PalmOS 5 Turns Gold

oh, hell yeah biatches! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:08 · Score: -1, Offtopic

I got the first fucking post mother fuckers!

eat shit, motherfuckers!

w00t, I am your God!

god...? by Glove+d'OJ · 2002-06-10 02:10 · Score: -1, Offtopic

Ok, so you are our God... of course, as you posted as an anonymous coward, we don't know who the heck you are.

Karma sucks that way, doesn't it?

baGOCK!

This is great news by PhysicsGenius · 2002-06-10 02:11 · Score: -1, Troll

For those that don't know, PalmOS has more uses than just running on your handheld. It is the premier embedded OS on the market. It runs everything from your Palm to lab experiments to heart monitors. In fact, we have a (somewhat modified, of course) version installed on our synchrotron. The low-profile but high-performance engineering fits well with our high-availability needs.

Re:This is great news by yasth · 2002-06-10 02:16 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Huh??? It isn't even a proper RTOS. Calling it the premier embedded OS is silly and untrue. PalmOS has been a very very minor player in the embedded market. WinCE embeded almost certainly outsells by a factor of ten or more. Qnx is a far better canidate for the premier OS.

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I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.

Poor Palm. by yasth · 2002-06-10 02:12 · Score: 4, Funny

Wow first Moz now this. What next HURD getting done?

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I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.

moving slowly...open the source!! by tps12 · 2002-06-10 02:12 · Score: 0, Insightful

Well, as a staunch Palm user, I guess I should be happy. But what I want to do is grab Palm, shake them, and yell, "it's about goddamned time!" I mean, please...these are features that have been available in Linux for months, if not years!

This is just another example of a closed development model that can't cut it. Open the source, Palm! What are you afraid of?

--

Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)

Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by Burgundy+Advocate · 2002-06-10 02:19 · Score: 5, Insightful

Open the source, Palm!

So they can get the nimble development cycle of such projects as Mozilla and Gnome? I'm sorry, but I don't think so. Any operating system -- especially something embedded like PalmOS -- is going to be over the level of many programmers. I certainly wouldn't want to have to deal with lines and lines of palm assembly...

In the case of PalmOS, I don't see any advantage to opening the source. Palm does a good job with it, and I don't think there's enough "flashy" jobs to keep OSS programmers going.

Not to mention that they need the royalties from other companies licencing it.

I don't see them open-sourcing it anytime soon.

--
Dragging people kicking and screaming into reality since 1996.
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by tps12 · 2002-06-10 02:25 · Score: 2, Interesting

Maybe I'm being trolled, but...

Any operating system...is going to be over the level of many programmers. I certainly wouldn't want to have to deal with lines and lines of palm assembly...

Palm does a good job with it, and I don't think there's enough "flashy" jobs to keep OSS programmers going.

Okay, I wasn't suggesting that you (whoever you are) should work on the Palm OS. I don't care if you like assembly programming, or if you find OS coding "flashy" or interesting. Your comment about assembly is especially telling. Clue: assembly languages are written to be programmed by people. Lots of people can understand and write assembly code. It is not javascript, but it is not voodoo either. Check out the Linux kernel source, and you will find plenty of assembly, all written by real life volunteers.

Check out the traffic on LKML sometime. Lots of people in the community find this kind of stuff very interesting and are quite capable of doing it.

Not to mention that they need the royalties from other companies licencing it.

That is only to recoup the costs of closed source development. Costs that would not exist were the source open.

--

Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by foobar104 · 2002-06-10 02:53 · Score: 1, Flamebait

That is only to recoup the costs of closed source development. Costs that would not exist were the source open.

And neither would the product. When are you people going to realize that the open source, non-commercial model doesn't work for large-scale software projects? The fact that it has resulted in good software on occasion (Apache) doesn't negate its overwhelming failures. (Mozilla, Gnome, KDE, StarOffice)
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 03:03 · Score: 0

haha! Mod +1 funny. Can you actually see open source programmers such as Mozilla and GNOME working on Palm OS? By the time they are done they will need 200 megs of RAM just to boot it! HA!
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by transient · 2002-06-10 03:04 · Score: 1

PalmOS may not technically be open source, but portions of the source code are available for download. If you join the Palm Developer program, there's a link on the first page you see after logging in. They've got parts of 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0.

The caveat is that I don't remember what kind of credentials you need to join the developer program, or if you even need any. I can tell you that the Basic membership, which includes source access, is free.

--

irb(main):001:0>
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 03:05 · Score: 0

Hahahahahahhaha!
Mozilla - a failure in that it was slow in making software, however the final result is excellent.
Gnome and KDE - solid environments that have been very successful.
OpenOffice - another star of Open Source development.
You must be a complete troll to put these down as "overwhelming failures"...
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by Kunta+Kinte · 2002-06-10 03:19 · Score: 1

So they can get the nimble development cycle of such projects as Mozilla and Gnome?
You are assuming that is projects have slow development cycles because they are opensource.
What about the Linux kernel? Last time I checked it was open source, and has probably the fastest devel cycle of any OS I know of.
A slow release cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. Solaris has a slow release cycle IMHO, and I am very pleased with the result. How could you even say that Open office has been slow, btw.? Try comparing its release cycle to other office suites out there. For the major changes introduced in 6.0, is it still slow?
BTW, there are open source PDA distro's out there. Take OPIE http://opie.handhelds.org/ for example. Way faster release cycle than the PalmOS, cross platform ( supports Sharp Zaurus and Compaq iPaq ), tons of apps available, because it's Linux. If Opie found it's way to more PDAs as the default OS instead of an after-market option, then I'm sure it would be a force in the marketplace.

--
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by AstroPup · 2002-06-10 03:32 · Score: 2, Insightful

So they can get the nimble development cycle of such projects as Mozilla and Gnome?

Nice job carefully picking your examples. As you point out below, PalmOS is an OS. Apples to apples means lets compare it to the nimble cycles of Darwin, FreeBSD, Linux and others.

I'm sorry, but I don't think so. Any operating system

Like Gnome and Mozilla?

-- especially something embedded like PalmOS -- is going to be over the level of many programmers.

Yep. We all know OSS programmers are simpletons. Gee, PalmOS might be hard. Since when is that a reason for keeping something closed source?

I certainly wouldn't want to have to deal with lines and lines of palm assembly...

I certainly don't want you dealing with it either! Leave it to the hordes of OSS coders cranking out amazingly complex, useful, robost code.

In the case of PalmOS, I don't see any advantage to opening the source. Palm does a good job with it, and I don't think there's enough "flashy" jobs to keep OSS programmers going.

Flashy isn't the reason to make it OSS. It's not even the main thrust of most OSS software. Solid security, better core functionality, functionality that serves a small market segment, adherence to standards and support of a wider variety of hardware are just a few of the reasons it would be nice.
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 03:36 · Score: 0

thats because MOST other OSes include ALOT more stuff than just the kernel. Additionally the Linux kernel isn't really doing anything really spectacular for the first several iterations. It was just getting basic *NIX compatability going at the kernel level.

Now that the Linux kernel is starting to get tricky/intelligent about various things, e.g. virtual memory, release iteration times are going WAY WAY up.

Linux is nice and all, but given a choice on x86, I'd take FreeBSD. In any event these two, or most other x86 OSes are more stable than windows, unfortunately most of them are still floundering around as to what to do about a desktop/GUI for mom & pop. BeOS came closest to solving that, unfortunately we all know what happened there.

As a development workstation/server they're great though.

How to fix this: dunno exactly, but lots of trial & error, and experimenting with some kind of focussed plan which seems to be lacking at present. i.e. need a new KDE/GNOME type project that is more interested in getting basic functionality up, done, and working well BEFORE throwing in the kitchen sink, possibly even ditching X11.
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by davidmb · 2002-06-10 03:58 · Score: 0

That is only to recoup the costs of closed source development. Costs that would not exist were the source open.
Don't you mean: Costs that would not exist if Palm Source the company did not exist? I have yet to see a company that can survive on no income for very long. Palm Source's revenue comes from licensing fees.
Of course they could release the source and claim licensing fees from manufacturers that want to use it, which I think is the way forward. Much like Troll Tech and QT.
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 04:02 · Score: 0

What about the Linux kernel? Last time I checked it was open source, and has probably the fastest devel cycle of any OS I know of.

The linux kernel is not an operating system. It is an operating system kernel. Without the rest of the utilities (such as ls, cd, chown, etc) it's sort of useless. If Microsoft engineers focused solely on the Windows 2000 kernel instead of calc.exe, iis.exe, bla bla bla, Microsoft's development time would jet by Linus at 10000 MPH.

Likewise, Palm is doing more than simply the kernel; they are also doing every single utility that you use with the operating system.
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 04:10 · Score: 0

So they can get the nimble development cycle of such projects as Mozilla and Gnome?

Nice job carefully picking your examples. As you point out below, PalmOS is an OS. Apples to apples means lets compare it to the nimble cycles of Darwin, FreeBSD, Linux and others.

In addition, if a closed source company did what those projects did (write a GUI and an extremely sophisticated browser from scratch) it would have taken far longer than the time it took the Mozilla and GNOME people to do their thing.
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by foobar104 · 2002-06-10 04:22 · Score: 1, Troll

Mozilla - a failure in that it was slow in making software, however the final result is excellent

"Excellent" by what standard? It's slower and buggier than IE on Mac and PC, Opera on PC, and OmniWeb on Mac. It's superior in any meaningful way only to previous versions of itself.

Gnome and KDE - solid environments that have been very successful.

Slow, overwhelmingly complex desktops that are inferior in terms of ease of use and user experience to the Windows desktop, the classic Mac desktop, and the Mac OS X desktop. These can be considered successful only when compared to CDE or other truly unpleasant desktops.

OpenOffice - another star of Open Source development.

Buggy, slow, hard to use, and feature-incomplete. If that's what you guys think of as a star, I'd hate to see what you call failures.
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by groman · 2002-06-10 04:47 · Score: 1

I'm sorry, although I firmly beleive in "To everyone his own", I cannot watch people claim something "inferior" to classic Mac desktop. I'd rather use binary dip switches to use that fugly piece of shit they call an interface. Haven't tried MacOS X yet, but I have the monobrau-menus are gone and I can switch tasks with a single-click.
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by i0lanthe · 2002-06-10 04:54 · Score: 1

The caveat is that I don't remember what kind of credentials you need to join the developer program, or if you even need any.

I joined ages ago, so things might be different now. I didn't need any credentials other than being from the U.S. (people outside the U.S. could join too but had to jump through an extra hoop of some kind before getting ROMs and stuff).

--
"The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life"
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by foobar104 · 2002-06-10 05:45 · Score: 2

You are clearly in the minority. The classic Mac desktop moved the concept of ease of use and user interface consistency out of the lab and into the mass market. I keep a copy of the original Macintosh User Interface Guidelines on my bookshelf just to remind me that most of the good work in user interface design was done back in the early 1980s, and most of what has come since has consisted of giant leaps backwards.
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 06:42 · Score: 0

The Mac User Interface Guidlines are a travesty that held back UI development for years. Whatever happened to "thinking different"?
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 06:47 · Score: 0

In the beautiful and eloquent language of IRC,

STFU, NOOB!
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by foobar104 · 2002-06-10 06:58 · Score: 2

The Mac User Interface Guidlines are a travesty that held back UI development for years.

In what way?

Hmm. Why am I bothering to ask a follow-up question of a fucking AC?
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 07:11 · Score: 0

One example I like a lot is that the UI guidelines require that menus be a maximum of two layers deep, to keep the user from having to open up many sub-menus. This makes sense, but some commands are better organized into a more heirarchical system. The Gimp solves this problem admirably by having tear-off menus. If I were trying to use the Gimp with menus that strictly conformed to the Apple UI guidelines, I'd have to move the mouse to the top of the screen and open up several menus every time I wanted to use a command, which would make memorizing all the keyboard shortcuts essential.
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by generic-man · 2002-06-10 07:15 · Score: 1

By the time they are done they will need 200 megs of RAM just to boot it! HA!

In the immortal words of open source project mailing lists,

If you don't like it, rewrite it yourself.
or,
RAM is cheap. Buy more.
or,
It works for me. You must not be doing it right.

--
For more information, click here.
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by chefren · 2002-06-11 00:38 · Score: 1

ease of use and user experience to the Windows desktop
Oh, you mean the desktop where apps implement features in a "standard" way. Win 95 is decent. XP is horrible, especially on a network. I find the windows desktop is too much crap stuffed in an inherently very simple interface. The result is bloat and stuff is just too hard to find.
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by foobar104 · 2002-06-11 02:03 · Score: 2

One example I like a lot is that the UI guidelines require that menus be a maximum of two layers deep, to keep the user from having to open up many sub-menus. This makes sense, but some commands are better organized into a more heirarchical system.

Um. That's simply not true. Submenus are hard for users to navigate. They require the user to have more knowledge about what options live where, and they require a much greater degree of mouse dexterity. For the handicapped, or the very young, or the elderly, hierarchical submenus are very tough to use.

In this example, the Mac UI guidelines are absolutely correct, in my opinion.

I'd have to move the mouse to the top of the screen and open up several menus every time I wanted to use a command

First of all, I guess you don't realize that moving the mouse to the top of the screen is much easier than the common alternatives, such as moving it to the top of the window or moving it to a menu palette somewhere on the screen. A user can simply slam the mouse forward and hit the menu bar every time. In this way, the top-of-the-screen menu bar can be considered to be infinitely tall; the user doesn't have to worry about where the mouse pointer needs to be in the vertical axis to hit its target. Just push forward until the pointer stops moving. Top-of-the-window or toolchest-style menus are harder targets to hit, and therefore harder to use.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "open up several menus." The guideline declares that every menu option should either be in the top-level menu, or located in a narrowly defined submenu. In other words, having a submenu called "tools" is in flagrant violation of the HI guidelines.

So it seems like the truth is just the opposite. If the GIMP were organized like a HI-compliant Mac app, you'd hardly ever have to open more than one menu, and never more than two.
Re:moving slowly...open the source!! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-11 02:05 · Score: 1
There's a lesson for you here, kids, if you'll only pay attention to it.

On Slashdot, the rules are as follows:
- Praise of an open source project, or of the open source model in general, is "Insightful."
- Criticism of an open source project, or of the open source model in general, is "Troll" or "Flamebait."
Somehow all the wrong people are ending up with mod points.

That rocks! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:13 · Score: -1, Troll

Almost as much as the US Soccer team!

Yeah, that's right. Still goin' strong!

Once again we prove that we're -- as usual -- better than the rest of the world. Kicking your sorry asses at your own damn sport. How funny! How sad... for Europe. Once again Europe proves they're a bunch of has-beens.

Remember, it's spelled "football", but it's pronounced "soccer". Ta ta!

USA!

Re:That rocks! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:30 · Score: 0

the only reason things are going so well is the american players have gained a ton of experience in europe, and although I support the US team, I doubt we'll be seeing them in the quarter or semi finals.
Re:That rocks! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:55 · Score: -1, Offtopic

Oh yeah, your doing great. In your Group. Do you know how the World Cup works? Thought not!
How sad... for Europe.

Three of the teams in your group arn't from anywhere near Europe. What, you need a map too?
Re:That rocks! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 05:14 · Score: 0

> Three of the teams in your group arn't from anywhere near Europe. What, you need a map too?

ummm.... Portugal is from ? (checking the map)... according to my map, it is still in Europe. Were there any major earth geographical changes that I'm not aware of ?
Re:That rocks! by enjo13 · 2002-06-10 05:58 · Score: 1

And that whole..'Poland' country is kind of European if I remember right..

--
Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!

you are schwul by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:13 · Score: 0

no text

Consumer devices by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:14 · Score: 0

Does anyone know if the prices of the new devices will be in line with PocketPC devices, or something sane along the lines of current Palms?

Upgrade??? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:14 · Score: 0

Oooh, I love upgrading constantly. How can I upgrade my Palm M505 to PalmOS 5??? I can't live without having the newest and greatest thing!! I hope I don't have to go out and buy a whole new PDA!!

Re:Upgrade??? by Sorthum · 2002-06-10 02:16 · Score: 1

Unfortunately, those of us with Handsprings can't upgrade OSes-- every time Palm comes out with a new OS, we have to buy a new PDA to go with it...
Re:Upgrade??? by axneck · 2002-06-10 02:37 · Score: 3, Informative

it doesn't matter anyway. PalmOS5 is for ARM cpus. So *everyone* is going to have to upgrade. No current dragonball hardware can run it. This is for a new breed.
Re:Upgrade??? by pdqlamb · 2002-06-10 02:41 · Score: 0, Offtopic

That's what the Microsloth world calls "upgrading" anyhow!

Avoid this crap, Bluetooth blinds out GPS PCMCIA by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:14 · Score: -1, Troll

Avoid this crap, Bluetooth blinds out GPS PCMCIA cards and GPS addons.

I cant believe people want to make GPS on PDAs impossible while communicating with wire based technologies!

no one seems to care or have a clue. The satellites in orbit are very very weak signals by the time your GPS chips try to lock on to a good reading from 4 of them.

bluetooth was designed to deliberately interfere with GPS because the FCC law loopholes allow them to with the harmonic order interference.

This sucks, another press release promoting the NSA friendly tap-it-all insecure wireless protocols, that also kill my GPS.

is it true by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:16 · Score: -1, Troll

I heard that someone ported Enlightenment to run on top of the Palm OS?

Is evolution inevitable? by CaptainZapp · 2002-06-10 02:16 · Score: 5, Interesting

Call me a ludite, but as an avid Palm user (Vx) this might well be a step backwards.

The thing I love most about the Palm and the PalmOs is that it works, that it's extremely simple and that it's extremely reliable.

I didn't like when they introduced colour and I care even less for all the fancy features promised with PalmOS 5.

Frankly, if the only direction is more colours, better resolution, more MP3, full feature video and other such assorted crap, then I guess it's time to ditch the Palm and go for a Symbian smart phone.

At least then, when the good old b&w simplicity of the V series is no more supported.

--
ich bin der musikant

mit taschenrechner in der hand

kraftwerk

Re:Is evolution inevitable? by cdipierr · 2002-06-10 02:38 · Score: 3, Interesting

I think you're confusing the OS /w the specific designs of a given OEM. There's nothing in OS/5 that would prevent an OEM from coming out with a Palm V-like device (although they'd likely use an ARM chip for better performance).

You're not likely to see one, of course, since OEMs seem to believe that people want all the stuff that's packed into PocketPC (which is color, hi-res, MP3, etc).

But don't blame PalmSource for creating an OS that the majority of PDA OEMs want. Instead, lobby Palm Inc. (which is a separate company) or Sony or Handera to create a device like you want.
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by Sorthum · 2002-06-10 02:46 · Score: 1

Color accomplished little as I see it. Sure, it looks pretty, but I don't NEED my appointments and phone numbers to look pretty. I want something that won't eat battery life-- which brings up another point.
The older Palms used standard alkaline batteries, lasted months on them. The newer ones need special power packs and chargers-- makes taking one on a week long hike a bit of an exercise.

Now we have an entirely new OS that requires still more beefed up battery packs and fancy electronics-- and I STILL just use it for appointments and phone numbers.
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by kisrael · 2002-06-10 02:48 · Score: 5, Insightful

Ok, you're a luddite.

Not really, though: I see where you're coming from, but I think the real key to Palm's wonderful simplicity is in its UI. Color Palms, for better or worse, don't make tremendous use of color--generally just getting better readability and color icons, and of course allowing games and image viewers and what not to be in color. The UI is the same, and for my money is about as simple and reliable as ever.

Same thing with "more colours, better resolution, more MP3, full feature video": if there are seperate MP3 and video apps, and the UI is the same as always (without CE's "i think i'm a small desktop" mistakes, and "Aqua"-like "enhancements") then what does it hurt?

It's always a set of trade-offs. If you want really robust, really simple, you mighta been happy with one of those old school keyboard/character based PDAs...a few even offer synching to the desktop. Palm needs to keep pushing its capabilities, since eventually those gee-whiz features will be cheap enough (in terms of battery life and usability) to make sense.

Of course, the super hightech feature I'm really jonesing for is a clipboard that can hold an entire memo (and maybe ditch the 4k memo limit while they're at it...) I mean, Microsoft finally made Notepad so it didn't choke on 32K files, can't Palm do the same?

--
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by bark76 · 2002-06-10 03:32 · Score: 3, Interesting

It's up to the Licensees as to what they do with their devices. You aren't going to see everyone oftering top of the line 320X320, 16 bit colour devices that play MP3s and video. The OS is scalable enough that Palm Vx devices can still be released. Palm, Inc has their m1XX line up of 'affordable' devices, what makes you think that they'll go cold turkey on those?

What we'll see from the release of this OS is a greater range of hardware available, all running the same OS.

Plus it's got 128 bit encryption, gotta be happy that they're adding security features.

--
Help find a cure for cancer!
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by carlos_benj · 2002-06-10 03:43 · Score: 1

The newer ones need special power packs and chargers-- makes taking one on a week long hike a bit of an exercise.

Yep. Sure do hate missing those appointments while on a week long hike. And isn't hiking for a week exercise enough?

--
--

As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by mbyte · 2002-06-10 03:48 · Score: 2

Funny, my palm Vx is working as an alarm clock right now, because if its "relibity" ...

I never had so much problems with hardware like the Vx ... first defetive DRAM, the software patch never worked for me correctly with palmos 3.0, it did crash all the time, with palmos 4.0 it seems a litte more stable.

Then the digitizer goes mad every now and then, which is very annoying to reset :( (if you tap on the screen and the pixel is 30 pixel below, it sucks if you want to hit the top line ;)

Third, the harware ... the buttons wore out fast, i have trouble pushing the on button now, yay.

for me .. never buy a palm again, sorry palm, not that way ...
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by Drakonian · 2002-06-10 04:15 · Score: 1

Of course, the super hightech feature I'm really jonesing for is a clipboard that can hold an entire memo (and maybe ditch the 4k memo limit while they're at it...) I mean, Microsoft finally made Notepad so it didn't choke on 32K files, can't Palm do the same?
There is a Hackmaster hack to do this: ClipHack

From the description:
Expand the PalmPilot clipboard from 1000 to over 28000 characters. Provides the ability to paste partial clipboard if full clipboard text will exceed field size. As a bonus, ClipHack provides instant word and character count when cutting or copying large text.

--
Random is the New Order.
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by Sorthum · 2002-06-10 04:17 · Score: 1

I use mine as an ebook reader, too-- there's something nice about having a few good books (such as field guides) with you on an excursion...
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by kisrael · 2002-06-10 04:49 · Score: 2

Fair enough point about suped up features leading to less battery life, but for the time being at least Palm is keeping up with lowend models that probably have pretty much the same balance of features (battery life vs gizmos) as the earlier models.

Like other people are pointing out, it's all about tradeoffs...with batteries being the single biggest slow-to-improve technology stumbling block. Chemical batteries just haven't advanced the way other parts of PDAs have over the past decade or so.

--
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by i0lanthe · 2002-06-10 05:13 · Score: 2

Of course, the super hightech feature I'm really jonesing for is a clipboard that can hold an entire memo (and maybe ditch the 4k memo limit while they're at it...)

The things I'd care about are even less flashy... like heap size, segments, and display API.

--
"The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life"
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by Bilestoad · 2002-06-10 05:30 · Score: 1

Just like PalmOS, the Palm marketroids can't keep up. They claim in their PalmOS 5 "advantages" chart that there is no Pocket PC device with integrated wireless. iPaq 3875 anyone?

Fine, compare features, but why lose credibility by publishing outright lies?
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 05:32 · Score: 0

Uhm. Ouch? I dunno bout you, but when I want to read a book I pick one up. I don't invent uses for toy gadgets so I look as if I'm on the edge of technology. I'd just as well save the $100-400 that goes into a palm and buy a number of good books.
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by jeffehobbs · 2002-06-10 05:58 · Score: 2

Funny, my palm Vx is working as an alarm clock right now, because if its "reliabity"

I know you don't mean it that way, but I would say that is actually pretty much the highest complement you could give an ostensibly "reliable" electronic device. I can't think of a single other piece of electronics that I depend on to function properly, day after day, with no configuration or upkeep, more than an alarm clock.

~jeff
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by firewood · 2002-06-10 06:28 · Score: 1

The thing I love most about the Palm and the PalmOs is that it works, that it's extremely simple and that it's extremely reliable.

Frankly, if the only direction is more colours, better resolution, more MP3, full feature video and other such assorted crap, then I guess it's time to ditch the Palm and go for a ...
PalmOS 5's main purpose is to support ARM processors. ARM processors generally have a better MIPS/mW efficiency, and can thus run native apps using less power, which should result in greater battery life for the simple reliable PIM apps, which will still be there. The new display types are actually more readable under some lighting conditions, which can make using a PalmOS handheld even more simple and reliable for those of use with aging eyeballs. You don't have to use all the new features.
(and you can still read slashdot using lynx from a VT100 terminal...)
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by carlos_benj · 2002-06-10 06:46 · Score: 1

I too use mine for ebooks. I've thought of adding a GPS but I think for extended stays I'd prefer a standalone GPS that doesn't need recharging daily. I just couldn't resist the jab when the complaint referenced the term "exercise" in the context of a week long hike.

--
--

As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by 3.1415926535 · 2002-06-10 06:50 · Score: 1

And lug them around along with your tent and all your other assorted hiking/survival gear?
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by CaptainZapp · 2002-06-10 07:57 · Score: 1

That's definitely one of the cool aspects of /.
You throw a valid gripe into the lions den and get umpteen good reasons why you're not right without getting chewed out, so to speak.
And everybody seems to appreciate and understand the validity and ascii centered concerns of your gripe in the process.

--
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
Re:Is evolution inevitable? by pknut · 2002-06-10 08:44 · Score: 1

It's true that Palm must "keep pushing it's capabilities". However, I'm from the old school and I prefer to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid ;). I'm planning on buying myself an original Handspring Visor. It may be simple, but at least it's (hopefully) not going to crash. As companies increase their lines of code, the number of bugs roughly increases as the square of this number, IIRC. It's annoying enough when my relatively simple mobile phone's software crashes. I don't want this to happen on a handheld device. As Antoine De Saint-Exupery put it:

"Perfection (in design) is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but rather when there is nothing more to take away."

spaceballs fans? by jglow · 2002-06-10 02:17 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I can't wait until palm OS goes plaid.

--

There's no "I" in Linux.. err..

Re:spaceballs fans? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:56 · Score: -1, Offtopic

the modder is obviously not a spaceballs fan!
Re:spaceballs fans? by ShavenYak · 2002-06-10 04:59 · Score: 1

Stupid ass moderators. If they don't get the joke, boom: it's -1 Offtopic. Use your mod points to promote the useful discussions; don't waste your time modding down jokes, even if they are bad.

--

Hey kids, there's only 5 days left 'til Yak Shaving Day!
Re:spaceballs fans? by slide-rule · 2002-06-10 05:52 · Score: 1

I haven't seen the comment you are referring to (nor am I that interested, really), but I did just want to raise a very generic and non-personal point that whether something is funny or not doesn't have much to do with whether something is on-topic or not; I've modded an otherwise decent humor attempt as off-topic before... yes, I got the [attempted?] joke, but there wasn't any context that related it to the posting or parent comment(s). (Yeah, the fact that this is off-topic with respect to the submission isn't lost on me either. Guess those are the breaks.) For my two cents, if someone is going to be funny, they at least should be passably on-topic about it.

Your prejudice is showing by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:19 · Score: 0

WinCE has a tiny marketshare and is mainly confined to running the XBox. Just because PalmOS is Unix-based is no reason to shrug it off as "not a proper RTOS".

Re:Your prejudice is showing by sheldon · 2002-06-10 02:26 · Score: 2

XBox runs Win2k embedded.

WinCE is becoming the norm in new ATM machines and other devices.
Re:Your prejudice is showing by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:40 · Score: -1

Yes, and do you know how annoying it is to walk up and see a bluescreen of death?
Re:Your prejudice is showing by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 05:02 · Score: 0

Don't forget the BMW 7-series luxury sedan! I'm going to miss that little blue and white propellor grille ornament that is sure to be replaced by a "Power by WinCE" badge :(

320x320 by cdipierr · 2002-06-10 02:21 · Score: 5, Informative

For reference, the hi-res support in OS/5 is not limited to 320x320 per say. Though it's likely that is what many devices will come out with, the choice is actually up to the OEM, but the API is reasonably generic so that it abstracts real screen pixels away from internal pixels.

As was clearly stated at the PalmSource conference back in February, the OS is equally suited to a 640x640 display or even the odd resolutions like 320x480 (like the NR70).

Re:320x320 by cheese_wallet · 2002-06-10 02:35 · Score: 1

Just to let you know, the phrase is "per se" not "per say".
Re:320x320 by pwagland · 2002-06-10 02:43 · Score: 2

As was clearly stated at the PalmSource conference back in February, the OS is equally suited to a 640x640 display or even the odd resolutions like 320x480 (like the NR70).
However, as was clearly shown on the OS datasheet pages it does not support arbitrary resolutions:
Palm OS 5 incorporates a set of high-density APIs that double the screen resolution of a Palm Powered device -- from 160 x 160 pixels to 320x320 pixels.
While what you say may well be true (I sure hope so!), the specs from the manufacturer do not make this clear at all....
Re:320x320 by dhovis · 2002-06-10 02:59 · Score: 2

I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that Palm OS 5 could handle resolutions that were integer multiples of 160. I'm not sure if that means only 160x160, 320x320, 480x480, etc. or if resolutions of 320x480 are allowed.
However, the various OS licencees do seem to have some leeway to modify the OS for their own needs (e.g. Sony and their 320x320 and 320x480 Palm OS 4 devices and Handera with their 160x240 device).

--
--
The internet is the greatest source of biased information in the history of mankind.
Re:320x320 by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 03:05 · Score: 0

The Handera 330 is 240x320, and the Samsung PalmOS smartphone is 160x240.
Re:320x320 by micahjd · 2002-06-10 05:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

This is the critical limitation of PalmOS- no matter how much the OS is improved, if they want backward compatibility they have to deal with applications that assume the display is 160x160 pixels.
Other GUIs like GTK and PicoGUI solve this problem by specifying the relative layout of widgets instead of their position. If Palm really wants scalability, they need to switch to a layout-based system.

--
-- 2 + 2 = 5, for very large values of 2
Re:320x320 by big_hairy_mama · 2002-06-10 08:57 · Score: 2

If Palm really wants scalability, they need to switch to a layout-based system.

As if switching the layout API would not cause infinitely more backwards incompatability...
Re:320x320 by Proc6 · 2002-06-10 10:31 · Score: 1

Just to let YOU know, it's "Star Wars" not "starwars" in your post here., it's " transference" not "transferance", you used both in this post, etc. Oh, and by the way this isn't english class, and I hate people who post "Holier Than Thou" grammatical critiques on Slashdot.

--
I'm Rick James with mod points biatch!
Re:320x320 by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · 2002-06-10 11:12 · Score: 2

IMHO. If Palm OS 5 doesn't support higher resolutions with differnt aspect ratios. Then that have stuffed up big time. There is no way that I'm buying another Palm that has 160x160 or 320X320, or even 640X640. Most PDAs are not square. The OS should be more than capable of adjusting to any resolution.
Spose we'll just have to wait and see.
Re:320x320 by cheese_wallet · 2002-06-10 13:50 · Score: 1, Offtopic

You can't be more than 21. Nice comment--Feel better? Do you always get pissed off on behalf of others? Whoever it was that I offered my correction to didn't seem too upset about it.

I don't know why you read that as "Holier Than Thou." Maybe I should have said "Please, please don't be offended, I'd like to offer this bit of information. Disregard if you already knew this or it makes you angry." But damn, that disclaimer would be longer than the original message! If I thought that whoever that was knew it was "per se" and not "per say" I wouldn't have posted anything.

It was one sentence, and not a very long one at that. Impressive that you got so much out of it. On the other hand, your post had a definite Holier Than Thou feel to it. By your own reasoning you should hate yourself, which makes two of us.

It's "STAR WARS", if you're picky.
Re:320x320 by micahjd · 2002-06-10 15:28 · Score: 2

As if switching the layout API would not cause infinitely more backwards incompatability...
If they provided two APIs, the 160x160 pixel-based API and a layout-based API, they would have as much backward compatibility as possible with old apps, and new apps could take advantage of the layout engine.

--
-- 2 + 2 = 5, for very large values of 2
Re:320x320 by yog · 2002-06-10 15:32 · Score: 1

Just out of curiousity, will OS5 be more "compatible" with the variant Palm-compatibles such as Sony and Handera? Sony, with its MP3 extensions, for example, and Handera with its 240x320 display.

The high-res support would suggest that rewritten applications might be more likely to work on Handera. For example, Kodak's PalmPix, which doesn't work on Handera because of the non-standard display, might then become compatible across the board. Oh, joy!

--
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
Re:320x320 by yog · 2002-06-10 15:34 · Score: 1

Well behaved applications should query for display size rather than make assumptions. Should be interesting to see what apps fail with OS5.

--
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
Re:320x320 by micahjd · 2002-06-10 15:54 · Score: 2

Well, the annoying thing about PalmOS is that from the app's perspective the screen is always 160x160. To support other resolutions, it just scales the app's "pixels" to the device pixels.

--
-- 2 + 2 = 5, for very large values of 2
Re:320x320 by dylan_- · 2002-06-11 03:16 · Score: 2

Oh, and by the way this isn't english class

"isn't English class"

--
Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
Re:320x320 by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-11 11:06 · Score: 0

I presume you mean, "...isn't [E]nglish class...."
Sincerely,
Peter

Stupid question by PissingInTheWind · 2002-06-10 02:21 · Score: 1

I have a Palm 3XE, can I upgrade my OS? And if so, is there any benefits in doing it, or would it only slow down my pda?

--

A message from the system administrator: 'I've upped my priority. Now up yours.'

Re:Stupid question by zuzzabuzz · 2002-06-10 02:42 · Score: 0

I can't tell for sure, but under the Investement Protection section of their "Introduction", they state:
"To protect existing hardware investments, support will continue to be provided for the 68000-based Palm OS platform, including such improvements as support for high-density displays."
It seems aimed more @ developers and "licensees" than consumer, so it's not clear.

--
-buzz
Re:Stupid question by emeyer · 2002-06-10 02:44 · Score: 1, Informative

No you can't. It requires a ARM processor. None of the current PalmOS models can be upgraded to PalmOS-5.

-Eric
Re:Stupid question by PissingInTheWind · 2002-06-10 05:42 · Score: 2, Informative

No, it doesn't require an ARM processor, I'm pretty sure about that.
Too bad some moderators are stupid and mod up false post as 'informative'.

--

A message from the system administrator: 'I've upped my priority. Now up yours.'
Re:Stupid question by Palmguy · 2002-06-10 06:59 · Score: 1

You can't upgrade your palm to OS5. Here's a link: http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPI C_ID=4614

No! by PhysicsGenius · 2002-06-10 02:23 · Score: -1, Troll

Please, Palm, don't listen to this raving lunatic! We have man-decades of work that depend on the reliability and low-cost of PalmOS. Opening the source will require us to make all that hard-won scientific knowledge available for free to the public. How are we supposed to feed our families if Palm opens the source to PalmOS? With atoms?

Re:No! by tps12 · 2002-06-10 02:32 · Score: 1

Okay, this is exactly the kind of fear-mongering FUD that I am afraid of. Let me take this point-by-point.

Please, Palm, don't listen to this raving lunatic!

On the contrary, please do!

We have man-decades of work that depend on the reliability and low-cost of PalmOS.

Neither the reliability nor the low cost of PalmOS would be endangered by openning the source. Look at Linux: rock solid, and free as in dirt. Some projects that used to be closed source and then were openned have also become much more reliable as well as cheaper (obviously). Quake is a good example.

Opening the source will require us to make all that hard-won scientific knowledge available for free to the public.

I don't think you have read the GPL! Even if the tools you use are Open Source, you do not have to give away your data! The only exception is if your data is in the form of a program that statically links to GPLed software, and even that can be circumvented by using a tricky license like the BSD license.

How are we supposed to feed our families if Palm opens the source to PalmOS? With atoms?

Maybe this is a joke, but if you really are such a "physics genius" you should know that everything is made out of atoms: even food!

--

Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)

palmos isn't unix based by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:25 · Score: 0

It's not even unix like. QNX is unixy. PalmOS is on a par with DOS 6.2 for complexity.

been there, done that by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:25 · Score: -1, Flamebait

hasn't pocket pc been doing all of this and more for the past year?

Re:been there, done that by subsailor · 2002-06-10 12:23 · Score: 1

Yes. It has. Which is why, after using a Palm for a year or so (it was a freebie with my job) I switched to a Pocket PC when I bought my own. Palms are cute, but IMO little more than an electronic pocket notepad. My iPaq is like a pocket sized laptop.

--
"Peace through superior firepower."

Hi-res by CaseyB · 2002-06-10 02:26 · Score: 1

This latest version of the operating system includes support ... high-res displays (320x320; ...)

So they went through the effort of taking out the 160x160 limitation, and replace it with another arbitrary fixed resolution? What genius came up with that idea?

HOLY SHIT NIGGERS I JUST TOOK A POO by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:27 · Score: -1, Offtopic

hi everyone
hugzzzz

how many copies? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:27 · Score: 2, Funny

How many copies did it have to sell to "go gold"? Using that figure, can we project when it will "go platinum"?

Re:how many copies? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:43 · Score: 0

AOL took about 20 years, but I'm pretty sure Palm is going to blow their doors off.

AC Iglacias (too smart to sign in)
Re:how many copies? by jedie · 2002-06-10 02:49 · Score: 3, Informative

AFAIK going gold (in thiss context) means that a master copy has been sent to the CD presses, and the master copy is made out of gold.
I repeat, AFAIK, but I'm pretty sure about this, cos it's the way the gaming industry does it

--
"The majority is always sane, Louis." -- Nessus
http://slashdot.jp
Re:how many copies? by carlos_benj · 2002-06-10 03:40 · Score: 1

Maybe when they're done with it they should have it bronzed....

--
--

As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.

Sheesh, slashbots by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:28 · Score: 0

First of all, QNX isn't an OS--it's an arcade game. Second of all, of course PalmOS is unix-like--it multitasks, right? There you go.

On "a" par with DOS 6.2, indeed. DOS doesn't even support command-completion.

Re:Sheesh, slashbots by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:30 · Score: 0

First of all, QNX isn't an OS--it's an arcade game.

Riiiiight... You know what you're talking about, sure...

Second of all, of course PalmOS is unix-like--it multitasks, right?

Actually, no it doesn't.
Re:Sheesh, slashbots by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:44 · Score: 0

First of all, QNX isn't an OS--it's an arcade game. Second of all, of course PalmOS is unix-like--it multitasks, right? There you go.

Of course QNX is an OS, the game cant run itself. What do you think is drawing all the graphics on the screen?

On "a" par with DOS 6.2, indeed. DOS doesn't even support command-completion.

It did in MS-DOS 5, but Apple sued Microsoft and they had to remove it. Thats why DOS 6 didn't do multitasking or virtual memory any more.
Re:Sheesh, slashbots by j0nkatz · 2002-06-10 03:09 · Score: 0

My high score on QNX is 31337 points. What's yours?

--
Don't mod me, bro'!!!!

Screenshots? by Malic · 2002-06-10 02:28 · Score: 1

Any NDA breakers out there?

--
I swear by MacOS X. Although I use to swear *at* MacOS 9...

Re:Screenshots? by pstreck · 2002-06-10 02:44 · Score: 2, Informative

goto www.palmos.com you'll find screenshots there. The OS looks pretty much the same though, the changes are mainly internal and you really wont notice them till apps come out with support for them.

--

Later,
Phil
Re:Screenshots? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 03:04 · Score: 2, Informative

I beta tested it. No screen shots, but you can feel the BeOS influence in it. I'm sure some purists will complain about OS bloat, but it's quite efficient and snappy on an ARM, while supporting a lot of advanced features.

Sorry, TRY AGAIN by DonkeyHote · 2002-06-10 02:29 · Score: -1

You AC's know that you don't count, hence I have taken this FP in the name of the CLIT.

Log-in, and TRY again!

EAT A HUGE DICK FAGGO by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:29 · Score: -1, Troll

nigger

gold? by emoeric · 2002-06-10 02:29 · Score: 2, Funny

did this silly company hire king midas?
everything is going gold around here...

--

|---------------|
practically an AC

Palm's PR Department Doing Its Job by Onionesque · 2002-06-10 02:30 · Score: 1

Page 5 of today's NY Post (one of three major tabloids) featured as lovely a plug as Palm could hope for, leading me to wonder what may be the financial relationship between the Post and Palm.

It is in no sense "news" that Palm is releasing a new OS, and the fluff piece that they printed wouldn't be news under any circumstances.

Re:Palm's PR Department Doing Its Job by yatest5 · 2002-06-10 03:08 · Score: 0

GERSH KUNTZMAN !?!?!?

A made-up name if ever I heard one!
--
- Mod parent up! [a] by Anonymous Coward (Score:5) Thurs, June 31, @13:37
Re:Palm's PR Department Doing Its Job by Onionesque · 2002-06-10 03:16 · Score: 0

> A made-up name if ever I heard one!

On the contrary; I went to Brown University with him.
Re:Palm's PR Department Doing Its Job by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 03:54 · Score: 0

"Gersh Kuntzman of Brown" sounds even more made-up.

My dick is ***huge***. by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:32 · Score: 0

yes!!!

Call me ignorant if you like... by Ignorant+Cocksucker · 2002-06-10 02:33 · Score: 0, Offtopic

But what are Palm Inc going to do with the BeOS source code they bought from Be Inc ?

When are we going to see a new release of BeOS ?

Re:Call me ignorant if you like... by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:46 · Score: 1, Insightful

Depends if you count OBos BeOS or not...
Re:Call me ignorant if you like... by Adnans · 2002-06-10 02:49 · Score: 2

When are we going to see a new release of BeOS?

Never. BeOS is dead. Perhaps you'll see parts of the API in PalmOS 5.x, but there won't be any new release of BeOS. IF you want a BeOS like enviroment check out Cosmoe OS (it runs on top of Linux).

-adnans

--
"In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people." --Linus Torvalds
Re:Call me ignorant if you like... by karmawarrior · 2002-06-10 07:59 · Score: 1

And Cosmoe seems to be working and coming along quite nicely too.

--
KMSMA (WWBD?)

In case it's slashdotted by Big+Dogs+Cock · 2002-06-10 02:33 · Score: -1

Palm software aims to thwart Microsoft, spur demand

By Franklin Paul

NEW YORK, June 10 (Reuters) - Palm Inc.(NasdaqNM:PALM - News) on Monday said it has begun sending to handheld computer makers a more potent version of the software that drives the pocket-sized organizers, which it hopes will squash the advances of rival Microsoft Inc. and revitalize demand that has been flagging.

ADVERTISEMENT FOR PILE CREAM

Get a GREAT DEAL on a New Ass:

Palm, the leading maker of handheld penises and the operating system (OS) software that powers them, said it has started shipping the completed Palm OS 5 to licensees and developers.

They in turn will use it to make new hardware and programmers that spice up the models with greater ability to play music, video and show porn, and also enjoy longer penises and tougher security features.

The software builds upon advanced chips made by Intel Corp.(NasdaqNM:INTC - News), Texas Instruments Inc.(NYSE:TXN - News) and Motorola Inc.(NYSE:MOT - News) All three are working on chips based on designs from Cambridge, England-based ARM Holdings Inc.(NasdaqNM:ARMHY - News)

"A lot of our developers (in the past) were running into limitations on some of the things they wanted to do -- an ARM opens up a very broad ass," Steve Sakoman, Chief Product Officer at Palm's software unit, PalmSource, said in an interview in a nearby bathhouse.

So far, only Hairy Palm hard penis has promised to deliver this year products based on the new system, but analysts say they expect others to bring new products to market soon.

Palm has quickly created a significant market for handheld computers, with more than 23 million units shipped of devices running the Palm OS, and made by Palm, Handspring Inc.,(NasdaqNM:HAND - News) Sony Corp.(Tokyo:6758.T - News) and others who license the software. Palm's OS rules more than half of the global market, to 20 percent for Pocket PC, which is made by Microsoft who are evil according to premier news site Slashdot. (NasdaqNM:MSFT - News)

But Hairy Palm and Handjob, unlike the more diversified rival anal sex, have suffered over the past year as consumer demand stalled, and each cut hardware prices in an attempt to stoke interest in the personal digital assistants, or PDAs.

FENDING OFF POCKET PC's ADVANCE

What's more, Palm has had to fend off criticism that those models cannot match features in Pocket Penis software, which like Research In Motion Ltd.'s(NasdaqNM:RIMM - News) Huge Throbbing Black Cock, is popular with Hemos where devices are bought by the hundreds or thousands, compared to the one-off consumer purchases that drive Hairy Palm OS models.

While industry statistics show that Hairy Palm OS still dominates, shipments of Pocket Billiards PC devices have scored solid man-meat growth in recent quarters, led by the iPaq, made by Compaq, which was recently acquired by Hewlett-Packard Co. (NYSE:HWP - News) Palm's new software is expected to create a more head-to-head (slurp, slurp) battle with Pocket PC.

"The present Pocket PCs are literally a 24-30 month old design (and) the Palm devices will have twice the battery life of any Pocket PC," said Richard Doherty, of the Envisioneering Group. "(Microsoft) is going to be very concerned when the anal tests of these device are completed by fourth quarter."

Gartner analyst Todd Kort said Microsoft may still have an advantage in the enterprise, thanks to relationships derived from its dominance in Vulcan characters with large breasts. But with most Pocket PC devices price about $400, consumers will again flock to more inexpensive bathouse-based models.

"Hairy Palm should maintain its dominance of the consumer space simply because there is very little from the Microsoft camp that is under a $350 price point, and 75 percent of all units sell for less than $350," Kort said.

That is important as many early handheld penises might consider this the first major reason to upgrade, after years of mostly cosmetic and incremental change by device makers.

Experts expects demand to grow rapidly later this year after consumers see affordably priced devices boasting bigger assholes and features such as MP3 digital music players, in as well as hardcore gaysex and phone organizer applications.

"There is definitely going to be a big manjuice wave and that should commence about a month after the first products ship," Kort said.

--
"Under the iron bridge, we fist" - The Smiths, Still Ill

But what about LINUX?? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:36 · Score: -1, Troll

a pimp ain't a pimp with no hoes!!!!!

Multi Tasking by agutier · 2002-06-10 02:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

Isn't about time the Palm OS provided threaded applications? My understanding it that it is build into the OS, but there are currently no APIs. In the Treo, at least, when you are on the phone, you can't continue to use your applications. It seems to me that this will put Palm OS at a disadvantage as PDAs are integrated with cell phones.

Re:Multi Tasking by nesthigh · 2002-06-10 02:50 · Score: 3, Interesting

My understanding is that they may only expose one thread to the user because of the license on the PalmOS (1-4) kernel. They didn't write it, and were limited by the authors. Fun, eh?

Next
Re:Multi Tasking by kurowski · 2002-06-10 02:53 · Score: 2, Informative

In the Treo, at least, when you are on the phone, you can't continue to use your applications.

that's odd. on my samsung sph-i300 i can use other applications while on the phone (granted, this is only useful while on speakerphone or with a headset).
Re:Multi Tasking by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 04:02 · Score: 0

Treos and VisorPhones let you use the PDA all you want while on the phone. That's why the personal speakerphone and the headset jack are so valuable - you can take notes or make appointments or jot down whatever while on the phone and using whatever applications you want.

...Even if that just means playing tetris while talking to your boss or something to pass the time.
-N
Re:Multi Tasking by pauljlucas · 2002-06-10 04:25 · Score: 1

Same is true with my Kyocera QCP-6035: I can be on the phone and use the PDA as a PDA concurrently.

--
If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
Re:Multi Tasking by Bearpaw · 2002-06-10 04:48 · Score: 3, Informative

In the Treo, at least, when you are on the phone, you can't continue to use your applications.
Is this from personal experience? Because according to Handspring's Treo FAQ:
Q. While talking on my Treo communicator, can I view my calendar or input data to other applications?
A. Yes, you have complete access to all of your other applications (except those which use the serial library during a call, such as another wireless application). Therefore, you can view your calendar, enter an appointment, write a note, create a to do item, or enter contact information in your address book-all while talking on the phone. Of course, this feature is most useful when using the included headset or in speakerphone mode. To return to the Phone application, simply press the Phone button on your Treo communicator-and you'll be back in the Phone application.
Re:Multi Tasking by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 05:41 · Score: 0

threaded applications != multi-tasking

Yeah, yeah.. threads provide an API to an OS way of multitasking. What people don't get is they are redundant. You can multitask within an application given sufficient functionality (such as select(), etc.).. and you don't have to worry about thread locking and nasty race conditions. Threads are the devil's work! (well, C++ too, but that's a different issue for a later time...)
Re:Multi Tasking by jchristopher · 2002-06-10 06:08 · Score: 1

In the Treo, at least, when you are on the phone, you can't continue to use your applications. It seems to me that this will put Palm OS at a disadvantage as PDAs are integrated with cell phones.
Nice try, but this simply isn't true. I have a Treo, and you can switch to any other application while on the phone, EXCEPT for other wireless apps. (Microbrowser, for example). You certainly can flip over to your calendar or to do list.
Re:Multi Tasking by MythosTraecer · 2002-06-10 10:30 · Score: 3, Informative

1) Due apparently to time constraints, the multithreading API was not included in Palm OS 5. It is scheduled to be in OS 5.5, which will include a slew of other new stuff too. Remember, a lot of the Palm OS 5 guys worked at Apple and had first-hand knowledge of the ship-date-that-never-came of Apple's Copeland OS. So they were anxious to get something out the door already.

2) Your information about the Treo is wrong. You can use the phone while using another app. In fact, Handspring's ads expressly mention this as a feature of the device. How does it do this without multitasking/threading? The Treo hands phone conversation processing over to another chip, leaving the main processor free for other things.

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--Mythos
Re:Multi Tasking by MythosTraecer · 2002-06-10 10:45 · Score: 4, Informative

This is true for Palm OS 1-4, but isn't true for Palm OS 5. OS 5 runs a completely new, supposedly Palm-originated kernel.

The kernel of Palm OS 1-4 is actually Kadak's AMX. While AMX is a 32-bit multitasking, multithreading kernel itself, Palm's license agreement prohibited multitasking and limited Palm OS to 4 threads. Palm OS, of course, uses 3 threads to handle internal functions, so only 1 thread was ever available to user applications. Palm was prevented from exposing AMX's multitasking/threading APIs, so if you wanted to do that with a Palm OS application, you had to go to Kadak and ask for a license ($$$$$).

Supposedly, OS 5's kernel is brand new, and built from the ground up by PalmSource. The reason it doesn't have support for multitasking yet is because all the existing apps actually run in emulation. When Palm exposes ARM-native APIs in OS 5.5, a lot of new opportunities will open up.

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--Mythos
Re:Multi Tasking by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 11:13 · Score: 0

I believe Palm OS, like Mac OS 6 through 9, uses cooperative multitasking, which isn't the multitasking we thing of (preemptive multitasking). The application goes around in a big event loop, checking for events every x fractions of a second. Whenever it makes the call to the system to go to the event loop, the system jumps to another program. Of course, things will seem pretty laggy if a program doesn't check for events frequently.

Look by PhysicsGenius · 2002-06-10 02:38 · Score: -1, Troll

We had our legal department look over this "LKML License" thing and it seemed pretty obvious even to me that it was just a way for Roger Stallman to try to steal our IP.

But even if that weren't true (and trust me, the entire physics community is well aware of the dangers of open source software licenses) then there would still be the fact that protected source programs are still much more reliable than warez downloaded from a P2P. For instance, when our accelerator goes down (which it does about 3 times a week) who are we going call for tech support?

I'm sorry, but physicists have more important (to humanity) things to do with their time than correct the random keyboard stabbings of some know-nothing OS programmer.

Re:Look by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:53 · Score: -1, Offtopic

What is this, some sort of Marx Brother style meta-trolling? Take your pick, Curley or Moe? Just remember to tell tps12 which one you choose.
Re:Look by tps12 · 2002-06-10 03:22 · Score: 1

This is going too far. Too far!

First, it is not the LKML (Linux Kernel Mailing List) license. That is not a license! It's the GPL (GNU Public License) license!

Second, Richard (not Roger) Stallman is not trying to steal anyone's IP except his own.

Third, if you used Linux on your accelerator it would not go down as much! Sure, I need to reboot every day just like any Win-dozer, but I never get a blue screen of death! Also, Linux is not warez because it is free!

Fourth, there could be companies that would be there just for tech support. There aren't any now, but I'm sure there would be. Read the stuff ESR (Edgar S. Raymond, another Open Source advocate) writes if you want more information.

Fifth, "know-nothing OS programmer"...LOLOLOLOLOLOL! Oh my god that is a good one. Maybe you have not heard of someone called Linux Torvalds who invented Linux and has turned down offers to work for M$ also as a matter of principle. He is the most gifted programmer in the world and if you call him "know-nothing" then I would suggest that it is you who really knows nothing.

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Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
Re:Look by carlos_benj · 2002-06-10 04:13 · Score: 1

I've always wanted to meet Edgar S. Raymond and Linux Torvalds but not Roger Stallman.

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As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
Re:Look by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 08:27 · Score: 0

Roger Stallman. Nice touch.

CINDERALLA/BUBBLE TEAM by Oxide · 2002-06-10 02:38 · Score: -1, Offtopic

I'll let you decide which one to call your lucky team.

IN OTHER WORDS: I'M A FAG by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:38 · Score: -1, Troll

i like to eat shit holy god
poo

NOT TRUE by enjo13 · 2002-06-10 02:40 · Score: 0

At least take the time to read a little before you post. The limit is not fixed..

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Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!

Re:NOT TRUE by CaseyB · 2002-06-10 03:43 · Score: 1

From the Palm site:
Palm OS 5 incorporates a set of high-density APIs that double the screen resolution of a Palm Powered device -- from 160 x 160 pixels to 320x320 pixels.
OK, dumbass. It says right there that it has an arbitrary 320x320 limit.
Sorry, I didn't happen to attend the specific seminar at the specific conference where some obscure developer stated that the code doesn't actually have a hard limit.
Re:NOT TRUE by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 07:20 · Score: 0

You said:
Sorry, I didn't happen to attend the specific seminar at the specific conference where some obscure developer stated that the code doesn't actually have a hard limit.

You meant:
Sorry, I can't find a web page to support your statement, so you can't possibly be telling the truth. If it's not on the web, it's not true.

Wow.... 320x200 by Rahga · 2002-06-10 02:40 · Score: 3, Interesting

You know what this means.... time to port the AGI interpreters to Palm.... Space Quest II is comming to your handhelds!!!!

It shouldn't even matter if your high-res screen doesn't support color.... Many of us used to play that game on a monochrome monitor in those days. The only part that really got unplayable (before I was stuck for 4 years, damn "rub berries on body"!) was the swamp-creature-with-vines-maze. It's easy on a color screen, because the lines ar pink-on-green, but on monochrome, it looked like jibberish. :)

Re:Wow.... 320x200 by Realm+Lord · 2002-06-10 03:20 · Score: 1

Hah, I had the same problem until I got a color monitor. I'm surprised anyone else had the same problem, blast from the past.
Re:Wow.... 320x200 by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 08:26 · Score: 0

But, everyone know that Space Quest 3 was always the best out of that entire series. What was better than getting cut on that piece of metal and bleeding to death from your finger?
Re:Wow.... 320x200 by NickV · 2002-06-10 08:58 · Score: 2

Port AGI over to Palm? Meanwhile, I'm playing Day of the Tentacle and Monkey Island on my iPaq.

I love my PocketPC machine, and the fact that Palm has basically conceded that a serious OS that does more than appointment management is needed, shows just how ahead of the game MS really was in this whole battle.

Not to mention the fact that everyone HAS to upgrade their PDAs to get the new OS and that was something that Palm constantly brought up as an ANTI-PocketPC issue (the ARM vs MIPS pocketpc issue of a few years ago.) Hell, it's still on their graph. Nowadays though, MS users are having the last laugh, considering they can upgrade their PDA's OS without buying a new machine.

Palm really has dropped the ball... hopefully, this will signal a change in their stragety and they'll start to actually make money of their devices (since only Sony and Handspring seem to be pulling profit from the palmos.)
Re:Wow.... 320x200 by Rahga · 2002-06-10 10:43 · Score: 2

Cool.... I had no idea that Zac McKracken was ported into a 256-color game before I saw that page.

So is it Windows yet? by gelfling · 2002-06-10 02:41 · Score: 2

What next, 3 buttons to click to open the menu to scroll down to the 'print format' action button?

I can't wait until it starts to blue screen.

Re:So is it Windows yet? by Sloppy · 2002-06-17 16:55 · Score: 1

I recently changed my .sig, and your posts amuses me, in connection with this. "Software should get bigger every year." -- Steve Balmer, quoted in "The Zen of Palm".

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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.

BeOS??? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:44 · Score: 0

Is this the version that includes the fine work of the former Be Inc. engineers? Or is that down the road a bit? The answer to that question would likely answer other people's questions about whether or not it is multithreaded. As far as opening the source goes...Palm probably has similar problems to Be Inc. in that too much of their OS depends on licensed code to open it up. Cheers.

Prejudice? Hah! by DonkeyHote · 2002-06-10 02:45 · Score: -1

Do you have any clue how irritating it is to walk up and see a kernel stop error?

Hi! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:49 · Score: -1, Troll

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Hi-res update by p0l · 2002-06-10 02:49 · Score: 2, Funny

s/SCREEN_RES/get_screen_res()/g

or more likely: s/160/get_screen_res()/g

Not that revolutionary... by pstreck · 2002-06-10 02:50 · Score: 5, Interesting

As a Palm OS developer by trade I've been using the OS 5 development kits for about 4 months now since they were released at palm souce, and I must say that the end users really aren't going to get that much out of this latest release. Reasons being are that the ARM enhancements are designed as what are being called "armlets", small peices of code within the m68k code that is accellerated for an ARM proccessor. Palm isn't pushing native ARM applications which has pluses and minuses, new apps will still run on the older devices minus any armlet functionality, but the new ARM devices are going to have apps that are running slower than they should be do to the m68k -> arm translation. The other thing about this release new API, they've cleaned up a lot of the garbage and added a lot of new functionality so as a developer you got lots of more toys to place with, but as an end user don't expect this to be some holy grail of pda os's. Another downfall of Palms current plan for OS 5 is that they are targetting a handheld unit with a 66mhz arm proccessor, yes a 66mhz proc.. It's rediculous because the new xscale arcitechure which has 400mhz+ cpus has dropped the ARM prices dramatically. But anywho, I am excited to see a unit running OS 5.

--

Later,
Phil

Re:Not that revolutionary... by hattig · 2002-06-10 03:02 · Score: 3, Interesting

Another downfall of Palms current plan for OS 5 is that they are targetting a handheld unit with a 66mhz arm proccessor, yes a 66mhz proc..

Erm, PalmOS licenses the OS to PalmOS licensees like Palm Inc, Sony, Handera, Handspring. It is up to these manufacturers to build hardware. Palm have approved a 200MHz ARM chip from Texas Instruments IIRC. Sony can be guaranteed to use a damn fast processor as well.
Maybe you are confused, or you are spreading FUD? Maybe the OS developers are ensuring that PalmOS5 performs well on processors as slow as 66MHz (presumably the speed in power-saving mode) which is good surely?
Of course, a low cost ARM based PalmOS5 PDA running at 66MHz, with a 320x320 monochrome screen, at under $199 would be wonderful. As one of the articles pointed out, Palm are doing well because their devices are cheap and do the job, whereas PocketPC devices cost more than the sweet spot pricing...
Re:Not that revolutionary... by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 03:56 · Score: 0

More MHz = shorter battery life.

The Nokia 9200 series smart phones have a 66Mhz ARM chip and they manage to run 3D games, emulators etc..

Anyway, who really needs really fast CPUs on the move, what you going to do render some 3D Studio scenes?
Re:Not that revolutionary... by loshwomp · 2002-06-10 10:53 · Score: 1

but the new ARM devices are going to have apps that are running slower than they should be do to the m68k -> arm translation
This is misleading, because the reality is that most applications will run considerably faster on ARM, even with the emulation.. The emulated 68k environment (called PACE) is coded in pure ARM assembly, and all system calls (calls into the OS itself) execute as native ARM code. Most applications use OS services heavily, and thus will run much much faster.
In situations where the application itself implements a CPU-intensive algorithm, the emulation may slow down the execution. In many cases it's still fast enough! These situations are extremely rare, but that's what armlets are for -- small chunks of native ARM code used to boost performance of CPU-intensive routines.
they are targetting a handheld unit with a 66mhz arm proccessor
Absolutely untrue. The OS is completely agnostic to CPU speed, and processors are commonly available in speeds from 40MHz to 1GHz. Spec for hardware that ships on devices is COMPLETELY up to the licensee (e.g. Palm, Sony et. al.) but can be expected to be in the 200MHz ball park.

Moving forward finally? by essdodson · 2002-06-10 02:50 · Score: 0, Troll

When considering a PDA I considered that the PalmOS offerings really haven't come very far in the past few years. The only real advancements made were larger storage and more add ons. On the other hand PocketPC offerings offer much more and tend to have much more processing power to keep up with the latest and greatest software.

--
scott

What about PalmOS 5 supporting killing off GPS!? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 02:51 · Score: -1, Troll

What about PalmOS 5 supporting killing off GPS!?

Avoid this crap, Bluetooth blinds out GPS PCMCIA cards and GPS addons. I cant believe people want to make GPS on PDAs impossible while communicating with wireless based technologies!

No one seems to care or have a clue. In fact one appologist for bluetooth marked this post as a TROLL -1 a few minutes ago so I decided to post it 4 times in this thread starting now to make my point.

The point is : TheGPS satellites in orbit are very very weak signals by the time your GPS chips try to lock on to a good reading from 4 of them.

Bluetooth was designed to deliberately interfere with GPS because the FCC law loopholes allow them to with the harmonic order interference.

And nobody seems to care, they just like marking my original warning as -1. PalmOS5 does not care either they are behind bluetooth for no valid reason.

What worries me ... by Mr_Silver · 2002-06-10 02:56 · Score: 4, Interesting

We are taking full advantage of the technological advancements in Palm OS 5," said C. E. Steuart Dewar, president of Pimlico Software.

Pimlico software make DateBk, which is a diary replacement because Palms own version is ... well, crap. It's just too limited when you compare it to Outlook.

As much as I don't like a company going down the pan, if Palm have done it right, Pimlico would find that they won't be able to sell DateBk on the new OS. Because Palm's own diary book should be so good, that people would have no reason to update.

I've said it many times, if Palm can get their new Datebook/Memo/ToDo/Address book to sync 100% with Outlook, then they're onto an instant winner. Just because the population of /. would avoid Outlook like the plague, doesn't mean the rest of the world does. If they can take an *exact* copy of their PC stuff on their new Palm, then they'll be a happy bunch.

(I'm led to believe that even PPC doesn't sync over everything - but at least it's more than Palm)

--
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Re:What worries me ... by JLester · 2002-06-10 03:47 · Score: 3, Informative

I just got a Palm M515 and use ActionNames and PocketMirror to sync with Outlook. It syncs everything as far as I can tell .. even notes for meetings and contacts are synced properly with Notes in Outlook. It actually seems to work better for me than the iPaq I used to have.

Jason

--
"FORMAT C:" - Kills bugs dead!
Re:What worries me ... by yesthatguy · 2002-06-10 06:20 · Score: 1

What happens if you have multiple addresses for one person in Outlook? Do they all get synced, or does it just do one?

--
Yes! That guy!
Re:What worries me ... by stevel · 2002-06-10 06:25 · Score: 1

You get 'em all...
Re:What worries me ... by Octagon+Most · 2002-06-10 06:26 · Score: 1

DateBk and other applications like Action Names are not so much replacements for Palm's built-in Date Book as enhancements to it. They all use the actual Palm app in ROM and add on to it. Therefore the data that is entered into DateBk is readable by the any other application.

This is a design goal of Palm (now the separate PalmSource for the PalmOS), to keep to built-in applications simple and utilitarian and to allow for a thriving market for third party enhancements.

The Palm Date Book app in PalmOS 5 will be the same "crap" version that you don't like from OS 4.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say compared to Outlook. It sure better be limited compared to Outlook - it runs on a handheld device! Palm has bundled Pocket Mirror for synching to Outlook for some time now so users can already "take an *exact* copy of their PC stuff on their new Palm." Of course it's not perfect but look what it's trying to sync with.
Re:What worries me ... by NMerriam · 2002-06-10 06:59 · Score: 2

Palms own version is ... well, crap. It's just too limited when you compare it to Outlook.

Why in god's name would Palm want to compete on Microsoft's turf? Palm is not trying to make an all-singing, all-dancing desktop replacement that has 8 million features and nobody knows how to use them all. They are trying to make an APPLIANCE. You turn it on, and it works. You press a button and see your schedule. You click once and start a new to-do.

For those who WANT to get involved in advanced functions like linking contacts to to-dos and that sort of thing, the third market has Palm's blessing and support -- I'm a power user and make full use of DateBk5's extra features. But do I want to explain to my mom the difference between an untimed floating event and a to-do, or how to save views and use a split screen linking capability? No, I want to buy her an M500 and let her track her schedule & phone numbers with the occassional game of solitaire.

Palm is not trying to appeal to the MS Oulook users of the world -- they are selling to the Outlook Express users. Simple, one-task, gets it done.

Let Microsoft worry about producing PDAs that require 400 mhz processors, 32 megs of memory just for the OS, and last 4 hours on a battery charge. I'd rather trust my information to an appliance that is always ready to go and never dies in the middle of a meeting.

--
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Re:What worries me ... by prismatic · 2002-06-10 12:01 · Score: 1

Umm, no. They don't use the built-in ROM applications. They use the same DB as the built-in ROM applications. If you install Action Names or DateBk, and use a ROM editor to remove the Palm Datebook from ROM, DateBk or Action Names will still work fine.

Its kinda like saying vi and emacs are both extensions to pico, because data entered with vi or emacs can still be read with pico. In all actuality, though, they simply use the same format for writing files so that if you wrote it in one, its readable in the other.

--
Brian Voils
"A university is what a college becomes when the faculty loses interest in students."
Re:What worries me ... by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 15:10 · Score: 0

You press a button and see your schedule.

Not for those of us who have multi-day appointments - we only get to see it on the first day. Or we get an "upgrade" from Chapura and then our single multi-day appointment gets hacked into a bunch of single-day appointments. yech. And what happened to all my contacts' telephone numbers anyway?

Palm is not trying to appeal to the MS Oulook users of the world -- they are selling to the Outlook Express users. Simple, one-task, gets it done.

Funny, I thought Palm was trying to sell units.

There are a heck of a lot of Outlook users - many of us who do use Outlook to it's fullest - who would love to use a Palm but who don't because the conduits and/or apps just can't hold up to the data we're used to.

You can stick your nose up in the air and say "I don't have to work with Microsoft apps" all you want - but you're cutting off your own potential user base by doing so. If I were Palm's management, I wouldn't think that too good for business.

Palm OS == Golden shower by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 03:14 · Score: -1

Palm OS == Golden shower. Believe it. Wurd.

5.0 SDK also released; "GCC not supported" by John+Marshall · 2002-06-10 03:19 · Score: 5, Informative

The final 5.0 SDK was also released today (interim development versions have been available in beta for a while).

There are two C/C++ development toolchains for Palm OS: Metrowerks CodeWarrior and what's called prc-tools, which is GCC, GDB, etc configured and patched as a cross-compiler for Palm OS. Some surveys suggest that each of them has about 50% of the market of Palm OS developers.

In the past, Palm OS SDKs have supported both toolchains: the 3.5 and 4.0 SDKs contained various linker (static) libraries in both CodeWarrior format and, for GCC, COFF format. The 4.0 SDK was even available from Palm as an RPM as well as a Unix tarball.

The 5.0 SDK's ReadMe has this to say about GCC:

This release of the SDK does not provide any support for the GCC development tools for Palm OS. GCC-specific components have not been updated for this release. SDK 4.0 Update 1 should be used for development under Linux and for using GCC on Windows.

There are no GCC libraries and no Unix SDKs.

I've also posted to palm-dev-forum about this.

In practice, it's not a show-stopper: the header files, which are all you really need to use the new 5.0 APIs (notably high density graphics and ARM subroutines), work fine with GCC. There's a bit of extra pain on Unix due to line termination issues and PalmSource's lack of familiarity with case-sensitive filesystems, but it's not too bad.

The GCC link libraries are entirely missing from the 5.0 SDK. This is unfortunate: while you can easily write an application without using them, the glue routines in one of the libraries makes compatibility with various versions of the OS easier, and PalmSource recommends their use.

Curiously, while the ReadMe says the SDK "does not provide any support for [GCC]", PalmSource were happy to fix showstopper GCC-usage-related bugs in the SDK's header files when they were pointed out to them during the SDK's beta period. Thus the note in the ReadMe is not really true.

All that's really missing is the GCC linker libraries and the Unix builds of the SDK. Because they were happy to fix those header bugs, because their Web pages still claim to "support prc-tools", and because of what various PalmSource employees have told me, I don't believe there's been any conscious decision (or conspiracy :-)) not to support GCC. I think the problem is that, even though the GCC library and Unix build scripts are still lying around from the 4.0 SDK, it's simply nobody's job to take responsibility for maintaining the scripts or for pressing the button that runs them.

It's all very disappointing: in all probability, there's no technical reason why the 5.0 SDK doesn't include GCC libraries or an easily installable Unix package, it's just that no-one cared enough to make them. It seems like it was always just Someone Else's Problem.

It's not too late to fix this. The company I work for and I know how to build these things (I wrote the scripts in a previous life :-)), and we've offered to help PalmSource build them several times. Hopefully they'll take us up on it, and make the users' lives easier.

Oh, disclaimer: I'm a prc-tools maintainer.

Cheap older palm devices? by adamjaskie · 2002-06-10 03:24 · Score: 1

This rules! Now that they keep releasing these new devices with colour, mp3 players, and so on, I might be able to get an older device for next to nothing! A palm V for $50 would be nice...

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/usr/games/fortune

Argh! by r0d3nt · 2002-06-10 03:42 · Score: 1

I just got got the 4.1 upgrade last Friday! DOH!

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You are not root, go away.

Under the BeOS influence. by dsandler · 2002-06-10 03:54 · Score: 1

Troll. (If you want a little BeOS in your Palm, install Khroma and turn your form tabs orange!)

dual boot on the Zaurus by frankmu · 2002-06-10 03:59 · Score: 1

i wonder if it's poosible to dual boot the palm os on the sharp zaurus. not that it would be too useful, but a nice hack.

--
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Re:dual boot on the Zaurus by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 04:08 · Score: 0

What might be more useful is a Palm OS emulator, so the Zaurus can run palm os apps.

Evoloution is inevitable, and sometimes good. by hey! · 2002-06-10 04:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

The issue is always tradeoffs.

The current generation palms have three outstanding aspects: small form factor, long battery life, simple and reliable data replication. These also are, in my opinion, the must-dos.

If they had meant to make more of a desktop replacement (like WinCE), they would have compromised these goals initially. In time, more features like multimedia capabilities can and should be added to the platform. If they did not, then (1) people would never upgrade their existing palms, and support would be reduced over time; (2) inevitably, a killer application will appear that they will be unable to support.

However, I would be sorely disappointed if these were done in a way which compromises the most important aspects of the system in order to "measure up" to the more ambitious and less successful competition. Nobody can beat Microsoft in an arena of its own choosing.

I'm optimistic, but I'll reserve judgement until I've actually tried some of the units.

--
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.

you don't HAVE to upgrade.. ask Newton users by johnpaul191 · 2002-06-10 04:05 · Score: 1

there are still zillions of palm apps that will still run...... personally i can see your point.... i like changing batteries every two months on my IIIxe, i like it not costing too much so when (not if, when) i break/lose it i won't be out too much cash.

that being said i think they need to upgrade. people want something smaller, color, and whatever else..... one thing i would like is a faster processor (color or b&w screen). the only times i have really thought "damn i wish i had a color display" was when i was in a strange city trying to read maps (try reading NYC subway maps in b&w). if i could get a better price on it i think i would buy a kyocera smartphone right now (locked into a contract). it's a little smaller than my IIIxe and it's the same processor/memory. it incorporates dialing from the phonebook, and can go online to get movie times or whatever. i hate having a phone list in my phone and in my palm. granted they can be merged now, but it's only going to be easier with the new OS.

has anything confirmed that ALL palms will be ARM with OS5? i got the impression it was going to be a slow rollout.... they might keep making B&W palms because the price cant be beat. i'm sure a lot of apps will be written with color in mind, but if you only use it as an organizer with a few extra features... who cares? you probably dont need to upgrade anytime soon. people still run Apple Newtons, so i think a Palm V has a long life left in it.

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2002-06-10 04:09 · Score: 1

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Multi Tasking yes you can by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 04:21 · Score: 0

I commonly use the notepad, address book and other apps while on my Treo (180).
It's one of the reasons I like it so much, jot notes while talking on the phone.
No you can't web surf at the same time, but that's a limitation of the wireless service, not the PalmOS.

Innovation has left Palm in the dust by Melantha_Bacchae · 2002-06-10 04:24 · Score: 5, Informative

In the early days of the Palm Pilot, all was shiny and new. Developers loved it, and cranked out tons of shareware and freeware. All the software expanded its scope far beyond being just a PDA.

Some of the original people left the company to found Handspring. They created the Springboard module for their PDAs, and everything was exciting again. Palm *followed* by adding a SD card to their PDAs. Instead of market leader, Palm became market imitator. In fact, their attempt at OS X desktop software (version 4.0) was so bad that Handspring was recommending that their Mac customers stick with version 2.* under Classic! Then again, Handspring abandoned the Springboard, leaving the Palm world pretty dull except for some of Sony's hardware.

So, does that leave us with Microsoft? Hardly! Some time ago, Microsoft drove Sharp out of the US market (basically Sharp wasn't going to play umpteenth fiddle in the Pocket PC world in the US, and so took its toys home in a huff). Sharp worked hard back in Japan, and built themselves up into the leading PDA there, with enough marketshare to become the fifth largest PDA maker in the world. Still Sharp wanted to come back to the US with a bang, so they decided to carve out their own niche that they could be #1 in. Taking a page out of Apple's book, Sharp built their best Zaurus ever and took an open source operating system (Linux), a very cool GUI (hey, Qtopia isn't Aqua, but it leaves other PDA GUIs looking, well, flat ;), and added some yummy Java. They ran a beta version past developers, who enthusiastically saluted, and released it this spring in the US. Like in the Palm's youth, applications are being rapidly developed for it (and anything that doesn't get away quickly enough is getting ported).

I've got a Palm III and a Handspring Visor Platinum. My Zaurus blows them away. There is really no comparison. The Zaurus is a tiny but real multiprocessing Linux workstation that is a worthy companion to my OS X Macs. It coexists beautifully on my Airport network, sharing files (via FTP) with my Macs and browsing the web with a real browser capable of reading Slashdot (not those dinky postage stamp "pages" for PDAs). It can read and write Word and Excel files (even those created in AppleWorks). It can view pictures from my digital camera, play MP3s, and even view a GMK trailer ("Honey, I shrunk Godzilla and Mothra!";). I can create full tar'ed backups with a couple of taps, and use FTP and my G4 iMac to back the backups up on a CD.

The one thing the Zaurus lacks is a desktop with sync support under OS X. I only use the Zaurus with my Macs and I'm not missing the ability to sync. In fact, I use the cradle as a charging station, I've never plugged the USB cable into anything. The Zaurus is powerful enough to stand on its own as long as you do backups often. If Sharp and Trolltech never get the Mac support done, a third party could write what they need, since the data is stored in XML and both the Zaurus and OS X have good Java support. Wireless syncing via Java would be more fun anyway.

"The path of peace is yours to discover for eternity."
"Mosura", 1961

Re:Innovation has left Palm in the dust by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 04:43 · Score: 0

You can ftp into port 4242 of a networked zaurus.
Re:Innovation has left Palm in the dust by Anonymous Coward · 2002-06-10 05:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

This is not true. Consider the following:

Palm's introduction of the SD Card led Handspring to discontinue the Springboard. Why would anyone want a proprietary "Springboard" module when the industry could standardize on existing technology?

Palm's devices are "whiz-bang" with all the latest gadgets. Have you ever heard of the "zen of Palm"? Palm owes it's success to the fact that they have kept it simple. While it is nice to have streaming video on a handheld, is it worth the extra weight and price? Do you use it that much? If so, then a PocketPC is the right choice for you!

Sharp's Zaurus has a fatal flaw: they require a licensing fee for every application developed. Palm had developers coming from everywhere because they were easy to work with. To develop for the Zaurus, it costs money. While this is not a major obstacle for most people, the majority of Palm developers are lone individuals with very limited budgets. I have developed applications for the Palm, and seriously considered the Zaurus. But I am sticking with Palm.

OS 5.0 promises great new features. I am excited about the possibilities in some of the new hardware due out.

Don't discount Palm because they don't have all the features of your laptop.
Re:Innovation has left Palm in the dust by Melantha_Bacchae · 2002-06-10 13:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

An AC wrote:

> Palm's introduction of the SD Card led Handspring
> to discontinue the Springboard. Why would anyone
> want a proprietary "Springboard" module when the
> industry could standardize on existing technology?

1) Handspring is discontinuing the Springboard (and eventually the Visor) so they can concentrate on the Treo.

2) Try sticking a wireless modem or digital camera into a SD card. You can do that with the Springboard. You can do that with the Compact Flash port on the Zaurus. Not too many of those items available as SD cards, even if the format would support them. (The Zaurus also takes SD cards so you can get online and have someplace to put your downloads.)

> Palm's devices are "whiz-bang" with all the
> latest gadgets.

Which explains how I was doing some of the things Palm OS 5.0 introduces on my Zaurus way before Palm OS 5.0 came out.

> Have you ever heard of the "zen of Palm"?

Zen is big on emptiness and simplicity. Not a flurry of whiz-bang gadgets.

> If so, then a PocketPC is the right choice for
> you!

If I put a Godzilla movie trailer on a PDA running Microsoft's OS, I would be in serious trouble. Godzilla kills Microsoft running PDA owners!

> Sharp's Zaurus has a fatal flaw: they require a
> licensing fee for every application developed.

Oh no! I almost wrote a Java app on my Zaurus! Thank you for telling me I have to send money to Sharp first!

Now run over to Source Forge and warn them. Those people are illegally developing applications for the Zaurus! Horrors! ;)

Catch a clue. It's Linux. You can't breath on the command line without accidentally writing a shell script.

> But I am sticking with Palm.

Good for you. I wish you joy of it. :)

> I am excited about the possibilities in some of
> the new hardware due out.

I've already got a 206 mhz ARM PDA with the best screen in the industry and a built in keyboard. I've been having fun with it for a couple of months now.

> Don't discount Palm because they don't have all
> the features of your laptop.

My laptop is a Mac running OS X. There is no PDA on the market that can equal that. But the Zaurus comes as close as I've ever seen. ;)

What happens when you embrace and extend Godzilla? Nuclear heartburn!
See "Godzilla 2000" (released in Japan as "Godzilla 2000 Millenium") for details.
Re:Innovation has left Palm in the dust by MartinJ · 2002-06-10 16:03 · Score: 2, Informative

Sharp's Zaurus has a fatal flaw: they require a licensing fee for every application developed

If you want to write Free (GPL) software you can get a free SDK here.

Upgrade? by detritus. · 2002-06-10 09:44 · Score: 1

Anyone know the details of whether current Palm models (m5xx) will be supported for a possible upgrade to version 5?

hex by Hex+Rules · 2002-06-10 12:45 · Score: -1, Offtopic

I've been seing some decimal on slashdot, which geeks hate. So I've been posting this reply. So, why are you using decimal here? Do you understand number bases? I think you don't, otherwise you would use hexadecimal. Repost in hexadecimal--you may use "0x" as a prefix or "h" as a suffix. Perhaps you can learn at this since it is possible you don't understand. Or perhaps you are too stupid to ever understand hexadecimal and will be stuck with decimal.

hex by Hex+Rules · 2002-06-10 12:48 · Score: -1, Offtopic

I've been seing some decimal on slashdot, which geeks hate. So I've been posting this reply. So, why are you using decimal here? Do you understand number bases? I think you don't, otherwise you would use hexadecimal. Repost in hexadecimal--you may use "0x" as a prefix or "h" as a suffix. Perhaps you can learn at this since it is possible you don't understand. Or perhaps you are too stupid to ever understand hexadecimal and will be stuck with decimal.

hex by Hex+Rules · 2002-06-10 12:51 · Score: -1, Offtopic

I've been seing some decimal on slashdot, which geeks hate. So I've been posting this reply. So, why are you using decimal here? Do you understand number bases? I think you don't, otherwise you would use hexadecimal. Repost in hexadecimal--you may use "0x" as a prefix or "h" as a suffix. Perhaps you can learn at this since it is possible you don't understand. Or perhaps you are too stupid to ever understand hexadecimal and will be stuck with decimal.

Your offense here is $50. Repost in hexadecimal.

Re: ARM CPUs by ceallaigh · 2002-06-10 14:52 · Score: 1

I don't know where you get this 66Mhz ARM from. Intel, TI, Motorola, and now QMedia are all porting Palm OS to run on their latest ARM based CPUs. It's well known that they are offering: Xscale(V5 instruction set) Omap(926T core) Dragonball(920T core) Qmedia's cpu is ? Anyway, all of these puppies run at 150MHz plus.

digitiser problems by robin · 2002-06-10 22:18 · Score: 2

the digitizer goes mad every now and then, which is very annoying to reset

Yeah, that is very annoying. I use DigiFix, which helps by starting the digitiser calibration app on a soft reset.

--
W.A.S.T.E.

More Zaurus neat stuff by ralphc · 2002-06-11 02:43 · Score: 1

I'll second everything Melantha said and add:

Your choices for getting files to & from a Zaurus aren't just FTP via networking or the cradle. The Zaurus comes with both CompactFlash and SD/MMC slots, and you can get USB adapters for both. I run Windows XP at home and when I plug the CompactFlash adapter into the USB port it just appears as another drive. This is how I copy files, backups, etc. back and forth. The CompactFlash is also nice since my digital camera works with it, I can take pictures then slap the card into the Zaurus to show others the pictures since the Zaurus screen is much more viewable than the digital camera.

The "low-level" API for GUI development is QT/embedded. Embedded means that they take the same C++ API you use for Windows or X11 development and ported it to talk directly to the framebuffer. Any QT program is (theoritically, anyway) capable of being ported to the Zaurus.

What I'm most psyched about is the Java support. It's PersonalJava, which is mostly 1.1 with some 1.2 enhancements here and there. This is in contrast to Palm Java development, which is J2ME based (Sun hasn't supported the KVM for a while), and you need to set up emulators, get ROMs, make sure you have the special J2ME UI libraries, etc. Did I also mention most of this stuff is for Windows only? Melantha would be SOL with a MAC. For the Zaurus I just compile and run what I want and just stick to 1.1. If I'm patient I can then package my class files, icons for the PDA desktop, etc. and "install" it, but most of the time I'm impatient and just copy my .class files to the Zaurus via my CompactFlash setup and run them from a linux terminal.

To make a long story short, with the Zaurus I have a PDA and a "hand-held desktop" I can quickly develop my own programs for. I'm never going back to Palm.

score +5 funny! by larry+bagina · 2002-06-24 08:19 · Score: 1

that's the funniest thing I've ever read!

--
Do you even lift?

These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

193 comments