyone else being bitchslapped, so maybe it was a one-time deal to fight-off some abuse. I don't know.
In any case, it's time to move on.
1394 Trade Association
No pictures but its a start.
get out from under your rock, man...for chriz sakes.
Ok....listen. There are tons of Firewire equipped products on the market.
And as for USB2, if you have even one USB (1) device, your whole chain will slow down to accomodate it...to take advantage of USB2 you _will_ be replacing all those legacy USB (1) devices you now own.
Leave it to Apple to not try to gouge other people in the industry with licensing fees.
Are you listening Microsoft? Sometimes you can make just as much off of good PR as you can off of lousy licensing schemes.
Besides Sony's "i.link" what other competetion was their against the name FireWire?
It's found here!
Liberate your mind in two clicks or less.
YHBT. YHL. FOAD.
I wouldn't be surprised if you see up and coming Macs with USB2.0 and FireWire (800mbs).
I don't think the two technologies compete that much. Everyone likes to make out that they are major competitors to each other.
I see it like this:
USB for your Printers/Scanners/Disk Drives/KeyBoard/Mouse etc, basically anything that is only usefull with a computer.
Firewire for your streaming devices, such as Hard Drives, Video Cameras etc. Of course there will be some devices that cross over but I don't think it will be that common.
Go out and get sailing!
Isn't that the same thing? Stupid name, but still...
Emacs: for people who just never know when to
Actually, Sony has been promoting i.Link as an alternative name because of the angst cause by the translation of "FIREWIRE" into the Japanese language. Culturally, the Japanese seem to take product and marketing use of language and naming much more seriously than Westerners...
In English, we can easily distort meanings and make allusions to fuctionality with the same words and we fluidly do so.. In the case of "Hot" refferring to temperature, trendiness or even sexiness all taken in an appropriate contextual setting; the English speaker is not likely to experience any particular mental anguish regarding the particular usage of the term.
In this case, "Fire" and associations with "wire" porvide a particular image of speed. In Japanese, the Kanji "hi" (-hee-) is literally *Fire* and quite dangerous. Associating that with "wire" possibly alludes to the quite frequent burning down of older buildings with less than adequate electrical systems (a whole other topic).
Unfortunately, due to access to world press the term "FireWire" or "fieyawieya" is widely known in the technical community along with the "IEEE1394". Unfortunately, as computer people are just beginning to become acquainted with video technology, few seem to have made the connection between "fireWire" and "iLink".
I think it should be called bonfirewire.
They go into escrow, of course.
One day, you'll visit the dryer and find them all returned, just like the airplanes that surfaced after disappearing into the Bermuda Triangle.
As for the bs affair, please keep in mind that enquiring minds want to know...but for the rest of us...we simply don't care.
not like LEENUCKS has any software that does a fucking thing with 12394698143294 anyway.
Y HBT. YHL. ESAD.
Does it mean that FreeBSD is dying and cannot catch any modern technologies like linux does? Or it just means that now the term BSD is to be applied only to Mac OS X?
You've seen it before, take a look at your Gameboy.
Apparently when they came to look for a really robust connector they decided that the Gameboy one fit the bill. If it can survive massive PFY abuse it should survive anything.
Of course, that might explain Sony's reluctance to use it, being tainted by association with Nintendo.
The USB connector, by comparison, destroys far too easily.
Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
So, will Sony contiune to call it iLink on their products? I think they used the term iLink so they didn't have to pay royalties to Apple, right?
MAKE YOUR TIME
Remember how, for years, Apple yelled and screamed when people called it FireWire? How they expected to get rich from licensing the name? How it's caused confusion for consumer, with the identical thing being alternately called 1394, FireWire, and iLink, depending on the vendor?
Just shows to go ya, you don't have to be a *successful* monopoly to be incredibly slow and inefficient and unresponsive to consumer interest. Wanna-be monopolies can do it to!
Cheers
-b
Sony is the one that calls 1394 iLink
Didn't Apple do the same thing for 802.11b? Being the first company to push this and effectively kill all those 802.11b "alternatives", it would have been a wise move to free-up the name "Airport" to prevent confusions with WiFi.
Apple did NOT create SCSI. Look here for the history of SCSI. Apple may have popularized it, but they did not invent it.
iLink is one protocol level up from FireWire. It's a standard for sending video over FireWire. FireWire supports both an isochronous mode for video and audio, and an asynchronous mode for devices that can wait, like disk drives. In theory, you can do both at once on the same cable without interference, although few do.
Ergh.
You're all wrong. Trust me on this - I've been writing stacks and designing 1394 hardware for a while now.
There is no difference between iLink and FireWire. They are different names for the same thing. Yes, there are two plug types. One is tiny and 4 pin, the other is bigger and 6 pin. The big one has power. They are both part of the IEEE 1394 standard. They are both FireWire. They are both iLink.
There is no difference at the protocol level. Trust me on this. I have had my nose rubbed in more 1394 protocol stacks and chipsets than I care to remember.
The main reason that this hasn't happened before is that nobody trusted Apple. Especially after their stunt where they tried to tack on huge royalty fees for every 1394 port (this after agreeing several years earlier to pool patents with the other people who made 1394 possible). They timed this particularly well, and managed to delay the uptake of 1394 by maybe 2 years, and in some cases, permanently. Basically, they were complete idiots and damn near shot off their foot at the ankle. I think this had a lot to do with the fact that 1394 isn't standard kit on todays PC motherboard chipsets. The royalties alone were close to the cost of the entire chipset.
It Sony hadn't stuffed 1394 into every camcoder on the planet, 1394 would be dead. Apple are NOT my favourite people. Greedy idiots.
---
>not even with OS X which you can tell is aimed at Windows XP with it's XPish interface
Wow, the ignorance in this statement is staggering. Isn't rewriting history to suit your needs great? MacOS X was out for almost a year before XP came onto the scene!! On top of that, to most people at the time "Windows XP" was a lame attempt to rip off the X in MacOS X.
From my understanding, there is already an "OS 10", so Apple had to use X instead of 10. Windows XP is supposed to stand for Windows eXPerience (whatever THAT is).
And while we're at it, Apple's interface is called "Aqua" and XP's is called "Luna"...hmmm... Oh yes, and MS ripped off the ducky icon too (which Apple has been using for years). Yes I know it's public domain clipart...but they could've included anything in their collection. Instead, they included the duck. Wow Microsoft, you're so creative. I wonder who was copying who...
"Never separate the life you live from the words you say." - Paul Wellstone
iMac 800 / iBook 800
Everything you say is true. Firewire is an infinitely superior interface--and more than an interface, an architecture. It supports so many things, and so much better than USB 2.0. BUT...
Replace "Firewire" in the above comment with "SCSI" and replace "USB 2.0" with IDE. Now, finish the "BUT..." BUT...none of that matters because of practical considerations like cost--whether the vendor will spend the extra money or the customer pay the extra money.
It makes sense for high-end and mid-range (but still costly) consumer electronics equipment like video cameras and more expensive "prosumer"-level digital cameras to have Firewire ports. In the former case it's necessary because we're dealing with video data which could saturate the bus and either take forever to transfer or get more easily corrupted in the process without the safeguards Firewire employs. In the latter case a person who's buying a higher level of equipment would probably expect the same sort of interface he has with his DVcam and other higher-end toys.
But for most things other than DVcams and similar equipment, Firewire makes no sense. We want better faster cheaper. That means huge IDE drives over smaller more expensive SCSI drives (unless you need what SCSI offers, just as DVcams need what Firewire offers). That means not using the better but more complicated and more expensive Firewire when USB 2.0 will work much the same.
So, most suitable items will remain USB/2.0 connected, with Firewire gaining little ground even after its speed bump thanks to the expense of implementing its more complex architecture. Aside from digital video cameras and "prosumer" digital still cameras, and hard drives for people too lazy or lacking in knowledge to open their cases and stick another IDE drive in (or people whose cases are too small, like Mac owners), there's not much place for Firewire. USB 2.0 and its future successors, however, are perfect for most things which could connect to a computer--hell, even cable modems now usually have a USB port or two, since it costs almost nothing to add; even though it won't give as much bandwidth as with a $10 ethernet card and some cat 5, it's there because it's easy and nearly costless for the manufacturer to add and easy for uses who couldn't install an ethernet card to hook up.
Firewire's cost to implement thanks to its fancy peer-to-peer model guarantees that it won't be added to many things which don't explicitly need it, while USB 2.0's low implementation costs mean it'll go into everything and the kitchen sink. In the end it's just a SCSI vs. IDE debate--one's clearly superior, but the other is "good enough and cheaper."
Apple saw the writing on the wall, which is why they're finally deciding to stop being so stingy with their catchy Firewire name. If Apple wants to get Firewire on more than cameras and overpriced external hard drives and a middling number of computers, it has to start working for it or else...
Chasing Amy
(We all chase Amy...)
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws"-Tacitus
USB2 needs a PC in the middle.
For example you can plug a firewire camera directly into a Firewire portable hardrive & tranfer data across.
You need a computer between the 2 to do that with USB2
Careful with the speeds, there.
USB 2.0 = 480Mbps
IEEE-1394 = 400Mbps
Where did you get 800Mbps from? : )
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
he's referring to firewire2, ie 1394b. And yeah, i agree, Apple will release it's next major hardware revision with USB 2.0 and "gigawire". he he. -0-
>How they expected to get rich from licensing the name?
Apple made money off licencing the patents, you drooling retard.
thanks for the info.
I should also mention that USB depends on the CPU for its work, while Firewire has controller chips that take care of this. This one factor is probably what makes Firewire more expensive, but at the same time makes a huge difference in a computer that is doing heavy duty work.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Not to be a pain about this, but I would be more willing to bet that the reason Fire Wire isn't as standard on PC's as it could be is that PC manufacturers (and users) tend to dislike a change in their standards, and like to keep everything. Case in point, USB. USB was an intel developed product (if I remember correctly) but it never appeared mainsteam untill Apple started selling USB only computers, then all of a sudden everyone was making USB devices. Even now it's ver hard to find a USB only PC, many still have PS/2 built in.
I'm sure the lisenseing had something to do with Firewire not being standardized, but I personaly think it has to do with resistance to change. After all, how else do you explain the continued (albiet rapidly diminishing) existance of ISA
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
I'm running out of PCI slots! I only have 6! My motherboard came with USB 2.0, but it's on a PCI card. Now I need FireWire? Tell the idiots at Apple to make up their minds!
Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
this is the correct info. Pin number/power are the man difference. the other post is foo.
iLink is a 1394 port plain and simple. If it is a four pin port then yes, it is not powered just like any other four pin 1394 (aka firewire) port.
If it is a six pin port, then indeed, it is a powered port.
Most devices have a 4 pin 1394 port on them whether they are produced by Sony or not.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
I see they are learning the true ways of the Dar... I mean the ways of the market. This gives them in essence, free marketing and at the same time (at least now) there are no restrictions on end users and the orgs that are part of the TA.
Total BS. Every Sony desktop has 6 pin i.Link ports in the back. Yeah the notebooks have only four pin ports, but if I remember correctly so don't the iBooks.
Seeing how there is hardly any six pin devices, does it really matter anyways?.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
Basically, they were complete idiots and damn near shot off their foot at the ankle. I think this had a lot to do with the fact that 1394 isn't standard kit on todays PC motherboard chipsets. The royalties alone were close to the cost of the entire chipset.
.25.
Are you saying that the entire chipset of a motherboard cost $1? Because that's how much Apple was charging in royalties for FireWire, until a very public backlash forced them to charge
I disagree with your assessment of why FireWire isn't standard on PC mobo's though. I think it has much more to do with Intel pushing Intel-owned standards such as USB and ATA (in spite of the fact that neither one of those is a true replacement). Had Intel embraced FireWire for the mainstream, then yes, we would see FireWire as ubiquitous on PC's as USB. But it was Intel's marketing strategy to position their competitor's product as being for high-end and niche markets, not for mainstream. Very shrewd.
I think for relatively low-speed applications (digital still cameras with small-sized memory cards, keyboards, mouse pointers, analog modems, and lower-resolution scanners) USB will do fine.
However, with CompactFlash memory cards already hitting 512 MB in size (and you know the Panasonic SD and Sony Memory Stick cards are going to increase way beyond 64 MB in storage capacity), the wide availability of FireWire port external hard drives and CD-RW/DVD recordable drives, and for higher-resolution scanners, you definitely want to have the higher sustained transfer speeds of FireWire connections.
Besides, how much does it cost to install a FireWire adapter card anyway? These cards are almost as cheap as USB adapter cards for older computers. And many computer manufacturers already include FireWire connections with the computer and many newer motherboards include FireWire support, too.
This isn't the SCSI versus IDE debate, because the price differential between FireWire and USB 2.0 is much smaller than the price differential between SCSI and IDE.
Looking at the specs for Camera Link, I don't think it will be popular.
There is one major reason for this: the size of the connector--it's essentially a modified DB-25 connector design. Compare that against the very small connector size for FireWire cables and I think for portability purposes FireWire wins hands down. Besides, at 400 megabits/second transfer rate the current FireWire standard is more than enough to transfer the entire contents of a 512 MB CompactFlash card to the computer pretty quickly.
Besides, the new IEEE-1394b standard for FireWare will double the data transfer rate to 800 megabits/second, which makes Camera Link even less attractive.
It used to be doable, but pricy, but on today's systems?
hawk
serial FireWire
USB 2 will aspire
robs the CPU
I hate Grammar Nazi's
Apple should let IEEE promote 802.11b as AirPort so that un-techies stop using that horrible "Wi-Fi" moniker.
pi = 3.141592653589793helpimtrappedinauniversefactory7
It was $1 _per port_, and chipsets probably cost in the range of $8 or so to make.
I only repeat what the internal feeling was amongst the 1394 community, and I think that feeling is justified. I saw a number of chipsets that were going to have 1394 mysteriously lose that feature around this period.
I didn't realise that dissing Apple would be such a bone of contention. I find it quite funny, actually. They've done some cool things in their time, and this wasn't one of them. A little objectivity would be a good idea here.
Flamebait=2? I didn't just make this stuff up you know. Get a grip.
---
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
I heard that they want to implement the protocol over wireless, and the engineers were geeked that they could call it Wireless FireWire (super cool, IMHO). Marketing got wind of it, was horrified by the "wireless" and "wire" in the name, and came up with Gigawire (Giga works for them because it's Gigahertz wireless).
Then again, the Apple world is full of crazy rumours!
Lies about crimes
Because it's parent post is wrong, and this one is right.
&# 12450;A 281;
I first heard about Firewire in 1994 IIRC. Apple had it for a while in their Advanced Technology Group, but it took Jobs to figure out what to do with it. In general, Apple's Advanced Technology Group and Advanced Computation Group kick serious ass.
Lies about crimes
I only repeat what the internal feeling was amongst the 1394 community, and I think that feeling is justified. I saw a number of chipsets that were going to have 1394 mysteriously lose that feature around this period.
Not so mysterious, really. Intel had been a long-time backer of FireWire, so the natural assumption was that FireWire would find instant adoption in the PC world. But a year or so before Apple started shipping the first FireWire Macs, Intel started grousing about how FireWire wasn't suitable for the masses and that USB and ATA were. Did it really matter to Intel if motherboards included FireWire? Directly, no, because all of those motherboards would have included USB and ATA, anyway. Where Intel stood to lose ground was in the peripheral market, where most manufacturers might start using FireWire chipsets in quantity instead of Intel chipsets. Intel had a chance to delay/slow this by a few years (maybe even kill it), and they took the shot.
From a business perspective, then, FireWire was only available on a small percentage of PC systems, and it was very questionable as to "when" FireWire would see widespread adoption on PC motherboards. Is there a reason to build for a niche market with a murky future (FireWire) instead of building for the market that 100% of new PC's will support (USB)? Of course most manufacturers/developers were going to build for USB over FireWire.
If SONY wanted to use the Firewire name they would have either used the English without modification (like USB) or spelled it phonetically using katakana. The real reason SONY didn't want to use the name was that SONY has a HUGE (I mean HUGE!!!) NIH complex. [NIH = Not Invented Here].
Actually, it looks like device to device transfer will be built into some newer USB 2.0 devices. I would say slave to slave, but it looks like it is basically an integrated master/slave controller chipset that will be available:1 06S0058
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011
It will be called On-the-Go and it is specifically to work around this problem. Sounds great to me, I'd just love to have a Digital camera and be able to dump it to something like an Archos mp3/USB hdd.
Now the Trade Association will be able to use the FireWire technology in their Battle Droids.
Moderators, why is the above comment only scored at 1? The poster obviously hates Microsoft (sorry I should have said Micro$oft). He has offered proof that would stand up in court (except against Micro$oft) that M$ STOLE shit from Apple.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, give the man some karma.
I'm not saying anyone has irrefutable proof claiming that MS did in fact, rip off Apple...though the coincidences seem to be more than happenstance....
But as far as OS X capitalizing on XP's interface? That's pure bunk.
"Never separate the life you live from the words you say." - Paul Wellstone
iMac 800 / iBook 800