Slashdot Mirror
The Perfect Store: Inside Ebay
According to the tale, an atheist
traveled to Rome to check out the Catholic Church,
and saw, through some odd gift of divine grace,
that the Devil himself was sitting at on the
throne of St. Peter and ruling the Church
disguised as a Pope. The atheist
reflected upon the paradox and then became a
devout Roman Catholic. Why? He reasoned that
only the one true faith could succeed with the
Devil himself in charge.
Leaps of faith take many forms, and none were
stranger to the world of the 1990's than the
possibility that people might buy objects they've
never touched from people they've never met and
send money to addresses they've never seen on the
basis of a bunch of colored stars summarizing a
community's collective opinion. Yet that's eBay --
and now anyone curious about the communion of
online buyers and sellers can turn to The
Perfect Store by Adam Cohen. The new history chronicles the purity of the founder's vision, the tumultuousness of exponential growth, the tremors of bliss rippling down the spines of the auction
winners, the purgatory of crashing servers, the
saintly trust of the masses, and the deviltry of
the few. Through all of these trials and tests,
the company prospered with a steadfast devotion to
a libertarian's dream of a frictionless
marketplace where buyers and sellers could engage
in a conversation to discover the one true
price.
The book is sort of a hagiography, although focused
more on the marketplace community than the
corporate leadership. Almost every twist and turn
of the company's history seems to depend upon how
well the people adhere to the vision of a
hierarchy-free community of buyers and sellers.
The company thrives when they make it easy for
goods to find the people who want them.
The book begins where eBay itself began:
in the vision of the founder, Pierre Omidyar. The
book follows him and then the people who join the
company by laying out a largely chronological
collection of important milestones, interrupted
every now and then with a tale of some quirky eBay
member. The author, Adam Cohen, may not speak with the earnest voice of a true believer, but he
is largely happy to describe the decisions with
devotion and reverence. This shouldn't be
surprising because he worked closely with everyone
at eBay and even had his own company ID badge and
work space in the office building. He obviously spoke
often to the core team and the history is filled
with their words.
But the book isn't a dump truck filled with happy
stories. The book manages to include almost all of
the major controversies that I, a casual eBay user
and fan, remember. There's a long discussion about
the decision to ban guns and plenty of talk about
the right way to handle pornography and used
underwear. Cohen also interviewed a number of the
disenchanted members who developed a love/hate
relationship with the marketplace run by one
corporation. They keep talking about quitting or
protesting or going somewhere else when eBay keeps
jacking up the rates, but every time the market dominance
of the company keeps pulling them back in.
The later half of the book is largely filled with
these controversies, in part because there are
only so many ways you can keep repeating details
about the company's phenomenal growth. The viral
explosion of new listings was the story at the
beginning, but after the IPO cemented the success,
the management had to wrestle with the bits of
evil that would drift into the network.
Most of the coverage of these battles is
straight-forward and carried by a flat tone
typical of journalistic distance. The analysis and
criticism are largely left for the reader to
assemble, although the parts aren't hard to find.
For instance, we learn early that Omidyar's
experience in the 1980's with the fat cat-friendly
IPO market inspired him to create a neutral
marketplace where all buyers and sellers were
equals. He apparently tried to buy into an IPO
only to discover that skinny cats didn't get to
buy at the issuing price. Back then, Omidyar was a
skinny cat.
But when it comes time for eBay's IPO, the people
on the company's throne skipped the chance for an
eBay-like OpenIPO. Goldman
Sachs got the opportunity to pick an opening
price for the stock, and the investment bankers
managed to find a number that left a lion's share
for the usual fat cats.
At the time, Omidyar, the other members of the
management team (Jeff Skoll and Meg Whitman) and
Benchmark Capital controlled a stunning 98.1% of
the stock. They quickly became
billionaires. Many of the workers made a few
million of that 1.9% divided among the rest, but
everyone else was left out. The thousands of
people who worked the bulletin boards, and help
create a cohesive community ruled by colored stars
got nothing. This continues to be a bitter point
for many involved with eBay from the beginning.
Money weaves a strange path in and out of the
narrative. On one hand, marketplaces are all about
price discovery. The only reason to list an item
on eBay is to get money. On the other, the book
gives the impression that it's kind of crass to be
into eBay for the money. The eBay folks are
supposed to be passionate believers in this
community ruled by colored stars. It's all about
community, we're told. But I guess if
you can't get IPO shares, that's what you have to
live with.
The book may be best as a sly bit of exploratory
surgery aimed at the strange desires in our body
that drive commerce and trade. Some of the
vignettes of eBay members are priceless and the
stories about the effect of eBay on the market for
collectables are not to be missed. Before eBay,
the members of the Midwest Sad Irons Collectors spent hours at garage
sales and antique stores looking for what many of us might call a rusting hunk of metal. There were even conventions populated by
dealers helping people find what they wanted. All
of the socializing and chatting intertwined in the
weekend swapmeets became history when eBay made
it possible for anyone to get what they want by
plopping down big bids. There's no need to go to
wade through church yards filled with schlock to
find the grail of sad iron collectors, the
swan-on-swan. Someone else is doing it right now... and all you need to do is grep the database. If you're lucky, there's no reserve!
At moments like these, the essential paradox of
eBay becomes clear. On one hand, we're really
after the stuff. We want the Pez dispenser, the
Hair Bear bunch poster or the Elvis jacket. Do you
realize how hard it is to find one just like that?
On the other hand, anyone with a bank account can
buy any collectable now. There are dozens of
every collectable waiting for buyers on eBay.
Purity of heart, steadfast devotion to the goal,
or indefatigable energy won't help you find the
Grail when it's just a matter of typing the right
number into a web form. There's no real scarcity
anymore if you've got the right credit card. Which
brings the question: if the items aren't really scarce, why would we want them?
The real problem is that eBay strips away the
narrative from the objects. Flea markets,
classified ads, and garage sales toss in stories
for free and this is what the dinner guests, the
friends, and the collecting buddies really want.
They want to hear about the clueless, the loopy, the obnoxious, the greedy, the windbags, the ditzes, and all of the other characters buying and selling sad irons.
Adam Cohen's history, The Perfect
Store, is a crisp, clean, and thorough
retelling of what made eBay what it is today. It's
a good story and you can't just buy those. Wait, I
guess you can -- and the publisher is willing to
print as many as the market will bear. Well, there's
another paradox: Maybe, if eBay can survive with
this many strange, wonderful and bitter stories,
it may be the one true thing after all.
Peter Wayner is the author of Translucent Databases , a book commodifying the protection paradox. It describes how to build databases that reveal nothing to the wrong people, but everything to the right people. You can purchase The Perfect Store from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to submit yours, read the book review guidelines, then hit the submission page.
would involve paypal
Hmmm. I remember the days before the web became popular and there were so few people on usenet groups that you generally did just trust them.
I remember sending real cash through the mail to someone in the states and they sent me a tape in return. Never even crossed my mind that anyone on usenet could be dishonest, as I read so many of their postings that I just trusted them.
I guess replace postings with stars and add lots of red tape and you have eBay. :-)
I'm buying my copy used.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
but seriously,
as an infrequent e-bayer (13+ to my name) maybe I missed the whole community aspect.
but beyond checking out someone's rating (are they crooks? are they auction kooks? Are they attached to some university and selling off old computer components? Did it "fall off a truck"?)
I always thought the idea of community was more of an extrapolation.
If I'm trying to find some old analog synthesizer of course I'm gonna check and see some auctions to find what the going rate is. I'll see some users names come up frequently and I'll see who has a passion for this stuff. Chances are we're bent in the same direction. But beyond the congratulatory e-mail and the negotiation of mailing addresses and payment methods is there more to the e-bay community?
It's stars, stars mean sales, and that's that.
Or am I just missing out on the richer tapestry of e-bay life that only becomes apparent when you have 100+, or 1000+?
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
...including an ass kicking. This "item" can be found here.
I was thinking about this the other day, i dont think i know of any other user based auction sites (uBid isnt user based) that actually have any worth while content. eBay is the only place i know of to go these days. anyone know of any other worth while auction sites?
yahoo comes to mind, but i havent been too happy with the content in the past.
Some E-bay items for sale:
Spammers
Goat Sex
Windows Boot Disk
Hollow Jesus Fish Ring
Various Linux
You really can buy almost anything on ebay...
Amazon has never posted a profit, Ebay generates close to $50MM in distributive (but not distributed) earnings per quarter.
Prompt hyperlinking and friendly service! Content was only a little stupid!!! Would definitely read again!
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
These are just a few odd things out there. When on eBay, search for words like "shit", "crap" or "condom" -- get enlightened!
Click here or here.
for example, all of you people who support emulation because you "cant find" the hardware bullshit, nearly everything in this 70+ system collection was found on ebay. im sorry but ebay has revoked the excuse of obscurity!
I want 2D games back.
Most "collectibles" go through huge buy-up/sell-off cycles. In the buy-up cycle, everyone sees that everyone else wants the item and therefore decides they need it too. E-bay has, IMHO, greatly accelerated this part of the cycle, for better or for worse, but the cycle has been around forever.
Just look at the E-bay auction terminology: to "win" an auction is to have bid the most. It turns into a game. Which is what the whole auction-to-the-public industry is based around, in fact. The "pros" (as opposed to the public) know that you don't win by paying the most :-)
Amazon is scorned by some /. readers because of their ridiculous patent on "one-click shopping." I haven't heard of eBay appplying for any ludicrous patents yet. Amazon, Yahoo, & others have auction sites too, but nowhere near the volume of eBay.
/. all have their own opinions & don't need to agree on much.
Besides, the editors of
I wouldn't bid without seeing a picture of the guy. 6 ft and 230 lbs might sound good but then you pay and he's only 5'7 and 150 lbs! And shipping isn't included...
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
Check out www.npr.org for a stream of talk of the nation's interview with Adam Cohen about his book. An interesting point comes when a caller named Rosalinda calls in and relates the dark side of ebay (which includes rigged auctions and shill bidding rings).
yea i stole your sig- whats the big deal, it sucked anyway.
The eBay I'm familliar with is one with lots of mis-labled/described items that are pawned off as other things. Knock-off items abound. Over priced shipping costs. Paypal/bidpay. Crazed buyers that pay more than retail for used goods. and so forth.
Yes there is also a lot of nice stuff on eBay, it is not a good place for the ill informed(explain to your parents why "they" got ripped off sometime).
As for community? People are in it for the money as others have pointed out. There is less interaction than you would find at your local drugstore. Once a transaction is done, odds are you won't do business with the individual again. A community involves interaction, not one or two transactions.
But these aren't unique to E-bay auctions, they can (and do) happen in almost all types of auctions. It's just human nature.
Heck, fraud happens outside of auctions too. At least E-bay has a feedback and delisting scheme in place.
Sometimes. Everything that I've sold on eBay has gone for much more than it's worth. I'd get all depressed about day 5 that I wasn't going to make any money, then the bots kick in and the price doubles or triples.
How much was postage on that $0.75 NIC?
--
E_NOSIG
EBay is successful because they have no warehouse, have no stock (merchandise), their customers pay for the shipping. So they have very low overhead and they get a cut on every transaction. Plus much of the sstuff you find on eBay you can't find at the corner store. As long as eBay is popular, they have a license to print money.
Amazon sells books and video. Any self-respecting town has at least one big-box bookmart like Borders (or Chapters/Indigo here up North). You pay good $$$ shipping cross-country what you can usually buy or special-order down the street. Useful for hard-to-find items, or for shipping gifts, but that's a niche category. They have high overhead and are in competition with local booksellers. Amazon is IMHO more in the pets.com category ("order pet food online! only $20 for shipping!") than in the eBay category.
Wanted: One witty yet thought provoking
OK, fine... we at Slashdot are a diverse bunch of people with a diverse set of beliefs and opinions. However, it's often possible to find an opinion or a belief that the majority of slashdot readers agreeon . Example: Microsoft is Evil.
.com.
Now, judging from the comments to a recent article posted about Amazon.com, one could surmise that the majority of slashdot readers (or at least a vocal minority), have an antagonistic relationship with said
Judging from the posts on this article, a lot of Slashdot users also like eBay. Somewhere there's got to be an intersection between these two groups. And by questioning how these people perceive these two companies, we 1) force them to justify their position and 2) learn about why people hold these opinions. I'd say that both of these are good methods for strengthening public debate.
Again, I don't think we're assuming everyone agrees here, just asking those who do to justify their opinions. Just because everyone can read the post doesn't mean it applies to them.
That's the aspect of eBay I'm most curious about.
Does the book explain it?
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
I know that classic arcade game collecting (the big vintage 80's games you find in the arcades) has been greatly affected by eBay. In fact, a great deal of the focus for online collectors IS eBay. Part service, part disservice.
It is easier to locate various parts that you are looking for to fix up your collection. But now it is also much easier for sellers to scam people, in this area in particular, with white lies.
White lies, to the seller anyhow. I am sick of all of the people who sell "complete presumed working" PCBs that are missing components. Or say, "TESTED AND WORKING! SEE PICTURES BELOW!" and yet provide a screen capture from MAME. Or even the "tested and working, sold as-is" that you receive and see that there is absolutely no chance that it could have worked.
What's better, they get away with it. The eBay rating system is hopelessly leaning towards positive feedback. You rate the transaction as a whole, and if you give a NEGATIVE, be prepared for revenge on your OWN feedback. (Personally, I think that the feedback should be broken down into sections, like product quality as described, speed of payment/shipping, etc.)
One of the most notorious arcade sellers (who I'll call KK1), didn't have a major feedback problem, yet they constantly sold absolute junk with white lies. They got away with it and got away with it, sellings thousands of dollars of merchandise. You couldn't tell it from the eBay rating, but in the USENET newsgroup, they were getting mauled.
After screwing over a large percentage of the bidders, finally the day came where almost NOBODY was bidding on what were previously very hot items. And that, not the feedback system, is what sent them away.
eBay may be good for some things, but I think in the case of classic arcade games, it has managed to take most of the market, and yet, screwed over countless buyers in the process. But I'm sure the sellers are rejoicing.
I was assuming they meant "perfect store" from the business perspective. They offer a huge selection of merchandise without having to ever buy or warehouse any of it. Really, they're selling raw commerce itself. Great for them. But definitely not the best deal for the consumer.
you can listen to it Here.
the part the above poster mentioned is around the 25 minute mark.
Please provide a link. Considering auctions.yahoo.com works just fine, and has no mention of this, I think you're making that up.
Please subscribe to see the more insightful version of th
Check out this notice. I could have sworn all of Yahoo! Auctions Europe was shutting down, but it seems to be even smaller than that. Just UK and IE.
Intelligent Life on Earth
I disagree that sites selling "commerce" like eBay are "definitely not the best deal for the consumer" for two reasons:
First: what eBay is selling is a MASSIVE decrease in the transaction costs (including search costs) of the items bought and sold there. Without places like eBay, the transaction costs for many eBay transactions would be prohibitive.
Second: since buyers don't pay any fees to eBay, I'm not convinced that eBay is taking anything from them. While its true that sellers might raise their reserve prices in anticipation of the transaction fees, I've not seen this in practice. (Most items I bid on are unreserved or have a very low reserve).
"The dinosaurs died because they didn't have a space program." - Niven
And its name is Walmart.
At least, if your measure is by sales. And their info system isn't too shabby either.
Well, it was £0.75 and the postage was a quid. A lot less than it would have cost me to go somewhere and buy it.
Granted the whole auction thing is a leap of faith, but it's not all that much stranger than many things we do. Just a different form.
Or maybe you dodn't even have the scraps - I have direct deposit, and then I pay for a lot of junk with my credit card (save on those ATM fees). At direct deposit time, some number called my "checking balance" is increased somewhere, and this other number on this piece of plastic identifies me, and then they subtract the purchase amount from my "credit balance" thingy, and then after a while, I log on to a computer, and send some of the checking balance numbers to my credit balance number.
Not to poke fun at the reviewer, eBay is interesting, it is a leap of faith and it is one of the few working models on the net, and has been making money since it's inception. Just realize there are leaps of faith all around you. the human mind does well with abstraction, large parts of our daily life revolve around that.
But definitely not the best deal for the consumer.
I completely disagree. Every item I buy on eBay is never more than I'm willing to pay. If that means I miss out on something, fine because I didn't want to spend too much for it anyway. Of course, you could say that about buying anything, I suppose.
I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
Feeble justification for missing my native currency follows:
Pence rhymes with cents.
--
E_NOSIG
www.ubid.com is kinda like this.. it's mostly (or all?) computer stuff, but if a bid is made in the last 10 minutes, the auction time is extended for 10 minutes. If another bid is made, the auction time extends again, until 10 minutes goes by with no bid. It's kinda nerve wracking, if you're the winning bidder, and someone else keeps upping the bid, after the auction was "supposed" to be over.
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
Tried contacting several times, got auto-responder with trite mimicking of ebay feedback.
Error: PANTS NOT FOUND. Press <F1> to continue.
The main problem that I have with Ebay is that people can bid one second before the auction closes and get the item.
Maximum bid is just that. Put in the most you're willing to pay for an item. If you win, great. If you lose, that's too bad but it went for more than you were willing to spend. I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this concept.
I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
My rating is over 100. I mainly use ebay to get jamma (arcade game) boards. The cheapest I got was World Heroes for $5 (shipping included!). The average price is about $40, the price of a console game.
Without ebay, I wouldn't be able to get all this stuff, no matter how much effort I put into it. But now it is easy to collect wierd stuff like that at good prices.
Community? No... I can't say I chat with the people etc. Like you, mainly I just 'what is your address/shipping?' and 'I got it safely, here is + feedback. Please return the favor.' Nothing personal/friendly really.
Still, it is kool in general.
"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children." ~The Amazon Quartet
I mainly collect arcade games off ebay. Average price ~$40. Do I care about how ebay makes it less rare? Or easier to get? No, that is a GOOD thing because it means I can actually get some arcade boards for less than a few thousand dollars. :P
:P
Strangely, emulation does significantly affect the price of boards on ebay. Macross boards (a japanese only game) used to cost about $250. Within the month of the preliminary driver for mame, the average price of that board went down to ~$95. The driver isn't even that good, and never has been updated. Yet look at the change. Hmm. Good if you want to buy the board, bad if you want to sell it.
"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children." ~The Amazon Quartet
I have a rating of over 100, alot of which is from buying arcade stuff. Of all my arcade transactions, only two boards have had problems, and one that had a deceptive auction title.
Yeah, some people have problems. But there is alot of good stuff to be had. To me, the many great finds outweigh the few lemons (and I am not rich!) I am just happy to get this stuff at all.
"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children." ~The Amazon Quartet
From: Pub-Enforcement [enforcement@ebay.com]
l and state laws, including the Anticybersquatting Consumer
Dear Domain Name Registrant:
It recently has come to our attention that you have registered a domain
name that mimics the famous eBay name and trademark.
As you are likely aware, the coined term "eBay" is one of the most famous
names on the Internet. eBay owns several registrations for the eBay
trademark in the United States and internationally. Accordingly, eBay
enjoys broad trademark rights in its name. For your information, in a
decision by the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO), a third
party trademark application to register the trademark "ebaysecurities" was
denied due to the USPTO recognizing the eBay trademark as a famous
trademark, and thus entitled to broad protection.
We are concerned that your domain name infringes and/or dilutes the famous
eBay trademark. Infringement occurs when a third party's use a company's
trademark (or a confusingly similar variation thereof) is likely to
confuse consumers as to the affiliation, sponsorship or endorsement of the
third party's services. Trademark dilution occurs when a third party's
use of a variation of a company's trademark is likely to lessen the
distinctiveness of the company's famous trademark. In this case, your use
of the suffix "bay" in your domain name is likely to lessen the
distinctiveness of the famous eBay brand. "eBay" is an arbitrary and
fanciful trademark; neither "eBay" nor "Bay" describe online trading or
e-commerce in any way. Therefore, it is likely that you chose your domain
name to evoke eBay's famous brand.
We take these matters quite seriously. As you may know, we settled a
dispute similar to this one against a company using the name
www.bidbay.com . BidBay has agreed to change its
domain name, company name, and to pay eBay an undisclosed sum of money.
Attached for your information is a news account of the settlement.
More information on trademark law may be found at
http://www.fplc.edu/tfield/aVoid.htm.
Federa
Protection Act of 1999 ()
provide for serious penalties (up to $100,000) against persons who,
without authorization, use, sell, or offer for sale a domain name that
infringes or dilutes another's trademark. Infringers who have been
notified of such infringing activity, but do not cease their
infringements, may also be considered "willful" and could be subject to
additional money damages and liability for attorney's fees. Having
received this e-mail, you are on such notice.
Trademark protection is very important to eBay. In addition to the
Bidbay.com case, we have filed several successful federal court actions
against cybersquatters. We have also filed more than six proceedings
before the United Nation's World Intellectual Property Organization's
arbitration panel; all cases order the transfer of the domain names at
issue to eBay.
While eBay respects your right of expression and your desire to conduct
business on the World Wide Web, eBay must enforce its own rights in order
to protect its valuable and famous name. We appreciate that you may have
registered the above-mentioned domain with the best of intentions and
without full knowledge of the law in this area. Nonetheless, under the
circumstances, we must insist that you stop using the domain name, do not
sell, transfer or offer to sell the domain name to any other person, and
simply let the domain name registration expire.
Please confirm by replying to this email that you will comply as
requested. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.
Edith
eBay Legal Department
So what was the site? It was a fan-site for A Tale in the Desert, called www.egyptbay.com.
p.s. A tale in the desert is in open beta - check it out - VERY cool.
I certainly hope so. Yahoo's auction service is terrible. It's not like ebay is terribly secure or safe to use, but Yahoo doesn't even make a flailing attempt towards security. A buyer can only email the seller if the seller agrees to it. If the buyer thinks the seller has cheated him, the buyer can file a protest (sortof like negative feedback). The catch is, the buyer can only do this twice in his lifetime. :P Utterly rediculous.
Not to mention the huge number of bugs in the system. When I clicked on the 'file protest' or 'add a comment about this item' buttons, my browser would protest "undefined.warehouse.yahoo.com" not found (backend forgot to fill in hostname). The help link pointed to http:///help/buy (another hostname the backend forgot to fill in). All in all, it just had the feel of something that wasn't finished or fully tested.