Circuit City Phases Out VHS

Rashan writes: "Video Business Online is reporting that Circuit City is becoming the first of the mass merchants to state its intent to discontinue sales of the aging video format."

Comments

Wow, like this hasn't happened before...

[FortKnox]

Ever tried to by a tape of your favorite new album?

I would think that this is about time

[Tim_F]

Just as we have seen record stores phasing out tapes over the last few years, we know start to see the same with VHS. And it's about time. VHS tapes degrage horribly over time.

Re:I would think that this is about time

[plover]

Yeah, but are you going to trust the forecasting ability of the company that saw the future of video was DIVX?

Anyway, since VHS is still the primary *recording* medium of the consumer, I wonder if they'll continue to sell VCRs?

I just mentally picture Circuit City as being more "in the pocket" of Sony et al, especially when it comes to playing with the anti-copying lobbyists.

Re:I would think that this is about time

[SomeoneYouDontKnow]

Yes, but how do you record TV shows? Are PVR's being sold in large numbers there, or have people moved to other tape formats, such as Hi-8 and DVC?

Granted, VHS sucks as a recording medium, but it's just about all we have that's cheap and readily available. I like the idea of PVRs, but I don't want to pay a monthly subscription fee for the privilege of being able to use one, and after the crap that TiVo recently pulled in the UK, I definitely have an aversion to them.

Re:I would think that this is about time

[Knoxvill3]

Degrade? My copy of Debbie Does Dallas plays just as well as it did back in the early 90's as it does today!

Of which, anyone know where I can locate this great release on DVD? :grin:

Re:I would think that this is about time

[Marco_polo]

I know!

I have tapes where uhhh.. certain.. uhh "scenes" are all distorted from repeated rewind-play-rewind-play

-T

Re:I would think that this is about time

[slaker]

Try WantedList for NetFlix-like porno-rental of over 10,000 titles.

I'm not affliated in any way, other than as a happy customer.

Re:I would think that this is about time

[embarcadero]

No. There's a huge, massive, practically engorged difference between the VHS and audio cassette markets.

Audiophiles could limp toward CD purchasing without too much concern, but the true VHS addicts are turgid in their desire to replay and replay particular favorite scenes from old collections, even if they originally shot in the 80s.

Now, I realize that their VHS performance does degrade over time, it's pretty clear these hard-core fans will happily squeeze out 50 or 60 bucks for new versions of the same old tapes.

Clearly, these fans are also being teased by more modern devices, like DVDs and the Internet, but they're not going to wipe up and flush their VHS collections.
And if their VCR breaks, there's no question they're going to buy a brand-spanking new one. They've just got too much stock on hand to ignore.

Re:I would think that this is about time

[SomeoneYouDontKnow]

Amen to that! Now, maybe Lucas will finally decide that DVD has officially arrived and release the bulk of his movies on it.

I wonder...does the man even own a DVD player? Aside from all the issues with CSS, Macrovision, and region coding, it's a damn good video format. Why he is so damn stubborn about not releasing his back catalog on it is beyond me.

Re:I would think that this is about time

[NanoGator]

"VHS tapes degrage horribly over time. "

There are two things I like about VHS:

1.) They can't play games with new encryption technologies or whatever to prevent me from capturing it. *Glares at the RIAA and their computer crashing CD's*

2.) Since DVD's are decidedly superior, VHS versions are usually cheaper. There are some movies that are worth $10, but not worth $20, even if the quality is higher. For example: Castaway. This is a movie you watch maybe once or twice, and the extra resolution isn't going to change your appreciation of the movie. It's not like AI where the visuals are incredible and you ache for every pixel you can lay your eyes on.

So yah, they degrade, but they're a nice alternative to paying $20 - $25 for a movie you only kind of want.

Re:I would think that this is about time

[slipgun]

Why he is so damn stubborn about not releasing his back catalog on it is beyond me.

Especially when he gets so excited about digital cinema...

Ahhhh

[Pyrosz]

But I can still buy Beta, right?

Who shops at circuit city?

[Anonymous Coward]

Their sales people work on commission (at least they seem to) and are always pestering me when I shop there. Generally, I'm quite informed about what I'm looking for, and don't really want them buzzing around me trying to point me at things I'm not interested in.

About 5 years ago, I was looking for a new cordless phone to take back to college with me. 900mhz was the thing to buy (spread spectrum baby!), and the salesman was like "Wow, that's a powerful phone, you don't need that." and I was like "Yes, yes I do. I live in a dorm with many people with many cordless phones and I need one with more than a handful of non-encrypted channels." and then we had a big fight. So anyway, I didn't buy the phone there. I went to Best Buy, and this "too powerful" phone is the one I still use, and it still kicks ass (now in an apartment building.)

Re:Who shops at circuit city?

[old7]

Not only do they earn commission, they earn their commission based on the profit of an item. That "too powerful" phone you were trying to purchase was probably a loss leader and had a very poor profit margin. He was likely trying to steer you a phone with a better profit margin and of course a better commission for him. Commission is still commission, but don't be fooled into thinking that the more expensive item will yield a better commission for the salesperson.

Re:Who shops at circuit city?

[Jucius Maximus]

"About 5 years ago, I was looking for a new cordless phone to take back to college with me. 900mhz was the thing to buy (spread spectrum baby!), and the salesman was like "Wow, that's a powerful phone, you don't need that." and I was like "Yes, yes I do. I live in a dorm with many people with many cordless phones and I need one with more than a handful of non-encrypted channels." and then we had a big fight. So anyway, I didn't buy the phone there. I went to Best Buy, and this "too powerful" phone is the one I still use, and it still kicks ass (now in an apartment building.)"

That sounds quite similar to what happened to me at Radio Shack last year when shopping for a cell phone. The guy tried to steer me away from certain phones because the service plans for them were 'too expensive.' (These were the pay as you go plans where, although the per minute rate is high, they are still cheapest for low-useage folks like me. I have one such phone right now and I pay CDN$10/month for useage.)

Re:Who shops at circuit city?

[colmore]

best buy's CD collection is great if you only shop for RIAA artists. try to find someone from an indie label, though.

if i didn't live in a town with well stocked locally owned record stores (that actually sell records) i don't know what i'd do.

Re:Who shops at circuit city?

[4of12]

He was likely trying to steer you a phone with a better profit margin and of course a better commission for him.

Heh.

"Would you like an extended warranty with that?"

Re:Who shops at circuit city?

[SCHecklerX]

heh. One night, I went there to look at memory sticks. I got pested by one, fair enough, told them it is ok, I'm just browsing to see what's out there.

2 minutes later, got hit by another one. Annoying, but still put them away politely.

1 minute later ANOTHER one. Now I start to get upset.

3 minutes later YET ANOTHER. needless to say, this one got the terse 'NO!' along with the full glare.

I didn't get bothered again from then on.

The funny thing is, when I actually DO go there READY TO BUY, I cannot get a salesperson to come over even if I jump around on one leg and wave my arms around like a chicken.

Re:Who shops at circuit city?

[guinsu]

What like Jade Tree or Revalation Records, Touch and Go or Sub Pop? Best Buy has a better selection than my local indie store, even when it comes to indie releases.

good news for linux?

[tps12]

One of the (many!) drawbacks of VHS is that it is analog; there is no reasonable way of watching a VHS tape on one's computer. With DVDs, of course, all it takes is a cheap drive and a halfway decent video card, and you're set.

It just so happens that one of the many things at which Linux excels is in viewing DVDs (I have seen articles claim 25% better framerates vs. Windows). Not to mention that many of the set-top boxes that people are starting to hook up to their TVs run Linux rather than Windows.

The increased popularity of DVDs over VHS is bound to improve Linux mindshare and marketshare.

Re:good news for linux?

[tiltowait]

>The increased popularity of DVDs over VHS is bound to improve Linux mindshare and marketshare.

Yes, and Spiderman is an allegory for our post-911 globalism. Quit trying to Katz-connect everything. Who the hell watches movies on computers?

Re:good news for linux?

[colmore]

college students do.

in the past year, i have seen probably over 100 DVDs, all of them either on a computer monitor, or played off of a PS2.

If I've allready payed a few hundred bucks for a 19 inch screen, I'm not dropping more cash (and giving up more space) for another CRT, especially given that I don't watch television.

Re:good news for linux?

[treat]

It just so happens that one of the many things at which Linux excels is in viewing DVDs

Except that 1) you are committing a crime by posessing a DVD player for Linux, 2) The DVD players for Linux have terrible user interfaces, 3) The DVD players for Linux are unreliable at best, 4) The DVD players for Linux are some of the only software that can cause the entire X server to crash.

Re:good news for linux?

[NanoGator]

"One of the (many!) drawbacks of VHS is that it is analog; there is no reasonable way of watching a VHS tape on one's computer."

On the flip side, they can't prevent you from capturing VHS to a PC. Unfortunately, DVD's make it a lot harder for you to do that. And since DVD's are digital, they can concievably mutate the standard to force you to take new steps to rip them.

Heh I wonder if I can take my firewire video camera and get it to capture NTSC somehow. There isn't a jack to do that. Pity because once the video's on tape (at broadcast quality...) I can run it down the Firewire port and have a perfect copy of it, ready for encoding.

Re:good news for linux?

[ncc74656]

It just so happens that one of the many things at which Linux excels is in viewing DVDs (I have seen articles claim 25% better framerates vs. Windows).

Quit yer trolling...if you're getting 29.97 fps, you're getting as much out of a DVD as you can.

Re:good news for linux?

[ncc74656]

All those people with PVRs boast about saving time watching TV by pausing the first 20 minutes and then skipping ads. Since DVDs don't have ads (at least not as interruptions), playing them substantially faster than 60 fields/second is the obvious step.

If you buy PAL DVDs and play them on your region-free DVD player, they should be sped up by about 4-5%. FilmNTSC transfers are telecined with a 3:2 pulldown that generates one extra frame for every four frames of film. Since film runs at 24 fps and NTSC runs at 29.97 fps, the film is actually slowed down just a little bit (to 23.976 fps). In a filmPAL transfer, though, they just speed up the film and telecine it at 25 fps.

I suppose this

[Gehenna_Gehenna]

is one of the first legitimate signs that DVD is here to stay. Obviously circut city beleives that they are now outdated. I just wish that more obscure and/or old films and shows would come out on dvd. I need the good ole' VCR to watch my stupidly huge collection of "V" episodes...

Re:I suppose this

[david duncan scott]

Where "stupidly huge" is any number greater than 0? (Although I did lke it when that girl unlocked her jaw and ate the guinea pig.)

Camcorders, security cameras?

[GigsVT]

I assume there will still be a niche market for security cameras and camcorder type cameras.

On the plus side, if anyone is looking for a good security camera program that is open source, I recommend "Motion". I was going to use a VHS based security setup, but went with it instead, with VHS as a backup un case the computer crashes.

hmmm...

[Dr. Awktagon]

Anyone else remember the far-sighted and insightful (ha) judge in the DeCSS case that said hey, you don't need to make excerpts from DVDs, because the analog format is available?

Not that I'm crying about the loss of VHS tapes, that's for sure. As soon as PVRs have built-in DVD writers, clunky tapes that operate by scraping against a metal disk will be a distant memory.

Re:hmmm...

[unformed]

Not that I'm crying about the loss of VHS tapes, that's for sure. As soon as PVRs have built-in DVD writers, clunky tapes that operate by scraping against a metal disk will be a distant memory.

Exactly, tapes died down when CDRs become in general use; as soon as DVDRs become another general consumer product, with taping and transfers available from different media, VHS will die down; until then VHS (converted from 8mm, digital, etc) will still be used for home movies, and things like that.

Keep in mind

[joeflies]

that this article is about phasing out pre-recorded VHS tapes. It doesn't say that it will phase out VCRs.

Re:Keep in mind

[Uruk]

VCRs are going to be a whole lot harder to kill. Even this phasing out of VHS is mostly targetted at new sales of movies. But VHS is everywhere, from budget video surveillance systems, to home movie collections, and many other applications that don't have anything to do with the MPAA or movies. :)

Eventually, VCRs will be the kind of long forgotten technical oddity that ends up in an electronics museum, but that's still going to be a while.

Re:Keep in mind

[xtremex]

Cassettes were everywhere too. I still have over 1,000 casettes...I did upgrade alot of them. I no longer BUY cassettes, but I will never toss my collection. (I am a big 80's metal fan :)) Do you have any idea how much it would cost to upgrade my collection? Plus, I don't have the time or the desire to transfer all my cassettes to CD.

Re:Keep in mind

[elemental23]

From the article:

Circuit City will continue to carry blank VHS tape and VCRs, he added.

The comment about VCRs was from Charles Van Horn, president of the International Recording Media Association, not from a Circuit City representative.

Re:Keep in mind

[laserjet]

Of course you do. Just get a P2P file sharing proggie and there you are. Music *wants* to be free!

Re:Keep in mind

[laserjet]

My fiance gave me the DVD set... wow. Both are an exellent set to own... your friends would be jealous.

and at $75, I still think it was worth every penny.. especially since I didn't pay for it. :)

But you raise a point: It drives me nuts that DVDs are actually cheaper to produce than VHS tapes, yet they artificially raise the price, just like CDs. When they are cheaper than VHS is the day they will be more popular.

Another thing I hate is that while most people have a DVD player or are planning to get one, video rental stores have nowhere NEAR the collection of DVD's as they do DVD's. I mean not even close. I like renting movies, and I rent 95% of them on VHS.

I think the future (5 years + from now) is in movie-on-demand via Cable and Sattelite. (yes, I know pay-per -view has been available for quite some time, but the infrastructure is coming together to offer digital on demand videos). A pirates dream.

Re:Keep in mind

[xtremex]

Trust me..80% of the cassettes I have were indies...I've already made the ones that I could digital..I believe I'm the only one who has or wants the original :)

Forcing the market change

[M_Talon]

This is just the next step in the evolution of the format. Now that it's gained customer acceptance, the stores can get rid of the inferior technology (VHS) and concentrate their business. It happened with audio cassettes (vinyl was killed), and it happened with CDs (bye bye cassettes).

As far as being a premature move, everyone that I talk to nowadays either has a DVD player or plans on getting one within the year. Sounds like the perfect opportunity for the stores to push those last few stragglers to DVD by eliminating the VHS market for new releases.

Besides, wouldn't you rather have more room on the shelves for the latest anime imports? ;)

Re:Forcing the market change

[Jason Earl]

Exactly. Circuit city sells DVD players, it is in their best interest to coerce people into purchasing a DVD player. One of the easiest ways to do this is to make it more difficult to get the movies people want to see on VHS. If Circuit City can convince millions of people tha their VHS player is obsolete then they make out like bandits.

Re:Forcing the market change

[radish]

It happened with audio cassettes (vinyl was killed)

Really? That's strange. I could have sworn that last time I was in the Virgin Megastore in central London they dedicated at least 10% of their total floorspace (including CD/DVD/games etc) to vinyl. I must have been imagining it.

Note to the unwise - vinyl sales are on the up, they have been for 5 years. At least 50% of the major single releases each week are available on vinyl. 100% of dance oriented ones are. The vast majority of dance music (the biggest selling sector in europe) is ONLY available on vinyl.

And turntables regularly out-do guitars in the annual christmas gift surveys :-)

Re:Forcing the market change

[CanadaDave]

As far as being a premature move, everyone that I talk to nowadays either has a DVD player or plans on getting one within the year

I have delayed in purchasing a DVD player due to the price. But this latest development should help decrease the price even more! Woohoo.

Re:Forcing the market change

[IxnayOnTheIxnay]

Note to the unwise - vinyl sales are on the up, they have been for 5 years. At least 50% of the major single releases each week are available on vinyl. 100% of dance oriented ones are. The vast majority of dance music (the biggest selling sector in europe) is ONLY available on vinyl.

"Did you know that disco record sales were up 400% for the year ending 1976? If these trends continue... AAY!"

And turntables regularly out-do guitars in the annual christmas gift surveys

I don't care, I'm still going to replace my record collection with my own guitar playing.

Re:Forcing the market change

[Ralph Wiggam]

Yes, dance music and vinyl are always entwined because of how dance music is DJed. Yes, dance music is much more popular in Europe than here in the states. Yes, vinyl sales are up over the last 5 years.

Now the bad part:
Vinyl sales are down 90% from 1989 and probably much more from 1979, but I can't find good numbers pre-1989.

If you were to walk in to any major chain store in the US and ask where they kept the LPs, they would look at you like you were from another planet.

-B

Re:Forcing the market change

[Hard_Code]

I won't convert to DVD until it is completely safe of DMCA/UBDTCADFDSASBXCASFAF/copyright-gestapo restrictions. We fall so easily for the same old trick. Now we have to repurchase all our old content because VHS is being phased out (just like we had to pay x2 to upgrade to CD)? No thanks, I'd rather *legally* digitize my copy-unrestricted VHS tapes and burn them onto (if it is DVDR I'll already be unduly taxed for "piracy"). In fact, the first thing I'm going to do after I purchase the new VHS movie I want today, is to download *legally* a DivXed copy (save myself the trouble of digitization). Just watch 10 years from now it will be flourescent video disc technology and we will be on the same upgrade treadmill throwing away mountains of DVDs and repurchasing our property all over again.

Re:Forcing the market change

[ph0rk]

If you walk in to any major chain store and ask where they kept all the music that didn't suck they'd probably look at you the same way.

Re:Forcing the market change

[the_rev_matt]

For less afluent people, CDs/CD players are too expensive. Which, of course, puts DVD players way out of their range. But I guess it's OK for poor people to not be able to afford entertainment, right?

I don't have a DVD player yet, and don't have plans to get one. I rent movies once in a while, I tape shows to watch at my convenience a *lot*. And don't give me that "You should just get a Tivo" bullshit. Not everyone spends their every last penny on geek toys. Some of us have families to support.

Re:Forcing the market change

[Artifex]

In fact, the first thing I'm going to do after I purchase the new VHS movie I want today, is to download *legally* a DivXed copy (save myself the trouble of digitization).

Just remember that it's not legal for you to download and use any content that isn't part of the original VHS tape you bought, like deleted scenes, director commentary, or anything else added only to the digital format; those are all covered by separate copyright.

Re:Forcing the market change

[zbuffered]

Nobody makes you repurchase your content just because it's out in a new format. But people will do it because new formats are generally superior in some way to old ones, ie vhs -> dvd.

That being said, you have a good point about digitizing VHS movies instead of fscking around with DeCSS-type stuff. Too bad the public isn't with you, and as such, VHS will one day die. No, moreso than VHS dying, fair use rights with video will die.

Shed a tear.

Re:Forcing the market change

[binaryDigit]

Now we have to repurchase all our old content because VHS is being phased out

Why do you have to repurchase your old content? Are you watching your tapes so frequently you are wearing them out (if you have kids, then I can definitly see this happening). You already stated that you would just make backups anyway. Who's going to push that big red button rendering the earths supply of vcr's inoperable?

The albums that I've replaced with cd were because of the convenience of cd or lp (those CE bastards, how could they) and/or the better quality of the recording. Apparently you upgraded because you thought you were supposed to?

Re:Forcing the market change

[foobar104]

This is interesting. There's a new type of Ludditism. Instead of rejecting technology prima facie, you're rejecting technologies based on what you call "copyright gestapo restrictions."

For a contrary opinion to that popularly expressed by Slashdotters, head over to the avsforum.com HDTV recorders posting board. There you'll find lots of people enthusiastically supporting copy protection methods like JVC's D-Theater format. Why? Because they know that without those sorts of protections-- or restrictions, if you prefer-- the studios will never release their movies in 1080i format on any medium. A movie recorded in high-bit-rate 1080i is very close, when viewed on consumer gear with a slightly forgiving eye, to an HD master. Studios simply won't release near-master-quality tapes or discs unless they're confident that those movies won't be copied like crazy.

I like owning and watching high-quality movies; that's why I've invested in a high-definition TV, a DVD player, and a collection of DVDs. I'm not interested in making copies of my movies, so the fact that I'm (a) not allowed to, and (b) prevented from doing so doesn't bother me in the least.

So I vocally support copy protection-- or restriction, or prevention, or whatever you want to call it. Without it, I won't be able to watch movies in high definition, and that'd be disappointing. Every time somebody pirates a video, CD, or DVD, they make it ever so slightly less likely that I'll be able to get the kind of entertainment I want in the future.

Re:Forcing the market change

[Jonavin]

Just hop over to FutureShop (aka BestBuy Canada). They have models for less than CDN$100, although I can speak for the quality of those. For about CDN$200 (not much more than a VCR) you can get a pretty decent named brand DVD with 5.1 audio.

Re:Forcing the market change

[Hard_Code]

"You already stated that you would just make backups anyway. Who's going to push that big red button rendering the earths supply of vcr's inoperable?"

* one day the VHS tapes will inevitably degrade to being unusable
* same thing goes for VCRs
* I can back up my content digitally, but there is no guarantee that the MPAA/DVD industry won't simply refuse to play any DVDs that haven't been stamped with their particular copy-restriction technology, rendering my backups unusable
* So basically I have to wait it out until some technology comes along that will allow me to restore and use my backups
* Until that day, *which may never come*, the media industry has rendered my content worthless

Now ask yourself the same then about data on your hard drive. How comfortable would you be if the hard drive industry could just forcefully deprecate all current hard drives and force all new hard drives to carry "officially stamped" data, rendering your data useless?

Re:Forcing the market change

[svferris]

A friend of mine recently went into a record store and asked where the vinyl was. The guy looked at him and said "What's a vinyl?".

I can just imagine it was the epitome of the pimply-faced kid from Simpsons.

"I'll have to check with my manager on that..."

Re:Forcing the market change

[sydbarrett74]

>Note to the unwise - vinyl sales are on the up, >they have been for 5 years. At least 50% of the >major single releases each week are available on >vinyl. 100% of dance oriented ones are. The vast >majority of dance music (the biggest selling >sector in europe) is ONLY available on vinyl. Yeah but many argue (quite rightfully) that vinyl has a warm quality and a mystique to it that CD's don't have. VHS has no such advantage over DVD. Unlike Vinyl/CD's, DVD truly is superior to VHS in every manner, fashion and form.

Re:Forcing the market change

[Hard_Code]

"But I guess it's OK for poor people to not be able to afford entertainment, right?"

If I recall correctly it is the poor that are the largest consumers of popular entertainment. Which makes this even more a crime. Because us (relatively) rich geeks can just go out and upgrade or hack around with our thousands of dollars of PC equipment while the poor are hoodwinked into a higher and higher barrier to participation in culture. And that is an utter shame.

Re:Forcing the market change

[arkanes]

You know, no matter what this guy says, I don't know ANYONE who bemoans the "loss" of vinyl, and I only know OF a couple people. The vast majority of vinyl freaks will, instead, go out of thier way to tell me how much vinyl is still in the game, like the guy who posted above. And CDs are a vastly superior technology, subjective issues about sound quality aside. I never had to re-buy all my vinyl, because I never had any - by the time I moved out of my parents house, CDs were cheap and CD players were affordable, even for a teenager newly entering the workforce. I wasn't forced to choose anything - I'd picked CDs over tapes and I'd pick tapes over vinyl. They're more convenient and more durable.

Re:Forcing the market change

[oni]

I like owning and watching high-quality movies;

Do you like watching them only on Tuesday?

The reason I ask this ridiculous question is that by accepting the bonds of IP control, you accept the possibility that a studio may, for whatever reason, restrict your viewing even further. In the future, they may well decree that you can only watch a given movie on Tuesday, or that you may only watch it while sitting in a particular chair. Use your imagination and come up with something that you would object to. The problem is, it will be much more difficult to stand up to them then than it is now.

To put it another way, since you refuse to support people who object to the studios today, there will be nobody to support you when you decide to stand against them tomorrow.

Re:Forcing the market change

[zzyzx]

You're right. There's nothing that could be done. People are forced to buy movies after all.

If the restrictions are too onerous, no one will buy the discs.

Re:Forcing the market change

[gvonk]

* I can back up my content digitally, but there is no guarantee that the MPAA/DVD industry won't simply refuse to play any DVDs that haven't been stamped with their particular copy-restriction technology, rendering my backups unusable

Then I have one piece of advice for you-- get in your car and SPEED as FAST as you can to your local electronics store. Then sprint into the store, breathlessly gasping the question "where--dvd-r---recorders?"
Buy the first one you see.
Also pick up 10,000 dvd-r blanks (hey, you're already in the store, may as well).
This should cover just about everything you should want to watch.
I guaran-damn-tee you (with a few pedantic exceptions that slashdot will *cough forest cough trees* inevitably point out) that this setup will last you for life, covering the existing technology from your vcr to your dvd-r to your tv. Plus, the discs will degrade long after you're dead!

* So basically I have to wait it out until some technology comes along that will allow me to restore and use my backups

See above.

Re:Forcing the market change

[Hard_Code]

Wow, I bet it feels nice to have so much money that you can subsidize the media industry's foray into HDTV. On the other hand, I don't really give a damn about HDTV, and don't feel it is my responsibility to subsidize opening their new market. I don't give a damn that the same old retreaded stale homogenized crap that Hollywood and the RIAA pump out now comes to me in 3200x2400 resolution at 32bit color depth. Your telivision will not be revolutionized.

Some people don't only want to be mindless consumers. Fair use is necessary to participate in the generation of culture, for art, for literature, for many common goods of society. Currently the "media industry" has a pretty tight lock on culture - it's a one way street: they generate it and we slurp it up. When they need to turn another buck they deprecate what's currently "cool" and sell us a new retread.

Re:Forcing the market change

[binaryDigit]

* one day the VHS tapes will inevitably degrade to being unusable

Right, and hence your backups. Though with the sheer quantity of a given title available, unless you're trying to save something obscure, it's hard to imagine you would have any problem playing a copy.

same thing goes for VCRs

You can still purchase wax cylinder players that are over 100 years old, and those were sold in the thousands. And I'm talking easily purchase (just bop over to ebay and pick one up). We're talking about a device that has sold (and will continue to sell for a least a little while) in the millions. Now true, current players are POS generally, and you're lucky to get them to work 10 months, let alone 100 years, but there will still be plenty to be had.

* I can back up my content digitally, but there is no guarantee that the MPAA/DVD industry won't simply refuse to play any DVDs that haven't been stamped with their particular copy-restriction technology, rendering my backups unusable

Many dvd players can't play vcd's anyway (though many can). If the thing is just saved as an mpeg anyway, just make sure you keep a copy of your mpeg player around, and it won't be an issue.

* So basically I have to wait it out until some technology comes along that will allow me to restore and use my backups * Until that day, *which may never come*, the media industry has rendered my content worthless

Why wait, you just need to _preserve_ the technology. Just as you're preserving the content. What's strange about that. If you are saving your lp collection, you wouldn't through your player away and then complain that cd players won't play your albums and wait for Sony to come out with a retro dvd-lp player would you? Heck, as stated earlier, you can still purchase NEW turntables, an allegedly "extinct" format.

Now ask yourself the same then about data on your hard drive. How comfortable would you be if the hard drive industry could just forcefully deprecate all current hard drives and force all new hard drives to carry "officially stamped" data, rendering your data useless?

No problem, I'll just make sure that any data that I have archived that I wish to read in the future, that I keep working versions of the mechanisms to read them.

Once again, I think the key point here is sheer market penetration and quantities of players/readers available. Unless you're talking marginal technologies (no not Beta, we're talking really marginal like the old RCA video disk format), how long will it take for 40 million (or whatever the number is) vcr's to disappear?

Can you think of any popular recording format in the last 20 years or so (audio/video/computer) that is painfully difficult (and/or expensive) to retrieve content from. And by popular, I mean in quantities of units shipped.

Re:Forcing the market change

[Anonymous Coward]

You're like one of those jews who helped the nazis shovel coal into the furnaces. You fucking piece of shit. You help the machine destroy our civil rights and then you say it's in our best interest. Wait until the nazis/RIAA/MPAA comes for your HDTV next and says you can't watch movies YOU RIGHTFULLY PURCHASED anymore because they've decided to switch to a new format and you'll need to update your licensing with a new fee. You are a fucking collaborater. That's what you are. PIECE OF SHIT.

Re:Forcing the market change

[foobar104]

I refuse to support people who object to the studios today because I believe they're objecting inappropriately. People like Hard_Code (the original poster) object to any sort of copy protection or prevention, on principle. They invoke "fair use" to say that it's wrong to prevent copying completely. Like I said, I think that's going too far.

Of course I would object if somebody tried to tell me I could only watch videos on Tuesdays. But that's not what's happening. I'm afraid I don't buy your "slippery slope" argument.

Life is all about compromise. In order to get what I want-- prerecorded movies in high definition-- I'm more than happy to give up an ability that I would never want to use anyway-- the ability to copy or digitize those movies. If I were asked to give up something that I value more, then I'd make a different choice.

Use your imagination and come up with something that you would object to. The problem is, it will be much more difficult to stand up to them then than it is now.

Nonsense. It'll be just as easy not to buy a "only on Tuesday" video in ten years as it is to not buy a DVD today. It's just a consumer's choice, not a revolution.

Re:Forcing the market change

[foobar104]

Wow, I bet it feels nice to have so much money that you can subsidize the media industry's foray into HDTV.

Yeah. It does.

Some people don't only want to be mindless consumers.

Um. When did this go from a discussion of the pros and cons of copy protection to an empty critique of my values?

I like watching movies and TV. This does not make me a mindless consumer. I get such a kick out of people who vaguely criticise the various media outlets using loaded words like "culture" and "consumer." Inevitably, I've found that if one digs deep enough, one finds that even those people have a guilty pleasure or two lurking behind their oh-so-proper facades. I'll bet you spend your Saturday nights watching reruns of British sitcoms on public television, or privately enacting some other vice for which you feel indefinitely ashamed.

In other words, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Give it up, Hard_Code. As much as you might like to think you are, you're no better or worse than the rest of us. The fact that you don't like TV doesn't mean I'm a bad person because I do.

Re:Forcing the market change

[foobar104]

If I were a big-shot executive for a Hollywood distributor, I wouldn't be worried about peer-to-peer, or the next Napster, except in the abstract "hope that never happens" sense. I'd be worried about the rampant copying of videotapes and DVDs going on in the far East. With videos it's absolutely nuts. You can walk up to a street vendor in KL and buy a video for US$3. It looks utterly legitimate, including the box cover and tape label. Pop it in, and the video quality is just what you'd expect from a store-bought video. Excepting the circumstances, there's no reason for you to think it'd been pirated.

The DVD situation is almost as bad. Peer-to-peer piracy is trivia compared to the kind of mass-produced bootlegging going on in Asia.

Hollywood has been burned three times now: VHS, VCD, DVD. It's pretty clear that they won't adopt another, more sophisticated format without some pretty strong copy protection features.

Re:Forcing the market change

[xtremex]

Vinyl always sounded better than cassettes, I don't know why. Having the original Kiss Records on vinyl is something to behold :) How much do you think Love Gun in the original PLASTIC wrapper(with the label "only $8.99!") is worth?

Re:Forcing the market change

[xtremex]

I just bought a combo DVD/MP3/VCD player at Circuit Shitty for $69! By Apex. Pretty good system

Re:Forcing the market change

[bilbobuggins]

Note to the unwise - vinyl sales are on the up, they have been for 5 years. At least 50% of the major single releases each week are available on vinyl. 100% of dance oriented ones are. The vast majority of dance music (the biggest selling sector in europe) is ONLY available on vinyl.

This is only because dance and hip-hop DJ's through finding a new use for the medium have created a renewed interest in a previously obsolete format. It's a simple case of the market reacting to consumer demand.

If you really want to see a dead format, try 8-track, nobodies been able to find a decent use for it in the modern age so 8-track == dead.

Re:Forcing the market change

[radish]

OK, I only know a few (I spend plenty of time in the US, but only visit a few cities), but to save you asking:

--> Tower Records in Las Vegas has a couple of racks of Vinyl over the far left corner as you go in, past the anime DVDs. Small selection, but I found a couple of total gems there (e.g. pristine copy of the DJ edition of Hybrid's album)

--> Virgin Megastore, Times Square, NYC - Big ol' vinyl selection on the main floor, at the back.

--> Virgin Megastore, Union Square, NYC - Couple of walls full, and maybe 20 feet of 3 tier shelving, over to the back right as you enter.

--> Tower Records, San Francisco (somewhere over near Fisherman's Wharf) - huge vinyl department, easily 30% of floor space. Mainly Jazz, so not my thing, but they sure sell the black stuff :-)

Now of course I'm not talking your Best Buys, or Circuit Citys, or (heaven forbid) Walmart, but it's out there, in the major chains, even in the US. They wouldn't sell it if there wasn't demand.

Note - I'm not claiming vinyl sounds better than CD, that's purely subjective (although I do have a fondness for the sound). I use vinyl for mixing, and its other qualities make it unmatched for that purpose. Of course CDs outsell vinyl by miles, and they're far more suitable for every day use, but to say vinyl is "obselete" is plainly not accurate. Many of my good friends owe their (very healthy!) livings to the fact that it isn't!

Back to the decks :-)

Re:Forcing the market change

[GrenDel Fuego]

VHS tapes as well have this sort of niche that DVDs can't replace: recording shows off the air. Tivo is in many ways a superior alternative (though not in all ways, as it doesn't allow friends to share tapes), so it will probably continue to take market share away from VCRs.

Barring a completely new and unknown format coming up, I'd guess that in 5 years or so when DVD recorders and blanks drop in price we'll start seeing TiVos and other DVR's including built in dvd recorders.

When you want to keep a show, you'll have the ability to burn it to disc.

Hell, most DVD players include the ability to play VCDs. a 640 meg blank cd is probably enough to burn a half hour tv show episode. You can get a CDR drive for $80 or less these days. Wouldn't be too hard for them to bundle one, or support external USB burners.

Re:Forcing the market change

[El Camino SS]

Hollywood has been burned three times now: VHS, VCD, DVD. It's pretty clear that they won't adopt another, more sophisticated format without some pretty strong copy protection features.

Wow. An entire industry has been arriving in the last twenty years that makes them happy by selling first run movies weeks after release to rental shops for up to $120 US for huge profits and you say they get burned?

Funny, I wouldn't say even blockbuster would be saying that the movie industry is getting burned by them, quite the other way around.

After all, we're talking about movies here for chrissakes. You know, images on a screen? I love to watch them, but honestly, its getting a little ridiculous with the prices and schemes.

Screwed by DVD? You honestly haven't noticed that most people cannot record DVDs yet, have you?
Matter of fact, studios encourage DVD. So what are you talking about?

You might also notice that the people that make no real important product, and make fantastic money at it insulate themselves with lawyers.

Here's some examples: Porn. Cigarettes. Television and movies. Drug dealers. Some Software.

They are going to use lawyers and FUD. They love them. Get used to it.

Re:Forcing the market change

[mpe]

The important detail is that the popularity of vinyl is easily explained in the context of dance music. This suggests that until a superior technology comes along to replace what vinyl provides (and neither cassette tapes or CDs fit this) vinyl records will continue to be sold.

Rather it's the case that when it comes to DJing vinyl is the "superior technology". Dispite attempts to make CD players which attempt to emulate turntables.

VHS tapes as well have this sort of niche that DVDs can't replace: recording shows off the air.

Or recording from security cameras.

Tivo is in many ways a superior alternative (though not in all ways, as it doesn't allow friends to share tapes), so it will probably continue to take market share away from VCRs.

You could make such a device with removable media, it's just that such machines are in their infancy and the likes of the MPAA are trying to kill them off.

Cost is also an issue with Tivos, something which is not the case with movies on VHS.

20 years ago VHS tapes cost about 10 times what they do now. If hard disks were as commonplace as VHS they would be a lot cheaper too. It's a matter of economy of scale.

There is no technical reason that DVD movies have to be more expensive that VHS movies.

The reason is that they are priced around what people will pay, since DVD (like CD) is being pushed as a "better" product it has a higher price. Thus even more profits, since they are cheaper to produce and distribute than VHS they would still make more profit if they were priced a bit less...

Because of the service component of Tivo, it's unlikely that Tivo could become less expensive than VCRs. Those digital TV recorders that do not depend on a central service have a better chance of eliminating VCRs, though the marketing reality may mean that they take a while to succesfully compete with Tivo.

In terms of hardware having less moving parts could easily make a Tivo type device cheaper than a VCR, at least in volume. The problem with the service is that it's a standalone service. With the Tivo people having to provide all the dialup infrastructure, which means that it costs more than if they were simply selling access to the data over the Internet.

Re:Forcing the market change

[mpe]

Just remember that it's not legal for you to download and use any content that isn't part of the original VHS tape you bought, like deleted scenes, director commentary, or anything else added only to the digital format; those are all covered by separate copyright.

But try getting hold of just this material. If you already had a VHS copy you've paid twice for the movie. Also quite a lot of this material is very cheap for the publisher to add.

Re:Forcing the market change

[Mignon]

How much do you think Love Gun in the original PLASTIC wrapper(with the label "only $8.99!") is worth?

Why don't you check for yourself?

Re:Forcing the market change

[Artifex]

But try getting hold of just this material. If you already had a VHS copy you've paid twice for the movie. Also quite a lot of this material is very cheap for the publisher to add.

The fact that it's cheap for the publisher doesn't diminish their right to claim compensation for it. The people who work in diamond mines make a pittance, but I dare you to go to a De Beers warehouse, scoop up a handful of uncut gems, and attempt to walk out with them, using that as a reason.

Your moral recourse is to sell or give away your old copy (if you don't want two copies) and buy the new copy, or do without the new material. Anything else is stealing.

8mm?

[sphealey]

I doubt Circuit City ever sold any flavour of Beta.

CMIIW, but aren't 8mm vidoecams Beta? If so, Circuit City has certainly sold a bunch of those...

sPh

Re:8mm?

[checkyoulater]

but aren't 8mm vidoecams Beta?

No. 8mm videocams use 8mm or Super8 or Hi8 (I think they are all the same?)

I forget the size of the tape in the Beta format. I don't think beta cameras were ever really marketed to the end user. They are mostly used in video production, indie films and the like. The going rate for a betacam camera (not to be confused with betamax) in Canada is currently around $20,000, and probably used at that. Definately not something being sold at Circuit City.

Re:8mm?

[ncc74656]

but aren't 8mm vidoecams Beta?

No. 8mm videocams use 8mm or Super8 or Hi8

Super8 is film. Hi8 is tape.

The Analog Hole

[Comrade Brightski]

Ahh, looks like the MPAA has found a novel new way to plug the "analog hole"-- just get rid of the analog devices! What a relief. Now I can rest assured that the industry will be making the money they deserve, selling those copy-proof DVDs.

All your VCR are belong to us!

VHS is a dinosaur!

[uncoveror]

Lousy picture quality, and they will wear out. Good riddence to VHS, your grandpa's way to collect movies. I guess they are an appropriate format for the Jurassic Park flicks, though.

Re:WTF

[TweeKinDaBahx]

Buy yourself a replaytv and you won't even have to fast-forward through commercials. Now if i could only get the fucking think to work with my satellite reciever...

Oh well, has to happen at some point...

[st0rmshad0w]

I don't see what the big deal is. Tho what I do find interesting is walking into a local music store named "Record & Tape Traders" and finding no records or tapes. Blah.

Yes VHS is on its way out. The worst problem with this is the eventual loss of films that will never be released on DVD.

Re:Oh well, has to happen at some point...

[ari{Dal}]

Yes VHS is on its way out. The worst problem with this is the eventual loss of films that will never be released on DVD.

You hit that one dead-on. I have a number of old videotapes that i love kicking around that will never make it. There isn't exactly a huge market in 80's teen chick flicks in the DVD genre *grins*.

I love the dvd releases for Harry Potter, Star Trek TNG, and just about any anime for the choices and menus (cant wait to grab Neon Genesis on DVD), but most of my old favourites just weren't popular enough or are too 'passé' to be released on DVD now. While geek favourites are almost guaranteed to make the transition, movies like "Heathers" and "The Breakfast Club" probably never will.

Showing my 80's girl upbringing bigtime here.

Re:Oh well, has to happen at some point...

[filth grinder]

go to a place like Suncoast, or heck even Best Buy, and take a look through their DVD sections. You'd be amazed at what they are releasing out on DVD. I'm in the process of buying tons of bad 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's horror flicks. Like Corpse Grinders, 7 Doors of Death, Zombie, and other cools stuff. Heathers and the Breakfast Club are already out on DVD, those are actually pretty popular cult films. You'd actually be surprised what makes it onto DVD.

Re:Oh well, has to happen at some point...

[david duncan scott]

I was wondering the same thing. I remember renting LP's and buying blank tapes (and rolling papers) from the original RTT on York Road.

The one in Towson still has vinyl, although the one by JHU may not. I've never been to the Glen Burnie store.

If you are by the Hop, try Normal's.

Re:Oh well, has to happen at some point...

[subsolar2]

As of yet you can't get the "Back to the Future" series on DVD ... a popular movie. You can't even buy the orginal on VHS anyplace (even online) so I ended up digging it up at a used book & record store (Half Price Books).

Re:Oh well, has to happen at some point...

[subsolar2]

Two others I'm waiting to come out on DVD are "Soylent Green" and "Omega Man". The only thing I can figure with the "Back to the Future" not being released is there is some odd contract issue involved. As far as the other two I have no clue other than the fact that they may not have been that popular.

DivX anyone?

[drawlins]

I agree that VHS is out, but I would not be one to follow Circuit City in a technology trend after their all-out effort to embrace DivX. I pity anyone stuck with one. :-(

Um, thats not now it works...

[tgd]

Who cares what the percentage of homes with DVD players is? The fact that you do is why they are making these decisions at a giant nation-wide chain, and you are reading Slashdot...

Think about it -- the *only* figure that matters is what percentage of people who routinely buy movies have DVD players. The number of people with VCRs doesn't matter any more than the number of people who like SpongeBob SquarePants matters in a decision like this one.

Its also a very different issue from one of, say, Blockbuster dropping VHS -- they won't, because I'd guess its a safe bet that the percentage of people who rent videos who don't have DVD players is a lot higher than the percentage of people who buy movies who don't have DVD players.

Linux DVDs

[Anonymous Coward]

Never successfully gotten any Linux DVD player to work. I have, however, watched many DVDs using Windows XP. If it's that hard to set up in Linux, framerate statistics are worthless.

Re:Linux DVDs

[xtremex]

Since I don't have a DVD player on my computer (I don't watch movies on my computer, I havea 51" flat screen for that!), a friend recently took the Linux plunge. He was running Mandrake 8.2, so I set up Ogle for him (The included XPlayer wasn't what he was looking for). I never set up a dvd player on Linux before.It worked perfectly and I set it up in abot 15 minutes. Ogle has DVD menus, which is the feature he wanted.

Phasing Out of Pre-Recorded VHS Tapes

[LittleGuy]

Go to IMdB to check out the formats for latest releases. The usual drill is that VHS tapes are released to rent, but DVDs are available to own. That alone may be impetus to get the DVD version, but add in clarity, physical space, bonus scenes and features, and a good comparative price, andpeople will choose DVD over VHS if given the opportunity.

VHS is making its way to the 8-track and reel-to-reel dustbin of obsolesence.

And they're replacing it with what?

[Aexia]

Sure, VHS will have to go eventually. and I won't exactly mourn the crap quality. But what's coming down the line?

What's the standard affordable alternative to replace the easy recording ability of VHS?

Before anyone says it, Tivo(and other services like it) ain't it. I can't share it with anyone else over my always-down DSL connection. No one can just hand me a disk of the Angel episode I missed last week or something.

I'm trying to think of a technology that could replace it... maybe a box that could burn VCDs on the fly? The technology's probably at the point that you could do that affordably.

The advantage of this is that people are already used to burning CDs, it's a widely available media, and you probably wouldn't need industry support to make the player. That means you wouldn't need to include DRM or other crap.

Re:And they're replacing it with what?

[stubear]

"No one can just hand me a disk of the Angel episode I missed last week or something."

Correcty me if I'm wrong but isn't that the purpose of Tivo devices? You're supposed to record the show on the Tivo device and watch it at your leisure.

Personally I would like to be able to have the service be unattached to the cable company and choose which DVR I want to use. Cable companies woudl provide their schedules in XML or some other similar foramt and let the DVRs decode the data on their own within the constraints of their own UI.

Re:And they're replacing it with what?

[ivan256]

No one can just hand me a disk of the Angel episode I missed last week or something.

If you had a TiVo, you wouldn't have missed it. (Unless you're like me, and you hate that show).

Besides, the owners of the the content don't want you doing that.

Re:And they're replacing it with what?

[uigrad_2000]

No one can just hand me a disk of the Angel episode I missed last week or something.

If you had a TiVo, you wouldn't have missed it.

I unintentionally miss programs all the time, even when my PVR is setup correctly!
That darn stuff outside called "weather" keeps on messing up my satellite signal.

Re:And they're replacing it with what?

[edwdig]

The owners of the content don't want you recording it with a TiVo either. As far as they're concerned TiVo users are thieves because either 1) you're skipping the commercials which violates your "license agreement" to watch the show or 2) you're recording it digitally so that you can spread it to everyone.

No problem

[ocie]

If there are is really a lot of demand for titles on VHS, people will just go to another store. Conversely, if ther ewere a lot more demand, CC wouldn't be discontinuing the format.

Sweet! /. bug!

[tgd]

That was a reply to a different post...

No replacement!

[TheSHAD0W]

Yup, real soon we won't be able to tape shows off the TV.

Yes, one could get a Tivo or the like to do one's "time-shifting", but the MPAA and other associations are already attacking the systems, and the ability to share recordings with friends is limited and may get cut off altogether.

This is a good sign that the concept of intellectual property is reaching dangerous new highs, and should be reined in.

Re:No replacement!

[mrmag00]

woah there, they aren't getting rid of them first off and second they are getting rid of movie releases. you can still buy a vcr and record tv shows, and you still will be able to 10 years from now. (just like I can still use a casette player to record audio, but buy new music in CD form. Also can buy it on tape, but it'll be harder to find.)

just because they are favoring a newer, higher quality, digital format over aging VHS in MOVIE RELEASES doesn't mean the worlds over.

Re:This isn't such great news...

[Marx_Mrvelous]

Erm...
"Competition goes down due to decreased demand."?
I hope you've never taken a course in economics. Decreased demand only means one thing: Lower prices. Competition might go up or down, depending on the business model and market. Right now, for instance, competition is *incredibly* fierce in the PC market precisely because demand is so low.

Your point is also invalid. 8-track tapes are a 20 year-old, obsolete technology. How many people own an 8-track player?

My point is simple: Without competing technologies, prices go up. It's a simple economic principal.

They always make the best decisions!

[SaturnTim]

Yea, remember all the money they poured into the divx (not the compression, they expiring dvd's) format? I hardly consider them an industry barometer. In their effort to be ahead of the curve, they can make some bad decisions.

--T

Walmart sells them, who's Circuit City?

[pdqlamb]

Back when I bought my first VCR, Circuit City was the low-cost vendor for the things; you could buy on for $300-400 from CC, or go to an electronics boutique and spend $1,000 or more.

That's changed, obviously. Walmart sells them for under $100. That's probably what has driven CC out of the business. As long as you can buy a VCR at one of these discounters, or even a grocery store or pharmacy, it just doesn't make any difference. Now when they start carrying DVD, or dropping VCRs, watch out!

What about recordable media?

[ari{Dal}]

While I use and love my DVD player all the time (ST:TNG DVD collection is getting quite a workout), I still love my old VCR. Why? It was a convenient, all in one package. I could buy used VHS tapes for under $10 each at the local blockbuster, or pop in a blank cassette to record whatever program I wanted. No need for two seperate disc racks, and one less box to fiddle with in the entertainment centre.

Agreed, the quality isn't there. The picture and sound are completely inferior to DVD, and any new movies I buy will most likely be in DVD format. But until they can give me an affordable, recordable dvd player, VHS is a viable option for those who don't want to spend that much money on movies.

Add to that the number of videotapes i've purchased and recorded over the years, and the cost of replacing them all with DVDs, and I'll probably hang on to the old VCR for quite some time.

Having said all that, I am definately looking forward to a time when true HDTV, DVD-Rs, and PVRs are commonplace, and I can say goodbye to analog and poor signal quality forever. Of course, they still haven't figured out how to keep the sat dish from fizzling during thunder/snowstorms.

Re:Good thing, too

[cwebster]

call your cable company ask for one of the cable decoder boxes. Ive got a Scentific-Atlanta Explorer 2000 cable box. It has cable in and out (cable out just sends the current tuned channel out on channel 3). Its got composite and S-video out, stereo and coax digital audio out. The box itself supports the features you want (fav channels, last channel) and has an on screen guide (tv listings) if you have digital cable. I dont think i'm paying for the one i have now, but if i wanted another Time Warner quoted me ~ $3/month to rent one.

Re:This isn't such great news...

[Marx_Mrvelous]

You do have a valid point; if mor than one company could distribute a movie, prices would certainly be much lower. But your argument says that DVDs are cheaper to produce, but VHS costs 1/2 to 1/3 the price of a DVD movie. Why?

Because consumer preference and performance, mostly.

Anyways, keep in mind that a company can and does compete with itself; a consumer doesn't know that it's the same company making a DVd and a VHS, they simple choose one or the other, and price is a major factor. If a DVD were to cost say, $200 and the VHS only $10, clearly DVd sales would plummet.

That is an extreme example to make a point; VHS and DVDs do actually compete with each other. Competition lowers prices.

This is why they want to drop the VHS format, to raise prices (and profit)

Makes Sense

[medcalf]

Every entertainment medium is going digital, some (broadcast TV, broadcast radio, movies at the theater) more slowly than others (music, cable/satellite TV, Internet radio, movies for home use). Eventually, there will be a box available which has a radio tuner and a digital cable (or satellite) TV tuner, PVR functionality, music recording to the same internal hard drive as the movies, and a CD-R/DVD-R drive for dumping out content in a portable fashion. Heck, with the iMac, you are 75% of the way there on hardware (need the tuners) and the software wouldn't be difficult to put together.

Anyway, my point was that with entertainment going digital, all of the analog formats will be relegated to the back shelves, if they continue to exist at all. I suspect that this will be a falling-off-the-shelf phenomenon, like how vinyl disappeared in the US in a year or two after a critical mass of the public had a CD player; rather than a gradual slipping away of the format.

About the only thing that can hold this change back is legislation or excessive lawsuits. Seems that ??AA were ahead of the curve on the reasoning, since they are focusing on both lawsuits and legislation in their attempt to gain and maintain control of the audience.

Well, I won't change

[w.p.richardson]

Until there is something available that I can record anything on broadcast TV for a handful of pennies. I doubt I am alone among the mass market.

What, exactly, constitutes "everyone you talk to nowadays"? The other folks in your cube farm? Doesn't sound like a representative sample to me. (Not a flame, just an observation).

Re:Well, I won't change

[david duncan scott]

Sir John Harrington

CC knows what market they want.

[peterdaly]

Half the article was "Is this a good decision? We don't know..." said in a couple different ways. Regardless of what you think of DVD's and Circuit City in general, here is my take:

Circuit City is a progressive business, who pushes the status quoe (sp?). This is evident by their experiment with DivX, and getting rid of appliances, as stated they did in the article. Circuit City is after a certain type of market. By now, most people who buy electronics on a regular basis own a DVD player. I figure Circuit City makes their highest profit per visit off of customers who already own DVD players. If they don't own a DVD play, and stop shopping at CC due to this change, it was not one of their high value customers to begin with.

DVD's are "moving" much faster than VHS these days. Not only are people buying new releases, but also replacing their old VHS tapes. This means it is to CC's best advantage to fit the broadest DVD collection possible into the store. People will go to CC since they are likley to have the DVDs they want. If a non-DVD player owner is on the brink of getting a DVD player, this may be the kick in the pants they need (cha-ching on new players!)...if it isn't, the customer will probably be on the low end of their "value" scale anyway.

My guess is Circuit City want to be the one stop shop for the progressive electronics buyer, who isn't interested in VHS, or appliances anyway. If that is the case, which I could be wrong about, CC knows what they are doing and this is probably a good business decision.

-Pete

Whats wrong with VHS?

[Capt_Troy]

Don't get me wrong, I have a DVD player and rent them almost exclusivly, but I don't think VHS is dead just yet. I use my 2 VCRs very often to record TV shows so I can watch them at my leisure. You can do it with Tivo, but then I can't lend the tape out, or watch the show elsewhere. Plus a VCR is more economical for me since I have 1000 blank tapes sitting around.

CC is just cutting the VCRs because they are cheap and they don't make a lot of money off them, Walmart and Best Buy will have them for 10 more years.

Re:Whats wrong with VHS?

[Capt_Troy]

more like 30 or so. I was using 1000 as an exageration to imply that I have a lot of tapes.

Hmmm

[Wrexen]

I think this is a good sign that it's time to throw out my 8-track player

Phasing out a media without alternative

[techstar25]

Its scary to think that VHS might be phased out before a cheap/easy alternative way to record tv shows is available. You can't record the Sopranos for your no-cable tv cheapskate parents without VHS. I assume that eventually TV DVD players will also record but even that will probably be a write-once format, so it will mean no more using the same tape to record Friends every week. You'll need a new disc every time. Anyway I think that is why they will be selling VCRs for along time. Plus, everybody's wedding is on VHS.

Don't panic

[Stavr0]

They are phasing out sales of pre-recorded VHS Movies. They are not discontinuing sales of VHS decks or blank media (yet).

Instead of VHS, CC will be carrying DIVX Movies exclusively. ;-P

Story Moderation: -1 Inaccurate Title

Blockbuster's been doing the same, for a long time

[mjhans]

Really, this should come as no surprise. As previous posts pointed out, this has to do with *videos*, not the players themselves (yet).

The Blockbusters in my town (Madison, WI) are all going DVD, reorging their displays to relegate VHS to one corner (or in some stores, do some interleaving). And they've been doing this for the past 6-8 months.

And having grown up in Boston, everybody knows the midwest is slower to pick up on national trends. :) So if VHS is disappearing here, you know it's already gone on the coasts....

Though I doubt VCR sales will ever die until somebody comes out with a good (i.e. Joe Sixpack) way of TiVo'ing out to CDR.

- Matt

Re:Thank Jebus...

[colmore]

there is still new music that can only be found on vinyl. and a great many things that have never been reissued.

Re:Thank Jebus...

[tenman]

sweet, that was a funky little ditty groove that you had going on there...

you should have added a little rurr-ruurrr-shhhh-shwaaaa-ruuur-ruuuuuur-"an..."-s wash-"and..."-ruuur-swash-"and it goes a little something like this"....

didn't you read the article?!?!

[SpiceWare]

I wonder if they'll continue to sell VCRs?

The following line occured in a paragraph all by itself, thus making it very noticable:

Circuit City will continue to carry blank VHS tape and VCRs, he added.

Re:didn't you read the article?!?!

[treat]

DVDs crack when they're dropped in the night-drop slot and scratch easily.

Since they purchased a license to the content, and not the physical media, shouldn't it be easy to get a replacement?

Re:WTF

[athakur999]

I think you missed this bit:

Circuit City will continue to carry blank VHS tape and VCRs, he added.

There only appear to be getting rid of pre-recorded ones, and I say more power to them.

trinkets

[Sabalon]

My neighboor (who is 26 or so) bought the Harry Potter DVD because it came with some medallion or something like that. This then forced her to buy a DVD player so she could watch it.

So...if Circuit City just includes some toy from a serial box or whatever, they could make a killing in DVD and player sells :)

Re:trinkets

[Dimensio]

You aren't far off. My first DVD purchases were made before I had a DVD player.

In my case I had been planning to build a PC with a DVD-ROM drive (and decoder card for future expansion), and as incentive to hurry up and gather the funds I purchased Contact, as I rather liked the movie and it was not available on VHS (except as a rental -- and then not in widescreen). I later purchased The Devil's Advocate when I heard that the first-run discs were recalled due to a copyright lawsuit.

That's odd...

[SuperguyA1]

Given the circuit city in my neighborhood the article could read. 'Neighborhood phases out circuit city'.

RIAA

[javilon]

It looks like VHS is indeed dead. That means that DVD will go huge in the next couple of years, and this also means that the RIAA won't stand a chance to introduce a new video format with working copyright protection.

And the number of broadband users keeps growing ...

Oh well!

Re:80's flicks on DVD...

[ari{Dal}]

Good point. I'm checking out some listings now... I don't order DVDs online much, but I should start... Found a copy of "The Dark Crystal" at Columbia House DVD which is just a thrill... and hey, if Barb Wire (one of their top selections!) can make it as a DVD, nothing will surprise me. Now I just have to find a copy of Labyrinth...

DVD's are more expensive than VHS

[neoshmengi]

I think one of the major reasons to make the change is that there are bigger profits to be made selling DVD's. Audio CD's cost pennies to produce, yet they still sell for 10-20 bucks in the stores. DVD's will be the same way. DVD media will continue to go down and down in price but they will still be super expensive in the stores. VHS tapes already sell at low prices, so they have less of a profit margin with these.

So much better

[hndrcks]

"They have no incentive to screw you."

Ah yes, that would account for people being arrested for trying to buy sale items at the advertised price. Give me the commission-based salespeople anytime.

Funny...

[phatStrat]

Although the company doesn't break out its sales of DVD, Circuit City officials said the entertainment software category--which includes music, movies and videogames--accounted for 11% of the chain's first-quarter revenue of $3.05 billion. Total revenue was up 14% in the first quarter compared to the 2001 period.

"So your honor, you can plainly see from these numbers that peer-to-peer filesharing is good. I mean bad. Shoot." - RIAA Lawyer

Re:They want to sel more DVD PLAYERS

[gmhowell]

Actually, tapes are less resilient than DVDs in my experience. Why? Tape stretch. Lots of people poo-poo this, and I did also. It took quite a bit of watching to render it unusable. But there is a minor bit of information that degrades after 5-6 showings: the captioning. I finally stopped renting tapes for my wife unless I got them on release day. The tape stretch, heat/cold cycles, or cosmic rays disrupted the captioning while the picture and sound were fine.

Now if only Universal Studios would caption their fucking movies properly.

Who can blame them?

[Geek In Training]

With reasonable quality DVD players going for $69, who can blame them?

The one listed above is the newer model of the one I own, and the same model my friend bought. Apex is not a huge brand here yet, but these are nice little units and play VCDs and MP3 CDs as well; a nice selling point for geeks.

Oxymoron

[dmaxwell]

"Working copyright protection" is an oxymoron. It's like "sex for virginity". It doesn't mean anything. The CBPTBA is akin to legislating the value of PI to 3 even. The DMCA is like mandating that the earth is in fact flat. I'm not even sure the much ballyhooed head-implant is invincible.

Uses

[Kallahar]

What do you use your VCR for? I use mine to time-shift TV shows. I cannot do that with a DVD player. Phasing out pre-recorded VHS tapes I can understand, DVD is far better in that case, but the VCR will have plenty of market behind it as long as it is the only affordable way to record shows.

Travis

But they don't want *recording*...

[fmaxwell]

Anyway, since VHS is still the primary *recording* medium of the consumer, I wonder if they'll continue to sell VCRs?

This is an example of how "electronics super stores" are bad for the consumer. Circuit City wants to make money selling not only electronics, but also pre-recorded entertainment. They don't want you to be able to record a pay-per-view showing of a movie because that could cost them a sale. The sooner they can convince you to scrap your VCR and, if you don't have one, buy a DVD player (from them), the happier they will be.

That's why it was better when "record stores" sold recordings and "stereo stores" sold audio and video equipment. And this is why it was better for Sony to make consumer electronics and Columbia pictures to make films. The conflict of interest is now such that Sony would happily kill off the CD and replace it with a copy-protected equivalent -- much as they are doing to push DVD as a replacement for VHS. They want VCRs to go away so that they can sell you not only the player, but also the movie when you switch to DVD.

Re:But they don't want *recording*...

[RedWizzard]

Circuit City wants to make money selling not only electronics, but also pre-recorded entertainment. They don't want you to be able to record a pay-per-view showing of a movie because that could cost them a sale.

Nice theory. But how do make it fit the facts, i.e. that CC are phasing out the pre-recorded VHS sales, but continuing to sell both the recorders and the blank tapes?

What's actually going on here is that CC wants to sell you a VCR and a DVD player. If you can't use a VCR to do both jobs than you're more likely to buy a DVD.

Re:But they don't want *recording*...

[fmaxwell]

Nice theory. But how do make it fit the facts, i.e. that CC are phasing out the pre-recorded VHS sales, but continuing to sell both the recorders and the blank tapes?

How do you know for a "fact" that CC is not going to phase out VHS VCRs? No pre-recorded tapes will reduce the demand for VHS decks. The inability to record from DVDs (due to Macrovsion) will turn some other people off of buying a VCR. Time-shifting with PVRs like TiVo will answer the needs of other consumers. Pretty soon the demand dries up, and Circuit City stops selling them. Seen any beta machines at Circuit City? How about 8-track tape decks? Elcassette? DCC (Digital Compact Cassette)?

What's actually going on here is that CC wants to sell you a VCR and a DVD player. If you can't use a VCR to do both jobs than you're more likely to buy a DVD.

I don't buy it. VCRs are low-profit, high return rate items that take a lot of shelf space. The tapes are bulky and inexpensive. That's hardly appealing to a retailer.

Re:But they don't want *recording*...

[EpsCylonB]

It's called "Vertical Integration", this is a similar situation to the hollywood studio system. In the 20's, 30's and 40's the studios that made films also owned their own chain of cinema's and would only show their films in them (they controlled production, distribution and exhibition). So if you wanted to see a MGM film you had to go to an MGM cinema, this made it very difficult for independent films to get to audiences. This was all ended in the late 40's (1948 I think) when paramount were accused of having a monopoly position, this led to the paramount decrees which meant that studios were prevented from doing the distribution and exhibition side of things.

Sony is an example of a Vertically Integrated company on a grand scale. Sony is a music publisher, a computer game company, sony also own several labels and columbia pictures to name but a few of their creative assets.

Sony also makes the TV's, VCR's and DVD players (playstation 2) that a lot of people use to watch films. They also make the stereo's, hi fi's that people use to listen to music, they even make most of the equipment that is used to record music (and I think the digital camera's that were used to shoot episode 2 were made by sony as well).

This total dominance of technology is the main reason why sony amongst all the other record companies hate mp3 so much. It's a distribution method that they don't own or control. Also they see mp3 as being in competition with MiniDisc which they have been pushing for the last 6 or 7 years.

So will there be an equilvalent to the paramount decrees in regards to sony ?. I doubt it as sony is a multinational corporation which no single government (yes not even the US) has the power to control. Maybe we should boycott their products after all there are compettitors, but no one else makes those cool electronic dogs do they ?.

Article title misleading....

[nedron]

The title for this article is patently misleading, as CC is phasing out the sale of pre-recorded video tapes, not the VHS format in general. They will continue to carry blank media and decks.

It makes sense to phase out the pre-recorded VHS items since the primary pre-recorded rental/sale market is obviously tilting to DVD.

It would make no sense to phase out VHS hardware or blank tapes since those are still (and will be for the foreseeable future) the primary means of recording material in the consumer space.

In fact, CC has started carrying blank D-VHS tape. I don't know that they carry the decks yet, but there's always Best Buy for that.

Failure of Democracy

[pjrc]

No thanks, I'd rather *legally* digitize my copy-unrestricted VHS tapes and burn them onto [media format of the day]

That would be your macrovision-free tapes of wedding, baby's first steps, etc. Certainly if you purchased commercial pre-recorded VHS media with movies on them, they include the macrovision copy protection signals.

I agree that it within your fair-use rights (in my non-lawyer opinion) to transfer the content from your old VHS tapes to new DVD discs... but if you believe your VHS tapes are without copy protection, well, you're in for a suprise.

I hate to break it to you...

[Convergence]

But, any such control scheme, unless it gets embedded into every digital device sold (SSSCA) to plug the so-called 'analog hole' (which in this case should be called the plaintext digital hole), it *will* be breakable... Once the movie is plaintext, its all over. Thus, by the statement you gave, they'll never release 1080i movies, EVER, unless the SSSCA becomes law.

And even after such draconian *CONTROL* measures are embedded into every digital device sold.. Will they still sell 1080i, or will they just sell VCR-quality video at twice the price, and with arbitrary controls of their choosing.

For example, look at Adobe ebooks... ``This book cannot be read aloud'' WHAT THE FUCK? Or at CSS on DVD's, WHAT THE FUCK does region encoding have to do with copyright protection.. Thats the problem, it has nothing to do with 'protection'. Its just trying to grab control over each digital device.

You may feel that 1984 is worth it, if you can get your 1080i movies... But not everyone feels the same.

Re:I hate to break it to you...

[foobar104]

Thus, by the statement you gave, they'll never release 1080i movies, EVER, unless the SSSCA becomes law.

You are underinformed. You can buy a few movies on high-definition D-VHS right now. Terminator 2 costs about US$22 at bestprices.com, but it's out of stock.

This is my point. JVC put together a copy protection scheme for D-VHS called D-Theater. They presented it to some movie distributors, and those distributors agreed to release their films in 1080i on the D-VHS format. (Support for D-Theater has not been universal, of course.)

Before D-Theater, there were no pre-recorded high-definition movies. They just didn't exist. Not because of technology-- squeezing 40 GB onto a data tape isn't hard at all. Because of business choices on the part of the distributors.

When a bad format-- or a good format with bad features or side-effects-- comes along, it fails. DiVX failed because people weren't buying the players or the discs. Region coding for DVDs seems to be failing; a good friend of mine lives in Australia, and he says that practically every major vendor sells region-free DVD players there, which makes the whole region-coding system somewhat meaningless.

But the simple fact that a system includes copy protection is not, in my not-very-humble opinion, a good reason for that system to fail. I disagree with your assertion that copy protection is an insidious plot. It's not like we're talking about chlorine in the water, here.

Re:I hate to break it to you...

[foobar104]

I hope none of your D-VHS movies ever gets dropped on a magnet or into a bucket of water or some other type of disaster.

Yeah, that'd be bad all right. But I have a sophisticated system for preventing such events. I call it "being careful."

Since you weren't allowed to make a backup...

This is a simple either-or proposition. Either you can have a near-master-quality movie that you cannot copy, or you cannot have a near-master-quality movie at all. I am quite happy with the first option. The wear and tear on a VHS tape through normal operation is somewhat less than you might think, so I'm comfortable with the lifespan of the media. And see above for my opinion on disaster. So the "you can't make a copy" thing really doesn't ring true for me.

Anyway, you must have to much money if you're able to afford a $2000 VCR just to watch your D-VHS tapes that have no random access like a DVD.

Random access brings nothing to the movie-watching experience, in my opinion. Sit down, dim the lights, open the curtain, and roll the film. When it's over, put it back on the shelf and go on about your business. I don't find myself skipping around.

I think you'll find that a lot of home theater enthusiasts like myself care more about the quality of the viewing experience than about extra features or random access. There's no random access on a 35 mm roll, after all.

Re:I hate to break it to you...

[foobar104]

First of all, I really don't understand why you're talking about broadband, and downloading movies off the Internet. This is not a significant problem for movies, and never has been. (It may be in the future, but we're a long way from that point, as you yourself have said.)

What is a significant problem is the counterfeit videotapes and DVDs being sold in vast quantities in Asia and (to a lesser extent) elsewhere. Hollywood wants to prevent widespread piracy. To do this, they're looking for copy-protected data media. The fact that this prevents you from making a backup copy-- which is a dubious "right" in my opinion, anyway-- is an unimportant side-effect.

Your repeated assertion that "it's about control" is simply unfounded. It's not about control. It's about getting paid. Hollywood wants to get paid every time somebody watches a movie. That didn't go over so well-- see Divx-- so they're happy getting paid every time somebody buys a movie. So they're trying to make it hard for people to copy movies. That's it. Please remove your tin-foil hat.

You may be happy living with the current limitations, but will you be happy when Hollywood decides that you can only watch that movie when they want to let you watch it?

Let me get this straight. When a company like Microsoft uses FUD in their marketing, you call "bullshit" on them immediately. But it's okay for you to use that same technique yourself? That's just wrong.

Furthermore, I'll repeat what I've said before. If Hollywood were trying to restrict me in a way that I was not comfortable with, I would oppose it. I'd avoid their products, or whatever happened to be appropriate. But that's not what's happening.

People who moan about Hollywood's desire for copy protection on sheer principle alone-- often invoking the same slippery-slope argument you used here-- are overreacting.

No reasonable way?

[ColGraff]

So I guess video capture cards, like the ATI TV Wonder series, are all useless. Silly me.

Seriously, spend $50 on a tv wonder VE, connect your VCR to that, you're in business. Perfectly reasonable.

Re:80's flicks on DVD...

[matrix29]

I've seen both The Dark Crystal and Labyrinth at the local Best Buy.

Bought both at the evil Wally-World (Wal0Mart) for $15 each over the past few weeks.

Re:Did they forget to tell Blockbuster?

[SuiteSisterMary]

Laserdisc flopped because of pricing and marketing. DVD is succeeding in the same way that CD beat casette tape. People like me who had bought, in their lives, five pre-recorded VHS movies, have amassed hundreds of DVDs in the last few years, because DVDs are worth owning. And to tie this back to the article on Joel on Software, it's also selling complements. DVDs are better with hooge TVs, and sweet surround sound setups, and so on. VHS, on the other hand, is actually worse looking and sounding with the better equipment; it's flaws are magnified.

Hollywood Video and Blockbuster next?

[MtViewGuy]

I think Circuit City's announcement to phase out VHS movie sales at their stores could be a harbinger of things to come.

I would be not be surprised that within 18 months both Blockbuster and Hollywood Video will announce the phaseout of VHS-format video rentals for new movie releases. The reason is simple: because DVD's are way more durable than VHS tapes, DVD movies can be on the rental market for much, much longer than VHS titles, which means potentially more revenue for Blockbuster and Hollywood Video.

Future Shop did this years ago

[Sentry21]

At Future Shop in Canada (or at least, every one I've been in for years), it's the same. They sell CDs, they sell DVDs, they sell blanks and burners for both, devices that will record VHS, ones that will do casettes, but prerecorded magnetic media is all gone.

I actually hadn't thought twice about it. VHS tapes are better by leaps in (almost) all respects. in my job, I like them because when we get a shipment in, it weighs less for more DVDs, they take up less shelf space, and we can fit the overstock away easier. No way could we have fit 70 copies of Harry Potter in our counter, but DVD wasn't a problem. Easier for retailers (Superstore), cheap (the Harry Potter DVD was $19.98 for the two-disc set, which is only a dollar or two more than our VHS titles, if not actually cheaper.

And considering the fact that you can buy a cheap DVD player for $100 CDN plus tax, there's less and less reason not to get one. Sure, it won't be top-of-the-line, but it'll be a fair sight better than VHS. All we need now are PVRs with DVD+/-RW burners (years away unless you have big cash) and all will be wonderful. You could even have a disc that would play in your DVD drive, complete with menus and subtitles (converted closed captioning) or something. Hmm...

--Dan

"Been burned"??

[Gorimek]

Hollywood has been burned three times now: VHS, VCD, DVD. It's pretty clear that they won't adopt another, more sophisticated format without some pretty strong copy protection features.

How have they been burned??

Hollywood is making a lot, possibly even the majority (haven't seen numbers in a while) of their money out of those formats.

I wish I could get burned like that.

Re:"Been burned"??

[foobar104]

How have they been burned??

Through theft, of course. When you release something for sale only to have it widely stolen by pirates on large and small scales, I call that getting burned.

You seem to be saying that the fact that Hollywood has made money somehow invalidates the fact that they've also lost potential revenue through piracy. I don't buy that argument.

Re:"Been burned"??

[Gorimek]

You're not looking at the Big Picture.

When you release something for sale, and make a ton of money on it, I don't call that being burned.

More importantly, regardless of what you call it, your original claim was that since the experience from VCR, DVD etc was so bad, Hollywood would not get into the HDTV market unless copying was somehow finally prevented.

My actual argument is that they did in fact make a ton of money on them, and would most likely do the same in HDTV media. So if they refuse to get in it, they are refusing to make money.

I'm making a purely practical argument, saying that business will probably do what makes them money. I'm not getting into moral issues at all.

Re:"Been burned"??

[foobar104]

I think both sides of this point are valid. On the one hand, if the distributors release their movies in HDTV format X, they could potentially make $N,000,000,000. But some fraction of that potential revenue is going to be lost to piracy, leaving them with $M,000,000,000. If they don't release format X, they won't get $M,000,000,000. You have a good point, there.

But on the other hand, we have the fact that Hollywood did not release any movies in HD format despite the existence of at least a few media types until JVC came up with D-Theater. That's pretty strong empirical evidence.

Again, we're back to an either-or proposition. I'm enthusiastically supporting strong copy protection in whatever new HD format comes along. The potential misuses of copying far outweigh any potential legitimate uses of copying, so I'm comfortable with that compromise.

We're basically back to the automatic weapon argument again. Automatic weapons are, technically, covered by the 2nd amendment. They're illegal anyway, because their potential for abuse outweighs the loss of liberty attached to the banning of them.

A society of pure liberty would be an anarchy. We all voluntarily give up some of our liberties to ensure the greater security and prosperity of all. Knowing exactly how much liberty is too much to sacrifice is a tricky thing. But I've made up my mind on this particular issue.

Re:OR maybe...

[fmaxwell]

1) VHS looks like poo-poo for movies

Most people don't notice or care. I've gone to people's houses and seen TV "pictures" one notch removed from snow and they are perfectly happy.

2) DVD looks great, is easier to handle, has random access, extras, etc.

No argument there.

3) most people are too stupid to program their VCRs so losing recording capability is no biggie for Ma and Pa Kettle.

Here I must disagree. While that might have been an issue in ancient times, most modern VCRs have on-screen menus so simple that an old person can program them. It's not like the bad old days when programming the VCR meant opening up a little door on the top and manipulating a myriad of tiny buttons while LEDs blinked.

I still believe that Circuit City has a vested interest in seeing VCRs go away. They don't want you to be able to record movies off of cable/satellite on a $5 tape. They want you to come into the store and pay them $20 or so for the same movie pre-recorded on a DVD that cost under a buck to press.

I give up! Why doesn't anyone understand economics

[Marx_Mrvelous]

I give up.. to all the posters below, you missde my point entirely.

I guess I'll have to dumb-down my comment from now on. Or maybe I'll just not, and let people show how little they know.

Re:This isn't such great news...

[Marx_Mrvelous]

Yes, it makes sense. But take a look at my original argument, I was addressing this statement:
"competition goes down due to low demand"

Which I'm sure you'd agree with me, is a misleading at best, totally false at worst statement.

But hey, at least I finally found an intelligent poster on /. :)

Re:This isn't such great news...

[Marx_Mrvelous]

you're missing my point, I in no way stated that DVDs made VHS tapes drop from $65 to the $8 they are now. My point is that VHS has dropped due to DVD (Seriously, before DVD could you ever find a new release hit movie for under $30? Now they're about $15! Older movies are $5).

But it works both ways, DVDs lower VHS prices, and the low price of VHS forced DVDs to have lower prices. It's a simple economic principal, dealing with "substitute goods."

Re:This isn't such great news...

[martyn s]

I *might* buy that argument, except CDs don't have any extra "commentaries" or features that cassettes don't have. What's *their* excuse?