Diamonds - Are They Really Worth the Cost?

hardDiamond asks: "I'm going to get engaged. I know my 4 C's. I know I'm going to get screwed by the jeweller, but that's okay: after all, a diamond engagement ring is a time-honoured tradition... NOT. Having checked out the goods, looked for the flaws, I found the biggest one of all. Diamond engagement rings are the creation of a well orchestrated advertising campaign for most of the last century - according to this article. Would you buy one for the love of your life? I know my girlfriend would love a diamond, but ethically I have my doubts. Diseased-miners, child slave labour, cartel inflated prices... and as if that wasn't enough, diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch. They'll sell you the shit, but damn it, they're not taking it back at any price. So what have my fellow slashdotters done with regards to engagement rings? What's a good substitute for diamonds? My girlfriend understands my thoughts regarding diamonds, but deep down, I'm sure she would like a diamond. Even a small one." I've never even thought about questioning such a time honored tradition, but now I'm curious. Have any of you looked at the issues surrounding diamonds and found them wanting? What alternatives have you found and were they acceptable? After researching this a bit, one of the key facts to surface is that 2-4.5% of diamond sales will go to finance terrorism or forms of violence. Such diamonds, for want of a better term, have been named "conflict diamonds". For those of you interested in following up on this subject, here are a few more links:

Fatal Transactions
Conflict Diamonds: Sanctions and War
The Campaign to Eliminate Conflict Diamonds
The Kimberly Process, which will attempt to track diamonds to their origin. This is to begin in November.

For those of you who have a subscription to Science News, the cover story, this month, deals with this issue as well.

Comments

Opals

[atrus]

Opals are always a nice stone and do have a decent resale value. Of course they're rather hard to find in the US.

You know, it's just too easy

[RaboKrabekian]

Slashdot readers?

Girlfriends?

Marriage?

This has to be some sort of hoax. Is it April already?

Re:You know, it's just too easy

[MAXOMENOS]

It's not April Fool's. It's horrifyingly real. Even I'm getting dates.

Just wait for five years until the Slashdot generation starts having kids. You'll be seeing stories about baby formulae and disposable diapers.

Terrorism vs. Cars

[fishy jew]

one of the key facts to surface is that 2-4.5% of diamond sales will go to finance terrorism or forms of violence

What percentage of gas sales do you think finance terrorism? Money goes from our hands to the gas companies to oil companies in the Mid-East to (possibly) terrorist organizations. Probably true about many other products as well...

Easy alternative

[stere0]

Build up a geek website with a couple of friends, make it popular and propose on the front page a couple of years later.

How can they have no resale value?

[phr2]

If they have no resale value, they you could buy a used diamond very cheaply and get a jeweler to put it in a new setting for you, and that would kill the market for new diamonds. They don't wear out, of course. "Diamonds are forever" and all that.

I agree with most of your other points about the disgusting practices used to produce diamonds and market them.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[JordoCrouse]

If you walk into a store with cash on hand its quite easy to walk out with a huge discount beyond their regular 50% off sales.

Better yet, see if you can somebody to refer you to a diamond wholesaler. They save you a bundle, and the person who refered you will get a small kickback as a referer's fee. I got my diamond for wholesale, and because the jeweler recommended me, he ended up applying the referer's fee to the price of the ring. Result? The ring appraised the next day for almost double what I paid for it.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[Tablizer]

Aren't they produced deep within the crust of the earth at unimaginable pressures or something like that?

Sound like a good description of the marriage proposal process.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[Arandir]

Or the best alternative of all: "This is my Grandmother's engagement ring. My grandparents were married 58 years and were deeply in love every minute of it. I would be honored for you to have this."

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[John Hasler]

Have you ever tried to turn that appraisal into actual money?

Two Words:

[Null_Packet]

Antique Ring.

I gave my wife a pretty cool engagement ring from an antique jewelry outfit. Sure, it's 2nd hand, but it has the personality and it doesn't get crazy as far as prices go either.

Canadian diamonds

[simetra]

They're really expensive, but are guaranteed not to have the ethical overhead of others. Plus, they have a cool little polar bear laser-etched into the side (very tiny, you have to use a loupe to see it).

They're called Polar Bear Diamonds.

Re:Canadian diamonds

[gehrehmee]

As silly as this sounds, it looks like this might actually be true.

http://www.siriusdiamonds.com/

Fuck tradition

[nicfit]

My girlfriend told me not to WASTE our money and instead we spent three crazy weeks in Hawaii AND had money in the bank.

God I love her!

diamond sponsored terrorism

[Snuffub]

Great, i fully expect the bush administration to put out new commercials linking diamond sales to terrorism and urging all "true" americans to stay clear of them. I mean they did the same thing with pot without one proven link between marijuana sales and terrorist organizations.

Re:diamond sponsored terrorism

[simetra]

Yeah, not to mention that OIL money is probably the biggest source of funds for terrorism.

"I helped blow up a fireman's dog - by driving my SUV!"

Show on Nova last week!

[Telastyn]

About manufactured diamonds and their history.

currently Gemesis is America's primary manufacturer. They are building a $25m factory for making better/ different colored diamonds. Currently they can make yellow ones, though the show showed clear, and fanciful colored ones (in testing it seems).

They are "real" diamonds, pretty much seeded carbon crystal. Any gemologist can likely tell you they are real diamond, albeit manufactured. AFAIK the cost is a little higher, if not compriable for now.

Most women aren't nearly so shallow

[bman08]

My fiancee was totally cool with the idea of another kind of stone, or with a fake. Show your girl some pictures of the kids from the mines, you'd be surprised how receptive she gets.

Get a GIANT phoney and she can still brag/lie to her family/friends and secretly feel morally superior.

Do you two talk to each other?

[A nonymous Coward]

Seriously. If you can't talk to each other about this, then you are fools to even consider marriage. If you would rather get /. opinions on this than talk it over with the gf, then you aren't ready.

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[Safety Cap]

If you can't talk to each other about this, then you are fools to even consider marriage

Whaa? Of course he'd want to pose this message to /. -- just think about the consequences if he tries to moderate his girlfriend as "-1, Troll" or "-1, Offtopic": he'd either get spanked by the "lameness" filter, or bitchslapped permanently when she $rtbls him!

It's not worth taking the risk.

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[Troy]

What the last guy said. When I got engaged, my girlfriend and I spent some time talking about what kind of ring to get. We didn't obsess over it, but it was up for some pretty honest discussion.

I am a very practical person who sees such things as being symbols pointing to something much greater. Whenever I see those "A diamond is forever" commercials, I think "So 6 months' salary saved towards a house!"

A tatoo on your ass, now THAT lasts forever! :-)

As it turned out, she felt the same way, so we took a route that was appropriate.

I think it is helpful to just establish what her hopes are related to this(real hopes, not what she thinks she should say) and what your real reservations are...then explore options that make both of you honestly happy. If this is an important issue to both of you, then compromising becomes a lose-lose situation and will pop up to bite one of you two later. Indeed, compromise is only acceptable if one of you turns out not to care all *that* much about the issue....a helpful tip to remember.

My girlfriend and I once fought about an issue for 18 months before finding a win-win solution.....mainly because if one of us compromised it would have haunted us later.

As far as win-win possibilities go, antique jewelry is a wonderful way to go. All of the jewelry will have a history and story related to it, and may cost less than "new" jewelry.

Also perhaps visiting a jeweler to discuss other gemstones would be helpful. My mother (a collector) showed me "Mystic Pink Topaz" the other day. It's an absolutely beautiful rose colored gem that seems to yank the light right out of the air and sparkle with blues, greens, purples, etc.

Good luck with the ring, the relationship, etc etc etc.

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[Bodrius]

"A tatoo on your ass, now THAT lasts forever! :-)

As it turned out, she felt the same way, so we took a route that was appropriate."

Now, I have to ask... Did you really intend to write those two sentences together?

Progress in synthetics

[Phronesis]

Progress in large gem-quality synthetic diamonds is proceeding so fast that DeBeers is developing quite sophisticated techniques (ultraviolet phosphorescence) to allow jewelers to tell synthetic from natural stones. Perhaps it will not be too long before the "conflict diamond" problem disappears because synthetics displace natural diamonds for most of the market.

A good account of the state of the art two years ago can be found in the transcript of a NOVA show on diamond synthesis: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2703diamo nd.html

When you send one of our diamonds to De Beers, right, the only way they can detect that this is not a natural diamond is really through phosphorescence. They take this, and they put in, they hit it with a UV light, and after the UV light goes off, this thing will phosphoresce for about three to five seconds. That is typical of a synthetic diamond versus a natural diamond.

...

NARRATOR:Faced with the future threat of synthetic diamonds being imperceptible to the trade, De Beers is already preparing its bottom line - one low-tech way to guarantee detection. They are putting minute logos on their diamonds.

STEPHEN LUSSIER: If we can give the consumer a little bit more help in telling him what's a good diamond, that regardless of what they know or what their jeweler knows, De Beers has told them that this diamond is natural from - as it came out of the ground, created by nature billions of years ago and not one that popped out of a machine last Wednesday in Kansas City.

Re:alternatives?

[Gudlyf]

Yes, you do need to understand that this is a gift for her, not you. The question is, what does she want? Does she agree with your concerns, or are you going to just pick an alternative and hope for the best?

I may have plenty of ethical issues against the fine leather used in the new shoes my wife wants for her birthday, but it doesn't mean I'll try buying her a pair of canvas sneakers and hope she doesn't notice.

The Gods Must Be Crazy

[Anonymous Coward]

Tradition? Gimme a friggin break. The US is too young to have traditions, kerr-rrrist. Women and diamond rings remind me of that movie, "The Gods Must be Crazy", where the natives find an empty Coke bottle and worship it as some kind of..umm...err...worshipped item. Seriously, women are like little monkeys when they see rings, but y'know, all it is, is a friggin rock attached to some shiny metal. "Oohh, look at shi-nee met-tal...perty, ain't it". Geez. Materialistic women need to get with reality and stop the pretentious b.s. If you love someone, it'll be in yer heart, not on a f@!*ckin finger. Leave the symbols to the symbol-minded (as a Carlinist I couldn't resist that one!). If you can't afford her, she's not worth it.

My wife is Japanese, and we didn't have to go through ANY of this lame b.s. We got married in Japan without a stadium-sized crowd and did a tea ceremony. There were no "trinkets" exchanged, only love expressed through ACTION. Now I'm all for diamond rings as a gift, or to show appreciation, but if a woman requires a ring for engagement - if it takes a manmade little rock and metal craft to make her smile, then her heart is in the wrong place.

One answer, eh? Ethical Canadian Diamonds

[Audent]

http://canadian-diamonds.theshoppe.com/canadian_di amond_mining.htm

to quote: Canadian diamonds treasured by the worlds diamond experts. Sought after for their incredible beauty and brilliance. Mined in accordance to the highest ethical standards.

I believe everything I read on the Internet, of course, but hey, worth a look - especially if you want to REALLY surprise her with the kneeling and the asking and the whatnot.

My wife is cool

[doog]

Seeing as how I had no idea how to pick a ring, I bought a $20 engagement ring for my wife. When I proposed I gave it to her and told her it was a symbol and that we could pick the ring of her choice for her. She refused and said she didn't want any other ring. She said that was the ring I gave to her and it was the most beautiful ring in the world.

Try Emeralds

[freakinPsycho]

Better than diamonds or opals are emeralds.

Emeralds are actually more rare than diamonds, and so are worth more.

Not just advertising...

[Will_Malverson]

In his book "Hidden Order: The Economics of Everyday Life", David D. Friedman says that there is another reason for the growth in engagement rings over the past century. In a nutshell:

Premarital sex was not invented in the 1960s, and has in fact been around ever since just before the first marriage. Of course, back in the good old days, a good girl would never have sex before wedlock. However, some were willing to bend the rules once they were engaged. So, men quickly discovered that you could ask a woman to marry you, have sex with her, and then break off the engagement.

Up until 1935, this was considered an actionable tort in 47 of the 48 states. A woman who was deceived in this way could sue for the value of her lost virginity and subsequent difficulty in acquiring a husband. State legislatures passed laws against these suits in the 1930s and 1940s.

So, after this ability was removed, women needed a new way to ensure that a man proposing marriage really meant it. It became social custom that a man asking for marriage would post a performance bond equivalent to about twice his monthly salary. This bond would be forfeitable upon his breaking off of the engagement, but returnable if she broke off the engagement. This 'bond' was implemented as a diamond ring, because it was an easy way to, er, 'crystalize' two months of his salary in an easy-to-handle package.

In essence, the engagement ring is a private reimplementation of a canceled government policy.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!!

[Brightest Light]

Alright. Let's review. You post on Slashdot. You have a girl you are going to marry.
You are a nerd with a girlfriend.
Most of the people here rarely talk to girls (no, its not flamebait; im one of them), let alone marry them! Buy her a diamond ring you idiot!

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Skyshadow]

apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

You've never had a girlfriend, have you?

Look, women think differently than men on some issues, but you disregard that point of view only at your great peril. So fucking what if sending flowers is stupid? If it makes your girl feel loved, well, mission accomplished.

Don't be a goon.

Wrong Question

[philipsblows]

Much like the megahertz myth, the need for a diamond engagement ring has been cultivated through careful marketing and peer pressure.

But.

The cost of NOT getting this diamond ring may be the relationship itself. It may not occur right away (she might still accept your proposal) but this will be a major disappointment to a woman who has had an engagement ring (or a rock as my ex-girlfriend called it), and it just might set the tone for the rest of your time together.

As has been pointed out elsehwhere in this very thread, gasoline, diamonds, honey, opium, and a whole bunch of other products all contribute to terrorism or cruel treatment of our fellow humans or various other badnesses in the world.

In the end, though, it will be infinitely easier to get a fuel-efficient car and switch away from various other products than it will be to alter the mindset of the woman (and ALL of her friends) who considers not where it came from or how it got there, but merely that it is on her finger.

So, if you want to get married and start of on the right foot with her, you should of course shop for the best value you can find in your budget and so on, but yes, the diamond is worth it.

[save your energy... cede her victory on this one, fight the good fight when she wants to know why you are "wasting" so much money on a cable modem/DSL, fast graphics cards, etc.]

Re:Wrong Question

[Artificer]

The cost of NOT getting this diamond ring may be the relationship itself.

If someone is SO materialistic so as to BREAK OFF a relationship that is leading to marriage just because they don't get a diamond ring, then there's a decent chance that they're probably not worth the relationship in the first place.

I happen to really believe in commitment, and someone who would break off a relationship that is that serious for a reason such as this, just doesn't seem like they are committed to the relationship themselves.

Yes - you need to get one.

[Eagle7]

YES!! Unless she told you no, then you ought to get one for her. Perhaps you can find an heirlom diamond in your family that you would be able to use, thus saving on cost and ethical issues.

But basically, unless you pass the following test, I suspect that deep down you are looking for an excuse to be cheap:

• Do you only buy ethically OK clothing, and be very careful to make sure of it?
• Do you make sure that your coffee is grown under ethical conditions?
• Do you ensure that all your computer products and other electronics haven't been made for cheap in Mexico, thereby polluting the environment there even worse?
• Do you ensure that all your tech products are disposed of properly, and not polluting some third world country?
• Do you avoid buying things "Made in China" or elsewhere where you cannot be sure of the conditions/ages of the workers?

Unless you do all of those things, I would posit that you are already contributing to unethical behavior with your participation in commerce. If you do do all those things, and your g/f isn't open to the no diamond idea although she will jump through those hoops, then she is being hypocritical.

I say buy her the diamond and have a wonderful life together. Coming from a happily engaged man (who both bought and used inheritted diamonds)

Re:Yes - you need to get one.

[dbretton]

But basically, unless you pass the following test, I suspect that deep down you are looking for an excuse to be cheap:
(snip snip)

If you answer 'yes' to any one of the following questions, you must also be cheap:

- I like to pay extraordinary amounts of money for products of inferior quality.

- I enjoy pissing away thousands of dollars on a piece of jewelry that is kept artificially overvalued.

- I love being at the mercy of international jewel cartels.

- I like getting ripped off.

Great idea

[drew_kime]

An engagement is a once-in-a-lifetime event; save your consumer ethics for more trivial occasions (anniversaries, Christmas, etc).

Absolutely. Be proud of those ethics so long as they don't really interfere with anything you care about.

I Got my wife a Tree

[Zapdos]

It is planted in one of our city parks, is professionally cared for, and has a sign that declares My Love to Her. A ring would have been cheaper. The tree cost $6000.00 which would have bought a very nice rock.
Our wedding was under the tree. We are planning to buy a bench to place under the tree as soon as the city allows.

There are other countries...

[SoSueMe]

There are other, less oppressive, countries to obtain diamonds from.
Where?
Canada.
What? Canada?
There are only Igloos and Eskimos (Inuit) up there, right?

Not so, there are also Polar Bears.
http://www.siriusdiamonds.com/home.htm

If you're Canadian, buy Canadian.
If you're American, buy North American.

Just a suggestion.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[susano_otter]

That's not a problem with flowers, that's a problem with bullshit fake "holidays".

Try this: buy some roses for her on any other day of the year. Not only will they be easier and cheaper to get, but I guarantee you she will be ten times happier with a spontaneous sign of affection. All you're really saying on Feb. 14 is "I got you these flowers because my television told me to." Any other day of the year, the message is "I was driving home from work when it hit me how much I love you, so I stopped off at the store and bought you some flowers."

Re:alternatives?

[Moofie]

I'd take exactly the opposite tack. If either party in the relationship is REALLY that worried about what the Joneses think, to the point that they'll be psychologically scarred by not having what everybody else has, I'd say the relationship is doomed from the get-go. A lifetime commitment to honor and cherish another human being is infinitely more precious than a hunk of clear carbon.

Talk it over with your intended. Express your feelings. Come to a consensus. Then, spit in the eye of anybody who disparages your (collective) choice.

Diamonds aren't this girl's best friend

[MsGeek]

How interesting that this subject comes up just a few days shy of my 15th wedding anniversary.

When Richie and I got engaged, it was back in the day when South Africa was ruled by the Apartheid regime and Nelson Mandela had been doing time for longer than I had been alive. I told him "no diamonds." We went to a local lapidary shop where they had many different options for stones and picked out a sterling silver setting for it. I chose a diamond-cut quartz crystal. It was beautiful, the ring didn't cost much at all, and after someone assembled it Richie proposed to me in front of everyone in the store. Got on one knee and everything. Priceless. Everyone applauded.

However, that ring was short lived. I don't remember exactly how I did it, but the ring's setting got bent and I lost the stone. It lasted only a few months.

Next, sometime around Christmas that year, there were several small jewelry carts that set up in the local mall. One had a ring with a great-looking amethyst point mounted on it. Not too expensive, looked cool. We grabbed it. The ring lasted for about a year before the amethyst point worked its way loose. I Krazy-glued it in and it stayed in for a few weeks more before I lost it for good.

Richie was upset, I was bummed. Two rings given, two down. I decided the next replacement for the engagement ring would not have a stone, tradition be damned.

That next summer I found a sterling silver Claddagh ring. Traditional Irish love token. Symbol from pre-Christian times. Very appropriate. Very cool. I've had it ever since.

Anyway, even with Apartheid over, I wouldn't touch diamonds if they were...well, diamonds. For one thing, I'm not crazy about them aesthetically. I'd rather have a blue topaz or a sapphire or a ruby or emerald or even better, a fire opal. For another thing, unless you can make darn sure where you are getting them from, you could get them from terrorists or Russian mafiosos or any number of other unsavory folks.

And most importantly...I would rather spend my money on geeky stuff. Save that money and get something I really want...like a DVD-RW or a Radeon AIW 8500 video card.

If your intended is a geek grrl, get her something she'll really want. If she isn't...well...maybe that diamond is kinda mandatory. Check up on the provenance of that rock...there are Canadian stones from the Yukon Territory strike that have a polar bear etched next to the laser-inscribed ID. There's nothing morally reprehensible about the Canadians, last time I checked.

figures

[God! Awful]

Not to trivialize this or anything (I'm against buying diamonds too), but this makes me laugh. It seems like whenever Slashdotters don't want to pay for something (e.g. CDs), they find some kind of ethical reason why they shouldn't.

-a

exactly

[UberQwerty]

I completely agree. Who wants to date a girl to whom whether or not you're willing to waste a significant chunk of your net worth to prove it is a deal-breaker? Am I the only one who has noticed that the emperor has no clothes on?

So... Ms. casualgeorge... what are you doing this weekend? ;)

Just tell her I said,

[orthogonal]

"Honey, some loveless geek on Slashdot told me not to get you a diamond. So, really, it's not my fault, ok?"

"BTW, I re-partioned your PC, got rid of Windows, and set you up with free BSD and a Tesla coil."

"Honey? Honey?"

lessons from my family

[xeno]

Some personal perspective on the issue:

• What my grandfather did: He worked as a chemist for a big-name laboratory, and took a the first chunk of a metal alloy that he invented, and had it forged into a three-metal set of intertwined bands. The result looked similar to those silver-gold-copper ringsets that are pretty common, except that it was silver, gold, and this high-strength alloy he invented. No stone. His wife loved that it was (a) unique, (b) symbolized his effort and thought, (c) had high value but didn't make her feel like a target for muggers in 1920's NYC. They were still diggin' each other when they died in their 90's.
• What my father did: Bought a gold ring with a run-o-the-mill diamond. Matching plain band. Divorced. Ugly, ugly divorce. Lots of money issues. Fought over the return of the ring.
• What I did: I took my wife-to-be to a local place that did platinum casting through the lost-wax method. We created a design, checked out the wax models before casting, and let the metal artist do his thing. They're both a honeycomb design with no stone, which worked fine as engagement & wedding ring. My wife digs it because (a) our rings are unique/only similar to each other, (b) we designed them together, (c) they're *very* durable, and (d) there's a lot less guilt associated with a valuable metal than in an overpriced colorless stone. I still dig this chick after 15 years.

That isn't very many data points, but I think the lesson is that if the ring selection is more of a personal investment than a shopping effort, it's a good sign. Sure, the ring should have some durable value, but anyone who says only diamonds have value as a symbol of love needs to ponder on the primary practical use of diamonds: an abrasive.

Jon

The Atlantic article is really interesting

[phr2]

I may blow some /. karma by saying this, but that Atlantic article is one of the best pieces I've seen linked from /. in quite a while. It has nothing to do with tech or software and can't really be called news for nerds, but it's an eye-opener about how businesses manipulate public perception out there in the real world. If you skipped the article and went straight to the comments like I did, it's worth going back to read the article.

One ring to tule them all...

[starX]

If you think diamonds are forever, you're going to love the new One Ring model at Sauron's Jewelers (with 1 convenient locataion in the Barad-dur shopping mall, located right in the shadow of Mount Doom).

This ring is guaranteed to last for all eternity, and will grant countless powers as well as being a pledge of your ever lasting and eternal love. When my grandfather first forged this ring in ages past, he made it to last, and it has certainly stood the test of time. What better way of telling that special someone "This is going to last forever?"

Supplies are EXTREMELY limited, so hurry on in, or email DarkLord@mordor.org for this and other wonderful items.

Something I saw posted...

[D. Mann]

This wasn't written by me; I copied it off of the somethingawful.com forums.

Actual conversation between me and my girlfriend:

Me: If we get engaged, don't expect much in the way of a ring. I'm pretty broke.
Her: It's OK. I don't need a very expensive ring.
Me [uneasy at the qualifier "very"]: ... because your brother just got engaged, and that ring he gave her was pretty impressive...
Her: Yes, it was beautiful! I'd love to have a ring like that!
Me: ... and I'm worried that anything I could give you wouldn't measure up to that.
Her: Don't be silly. I wouldn't want more than you could afford.
Me: Define "afford."
Her: Two months' salary is normal.
Me [calculating]: Um... wow. That would be, like, $4000. That's a lot.
Her: Gross, dear, not net. It would be more like $6000.
Me: Who makes up these rules?
Her: That's just the custom, honey.
Me: You know that's just a marketing gimmick started by the diamond cartels around the turn of the century, don't you?
Her: Silly. I don't need an expensive ring.
Me: The conversation up to this point notwithstanding?
Her: Two months' salary is normal. It's not expensive.
Me: So if you found, say, $6000 worth of computer hardware on our joint credit card, I could say "Hey, that's not expensive; it's just what computers cost!"
Her: That's different. That would be just for you. The ring is for both of us.
Me: So I get to wear this ring part of the time?
Her: Silly. The ring shows everyone how much you love me.
Me: And what shows everyone how much you love me?
Her: The ring.
Me: Do you see a certain asymmetry in this arrangement?
Her: You should be proud that everyone sees me wearing your ring. It tells the world how much you value me.
Me: Approximately $6000 worth, apparently. Does this mean that rich men value their wives more than poor men?
Her: No. It's two months' salary for everyone.
Me: Ah, so wives are priced on a sliding scale, then, like low-income housing?
Her: I wouldn't put it that way.
Me: How would you put it?
Her: A little money is a small price to pay for something that lasts forever.
Me: You lifted that directly from a jewelery commercial.
Her: That doesn't make it untrue.
Me: Touché.
Her: Look, if you live to be 80...
Me: I don't like that "if."
Her [ignoring me]: ... and you're 33 now, that's $6000 divided by 47 years of marriage. That's like, $130 a year. You spend more than that on video games.
Me: I'm alarmed at how quickly you arrived at that number.
Her [ignoring me]: $130 a year isn't so much for my love, is it?
Me: Well, it's a good deal cheaper than escort services.... OW! OW! Quit hitting; I'm driving here!
Her: You get a lot more from this relationship than sex.
Me: Yeah, the contusions make it all worthwhile.
Her: Baby.
Me: Y'know, this actually works out better for you if I die early. Your yearly value increases inversely to the length of my life. If I only live to 50....
Her: I'm tired of talking about this.
Me: That's because you're losing.
Her: I'm not losing. We're not competing. You told me you couldn't afford an expensive ring, and I said that was OK.
Me: Ah, so it's the "affording" part that's irrelevant.
Her: Stop being so silly. I've bought jewelry on credit before; it's no big deal.
Me: That's the solution!
Her: What is?
Me: You buy the ring.
Her: That's not how it works, honey.
Me: If people look at the ring to see how much I love you, wouldn't it make sense to get the most expensive ring available? You've got better credit than me, so....
Her: But the point is for you to buy it, so people can see how much you value me.
Me: How are people going to know who bought it? Do the salespeople engrave the credit card holder's name on the band?
Her: I'll know.
Me: Well, yes, that's a given.
Her: I'll know you didn't want to pay for my ring.
Me: I thought we'd established that.
Her: I'm tired of talking about this. Forget it.
Me: I'm trying to understand, really. We're supposed to have a token of our love, right?
Her: Whatever. Right.
Me: This token is something you would want anyway, a piece of jewelry.
Her: Honey...
Me: Bear with me. The token is sized for you, presumably styled the way I think you'd like it...
Her: Actually, I get to pick it out.
Me: Even better for my purposes. So the token is styled just for you, sized so only you can wear it. You keep it with you always. Do we both own it?
Her: No, the bride owns the ring always.
Me: OK. So you get a ring that may or may not be expensive, depending on your definition, which is your exclusive property to do with as you please. I get to pay for it. Remember what I said about asymmetry?
Her: So you want a ring?
Me: No. To be symmetrical, it would have to be something I want. A laptop, for instance.
Her: You want an engagement laptop?
Me: That's just an example.
Her: That's not parallel. Computers depreciate; good jewelry doesn't.
Me: Good point. I guess there's no such thing as a ring upgrade.
Her: Actually, they make these things called "sleeves" which you buy for major anniversaries....
Me: Dude, I'm gettin' a Dell!

Re:Something I saw posted...

[suffocate]

plastickiwi wrote that. Here's a follow up of sorts. Why he went and got married to that chick is beyond me. eh.

Scene: a chalet bedroom, 3am.

Her: Do you love me?
Me: Wha? Who? Whassamatta?
Her: Are you asleep?
Me: Have we not already established the futility of asking that question?
Her: So you don't love me?
Me: What? Start over.
Her: I asked if you love me and you said it was a futile question.
Me: No, asking "Are you asleep?" is a futile question.
Her: Why?
Me: Either I am, in which case I can't hear you, or I'm not, in which case you can go ahead and talk to me without asking if I am. The question itself is pointless.
Her: But if you answer it, I know you're awake.
Me: But you want to know if I'm awake for a reason, right? You want to ask another question, right?
Her: Right.
Me: So why not just ask it? If I'm awake, I'll answer. If not, I won't. Same thing, fewer questions.
Her: So asking if you're awake is inefficient?
Me: Exactly.
Her: I wasn't aware efficiency is a concern in conversation.
Me: Efficiency is always a concern.
Her: So why do you leave the seat up?
Me: Clarify.
Her: Why do you leave the toilet seat up? I always need it down, and you need it down 50% of the time. Efficiency would require leaving it down as a matter of practice.
Me: True.
Her: So why doesn't efficiency govern your behavior in the bathroom?
Me: I'm a hypocrite.
Her: That's a defense for anything.
Me: Clarify.
Her: Committing to a principle means abiding by its consequences. If you adopt rules in one situation, but ignore the implications of those rules in another...
Me: I'm a hypocrite.
Her: Exactly.
Me: But I admitted that.
Her: That obviates the utility of adopting rules in the first place. If you can wiggle out of anything by acknowledging hypocrisy, I could kill you and justify it by saying, "Well, I don't believe in killing people, but I'm a murderer."
Me: That's interesting.
Her: That's what you say when you can't think of anything else to say.
Me: What?
Her: "That's interesting." Then you say "What?" when I call you on it.
Me: You wanted something when this conversation started, didn't you?
Her: ...and then you change the subject.
Me: Your critique is merely descriptive, and therefore trivial. I know what I do. Stating it as if you've caught me at something scores you no points.
Her: I just wanted you to know I'm not fooled.
Me: Noted. Now, was there some other question?
Her: Do you love me?
Me: I believe the fact we were just married should answer that question adequately.
Her: Lots of married people don't love each other.
Me: True. I do love you, as it happens.
Her: Thank you.
Me: Wanna have sex?
Her: It's less fun now that it's legal.
Me: Is that a "no"?
Her: No.

One word: liquidity

[IntelliTubbie]

If they have no resale value, they you could buy a used diamond very cheaply and get a jeweler to put it in a new setting for you, and that would kill the market for new diamonds. They don't wear out, of course. "Diamonds are forever" and all that.

The used diamond market isn't like the used car market, where the resale value drops as soon as you drive your shiny new Mustang off the lot. That is, it's not that market prices are low -- it's that there is no market. Because De Beers has created the impression that diamonds are priceless (if not in monetary value, then in sentimental value), almost no one sells their used diamonds. And because no one sells them, no one expects to buy them either. This has completely eliminated the secondary market for diamonds -- outside of shady outfits like pawn shops, which can hardly be considered bastions of "fair market value".

The total lack of liquidity in the used diamond market means that De Beers can continue to have complete control over prices. Why is stifling liquidity just as important as stifling competition? Look at what happened to hardware companies like Cisco when the Internet bubble burst. As if it weren't bad enough that Cisco lost customers, they found that prospective customers were buying cheap, lightly used hardware off the dot-bombs at fire sale prices instead of from Cisco. This is even more important for De Beers, since a diamond has a considerably longer usable life than a router. The moral of the story: if you want to sell your product to everyone at ridiculous prices, without screwing yourself in the future by saturating the market with resalable goods, then do exactly what De Beers has done.

Cheers,
IT

Re:The Answer

[LintMan]

I agree. For a lot of women, they've wanted and dreamed of a nice engagement ring since they were kids. Getting that diamond ring is a sort of validation for some women.

Is this misplaced desire, partly formed by marketing hype and peer pressure? Yes. But so is my lust for say, a new BMW 5-series, or even the latest 2.6 GHz Pentium.

I spent a bunch on my wife's rock, which felt to me like 'wasted' money, but I have to say it's made her happy. Before you say she's all about the money though... she really isn't very materialistic at all, but getting that nice diamond really meant something to her. When the time came to spend money of other things, such as our wedding plans, or even when I ask her what she wants for a birthday gift, she is quite economical.

Beyond that, though, I also guess that over the course of our marriage, I'll probably spend ten times more on computer upgrades and other "toys" for myself (that she could care less about) as I will on jewelry for her (that I could care less about), so I guess I can't really complain! Probably it'd be the same for many other people here...I think that's something most of the techno-geeks here should keep in mind.

Re:alternatives?

[BollocksToThis]

Who the fuck do these bitches think they are?

Well, apparently, they're the materialistic small-minded bitches who would marry someone for the financial security they could provide. OF COURSE they're going to want something ridiculously expensive and pointless - it establishes the way things are to go from that point on.

Sorry, I do know you were joking...

Indeed

[dnoyeb]

I bought my wife a diamond. She was a fiend, what could I do? Then 6 months later when I bough my computer I tried to hide the fact that it cost more than the diamond...

Didn't want to fuel that whole "more time with the computer" thing you know ;)

Advice from a /. chick!

[TrinSF]

Yes, I'm one of those few mythic creatures, a ./ poster with no Y chromosome. Though I'm not that chick-identified, here's some advice from the girl point of view:

1. Even the most progressive feminist can sometimes be profoundly cliche'd when thinking about marriage. Our society teaches and reinforces strong ideas and imagery around weddings and marriage from a very early age -- heterosexual women are steeped in cultural tradition around marriage. It's hard to fight decades of "this is every girl's dream".

2. If she wants a diamond, get her a diamond. Don't make her spend the next 50 years of her life looking down at her hand and thinking, "Instead of a diamond ring, I got a symbol of his political and social stance."

3. If you don't want to support new diamond sales, consider estate jewelry. For a reasonable price, you can buy a ring that has a sense of history to it, that is a beautiful thing, and is less charged with the modern baggage. For that matter, an estate jewelry specialist can also help you make the choice. Talk to a pro! Explain you want something beautiful and unique, that you want to spend X dollars, etc.

4. If you decide not to go with the diamond, give your bride-to-be *positive* language around your choice. Don't get her a different kind of ring because you don't like the social ramifications of diamond mining -- get her a different kind of ring because you don't feel a run-of-the mill diamond ring accurately reflects the special and unique qualities in her and in your relationship.

5. Don't use not getting a diamond as an excuse to skimp on the cost. Buying a 300.00 ring instead of a 3000.00 ring 'because diamonds are tainted with the blood of workers' says you were looking for an excuse to be cheap. It's not about the money, but it's not just the thought that counts, either.

6. Size *does* matter, but it cuts both ways. Dicks *and* diamonds can both be tooooo big.

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[deblau]

I felt I had to reply. Apologies in advance, because I'm a hardass.

1. Even the most progressive feminist can sometimes be profoundly cliche'd when thinking about marriage. Our society teaches and reinforces strong ideas and imagery around weddings and marriage from a very early age -- heterosexual women are steeped in cultural tradition around marriage. It's hard to fight decades of "this is every girl's dream".

Yes, yes it is hard, but that doesn't mean the fight isn't worth making. I for one am sorry that the "progressive feminists" as you call them are still so materialistic. I would be much more happy if they would preach mutual love and respect, regardless of how big his wallet or his dick are. And I do think it's a shame society is so stereotyped. Cliches and stereotypes are easy excuses for not observing and thinking for yourself. (Yes, I know stereotypes have psychological protective value, but we're talking about marriage here, a situation in which we've gone way beyond casual contact.)

2. If she wants a diamond, get her a diamond. Don't make her spend the next 50 years of her life looking down at her hand and thinking, "Instead of a diamond ring, I got a symbol of his political and social stance."

I want a Lexus sport coupe. Get me one. Or 50 years from now, I'll be thinking, "all I got was a lousy Geo Metro".

Do I deserve a car, or ring, or anything else because we're getting married? Do I really deserve anything more than love, respect, and honesty? Have I somehow earned something more? What have I paid for it, what have I put into the relationship that demands more than what I'm already getting? I think the real question to be asking here is, "Why do I need this ring? What does it mean?" Think about that, and let me know what your answer is. (BTW, I don't consider spending money for its own sake a worthwhile reason. I consider it flamboyant, vain, and ultimately destructive.)

And frankly, if the love of my life got me a present based on her political stance, then considering the fact that I was planning on marrying this woman, and that I must already be happy with her views, I would be deeply honored.

3. If you don't want to support new diamond sales, consider estate jewelry. For a reasonable price, you can buy a ring that has a sense of history to it, that is a beautiful thing, and is less charged with the modern baggage. For that matter, an estate jewelry specialist can also help you make the choice. Talk to a pro! Explain you want something beautiful and unique, that you want to spend X dollars, etc.

If you decide to go down this road, then I applaud the creativity of this suggestion.

4. If you decide not to go with the diamond, give your bride-to-be *positive* language around your choice. Don't get her a different kind of ring because you don't like the social ramifications of diamond mining -- get her a different kind of ring because you don't feel a run-of-the mill diamond ring accurately reflects the special and unique qualities in her and in your relationship.

Positive language is important. But please don't tell me how to feel, or what I may like or dislike, or by what reasons I am allowed to act. No one has that right.

5. Don't use not getting a diamond as an excuse to skimp on the cost. Buying a 300.00 ring instead of a 3000.00 ring 'because diamonds are tainted with the blood of workers' says you were looking for an excuse to be cheap. It's not about the money, but it's not just the thought that counts, either.

When I buy something, I trade my money, the exchange for the fruits of my labor, for the fruits of someone else's. The amount I'm willing to pay depends on how much value I think I'm getting from the transaction. What value am I getting from this purchase?

Furthermore, I don't put a price-tag on emotions, since they are no one's to buy or sell. My love for any woman isn't worth $300, $3000, or $3,000,000. It's priceless, because it's mine, and mine alone. And if it's not the thought that counts, is it the money? Is it the prestige? If I spent the aforementioned $3,000,000 on a diamond ring, would the woman I gave it to love me any more than if I spent $300? If so, she's no one I'd want to marry.

6. Size *does* matter, but it cuts both ways. Dicks *and* diamonds can both be tooooo big.

Agreed, on both counts.

Re:alternatives?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right, it comes down to what she wants. Keep in mind that the "surprise" diamond engagement ring was invented by DeBeers (who paid for for the placement of said surprises in movies) specifically because their research showed that when the man asked the woman what she wanted, she almost _always_ preferred the man to spend the money on something practical like a down payment on a house or a car. Only by making men believe that women wanted a diamond ring, and didn't want to be asked about it, could they convince men to spend several months' salary on something the woman didn't actually want, and embarrass the woman into not admitting to that fact.

So if you want to donate money do DeBeers (hint: they don't need any more) go ahead and surprise your wife with a diamond ring. But if you have a relationship of trust and communication (i.e. you're not already screwed), talk about it with your wife -- she's an adult, and can tell you herself what she wants. And keep in mind that any diamond you're likely to buy had no significant value until 1938, and there's no particular reason to think that they will in 2038, so the only real value is sentimental (which in this case is up to your wife-to-be). So talk it over. If she thinks that a diamond ring is important, then it is, and you should buy her one. But treat her like an intelligent human being, and give her the chance to talk it over.

Personally, we bought a moderately sized diamond (this was before I knew just how artificial a diamond's value actually was), but more importantly, it's set in a custom ring that we designed and bought together. Instead of surprising her with a ring, we flew to Paris, and I proposed under the Arc de Triumph looking at the Eiffel Tower (after hitting the Louvre and eating an insanely fantastic dinner). She was still surprised (and had a goofy grin for weeks), and this all cost far less than the "two months salary" line DeBeers pitches, and was a lot more memorable because it represented real effort to arrange rather than simply writing a check. We designed and bought the ring a month or two later, together.

Best Form of Carbon

[Geckoman]

IANAC (I Am Not A Chemist), but...

According to a friend's chemistry professor, diamonds are a rip-off anyway. The crystaline structure of the carbon atoms in diamonds isn't the most stable form of carbon. Apparently, diamonds aren't really "forever," they're only for a few billion years. Now graphite, on the other hand, now that's forever! (Or at least a lot closer!)

So buy her some pencil lead, and maybe one of those cool, high-dollar mechanical pencils to go with it!

(Disclaimer: I assume no responsibility for any bodily harm that may result from following this advice. I, myself, am happily married, and if you tell my wife I said this, I'll deny it.)

Re:alternatives?

[squaretorus]

this is a gift for her, not you

JESUS! It never fails to amaze me how little geek guys know about women!

Every single woman I've ever been out with went week at the knees at the sight of me refusing to eat at a restaurant because of poor practice, avoiding a brand for poor ethics, or cycling to work to live 'carbon neutral'.

If you care about this stuff - and your women doesn't I dont care how nice her tits are or how often she gets them out for you - DUMP HER. She'd sure as hell get rid of you if the tables were turned, and theres another one out there with BETTER tits who shares your ethics, and cooks a better omlette - you just have to find her.

If you can shelve your ethics for sex - they weren't your ethics in the first place.

OT: how C++ does its dirty deed

[iskander]

I can't recall any children being maimed or killed over Stroustrup's C++ designs.

I agree: a lot more people are made a lot more miserable by the diamond trade than by C++. The latter is a subtle, merciful killer; it eschews violence. Freshmen simply lose the will to live about four weeks into CS101, when they learn the true meaning of inheritance and friendship: "you aren't going to get a lot of money from your parents, but you will probably get the same self-destructive behavior they had, which will probably be triggered by someone covering his ass after someone you thought was your friend tripped you up by playing with your member".

["Only friends can play with your member(s)" heard from Andy Kinley at RHIT, IIRC. Hi, Andy!]

Re:alternatives?

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally agreed, my wife and I designed our own wedding bands. Her folks donating a family heirloom 3 carat diamond (yes her hand drags across the ground, and yes we already knew diamonds are worthless, but the size of the ring is quite uncommon) seated in a suspension band (this allows it to adapt to body weight and still be able to take it off). The jeweler designed the band to allow for additional customizations, kinda of a lego ring :D

As for mine, tiny skulls side-by-side that wraps around my finger molded out of white gold. It was originally based on a cheaply made silver ring I got from OzFest'97. When I first met my wife to be, the ring broke that nite. She offer to repair it and no sooner than after i put it on, it broke. Years later when we decide to marry, she surprised me by recasting the old broken ring into something new and improved. The Jeweler made considerable number of structural improvements and left plenty of room for future customizations (ruby eyes, plenty of surface area to attach additional skulls, etc). Needless to say, I was floored by her surprise.

My point? Why buy stock jewelry at all?? treat it like open source, extend, embrace and wear =)
The uniqueness alone makes it valuable in it's own right, maybe not on the marketplace, or maybe so, but who really cares, it's the sentimental value that matters the most, regardless of cost.

What's that??? some of you are saying i'm blowing shit out my mouth cuz we were able to afford these rings, our tune would probably change if were poorer...HEH...Well remember, her folks gave us the worthless diamond, and all the customizations were under $1000 combined and that's STILL less than 2 months salary, way less,
but worth a million times more than any old piece of junk from a jewelry store.

mindrape
damaged cybernetics

love and devotion

[The Fun Guy]

I proposed to my girlfriend when we were both in college, and I had very little money. I was going to go to graduate school, and knew I wouldn't have any money for a long time. The ring was a modestly sized garnet, in a simple gold setting, $50 at Sears. Up to that time, it was probably the most money I'd every spent on jewelry.

She loved it, because of what it represented. She knew I had more prospects than money, and she was able to see the ring for what it meant, rather than what it was composed of chemically. She told me that she was glad I hadn't blown a ton of dough on a big ring I couldn't really afford, because she didn't want to start our married life in debt for something that wouldn't add to quality of life the way a car, house, blender, etc. would. Our wedding was great, our marriage has been wonderful. I would be a shabby imitation of myself if I didn't have her in my life.

She got a lot of really great reactions to the ring, surprisingly. A red stone for an engagement ring is unusual enough to be eye-catching. It's a dark red garnet, and a lot of people asked if it was a ruby. She's not ashamed of her ring, and always told them that it's a garnet, a semi-precious stone. I suppose there's a certain cache in that, a ring who's value is so purely symbolic, because she often saw women with big diamond rings in platinum settings get jealous.

We've been married 11 years, now. Our third child, a little girl, was born 8 weeks ago, and our two boys are bright, energetic, handsome kids. Our love is flourishing. As for the ring, my wife accidentally dropped it over the railing from the third tier at Wrigley Field a month after we were married, still not used to wearing it. By some miracle, we found it on the pavement outside the park; one of the prongs holding the garnet in place got bent, but the stone was OK. After a few years, the thin gold band was wearing through, and the bent prong would catch on fabric, and she had to be really careful with it. For our 5 year anniversary, I suggested we get her a higher quality ring. OK, but she wouldn't hear of replacing her garnet. We had the stone reset in a better quality band, flanked with a pair of small diamonds. We'd saved up some money, despite both of us being in graduate school at that point, and went with diamonds for an aesthic reason - they set off the garnet and made it appear even more dark and lustrous.

When I finished my PhD, and got a postdoc position, with my first salary that didn't start with a "1", I wanted to adorne my wife, to gild the lily, give her something beatuiful and extravagant and utterly impractical, to make up for the years of more practical and useful gifts. She selected small diamond stud earrings... because our new baby boy kept grabbing at the long, dangling earrings she typically wore. Sensible, even in her extravagances. What a wife.

I got a real job three years ago, and we moved and bought a house. For our 10th anniversary, we were still broke from buying the house. For our 11th anniversary, our 4-week old baby let us sleep for 6 hours straight. It was wonderful. After a few raises and promotions, I've got some money now. I suggested to my wife that we get her some more jewelry, maybe some rubies or emeralds to set off her eyes. With a kiss and a hug, she handed me a stack of brochures about savings plans for college tuition, and said that there were more important things. What a wife.

With 300+ comments already attached to this /. topic, I know nobody is going to read this. It's like those sand paintings that are created in order to celebrate what *is*, not in the expectation that they will be responded to, or become a permanat exhibit. I just wanted to declare to the world that the quality of your love is so very much more important than the chemical composition of the ring that symbolizes it.