PalmOS 5 Turns Gold

Stalke writes: "On sunday, PalmSource (the spinoff from Palm responsible for the development of the PalmOS) announced that PalmOS 5 has gone gold. This latest version of the operating system includes support for ARM processors, Bluetooth and 802.11b, high-res displays (320x320; although Sony already uses even high res displays in its NR70) and more. Products with PalmOS 5 should start shipping in just over a months' time!"

Comments

Poor Palm.

[yasth]

Wow first Moz now this. What next HURD getting done?

Re:Upgrade???

[Sorthum]

Unfortunately, those of us with Handsprings can't upgrade OSes-- every time Palm comes out with a new OS, we have to buy a new PDA to go with it...

Is evolution inevitable?

[CaptainZapp]

Call me a ludite, but as an avid Palm user (Vx) this might well be a step backwards.

The thing I love most about the Palm and the PalmOs is that it works, that it's extremely simple and that it's extremely reliable.

I didn't like when they introduced colour and I care even less for all the fancy features promised with PalmOS 5.

Frankly, if the only direction is more colours, better resolution, more MP3, full feature video and other such assorted crap, then I guess it's time to ditch the Palm and go for a Symbian smart phone.

At least then, when the good old b&w simplicity of the V series is no more supported.

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[cdipierr]

I think you're confusing the OS /w the specific designs of a given OEM. There's nothing in OS/5 that would prevent an OEM from coming out with a Palm V-like device (although they'd likely use an ARM chip for better performance).

You're not likely to see one, of course, since OEMs seem to believe that people want all the stuff that's packed into PocketPC (which is color, hi-res, MP3, etc).

But don't blame PalmSource for creating an OS that the majority of PDA OEMs want. Instead, lobby Palm Inc. (which is a separate company) or Sony or Handera to create a device like you want.

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[Sorthum]

Color accomplished little as I see it. Sure, it looks pretty, but I don't NEED my appointments and phone numbers to look pretty. I want something that won't eat battery life-- which brings up another point.
The older Palms used standard alkaline batteries, lasted months on them. The newer ones need special power packs and chargers-- makes taking one on a week long hike a bit of an exercise.

Now we have an entirely new OS that requires still more beefed up battery packs and fancy electronics-- and I STILL just use it for appointments and phone numbers.

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[kisrael]

Ok, you're a luddite.

Not really, though: I see where you're coming from, but I think the real key to Palm's wonderful simplicity is in its UI. Color Palms, for better or worse, don't make tremendous use of color--generally just getting better readability and color icons, and of course allowing games and image viewers and what not to be in color. The UI is the same, and for my money is about as simple and reliable as ever.

Same thing with "more colours, better resolution, more MP3, full feature video": if there are seperate MP3 and video apps, and the UI is the same as always (without CE's "i think i'm a small desktop" mistakes, and "Aqua"-like "enhancements") then what does it hurt?

It's always a set of trade-offs. If you want really robust, really simple, you mighta been happy with one of those old school keyboard/character based PDAs...a few even offer synching to the desktop. Palm needs to keep pushing its capabilities, since eventually those gee-whiz features will be cheap enough (in terms of battery life and usability) to make sense.

Of course, the super hightech feature I'm really jonesing for is a clipboard that can hold an entire memo (and maybe ditch the 4k memo limit while they're at it...) I mean, Microsoft finally made Notepad so it didn't choke on 32K files, can't Palm do the same?

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[bark76]

It's up to the Licensees as to what they do with their devices. You aren't going to see everyone oftering top of the line 320X320, 16 bit colour devices that play MP3s and video. The OS is scalable enough that Palm Vx devices can still be released. Palm, Inc has their m1XX line up of 'affordable' devices, what makes you think that they'll go cold turkey on those?

What we'll see from the release of this OS is a greater range of hardware available, all running the same OS.

Plus it's got 128 bit encryption, gotta be happy that they're adding security features.

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[carlos_benj]

The newer ones need special power packs and chargers-- makes taking one on a week long hike a bit of an exercise.

Yep. Sure do hate missing those appointments while on a week long hike. And isn't hiking for a week exercise enough?

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[mbyte]

Funny, my palm Vx is working as an alarm clock right now, because if its "relibity" ...

I never had so much problems with hardware like the Vx ... first defetive DRAM, the software patch never worked for me correctly with palmos 3.0, it did crash all the time, with palmos 4.0 it seems a litte more stable.

Then the digitizer goes mad every now and then, which is very annoying to reset :( (if you tap on the screen and the pixel is 30 pixel below, it sucks if you want to hit the top line ;)

Third, the harware ... the buttons wore out fast, i have trouble pushing the on button now, yay.

for me .. never buy a palm again, sorry palm, not that way ...

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[Drakonian]

Of course, the super hightech feature I'm really jonesing for is a clipboard that can hold an entire memo (and maybe ditch the 4k memo limit while they're at it...) I mean, Microsoft finally made Notepad so it didn't choke on 32K files, can't Palm do the same?

There is a Hackmaster hack to do this: ClipHack

From the description:
Expand the PalmPilot clipboard from 1000 to over 28000 characters. Provides the ability to paste partial clipboard if full clipboard text will exceed field size. As a bonus, ClipHack provides instant word and character count when cutting or copying large text.

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[Sorthum]

I use mine as an ebook reader, too-- there's something nice about having a few good books (such as field guides) with you on an excursion...

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[kisrael]

Fair enough point about suped up features leading to less battery life, but for the time being at least Palm is keeping up with lowend models that probably have pretty much the same balance of features (battery life vs gizmos) as the earlier models.

Like other people are pointing out, it's all about tradeoffs...with batteries being the single biggest slow-to-improve technology stumbling block. Chemical batteries just haven't advanced the way other parts of PDAs have over the past decade or so.

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[i0lanthe]

Of course, the super hightech feature I'm really jonesing for is a clipboard that can hold an entire memo (and maybe ditch the 4k memo limit while they're at it...)

The things I'd care about are even less flashy... like heap size, segments, and display API.

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[Bilestoad]

Just like PalmOS, the Palm marketroids can't keep up. They claim in their PalmOS 5 "advantages" chart that there is no Pocket PC device with integrated wireless. iPaq 3875 anyone?

Fine, compare features, but why lose credibility by publishing outright lies?

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[jeffehobbs]

Funny, my palm Vx is working as an alarm clock right now, because if its "reliabity"

I know you don't mean it that way, but I would say that is actually pretty much the highest complement you could give an ostensibly "reliable" electronic device. I can't think of a single other piece of electronics that I depend on to function properly, day after day, with no configuration or upkeep, more than an alarm clock.

~jeff

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[firewood]

The thing I love most about the Palm and the PalmOs is that it works, that it's extremely simple and that it's extremely reliable.

Frankly, if the only direction is more colours, better resolution, more MP3, full feature video and other such assorted crap, then I guess it's time to ditch the Palm and go for a ...

PalmOS 5's main purpose is to support ARM processors. ARM processors generally have a better MIPS/mW efficiency, and can thus run native apps using less power, which should result in greater battery life for the simple reliable PIM apps, which will still be there. The new display types are actually more readable under some lighting conditions, which can make using a PalmOS handheld even more simple and reliable for those of use with aging eyeballs. You don't have to use all the new features.

(and you can still read slashdot using lynx from a VT100 terminal...)

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[carlos_benj]

I too use mine for ebooks. I've thought of adding a GPS but I think for extended stays I'd prefer a standalone GPS that doesn't need recharging daily. I just couldn't resist the jab when the complaint referenced the term "exercise" in the context of a week long hike.

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[3.1415926535]

And lug them around along with your tent and all your other assorted hiking/survival gear?

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[CaptainZapp]

That's definitely one of the cool aspects of /.

You throw a valid gripe into the lions den and get umpteen good reasons why you're not right without getting chewed out, so to speak.

And everybody seems to appreciate and understand the validity and ascii centered concerns of your gripe in the process.

Re:Is evolution inevitable?

[pknut]

It's true that Palm must "keep pushing it's capabilities". However, I'm from the old school and I prefer to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid ;). I'm planning on buying myself an original Handspring Visor. It may be simple, but at least it's (hopefully) not going to crash. As companies increase their lines of code, the number of bugs roughly increases as the square of this number, IIRC. It's annoying enough when my relatively simple mobile phone's software crashes. I don't want this to happen on a handheld device. As Antoine De Saint-Exupery put it:

"Perfection (in design) is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but rather when there is nothing more to take away."

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[Burgundy Advocate]

Open the source, Palm!

So they can get the nimble development cycle of such projects as Mozilla and Gnome? I'm sorry, but I don't think so. Any operating system -- especially something embedded like PalmOS -- is going to be over the level of many programmers. I certainly wouldn't want to have to deal with lines and lines of palm assembly...

In the case of PalmOS, I don't see any advantage to opening the source. Palm does a good job with it, and I don't think there's enough "flashy" jobs to keep OSS programmers going.

Not to mention that they need the royalties from other companies licencing it.

I don't see them open-sourcing it anytime soon.

320x320

[cdipierr]

For reference, the hi-res support in OS/5 is not limited to 320x320 per say. Though it's likely that is what many devices will come out with, the choice is actually up to the OEM, but the API is reasonably generic so that it abstracts real screen pixels away from internal pixels.

As was clearly stated at the PalmSource conference back in February, the OS is equally suited to a 640x640 display or even the odd resolutions like 320x480 (like the NR70).

Re:320x320

[cheese_wallet]

Just to let you know, the phrase is "per se" not "per say".

Re:320x320

[pwagland]

As was clearly stated at the PalmSource conference back in February, the OS is equally suited to a 640x640 display or even the odd resolutions like 320x480 (like the NR70).

However, as was clearly shown on the OS datasheet pages it does not support arbitrary resolutions:

Palm OS 5 incorporates a set of high-density APIs that double the screen resolution of a Palm Powered device -- from 160 x 160 pixels to 320x320 pixels.

While what you say may well be true (I sure hope so!), the specs from the manufacturer do not make this clear at all....

Re:320x320

[dhovis]

I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that Palm OS 5 could handle resolutions that were integer multiples of 160. I'm not sure if that means only 160x160, 320x320, 480x480, etc. or if resolutions of 320x480 are allowed.

However, the various OS licencees do seem to have some leeway to modify the OS for their own needs (e.g. Sony and their 320x320 and 320x480 Palm OS 4 devices and Handera with their 160x240 device).

Re:320x320

[micahjd]

This is the critical limitation of PalmOS- no matter how much the OS is improved, if they want backward compatibility they have to deal with applications that assume the display is 160x160 pixels.

Other GUIs like GTK and PicoGUI solve this problem by specifying the relative layout of widgets instead of their position. If Palm really wants scalability, they need to switch to a layout-based system.

Re:320x320

[big_hairy_mama]

If Palm really wants scalability, they need to switch to a layout-based system.

As if switching the layout API would not cause infinitely more backwards incompatability...

Re:320x320

[Proc6]

Just to let YOU know, it's "Star Wars" not "starwars" in your post here., it's " transference" not "transferance", you used both in this post, etc. Oh, and by the way this isn't english class, and I hate people who post "Holier Than Thou" grammatical critiques on Slashdot.

Re:320x320

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

IMHO. If Palm OS 5 doesn't support higher resolutions with differnt aspect ratios. Then that have stuffed up big time. There is no way that I'm buying another Palm that has 160x160 or 320X320, or even 640X640. Most PDAs are not square. The OS should be more than capable of adjusting to any resolution.

Spose we'll just have to wait and see.

Re:320x320

[cheese_wallet]

You can't be more than 21. Nice comment--Feel better? Do you always get pissed off on behalf of others? Whoever it was that I offered my correction to didn't seem too upset about it.

I don't know why you read that as "Holier Than Thou." Maybe I should have said "Please, please don't be offended, I'd like to offer this bit of information. Disregard if you already knew this or it makes you angry." But damn, that disclaimer would be longer than the original message! If I thought that whoever that was knew it was "per se" and not "per say" I wouldn't have posted anything.

It was one sentence, and not a very long one at that. Impressive that you got so much out of it. On the other hand, your post had a definite Holier Than Thou feel to it. By your own reasoning you should hate yourself, which makes two of us.

It's "STAR WARS", if you're picky.

Re:320x320

[micahjd]

As if switching the layout API would not cause infinitely more backwards incompatability...

If they provided two APIs, the 160x160 pixel-based API and a layout-based API, they would have as much backward compatibility as possible with old apps, and new apps could take advantage of the layout engine.

Re:320x320

[yog]

Just out of curiousity, will OS5 be more "compatible" with the variant Palm-compatibles such as Sony and Handera? Sony, with its MP3 extensions, for example, and Handera with its 240x320 display.

The high-res support would suggest that rewritten applications might be more likely to work on Handera. For example, Kodak's PalmPix, which doesn't work on Handera because of the non-standard display, might then become compatible across the board. Oh, joy!

Re:320x320

[yog]

Well behaved applications should query for display size rather than make assumptions. Should be interesting to see what apps fail with OS5.

Re:320x320

[micahjd]

Well, the annoying thing about PalmOS is that from the app's perspective the screen is always 160x160. To support other resolutions, it just scales the app's "pixels" to the device pixels.

Re:320x320

[dylan_-]

Oh, and by the way this isn't english class

"isn't English class"

Stupid question

[PissingInTheWind]

I have a Palm 3XE, can I upgrade my OS? And if so, is there any benefits in doing it, or would it only slow down my pda?

Re:Stupid question

[emeyer]

No you can't. It requires a ARM processor. None of the current PalmOS models can be upgraded to PalmOS-5.

-Eric

Re:Stupid question

[PissingInTheWind]

No, it doesn't require an ARM processor, I'm pretty sure about that.

Too bad some moderators are stupid and mod up false post as 'informative'.

Re:Stupid question

[Palmguy]

You can't upgrade your palm to OS5. Here's a link: http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPI C_ID=4614

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[tps12]

Maybe I'm being trolled, but...

Any operating system...is going to be over the level of many programmers. I certainly wouldn't want to have to deal with lines and lines of palm assembly...

Palm does a good job with it, and I don't think there's enough "flashy" jobs to keep OSS programmers going.

Okay, I wasn't suggesting that you (whoever you are) should work on the Palm OS. I don't care if you like assembly programming, or if you find OS coding "flashy" or interesting. Your comment about assembly is especially telling. Clue: assembly languages are written to be programmed by people. Lots of people can understand and write assembly code. It is not javascript, but it is not voodoo either. Check out the Linux kernel source, and you will find plenty of assembly, all written by real life volunteers.

Check out the traffic on LKML sometime. Lots of people in the community find this kind of stuff very interesting and are quite capable of doing it.

Not to mention that they need the royalties from other companies licencing it.

That is only to recoup the costs of closed source development. Costs that would not exist were the source open.

Re:Your prejudice is showing

[sheldon]

XBox runs Win2k embedded.

WinCE is becoming the norm in new ATM machines and other devices.

Hi-res

[CaseyB]

This latest version of the operating system includes support ... high-res displays (320x320; ...)

So they went through the effort of taking out the 160x160 limitation, and replace it with another arbitrary fixed resolution? What genius came up with that idea?

how many copies?

[Anonymous Coward]

How many copies did it have to sell to "go gold"? Using that figure, can we project when it will "go platinum"?

Re:how many copies?

[jedie]

AFAIK going gold (in thiss context) means that a master copy has been sent to the CD presses, and the master copy is made out of gold.

I repeat, AFAIK, but I'm pretty sure about this, cos it's the way the gaming industry does it

Re:how many copies?

[carlos_benj]

Maybe when they're done with it they should have it bronzed....

Screenshots?

[Malic]

Any NDA breakers out there?

Re:Screenshots?

[pstreck]

goto www.palmos.com you'll find screenshots there. The OS looks pretty much the same though, the changes are mainly internal and you really wont notice them till apps come out with support for them.

Re:Screenshots?

[Anonymous Coward]

I beta tested it. No screen shots, but you can feel the BeOS influence in it. I'm sure some purists will complain about OS bloat, but it's quite efficient and snappy on an ARM, while supporting a lot of advanced features.

gold?

[emoeric]

did this silly company hire king midas?
everything is going gold around here...

Palm's PR Department Doing Its Job

[Onionesque]

Page 5 of today's NY Post (one of three major tabloids) featured as lovely a plug as Palm could hope for, leading me to wonder what may be the financial relationship between the Post and Palm.

It is in no sense "news" that Palm is releasing a new OS, and the fluff piece that they printed wouldn't be news under any circumstances.

Re:No!

[tps12]

Okay, this is exactly the kind of fear-mongering FUD that I am afraid of. Let me take this point-by-point.

Please, Palm, don't listen to this raving lunatic!

On the contrary, please do!

We have man-decades of work that depend on the reliability and low-cost of PalmOS.

Neither the reliability nor the low cost of PalmOS would be endangered by openning the source. Look at Linux: rock solid, and free as in dirt. Some projects that used to be closed source and then were openned have also become much more reliable as well as cheaper (obviously). Quake is a good example.

Opening the source will require us to make all that hard-won scientific knowledge available for free to the public.

I don't think you have read the GPL! Even if the tools you use are Open Source, you do not have to give away your data! The only exception is if your data is in the form of a program that statically links to GPLed software, and even that can be circumvented by using a tricky license like the BSD license.

How are we supposed to feed our families if Palm opens the source to PalmOS? With atoms?

Maybe this is a joke, but if you really are such a "physics genius" you should know that everything is made out of atoms: even food!

Multi Tasking

[agutier]

Isn't about time the Palm OS provided threaded applications? My understanding it that it is build into the OS, but there are currently no APIs. In the Treo, at least, when you are on the phone, you can't continue to use your applications. It seems to me that this will put Palm OS at a disadvantage as PDAs are integrated with cell phones.

Re:Multi Tasking

[nesthigh]

My understanding is that they may only expose one thread to the user because of the license on the PalmOS (1-4) kernel. They didn't write it, and were limited by the authors. Fun, eh?

Next

Re:Multi Tasking

[kurowski]

In the Treo, at least, when you are on the phone, you can't continue to use your applications.

that's odd. on my samsung sph-i300 i can use other applications while on the phone (granted, this is only useful while on speakerphone or with a headset).

Re:Multi Tasking

[pauljlucas]

Same is true with my Kyocera QCP-6035: I can be on the phone and use the PDA as a PDA concurrently.

Re:Multi Tasking

[Bearpaw]

In the Treo, at least, when you are on the phone, you can't continue to use your applications.

Is this from personal experience? Because according to Handspring's Treo FAQ:

Q. While talking on my Treo communicator, can I view my calendar or input data to other applications?
A. Yes, you have complete access to all of your other applications (except those which use the serial library during a call, such as another wireless application). Therefore, you can view your calendar, enter an appointment, write a note, create a to do item, or enter contact information in your address book-all while talking on the phone. Of course, this feature is most useful when using the included headset or in speakerphone mode. To return to the Phone application, simply press the Phone button on your Treo communicator-and you'll be back in the Phone application.

Re:Multi Tasking

[jchristopher]

In the Treo, at least, when you are on the phone, you can't continue to use your applications. It seems to me that this will put Palm OS at a disadvantage as PDAs are integrated with cell phones.

Nice try, but this simply isn't true. I have a Treo, and you can switch to any other application while on the phone, EXCEPT for other wireless apps. (Microbrowser, for example). You certainly can flip over to your calendar or to do list.

Re:Multi Tasking

[MythosTraecer]

1) Due apparently to time constraints, the multithreading API was not included in Palm OS 5. It is scheduled to be in OS 5.5, which will include a slew of other new stuff too. Remember, a lot of the Palm OS 5 guys worked at Apple and had first-hand knowledge of the ship-date-that-never-came of Apple's Copeland OS. So they were anxious to get something out the door already.

2) Your information about the Treo is wrong. You can use the phone while using another app. In fact, Handspring's ads expressly mention this as a feature of the device. How does it do this without multitasking/threading? The Treo hands phone conversation processing over to another chip, leaving the main processor free for other things.

Re:Multi Tasking

[MythosTraecer]

This is true for Palm OS 1-4, but isn't true for Palm OS 5. OS 5 runs a completely new, supposedly Palm-originated kernel.

The kernel of Palm OS 1-4 is actually Kadak's AMX. While AMX is a 32-bit multitasking, multithreading kernel itself, Palm's license agreement prohibited multitasking and limited Palm OS to 4 threads. Palm OS, of course, uses 3 threads to handle internal functions, so only 1 thread was ever available to user applications. Palm was prevented from exposing AMX's multitasking/threading APIs, so if you wanted to do that with a Palm OS application, you had to go to Kadak and ask for a license ($$$$$).

Supposedly, OS 5's kernel is brand new, and built from the ground up by PalmSource. The reason it doesn't have support for multitasking yet is because all the existing apps actually run in emulation. When Palm exposes ARM-native APIs in OS 5.5, a lot of new opportunities will open up.

Re:Upgrade???

[axneck]

it doesn't matter anyway. PalmOS5 is for ARM cpus. So *everyone* is going to have to upgrade. No current dragonball hardware can run it. This is for a new breed.

Wow.... 320x200

[Rahga]

You know what this means.... time to port the AGI interpreters to Palm.... Space Quest II is comming to your handhelds!!!!

It shouldn't even matter if your high-res screen doesn't support color.... Many of us used to play that game on a monochrome monitor in those days. The only part that really got unplayable (before I was stuck for 4 years, damn "rub berries on body"!) was the swamp-creature-with-vines-maze. It's easy on a color screen, because the lines ar pink-on-green, but on monochrome, it looked like jibberish. :)

Re:Wow.... 320x200

[Realm Lord]

Hah, I had the same problem until I got a color monitor. I'm surprised anyone else had the same problem, blast from the past.

Re:Wow.... 320x200

[NickV]

Port AGI over to Palm? Meanwhile, I'm playing Day of the Tentacle and Monkey Island on my iPaq.

I love my PocketPC machine, and the fact that Palm has basically conceded that a serious OS that does more than appointment management is needed, shows just how ahead of the game MS really was in this whole battle.

Not to mention the fact that everyone HAS to upgrade their PDAs to get the new OS and that was something that Palm constantly brought up as an ANTI-PocketPC issue (the ARM vs MIPS pocketpc issue of a few years ago.) Hell, it's still on their graph. Nowadays though, MS users are having the last laugh, considering they can upgrade their PDA's OS without buying a new machine.

Palm really has dropped the ball... hopefully, this will signal a change in their stragety and they'll start to actually make money of their devices (since only Sony and Handspring seem to be pulling profit from the palmos.)

Re:Wow.... 320x200

[Rahga]

Cool.... I had no idea that Zac McKracken was ported into a 256-color game before I saw that page.

So is it Windows yet?

[gelfling]

What next, 3 buttons to click to open the menu to scroll down to the 'print format' action button?

I can't wait until it starts to blue screen.

Re:So is it Windows yet?

[Sloppy]

I recently changed my .sig, and your posts amuses me, in connection with this. "Software should get bigger every year." -- Steve Balmer, quoted in "The Zen of Palm".

Re:Call me ignorant if you like...

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends if you count OBos BeOS or not...

Re:Call me ignorant if you like...

[Adnans]

When are we going to see a new release of BeOS?

Never. BeOS is dead. Perhaps you'll see parts of the API in PalmOS 5.x, but there won't be any new release of BeOS. IF you want a BeOS like enviroment check out Cosmoe OS (it runs on top of Linux).

-adnans

Hi-res update

[p0l]

s/SCREEN_RES/get_screen_res()/g

or more likely: s/160/get_screen_res()/g

Not that revolutionary...

[pstreck]

As a Palm OS developer by trade I've been using the OS 5 development kits for about 4 months now since they were released at palm souce, and I must say that the end users really aren't going to get that much out of this latest release. Reasons being are that the ARM enhancements are designed as what are being called "armlets", small peices of code within the m68k code that is accellerated for an ARM proccessor. Palm isn't pushing native ARM applications which has pluses and minuses, new apps will still run on the older devices minus any armlet functionality, but the new ARM devices are going to have apps that are running slower than they should be do to the m68k -> arm translation. The other thing about this release new API, they've cleaned up a lot of the garbage and added a lot of new functionality so as a developer you got lots of more toys to place with, but as an end user don't expect this to be some holy grail of pda os's. Another downfall of Palms current plan for OS 5 is that they are targetting a handheld unit with a 66mhz arm proccessor, yes a 66mhz proc.. It's rediculous because the new xscale arcitechure which has 400mhz+ cpus has dropped the ARM prices dramatically. But anywho, I am excited to see a unit running OS 5.

Re:Not that revolutionary...

[hattig]

Another downfall of Palms current plan for OS 5 is that they are targetting a handheld unit with a 66mhz arm proccessor, yes a 66mhz proc..

Erm, PalmOS licenses the OS to PalmOS licensees like Palm Inc, Sony, Handera, Handspring. It is up to these manufacturers to build hardware. Palm have approved a 200MHz ARM chip from Texas Instruments IIRC. Sony can be guaranteed to use a damn fast processor as well.

Maybe you are confused, or you are spreading FUD? Maybe the OS developers are ensuring that PalmOS5 performs well on processors as slow as 66MHz (presumably the speed in power-saving mode) which is good surely?

Of course, a low cost ARM based PalmOS5 PDA running at 66MHz, with a 320x320 monochrome screen, at under $199 would be wonderful. As one of the articles pointed out, Palm are doing well because their devices are cheap and do the job, whereas PocketPC devices cost more than the sweet spot pricing...

Re:Not that revolutionary...

[loshwomp]

but the new ARM devices are going to have apps that are running slower than they should be do to the m68k -> arm translation

This is misleading, because the reality is that most applications will run considerably faster on ARM, even with the emulation.. The emulated 68k environment (called PACE) is coded in pure ARM assembly, and all system calls (calls into the OS itself) execute as native ARM code. Most applications use OS services heavily, and thus will run much much faster.

In situations where the application itself implements a CPU-intensive algorithm, the emulation may slow down the execution. In many cases it's still fast enough! These situations are extremely rare, but that's what armlets are for -- small chunks of native ARM code used to boost performance of CPU-intensive routines.

they are targetting a handheld unit with a 66mhz arm proccessor

Absolutely untrue. The OS is completely agnostic to CPU speed, and processors are commonly available in speeds from 40MHz to 1GHz. Spec for hardware that ships on devices is COMPLETELY up to the licensee (e.g. Palm, Sony et. al.) but can be expected to be in the 200MHz ball park.

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[foobar104]

That is only to recoup the costs of closed source development. Costs that would not exist were the source open.

And neither would the product. When are you people going to realize that the open source, non-commercial model doesn't work for large-scale software projects? The fact that it has resulted in good software on occasion (Apache) doesn't negate its overwhelming failures. (Mozilla, Gnome, KDE, StarOffice)

What worries me ...

[Mr_Silver]

We are taking full advantage of the technological advancements in Palm OS 5," said C. E. Steuart Dewar, president of Pimlico Software.

Pimlico software make DateBk, which is a diary replacement because Palms own version is ... well, crap. It's just too limited when you compare it to Outlook.

As much as I don't like a company going down the pan, if Palm have done it right, Pimlico would find that they won't be able to sell DateBk on the new OS. Because Palm's own diary book should be so good, that people would have no reason to update.

I've said it many times, if Palm can get their new Datebook/Memo/ToDo/Address book to sync 100% with Outlook, then they're onto an instant winner. Just because the population of /. would avoid Outlook like the plague, doesn't mean the rest of the world does. If they can take an *exact* copy of their PC stuff on their new Palm, then they'll be a happy bunch.

(I'm led to believe that even PPC doesn't sync over everything - but at least it's more than Palm)

Re:What worries me ...

[JLester]

I just got a Palm M515 and use ActionNames and PocketMirror to sync with Outlook. It syncs everything as far as I can tell .. even notes for meetings and contacts are synced properly with Notes in Outlook. It actually seems to work better for me than the iPaq I used to have.

Jason

Re:What worries me ...

[yesthatguy]

What happens if you have multiple addresses for one person in Outlook? Do they all get synced, or does it just do one?

Re:What worries me ...

[stevel]

You get 'em all...

Re:What worries me ...

[Octagon Most]

DateBk and other applications like Action Names are not so much replacements for Palm's built-in Date Book as enhancements to it. They all use the actual Palm app in ROM and add on to it. Therefore the data that is entered into DateBk is readable by the any other application.

This is a design goal of Palm (now the separate PalmSource for the PalmOS), to keep to built-in applications simple and utilitarian and to allow for a thriving market for third party enhancements.

The Palm Date Book app in PalmOS 5 will be the same "crap" version that you don't like from OS 4.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say compared to Outlook. It sure better be limited compared to Outlook - it runs on a handheld device! Palm has bundled Pocket Mirror for synching to Outlook for some time now so users can already "take an *exact* copy of their PC stuff on their new Palm." Of course it's not perfect but look what it's trying to sync with.

Re:What worries me ...

[NMerriam]

Palms own version is ... well, crap. It's just too limited when you compare it to Outlook.

Why in god's name would Palm want to compete on Microsoft's turf? Palm is not trying to make an all-singing, all-dancing desktop replacement that has 8 million features and nobody knows how to use them all. They are trying to make an APPLIANCE. You turn it on, and it works. You press a button and see your schedule. You click once and start a new to-do.

For those who WANT to get involved in advanced functions like linking contacts to to-dos and that sort of thing, the third market has Palm's blessing and support -- I'm a power user and make full use of DateBk5's extra features. But do I want to explain to my mom the difference between an untimed floating event and a to-do, or how to save views and use a split screen linking capability? No, I want to buy her an M500 and let her track her schedule & phone numbers with the occassional game of solitaire.

Palm is not trying to appeal to the MS Oulook users of the world -- they are selling to the Outlook Express users. Simple, one-task, gets it done.

Let Microsoft worry about producing PDAs that require 400 mhz processors, 32 megs of memory just for the OS, and last 4 hours on a battery charge. I'd rather trust my information to an appliance that is always ready to go and never dies in the middle of a meeting.

Re:What worries me ...

[prismatic]

Umm, no. They don't use the built-in ROM applications. They use the same DB as the built-in ROM applications. If you install Action Names or DateBk, and use a ROM editor to remove the Palm Datebook from ROM, DateBk or Action Names will still work fine.

Its kinda like saying vi and emacs are both extensions to pico, because data entered with vi or emacs can still be read with pico. In all actuality, though, they simply use the same format for writing files so that if you wrote it in one, its readable in the other.

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[transient]

PalmOS may not technically be open source, but portions of the source code are available for download. If you join the Palm Developer program, there's a link on the first page you see after logging in. They've got parts of 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0.

The caveat is that I don't remember what kind of credentials you need to join the developer program, or if you even need any. I can tell you that the Basic membership, which includes source access, is free.

5.0 SDK also released; "GCC not supported"

[John Marshall]

The final 5.0 SDK was also released today (interim development versions have been available in beta for a while).

There are two C/C++ development toolchains for Palm OS: Metrowerks CodeWarrior and what's called prc-tools, which is GCC, GDB, etc configured and patched as a cross-compiler for Palm OS. Some surveys suggest that each of them has about 50% of the market of Palm OS developers.

In the past, Palm OS SDKs have supported both toolchains: the 3.5 and 4.0 SDKs contained various linker (static) libraries in both CodeWarrior format and, for GCC, COFF format. The 4.0 SDK was even available from Palm as an RPM as well as a Unix tarball.

The 5.0 SDK's ReadMe has this to say about GCC:

This release of the SDK does not provide any support for the GCC development tools for Palm OS. GCC-specific components have not been updated for this release. SDK 4.0 Update 1 should be used for development under Linux and for using GCC on Windows.

There are no GCC libraries and no Unix SDKs.

I've also posted to palm-dev-forum about this.

In practice, it's not a show-stopper: the header files, which are all you really need to use the new 5.0 APIs (notably high density graphics and ARM subroutines), work fine with GCC. There's a bit of extra pain on Unix due to line termination issues and PalmSource's lack of familiarity with case-sensitive filesystems, but it's not too bad.

The GCC link libraries are entirely missing from the 5.0 SDK. This is unfortunate: while you can easily write an application without using them, the glue routines in one of the libraries makes compatibility with various versions of the OS easier, and PalmSource recommends their use.

Curiously, while the ReadMe says the SDK "does not provide any support for [GCC]", PalmSource were happy to fix showstopper GCC-usage-related bugs in the SDK's header files when they were pointed out to them during the SDK's beta period. Thus the note in the ReadMe is not really true.

All that's really missing is the GCC linker libraries and the Unix builds of the SDK. Because they were happy to fix those header bugs, because their Web pages still claim to "support prc-tools", and because of what various PalmSource employees have told me, I don't believe there's been any conscious decision (or conspiracy :-)) not to support GCC. I think the problem is that, even though the GCC library and Unix build scripts are still lying around from the 4.0 SDK, it's simply nobody's job to take responsibility for maintaining the scripts or for pressing the button that runs them.

It's all very disappointing: in all probability, there's no technical reason why the 5.0 SDK doesn't include GCC libraries or an easily installable Unix package, it's just that no-one cared enough to make them. It seems like it was always just Someone Else's Problem.

It's not too late to fix this. The company I work for and I know how to build these things (I wrote the scripts in a previous life :-)), and we've offered to help PalmSource build them several times. Hopefully they'll take us up on it, and make the users' lives easier.

Oh, disclaimer: I'm a prc-tools maintainer.

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[Kunta Kinte]

So they can get the nimble development cycle of such projects as Mozilla and Gnome?

You are assuming that is projects have slow development cycles because they are opensource.

What about the Linux kernel? Last time I checked it was open source, and has probably the fastest devel cycle of any OS I know of.

A slow release cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. Solaris has a slow release cycle IMHO, and I am very pleased with the result. How could you even say that Open office has been slow, btw.? Try comparing its release cycle to other office suites out there. For the major changes introduced in 6.0, is it still slow?

BTW, there are open source PDA distro's out there. Take OPIE http://opie.handhelds.org/ for example. Way faster release cycle than the PalmOS, cross platform ( supports Sharp Zaurus and Compaq iPaq ), tons of apps available, because it's Linux. If Opie found it's way to more PDAs as the default OS instead of an after-market option, then I'm sure it would be a force in the marketplace.

Re:Look

[tps12]

This is going too far. Too far!

First, it is not the LKML (Linux Kernel Mailing List) license. That is not a license! It's the GPL (GNU Public License) license!

Second, Richard (not Roger) Stallman is not trying to steal anyone's IP except his own.

Third, if you used Linux on your accelerator it would not go down as much! Sure, I need to reboot every day just like any Win-dozer, but I never get a blue screen of death! Also, Linux is not warez because it is free!

Fourth, there could be companies that would be there just for tech support. There aren't any now, but I'm sure there would be. Read the stuff ESR (Edgar S. Raymond, another Open Source advocate) writes if you want more information.

Fifth, "know-nothing OS programmer"...LOLOLOLOLOLOL! Oh my god that is a good one. Maybe you have not heard of someone called Linux Torvalds who invented Linux and has turned down offers to work for M$ also as a matter of principle. He is the most gifted programmer in the world and if you call him "know-nothing" then I would suggest that it is you who really knows nothing.

Cheap older palm devices?

[adamjaskie]

This rules! Now that they keep releasing these new devices with colour, mp3 players, and so on, I might be able to get an older device for next to nothing! A palm V for $50 would be nice...

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[AstroPup]

So they can get the nimble development cycle of such projects as Mozilla and Gnome?

Nice job carefully picking your examples. As you point out below, PalmOS is an OS. Apples to apples means lets compare it to the nimble cycles of Darwin, FreeBSD, Linux and others.


I'm sorry, but I don't think so. Any operating system

Like Gnome and Mozilla?

-- especially something embedded like PalmOS -- is going to be over the level of many programmers.

Yep. We all know OSS programmers are simpletons. Gee, PalmOS might be hard. Since when is that a reason for keeping something closed source?

I certainly wouldn't want to have to deal with lines and lines of palm assembly...

I certainly don't want you dealing with it either! Leave it to the hordes of OSS coders cranking out amazingly complex, useful, robost code.

In the case of PalmOS, I don't see any advantage to opening the source. Palm does a good job with it, and I don't think there's enough "flashy" jobs to keep OSS programmers going.

Flashy isn't the reason to make it OSS. It's not even the main thrust of most OSS software. Solid security, better core functionality, functionality that serves a small market segment, adherence to standards and support of a wider variety of hardware are just a few of the reasons it would be nice.

Argh!

[r0d3nt]

I just got got the 4.1 upgrade last Friday! DOH!

Re:NOT TRUE

[CaseyB]

From the Palm site:

Palm OS 5 incorporates a set of high-density APIs that double the screen resolution of a Palm Powered device -- from 160 x 160 pixels to 320x320 pixels.

OK, dumbass. It says right there that it has an arbitrary 320x320 limit.

Sorry, I didn't happen to attend the specific seminar at the specific conference where some obscure developer stated that the code doesn't actually have a hard limit.

Under the BeOS influence.

[dsandler]

Troll. (If you want a little BeOS in your Palm, install Khroma and turn your form tabs orange!)

dual boot on the Zaurus

[frankmu]

i wonder if it's poosible to dual boot the palm os on the sharp zaurus. not that it would be too useful, but a nice hack.

Evoloution is inevitable, and sometimes good.

[hey!]

The issue is always tradeoffs.

The current generation palms have three outstanding aspects: small form factor, long battery life, simple and reliable data replication. These also are, in my opinion, the must-dos.

If they had meant to make more of a desktop replacement (like WinCE), they would have compromised these goals initially. In time, more features like multimedia capabilities can and should be added to the platform. If they did not, then (1) people would never upgrade their existing palms, and support would be reduced over time; (2) inevitably, a killer application will appear that they will be unable to support.

However, I would be sorely disappointed if these were done in a way which compromises the most important aspects of the system in order to "measure up" to the more ambitious and less successful competition. Nobody can beat Microsoft in an arena of its own choosing.

I'm optimistic, but I'll reserve judgement until I've actually tried some of the units.

you don't HAVE to upgrade.. ask Newton users

[johnpaul191]

there are still zillions of palm apps that will still run...... personally i can see your point.... i like changing batteries every two months on my IIIxe, i like it not costing too much so when (not if, when) i break/lose it i won't be out too much cash.

that being said i think they need to upgrade. people want something smaller, color, and whatever else..... one thing i would like is a faster processor (color or b&w screen). the only times i have really thought "damn i wish i had a color display" was when i was in a strange city trying to read maps (try reading NYC subway maps in b&w). if i could get a better price on it i think i would buy a kyocera smartphone right now (locked into a contract). it's a little smaller than my IIIxe and it's the same processor/memory. it incorporates dialing from the phonebook, and can go online to get movie times or whatever. i hate having a phone list in my phone and in my palm. granted they can be merged now, but it's only going to be easier with the new OS.

has anything confirmed that ALL palms will be ARM with OS5? i got the impression it was going to be a slow rollout.... they might keep making B&W palms because the price cant be beat. i'm sure a lot of apps will be written with color in mind, but if you only use it as an organizer with a few extra features... who cares? you probably dont need to upgrade anytime soon. people still run Apple Newtons, so i think a Palm V has a long life left in it.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Look

[carlos_benj]

I've always wanted to meet Edgar S. Raymond and Linux Torvalds but not Roger Stallman.

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[foobar104]

Mozilla - a failure in that it was slow in making software, however the final result is excellent

"Excellent" by what standard? It's slower and buggier than IE on Mac and PC, Opera on PC, and OmniWeb on Mac. It's superior in any meaningful way only to previous versions of itself.

Gnome and KDE - solid environments that have been very successful.

Slow, overwhelmingly complex desktops that are inferior in terms of ease of use and user experience to the Windows desktop, the classic Mac desktop, and the Mac OS X desktop. These can be considered successful only when compared to CDE or other truly unpleasant desktops.

OpenOffice - another star of Open Source development.

Buggy, slow, hard to use, and feature-incomplete. If that's what you guys think of as a star, I'd hate to see what you call failures.

Innovation has left Palm in the dust

[Melantha_Bacchae]

In the early days of the Palm Pilot, all was shiny and new. Developers loved it, and cranked out tons of shareware and freeware. All the software expanded its scope far beyond being just a PDA.

Some of the original people left the company to found Handspring. They created the Springboard module for their PDAs, and everything was exciting again. Palm *followed* by adding a SD card to their PDAs. Instead of market leader, Palm became market imitator. In fact, their attempt at OS X desktop software (version 4.0) was so bad that Handspring was recommending that their Mac customers stick with version 2.* under Classic! Then again, Handspring abandoned the Springboard, leaving the Palm world pretty dull except for some of Sony's hardware.

So, does that leave us with Microsoft? Hardly! Some time ago, Microsoft drove Sharp out of the US market (basically Sharp wasn't going to play umpteenth fiddle in the Pocket PC world in the US, and so took its toys home in a huff). Sharp worked hard back in Japan, and built themselves up into the leading PDA there, with enough marketshare to become the fifth largest PDA maker in the world. Still Sharp wanted to come back to the US with a bang, so they decided to carve out their own niche that they could be #1 in. Taking a page out of Apple's book, Sharp built their best Zaurus ever and took an open source operating system (Linux), a very cool GUI (hey, Qtopia isn't Aqua, but it leaves other PDA GUIs looking, well, flat ;), and added some yummy Java. They ran a beta version past developers, who enthusiastically saluted, and released it this spring in the US. Like in the Palm's youth, applications are being rapidly developed for it (and anything that doesn't get away quickly enough is getting ported).

I've got a Palm III and a Handspring Visor Platinum. My Zaurus blows them away. There is really no comparison. The Zaurus is a tiny but real multiprocessing Linux workstation that is a worthy companion to my OS X Macs. It coexists beautifully on my Airport network, sharing files (via FTP) with my Macs and browsing the web with a real browser capable of reading Slashdot (not those dinky postage stamp "pages" for PDAs). It can read and write Word and Excel files (even those created in AppleWorks). It can view pictures from my digital camera, play MP3s, and even view a GMK trailer ("Honey, I shrunk Godzilla and Mothra!";). I can create full tar'ed backups with a couple of taps, and use FTP and my G4 iMac to back the backups up on a CD.

The one thing the Zaurus lacks is a desktop with sync support under OS X. I only use the Zaurus with my Macs and I'm not missing the ability to sync. In fact, I use the cradle as a charging station, I've never plugged the USB cable into anything. The Zaurus is powerful enough to stand on its own as long as you do backups often. If Sharp and Trolltech never get the Mac support done, a third party could write what they need, since the data is stored in XML and both the Zaurus and OS X have good Java support. Wireless syncing via Java would be more fun anyway.

"The path of peace is yours to discover for eternity."
"Mosura", 1961

Re:Innovation has left Palm in the dust

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not true. Consider the following:

Palm's introduction of the SD Card led Handspring to discontinue the Springboard. Why would anyone want a proprietary "Springboard" module when the industry could standardize on existing technology?

Palm's devices are "whiz-bang" with all the latest gadgets. Have you ever heard of the "zen of Palm"? Palm owes it's success to the fact that they have kept it simple. While it is nice to have streaming video on a handheld, is it worth the extra weight and price? Do you use it that much? If so, then a PocketPC is the right choice for you!

Sharp's Zaurus has a fatal flaw: they require a licensing fee for every application developed. Palm had developers coming from everywhere because they were easy to work with. To develop for the Zaurus, it costs money. While this is not a major obstacle for most people, the majority of Palm developers are lone individuals with very limited budgets. I have developed applications for the Palm, and seriously considered the Zaurus. But I am sticking with Palm.

OS 5.0 promises great new features. I am excited about the possibilities in some of the new hardware due out.

Don't discount Palm because they don't have all the features of your laptop.

Re:Innovation has left Palm in the dust

[Melantha_Bacchae]

An AC wrote:

> Palm's introduction of the SD Card led Handspring
> to discontinue the Springboard. Why would anyone
> want a proprietary "Springboard" module when the
> industry could standardize on existing technology?

1) Handspring is discontinuing the Springboard (and eventually the Visor) so they can concentrate on the Treo.

2) Try sticking a wireless modem or digital camera into a SD card. You can do that with the Springboard. You can do that with the Compact Flash port on the Zaurus. Not too many of those items available as SD cards, even if the format would support them. (The Zaurus also takes SD cards so you can get online and have someplace to put your downloads.)

> Palm's devices are "whiz-bang" with all the
> latest gadgets.

Which explains how I was doing some of the things Palm OS 5.0 introduces on my Zaurus way before Palm OS 5.0 came out.

> Have you ever heard of the "zen of Palm"?

Zen is big on emptiness and simplicity. Not a flurry of whiz-bang gadgets.

> If so, then a PocketPC is the right choice for
> you!

If I put a Godzilla movie trailer on a PDA running Microsoft's OS, I would be in serious trouble. Godzilla kills Microsoft running PDA owners!

> Sharp's Zaurus has a fatal flaw: they require a
> licensing fee for every application developed.

Oh no! I almost wrote a Java app on my Zaurus! Thank you for telling me I have to send money to Sharp first!

Now run over to Source Forge and warn them. Those people are illegally developing applications for the Zaurus! Horrors! ;)

Catch a clue. It's Linux. You can't breath on the command line without accidentally writing a shell script.

> But I am sticking with Palm.

Good for you. I wish you joy of it. :)

> I am excited about the possibilities in some of
> the new hardware due out.

I've already got a 206 mhz ARM PDA with the best screen in the industry and a built in keyboard. I've been having fun with it for a couple of months now.

> Don't discount Palm because they don't have all
> the features of your laptop.

My laptop is a Mac running OS X. There is no PDA on the market that can equal that. But the Zaurus comes as close as I've ever seen. ;)

What happens when you embrace and extend Godzilla? Nuclear heartburn!
See "Godzilla 2000" (released in Japan as "Godzilla 2000 Millenium") for details.

Re:Innovation has left Palm in the dust

[MartinJ]

Sharp's Zaurus has a fatal flaw: they require a licensing fee for every application developed

If you want to write Free (GPL) software you can get a free SDK here.

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[groman]

I'm sorry, although I firmly beleive in "To everyone his own", I cannot watch people claim something "inferior" to classic Mac desktop. I'd rather use binary dip switches to use that fugly piece of shit they call an interface. Haven't tried MacOS X yet, but I have the monobrau-menus are gone and I can switch tasks with a single-click.

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[i0lanthe]

The caveat is that I don't remember what kind of credentials you need to join the developer program, or if you even need any.

I joined ages ago, so things might be different now. I didn't need any credentials other than being from the U.S. (people outside the U.S. could join too but had to jump through an extra hoop of some kind before getting ROMs and stuff).

Re:spaceballs fans?

[ShavenYak]

Stupid ass moderators. If they don't get the joke, boom: it's -1 Offtopic. Use your mod points to promote the useful discussions; don't waste your time modding down jokes, even if they are bad.

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[foobar104]

You are clearly in the minority. The classic Mac desktop moved the concept of ease of use and user interface consistency out of the lab and into the mass market. I keep a copy of the original Macintosh User Interface Guidelines on my bookshelf just to remind me that most of the good work in user interface design was done back in the early 1980s, and most of what has come since has consisted of giant leaps backwards.

Re:spaceballs fans?

[slide-rule]

I haven't seen the comment you are referring to (nor am I that interested, really), but I did just want to raise a very generic and non-personal point that whether something is funny or not doesn't have much to do with whether something is on-topic or not; I've modded an otherwise decent humor attempt as off-topic before... yes, I got the [attempted?] joke, but there wasn't any context that related it to the posting or parent comment(s). (Yeah, the fact that this is off-topic with respect to the submission isn't lost on me either. Guess those are the breaks.) For my two cents, if someone is going to be funny, they at least should be passably on-topic about it.

Re:That rocks!

[enjo13]

And that whole..'Poland' country is kind of European if I remember right..

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[foobar104]

The Mac User Interface Guidlines are a travesty that held back UI development for years.

In what way?

Hmm. Why am I bothering to ask a follow-up question of a fucking AC?

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[generic-man]

By the time they are done they will need 200 megs of RAM just to boot it! HA!

In the immortal words of open source project mailing lists,

If you don't like it, rewrite it yourself.
or,
RAM is cheap. Buy more.
or,
It works for me. You must not be doing it right.

Re:Call me ignorant if you like...

[karmawarrior]

And Cosmoe seems to be working and coming along quite nicely too.

Upgrade?

[detritus.]

Anyone know the details of whether current Palm models (m5xx) will be supported for a possible upgrade to version 5?

Re:been there, done that

[subsailor]

Yes. It has. Which is why, after using a Palm for a year or so (it was a freebie with my job) I switched to a Pocket PC when I bought my own. Palms are cute, but IMO little more than an electronic pocket notepad. My iPaq is like a pocket sized laptop.

Re: ARM CPUs

[ceallaigh]

I don't know where you get this 66Mhz ARM from. Intel, TI, Motorola, and now QMedia are all porting Palm OS to run on their latest ARM based CPUs. It's well known that they are offering: Xscale(V5 instruction set) Omap(926T core) Dragonball(920T core) Qmedia's cpu is ? Anyway, all of these puppies run at 150MHz plus.

digitiser problems

[robin]

the digitizer goes mad every now and then, which is very annoying to reset

Yeah, that is very annoying. I use DigiFix, which helps by starting the digitiser calibration app on a soft reset.

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[chefren]

ease of use and user experience to the Windows desktop

Oh, you mean the desktop where apps implement features in a "standard" way. Win 95 is decent. XP is horrible, especially on a network. I find the windows desktop is too much crap stuffed in an inherently very simple interface. The result is bloat and stuff is just too hard to find.

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[foobar104]

One example I like a lot is that the UI guidelines require that menus be a maximum of two layers deep, to keep the user from having to open up many sub-menus. This makes sense, but some commands are better organized into a more heirarchical system.

Um. That's simply not true. Submenus are hard for users to navigate. They require the user to have more knowledge about what options live where, and they require a much greater degree of mouse dexterity. For the handicapped, or the very young, or the elderly, hierarchical submenus are very tough to use.

In this example, the Mac UI guidelines are absolutely correct, in my opinion.

I'd have to move the mouse to the top of the screen and open up several menus every time I wanted to use a command

First of all, I guess you don't realize that moving the mouse to the top of the screen is much easier than the common alternatives, such as moving it to the top of the window or moving it to a menu palette somewhere on the screen. A user can simply slam the mouse forward and hit the menu bar every time. In this way, the top-of-the-screen menu bar can be considered to be infinitely tall; the user doesn't have to worry about where the mouse pointer needs to be in the vertical axis to hit its target. Just push forward until the pointer stops moving. Top-of-the-window or toolchest-style menus are harder targets to hit, and therefore harder to use.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "open up several menus." The guideline declares that every menu option should either be in the top-level menu, or located in a narrowly defined submenu. In other words, having a submenu called "tools" is in flagrant violation of the HI guidelines.

So it seems like the truth is just the opposite. If the GIMP were organized like a HI-compliant Mac app, you'd hardly ever have to open more than one menu, and never more than two.

Re:moving slowly...open the source!!

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a lesson for you here, kids, if you'll only pay attention to it.

On Slashdot, the rules are as follows:

• Praise of an open source project, or of the open source model in general, is "Insightful."
• Criticism of an open source project, or of the open source model in general, is "Troll" or "Flamebait."

Somehow all the wrong people are ending up with mod points.

More Zaurus neat stuff

[ralphc]

I'll second everything Melantha said and add:

Your choices for getting files to & from a Zaurus aren't just FTP via networking or the cradle. The Zaurus comes with both CompactFlash and SD/MMC slots, and you can get USB adapters for both. I run Windows XP at home and when I plug the CompactFlash adapter into the USB port it just appears as another drive. This is how I copy files, backups, etc. back and forth. The CompactFlash is also nice since my digital camera works with it, I can take pictures then slap the card into the Zaurus to show others the pictures since the Zaurus screen is much more viewable than the digital camera.

The "low-level" API for GUI development is QT/embedded. Embedded means that they take the same C++ API you use for Windows or X11 development and ported it to talk directly to the framebuffer. Any QT program is (theoritically, anyway) capable of being ported to the Zaurus.

What I'm most psyched about is the Java support. It's PersonalJava, which is mostly 1.1 with some 1.2 enhancements here and there. This is in contrast to Palm Java development, which is J2ME based (Sun hasn't supported the KVM for a while), and you need to set up emulators, get ROMs, make sure you have the special J2ME UI libraries, etc. Did I also mention most of this stuff is for Windows only? Melantha would be SOL with a MAC. For the Zaurus I just compile and run what I want and just stick to 1.1. If I'm patient I can then package my class files, icons for the PDA desktop, etc. and "install" it, but most of the time I'm impatient and just copy my .class files to the Zaurus via my CompactFlash setup and run them from a linux terminal.

To make a long story short, with the Zaurus I have a PDA and a "hand-held desktop" I can quickly develop my own programs for. I'm never going back to Palm.

score +5 funny!

[larry bagina]

that's the funniest thing I've ever read!