Diamonds - Are They Really Worth the Cost?

hardDiamond asks: "I'm going to get engaged. I know my 4 C's. I know I'm going to get screwed by the jeweller, but that's okay: after all, a diamond engagement ring is a time-honoured tradition... NOT. Having checked out the goods, looked for the flaws, I found the biggest one of all. Diamond engagement rings are the creation of a well orchestrated advertising campaign for most of the last century - according to this article. Would you buy one for the love of your life? I know my girlfriend would love a diamond, but ethically I have my doubts. Diseased-miners, child slave labour, cartel inflated prices... and as if that wasn't enough, diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch. They'll sell you the shit, but damn it, they're not taking it back at any price. So what have my fellow slashdotters done with regards to engagement rings? What's a good substitute for diamonds? My girlfriend understands my thoughts regarding diamonds, but deep down, I'm sure she would like a diamond. Even a small one." I've never even thought about questioning such a time honored tradition, but now I'm curious. Have any of you looked at the issues surrounding diamonds and found them wanting? What alternatives have you found and were they acceptable? After researching this a bit, one of the key facts to surface is that 2-4.5% of diamond sales will go to finance terrorism or forms of violence. Such diamonds, for want of a better term, have been named "conflict diamonds". For those of you interested in following up on this subject, here are a few more links:

Fatal Transactions
Conflict Diamonds: Sanctions and War
The Campaign to Eliminate Conflict Diamonds
The Kimberly Process, which will attempt to track diamonds to their origin. This is to begin in November.

For those of you who have a subscription to Science News, the cover story, this month, deals with this issue as well.

Comments

The Answer

[Chester K]

Diamonds - Are They Really Worth the Cost?

Do you love her? If so, then they're worth the cost.

Re:The Answer

[electricmonk]

Thank you, Mr. DeBeers shill! So... did anybody read the article yet besides me?

Re:The Answer

[Anonymous Coward]

I had some strong issues with the whole industry myself 2 years when I decided to get engaged. But I knew that as much as my now wife agreed with me on the evils of the diamond idustry, deep down she wanted a big stone.

Bottom line (at least as far as I can see it) is that if she wants one you should get her one. Once you get it out of the way you can make room for future comprimises. I have convinced my wife that for anniversaries and such that I will get her alternatives like moseinite (sp?) and other things

Re:The Answer

[LintMan]

I agree. For a lot of women, they've wanted and dreamed of a nice engagement ring since they were kids. Getting that diamond ring is a sort of validation for some women.

Is this misplaced desire, partly formed by marketing hype and peer pressure? Yes. But so is my lust for say, a new BMW 5-series, or even the latest 2.6 GHz Pentium.

I spent a bunch on my wife's rock, which felt to me like 'wasted' money, but I have to say it's made her happy. Before you say she's all about the money though... she really isn't very materialistic at all, but getting that nice diamond really meant something to her. When the time came to spend money of other things, such as our wedding plans, or even when I ask her what she wants for a birthday gift, she is quite economical.

Beyond that, though, I also guess that over the course of our marriage, I'll probably spend ten times more on computer upgrades and other "toys" for myself (that she could care less about) as I will on jewelry for her (that I could care less about), so I guess I can't really complain! Probably it'd be the same for many other people here...I think that's something most of the techno-geeks here should keep in mind.

Re:The Answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Many things in life are a poor investment when viewed solely in monetary terms. A brand-new car, for instance, which will depreciate maybe 20-30% in its first year. (doesn't stop all you guys lusting after them, though, does it!).

Having children is a serious monetary burden, looked at solely from an investment point of view.

Going out for a restaurant meal when you could cook it yourself for less; paying thirty bucks for a bottle of wine worth maybe five bucks so you can drink it at a table at Florian's cafe in the Piazza San Marco, listening to the orchestra. I could go on, but...

The thing is, sure, some aspects of the de Beers monopoly are unpalatable, but most commodities - coffee, steel, grain - are accompanied by exploitation and other bad things.

You could consider, of course, purchasing a stone or a ring off a private buyer strapped for cash - and have the stone set in the ring of your choice by a reputable manufacturing jeweller. It's up to you - but I know, for sure, there are darn few women who don't think a diamond ring is the acme of romantic love.

Re:The Answer

[purpledinoz]

I can't believe how successful the Cartel was. Looks at us, we're enslaved by the woman's desire (engraved into them by the cartel) to have a huge expensive (but not valuable) rock! We're such tools!

Re:The Answer

[4of12]

My wife told me straight out that she didn't want a diamond engagement ring.

She simply didn't care for such a diamond ring. She generally doesn't like jewelry, but occasionally likes a few simple pieces.

Knowing what I do about the artificial market for diamonds, I was more than happy to oblige her wishes. It was simply more money for the wedding and honeymoon, which are not cheap, either.

But do go in together to pick out wedding bands.

The experience of doing that, thinking about what kind of ring you want (Au, Ti, Ag, Pt, wide or narrow, plain or decorated, what to write on the inside - please not the LotR phrase, etc.) helps cement a relationship at least as well as getting a big rock. Or, at least, if the relationship was going to go anywhere, then the mutual ring picking experience will reinforce the same relationship dynamics.

Re:The Answer

[smack.addict]

Or, how about a quote from Love and Rockets:

You cannot go against nature.
Because when you do
Go against nature
It's part of nature too

A well cut diamond is beautiful. You may think it is ugly. Fine. But there is nothing magic about your belief they are ugly just because your belief runs against the preaching of foreign diamond cartels.

The point here being that more people should quit doing what they're doing just because the rest does it too

In many cases, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this behavior. There are so many decisions in life, you often need to go with the flow to keep sane. That includes making decisions because those around you make the same ones and making decisions because they are contrary to the decisions made by those around you.

In this case, for whatever reason, his girlfriend wants the diamond. That is the only salient point in this discussion.

Re:The Answer

[andrew_0812]

I also bought my wife a diamond. She does not care much for jewelry, and she would have been happy with a small conservative diamond ring. That is fine, but I wanted to do more, so I got her a really nice ring with a big rock on it. I think that the ring sometimes helps women to "see" how important they are. After all, if you are willing to spend that much money on something as useless as jewelry, just because you love her, then...


Besides I like it when people see her ring and their eyes bug out or they comment on how nice it is. (I am sure she doesn't mind either)


Yes, diamond engagement rings may be a brilliant marketing strategy for the Cartel, but it is a strategy that has worked. Deep down we all judge ourselves based on other people. If we had talked about it, my wife would have been fine with another type of stone, or a ring without a stone, but deep down she would not have been as content as she was "with" the ring.


Conformity is a fact of life.

Re:The Answer

[ChuyMatt]

Hm... I don't know. I bought my fiance a simple band with a .5 diamond in it and that was too much. It is kind of a litmus test for the relationship to come, i think, on how much rides on the size of the rock. Although, she did ask for a grocery store ring from those little bubbles, she is... special.

Love is not a diamond ring. But but both are rather attractive.

Re:The Answer

[smack.addict]

Doesn't open and respectful communication make your partner happy?

Of course. But so does patronizing them. And that is exactly what you are suggesting.

Saying that she wants one hence she needs one to me means that you view your girlfriend as an almost non-sentient being that is incapable of abstract thought. In my own girlfriends case this would be an insult.

That's just a load of shit. Getting engaged is not a logical thing. It is an affair of the heart. You don't take your girlfriend aside and say, "I know you want a diamond, but..." followed by a litany of logical reasons why she should not want what she wants. It does not matter if you are right, and it is especially bad if you are wrong.

What she wants on this issue is right. Period. Your logic is not required. There are only two times when this is true. When you get married and when she is pregnant.

Re:The Answer

[shawnseat]

Many things in life are a poor investment when viewed solely in monetary terms. A brand-new car, for instance, which will depreciate maybe 20-30% in its first year. (doesn't stop all you guys lusting after them, though, does it!).

I certainly don't, and I think anyone who does is really stupid. "New car smell" is an amalgam of monomers from the plastic of the car's interior, many of which are carcinogenic.

Having children is a serious monetary burden, looked at solely from an investment point of view.

This is true in Western society, but not in the Orient -- there working children are expected to send 10% or more of their net income to their parents as a show of "filial piety." And it will be really helpful to have a child or children when Social Security (and other nations' equivalents) goes down the drain.

Going out for a restaurant meal when you could cook it yourself for less; paying thirty bucks for a bottle of wine worth maybe five bucks so you can drink it at a table at Florian's cafe in the Piazza San Marco, listening to the orchestra. I could go on, but...

The thing each of these has in common is the idea of exchanging your money for someone else's time. This is, after all, what money really is an attempt to quantify in the first place -- the difference between the meal in a restaurant and the one at home is the money the cooks, the servers, the dishwashers, etc. earn, depreciation on the building, and a reward for the people who made a place that you would like to visit.

The thing is, sure, some aspects of the de Beers monopoly are unpalatable,

Candidate for the Slashdot Understatement of the Year Award, 2002

but most commodities - coffee, steel, grain - are accompanied by exploitation and other bad things.

Modern capitalism is evil, news at 11. The great difference between de Beers and these is that the three listed above are actually valuable for something. Cartel diamonds, since synthetics are cheaper for drill bits, etc., are completely and totally worthless. When buying gem diamonds, you are basically paying multilevel protection fees for a publicly traded organized crime syndicate.

I know, for sure, there are darn few women who don't think a diamond ring is the acme of romantic love.

There are darn few USians who recognize there's a distinction between socialism and Soviet Communism. But that doesn't mean they're right either.

Re:The Answer

[seo]

I agree that what is most important is how your significant other feels about it and how important it is to her.

However, the whole point is that she feels that way BECAUSE we've been manipulated into putting value on something by a few very biased few. It is a "tradition" created by the greed of those that control the supply. How romantic is that...

Re:The Answer

[cloudmaster]

The BMW 5-series is a truly high-performance driving machine. For the money, there's not much else that's similarly comfortable and powerful. Personally, I'd love to have an M5 - and I've *never* seen an ad for one. I've just seen the specs and the driving reviews. :)

Not that we're talking about performance luxury cars, though...

Re:The Answer

[Tungbo]

Yes they are selling a dream.

The key is to plant and grow a BETTER dream.
By proving to my wife that diamond is NOT a 'precious' stone, I convinced her to get another stone, emerald, which IS 'precious'. This is a scientific classfication, not a sentimental one. When she realized that diamond value is only propped up by de Beer's advertising budget and monopoly practices, she had no problem switching the stone.

Mind you, I did not spend LESS money. However, we are confident that the stone will hold value much better than diamonds due to the intrinsic rarity of emeralds.

Re:The Answer

[JThaddeus]

My wife--God bless her--didn't want a diamond. She wanted an aquamarine. We picked out matching bands and then got her a 2d band to which we mounted an elliptical cut aquamarine. It's 1.25ct and, at a very pale blue, looks grand.

And it's done the job for 23+ years now...

Re:The Answer

[smack.addict]

I do have a tendency to get out of relationships where the decision making process tends to be unilateral.

Who said anything about the relationship decision-making process being unilateral? We are talking about one decision about a gift.

As long as there's TWO people that are getting married and TWO people having a baby or engaging themselves or whatever, there are to voices to be heard.

Can I be in the room when you tell a woman that "TWO people are having a baby"? It should prove quite entertaining. Yes, two people conceived the baby and two people are responsible for its upbringing, but only one of those people is going to share her body for nine months with another being and only one of those people are going to have her privates ripped apart when the being decides to be born.

With respect to the issue at hand, however, we are not talking about who is going to do the dishes tonight. We are talking about a gift being given by one for the other. As a general rule, giving a gift is not about the giver. When the issue at hand is one of the single most significant gifts of a lifetime, then really, the giver should be focused entirely on what the recipient wants and not their own petty political issues.

If my logic is not required, my counterpart can go find someone whose logic he/she DOES require. And I hope my partner thinks the same.

That is absurd reasoning on your part. Very few single decisions in any relationship are 50/50 propositions. Very few are also 100/0. Most are 60/40, 75/25, or even 90/10. Sometimes one partner is on the weighted end, sometimes the other is. An engagement ring is an example of what should be a 90/10 decision in favor of the woman. A house is an example of what should be a 50/50 decision.

Over the course of a healthy relationship, the give and take approaches 50/50. I doubt anyone is truly in a relationship that has averaged to 50/50. I am willing to bet no one has ever been in a relationship in which every decision was based on equal consideration of each partner's desires.

Or is this a remarkable view on relationships?

No, it is a terribly naive view of relationships.

alternatives?

[garcia]

There are none. The girlfriend will be bombarded w/her friends pissing her off w/the fact that she doesn't have one, and how dare her fiance not buy one for her.

My gf's brother just got engaged. His fiance announced this to my gf by saying, "here's mine, where's yours?"

Whether or not this is obnoxious is not the point. Her friends are going to do much the same.

Time honored is true, but expected is more the reality.

Re:alternatives?

[Gudlyf]

Yes, you do need to understand that this is a gift for her, not you. The question is, what does she want? Does she agree with your concerns, or are you going to just pick an alternative and hope for the best?

I may have plenty of ethical issues against the fine leather used in the new shoes my wife wants for her birthday, but it doesn't mean I'll try buying her a pair of canvas sneakers and hope she doesn't notice.

Re:alternatives?

[Wanker]

Yes, not only was it a recent advertising campaign, it was probably one of the most successful campaigns of all time. Most people really do think that diamond engagement rings are a centuries-old tradition.

With that said, you're probably screwed unless you get your fiancee's buy-in.

Re:alternatives?

[Skyshadow]

You're screwed even if you get your fiancee's buy-in.

Any time she shows her engagement ring to someone, they'll either comment on the lack of rock or react to it in some other way. Any time one of her friends gets engaged and shows her their ring, they'll have a diamond. Humans are social animals -- this *is* going to take a toll over time. It's just not worth gambling a (presumibly) good relationship to save a few grand or make a point.

This is one of those situations where trying to be smart is only going to work against you.

Re:alternatives?

[Anonymous Coward]

I may have plenty of ethical issues against the fine leather used in the new shoes my wife wants for her birthday, but it doesn't mean I'll try buying her a pair of canvas sneakers and hope she doesn't notice.

That serves your interests as well. Might as well have her walk on you with the best shoes available.

Re:alternatives?

[lingorob]

It's just not worth gambling a (presumibly) good relationship to save a few grand or make a point.

but is it worth it to save someone's life? maybe you should re-consider the relationship if your fiancee values material goods over human life.

Re:alternatives?

[Moofie]

I'd take exactly the opposite tack. If either party in the relationship is REALLY that worried about what the Joneses think, to the point that they'll be psychologically scarred by not having what everybody else has, I'd say the relationship is doomed from the get-go. A lifetime commitment to honor and cherish another human being is infinitely more precious than a hunk of clear carbon.

Talk it over with your intended. Express your feelings. Come to a consensus. Then, spit in the eye of anybody who disparages your (collective) choice.

Re:alternatives?

[Bingo Foo]

Who cares how old the tradition is? How old is the tradition of capitalizing the first letter of class names in OOP? Are you going to break that tradition? The fact is, the diamond ring has a certain meaning right now, in our lifetimes.

Re:alternatives?

[lingorob]

fair enough, i was just using the groundwork that the post to which i replied seemed to be based upon.

By your argument, I assume that you don't buy the argument that most heroin sales support terrorism (making users guilty of that)?

not too serious here, just trying to publicly consider some (potential) points

cheers

Re:alternatives?

[ergo98]

Correlating terrorism with drug sales is an absolute absurdity bit of propaganda that is so laughable that it boggles the mind. It's especially hilarious when the same administration that tries to admonish drug users perpetuates a dependency on terrorist sponsoring states.

Of course, there's nothing that says that Terrorists couldn't have shares in LNUX (we could only dream), and by reading Slashdot we're sponsoring terrorism.

Re:alternatives?

[funkhauser]

I can't recall any children being maimed or killed over Stroustrup's C++ designs.

Re:alternatives?

[lingorob]

if you mean reliance on oil-producing nations, you might be slightly off base. the current administration advocates U.S. drilling, and their public policy is to reduce our current dependance on those states for oil.

i don't think you can refute the taliban's involvement in the heroin industry. that has been detailed by sources outside the u.s. -- are you saying this is a falsehood?

correlating drug sales *in general* is ridiculous, indeed. but i think the link between *heroin* sales and terrorist groups is rather strong.

Re:alternatives?

[fishbowl]

"i don't think you can refute the taliban's involvement in the heroin industry. "

Not sure what you mean by 'refute' but one of the first things the taliban did when they took power was to crack down HARD on herion production. Opium cultivation became a capital offense under the taliban, where it was just a cash crop before.

Re:alternatives?

[dogbowl]

Thats because the Taliban grew it own for their own profit .. anybody else growing it was a captial offense.
Even though its banned in their religion, they had no problem selling it to non-muslims.

Re:alternatives?

[ergo98]

Oh, I completely agree that drug money might be used to sponsor criminal endeavers , and I completely agree that the Taliban may have made a killing with heroin (though Osama's money was the result of oil, so those plane tickets on September 11th were paid for by every person filling up at the gas pump), but blaming drug purchasers for terrorism is a ridiculous simplification. Isn't it just as reasonable to state that those sponsoring a drug prohibition are the reason that Columbian cartels and Taliban growers are reaping a windfall?

Re:alternatives?

[AndyChrist]

Drug sales support terrorism, and drug laws support drug prices. Drug dealers, drug traffickers....they don't want drugs legalized.

THE DRUG WAR SUPPORTS TERRORISM.

Re:alternatives?

[einstein]

I think what he is saying is that the same government that says "buy drugs and you support terrorism" is the one that made drugs illegal, and thus expensive on the black market. if it wasn't illegal to grow opium and process it yourself, do you really think that the Taliban would have been exporting it to the US? something to think about.
---

Re:alternatives?

[Gudlyf]

If the original poster mentioned that his fiance had a problem with diamonds much like he does, it would be a totally different story. My point is, why pick out alternatives behind her back? Maybe he's not, but he doesn't say that.

I can see how what I said comes off as a cowardly, backbone-less dweeb, but that's because I did a poor job getting my point across. The ultimate answer to his question is to talk about it with her, not a bunch of us nerds!

Re:alternatives?

[rodgerd]

I know it's fashionable to dislike the Taliban, but do you think you could manage facts instead of doublethink?

The only opium that came out of Afganistan during Taliban rule was from that of the (current US allies) forces who opposed them.

Re:alternatives?

[BollocksToThis]

Who the fuck do these bitches think they are?

Well, apparently, they're the materialistic small-minded bitches who would marry someone for the financial security they could provide. OF COURSE they're going to want something ridiculously expensive and pointless - it establishes the way things are to go from that point on.

Sorry, I do know you were joking...

Re:alternatives?

[jyoull]

That's the beauty of this "tradition"... it was invented DURING THIS CENTURY by DeBeers... not much of a tradition if you ask me, about the same as Secretary's Day and Sweetest Day.

Re:alternatives?

[rmohr02]

And it made us believe diamonds are rare--so we horde them, and make them rare.

Re:alternatives?

[Jamie Zawinski]

correlating drug sales *in general* is ridiculous, indeed. but i think the link between *heroin* sales and terrorist groups is rather strong.

The link between heroin sales and the CIA is also very strong. So by buying smack, you're supporting the national defense!

Re:alternatives?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right, it comes down to what she wants. Keep in mind that the "surprise" diamond engagement ring was invented by DeBeers (who paid for for the placement of said surprises in movies) specifically because their research showed that when the man asked the woman what she wanted, she almost _always_ preferred the man to spend the money on something practical like a down payment on a house or a car. Only by making men believe that women wanted a diamond ring, and didn't want to be asked about it, could they convince men to spend several months' salary on something the woman didn't actually want, and embarrass the woman into not admitting to that fact.

So if you want to donate money do DeBeers (hint: they don't need any more) go ahead and surprise your wife with a diamond ring. But if you have a relationship of trust and communication (i.e. you're not already screwed), talk about it with your wife -- she's an adult, and can tell you herself what she wants. And keep in mind that any diamond you're likely to buy had no significant value until 1938, and there's no particular reason to think that they will in 2038, so the only real value is sentimental (which in this case is up to your wife-to-be). So talk it over. If she thinks that a diamond ring is important, then it is, and you should buy her one. But treat her like an intelligent human being, and give her the chance to talk it over.

Personally, we bought a moderately sized diamond (this was before I knew just how artificial a diamond's value actually was), but more importantly, it's set in a custom ring that we designed and bought together. Instead of surprising her with a ring, we flew to Paris, and I proposed under the Arc de Triumph looking at the Eiffel Tower (after hitting the Louvre and eating an insanely fantastic dinner). She was still surprised (and had a goofy grin for weeks), and this all cost far less than the "two months salary" line DeBeers pitches, and was a lot more memorable because it represented real effort to arrange rather than simply writing a check. We designed and bought the ring a month or two later, together.

Re:alternatives?

[EvilAlien]

Let us all know how this works out for you in the long run.. many would argue that long term relationships are ALWAYS doomed from the get go just due to biology, so your mileage may vary with your idealism.

That being said, I just got engaged, and I bought a diamond. It was something I wanted to do, and didn't question the "ethics" of it. I did it for love, and to express that love and the commitment that goes with it. I'm also pretty clueful in the psychology of our species, and I can tell you that any relationship would be jeoprodized by the tact you suggest. Sad to say, but it is... we're not perfectly rational beings, and if you truly believe we are, lets get together and talk over some business ideas of mine you might want to invest in *grin*

Re:alternatives?

[Moofie]

Well, your psychology might work on statistically significant samples...but fortunately I'm not dating statistically significant samples. I'm dating ONE woman, who respects me, and I respect her. We listen to one another. We're a) not hung up on what other people think and b) hang out with people who would never countenance the sort of judgements you seem to think are so important to our continuation as a species.

In other words, have at it. You can do whatever you want with your relationship. But if you want to tell me that my relationship is doomed because of biology or our principles, well...you best not let my girl hear you. She'll whip your ass.

Re:alternatives?

[eltardo]

I'm having trouble actually believing some of the stuff I see posted here. What does she want? What will her friends say? Who the fuck cares!? What do all the people getting fucked over for that diamond want? Shouldn't they get what they want too? I'm really almost speechless...this blows my mind. WOW...Wow...wow.

Re:alternatives?

[3.2.3]

With that said, you're probably screwed unless you get your fiancee's buy-in.

does it occur to anyone that it's the fiancee that's maybe screwing herself?

why would a sane person marry someone with these values?

if she realizes the case against it, as severely life punishing in real terms as it is, and still wants the diamond, you have to question whether this is someone to chain yourself to for the rest of your life, or worse, to possibly involve in raising kids.

the idea that she should be embarrassed with the ring is rot. plenty of women eschew the faux custom for the right reasons stated and no one much bothers them about it. anyone who does bother them about it can pretty well be ignored or educated.

there are other things to make rings out of other than diamonds, you know.

freud was right. war is sublimated libido.

this is creepy. yeah, my gal wants a lampshade made of human skin to make her feel like she fits in with her peers. should i get it for her? it would mean an awful lot.

the only thing more contemptible than the woman who wants a diamond ring in the man who would get it for her. wise up.

actually, i have to believe that anyone who posts as much information about the case against diamonds as antistatickid must already understand this and is just trolling.

Re:alternatives?

[Prior Restraint]

...it was invented DURING THIS CENTURY...

Um, dude, this century started last year.

Re:alternatives?

[Xacid]

I think the only reason it's questioned here is because of functionality. Computers actually *do* something somewhat useful. Shoes tend to be something I enjoy others wearing, especially when you know their feet have to stink (yeah, a stretch but it's just a weird thing I have about people no wearing shoes and then mysteriously smelling bad smells). As for jewelry...I feel it's useless. It's just something to make someone feel pretty, wealthy or just lucky to have suckered some poor guy into buying it. I don't think I could honestly marry someone if they didn't understand that I didnt want to buy them ANY jewelry whatsoever at my own expense.

Re:alternatives?

[einhverfr]

Ethics are not on the list of things that may take part in compromise during your marriage.

Completely agree. If you start compromising on your ethics, it will lead to real problems, especially if your significant other finds out. Compromise anything that is not important to you for anything that is important for her-- win-win not win-lose as much as possible.

Wow-- people ask advice on /. for their love life? One would think that with such a popular topic, either it means that everyone is happy or that everyone is trying to hide the fact that they are not.

Re:alternatives?

[pediddle]

plop

That's the sound of your girlfriend dumping you onto the street.

Re:alternatives?

[MrGrendel]

I broke the tradition. I told my wife, before we were engaged, that I would never spend money on diamonds under any circumstances (and I haven't in over 7 years). Any woman worth marrying will respect you for holding to your ethical principles rather than blindly following social convention. If she throws a fit and pressures you to buy a diamond despite your ethical concerns, she neither loves nor respects you and should be dumped on the spot. If anyone gives her a hard time about it, they can simply be told that no chunk of polished carbon is worth an African child's arms. No one will ever bring the subject up again (I'm speaking out of personal experience).

Abandoning your morals to follow pointless traditions is not an act of love, but an act of sheer cowardice.

Re:alternatives?

[websaber]

Cubic zirconia should work fine considering that the average marriage lasts six years you should have plenty of time.

Re:alternatives?

[Moofie]

Works well for my parents. And my girlfriend's parents. And the parents of my best friends.

Maybe you're just associating with the wrong people.

Re:alternatives?

[Moofie]

What is the value in a tradition? Why is it Good to do things a certain way just because that's the way it's done?

Especially after reading the article (you did read the article, right?) about how this "tradition" was FABRICATED by the people who profit from diamond sales, how can you POSSIBLY argue that the tradition has any value at all?

I tell you what. If I were dating a girl who read that article and didn't turn to me and say "Never buy me a diamond!" I'd have to evaluate that relationship /very/ closely.

Re:alternatives?

[DEBEDb]

s/jewelry/art/

Re:alternatives?

[DEBEDb]

What is the value in a tradition? Why is it Good to do things a certain way just because that's the way it's done?

Take it a bit further. Why get married at all? It's just a tradition.

Re:alternatives?

[squaretorus]

this is a gift for her, not you

JESUS! It never fails to amaze me how little geek guys know about women!

Every single woman I've ever been out with went week at the knees at the sight of me refusing to eat at a restaurant because of poor practice, avoiding a brand for poor ethics, or cycling to work to live 'carbon neutral'.

If you care about this stuff - and your women doesn't I dont care how nice her tits are or how often she gets them out for you - DUMP HER. She'd sure as hell get rid of you if the tables were turned, and theres another one out there with BETTER tits who shares your ethics, and cooks a better omlette - you just have to find her.

If you can shelve your ethics for sex - they weren't your ethics in the first place.

Re:alternatives?

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally agreed, my wife and I designed our own wedding bands. Her folks donating a family heirloom 3 carat diamond (yes her hand drags across the ground, and yes we already knew diamonds are worthless, but the size of the ring is quite uncommon) seated in a suspension band (this allows it to adapt to body weight and still be able to take it off). The jeweler designed the band to allow for additional customizations, kinda of a lego ring :D

As for mine, tiny skulls side-by-side that wraps around my finger molded out of white gold. It was originally based on a cheaply made silver ring I got from OzFest'97. When I first met my wife to be, the ring broke that nite. She offer to repair it and no sooner than after i put it on, it broke. Years later when we decide to marry, she surprised me by recasting the old broken ring into something new and improved. The Jeweler made considerable number of structural improvements and left plenty of room for future customizations (ruby eyes, plenty of surface area to attach additional skulls, etc). Needless to say, I was floored by her surprise.

My point? Why buy stock jewelry at all?? treat it like open source, extend, embrace and wear =)
The uniqueness alone makes it valuable in it's own right, maybe not on the marketplace, or maybe so, but who really cares, it's the sentimental value that matters the most, regardless of cost.

What's that??? some of you are saying i'm blowing shit out my mouth cuz we were able to afford these rings, our tune would probably change if were poorer...HEH...Well remember, her folks gave us the worthless diamond, and all the customizations were under $1000 combined and that's STILL less than 2 months salary, way less,
but worth a million times more than any old piece of junk from a jewelry store.

mindrape
damaged cybernetics

Re:alternatives?

[CProgrammer98]

I'm also pretty clueful in the psychology of our species, and I can tell you that any relationship would be jeoprodized by the tact you suggest.

Aha.... I'm not married to a stereotypical woman. We've survived 21 years of marriage without a diamond ring, therefore yiour theory is wrong. Perhaps if you changed the word "any" to "some" it would be ok.

Re:alternatives?

[CProgrammer98]

That depends on your belief system. If you happen to follow teachings of the Old Testament, then marriage is commanded if you want to enjoy female pleasures :)

If you don't then yeas, you're right, it's tradition.

Re:alternatives?

[RupW]

Abandoning your morals to follow pointless traditions is not an act of love, but an act of sheer cowardice.

No, it's forcing *your* opinion on her.

If she felt as strongly as you do, she might not want to wear a diamond. But that's her decision.

If you try to tell an intelligent girl how she should think then you're going to have problems.

Approach the subject in a subtle, sensitive way: you might find she agrees with you! But do be willing to back down.

Re:alternatives?

[sckeener]

Gosh, I feel special.

I got my wife a Honda CRV for an engagement ring and every other woman she tells that too thinks she got the better end of the deal.

For the wedding rings, I had a platinum band etched with a simple floral pattern (based on a symbol my wife loves.) I had it made outside the US which cut the price in half.

Re:alternatives?

[SubtleNuance]

The fact is, the diamond ring has a certain meaning right now, in our lifetimes.

Yes, but this discussion shows that the value is relative. Further, understanding the origin of this act provides context - meaning. I dont know about you, but I make few decisions lightly.

This conversation is timely and relevant for myself. I have been living with my significant other for nearly 3 years. We have been together for nearly 5 (and more-longstory). I dont want to get married. I dont want to buy a ring (for all the reasons mentioned above and more (sheer materialism, priorities, unnecessary consumption, environmental concerns) ect. I like to tread lightly. I do what i can to make wise, well argued decisions. Trying to explain this to friends, family and strangers is no simple task - Ive gotten my share of strange looks, polite nods and arguments from those who blindingly adhere to the status-quo.

The way i see it is like this: Tradition has little value. I am an independent consciousness in this world - Every act I make or do not make must have reason. Every act has consequences, so, there must be motivation.

If I had been left to my own devices, If we had met on another planet of humans, would their traditional Monogamy Ceremony(TM) looked like a wedding? Would they live for 2 months apart, fasting, instead of exchanging rings? What would they do? What would We choose to do . And thats what we are doing. We are not going to fall in the trap of living in the unconscious group-think with the rest of the pack.

Personally, I look at brides-to-be and whenever i see them flaunting their ring i feel sick, here is a person rudderless and out of control in the world.

Re:alternatives?

[SWestrup]

I was lucky that it worked the other way around for me. I would have been willing to get my wife a diamond, but she's the activist in the house, and would have hated to wear anything that was as exploitively gained as a real diamond.

She did admit that she wouldn't mind wearing a synthetic diamond, provided it came with some sort of certificate of non-authenticity.

In the end we simply skipped the engagement ring and just told everyone we were getting married. Worked just fine.

Re:alternatives?

[stux]

They're not though, you see :)

De Beers just wants your to believe that

Re:alternatives?

[Gudlyf]

This post does SO much a better job saying what I wish I said. I have to remember the crowd I'm talking to.

Re:alternatives?

[Fiver-rah]

If you can shelve your ethics for sex - they weren't your ethics in the first place.

Bingo! And if you're shelving your ethics for sex--guess what? It's not really love, so why are you spending two months salary again?

Re:alternatives?

[William Tanksley]

Why do you say tradition has little value?

Why do you think that all people who flaunt rings are rudderless and out of control?

-Billy

Re:alternatives?

[falzer]

Diamonds are only free if your time isn't worth anything.

Re:alternatives?

[ChuyMatt]

*Ting!*

That is the sound of him getting on with his life after being dumped by a materialistic bitch.

love/communication before trinkets.

Re:alternatives?

[ckaminski]

No, he wasn't telling her she couldn't WEAR diamonds... just that he wasn't buying them. If she can't respect that, too bad.

But yes, I agree that the sensitive, subtle way is best, but if he truly values "African children" over crystallized carbon, then he shouldn't back down...

Nor should she if she wants to wear that 200 carat necklace.

Re:alternatives?

[MrGrendel]

No, it's forcing *your* opinion on her. If she felt as strongly as you do, she might not want to wear a diamond. But that's her decision.

How is refusing to buy a particular product for someone else as a gift forcing my opinion on them? If her opinion is different and she still wants a diamond, she can buy one herself and wear it as often as she wishes. If you abandon your moral principles because a woman disagrees with you and really wants that rock, then you are a weak willed coward. Some people are willing to die rather than break with their principles (that phenomenon is the basis for more than one major religion). Risking the offense of a potential mate is trivial compared to that. Avoiding death is understandable, avoiding the discomfort of breaking with tradition is not.

Approach the subject in a subtle, sensitive way: you might find she agrees with you! But do be willing to back down.

Why be subtle? Don't beat around the bush, state your opinion and stick to it. Women are not delicate flowers who need to be protected from the thoughts of others. Any reasonably intelligent woman understands that you have opionions that may differ from her own. She will respect you for stating them plainly and not treating her like a fragile moron. And back down because she disagrees? How can you have any self respect with an attitude like that? How can you expect anyone else to respect you? I will no more back down on a moral principle than I will ask permission from my wife to use the toilet. Any woman who expects to be in control of my mind and my actions is no woman for me.

Re:alternatives?

[Drizzten]

I know it's fashionable to dislike the Taliban...

This makes it sound as if you believe that dislike is inappropriate. Is it wrong to dislike such a repressive and viciously un-democratic theocracy?

Re:alternatives?

[rodgerd]

Nothing, as such (although various US government agencies were fairly enthusiastic about them a few years back). But disliking an organisation because they have a bad track record is one thing. Disliking an organisation and then attributing everything bad that happens in the world to them is just nonsense.

Re:alternatives?

[EvilAlien]

Jeoprodized does not necessitate failure, it only implies that extra challenges are introduced, which means the theory, although quite possibly (and likely) flawed, is not invalidated by your point alone. I semi-intentionally overstated the point, and I admit that.

Re:alternatives?

[Sibelius]

"No, no, you've got it backwards: It is better to live on your feet, than die on your knees." -- Nately's Whore's Pimp, the Old Italin Man, from "Catch-22" by Joseph Heller

Re:alternatives?

[EvilAlien]

Fair enough, point taken.

As far as what I think is important to the continuation of our species, you are putting words in my mouth. I don't think a diamond is anywhere CLOSE to important to the continuation of our species, nor do I mean to imply that the acceptance of such traditions are important in any way. All I'm saying is that it is considered important by mainstream western society. Its quite possible to buck that trend, and even change the tradition over time. I don't doubt that one day there will be a new one.

It deserves to be noted that sweeping generalizations, although usually true in most cases, are pretty useless for predicting individual cases such as yours. Still, let us know how that works out for you... hehe. It would be interesting to know, long term (not that anyone will care 50 years down the road) whether you are as outside "societal norms" as you think you are.

Blah blah blah... this is a pretty bogus discussion anyways, its not like the tradition really matters in and of itself, and that was part of the point I was making. Screw tradition, just be ready for the consequences from those who hold on for tradition's sake.

Re:alternatives?

[Sibelius]

Yes! Haha, you're cool man. I'm gonna visit DNA the next time I'm in SF.

Re:alternatives?

[mpe]

Keep in mind that the "surprise" diamond engagement ring was invented by DeBeers (who paid for for the placement of said surprises in movies) specifically because their research showed that when the man asked the woman what she wanted, she almost _always_ preferred the man to spend the money on something practical like a down payment on a house or a car. Only by making men believe that women wanted a diamond ring, and didn't want to be asked about it, could they convince men to spend several months' salary on something the woman didn't actually want, and embarrass the woman into not admitting to that fact.

DeBeers also worked hard to create the idea of "a diamond is forever". For the reason that a second hand diamond market would kill their whole business.

Re:alternatives?

[Anonymous Conrad]

"Yes, Darling, I respect your opinion not to buy diamonds. Thank you for crushing my teenage Prince Charming dreams and the engagement fantasies I've fallen asleep to for the last two months.

"I appreciate that you're doing it to stop exploitation of little children in the third world. That doesn't bother you when you buy jeans, or brand name clothes, or shoes, or when you play football/soccer/basketball. I've seen you eat at McDonalds. I've even seen you drink Coca-Cola (or whatever the current corporate hate fad is). I guess if you didn't wear what you do then you wouldn't be quite so cool and easy-going but I'm troubled by your hypocrisy over diamonds, and I've got this niggling doubt that it's because you'd be spending money on me. I hope that isn't so - I don't want to think of you as cheap!

"After all, 4% of diamonds fund terrorism! That means that you've got a twenty-four out of twenty-five chance of not buying a bad diamond! I know you're not exactly Mr. Life-On-The-Edge, but can you really not take those odds to make me happy? What are the odds we've been funding some small part of the Mafia every time when we eat Italian?

"And I admire you taking a stand, but it worries me that you have some ridiculous sense of self-importance: that you're single handedly going to change the world! Is this marriage to be completely one-sided? We're not identical - to make this relationship work, we'll each have to compromise from time to time... can't you see that? I don't want to think of you as self-righteous, dull, hypocritical and cheap."

Re:alternatives?

[MrGrendel]

Irrelevant, irrelevant, and irrelevant. Here's the first problem:

"Yes, Darling, I respect your opinion not to buy diamonds. Thank you for crushing my teenage Prince Charming dreams and the engagement fantasies I've fallen asleep to for the last two months.

That has 'manipulative gold-digger' written all over it. This conversation could never take place in real life because I would never consider marrying a woman like that. Neither of us would make it through the first date -- we would repel each other immediately.

"I appreciate that you're doing it to stop exploitation of little children in the third world.

I don't know where you get this. I never mentioned the reasons that I will not personally buy diamonds. More importantly, this does not even address the point of discussion. Here is the point of my argument since you don't appear to have grasped it: A person who believes that buying diamonds is morally wrong should not buy diamonds even if there is a social expectation that he should. You can substitute any activity for buying diamonds and the conclusion of the argument remains the same. The reasons for opposing activity X are simply not important.

That doesn't bother you when you buy jeans, or brand name clothes, or shoes, or when you play football/soccer/basketball. I've seen you eat at McDonalds. I've even seen you drink Coca-Cola (or whatever the current corporate hate fad is).

I drink coke (and other soft drinks) but I don't do any of the other stuff. The reasons are not even remotely related to my reasons for not buying diamonds. A blatant red herring.

I guess if you didn't wear what you do then you wouldn't be quite so cool and easy-going but I'm troubled by your hypocrisy over diamonds, and I've got this niggling doubt that it's because you'd be spending money on me.

There is no danger of anyone mistaking me as being "cool." I may or may not be easy going, but I fail to see what that has to do with my clothes. And if you want to insult someone, you should at least be able to use the correct words. No hypocrisy has taken place -- I have stated that I beleive it is wrong to buy diamonds, and I don't buy them. Hypocrisy requires a difference between public declarations and private behavior. If I say that I'm opposed to buying diamonds and then I buy shoes made buy chinese slave laborers, I'm still not a hypocrite: I never stated my reasons for opposing diamond-buying. Even if slave labor does have something to do with opposing diamonds, failing to oppose slave labor shoes only makes me inconsistent with my reasoning. Hypocrisy is not a synonym for inconsistent reasoning. If I said that I'm opposed to buying products from any company that exploits people in any way and then went on to buy chinese shoes while making a big deal about not buying diamonds, then I would be a hypocrite. But I never said anything close to that. Your big problem here is that you do not know how to use language. You committed two major logical fallicies and one linguistic error all in one sentence. Impressive. But you do seem to have the gold-digging attitude down pat.

"After all, 4% of diamonds fund terrorism! That means that you've got a twenty-four out of twenty-five chance of not buying a bad diamond! I know you're not exactly Mr. Life-On-The-Edge, but can you really not take those odds to make me happy? What are the odds we've been funding some small part of the Mafia every time when we eat Italian?

More red herrings. And stinky ones at that. Are you ever going to provide a counter argument, or are you just going to pose rhetorical questions and cite pointless statistics? Why should I do something that I believe is fundamentally unethical? That's the question you should be answering, but you're not even close.

"And I admire you taking a stand, but it worries me that you have some ridiculous sense of self-importance: that you're single handedly going to change the world!

Whoah! Back up the truck! Who said anything about changing the world? Not me! The discussion is about ethics and personal behavior, not political activism. Very few theories of ethics have anything at all to do with changing the world at large. Ethics is about personal behavior and reasoning about morality. Whether or not ethical behavior has a noticable effect on the outside world is not important. Right is right regardless of what anyone else chooses to do. The most interesting (and disturbing) thing that this and other comments reveals is your own approach to ethics. You give yourself two responses to an ethical dilema: absolute perfection or inaction when perfection is impossible. This leads to alternating periods of apathy and wrong-headed attempts to force the world to conform to your oppinions. If you can't stop evil, then you don't even bother with trying to do the right thing yourself. If everyone else is misbehaving, why not just join in the party? Anything else is futile.

Is this marriage to be completely one-sided? We're not identical - to make this relationship work, we'll each have to compromise from time to time... can't you see that?

I don't need marital advise -- I'm doing just fine already. The most important factor in a good marriage is mutual respect. A large part of that is respecting your partner's right of conscience: the principle that no one should be forced or coerced into taking actions that they believe are fundamentally wrong. Pacifists should not be forced to kill, anti-abortionists should not be forced to perform abortions, priests should not be forced to reveal confessions, jews should not be forced to eat pork. The list goes on and on. Respecting that right should trump all else in a good marriage. A marriage that begins with the conversation you posted will be over within a year. One partner trivializes the beliefs of the other, questions motives, and places juvinile, materialistic fantasies above the the other's desire to follow his principles. And it still does not respond to my argument.

Hmmm...

[antirename]

Are you SURE that you're not just trying to weasel out of the ring ? :) While you do have some valid concerns, it is a tradition. Traditions don't have to make sense... that's why they're traditions. Plus, your fiance might wonder if you DON'T give her one. Just cough up the cash and best of luck to you both.

Re:Hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

A diamond ring for an engagement was a tradition started by Hollywood movies. It was briefly mentioned in the Nova TV show Diamond Deception

Re:Hmmm...

[Dalcius]

I hope this isn't too redundant, I haven't browsed everything...

No, it is NOT a tradition. It's only been going on for 1-2 generations, which I would not consider a "tradition." The marketing of and social outlook on diamonds would have you think otherwise, though...

Re:Hmmm...

[AvitarX]

Funny, I have family traditions that are well under half a century, but be damned if they are missed. There is no age on a tradition, it is a matter of if it is a tradition or not.

Of course if you feel it truly is a bad tradition, you should break it. We don't sacrifice virgins to feed our crops anymore, no nead to sacrifice poor mine workers who see probably well under 5% of that money either.

My dad almost got my stepmom a non diamond ring (the kind of stone that reflects a star instead). But deicided the time wasn't right, and gave it to her as a birthday present instead. When they did get engaged it was a diamond ring she received (probably a life saver on his part too).

Re:Hmmm...

[bobgoatcheese]

"Traditions don't have to make sense... that's why they're traditions."

Yes, but traditions can, and often tend to be, just plain stupid. Read The Lottery by Shirley Jackson, it's rather thought provoking for a high school level short story.

Re:Hmmm...

[Prior Restraint]

"It would be wrong to say that we cannot learn from tradition, but to be practical, we must not let it be an all-encompassing authority."

--Ed Parker's Infinite Insights into Kenpo Volume 2: Physical Analyzation I

Re:Hmmm...

[MrGrendel]

Traditions don't have to make sense, but any self-respecting human being with a brain should. Your actions should be governed by reason, not the whims of a mindless herd. Sometimes following a tradition is reasonable because it's harmless and not following the tradition puts you in danger (the tradition of wearing clothes in public falls into this category). But if you believe that a tradition is immoral, there is simply no excuse for giving in and doing it yourself.

I can't think of a single historical figure who is respected for being really good at following traditions. In most cases, the people we respect the most are the ones who were the worst at following tradition, and they usually suffered because of it. How can we respect people like that and then turn around and refuse to think for ourselves?

Re:Hmmm...

[Rip!ey]

Are you SURE that you're not just trying to weasel out of the ring ? :) While you do have some valid concerns, it is a tradition. Traditions don't have to make sense... that's why they're traditions.

I once read a short story called "One Legged Island" that would be relevant here. It's a take on the idea of 'traditions'.

Tell me, if it was 'tradition' that a guy was castrated when he was married (yeah, some would say it happens anyay) would you happily allow it?

After all, it a tradition. It's not like it has to make sense or anything ...

Re:Hmmm...

[aonaran]

This whole thread amazes me, is it really that engrained in people's minds that an engagement ring not only needs to be a diamond, but also a total surprise?

The better answer (and the most obvious one it seems to me) is to ask her what SHE thinks.

Maybe I'm just wierd, but surely she'd have an opinion one way or the other, and might just apprecaiate that you recognized that she has opinions and asked her.

Re:Hmmm...

[antirename]

The way this thread went surprised me too... I went from kidding with him to wishing him and his fiance well and somehow it evolved into a "who enslaved who" thing. Go figure... that's what I get for posting early :)

Opals

[atrus]

Opals are always a nice stone and do have a decent resale value. Of course they're rather hard to find in the US.

Re:Opals

[turman81]

I always liked the idea of an alternative stone. My mother actually does not like diamonds, so her engagment ring is a modest emerald set in platinum. I have always liked the blue of a saphire myself. What about getting a pre-owned (for lack of a better word) diamond from an estate sale or some such thing? You could probably get a decent discount, and the resale depreciation wouldn't be quite as big a deal.

Re:Opals

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

And they're traditionally considered bad luck for romantic purposes because of their changeability.

www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/diamonds.shtml describes progress in making gem-quality diamond (yes, it's diamond, crystallized carbon in the right structure).

There's always rubies. Giving jewelry of some kind is a tradition that pre-dates DeBeers's marketing campaign.

Re:Opals

[Phronesis]

Opals are very fragile, so they're not practical to weak around every day, as diamonds are --- they tend to chip and fall apart.

Re:Opals

[plugger]

The pre-owned idea is good. If you go for a genuine antique, it doesn't even have to be seen as a cheap option.

My fiance wears her grandmother's (diamond) engagement ring.

Re:Opals

[rodgerd]

If you're the kind of person prepared to spend two months' salary on an engagement ring, you could probably fly to Australia, see them being pulled out of the mines, take a holiday in Melbourne or Syndey while you get one fashioned into a custom-designed ring, and fly home, all without blowing the budget.

(Honestly, does anyone really do that two months salary nonsene?! It would have meant my ring cost as much as the wedding!)

Re:Opals

[fishbowl]

The "two months salary" represents only the DOWN PAYMENT on the ring. And that's gross salary, mind you.

Re:Opals

[dragonsister]

The majority of the world's opals are mined in Australia ... and for the two months salary people keep mentioning for the diamond ring, you could fly out here, have a beaut holiday, and go home with a half-centimetre piece of eyecatchingly beautiful opal in a setting of your choice.

Most clear stones, to my mind, can be nicely mimicked with some paste. Lots of stuff glitters and shines. Opals, now - they have colour and depth, considerable variation in clarity, colour strength, etc etc; I told my beloved that if he really wanted to get me a stone, it should be a crystal opal with good colour and variation. (That's the sort of opal that can go into hot soapy water without damage. Doublet or Triplet opal, by contrast, has one (or two) layer of clear material glued to a layer of opal, and if you mistreat it the glue will fog up so that you can't see the opal.)

(I also told my beloved that since I so rarely wear any jewellery, and am a very practical creature, a plain gold band was likely to be best. And he told me we'd go buy a ring together after I submitted my PhD ... now that's encouragement! )

What little jewellery I do have is dominated by opals. From AUS$10 rings (and you can get stuff with opal chips for AUS$5 or less; little opal goes to waste!) to an AUS$200 pendant of doublet opal, half-centimetre, good colour - well, that's what I like. Who needs diamonds?

If you know your future wife has, deep down, absorbed the diamond hype (and after 60 years it becomes culture, more than hype, for all the artificial origins), a possible compromise would be a setting involving some small diamonds and another stone. Mind you - you still have to ask where *they* came from. (And ask where the tantalum in your mobile phone comes from. And your oil. There's a nasty world out there, and the wars cluster around the resource-rich places; especially those with small valuable resources.) See what she thinks (there are, after all, other ways to surprise) - and I wish you good luck and a long, happy life together!

Rachel

Re:Opals

[Ryan Hemage]

And they're traditionally considered bad luck for romantic purposes because of their changeability.

Bugger, my wife has opals in her engagement ring. Still, it's an antique, so hopefully that accounts for the changeability.

Well, she chose it herself. A lot less hassle that way. And at least you know the bloody thing is going to fit. :-)

Re:Opals

[The Fun Guy]

However, their is a wide-spread superstition that opals are bad luck unless surrounded by diamonds.

I kid you not.

Also, opals are pretty fragile, sensitive to shocks and rapid temperature changes. They crack easily.

Re:Opals

[agentmunchkin]

Opals aren't ideal for everyday wearing since they are so soft and tend to scratch and break easily.

Re:Opals

[hether]

But the problem with opals is that they're a soft stone, and more easily ruined.

You know, it's just too easy

[RaboKrabekian]

Slashdot readers?

Girlfriends?

Marriage?

This has to be some sort of hoax. Is it April already?

Re:You know, it's just too easy

[alexburke]

This has to be some sort of hoax. Is it April already?

I just told her that she'll be on in 7 and a half.

Months, that is...

(Sorry.)

Re:You know, it's just too easy

[nutznboltz]

It is freaky to see them grow up and get married but it happens. Click here and scroll down to The Permanent Traveling Julia Roadshow.

Re:You know, it's just too easy

[MAXOMENOS]

It's not April Fool's. It's horrifyingly real. Even I'm getting dates.

Just wait for five years until the Slashdot generation starts having kids. You'll be seeing stories about baby formulae and disposable diapers.

Re:You know, it's just too easy

[spblat]

Could be an interesting Slashdot poll:

I have:

• 
  
• No kids
  
• 1 kid
  
• 2 kids
  
• more than 2 kids
  
• not sure
  
• Promised my firstborn to Roblimo
  

DeBeers: the *other* white monopoly.

Re:You know, it's just too easy

[nzAnon]

I too am recently married, and one thing went though my mind when i read your post, "Holy crap, this is my peer group"
The horror, the horror...

Re:You know, it's just too easy

[mesocyclone]

What's this slashdot generation nonsense? My daughter is 24 and I'm a slashdotter!! (No, I won't give you her phone number :-)

Re:You know, it's just too easy

[stevey]

Email address only, right? ;)

Re:You know, it's just too easy

[President Chimp Toe]

Trust me, you dont want her email adress:

From his website

Re:You know, it's just too easy

[EvilTwinSkippy]

5 Years.

Shit, we are starting next year.

Re:You know, it's just too easy

[goodvilhunting]

I once tried to impress a woman by gifting her one year subscription to "Linux Journal". It didn't impress her at all

Re:You know, it's just too easy

[acb]

And then we'll see a new generation of severely autistic children, the product of all those recessive autism genes combining.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2192611.stm

Re:You know, it's just too easy

[AnalogDiehard]

You are in a room with three very horny women. Any of them would marry you in a second. You reach in your pocket and only have two diamond rings...

It's your (future) wife.

[Patik]

A proposal means you're asking her to dedicate the rest of her life to you, and yours to her. Give her what she really, really wants (a diamond). An engagement is a once-in-a-lifetime event; save your consumer ethics for more trivial occasions (anniversaries, Christmas, etc).

Re:It's your (future) wife.

[Dalcius]

I suppose what it comes down to is what kind of woman she is. Personally, I cannot stand people who go with the "social norm," and I have a feeling that that special someone (when I finally meet her... *sigh*) will feel the same way.

I would rather give my future wife something that had thought and some form of originality in it signifying my love instead of giving her something society expects. A ring is traditional (for all I know, anyway), but a diamond isn't (it hasn't been a "tradition" for long at all).

What is more important: a diamond that is expected by the lemmings in society or something that the husband feels is appropriate to symbolize his love?

Re:It's your (future) wife.

[ChadN]

An engagement is a once-in-a-lifetime event

Well, a once-in-a-relationship event. Usually.

Re:It's your (future) wife.

[limekiller4]

I really, really, really have to express much disagreement with this classification of the author's hesitancy to contribute to child labor and murder as "trivial." I understand your point, in principal (pick your battles), and I realize that this is not trivial on her end, but if there is a better thing to stick up for, I can't think of one.

Re:It's your (future) wife.

[Wavicle]

I have an idea...

Take a trip with your prospective wife-to-be who really wants a diamond:

1) Go to new york. Find a widowed mother raising an infant girl and say to the woman "Gee, I'm sorry your husband was crushed under 40 floors of steel and concrete trying to rescue people from the world trade center, I think it's just terrible... But I *really* want a diamond enough that I'm willing to give Osama $80."

2) Go to a nice south african country embroiled in a bitter and savage civil war. Find a young amputee and have your wife-to-be say "Gee I'm sorry that marauding rebels came through here, held you down while you cried and pleaded for them not to hurt you then severed your right leg above the knee - so that your parents would not fear them enough to mine diamonds for them. But I *really* want a diamond, and hey at least you didn't die from infection!"

3) Go find a young girl who was ordered raped by an organized crime syndicate because her father, a jewelry store owner, wasn't buying russian diamonds. Have your wife say "Golly, I bet that really was embarrassing to be immodestly exposed in front of those guys, but I *really* want a diamond, and therapy can make you better!"

I could go on... Believe me when you tell your girl this she's going to give the denial thing "You don't know that somebody paid a terrible inhuman price for *that* particular diamond". The truth is, the demand for diamonds did. And while she has the need to go to her girlfriends and say "See how much he loves me? Look at how big this diamond is!" she's going to turn a blind eye to her culpability in an industry whose savage and brutality is second perhaps only to the drug cartels.

If she still wants a diamond... Is this really the woman you want?

Re:It's your (future) wife.

[amitola]

The vast majority of opinions here seem to be amazingly childish.

Someone has finally called attention to the fact that the diamond engagement ring "tradition" and their high cost was entirely fabricated by a tiny group of wealthy persons, in order that they might become more wealthy.

As the poster has realized, diamonds have zero intrinsic value, zero resale value, zero investment value, and aren't especially attractive. More importantly, there is reason to believe that diamond production supports corrupt, oppressive governments, child labor, and maybe even the dreaded Bogeyman of 2002, terrorism.

But all this is unimportant, you say, because you have seen a few ads with women walking down the beach to classical music. Common sense and "consumer ethics" be damned, because we must buy these tiny, expensive-to-insure, pretentious monuments to conspicuous consumption?

Explain to me which, exactly, of these concerns is trivial again?

Why not put the money toward a down payment on a home? Or take a spectacular vacation? Which will bring you more happiness during the rest of your life, after your engagement of maybe a year is over? The value, commitment, and longevity of your relationship need not be commemorated by throwing away a great deal of money at the outset.

Re:It's your (future) wife.

[nelsonal]

If you need a diamond, but don't want to support DeBeer's African practices, you could get a Russian or Australian Diamond. They take a little more looking, you should be able to find one on Google, but they are a diamond, that was probably mined with slightly more concern for the miners. The Russian Diamond Syndicate claim's that Russia produces 20% of the world's diamonds.

Re:It's your (future) wife.

[jafac]

No, give her what she really REALLY wants. An ass-whipping and a leather collar!

Re:It's your (future) wife.

[Patik]

But all this is unimportant, you say, because you have seen a few ads with women walking down the beach to classical music. Common sense and "consumer ethics" be damned, because we must buy these tiny, expensive-to-insure, pretentious monuments to conspicuous consumption?

If you're going to attack diamond engagement rings, attack Christmas trees too. They're messy, useless, inconvenient, and while they don't cost much it's still no good for the environment to dig up a tree, cover it with plastic and glass then throw it in the landfill.

This isn't to say that Christmas trees or diamond rings are okay, but where do you draw the line? There are hundreds of things people do regularly that do more harm than good. IMO, people can't take the ethically correct route every single time, so you might as well put it aside for a special occasion such as an engagement, and incorporate good ethics into your everyday life; you'll end up on the plus side, which is what counts.

Re:It's your (future) wife.

[Patik]

1) Go to new york. Find a widowed mother raising an infant girl and say to the woman "Gee, I'm sorry your husband was crushed under 40 floors of steel and concrete trying to rescue people from the world trade center, I think it's just terrible... But I *really* want a diamond enough that I'm willing to give Osama $80."

2) Go to a nice south african country embroiled in a bitter and savage civil war....

Osama will get $80 from someone else's diamond if not yours. It takes a group effort to boycott -- unless more people do it, you're not going to make a difference. If you opt for an expensive honeymoon, a house, or something other than a diamond ring, Osama will somehow get his $80 from that.

Re:It's your (future) wife.

[Wavicle]

If you opt for an expensive honeymoon, a house, or something other than a diamond ring, Osama will somehow get his $80 from that.

Really? I'm fairly knowledgeable about U.S. Real Estate, how is Osama going to get his $80 from my buying an expensive house?

Re:It's your (future) wife.

[UncleFluffy]

I really, really, really have to express much disagreement with this classification of the author's hesitancy to contribute to child labor and murder as "trivial."

Agreed. Do you really want to have children with someone who thinks that torturing children is OK ?

Terrorism vs. Cars

[fishy jew]

one of the key facts to surface is that 2-4.5% of diamond sales will go to finance terrorism or forms of violence

What percentage of gas sales do you think finance terrorism? Money goes from our hands to the gas companies to oil companies in the Mid-East to (possibly) terrorist organizations. Probably true about many other products as well...

Re:Terrorism vs. Cars

[rtaylor]

Probably less than you think. Only a small portion of gas sold in the USA is from the Mid-East.

Re:Terrorism vs. Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and where such things are found, we try for better solutions. In your main example, yes, gas sales fund terrorist activities. There are groups of people that are trying to get us off of the oil dependency, ranging from lowered energy requirements and alternative energy sources, for political, economic, and environmental reasons.

I don't like it much anymore, but I drive a gas powered car. I used to drive without much thought whether I had to go there or consilidating trips. Then, I grew up, learned a bit more, and decided, for economic, political, and environmental reasons, I shouldn't drive so much. So I walk, bike ride. Plan trips when possible to shorten mileage.

I own a smaller car now too. When I can afford it, I'll go for a hybrid. And after the hybrid, I'll look forward to H2 powered cars maybe.

Not everyone is up to the task though, and I mean that in a nonjudgmental way. That's part of the dilemna in the /. story--is this couple up to the task or not.

My wife

[olclops]

I bought my wife's engagement ring from a wholeseller. They're tough to get in with, but if you do a little research and pull it off, you can get a decent sized diamond for literally half the price a "real" jeweler would charge. I got a 1.21 carat for 5 grand. And the problem with the advertising campaign is that it's worked. She may not know the origins of her desire, but you're right, your girlfriend would like a diamond. Almost all of women would. Good luck.

Re:My wife

[intheory]

I've been looking for a reputable wholesaler, as I too am in the market to propose...any suggestions? I've seen a few smaller companies from the Mid-East online, but given recent events, I wonder how great a couple thousand (okay $500) transaction to a dealer in say Syria would bode? :)

Re:My wife

[mabinogi]

> If i ever find the guy who thought up 'two months salary', im going to kick him square in the nuts.

I know exactly what you mean....

However, I was lucky, my GF didn't want a big chunky diamond...she's not much of a jewlery wearer, and she was afraid she'd keep injuring herself, or catcking it on things...she also didn't like yellow gold.
So when I came across a white gold ring with 9 channel set diamonds (albiet, very little diamonds), for $650 I knew I'd found exactly the right one.
And it was :)

Easy alternative

[stere0]

Build up a geek website with a couple of friends, make it popular and propose on the front page a couple of years later.

Do what Taco did...

[Pzykotic]

...Propose on the internet... virtual diamonds are oh-so cheap!

cubic zirconia

[voisine]

Hmmm... dimond engagement ring, or cubic zirconia
and a hot tub. It solves the, "Where's the ring?"
problem and you and your fiancee will have the
piece of mind knowing that you aren't financing
terrorism, while soaking in your new hot tub.

Re:cubic zirconia

[ergo98]

If a "few people" know, then be assured that everyone knows. Something like that is the kind of thing that even the best of friends, in a moment of envy, will spill to others.

I really don't get the cubic zirconia deal (and just wait until you get in a fight and one of the things thrown in your face is how much of a "Cheap bastard" you are buying a cz): Either you go with the tradition and uniqueness of a diamond ring, or do something different altogether (no one says that one has to have something diamond like). I got my wife a diamond because it's tradition and it's what she really wanted (and compared to all the toys I've bought myself and had bought for me, the cost of the diamond wasn't at all onerous). If she didn't want a diamond then I would have gotten her something different altogether.

Re:cubic zirconia

[ergo98]

Oh give me a break. In most relationships the woman gets the short end of the stick: While she's berated for buying a $90 pair of shoes, he's busy buying a new $2000 computer. While she's chastized for getting a facial, he's trading in the Honda Civic for a Corvette. While she's agonizing over whether to buy name brand margarine, he's buying a new super torque cordless drill. Making the diamond the big hinging point of a relationship only makes sense if you also drive the cheapest car, and your PC is a 386 that you buy used: If the situation is anything different, then you're just a cheap, selfish bastard that is overly willing to let her go without while you go with.

Re:cubic zirconia

[Jonny 290]

While she's chastized for getting a facial...

Ya know, I once knew a girl that actually MADE money that way. Muttered something about working her way through college...

Re:cubic zirconia

[charon_on_acheron]

Shall I give you a listing of her purchases this year from the department stores?

She won't spend $100 on a purse, because she knows we can't afford it. But she will spend $20 on a purse, $30 on slacks, $40 on shoes, and $20 on makeup. And I can't say anything, because at least she didn't buy the other purse for $100. And besides, the stuff is all on sale. Otherwise it would have cost twice that.

Why does it seem the stores always have a 30% sale going on?

And my computer at home is a Pentium 133 that we bought in 1996. My kids have faster systems. And I drive a 10-year-old Nissan. My biggest expense is buying 3 or 4 Mountain Dews during the day, so I can stay awake, because I was up all night working on someone's computer to make a few extra dollars to pay the bills.

Re:cubic zirconia

[ergo98]

Bwahahaha. Very nice. :-)

Re:cubic zirconia

[charon_on_acheron]

Three words:
Debt consolidation loan.

Rather than paying 9 credit cards $100 each, at 15-22% interest, we are paying one loan $400 at 9% interest. Oh, and I just took here last two store credit cards away from her.

How can they have no resale value?

[phr2]

If they have no resale value, they you could buy a used diamond very cheaply and get a jeweler to put it in a new setting for you, and that would kill the market for new diamonds. They don't wear out, of course. "Diamonds are forever" and all that.

I agree with most of your other points about the disgusting practices used to produce diamonds and market them.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[TheSHAD0W]

Actually, diamonds AREN'T forever; they can shatter, and they can burn. Don't go looking for the missus' engagement ring in the ashes of your fire-ravaged house, you won't find it.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[haystor]

Used diamonds can save a wad of cash with just a little effort. You should also realize that the markup on diamonds is huge. If you walk into a store with cash on hand its quite easy to walk out with a huge discount beyond their regular 50% off sales.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[JordoCrouse]

If you walk into a store with cash on hand its quite easy to walk out with a huge discount beyond their regular 50% off sales.

Better yet, see if you can somebody to refer you to a diamond wholesaler. They save you a bundle, and the person who refered you will get a small kickback as a referer's fee. I got my diamond for wholesale, and because the jeweler recommended me, he ended up applying the referer's fee to the price of the ring. Result? The ring appraised the next day for almost double what I paid for it.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[A5un]

If they have no resale value, they you could buy a used diamond very cheaply and get a jeweler to put it in a new setting for you, and that would kill the market for new diamonds. They don't wear out, of course. "Diamonds are forever" and all that.

Actually, diamonds aren't forever. They're unstable form of graphite. Under normal room temperature and pressure, they'll turn into graphite. Sure, the process will take millions of years but technically they aren't forever. That's what I remember from first year chemistry class, any chemistry major cares to back this up?

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[MadCow42]

Um, I hate to burst your bubble, but diamond products (rings, earrings, etc.) usually DO appraise for double the price you pay, unless you get screwed over.

I've bought a few things over the years (earrings, engagement ring, pendant, bracelet, etc.), and they've ALL appraised for about double. You'll even see stores (retail stores) ADVERTISE that your purchase is guaranteed to appraise for double.

I think it's part of the cartel syndrome... the appraisers are in that loop too so that prices stay high.

Just my $0.02.

MadCow.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[E1v!$]

I'll back it up. I had CHM114 not 3 years ago.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[dachshund]

Even better yet, buy an antique ring. Not only are they more beautiful (in my opinion) than most of the crap that's being put out on the market, but they're unique and affordable.

Go down to the various markets in the Diamond District in NYC (or whatever the equivalent is in your city) and go through the stalls. Avoid antique stores, as they will be far more expensive (they often shop in the same place you'll be looking.)

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[Zeinfeld]

Actually, diamonds AREN'T forever; they can shatter, and they can burn. Don't go looking for the missus' engagement ring in the ashes of your fire-ravaged house, you won't find it.

I keep it in the media safe which is rated for several hours.

Of course I could have bought a cubic zircon for almost the same effect, only I don't think they sell them at Tiffany's.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[Tablizer]

Aren't they produced deep within the crust of the earth at unimaginable pressures or something like that?

Sound like a good description of the marriage proposal process.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[EvilBudMan]

Used would be cool too. The price is almost as high but sometimes you can find cool older designs. Be careful when getting used diamonds. They are hard but also brittle too.

Why am I even chiming in, I'm not getting maried, HAHAHA???

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[Arandir]

Or the best alternative of all: "This is my Grandmother's engagement ring. My grandparents were married 58 years and were deeply in love every minute of it. I would be honored for you to have this."

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[laserjet]

Just as an example to your statement, Costco sales some nice diamond jewlery, and they gaurantee it will appraise at at least double what you paid or you get your money back plus some.

it's almost worse than drugs.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[Amazing Quantum Man]

I did something similar. My grandmother had a diamond "Eternity" ring with a bunch of really small (2-3 point) diamonds in it. My wife (well, she was my fiancee back then) and I had a ring made which incorporated those diamonds, and also a central stone. This was many years ago before any PC-ness came about regarding diamonds.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[John Hasler]

Even better yet, buy an antique

Even better yet, find a pawn shop.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[John Hasler]

Have you ever tried to turn that appraisal into actual money?

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[Strepsil]

Or the best alternative of all: "This is my Grandmother's engagement ring. My grandparents were married 58 years and were deeply in love every minute of it. I would be honored for you to have this."

The only downside I see here is the possibility that you may have to kill your Grandmother if she doesn't have the decency to die before you wish to propose.

Of course, if you can't bring yourself to do that then you could always settle for breaking them up. Once the divorce is through, just point out to Grandma that she won't be needing that ring any more and she can give it to you.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[Mournblade]

My wife went to grad school with a woman whose husband makes jewelry. I went to him for the education about diamonds (and to have the ring made exactly the way I knew she'd want it). One of the first things he told me was not that they have no resale value, but that, unlike other significant investments, they don't appreciate in value AT ALL. That is, if you pay $5,000 for the ring, in 10 years, it's still worth $5,000.

Having said that:

Buy the diamond. It's worth it.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[Ralph Wiggam]

I'm going to give this story a try pretty soon here:

"My mom married a rich doctor with family money right out of college and he gave her a big fat rock but he started fucking one of his nurses within a year so she dumped him and started dating my dad and they traded it in for an even bigger rock but then they got divorced after 20 years but they still talk sometimes so it's not like they hate each other and it's still a great looking diamond and I would be honored if you would take it and not make me broke."

Actually, you could tell most girls "I stole this off a dead body", then whip out a 1.3 carat brilliant cut flawless and get a "yes".

I happen to have found one of the rare awesome girls that thinks spending thousands on a ring instead of a down payment on a house is stupid.

-B

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[Moofie]

Or, golly, you could, um, ask her for the ring. That's what I'm gonna do. : )

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[Moofie]

What is the "it" that "it" is "worth"? I seriously don't understand your point.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[FreeUser]

I happen to have found one of the rare awesome girls that thinks spending thousands on a ring instead of a down payment on a house is stupid.

That's not as rare as you think, or rather, as rare as DeBeers has paid Hollywood to make you think.

Most women I know are pretty together and feel likewise ... while they'd like to have the ring, there are a lot more material things they'd like to have a lot more, and a house is usually at the top of the list.

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[_bug_]

Keep in mind we're talking insurance replacement value when you get a piece of jewlry appraised.

Actualy, real-world price is about half of the appraisal value. This is somewhat standard in the jewlry biz. (Had a friend who managed a Zales store for several years.)

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[Arandir]

Oh that will do the trick all right! "Here, this ring is cursed. I want you to have it."

Re:How can they have no resale value?

[markmier]

Indeed, diamonds are NOT forever. In fact, when they're not under enormous pressure, diamonds are not thermodynamically stable. I can't remember the exact number, but carbon is slightly more stable as graphite than as diamond (I remember something like 4kJ/mol, but don't quote me on that). So in a million billion years, all diamonds will have turned into graphite. The problem is that the kinetics of turning from diamond to graphite are so slow that they may appear to be "forever," but don't be fooled!

GRAPHITE is forever!

Two Words:

[Null_Packet]

Antique Ring.

I gave my wife a pretty cool engagement ring from an antique jewelry outfit. Sure, it's 2nd hand, but it has the personality and it doesn't get crazy as far as prices go either.

Re:Two Words:

[queequeg1]

This is the way to go. My family has a ring that has been passed down four generations. It is sort of a condition of proposal (i.e. I'm giving you this ring but it's a family heirloom and if we have a son who ends up getting married, he should have the option of giving it to his fiance).

Re:Two Words:

[plankers]

Same with my family. It's awesome. Not only do I not have to go shopping for a ring and endure all that, but the ring has some history behind it, and is neat looking. Plus four generations of women liked it, so I don't have to fret over whether it looks good or not. :-) Kid tested, mother approved. But yeah, if we have a son, he has the option of passing it along, and if you ditch me I'm getting it back (and hopefully that's not the case!).

Purpose of Article?

[Valdrax]

It seems to me that the purpose of this article really isn't to ask a question, but instead to be a bully-pulpit to rally against the DeBeers monopoly. I don't know if "Ask Slashdot" is an appropriate place for this.

As for the tagged on question at the end, have you considered your fiance-to-be's birth stone? My grandmother had a beautiful ruby and silver engagement ring. If you're not looking for a ring, then it really depends on how much a traditionalist your girlfriend is. Just whatever you do, if you're going to skip the ring option, don't try to weasel out with something less than the cost of a diamond ring, or it's likely she'll suspect that money was the real motivation.

Re:Purpose of Article?

[Query_Squidier]

'Course, going with the birth stone only works if she wasn't born in April. Hehe.

BIRTHSTONES
January Garnet
February Amethyst
March Aquamarine
April Diamond
May Emerald
June Alexandrite
July Ruby
August Peridot
September Sapphires
October Opal
November Topaz
December Blue Zircon

Re:Purpose of Article?

[plugger]

Well, with 6 month sales of over $3bn posted on Monday, I'm sure they can take it.

De Beers results here. (pdf document).

Re:Purpose of Article?

[MoThugz]

It isn't in "Ask Slashdot" section :)

DeBeers is a monopoly? Perhaps in the US, here in Asia they're barely noticable. In fact, works of local jewellers are much more beautiful (and affordable).

Re:Purpose of Article?

[jafac]

It seems to me that the purpose of this article really isn't to ask a question, but instead to be a bully-pulpit to rally against the DeBeers monopoly. I don't know if "Ask Slashdot" is an appropriate place for this.

Yah, sounds more like a Katz article to me.

Re:Purpose of Article?

[melee]

DeBeers is most certainly not a monopoly.

It's a cartel. Which is even worse.

They're not in the retail or jewelry-crafting business, but you can be assured that your local craftsman's diamonds are from DeBeers or otherwise affected by their price-fixing.

Unless he has connections sneaking the jewels from the Russian mines or something, in which case, good for him.

Canadian diamonds

[simetra]

They're really expensive, but are guaranteed not to have the ethical overhead of others. Plus, they have a cool little polar bear laser-etched into the side (very tiny, you have to use a loupe to see it).

They're called Polar Bear Diamonds.

Re:Canadian diamonds

[gehrehmee]

As silly as this sounds, it looks like this might actually be true.

http://www.siriusdiamonds.com/

Re:Canadian diamonds

[kent_eh]

Sure the little polar bear might seem a bit silly, but it's like any other trademark, it lets you know who made (processed in this case) it.

And more importantly, that DeBeers never had their dirty paws on it.

Re:Canadian diamonds

[Dagett_Beaver]

...but are guaranteed not to have the ethical overhead of others...

I guess if you don't consider strip mining pristine wilderness to be any big whoop.

Re:Canadian diamonds

[linzeal]

I don't have a problem with it. Strip mining is here today because the alternative is far too expensive. If you want to live in a technologically progressive society get used to us humans changing the enviroment to suit our needs without any real concern for other living things. Its been like this for a long time and the only option is regressing to huts and eating roots, no thank you.

Re:Canadian diamonds

[Some Dumbass...]

I don't have a problem with it. Strip mining is here today because the alternative is far too expensive. If you want to live in a technologically progressive society get used to us humans changing the enviroment to suit our needs without any real concern for other living things. Its been like this for a long time and the only option is regressing to huts and eating roots, no thank you.

Don't blow a gasket, Charlie. We're still just talking about diamonds. Nobody is suggesting the total rejection of modern technology. What we're talking about is priorities. Diamonds are acquired through strip mining. Here's the question: Is it worth supporting strip mining to get your hands on a diamond? Strip mining has real consequences, and diamonds aren't exactly necessities.

On that note, may I point out that if humans spend too much time "changing the enviroment to suit our needs without any real concern for other living things", we're going to run out of food, building materials, and other resources. Strip mining a wilderness sounds good right now, but what about when we run low on trees and that wilderness has died out? So don't take too simplistic a view of technology. Just because we can strip mine doesn't mean that it's a good idea, especially when we're strip mining to get diamonds for wedding rings (definately an unnecessary luxury!) We've got to think farther ahead than that.

Re:Canadian diamonds

[genesplicer]

This was true until they took over the Snap Lake mine last year:

http://www.debeerscanada.com/files_new/mining.ht ml

At least it's only one mine so far ... If you have the opportunity (and MUST buy a diamond), I suppose you could trace the source back to a non-DeBeers Canadian (or Australian) mine ...
DeBeers seems sort of like the Borg - ubiquitous, relentless, and futile to resist forever ...

Re:Canadian diamonds

[OpalMirror]

As a combination significant birthday and 1.9 year anniversary (how's that for geeky?), my wife and I selected for her a Canadian Diamond from EKATI.

EKATI mines their diamonds in the Canadian Arctic, a couple hundred miles NorthEast of Yellowknife. The mine was set up via agreement with the local First Nations people. Yes, it's strip mining, but the impact is being mitigated as part of the environmental agreements with the government. The mining equipment is huge!

All of the processing, cutting, polishing are done in the local area. Native people with an interest have had the opportunity to learn how to evaluate, cut and polish the stones.

We paid a premium, perhaps 50% more than untracked (likely South African) diamonds. It is a very fine diamond as far as the ratings go. Along with the diamond came a detailed assay and certificate of authenticity from the Canadian government. The waist of the diamond is also laser etched with a polar bear, Ekati trademark, a unique serial number. Overall it was as special an item as we hoped it would be and we felt it is worth the higher price -- because we wanted to really know the history of the stone.

We purchased the diamond on a trip to Vancouver, BC -- don't forget to get your Goods & Services Tax refunded if you live in the US.

My wife was born in the Northwest Territories, so it is a little piece of home that she wears on her finger, and something that she finds reminds her how special a person she is... which was the point, entirely. :)

Re:Canadian diamonds

[Dr. Cam]

Two comments:
1. There's more than one approach to strip mining - and it's usually referred to as open pit. I have a client that gets coal by taking a mountain apart, then builds a new one, and reforests it. The deer, elk, sheep, goats, bears, coyotes, and wolves are back in numbers not seen for decades. It's a sensible way to do things if you approach it properly. Some companies have not, but in areas where the existence of the mine depends on restoring the land to equal or better, the companies perform. It's good citizenship and good for business into the bargain. I cannot speak for the diamond miners in the North, but they had to make some serious guarantees about the land, given the fragility of the ecosystem.
2. My wife and I never considered a diamond (this was before the mines were even thought of in the North, though I doubt that would have swayed our minds). She got a blue-green tourmaline, which suits her colouring. Emeralds are very nice, but a good one is hard to find (most have inclusions), and more expensive than a diamond of comparable weight. You have to watch some stones - they are soft (tourmaline is - and my wife's is in the garden someplace [just the stone] partly for that reason), and do not wear well. She's now gone to a gold band that matches mine (moebius design).

I think you need to consider what the symbolism is. If it means a great deal to her that you will beggar yourself to please her, then you might as well go for broke. If that doesn't impress her, don't make a fool of yourself. If you don't know for sure what will work, then maybe you're not quite ready - i.e. you don't know her well enough, and need to ask some more questions. You'll spend enough time guessing what she means - I'd start with getting clear about this (and the wedding, while you're at it). :-)

Re:Canadian diamonds

[SlugLord]

Sweet! I'm buying all my ice from Canada now.

Re:Canadian diamonds

[RockyJSquirel]

...but are guaranteed not to have the ethical overhead of others...

I guess if you don't consider strip mining pristine wilderness to be any big whoop.

I don't know which part of Canada diamonds come from, but if it's anything like the area I grew up in (think North Dakota) you don't have to worry about.

I used to tell people that I'd be all for the environment if we had one.

Rocky J. Squirrel

Re:Canadian diamonds

[Citizen of Earth]

I guess if you don't consider strip mining pristine wilderness to be any big whoop.

Is "pristine wilderness" a code phrase for "barren tundra wasteland"?

Re:Canadian diamonds

[aoeuid]

She needs a ring that apparently most other married women have to make her feel special?

Re:Canadian diamonds

[m0nkyman]

As a jeweller who sells a lot of these stones, I can say that they are not 'very expensive'. They are on cost parity with stones that are of similar quality.

The guys and gals at Sirius are focussing a bit more on cutting the diamonds well.

if you're interested email me at thom at idar/com (obfuscated)

http://www.idar.com is the store I work at

Re:Canadian diamonds

[bartok]

Wasteland to cityfolks but apparently not for the natives who live there, not to mention the whole ecosystem.

Re:Canadian diamonds

[Citizen of Earth]

Wasteland to cityfolks but apparently not for the natives who live there, not to mention the whole ecosystem.

Bullshit. They just want a payday.

Re:Canadian diamonds

[ckedge]

DeBeers owns half the mines in Northern Canada.

yeah right

[zBoD]

As if *you* would ever have a girlfriend ;)

Fuck tradition

[nicfit]

My girlfriend told me not to WASTE our money and instead we spent three crazy weeks in Hawaii AND had money in the bank.

God I love her!

Re:Fuck tradition

[Master Bait]

Hear hear. Diamonds are one of the most metaphysically evil substances we know. They are the standard-bearer of greed, and greed follows them the moment they are dug up out of the ground. Just a friggin rock. And look at all the glamor that surrounds them. Outside of industrial use, their true value is nil.

Re:Fuck tradition

[DNS-and-BIND]

Is she going to have the 3 weeks in Hawaii on her finger 70 years from now?

Re:Fuck tradition

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but he can have is finger in her for 3 weeks in Hawaii 70 years from now.

Re:Fuck tradition

[weston]

1)If she's over twenty, statistically, chances are better than not that she won't have a working body to support the finger 70 years from now.

2) $2000 x compound interest x 70 years.... if she is alive, she can have a lot better than a piece of metal and a mineral all but worthless except in certain industrial applications.

3) For some people, experiences are more important than things.

For others, who live in a world where the diamond mythos looms large and in which they will be constantly judged by diamond size (both husband and wife, yes), well, maybe the diamond is worth it.

Re:Fuck tradition

[plugger]

Let's hope not. I've heard of some long engagements, but that is ridiculous!

Re:Fuck tradition

[norton_I]

A friend of mine recently got married. He got her a diamond engagment ring, but they couldn't afford to take a honeymoon.

True, the diamond will be around for 70 years, but I will would rather have the honeymoon.

Plus, the ethics of the diamond industry aside, I can't stand the implication that bying an expensive rock is the only, the best, or even a good way to show love. I cringe every time I see a DeBeers commemrcial.

For all of these reasons, I don't think I could actually bring myself to purchase a diamond. I hope that if I am ever looking to propose to someone, she will understand that.

Re:Fuck tradition

[Dalcius]

No, but they can love each other 70 years from now.

Re:Fuck tradition

[Moofie]

Can't lose treasured memories down the bathtub drain. Sounds like your priorities are a bit backwards.

My family always has gone on nice vacations instead of wearing expensive clothes. I've never for a moment thought that this was a bad idea.

Re:Fuck tradition

[MoneyT]

No, but 70 years from now she might be being visited in the nursing home by the product of those 3 weeks

Re:Fuck tradition

[MoneyT]

Sounds like you may have been doing more than just fucking tradition.

*rimshot*

Re:Fuck tradition

[charon_on_acheron]

Unless she get Alzheimers she will. She will treasure those memories much more than a trinket when she is old.

Have you ever been there by the way? My mother went there on vacation. I'm pretty sure she would prefer that as a honeymoon spot over a diamond ring any day.

diamond sponsored terrorism

[Snuffub]

Great, i fully expect the bush administration to put out new commercials linking diamond sales to terrorism and urging all "true" americans to stay clear of them. I mean they did the same thing with pot without one proven link between marijuana sales and terrorist organizations.

Re:diamond sponsored terrorism

[simetra]

Yeah, not to mention that OIL money is probably the biggest source of funds for terrorism.

"I helped blow up a fireman's dog - by driving my SUV!"

Re:diamond sponsored terrorism

[Anonymous Coward]

you mean Marijuana isn't linked to terrorism? You mean that the government lies when it makes claims about drugs that are part of the drug war? You have GOT to be kidding!

Re:diamond sponsored terrorism

[Jonny Ringo]

I mean they did the same thing with pot without one proven link between marijuana sales and terrorist organizations.

Word, I HATED that comercial. Trying to say I killed a judge or a cop by smoking weed. I have a better idea, why don't you legalize marijuana than we wouldn't have that freakin problem now would we.

Re:diamond sponsored terrorism

[chryptic]

Considering the fuel consumption of an SUV, I would say at least two dogs.

Re:diamond sponsored terrorism

[charon_on_acheron]

"you can't pick and choose the laws you feel like supporting."

Yeah, how the hell did that Martin Luther King Jr guy ever get supporters, when everyone knew he was breaking the law like that. He even got arrested and stuff. Man, everyone should follow every law ever made, rather that voicing their opinion that some of those laws should be revoked. Because everyone knows it was wrong to drink alcohol in the 1920's, but it is OK to drink it now. It was OK to smoke marijuana in the 1920's, but it is wrong to smoke it now.

Re:diamond sponsored terrorism

[spazimodo]

with the help of a warez copy of premiere, i couldn't agree more: http://bespattered.net/oilsupportsterror.mpg

Re:diamond sponsored terrorism

[Chris Burke]

I have an idea, too. Why don't you stop eating ice cream? Oh... you won't... why not? I thought it wasn't addictive. If so, you should be able to stop, right?

Or maybe it's because you're not going to stop doing something harmless (unless you count the fat content!) just to prove to some jackass AC that you can? Naw, that can't be it.

Re:diamond sponsored terrorism

[Chris Burke]

Considering the number of lives that the War on Drugs has ruined -- not the drugs, but the War on Drugs -- I can't say I think the comparison is entirely out of line.

Of course the degree of similarity is not the issue; that the Civil Rights Movement completely obliterates the argument that some laws are unjust and should be protested is.

Re:diamond sponsored terrorism

[Chris Burke]

I meant to say "obliterates the argument that no laws are unjust and thus should not be protested", or just make it easier and replace "obliterates" with "justifies" and be done with it. :P

Re:diamond sponsored terrorism

[BryceH]

of course they didnt provide any data to link marijuana and terrorism. they did the research and found out that marijuana sales support local farmers! no way in hell do they want that out ;)

Re:diamond sponsored terrorism

[maxume]

like the above thread about canadian diamonds, just make sure that it come from america junior. Then you won't have to be paranoid about funding terrorism...

Re:diamond sponsored terrorism

[Chris Burke]

That works, too. :)

What does she want?

[Stuart Gibson]

My better half wasn't fussed on a diamond at all, so her ring is an amethyst. Not sure what the US is like, but in good old Blighty it's quite common for "alternative" stones to be the main setting in a ring.

Basically, go round the jewellers and try to ignore prices and wait until you've really found one you like. Took us about a month of constant seraching and we ended up with one that wasn't massively expensive but that we both thought was beautiful.

Love isn't measured in pounds/dollars.

Goblin

Re:What does she want?

[Darren.Moffat]

I think the "diamond engagement ring" tradition started in the US and spread outwards.

Re:What does she want?

[jamesdood]

My wife and I are still looking for the perfect ring, and we've been married for almost 12 years!! Stay focused on love and make sure that you both communicate your feelings, this is MUCH more important than any material items!!

If the resale value is zilch

[Therin]

as you say, then why not just buy a used one (estate sale, whatever).

Or cubic zirconium; pretty hard to tell from diamond without a loupe

up to you

[hakalugi]

it's up to you if you think they're worth it...

but if you want to learn about them, go here: http://www.pricescope.com/tutorial.asp

and the vendor I bought mine from, who also has lots of great info, can be found here: www.goodoldgold.com

sims... do google searches on ascher and a search on www.diamondtalk.com forums for "simulants" as long as she 'knows' its a sim, more power to ya...

Other GEMS or no gem at all

[Darren.Moffat]

The obvious thing to me is to look for other gem stones that don't have such a dubious cartel infrastucture around them. My wife has a diamond ring but I'm sure she would have been happy with a saffire if I had refused to by a diamond for the reasons you gave - she is ware of "industry" but still likes diamonds none the less.

Many of the Royal wedding engaement rings don't use a single diamond as the centre stone but have used others like Ruby's and emeralds instead - some also have diamonds a "support" stones but you could drop that.

Your other alternative is not to go with a gem stone ring at all. Quite a few of my married friends only have wedding rings. Not because they were marring cheap guys but some for the reasons you cite. In these cases they have much more detailed metal work on the wedding band than the traditional gold band.

Re:Other GEMS or no gem at all

[ocbwilg]

Your other alternative is not to go with a gem stone ring at all. Quite a few of my married friends only have wedding rings. Not because they were marring cheap guys but some for the reasons you cite. In these cases they have much more detailed metal work on the wedding band than the traditional gold band.

Absolutely. Myself being of Celtic descent, I intend to purchase wedding bands engraved with Celtic knots or other Celtic imagery rather than spend the money on a sweater-snagging diamond. In my opinion they are every bit as beautiful, and they can also convey a sense of family history and come across as much more unique than the cliched diamond solitaire.

As an aside, I found the article interesting but noted that it was written in 1982. I'm curious what sort of changes have occurred in the market during the past 20 years.

Re:Other GEMS or no gem at all

[EllisDees]

Absolutely. Myself being of Celtic descent, I intend to purchase wedding bands engraved with Celtic knots or other Celtic imagery rather than spend the money on a sweater-snagging diamond.

Might I recommend Tradeshop.com as a place to check out. My wife and i got our wedding rings there and were very happy with the result.

2 Words -

[huckamania]

Pawn Shop.

This is where my wife's engagement/wedding band comes from and it worked out really well for both of us.

You have to be selective though. Don't just buy any ring, find one you know she'll like. Maybe go shopping with her at a real jewelry store and let her pick a few.

After you know what she likes, go to a few pawn shops and find one that is similiar. Then take it to a jeweler and have them clean it. They will also sell you a nice new box to put it in.

Final piece of advice, never ever admit that that is where you got it. If anyone asks say it's not important, just so long as your sweetie is happy.

Cheers!

Do it for her you selfish nit!

[hv]

You spend ~$2k for a machine that crunches numbers and lets you escape into a virtual fantasy world for a few hours a day. The machine is outdated and depreciated when you buy it, and it just gets worse as time goes by.

The diamond on her finger reminds her of the moment she fell in love with you. The good times you share with her, and her undying devotion to you.

Do it for her! Put a price on how it will make her feel. If she understands how you feel about making the purchase... ALL THE MORE REASON TO DO IT FOR HER... show her you understand how she feels.

Re:Do it for her you selfish nit!

[pla]

You spend ~$2k for a machine that crunches numbers and lets you escape into a virtual fantasy world for a few hours a day.

Ah, *GREAT* suggestion! Buy her a kickass computer instead. Rather than just lying around gathering dust, waiting for her to lose it (or pawn it if you happen to fall into the over 50% of Americans that later get a divorce), it will let her "crunch numbers" and "escape into a virtual fantasy world". What more could she ask?

And, rather than having no resale value due to its inherently useless nature (referring to diamonds), if she *does* eventually decide to pawn it, it has no value for a much better reason, namely, faster machines will exist. All very poetic, extends the idea of "looking for a newer model" into a whole new realm.

Actually, though, if she *really* wants a ring, use the $2-5k as a downpayment on a chunk of land somewhere. Have a pebble from the plot set into a ring, and when she looks at you like you have just grown a third head, explain the meaning. If she doesn't like it more than a similar pebble from South Africa, ditch the impractical wench.

People seem to act like love depends on giving a woman a particularly expensive lump of rock. If it *does*, find someone less materialistic.

Saphires

[BravoZuluM]

The saphire was the traditional engagement ring until DeBeers and Hollywood sold the world on "A diamond is a girl's best friend" in the 30's. I bought my wife a big saphire with two small, high quality diamonds on the side. It is way nicer than a diamond ring, my wife loves it. I didn't save any money, but at least the saphire cartel doesn't rule the world like DeBeers does.

If you look around, there are many women who wear the saphires. Many women like my wife's ring. It is more unique and I didn't feel like I got screwed for the very reasons you describe in your post.

Re:Saphires

[Shirloki]

That's interesting, because I have a friend who's planning on buying a saphire engagement ring. I don't remember exactly what his reasons were, but as I recall, he liked the blue color rather than the transparent color of diamonds.

Re:Saphires

[wnknisely]

Like I mentioned elsewhere - this is exactly what my wife and I did. I bought her an emerald ring with 4 small diamonds on the side. I think it was called a "cocktail" ring at the time.

She's gotten lots of compliments on it over the years, and the stone is much larger than a diamond of equivalent price would have been. (And it's a natural emerald - so it's much nicer looking than the synthetic ones we used to have laying around in the lab.)

Re:Saphires

[flamelord]

I find sapphires are much prettier too. And it's a damn hard rock. Tanzanite is interesting too, and I don't believe they have lab created tanzanite yet (though they do make "faux" cubic zirconium tanzanite).

Re:Laptops are a girl's best friend

[YrWrstNtmr]

She won't cherish that laptop 50 years form now.

Simple Economics

[bbaskin]

Do you value her? [Yes.] Does she want a diamond? [Yes.] Will her having a diamond make your life better? [Yes, if she marries you.] Then get her a diamond. That's all that really matters. It's not a financial investment, it's an investment in happiness and worth far more than it's price in dollars.

Bryan Baskin

Re:Simple Economics

[Yakko]

Unfortunately, that logic will be followed -every- time by some people to get whatever they want, despite the cost or practicality.

I'm about halfway thru this thread, and the more I read, the more I feel right in my decision to just not try to get hitched.

Where's the Public Service Commercial?

[jonnyq]

You know the one... "Terrorists are bad..., If you've bought a diamond, you're funding them."

Oh wait, they only have those to discourage businesses that don't make the gov't money...

Re:Where's the Public Service Commercial?

[BitHive]

You don't think the sale of controlled substances makes the government money? Do you ever wonder who makes the prices are so high in the first place? (Here's a hint--the government)

Learn

[nuggz]

Do your research, deal with someone intelligent. Your wife to be would probaly have an extra $5k on her wedding or in her bank account then on her finger.

Buy a slightly yellower, with small inclusions diamond, you can't see the difference, but they are significantly cheaper. You do want a good cut, it will catch the light and nobody will know the difference.

(Small inclusions can't be seen unaided, a good jeweler will even admit this)

Agreed

[LBrothers]

While diamonds may have a low resale value, that's not a critical point. Are you planning on selling this diamond any time soon? No. If you're fortunate enough you may have a better option, see if your grandmother's (or great grandmother's) engagement ring is in the family and available. That's both sensible and heart-touching.

Re:Agreed

[funkhauser]

... and cheap. :)

Re:Agreed

[martyn s]

No, but the low resale value is just evidence of the scam that De Beers has going.

Re:Agreed

[rikkards]

Cheap to buy but also very expensive value wise. My brother had my sister-in-law's grandmother's diamond remounted. Supposedly it was worth a lot more than an equivalent diamond due to the fact that it was prepared a while back.

Re:Agreed

[PhipleTroenix]

I got my ex a very nice diamond when we got engaged. Along with everything else she "stole" from me, she got the diamond. I'm glad the resale value was low. Bitch.

Show on Nova last week!

[Telastyn]

About manufactured diamonds and their history.

currently Gemesis is America's primary manufacturer. They are building a $25m factory for making better/ different colored diamonds. Currently they can make yellow ones, though the show showed clear, and fanciful colored ones (in testing it seems).

They are "real" diamonds, pretty much seeded carbon crystal. Any gemologist can likely tell you they are real diamond, albeit manufactured. AFAIK the cost is a little higher, if not compriable for now.

Re:Show on Nova last week!

[Bingo Foo]

They are building a $25m factory for making better/ different colored diamonds.

"I'll get you a diamond next year, honey when the .13 micron process is perfected...."

Most women aren't nearly so shallow

[bman08]

My fiancee was totally cool with the idea of another kind of stone, or with a fake. Show your girl some pictures of the kids from the mines, you'd be surprised how receptive she gets.

Get a GIANT phoney and she can still brag/lie to her family/friends and secretly feel morally superior.

Blood Diamonds.

[pauly_thumbs]

There was a good piece about this on NPR about
2 months ago and the reccomendation was this; use
the internet to shop around as much as possible
to find the best deal. The diamond industry is
hurting because of the internet and the flood of
blood (conflict) diamonds in the market.
Be patient and find the best deal, also go to
antique stores in the country and pawn shops
(she'll never know) ;) btw: Cubit Zirconia??

serioiusly: I owuldnt worry about funding
terrrorism... the CIA has that covered

Re:Blood Diamonds.

[ike42]

I believe the program you are referring to is by American Radio Works, and was broadcast on NPR stations starting in Nov of 2001.

Sometimes it can work

[rks404]

My wife and I both decided not to get a diamond for our wedding or engagement rings. She's cool and smart and not so caught up in the DeBeers propaganda that she wanted to be a part of the diamond trade. I was just relieved not to have to waste so much money on a shiny rock.

When people ask us why we don't have a diamond, we tell them that we used the money for the downpayment on a house. That seems to shut them up.

Just got married

[Kymermosst]

I gave one to her... 1/3 ct, near-flawless (VVS2), I-colored stone... but the color isn't yellow, it's grey. When put next to similar, yellow-trended diamonds, it looks great.

My advice is to buy the stone loose, and pay a good jewler to put it on a ring. Always make sure you can inspect the stone before you commit the money.

Overall, the final ring with the wedding bands looks really nice, and believe me, she let me know it was worth buying it for her :)

Re:Just got married

[bwoodring]

No, he got to *get* anal.

Re:Just got married

[yoderm]

I gave one to her... 1/3 ct, near-flawless

My advice is to buy the stone loose, and pay a good jewler to put it on a ring.

Hey, that's almost exactly what I did. My wife and I talked a lot about this beforehand. It boiled down to this: rationally, she saw no need for a diamond, but emotionally she'd been influenced enough by our culture that she felt she needed one. And I wanted to give her some physical token. So we settled on a small diamond. It's 1/3 carat, well cut, almost clear, and almost flawless. Small, but good.

I got the diamond from Mondera.com when they were just starting up (it was probably dumb, but worked out quite well). I then took the rock into a small, local jeweler and said "appraise this and put a ring around it". I got to design the ring - that was pretty cool.

I was able to put enough research and work into the ring to make it unique to us. I felt that it was such a big deal that I couldn't possibly just walk into a store and buy something off the shelf. :-)

-Mike

Re:Just got married

[SETIGuy]

she let me know it was worth buying it for her.

My wife and I got plain gold bands and hopped a plane to Reno for our wedding. She'd have killed me if I got her a diamond.

The ring isn't important, nor is an expensive wedding. It's the marriage thats important. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a fool.

Re:Just got married

[Kymermosst]

True, but my wife also likes gems. She's big into geology/gemology, so it was still appropriate.

At any rate, we honeymooned in Reno. It's a good place for that.

The nice thing about a traditional wedding is all the fine gifts, and my parents got us a spa room in the El Dorado for four nights. Ahhh that was nice.

honeymoon

[cpeterso]

Instead of "investing" two months salary in a tiny diamond, why not use that money for a superb honeymoon? That is something you both can enjoy. For example, if you have $20M you might be able to visit Space Station Alpha. ;-)

If she just wants the ring, then perhaps she is a gold digger.

Re:honeymoon

[ceejayoz]

if you have $20M you might be able to visit Space Station Alpha. ;-)

Maybe they can do some *ahem* scientific testing up there? ;-)

Do you two talk to each other?

[A nonymous Coward]

Seriously. If you can't talk to each other about this, then you are fools to even consider marriage. If you would rather get /. opinions on this than talk it over with the gf, then you aren't ready.

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[Dynedain]

You don't get it do you....the proposal and the engagement ring is supposed to be somewhat of a suprise. If you are sitting down and talking about it, the point is sortof ruined isn't it?

And he's asking for alternatives. What's better, asking 1 person for ideas of possible alternatives, or a couple hundred thousand?

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[weston]

Your advice is well-taken, but I think the poster was more looking for other ideas than he was social approval from an overgrown weblog/bulletin board.

Take, for example, personalized Titanium rings. Some embedded with other precious stones with actual value. Cheaper, enduring, modern, cool.

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[Skyshadow]

If you can't talk to each other about this, then you are fools to even consider marriage.

Well, you should understand that there are certain women (my girlfriend included) who would prefer the proposal to be a surprise at a romantic spot that they can remember and savor for the rest of their lives. In these cases, you (as the guy) are somewhat left to your own devices in regards to ring selection.

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[Safety Cap]

If you can't talk to each other about this, then you are fools to even consider marriage

Whaa? Of course he'd want to pose this message to /. -- just think about the consequences if he tries to moderate his girlfriend as "-1, Troll" or "-1, Offtopic": he'd either get spanked by the "lameness" filter, or bitchslapped permanently when she $rtbls him!

It's not worth taking the risk.

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[selan]

Right on. If it's important to you than you really need to talk to her about it.

If you don't want to ruin the surprise of popping the question, then why not slip your concerns about diamonds into an innocent conversation, like when you walk past a jewelry store in the mall.

Also, many couples like to pick out the ring together after they are engaged. That way she gets to pick out exactly what she likes, and you'll be able to clear the air on diamonds before buying a ring. My husband and I went together to pick out a ring after we got engaged. First make an appointment with the jeweler and tell him ahead of time how much you can afford. Then he will already have the relevant diamond selection available and you don't have to discuss price out in the open.

Good luck!

BTW, do you really want to bring up resale value to your girlfriend? If you're planning on getting married and staying married, she would never want to sell it!

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Seriously. If you can't talk to each other about this, then you are fools to even consider marriage.

Asking a few thousand of his closest friends for suggestions, before going to her for that discussion, is a very useful thing to do. Perhaps one of them will come up with something brilliant.

But what makes you think he DIDN'T already talk to her about it? Or that she doesn't read slashdot? Or that SHE doesn't talk about things with HER friends before talking to HIM?

Pair bonding is a very important part of life. And hard to get right. (Fortunately you only have to get it right once. B-) ) Most people try to make every bit of the interaction as pleasant as they can for their partner. Getting information and opinion before trying something in the real relationship is one part of doing that.

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[Troy]

What the last guy said. When I got engaged, my girlfriend and I spent some time talking about what kind of ring to get. We didn't obsess over it, but it was up for some pretty honest discussion.

I am a very practical person who sees such things as being symbols pointing to something much greater. Whenever I see those "A diamond is forever" commercials, I think "So 6 months' salary saved towards a house!"

A tatoo on your ass, now THAT lasts forever! :-)

As it turned out, she felt the same way, so we took a route that was appropriate.

I think it is helpful to just establish what her hopes are related to this(real hopes, not what she thinks she should say) and what your real reservations are...then explore options that make both of you honestly happy. If this is an important issue to both of you, then compromising becomes a lose-lose situation and will pop up to bite one of you two later. Indeed, compromise is only acceptable if one of you turns out not to care all *that* much about the issue....a helpful tip to remember.

My girlfriend and I once fought about an issue for 18 months before finding a win-win solution.....mainly because if one of us compromised it would have haunted us later.

As far as win-win possibilities go, antique jewelry is a wonderful way to go. All of the jewelry will have a history and story related to it, and may cost less than "new" jewelry.

Also perhaps visiting a jeweler to discuss other gemstones would be helpful. My mother (a collector) showed me "Mystic Pink Topaz" the other day. It's an absolutely beautiful rose colored gem that seems to yank the light right out of the air and sparkle with blues, greens, purples, etc.

Good luck with the ring, the relationship, etc etc etc.

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[elmegil]

Oh please.

There are plenty of ways to make it a surprise without surprising her with a ring she will hate (diamond or no). My wife and I had everything about the ring set (easy for me actually: her father had passed away and her mother wanted my wife to have her ring), and actually were making other plans towards the wedding before the proposal and formal engagement. Fact remains, I still managed to surprise her.

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[mehip2001]

You could try what I did and suprise her with the band and give the satisifaction of picking the engagement ring. This realy helped as I have never been interested in jewerly and had no idea what to get. It worked out well as I found out that I would have most certantly picked the wrong cut and my wife realy did indeed pick something that cost less than I would have spent without her help.

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[Ryan Amos]

Actually the surprise engagement is generally a bad idea. The girl already knows the answer to the question before you ask anyway (she's been thinking about it since the day you met, trust me.) Sure, the surprise engagement is romantic and fun, but you have to know that both of you are prepared for it. Besides, you can still talk about it and have it be a surprise. For example, you've both been talking about it and planning things, then you pop the question on a scoreboard at a baseball game or something.

As for who to ask, well, the opinion of that one person matters much more than the opinion of us buffoons. ;)

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[Bodrius]

"A tatoo on your ass, now THAT lasts forever! :-)

As it turned out, she felt the same way, so we took a route that was appropriate."

Now, I have to ask... Did you really intend to write those two sentences together?

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[jafac]

You can always do the suprise engagement with a temporary ring, and then tell her - hey, your opinion is valuable to me, what do you REALLY want in an engagement ring?
Then go out and pick one or have one designed.

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[peeping_Thomist]

The girl already knows the answer to the question before you ask anyway (she's been thinking about it since the day you met, trust me.)

I'm sure that's true for a lot of people, but not for everyone. It certainly wasn't true for my wife. She had no intention of getting married. Wow, that was over 20 years ago!

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[Ironica]

I said even before my first marriage that I wouldn't consider marrying a guy I couldn't trust to pick out a ring for me.

That being said, I didn't leave either my ex or my current husband wondering... I found ways to inform them of exactly what kind of ring I wanted. The first proposal wasn't really a surprise, exactly, but he did fly 5,000 miles with the ring in hand. The second left me flabbergasted; in spite of the conversations, I really thought it would take him a while longer.

And here's a hint: if she hasn't managed to tell you what kind of ring she wants by now, there's three possibilities: (1) she doesn't care; (2) she doesn't want you to propose; (3) she doesn't have much sense and can bloody well deal with what you pick out. On the other hand, if you haven't been listening, the hints may be there and you'll have a heck of a time because you didn't pick up on them.

And a final note: I'm not someone who found the ring "unimportant." In fact, my first marriage probably would have ended sooner (by a few months, anyway) if I hadn't really, really liked the ring. I didn't want to take it off. ;-)

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[Troy]

Yikes.....

That's what I get for trying to insert a witty reamark after writing the entire message.

Just for the record, we skipped the tatoo route

Still shaking head in disbelief,

Troy

Re:Do you two talk to each other?

[VikingBerserker]

Here's a hint: if your significant other asks "Is it safe?" while poking at your teeth with dentistry tools, buy a diamond.

On the bright side, if divorce is in your future, tell her "Essen."

Re:Hmmm... TRADITIONS!? WTF!!!?

[Anonymous Coward]

it used to be tradition for every white family to have (and inherit) a family of black slaves.

nowadays, even the suggestion of such a thing disgusts many people.

times change. traditions change. break the mould, don't get stuck in it.

KISS

[kirkjobsluder]

We did simple silver bands but we allready had reputations for eccentricity.

Honestly this is a good litmus for idetifying who is worth having at your wedding and who is better off being left wondering where their invitation is. Those that respect your relationship will be more concerned with helping you through the hell that is wedding planning. The rest can politely be told where to stick it.

Try eBay

[taustin]

'nuff said.

Diamonds are semi-precious stones.

Show her your love is stonger than STEEL!

[KILNA]

My ring is from TeNo, stainless steel jewelry.

The engagement ring isn't about you

[serverboy]

I went through a similar debate (mostly around the stupidity of spending that kind of money) when I was getting engaged. A friend told me simple, sound advice, mainly; get the damn ring and make it a good one - no matter what your girlfriend says, she wants a diamond ring.

What's the first thing everyone will ask after she mentions she's engaged? That's right - let me see the ring. If you get her a diamond flake or something else, she'll feel shitty about it everytime and take it out on you.

My brother gave his fiancee a CZ. The engagement didn't last long (probably not related to the knock-off $200 ring, but who knows?!)

Seriously

[Snoopy77]

Marriage is all about what past events a partner can bring up in a fight in order to force the other to admit defeat.

Example:

Wife: Why didn't you take out the garbage?
Husband: I was in a hurry, couldn't you do it for once?
Wife: For once?!?! Let me tell you what I have to do ...

and so on until ...

Wife: And what about this damn engagement ring ... it's not even a diamond.

At this point the husband has lost.

So, buy the diamond, don't sleep around and you may win a fight now and then.

Re:Seriously

[NBarnes]

I have yet to meet someone who would inspire me to have a really serious ritual involving lifelong pledges. But if I were to meet someone like that, if they're not the sort of person who would, far from being put off by it, but would be, indeed, charmed and romanced by an aircraft-grade titanium alloy ring, then the relationship was doomed anyway.

Geek love is strong love.

[giggle]

[Black Parrot]

You're getting married, and you'r worried that diamonds are a big scam?

Re:[giggle]

[drpoo]

I'm with you buddy. Doesn't make much sense to question the one thing that is a least "real"--though worthless, but not even wonder if going through with marriage (another "time honored TRADITION") is that right thing to do. Marriage is only now good for poor people who marry a rich other and then divorce! get half! Run like hell! :-)

- Dr. Poo

Wow

[dghcasp]

Interesting article...

But I can't decide what my reaction should be:

• Rise up and Smash the State, or
• Dang, I gots ta get me one ah those car-tells...

Look for the Polar Bear

[Filter]

Simple...buy Canadian Diamonds.

Cubic Zirconium

[Qzukk]

My suggestion is that you buy your girlfriend a cubic zirconium ring, it looks the same to an untrained eye. Just because its cheaper doesn't mean get it bigger... then there will more eyes.

Next, explain this to your girlfriend. Don't try to pass it off to her, because it won't work. She's going to show it to her friends, and one of them is going to say "Honey, that's a zirconium. I've gotten three of them in my life." Or something like that.

She might even find it touching how you care about these people and are willing to buck "tradition" to show it. Explain that you're getting the cubic zirconium to keep up appearances, and then come up with something to make up for it. (Thinking about it, while you're bucking tradition, you could help pay for a bigger wedding...)

Your other choice is to talk it over with her first. Sure, it will take away the spontaniety of the whole "popping the question" thing, but it will avoid much grief on both your parts if she's not going to be happy with a cubic zirconium ring, or doesn't understand why you worry about "those grubby, leeching third-worlders". She's the only one to tell you for certain what an acceptable substitute would be.

The Rock

[Moorlock]

It's a rock, you dope!

Well, if people weren't willing to hand over tons of cash to overpay for somebody else's marketing campaign then more of the worthless a$$holes of the world would be asking us for change on the street instead of designing crass public art.

Really, now: Don't pretend you've got a brain and use it if you're going to hit its snooze button every time a Big Lie comes along.

Alternatives

[SRMoore]

My Dad got my Mom a pair of the original Advent speakers instead of an engagement ring over 30 years ago.
(And they still have and use those speakers.. some of the best I've ever heard.)

A theory about diamonds

[Avumede]

According to The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond, diamonds are a form of self-destructive competion for mates.

It's a similar situation to male peacock's tail feathers, which are obtrusive and make it difficult to walk around. A female, upon seeing such a male, will see that the bird has survived so far despite this massive tail that hinders its movements. Obviously it might be superior to a peacock that did not have such large tail-feathers, since that one did not have such a hurdle to go through. Sort of like if you see a skier with one leg, and a skier with two legs skiing down the mountain, you may assume the skier with one leg is a better skier, even though both are doing essentially the same thing.

So when you get a diamond, you are sending a signal that you can afford to spend money and still survive. The beautify of it is an extra. You might accomplish the same thing by wasting money in other ways as well.

This is Jared's speculation in this book. I'm not sure if I buy it, but it's an interesting theory anyway.

Trust me, diamonds are worth it

[Foxman98]

For all those doubting whether diamonds are worth it, please see this picture. You will learn to appreciate diamonds :-)

I doesn't matter

[MajorBlunder]

Regardless of what ethics you personally hold, the fact is that in our present culture the diamond ring is one of the penultimate status symbols for women. Regardless of what a woman says, if her man doesn't give her the best color/carat/cut/clarity that he can afford without going bankrupt, the she will carry a secret nugget of resentment for as long as the relationship will last.

You have been warned...

Re:I doesn't matter

[AxelBoldt]

Regardless of what a woman says, if her man doesn't give her the best color/carat/cut/clarity that he can afford without going bankrupt, the she will carry a secret nugget of resentment for as long as the relationship will last.

So the man has to sell out his principles to please his materialistic wife. Do his life-long resentments carry any weight at all?

Diamonds always have been sought after

[gupg]

Diamonds are a jewel that have always been sought after and have adorned crown jewels for ages (for example the Kohinoor Diamond that the British stole from India is in the British Royal Crown).

Diamonds are beautiful; hence, they do naturally make a good present to your loved one. The fact that they have been made engagement rings by a marketing campaign is no different from the fact that Christmas and Santa Claus have been commodotized by various marketing campaigns.

The fact of the matter is that the clothese we wear, our attitudes towards things etc, etc, etc are all shaped by media around us.

So, this is what is in now - diamonds are appreciated by women, so, naturally guys will buy them for girls ...

Imitation?

[kstumpf]

If it really bothers you that much, maybe she would be happy with an imitation diamond. She still gets the ring to show to her friends and to stand as... a symbol of commitment or what have you. With the money you save, spring for a really great honeymoon, or figure out some other way to spend the money that's memorable and perhaps more genuine then the ring. Then again, women are irrational and none of the above is likely to work. :)

Re:Imitation?

[daiajo]

Having been married for 9 years, and keenly observed the reaction of my wife and her friends to the real thing, vs the imitation, the imitation is often MORE GAUDY, and is received BETTER than the real thing.

IMO the way women think is the way it looks is the critical thing, the way it works can be easily overlooked, and is only important to the at most half of all women who even bother to consider it (referring to Zen & the Art of Motorcyle maintenance - people are either Form or Function).

You answered it yourself.

[pstreck]

You answered your question already.

diamonds have no resale value.

Buy a used diamond get a new ring for it and voila, you're the hero.

Re:Laptops are a girl's best friend

[skwirl42]

And why not? Oh wait... not everyone has the same fascination with antiques as I do... In any case, the point is, there are better gifts than diamonds. As far as gifts go, diamonds are rather shallow. They say something like "Everyone else is doing it, so I figured I'd do it too." What a way to show your love.

If you love her... well if she loves you...

[blunte]

"if you love her you'll get her a diamond"...

well if she loves you, that means allowing you to maintain your ethics, which in this case may mean no diamonds.

*gasp* some people actually buy plain gold bands for their symbols of unity.

of course I prefer titanium or titanium, but gold or silver or platinum is good too.

do what you believe in. if your wife to be can't handle that, you're in for bad times down the road.

Give it up

[Reality Master 101]

Unless your girlfriend is likely to buy into any of this, it's a battle you don't even want to bring up.

The one alternative is to (carefully) ask her if she would like to have a plain wedding band for the sake of not being ostentacious. You have to do this carefully, however, so it will not look like you're just a cheap bastard.

Failing that (and you probably will), take a visit to your local city's jewelry district. I got my wife's good sized diamond at about 1/3 the price of a jeweler. In particular I went to the jewelrly district in Los Angeles. The prices are awesome.

However, they will rip you off if you give them half a chance. Either go to someone who is recommended to you, or bring along someone who is knowledgeable. Someone who is good at negotiation doesn't hurt, either.

If you do end up going to a normal store (or God help you, the mall), don't be afraid to ask for a discount. If you're getting into high triple digits or quadruple digit dollars, they WILL give you a discount. All you have to do is ask.

Progress in synthetics

[Phronesis]

Progress in large gem-quality synthetic diamonds is proceeding so fast that DeBeers is developing quite sophisticated techniques (ultraviolet phosphorescence) to allow jewelers to tell synthetic from natural stones. Perhaps it will not be too long before the "conflict diamond" problem disappears because synthetics displace natural diamonds for most of the market.

A good account of the state of the art two years ago can be found in the transcript of a NOVA show on diamond synthesis: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2703diamo nd.html

When you send one of our diamonds to De Beers, right, the only way they can detect that this is not a natural diamond is really through phosphorescence. They take this, and they put in, they hit it with a UV light, and after the UV light goes off, this thing will phosphoresce for about three to five seconds. That is typical of a synthetic diamond versus a natural diamond.

...

NARRATOR:Faced with the future threat of synthetic diamonds being imperceptible to the trade, De Beers is already preparing its bottom line - one low-tech way to guarantee detection. They are putting minute logos on their diamonds.

STEPHEN LUSSIER: If we can give the consumer a little bit more help in telling him what's a good diamond, that regardless of what they know or what their jeweler knows, De Beers has told them that this diamond is natural from - as it came out of the ground, created by nature billions of years ago and not one that popped out of a machine last Wednesday in Kansas City.

Re:Progress in synthetics

[Dirtside]

It bothers me that the NOVA transcript has many instances of someone worrying about the "threat" of synthetic diamonds, without ever examining the assumption that synthetic diamonds should be considered a "threat". Yeah, there's an obvious explanation -- people want "real" things, not "fakes", but when the "real" and "fake" are effectively indistinguishable and share all the same properties and characteristics, who cares?

Re:Progress in synthetics

[Phronesis]

... the assumption that synthetic diamonds should be considered a "threat".

The people worrying about the "threat" on the show were mostly representatives of De Beers, to whom the significance of "threat" is obvious. The show as a whole was quite positive about the progress of synthetics and concluded with the same question you do: Why would anyone buy a natural diamond if a synthetic of comparable quality and several times the carat weight were available for the same price?

Re:Progress in synthetics

[eclectro]

Here is a couple of companies dealing in "synthetic" diamonds.

Gemesis (This was the company talked about in the PBS Nova show -- one of the best Novas IMHO)

Lucent Diamonds (The FAQ on this site is a very interesting read).

Here is a BBC show covering the same topic though somewhat dated.

Even though these might be considered "fake" diamonds, chemically they are the same. The reason they "phosphoresce" is that the growing pattern is different between the synthestic and natural diamonds.

Ultimately, as Nova pointed out, when synthetics overcome this last "hurdle" of difference it will come down to branding, and you already are seeing DeBeers doing that heavily on TV.

Its not surprising that the synthetic diamond makers are countering by calling their stones "cultured".

Expect to see this heat up as synthetics increase. The synthetic diamond makers are going to make a powerful arguement that their stones are more "ecologically and politically correct". They don't require strip mining the earth or are "blood diamonds" coming from some third-world country used to finance a war or slave labor.

Debeers is arguing that it is like buying a fake painting, not really a masterwork of nature, but by man's hand. It is an interesting thought exercize. Many natural gemstones are now heat and chemically treated to improve color before they are sold. So in a sense they have a "fake color". But yet they still find a ready market.

I expect the same will happen for synthetic diamonds. I for one think it will be a good thing, as DeBeers has been creating artificial scarcity and thus higher prices from their monopoly position. That is another story in itself.

Re:Progress in synthetics

[GrouchoMarx]

When you send one of our diamonds to De Beers, right, the only way they can detect that this is not a natural diamond is really through phosphorescence. They take this, and they put in, they hit it with a UV light, and after the UV light goes off, this thing will phosphoresce for about three to five seconds. That is typical of a synthetic diamond versus a natural diamond.

Dude, a diamond ring that glows in the dark under blacklight? That's BETTER than a slave mine diamond, who are they kidding? :-)

Re:Progress in synthetics

[FFFish]

Debeers is arguing that it is like buying a fake painting, not really a masterwork of nature, but by man's hand.

It'll be oh-so-easy for the diamond manufacturers to counter-advertise against DeBeers.

For starters, they only need to show a mangled slave child labourer, working the muck for pennies a day, diseased and dying in the effort to find a diamond for DeBeers.

Crazy about Love

[Beautyon]

You have some choices; you can buy gold wedding bands made from gold mined in Wales; no slave labor in Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwyll-llantysil iogogogoch methinks.

You can buy antique diamond rings; you will then not be supporting the modern diamond trade, and will also have something that has a determinable resale value for when you need to take back control of Slashdot.

Ethical / fair trading has entered into the cocoa and coffee sectors, but has yet to penetrate the diamond mining industry. This may be the way forward to stop the pernicious influence of the current buying and selling structure on the countries blessed with deposits. Until then, you have to either do without, or go antique to keep your wife's hands clean (literally).

pawn shops

[ksheff]

Yes, you're going to get screwed if you go to a traditional retail jewelry store. The markups are quite high. If you know enough about diamonds to recognize the 4C's yourself with an eye loop, go to a pawn shop that has a wide selection. They will be much lower in cost. If you can't find the exact ring you want, but have found one that has the jewel you want, buy it and take it to a repair shop. They will usually do customizations.

People die or get divorced all the time. If it's portable and has some value, sooner or later it will end up at a pawn shop.

This alternative really is FOREVER....

[purplebear]

Well, unless you have a minor surgery performed. Our neighbors, instead of wedding rings, got wedding tattoos. It really is the coolest thing. My wife and I are going to do the same on our anniversary.
It can never be lost. It doesn't ever need adjusted really, maybe touched up. And you can never just take it off, so you'll never have to be tempted. :) And that'll be one less thing for her to have to deal with on her normal female emotional roller coaster. No offense to the ladies here; it's just my experience.

We spent ~600 for all three rings...

[krinsh]

and our wedding bands have diamonds in them. If you are very concerned about 'artificially expensive' diamonds then don't buy them; if you ask the dealer and they are reluctant to give you the diamond's history then you don't need to buy from them. If they have certifications on the diamond; the research them - and don't buy any kind of insurance on the diamonds themselves they are easily replaced. I found out what we paid for was not our diamonds; but our settings - which was fine everything was 14K gold. When her wedding band needed a size change she lost two of the several tiny diamonds; the store replaced them for free.

a personal relationship issue

[fermion]

Diamonds seem like one of the greatest marketing scams of all time. Here is a rock that is not all that rare, and through cleaver marketing targeting the need for people to prove their love to each other and world monopoly status backed up by significant fire power, is considered the most precious and rare stone.

However, the marketing gimmick is the key. If the person you want wants a diamond, then you pretty much have to buy one. This is an issue just like any other in a relationship. If the money is not they're to buy one, and the person is willing to break off the relationship, I think that would be a harbinger of things to come.

hm.

[macsox]

i certainly appreciate the points that are made about how diamonds are mined and the impact on the regions that mine them.

but i bet if the diamond cost $45 and still had the same emotional impact, the issue wouldn't really come up.

(that said, i saw a cool site on the web once that would take an ekg from you or your loved one and inscribe on the inside of a plain platinum, gold or silver band. pretty neat. if i find the link, i'll post it.)

Why dont we see this commercial?

[H1r0Pr0tag0n1st]

"I helped kill a judge..."
"I helped buy Explosives..."
"I helped buy a gun..."

"I was just having fun"
"I was just tring to get laid"
"I was Just getting Married"

*annoucer voice* "If you buy dimonds, you support terrorism"

"My Fiance, my rules..."

fade to black
Is it just me or is the hipocricy disturbing?

Practical rules for the purchase

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had to purchase these things too many times and here's my advice:

If you don't have cash to burn -

1. Flaws are great if they can be covered by the prongs.

2. Crappy color looks better in a gold setting.

3. Choose size AND high flouresants (sp) over everything except naked eye flaws.

At the end of the day these things are friggin' worthless bits of highly compressed coal. So its the reactions of your wife's shallow and empty friends where you get your real money's worth... nothing pisses then off, and makes you look better than size and sparkle. Everything else is bullshit unless you've got cash to burn. In that case here's different advice.... Go for quality over size. If the word, economy or whatever goes to pot a quality stone will get you safe passage.

Alexandrite

[dkarney]

You could try Alexandrite. It is one of the most truly rare gems. (maybe THE most rare) And it changes colors, supposedly.

Re:Alexandrite

[DecoDragon]

And it changes colors, supposedly.
Most definitely. There are a couple of posters who describe there (including myself, earlier). I adore mine. You can have them grown for you. There is a lot of variability in color - if it's murky or more brilliant in color, and how different the color change is.

It's also on some of those birthstone lists for June.

The Gods Must Be Crazy

[Anonymous Coward]

Tradition? Gimme a friggin break. The US is too young to have traditions, kerr-rrrist. Women and diamond rings remind me of that movie, "The Gods Must be Crazy", where the natives find an empty Coke bottle and worship it as some kind of..umm...err...worshipped item. Seriously, women are like little monkeys when they see rings, but y'know, all it is, is a friggin rock attached to some shiny metal. "Oohh, look at shi-nee met-tal...perty, ain't it". Geez. Materialistic women need to get with reality and stop the pretentious b.s. If you love someone, it'll be in yer heart, not on a f@!*ckin finger. Leave the symbols to the symbol-minded (as a Carlinist I couldn't resist that one!). If you can't afford her, she's not worth it.

My wife is Japanese, and we didn't have to go through ANY of this lame b.s. We got married in Japan without a stadium-sized crowd and did a tea ceremony. There were no "trinkets" exchanged, only love expressed through ACTION. Now I'm all for diamond rings as a gift, or to show appreciation, but if a woman requires a ring for engagement - if it takes a manmade little rock and metal craft to make her smile, then her heart is in the wrong place.

Re:The Gods Must Be Crazy

[AdrianErickson]

That is a great movie and illustrates your point wonderfully. As I said in my long comment however, I still think the bride should have an assurance of fiscal well being instead.

That said, my mother is Korean and never wears her rings, not that they are all that great, but she's just not into it.

Re:The Gods Must Be Crazy

[bigberk]

"Oohh, look at shi-nee met-tal...perty, ain't it". Geez. Materialistic women need to get with reality and stop the pretentious b.s."

I'm still pretty young and I hang around with girls barely out of their teens that go crazy when they see even the crappiest plastic "jewelry" in the malls or at street side vendors. The point is that they're getting trained to adore this stuff. Don't think they're much more mature later on when they're making the same sounds and crooning over AWFULLY EXPENSIVE jewelry. Like many other things, people get trained from a young age to attach value to certain things, even if it's nonsensical. I know my dad didn't buy an expensive diamond ring for my mom, and they've been together for decades. They spend their money on more FUN things, like travel and food!

I see these diamond commercials on television and they almost make me puke. They are directed at women primarily and carry the message: "if your man does not buy you a diamond, then he doesn't really love you." Smart couples -- men and women -- can both see past that, and use their money more wisely. It's not about being "cheap" or "stubborn": it's all about being an individual and making your own choices as to how you're going to express your love and union -- instead of letting media and commercial interest guide your thoughts.

one word

[el_guapo]

"debeers" - diamonds aren't overly rare, they are expensive due to their monopoly. i've had a problem with this for some time and in fact have boycotted diamonds for my entire 34 year life - i bought my wife her current diamond only after 6 years of marriage cuz i found one at a jewelry store that was going out of business so i got a "relatively" good deal

But...

[taernim]

... how can you resist the commercials?

You know... it has the swelling music and the shadows and stuff.
If a diamond ring is good enough for a shadow lady, why isn't it good enough for yours?! ;)

Re:But...

[falzer]

Ever see the Family Guy episode where the shadow lady starts to go down on the man?

"Diamonds: She'll pretty much have to."

They're worth it

[Skyshadow]

WARNING: This is one of those situation where your girlfriend will look at you earnestly and say, "Honey, I don't need I diamond. I understand that they are artificially inflated in price and that the control of the diamond supply has caused incalculable suffering for third-world people over the years. I don't need one".

Hell, *she* might even believe it, but if you proceed not go get her one she will hold it against you the rest of her life. She'll show her mom and her friends the ring and get repeated "where's the rock, honey?" responses. When she's forty and has divorced you (at least party due to her deep-seated, semi-subconsious rage), she will tell her other single friends about you and they will laugh "Sex In The City"-style.

We all know that buying diamonds just enriches the DeBeers company and furthers their monopoly. We all know that it's a big scam. We all know we're tossing our money away on an essentially useless item which could become a commodity at any time. None of this matters.

Go to dirtcheapdiamonds.com or a trusted non-mall jeweler and buy the goddamn diamond. There's no way that the few thousand dollars you'd save would be worth the years of misery you'd be setting yourself up for.

Re:They're worth it

[realdpk]

Ha, I'd want her to divorce me if she was so petty as to have some "need" for a diamond to stay with me.

"There's no way that the few thousand dollars you'd save would be worth the years of misery you'd be setting yourself up for."

Which is worse, the misery of mindless materialism or the misery of being free of it? Heh..

Re:They're worth it

[fendel]

You gotta be kidding.

Let me give you one female geek's perspective. When things got serious with my guy, I said: "Don't even think about wasting your money on a diamond ring. It's pointless and gaudy and it'll snag on things. If we exchange rings at some point, I want to get simple matching gold bands."

And I meant it. Absolutely, 100%. None of my friends are going to put him down for not buying me a big honking rock, because none of them are shallow dingbats either. Guys, if you're with a woman who insists on a rock, think carefully about what you're doing. Chances are she's been brainwashed about lots of other crap too.

There are better ways to prove your love. Use your imagination.

Re:They're worth it

[Anonymous Cowtard]

It has nothing to do with her need nor a diamond as it has everything to do with her need to get rid of the cheap bum who tries to justify himself with "moral" bs. Would he really have done all this research about the "evils" of diamonds if he wasn't just trying to find a fucking excuse to use to get out of it?

Re:They're worth it

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's see here: Innocent children getting killed and forced into sex slavery versus making some girl happy and having to endure "misery".

Gee.

Tough decision. Heck its not my kids. Not my family.

But fuck that. Sorry but innocent kids win in my book every time.

All you losers out there who would gladly partake in the MURDER of children to make your own sorry lives a bit easier be glad it's not your own kids' lives you're sacrificing.

It's sad there are self centered people out there living with a "I dont care how many people I step on to live a luxurious life" attitude.

But remember ..what goes around comes around ..eventually.

Maybe I do fucking have morals.

Re:They're worth it

[Skyshadow]

Maybe I do fucking have morals.

Maybe you're seriously overgeneralizing.

Not all diamonds are conflict diamonds. If you're worried, buy Canadian.

One answer, eh? Ethical Canadian Diamonds

[Audent]

http://canadian-diamonds.theshoppe.com/canadian_di amond_mining.htm

to quote: Canadian diamonds treasured by the worlds diamond experts. Sought after for their incredible beauty and brilliance. Mined in accordance to the highest ethical standards.

I believe everything I read on the Internet, of course, but hey, worth a look - especially if you want to REALLY surprise her with the kneeling and the asking and the whatnot.

My wife is cool

[doog]

Seeing as how I had no idea how to pick a ring, I bought a $20 engagement ring for my wife. When I proposed I gave it to her and told her it was a symbol and that we could pick the ring of her choice for her. She refused and said she didn't want any other ring. She said that was the ring I gave to her and it was the most beautiful ring in the world.

Re:My wife is cool

[subtleluck]

ok, your wife IS mad cool...she is also is NOT a money grubbing bitch... as are most women you encounter in this day in age, does she have a sister????? jk :)...

Diamond Value and Scarcity

[JoeLeTaxi]

Kimberlite (the rock you find diamonds in) is plentiful, as are diamonds. More importantly, gemstone diamonds are very common as well. And yes, the price is artifically high. The world is not "running out" of diamonds like its running out of, say, oil. But so what. Come on in - the waters fine. You G. will love you forever. So suck it up.

Yuck.

[Kid Zero]

I wouldn't have bought a diamond, if I'd had to. I have problems with them, and my wife hates them. Her opinion is "don't waste that much cash on a stupid stone!"

I love her.

Try Emeralds

[freakinPsycho]

Better than diamonds or opals are emeralds.

Emeralds are actually more rare than diamonds, and so are worth more.

Re:Try Emeralds

[scotch]

My Belly-Button lint is extremely rare, but worth almost nothing.

Value, worth, social pressures, and traditions are all arbitrary. Decide if you're someone who likes to go along or rebel or somewhere in between, then get on with your life.

Re:Try Emeralds

[joeytsai]

Emeralds are actually more rare than diamonds, and so are worth more.

Rarity has nothing to do with value. Indeed, diamonds are only about as rare as quartz. The reason why diamonds are so expensive is because DeBeers has a monopoly over them.

In terms of utility, diamonds are valuable. They're definitely pretty, and their incredible hardness makes them extremely useful.

However, neither rarity nor utility is the reason they're so damn expensive. An item is worth what people will pay for it, and since most people don't mind forking over a ludacrious amount of money for the rock, DeBeers will gladly continue charging that much for them.

Re:Try Emeralds

[scotch]

Be, Al, Si, and O are all renewable resourcesd.

Re:Try Emeralds

[polymath69]

Funny the way this thread has unfolded. I designed my wife's ring to have a black opal, a ruby, and an emerald, with the black opal in the center to sort of 'connect' the colors. Symbolism all over the place. Her birthstone and mine, and the emerald 'cause it's always been my favorite, so it can represent her being "my favorite."

She dug it plenty, and still digs it plenty. (How can one consult with one's intended on the ring design if the proposal is supposed to be a surprise?)

But that black opal was by far the largest part of the ring's cost.

Re:Try Emeralds

[Unknown Relic]

This entire discussions, specifically on the rarity of different jem stones made me think of a book I recently read: Shock Wave by Clive Cussler. While it is a work of fiction it takes a deep look at the greed surrounding the diamond cartels. I would definately recommend it for anyone interested in an entertaining read.

Re:Try Emeralds

[will_die]

Yes but you don't have advertising going for your belly-button lint. Send a few million on TV spots and you could raise the vaule of your lint.
Being famous would also do it.

Re:Try Emeralds

[m0nkyman]

are you both on crack? emeralds and opals? for a ring to be worn every day! Christ on a crutch... two of the most fragile stones ever to be overpriced... goddam... for emerald substitute a really nice tsavorite garnet... as for opal, well... protect it well or you are going to break it.... and make sure it's not a doublet or triplet... or it'll delaminate eventually.

Re:Try Emeralds

[RegularFry]

I haven't seen any other suggestions anywhere for this, and I have no idea why, but sapphires make a damn fine choice. My mother's a jeweller, and she made a sapphire, silver and gold band for a friend of mine to propose with, and it looked absolutely gorgeous on the finger. Thing was, he was a student at the time, so it was a cabochon-cut synthetic sapphire. Thus not only geek factor grooviness (used as bearings in watches and in nonlinear optics), but an incredibly intense blue colour to boot.

Re:Try Emeralds

[Herbmaster]

Rarity has nothing to do with value. Indeed, diamonds are only about as rare as quartz. The reason why diamonds are so expensive is because DeBeers has a monopoly over them.

I've heard this argument before, and I'm just not convinced. DeBeers may (does) have a monopoly on the retail sale of diamonds in most of the world. It seems to me if they are able to have a monopoly on the natural supply of diamonds from the Earth, that implies diamonds must be pretty rare.

Suppose you wanted, for some reason, to have a monopoly on the natural supply of quartz. What percentage of the land surface of the Earth would you have to own / control? 10%? 5%? 1%? We know quartz is not rare, and - correct me if I'm wrong about the diamonds - is available in much larger unbroken pieces than diamonds are with great frequency. DeBeers is a huge empire, but I seriously doubt they control even close to 1% of the land surface of the planet. If diamonds are truly not rare, I should be able to find diamonds own my own, given the proper tools, on the other 99% of the planet.

Re:Try Emeralds

[will_die]

Perfect and large diamonds are rare.
However regular diamonds are not, they are alot like oil, plentiful all over the world. Just hard to get in some places then in others. Also debeers has vast quantities so that if someone tries to market diamonds of a certain quality they flood the market driving down prices and making it un-resonable that someone will attempt to compete against them. The russians tried this and failed.
If you want to go dig diamonds the US has a park that allows you to do that. Thier are alot of rumor about this places including that debeers used thier power to close down the area from normal mining and make it a national park. Probabably some truth to that, the US just did that again with clean coal after some people who make thier fortunes from selling clean coal to the US did not want us to mine our own.

They just want them

[tooth]

I'm not sure why, but my gf just wants one.. and soemtimes i feel as if she thinks that it is more important than the whole "getting engaged" thing. Bit of a worry when a lump of rock becomes more than what it represents....

The diamond must cost at least three months salary

[rks404]

At least that is the guideline that DeBeers used to advertise. For someone making 50k a year, that would be about $8,000 after tax. Perfectly reasonable.

Don't get suckered. Hopefully your fiance is as reasonable as you.

Not just advertising...

[Will_Malverson]

In his book "Hidden Order: The Economics of Everyday Life", David D. Friedman says that there is another reason for the growth in engagement rings over the past century. In a nutshell:

Premarital sex was not invented in the 1960s, and has in fact been around ever since just before the first marriage. Of course, back in the good old days, a good girl would never have sex before wedlock. However, some were willing to bend the rules once they were engaged. So, men quickly discovered that you could ask a woman to marry you, have sex with her, and then break off the engagement.

Up until 1935, this was considered an actionable tort in 47 of the 48 states. A woman who was deceived in this way could sue for the value of her lost virginity and subsequent difficulty in acquiring a husband. State legislatures passed laws against these suits in the 1930s and 1940s.

So, after this ability was removed, women needed a new way to ensure that a man proposing marriage really meant it. It became social custom that a man asking for marriage would post a performance bond equivalent to about twice his monthly salary. This bond would be forfeitable upon his breaking off of the engagement, but returnable if she broke off the engagement. This 'bond' was implemented as a diamond ring, because it was an easy way to, er, 'crystalize' two months of his salary in an easy-to-handle package.

In essence, the engagement ring is a private reimplementation of a canceled government policy.

Re:Not just advertising...

[Cryptnotic]

No. It is based on the concept that whether a woman enjoys sex or not, she should try to profit in some way (either by acquiring a happy marriage or by acquiring vaulable goods). A woman who does it only for pleasure is a whore.

Re:Not just advertising...

[alienmole]

Isn't that based on the concept that the woman didn't want to get laid?

Yes, but that's a valid concept. Sociobiologically speaking, woman are necessarily much more selective than men about getting laid, since it "costs" them more - a bit of pre-contraceptive logic which has not yet been bred out of the human genetic makeup. The usual way to be selective is to demand proof of worth and commitment, both of which have been socially encoded in diamond rings (by a DeBeers ad campaign ;)

Re:Not just advertising...

[Rasta Prefect]

No. It is based on the concept that whether a woman enjoys sex or not, she should try to profit in some way (either by acquiring a happy marriage or by acquiring vaulable goods). A woman who does it only for pleasure is a whore.

Hmmm...I thought that doing it for profit was the definition of a whore...

Re:Not just advertising...

[caramuru]

I just bought my wife of 30 years (in a few weeks) an "upgrade" of the engagement ring that I bought for her in 1972. I spent approximately two months take-home salary on the upgrade. Did I spend this money to get laid? Hardly not. Is it some of the best money I have ever spent? Absolutely.

Re:Not just advertising...

[Amazing Quantum Man]

No, the concept wasn't that. A woman who did it for profit was a whore. A woman who did it for pleasure was a slut.

DISCLAIMER FOR THE POLITICALLY CORRECT: The terms "whore" and "slut" are relevant to the time period referred to original posting. I am in no way, shape, or form, referring to anyone on Slashdot (or anyone they know) as a slut or a whore. Well, maybe a karma whore, but that's a different thing.

Re:Not just advertising...

[afidel]

I think he meant slut, not whore.

Re:Not just advertising...

[NMSpaz]

The problem with this explanation is that, a) the "tradition" has outlived the courtship customs that supposedly gave rise to it. If the economic explanation is the correct one, why do we *still* do this? and b) why diamonds? Diamonds are very fragile-- they're flammable and they shatter. The "diamond is forever" is just hype-- sure they're very hard to scratch, but that's one measure of a gem's durability. Since they can't be resold well, it's utility as "payment" for a failed commitment is limited. The "value" of a diamond is all artifical and could collapse at any time (and nearly has on occasion). So why diamonds? Why not some jewelry that had *real* worth?

Re:Not just advertising...

[roju]

Premarital sex was not invented in the 1960s, and has in fact been around ever since just before the first marriage.

Do I even have to say it? Take your pick:

1. All sex before the first marriage was premarital sex. [This was the obvious one]
2. Since there was was no marriage, there could be no such thing as premarital sex - there was only sex. Thus, no one had premarital sex before the first marriage.

Geeky aside from (2):

If the first two people to get married had sex before their marriage, then the first premarital sex actually occured at the moment of the first marrage. Since premarital sex didn't exist until the first marriage, they would just have been having sex; however, the moment they wed, that sex would be retroactively defined as premarital sex. So, the first premarital sex occured at the time of the first wedding.

Re:Not just advertising...

[Cryptnotic]

Oops. Yes, I meant slut, not whore.

Re:Not just advertising...

[ShooterNeo]

Since "at the time of the first wedding" implies that the first premartial sex act occurred DURING the cermony...

I can just picture it : the first caveman "marriage". "You may now fuck the bride". Ook ook!

Re:Not just advertising...

[NeMon'ess]

Thank Jesus for sluts! More sex for women and men.

Hey, any good Christian already disapproves of sleeping around, so I'm just throwing fuel on the fire.

Re:Not just advertising...

[BethLogic]

After a discussion with a couple of my friends we came up with another explaination on why women are receive jewels (of all kinds) as presents. It's a kind of property that women could own back in the day when women weren't allowed to own land and didn't work that much. They are relativly valueable for their size, easy to store, and if she ever needed some financial independence, she could sell them.

No rocks here...

[zemkai]

I guess I was fortunate in that my wife doesn't care for diamonds. She is, however, fond of tradition, so we found one that worked well from that perspective -- a claddagh.

A Claddagh is a traditional Irish design: hands supporting a heart topped by a crown. Depending on how it is worn (left hand / right hand, heart or crown "worn in"), it can specify friendship to engagement to marriage.

There are many, many jewelers and artists who offer claddaghs, so you're sure to find one that will suit style and budget. As it happened, we chose a simple rose-gold claddagh from MacManus and Sons.

Good luck, hope this helps, and congrats!
-ZK-

Just get her a really tiny one, besides...

[Jonny Ringo]

Its not the size that matters, but how well it cuts through glass. :-)

Buy used

[Jeremi]

If new diamonds are sold at an artificially inflated price, and are impossible to return, why not buy a used diamond from someone? Then you can take the money you saved and buy your fiance a nice (car/mink coat/honeymoon trip/LinuxPC/whatever) as well.

Or am I being hopelessly naive somehow? (it wouldn't be the first time ;^))

Engagement rings...

[TheSHAD0W]

The long-standing tradition of a diamond engagement ring was manufactured in 1939. Prior to that, mostly royalty indulged in the idea. It was only after the big diamond discoveries in South Africa caused diamond prices to plummet that DeBeers used an advertising campaign to popularize the rings.

I recommend a good opal ring. Beware of manufactured opal (though it's usually more spectacular than natural opal), and beware of a honey-orange colored opal that may have been colored artificially using a particle beam and may actually be radioactive!

Your getting married?

[avandesande]

Get used to it, this is one of many comprimises your gonna have to suck up.

Buy from a local artist

[grey40]

Why not get a custom made ring from a local jeweler/Artist? A major cost (and value) in the ring is the artistry/work in making the ring and setting, and if you have a nice setting, you can have an impressive ring with a smaller stone. And it probably has more resale value. Supporting local/struggling artists is always nice, and you get great value for money.

diamond alternative

[mediahacker]

How 'bout Moissanite?

http://www.moissanitejewelry.com/

These were originally fairly rare but are now a sideline of blue LED manufacture (high geek-quotient). Little bit softer than diamond but higher index of refraction ( more sparkle ) and much much cheaper...

Re:diamond alternative

[Kracko]

Moissanite definitely has my vote© I bought a engagement ring/wedding band set that had a large moissanite primary stone ¥6©5mm, 1©25ct diamond equivilent and four smaller diamond baguettes, for under $1100©

Its a gorgeous set, as she will attest© And with the extra cash, were able to get out of our apartment and into a house!

Titanium?

[gyges]

Titanium worked for me and represented all the facets of my relationship that I wanted incorporated the presentation of a ring. Choose your metal, chose your stone. Make it meaningful and that is all you need (but $$$$ spent don't hurt your case either). Sorry for the sappiness but after 7 years its all I have.

Reset a family heirloom

[signe]

When I proposed to my fiancee a couple months ago, I didn't have a ring at all. We joked that she was getting a $300,000 ring, the house we were in the process of contracting to be built. And she was just fine with this. However, a ring is expected by a lot of people. And she did want one to show off. Plus we had the perfect idea. She had her grandmother's ring, which had 3 diamonds in a rather ugly setting (everyone agrees on this, even her mother). We had it reset in a platinum and gold setting for a relatively reasonable cost. And it's better than any ring I could have bought her.

You can always get another stone as well. There is no rule that says it has to be a diamond. The first engagement ring I bought, several years ago, was a created sapphire. There are many semi-precious stones out there that are quite beautiful. Depending on your girlfriend's preferences, you may have a lot of options.

Having said that, if she wants a diamond, then it's worth it to get it. Just keep in mind that you don't need an internally flawless diamond. A VVS1 or 2 will do just fine, and a VS1 or 2 is going to be OK too. As you have noted, diamonds really don't have a resale value, and how many people are going to be looking at it through a scppe after you purchase it? Same goes for color. Get a G-H, or F. And as for the carats, you'll pay a bit less if you stay just under the round numbers, so .95 instead of 1.

The one thing you really want to make sure is excellent is the cut. This is something you want to be as close to ideal as possible. A friend of mine recently got married, and her well-off husband got her a rather large diamond for her engagement ring. When I looked at it, I was horribly underwhelmed. It was a poor cut, and reflected very little light. It looked flat. And this is not a man that I would have expected to miss the details.

I know you know the 4 Cs, but it's always worth repeating, and elaborating on how to get a better deal using what you know.

-Todd

Re:Reset a family heirloom

[nick_davison]

There is no rule that says it has to be a diamond. The first engagement ring I bought, several years ago, was a created sapphire.

Perhaps there is a rule, alluded to by your statement.

Just as gravity was still there before Newton discovered it, there may still be a rule regarding engagements and diamonds - you just simply haven't discovered it yet.

Re:Reset a family heirloom

[signe]

Wow, it's amazing how you know so much about my ex-fiancee and our situation that you can make assumptions and generalizations based on that. Perhaps your relationships have been with people so shallow that the type of jewlery you buy has a great bearing on the status of your relationships. Mine have not.

For your information, she didn't like diamonds at all. Something which she expressed very clearly, on several occassions, when the discussion wasn't about rings or anything else that I would be getting her.

Fuck you.

-Todd

Re:Reset a family heirloom

[Swaffs]

"There is no rule that says it has to be a diamond. The first engagement ring I bought, several years ago, was a created sapphire."

"First" being the key word there, I think...

Re:Reset a family heirloom

[signe]

You can read my response to nick for the rest of the message. But I'll repost the summary here for you as well.

Fuck you.

-Todd

Re:Reset a family heirloom

[maxume]

well said, but I couldn't help but notice a bit of irony between your statement, and your sig.

Re:Reset a family heirloom

[Swaffs]

It was just a joke man.

Don't get her a ring.

[Pig Hogger]

Dont get her a ring. Nothing at all. If you both really love each other, you don't need trinkets to mark it. Or if you want a bit to mark that milestone, have a picture taken of both of you at the moment.

If she insists on having a ring, she's a goldigger.

If her friends pester her for not having a ring, and she then pesters you afterwards, since you're on Slashdot, you're too smart for that kind of broad. Ditch the bitch, then.

Re:Don't get her a ring.

[The Dobber]

I know someone who ain't gonna be get some anytime soon.

Then again, with a nick like that.......

Re:Don't get her a ring.

[Pig Hogger]

Yadda, yadda, yadda. I've been 10 years with the same SO.

The Beige Stone

[Wyatt Earp]

It's not flamebait or anything.

But ever since I started to collect stones and read up on stuff, I always thought diamonds are the blandest gem stone.

Then I found out about the crap behind them. DeBeers are IMHO the worst, right up there with the Cocaine Cartels in South America.

They hose the damned things up in Namiba in the sand off-shore by the ton. It's about as rare as gravel.

I'll never get my woman a diamond. If she's that caught up in a ugly stone that a bunch of death peddlers horde, she's not for me.

it's easy if its real love

[Mordac]

My wife was also someone who dislikes the diamond cartel. So we found a beautiful stone that really looks good on her. Spent the money on a good setting, and then had 2 diamond flakes (.25 pt) added for accents and distraction to friends. Heck those flecks could be made by black and decker for all I know/care. The center stone was gorgeous, more personal and a huge savings on money (has resale, the main poster is right, Diamonds are worth nothing.)

there's more interesting gems in the world

[wren]

ObI'mAGirlPost: I think most diamonds are boring. Yeah, sure, they're well nigh indestructible...but most engagement rings (of a certain dollar amount within the range of your average-cubicle-dweller salary) I've seen look much the same. Some sort of gold band, adorned or unadorned, with a mounted diamond. Bleh.

My own engagement ring, FWIW, is plain platinum/gold with 5 blue/blue opals flush-mounted. In natural light, it's like having ever-changing prismatic electric blue LEDs on my finger. Very cool, but very fragile (hence the flush mount). At a local jeweler, I've seen black opals with red and green fire, and green opals with red and blue fire; don't go for the common (cheap) milky white.

An antique diamond ring would be *much* more interesting than a new one...but of course the diamond would be small. I suppose it depends on whether size matters ;) Given a choice, I'd opt for a *real* emerald, which IIRC is karat for karat more expensive than diamonds.

I gave in - but I got something in return..

[larzgold]

I have been married for 8 years, and got engaged about 9 years ago. I gave in after all the hem'ing and haw'ing from my wife, but I got to give me an engagement gift. I got a laser printer. So although I paid probaby 10x more for the diamond, I figured if I did not get married or she split at least I got a laser printer out of it. Larry

Deal with it Economically

[hackwrench]

Does she want a portion of your combined worth sunk into a diamond or put towards your empire...
...hmm too bad empires have become passe these days.

titanium wedding rings

[Sarunas]

titanium wedding rings are pretty nifty. it'd be cool to find ones made out of other out-of-the-ordinary materials. maybe get one of those iButton deals as the ring, so your s.o. can access your futuristic house without keys. it's the ultimate sign of your love, that you give them access to the inner sanctum.

Buy her Gold!!!

[TheNarrator]

Gold will always have resale value because it is an exchange traded commodity. If worse comes to worse you can always melt it down and sell it for $310 an ounce or more, if the price goes up. If you want to see the live price of gold you can go to Kitco and watch the value of your jewelry go up and down.

An Article Full of Holes

[EchoMirage]

From the article:

The diamond engagement ring is a 63-year-old invention of N.W.Ayer advertising agency. The De Beers diamond cartel contracted N.W.Ayer to create a demand for what are, essentially, useless hunks of rock.

63 years old? That wouldn't explain the Crown Jewels of England or the historicity of diamonds' value dating back hundreds of years.

You can only sell it at a diamond purchasing center or a pawn shop where you will receive a tiny fraction of its original "value."

...or because it takes a professionally-certified gemologist to discern the actual quality of a gem. Of course diamonds have no value on eBay - people don't want to buy them without certificates of authenticity, an AGA-backed jeweler to verify them, etc.

Of course, if this were true it would mean that apparantely all insurance companies have been duped as well.

The valid points of the objections are that the diamond trade has been used to propagate slavery, fuel wars, etc. Many jewelers can now tell you the exact origin of your diamond, from mine to showroom.

Re:An Article Full of Holes

[Chasuk]

Quote from the article:

The diamond engagement ring is a 63-year-old invention of N.W.Ayer advertising agency.

Your refutation:

63 years old? That wouldn't explain the Crown Jewels of England... or the historicity of diamonds' value dating back hundreds of years.

The Crown Jewels of England is not an engagement ring, and the historicity issue is moot, as the original article makes no claims regarding the value of diamonds pre-1870. In fact, the article implies that diamonds were highly valued pre-1870 due to their (then) scarcity.

or because it takes a professionally-certified gemologist to discern the actual quality of a gem.

Diamonds have little intrinsic value; it should thus be obvious that the real job of the professionally-certified gemologist is to inflate the value of his or her merchandise using arbitrary standards. If the value of a diamond lies in its beauty (add other criterion as needed), then I shouldn't need an "expert" to quantify or qualify what is an entirely subjective matter.

Of course, if this were true it would mean that apparantely all insurance companies have been duped as well.

Irrelevant and illogical when applied to this argument. First, because insurance companies make money selling you insurance for percieved value, not actual value, and this applies equally to diamonds, foreign sports cars, or works of art. Second, because it is perfectly possible, and not germane, that insurance companies are duped on this scale. That the number of persons or companies being duped seems improbable is not a valid refutation.

Just my .02 cents worth.

Re:An Article Full of Holes

[Super_Frosty]

Bullshit. Try selling a diamond back to the *same* jeweler that you bought it from, after the refund period has expired.

He won't buy it!

Diamonds are a worthless marketing creation.

Who Needs Diamonds? Well, Big Ones.

[Jason Scott]

My girlfriend made it VERY clear she didn't want a big fat-ass diamond on her hand; she wanted something special. Black Pearl was mentioned, and so I had a mutual jeweller friend whip up a nice ring that I presented to her in the back of a Checker Marathon taxicab in Kalamazoo Michigan.

The ring's main item is a BLACK PEARL. Let me tell you, that gets a lot more attention than any diamond.

It looks like
this and this.

At the last second, I asked that he throw a few token diamonds around the edge. They were tiny, almost ornamental. And the ring barely scraped four figures. Barely.

Best choice we ever had, avoiding the fat-ass diamond.

Titanium is the way

[Kazir]

I've had two sets of friends buy titanium wedding rings. They're nice, can have some good looking designs, and are highly durable.

One friend bought them in a jewelry store. The other bought their's online, though I don't know what site. (Just search Google)

Re:Titanium is the way

[retro128]

And they're great for opening beer bottles in a pinch!

It Depends on the Girl

[weston]

It depends on the girl. If you propose to someone who sees through the Matrix, then there are other possibilities. Seriously, I know a few girls that honestly don't care. Two of my friends married with gold bands, and others who saw this said they'd do the same. Another friend of mine is single, but she says she doesn't want a diamond for exactly the same reason as the article submittor mentioned; she's too conscious both of the direct abuses of the industry and the costs to society when we're sold a bill of goods that way.

There's also a whole set of people who are in between. They don't really care about the diamond, but they do care about the appearances and don't want to take flak from society. I know a number of couples in this category who've just gone cubic zirconia.

There are also girls who are totally caught by the mythos the diamond/jewelry people have sold society. If you think your life will be happier living with one of these girls, then your choice is clear. You pay the price, just like you pay the price by accepting the downsides of anyone's character in return for the positives and possibilities they have to offer.

A friend of mine from a very outside-the-mainstream family actually makes jewelry. She took a guitar string, and very neatly rolled it up into a ring for me (this is harder to do well than it sounds). She knew I was thinking about a special someone, and suggested I take it to a smith and have them coat it with a prescious metal (so's not to turn one's finger green, a practical consideration, as well as the aesthetic value), and give it to said someone. Anyone who knows me would know there was a lot of personal meaning tied up in the gesture. Enough to overpower the personal legend marketed to women? Again, it would depend on the woman. But I'm toying with the idea of proposing that way (if not actually leaving said ring as the sole physical token), and I think that how a potential fiancee/wife would respond to that might say a lot about her potential as a suitable fiancee/wife for me.

Why not just search for "responsibly" mined diamon

[StArSkY]

I wouldn't look for an alternative, I would just look for a responsibly mined dimaond. I would look for companies that sell diamonds mined from developed nations like Australia. Eg Rio Tinto mines diamonds at the Argyle mine in Western Australia. They are relatively unique, and the company has very progressive policies towards working with the indigenous residents that live in the area. If it is a little hard to find them, then look for a PINK diamond. they are absolutely beautiful, and 95% of them come from the Argyle Diamond mine in Western Australia. This way, in the words of Aali G you can "bone two birds with one cock". You can get something unique and beautiful, it is still a diamond, and you know it is not from a cartel, or involved slave labor. Just my thoughts for the day... You can find information on Argyle Diamonds Here

Jeez

[shepd]

This is so easy its another waste of my time.

Tell her this:

"Honey, would you rather have a diamond ring, or (insert equivalently expensive item here)"?

Then she can decide. Problem solved. Everyone wins. She can't hold it against you because you let her decide. Winners all around, no one goes out with a sad face.

Estate Jewelry

[Iesu]

If you just want to save money (as opposed to helping stop Osama) and you want a more interesting piece, try an estate jeweller or a jeweller who sells pieces on consignment. Sure, it's "used", but it's pretty easy to find really, really cool rings with a satisfyingly chunky diamond. The ring I picked up was a very thin white gold band with a few very tiny diamonds along the band, and a sort of twisted-rope pattern in the setting. Unique without being gaudy or plain. Nice big rock. Very affordable.

Bottom line, pre-owned jewelry is the easiest way to afford something you can't get at a mall store, and you won't get fleeced. :)

What's the big deal with diamonds?

[dunkstr]

I fail to see why everyone always sees diamonds as such an evil investment. They are by no means the only thing that siphons consumer's money into sketchy domains. I'm sure almost every industry has its gray areas. To tell the truth, you can seldom tell where your money's going.

For instance, I imagine when you buy firearms you're indirectly funding the R&D and production of weapons that may be used by terrorists. Also, many tree-hugging "I wouldn't hurt a fly" hippies turn a blind eye to the cold blooded killings that brought them their mind-altering drugs.

On a less brutal stage, every time you see a movie you're helping the MPAA lobbyists. When you go to yor friendly neighborhood dry-cleaner you may actually be funding laundering of a different sort. Who knows? Maybe your paper boy is using your money to buy hamsters to torture.

Hell, even taxes go towards things I'm sure you'd find distasteful (although we don't really have a choice here). I'm not saying we should just ignore the suspicious money trail; it is a problem. But why the particular emphasis on diamonds?

Re:What's the big deal with diamonds?

[illerd]

Beacause their value is completely artificial and the brutality that the diamond trade has brought is more vicious and more obvious than any of those examples by a very wide margin. That, and the cartel has completely fooled the American public for much of the last century. I can tolerate my money being missused, but only up to a certain point. DeBeers crossed that point, turned around and shot it in the face. And they've been laughing about it for decades.

Re:What's the big deal with diamonds?

[nagora]

I'm sure almost every industry has its gray areas.

There's nothing grey about the diamond industry, it's black from top to bottom. Plus, diamonds are only expensive because they are kept that way; they are not nearly as rare as DeBeer's would have you think. In the 70's the board of DeBeers actually considered hireing ships to take diamonds out into the Atlantic to dump them. Ship loads. That's not a rare commodity.

TWW

Resale Value?

[jgrosman]

Why do you care about the resale value of an engagement ring?!?!?

Most stores have a buy back period, so if she turns you down, you can just get a refund or store credit. Otherwise, there should be no reason to try to get money back from the diamond. It's hers, for keeps.

Alternative stones are quite nice, such as emeralds, saphires, or opals, and make a definite statement. Also, I've heard that watches make very nice engagement gifts. I would check with your future fiancee before getter her anything other than diamond, though. Girls can be rather picky about that sort of thing.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!!

[Brightest Light]

Alright. Let's review. You post on Slashdot. You have a girl you are going to marry.
You are a nerd with a girlfriend.
Most of the people here rarely talk to girls (no, its not flamebait; im one of them), let alone marry them! Buy her a diamond ring you idiot!

Re:WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!!

[nido]

Most of the people here rarely talk to girls (no, its not flamebait; im one of them), let alone marry them! Buy her a diamond ring you idiot!

Some tips here that can help your confidence/technique in talking to girls. (heh, so it's an affiliate program. [blue links are free] go there, grab some search terms, find free info, if you must)

Don't be a moron

[Geeyzus]

My girlfriend understands my thoughts regarding diamonds, but deep down, I'm sure she would like a diamond. Even a small one.

Then BUY HER ONE!!!!!

I'm not married, but I am in a serious relationship and have been for about 4 years. I'm sure I'm not the first to tell you this, but if you love her, right now is not the best time to wage your anti-tradition diamond ban. You don't want to spend a ton? Buy a smaller diamond, you said yourself she will probably still want at least a small one.

And if resale value is a major concern, is this a person you really feel comfortable proposing to / marrying? Be sure before you buy the rock. And good luck!

Mark

EVERYONE buys a diamond. . . .

[Salgak1]

. . . .then again, everybody thinks Windoze is wonderful, and Bill Gates is on the short list for sainthood.

I'm going to assume that your intended is a one-of-a-kind woman. So why does she deserve the same sort of engagement ring that everyone and his brother gets ??

I bought my wife an antique amethyst ring at a jeweler's Estate Sale. Pretty, different, and most of all, UNIQUE, just like my wife. She loved it. Mind you, I spent several hours going through the estate jewelry for just the the right piece, but my wife was worth it. She still is. Isn't YOURS worth some unusual effort as well ???

Re:The diamond must cost at least three months sal

[WildBeast]

What the. That's all my lifes savings.

Sapphires

[theinfobox]

I was lucky... my wife didn't like diamonds! A lot of people like them only because they are suppose to. My wife was very objective about it. She wanted a pretty ring and decided that diamonds were just plain boring. In the end, we decided on a sapphire. She loved the dark blue stone, it was my birthstone, and ol' Charles gave one to Princess Di (not that either of us give a crap about Princess Di, but it was good ammo for the girlfriends biggest diamond contest).

I say go for something different... An engagement is about the most personal relationship you will ever have. Make the ring just as personal... not some competition!

Re: Sapphires

[Zopilote]

Here's what I did. I took my girlfriend to several jewelry shops and let her point out to me the rings she liked. The whole thing was great fun for her, trying on rings and viewing how they looked on her hand. Meanwhile, I memorized the looks of the rings she liked best.

Then, I designed a ring that had the best features of all of them (basically I just drew up my ideas freehand). I sent the designs to my brother, who is an apprentice jeweler, and had him make the ring out of platinum. For the stones, I chose a large natural Yogo sapphire. These are very rare natural sapphires found only in Montana, and are deemed to be among the most beautiful sapphires in the world due to their perfect color. The one I chose was almost as expensive as a diamond of equal size (around $3k) and will hold its value much better. On each side of the sapphire I had him mount a small diamond (about 0.2 carat) which really accented the look.

Let me tell you, she loved the ring! Not only was it different and beautiful because of the sapphire, it was custom-designed by me. She proudly showed it off to all her friends, who had nothing to say once they saw it and heard that I had designed it myself. In fact, some of them even turned to their boyfriends/husbands and impishly asked them why they couldn't do something that sweet. Just like girls!

As guys, sometimes we may feel oppressed by what we view as the irrational requirements of our beloved better halves. But if you take to it with a good attitude and do something really original, it can be fun for you too. It certainly was for me!

You can check out pictures of the ring here.

Re: Sapphires

[BravoZuluM]

Nice Ring. When I heard you designed it, it brought back memories of a previous fiance that had designed her ring. It was garish.

Here comes the cultural clash.

[tshak]

Disclaimer: I view men and women as equals and concluding otherwise is taking this post out of context.

Personally, I'll pay the extra money for a fine metal because I DO care about the quality of an engagement ring. However, a high quality metal and rare stone a $5K ring is not. The problem we have here is a market force that has created a cultural "need" for women to have an overpriced piece of trash on their finger. Women on one hand want to be treated equally, but on the other hand want us to spend a rediculous amount of money on virtually nothing. Not only is this an insult to their intelligence, it is pure hypocracy. Until women Get Over It men will be pressured into "showing their love" through thousands of dollars while a few businessmen laugh at the cultural flaw that makes them billions.

Jewelery is worthless.

[NiGHTSFTP]

1oz Gold. Go to a gold dealer. :)

For an actual ring, it depends on her tastes. My neighbors wife screamed at her husband when he wanted to get her a diamond :) (knowing basically what you pointed out above).

She just got a gold wedding band, to keep him happy (having a ring), but no diamond.

Then, he still wanted to buy her something expensive. She told him to get a small gold piece, I forget what it was called offhand, sorry. (but the value fluctuates with gold prices, rather than losing value drastically i.e. rings, earrings, necklaces, etc).

Forget the moralizing

[Chelloveck]

She wants a diamond. You want her.

Buy her the damned ring, you idiot!

Q.E.D.

Just say no!

[tuxlove]

Gems are a complete scam. Just say yes to cubic zirconiums! Or no gems at all.

If she needs a ring to feel secure in the marriage, maybe your relationship isn't secure in the first place.

It's a racket

[3583 Bytes Free]

Diamonds are a racket. Most jewelers can't tell the difference between moissanite and diamonds, yet chicks would say that it's not the same. And what guy would dare give his girlfriend a not-a-diamond?

It's about artificial value. Girls like diamonds because they are expensive. If they start to tell you that it's the beauty of the stone and all that, offer them moissanite that looks pretty much identical to the naked eye. Not only that, they could get a stone twice as beautiful at half the cost. They won't want it - why? Because it's the money. Nothing else.

Resale Value?

[hondo77]

If you're concerned about an engagement ring's resale value, methinks you're missing the point.

Re:He snuck in

[phorm]

Every now and then a *normal* person sneaks in... they don't last long...

Just say "No"

[mgoheen]

Call me unconventional, but the idea of presenting my bride-to-be with a $5000 chunk of compressed carbon never really crossed my mind. We both decided we'd MUCH rather spend the money on a trip to...say, Hawaii (which is exactly what we did).

That's not to say that my wife doesn't like jewelry (she does), but even she agrees that diamonds are really the most boring gem, regardless of WHAT the ads might say....

Don't let the Diamond cartel dictate what you like, decide for yourself.

It's not about you... it's about her...no really.

[roxy-skya]

Every man dreds spending a lot of money on some stupid traditional ring. But remember that it appreciates in price, rather than depreciates like a car or computer. Buy your ring at a place where you can upgrade it later (around Portland, they have a discount jeweler called Shane Company). If you believe this marriage is going to last, this is the one thing you really need to bite the bullet on. She, no you will be forever judged by what size stone you get her. Remember that. Ask yourself what kind of day to day memory she wants to have of you. Because _every_ time she looks down at that ring, she'll remember how much you consider her. This is almost innate in the world of women. When it comes down to things like this, most women are shallow, vulnerable creatures that don't want to have their friends rings outdo their own. If she tells you size doesn't matter, slap her than yourself for believing it. Remember, it's not about you, it's about her.

alternatives: have a ring made

[shinzo]

Find a silversmith who makes jewellery that you like and that's a bit different from the offerings at your run-of-the-mill jeweller. Take your girlfriend with you and commission the silversmith to make an engagement ring (and wedding bands if appropriate). There are loads of alternatives to diamonds for stones; the silversmith will help you. Whether or not the finished ring contains a diamond, it will be unique; you'll be supporting a local artisan; and it will be something that the two of you have created specifically as a symbol of your relationship. You can also talk to the silversmith about where they source their gems from, which might go some way to easing the concerns you have.

It lacks the wow factor of presenting your girlfriend with a huge rock, but the symbolism it accrues will more than make up for it as time goes on.

I don't understand the resell thing...

[banky]

A bunch of women I know (or kinda know) have recently started spending their husband's money (long story there, trust me, if you knew them, you'd understand) by "trading up" (their words, not mine) the smallish diamond they were given for engagement to a larger one of their own choosing.

So if these things have no resell value ("no dealer will buy a diamond from you") then how are these women *selling* their diamonds? I know this for a fact. Not pawning them, selling them.

Others have said this article is full of holes. From my POV, that's the largest one.

Re:I don't understand the resell thing...

[krinsh]

I honestly think that it is much less 'selling' and much more like trading in a car - the dealer has a range within which to work and "buys" the diamond back for, say, the $300 they could afford to mark off the one they are selling. They get that money back in 'maintenance' and 'insurance', clean or reset your trade-in and sell it like new.

And by the way, you tell your friends there are just as many women out there that aren't so stuck on themselves that they need a larger or more expensive diamond. Wait for the diamond anniversary, VERB.

Symbolism and Substance

[ChaoticCoyote]

If the lady does not share your beliefs about social justice, there may be a rocky road ahead. If you find diamonds ethically unacceptable (which they are, in my view), then any woman you marry should respect your feelings.

As an old married, I recommend doing what's in your heart, and forget the dammed rules imposed by a commercial society.

My marriage didn't have an auspicious chart. I proposed in the wrong place, both of us were out of work at the time, her parents hated me, an old boyfriend was harrassing her, and she was 7 years older than I -- a true recipe for disaster. We couldn't afford "good" rings, so we bought a couple of $10 silver rings in a mall, found a free minister, and were married outdoors at the Garden of the Gods in Colorado Springs.

We've been happily married for 20 years. We don't wear our rings; our bond is something stronger than a simple band of metal. The best spouse is one who sticks with you through he|| and high water, just as you stick with her.

diamonds are forever...

[mrm677]

which means that you should be able to find a second-hand diamond somewhere. People die but diamonds don't.

Buy Used

[namhash]

Bought wife's used at a local store. Saved a lot of money. Also, people break up all the time who are engaged. Buy theirs. They are always advertising in the classifieds. Not worth buying new.

I'm the man, I make the decisions around here!

[motha_chucker]

I love his opening statement "I'm going to get engaged" as if she has no choice. I wonder if he believes the following: I will not gain weight after marriage. I will have dinner prepared for me every night. I will have sex every time I want it. I will receive an endless supply of massages. I will have children when I am ready. My wife will have her period when I tell her to damn it! Truly his girlfriend is fortunate to be obligated to such a man.

Time honored tradition huh..

[swaic]

You want tradition. You can always get her a burqa. It doesn't get more traditional than that. And it won't cost you a leg and a ball. Hell you can even have her sew it her damn self. :) Just an idea.

Diamonds are a girl's best friend.

[duckpoopy]

Men will have to be content with a dog.

Why do they like useless stuff?

[WildBeast]

Has anyone noticed that women like useless stuff? I mean they love rings, jewelry, fashion, flowers, candles, etc. Stuff that is completely useless yet costs plenty of money. I wish I knew why.

Re:Why do they like useless stuff?

[dlb]

Women probaby wonder why you love upgrading your computer every two months. They probably wonder why you only bath once a week. They're probably still wondering how you can live off Pepsi and pizza.

Why dont you ask them why? That's right, go physically walk up to a woman and ask her why she likes such useless things. Make sure you say "hi" and don't slobber too much.

Re:Why do they like useless stuff?

[Bastard Operator Fro]

hell, Men like useless stuff. Cars, radios, computers, stereo equipment, model cars, artwork... All sorts of things other people find useless, except the person who likes those things

Re:Why do they like useless stuff?

[WildBeast]

how can cars, radios, computers and artwork (liked by women to) be useless? I mean they do something at least. You can get the news from a radio. You can go from one place to another with a car, you can crunch numbers, work, play, interact and do stuff with a computer. But a ring?

Re:Why do they like useless stuff?

[fendel]

Not all of us are into useless stuff. I don't want a diamond, I want an 80-hour ReplayTV.

Sounds like you're picking the wrong women. Hint: If you're consistently attracted to the stereotypically feminine Barbie-doll types with the big hair and the makeup and the trendy clothes, then don't be surprised when they're shallow and they demand expensive, useless trinkets. It's a package deal.

Re:Why do they like useless stuff?

[awol]

Because it is a measure of how much you are willing to piss away to make women happy. That is why women like the perishable low ticket (flowers, perfume etc) or big ticket unresaleable items (diamonds etc). The measure of how much you are willing to piss away on women is correlated to how long you have to work to keep women happy and we all no that idle hands are the devil's playground (or is it that busy hands are god's workshop :-).

No resale value?

[maloi]

I agree with 90% of this post. But it is absolutely incorrect that diamonds have no resale value. Buying a diamond is not like buying a car, where it degrades with time. Rather, it is like buying a house, that (assuming you and your neighbors keep the area nice) will gradually gain value. Unless, of course, you sell it at a pawn shop. But then you're going for a loss with anything you sell at a pawn shop.

check out the family jewels

[RedZone]

I was in this situation a few years ago, went to the jewelry stores, and was appalled at the insane costs for some pretty lame-looking rings. I thought I'd be trapped into buying an overpriced diamond anyway --until my mother happened to mention that she had a ring that used to belong to my grandmother, and would I like to give my fiance that ring? Hell yes!

My fiance (now wife) just went crazy over having such a unique ring with so much family history --and from my cheap perspective, it was FREE!

So I suggest you ask around and see if any of the older women in your family have an heirloom ring they would like to give you to use as an engagement ring. You never know.

And if that fails, check out the estate sales!

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Skyshadow]

apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

You've never had a girlfriend, have you?

Look, women think differently than men on some issues, but you disregard that point of view only at your great peril. So fucking what if sending flowers is stupid? If it makes your girl feel loved, well, mission accomplished.

Don't be a goon.

Not My Experience

[pmc]

diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch. They'll sell you the shit, but damn it, they're not taking it back at any price.

Odd - second hand diamond rings certainly sell for close to new prices. Also when I bought my wife a diamond pendant in Amsterdam for our anniversary (erm 2nd, not 60th!) it came with a buy-back guarantee that was valid indefinitely for a large proportion of the price (I think 90% but it was a few years ago now).

Re:Not My Experience

[krinsh]

They *sell* for near-new prices. They are 'pawned' by laypeople for a lot less.

There ARE Alternatives

[stygar]

I was lucky in that my girlfriend (now my wife) didn't particularly like diamonds. So I looked around and got her one with a really nice sapphire instead. The (artificial) price difference also meant that I could get a ring with a much larger stone than I could have afforded if I'd bought a Diamond.

What engagement ring?

[Mendax Veritas]

My wife didn't get an engagement ring. We went from "Will you marry me?" to "I do" within a few weeks. Don't ever let anyone tell you that unplanned pregnancies aren't good for anything.

Re:What engagement ring?

[afidel]

Unplanned pregnancies are good because of the joy you will have in your heart when your little one arrives. Everyone that knows me thought that I couldn't be any happier than the day I was married, they were wrong, I couldn't have been any happier than the day my son was born. People who saw me that day even said so =)

Diamonds suck

[f00zbll]

Personally I got an Opal for my wife. Why? Because it is far more unique and interesting than something that just sparkles. I don't see what the big deal is with diamonds. They are the most boring gem in the world. Rubies, saffires and emeralds are much more interesting. It's only cuz the diamond industry is controlled by De Beers.

Re:Diamonds suck

[Kymermosst]

Well, one of the things is, it's damn hard to chip or scratch a diamond. Once she's got it, it's not going to get broken.

That's a big plus, especially for my wife, who tends to break and scratch her non-diamond gems quite often.

You're right.

[Elwood P Dowd]

My parents were hippies. Dad gave Mom an emerald engagement ring with small diamonds in the setting. They exchanged necklaces with azure bands at their wedding. Since Mom liked emeralds so much, once or twice a decade, Dad would get her another peice of expensive emerald jewelry. They divorced, just like everyone else, but diamonds was never a sticking point. Ok, I've got a better example.

A friend of mine proposed to his wife by going to a local jeweler and paying him a couple hundred dollars for the privilege of borrowing his emerald stock. He took his girlfriend out to dinner, pulled a silk handkerchief out of his suit pocket, poured 200 emeralds into a little pile on the table, and asked her if she'd like to pick one for an engagement ring.

She didn't complain about not getting a diamond. That's for damn sure.

Another excellent option is antique jewelry. If you have the time to do a lot of inquiry, and you stay in the same price range, you could wind up with a much much more interesting and stylish ring. An antique diamond ring, IMHO, would not be supporting violence in exactly the same way. And your girlfriend wouldn't be upset.

All that said, I can't tell if you mean what you say. If you know what your girlfriend would like, you're going to have to think of a way to make her at least that excited about something else before you take it away. She's going to get idiotic comments from her friends in any case if you can't afford some gaudy monstrosity. Figure it out so that she'll be blown away no matter what. If you're not sure, do more figuring. Ideally, she'll be blown away, and it will be affordable. But the affordable part should be the first to go :)

Don't think you'll get away with it!

[krinsh]

Diamond or not; whether it fits into or 'clicks' with the wedding band or not - you are unlikely to get away without that token of you commitment. Whether an advertising agency or our country's increased incomes caused it; the engagment ring is a tradition in our country - just as anniversary gifts, flowers, and other tokens of our affection are not only expected but generally required. These 'traditions' may or may not be commonplace in your family but they are as entrenched as the spending on holidays.

resale

[stipe42]

Just don't get it engraved at all. It's easier to pawn off an unengraved one when she leaves you a few months before the wedding.
signed,
the voice of experience

An alternative (sorta)

[eoinatstraylight]

For several years the russians have been selling "synthetic" diamonds. These are grown at extremely high temperature and pressure from either the seed of a real diamond or a piece of graphite. The results are often flawed, but good enough to be sold to the drilling markets. However, large flawless ones are available (at a price), the only way to tell them from a real (as in dug out of the ground) one is the synthetic fluoresces for a microsecond or so longer than it's natural counterpart.

This has understandably got DeBeers rather worried. :)

For more information visit: http://www.shahlimar.com/diamond/

But if you want to ensure that your diamond has a pristine past, it's the only way to go.

Girls suck

[Scrameustache]

I've had serious GFs and we discussed the whole "diamonds are tainted by the blood of those forced to mine 'em" thing and the fact that the whole engagement ring thing is just a scam run by those who are doing the forcing.

Long story short: They want a ring with a diamond.

Don't try reason or logic on a girl. Just give 'em what they want, or they'll resent you.

The Family Jewels

[bluveinr]

I went through the same process when I was getting engaged. Conflict Diamonds really bothered me, so that was out of the question.

My grandmother recenlty passed away, and we were left with her jewelery. It was equally divided among her 3 male grandchildren. I got her mothers original engagement ring and wedding band. They made a great engagement ring/set, and will be something she can pass on to here
grandchildren.

One of my brothers inherited her cocktail ring, and had a jewler make some additions to it along the same theme, and it was his engagement ring.

In anycase, all three of us recycled her jewlery, and used them as engagement rings. Our fiances loved them, and have something symbolic of the union of our families to pass on to thier grandkids.

diamonds

[dotslashdotdot]

I've been married almost thirty years. Do either one of us have any ice? No. Do we love each other any less? No.

'nuff said.

Customize the ring

[MintSlice]

My wife (of eight years) and I spent some time looking around a boutique jewellers and looking at what rings were available. We found some designs we really liked (not at all like the traditional diamond engagement ring) and then sat down with a jeweller and got him to make a ring we designed.

We live in Australia, but recently spent three years in the US living in MA, NV and MI. Everyone who saw her engagement ring were very impressed (most only had the standard diamond ring), and there's not a single diamond on the ring.

There is one ting better that a diamond ring, and that's a ring that been custom designed for her.

Congratulations!

Re:Customize the ring

[MintSlice]

I never mentioned price, not once. So it's interesting that you assume simply because there was no diamonds that I must have paid less.

Regardless, any idiot that thinks that women think the cost of the ring is more important that the thought put into it is a putz. The reason why women like it when you bring them flowers is because it shows them that you were thinking about them, not because you paid top dollar and got screwed over by the person selling them. Same goes for rings.

Oh, and if you're going to question my values again, then have the balls to use your real name.

Careful

[radpole]

You buy her a small diamond and she will be evaluating things you want to purchase for youself. Like all those high tech gadgets. You buy them then they have absolutely no resale value. They are many times made by dirt cheap labor.

Better buy the big one or you will regret.

Spend the money on something you agree on.

[tdyson]

First, if she WANTS one, get her one. This isn't about you.

When we got married I spent evey penny I had on a small diamond. I don't even know how big it is. Size didn't matter then, doesn't matter now.

From time to time my wife mentions a new ring. We have more money now and I always tell her that she can have whatever she is comfortable buying. But, she doesn't really want a new ring.

Buy something that really is a couple thing - a tandem bicycle!

How will it look five years from now?

[edhall]

Neither my wife nor I liked the aesthetics of diamonds. We just didn't think that they looked that good on her. So we looked at other gemstones, and wound up with a ruby set with three small diamonds. The red and gold look great together, and match her color preferences much better than a gold-set diamond would. Thirteen years later it still looks good, and she still gets complements on it.

If you are thinking in terms of social statements -- whether the social conventions concerning diamonds on the one hand or the questionable ethics of their production on the other -- you might be ignoring the fact the ring is jewelry, and not just symbolism. Sure, a big diamond has a lot of symbolic value now. But that won't mean you and your wife will like the way it looks five years from now.

-Ed

Resale Value (and getting Value)

[FocaJonathan]

I don't think your real concern is resale value, or how to get a good value, but in case you (or others) decide to go the way of the diamond here is some info on getting good value and thus good resale value.

Good diamonds:
Clean (vvsi2 or better),
well cut (with in 1% of ideal),
very little color (F/G or better)

Cost much more than others and resell very well.
The way diamond prices are measure is by the Rap sheet (The Rappaport Diamond Report). These prices claim to be the average cash selling of _well cut_ diamonds in NYC during the previous week. This report is a subscription service for Jewelers only The list by weight color and clarity. Well cut is assumed.

You should seek to pay NO MORE 18% LESS THAN the Rap price online or in a jewelery district. If you can get 23% off Rap you are doing well.

Wholesale diamond prices are generally 20-30% off Rap.

In order to know that rap really applies your diamond MUST have a GIA or AGL cert. Lots of nice (smaller) stones don't because it costs about $200 to get a cert. These are fine to buy, but NEVER trust a jewelers evaluation of a stone without a certificate.

Tips for buying:

- Set your budget.
- Only buy a loose stone then get it set.
- Buy only a well cut diamond.
- Insist on a GIA certified stone.
- Go to a jewelery district (not a mall)
- Buy just below the unit. (.74, .98, 1.23 or 1.49 carats) these sell at a non trivial discount to the stones at the 3/4, 1 etc mark, because "she" wants a 1 Carat. YOU CAN NOT TELL WITHOUT A SCALE. Tell her (or let her tell her friends) it is 1 Carat.
- Find something you like, that you can afford if sold at 18% off rap, don't worry about what they are asking. Tell them you are looking to pay %23 off rap, settle between there and 18%.

Good luck.

You have *GOT* to be kidding me.

[pde]

OK, I'm really sorry, but for god's sake. The whole question of the ethics and economics of diamonds pales in comparison to this:

What kind of girl would marry a guy who would come to *SLASHDOT* for advice about an engagement ring?

Good lord, man. Have some freaking dignity.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Com2Kid]

So fucking what if sending flowers is stupid? If it makes your girl feel loved, well, mission accomplished.


What is up with males? I swear to God I am embarresed about my own damn gender, are we all really that bleeming stupid?

Flowers == kick ass. Period. They look lovely, they have a great texture to them, and they are a wonderful symbol of life itself.

As a newlywed wife...

[Trinity-Infinity]

let me ask this - Have you tried talking to her? That's going to be your only truly successful way of finding out what she wants and what you should do... though I think it's cool you went to slashdot first, but perhaps you should have tried the message boards at WeddingChannel.com instead?

Due to the problems in diamond production and war conflicts in the regions, getting a diamond alternative, or perhaps a family heirloom diamond are perfectly reasonable alternatives.

But for heaven's sake - ASK HER what she wants!!! Most of my girlfriends and women I chat with online would prefer shopping for a ring with their boyfriends to *guarantee* they get something they like, as opposed to a total surprise with a fugly ring. My husband took me with him, and made the proposal itself a total surprise.

And here we are today, happily married almost two years after we first went ring shopping together :)

Best of luck to you, and you know she'll say yes!

engagement diamonds

[tkjtkj]

you're confusing reality with fantasy... She has the fantasy, and no reality realized by yourself or anyone can ever ever take that away from her. Yes, it's an orchestrated illusion, but it's HER illusion, solidly and irrevocably entrenched in her psyche ... so get over it ... get the diamond, and dont make a thesis out of this! trust me! jon

The Terrrorism connection

[jayayeem]

I used to boycott Ben and Jerry's because of their 1% for peace crap, back when my parents livlihood depended on the defense industry.

Now I boycott Microsoft because they donate money to republican and democratic candidates for office.

Face it.. sometimes money you spend goes to things you don't agree with. This 'conflict diamonds' crap is no different from the 'drugs fund terrorism' crap that I see on TV these day.

My diamond solution

[vizbones]

I wanted to get my girlfriend a nice ring, but at the time I was a student and had no money.

I looked at the jewelry stores and for what I could afford, she could have a diamon splinter. It was really embarrassing. I thought about how silly she would feel showing this little piece of nothing to her friends and family. I think in this case size DOES matter :)

So, for the same amount of money, I bought her this HUGE honking Cubic Zerc. Looks real nice.

I told her upfront it was fake (I'm not going to lie to HER!!) She just doesn't have to tell people herself. In the end it didn't really matter. She's not the type to show off anything anyway, but it made me feel better. That's the big lie. That I should feel like a chump because my wife-to-be can't flash some big rock? F*&k that!

Now that I have a job and some money (we've been married for 8 years now) I don't think either one of us is really all that interested in getting a real diamond. She still wears it and I still think it looks good. A rock that size would have cost a couple of G's, but I only spent a 100 bucks.

The diamond industry can kiss my a$$

V

My advice

[AxelBoldt]

If your gf is so stupid that she falls for the transparent propaganda of de Beers, junk her and save the money. It won't last anyway.

Re:My advice

[bcboy]

My thoughts exactly. Find someone with a brain and a heart. It worked for me.

de Beers, the original monopoly

[GoatEnigma]

Sadly, diamonds as gemstones is an entirely artificial market. Their industrial use is invaluable, but for stones that internally reflect light to produce a glow, are you really going to blow $10k?

There is an alternative to so called "blood diamonds" or "conflict diamonds" though. Diamonds have been discovered in canada in the last 10 years, and were initially produced by junior companies. de Beers has already bought out at least one of the diamond sites, scheduled for production in 2006, but diamond production in Canada since 1991 has been of the highest ethical quality. You can tell Canadian produced diamonds as they are laser inscribed with a microscopic polar bear outline (although I think some jewellers now use an inscribed maple leaf inside a diamond outline).

Here are some good articles:
All you ever wanted to learn about how diamonds form
Police warning about Canadian diamonds
Information on the original diamond mine in Canada [pdf]

Engagement Bathtub

[Alderete]

I asked my fiancee (now wife) if she wanted a diamond engagement ring, with the full intent to buy whatever she wanted, even if I thought it was silly.

She thought it was silly too. She said, I don't want an engagement ring, I want a new bathtub!

So we got a double-ended old fashioned bathtub (and remodeled the bathroom around it), which we take a bath in together almost every day (it's large).

It's the single best decision we've made in our 4 years together, and I'm confident we'll still be saying that when its 40 years, and we're still taking baths together.

Ring or House?

[CheapScott]

My then-girlfriend (now-wife) discussed this in the following way: Would we like to have a nice ring on her finger, or would we like to work toward a downpayment for a house? We chose the house option, and we now have a nice pair of wedding rings. And we're closing on our house in a couple of weeks.

--Paul.

It's meant to be a sacrifice

[Sloppy]

Worth has nothing to do with it. It's all about pointless sacrifice. If diamonds weren't expensive, if they had good resale, then they would be useless for this purpose.

Buying the diamond is a "labor of love" to prove to the chick that you will stick around instead of impregnating her and then suddenly disappearing, netting you genetic proliferation, and burdening her with child rearing expense.

No, it doesn't really make sense in a society with rational beings, but marriage is based upon the premise that two untrustworthy animals want to make a deal.

Avoiding Conflict Diamonds

[stygar]

You could specifically ask for a ring made using Canadian diamonds, which have become available in the last 5 years or so.

No diamonds for us.

[Dirtside]

Well, not many, anyway. My wife told me before I even proposed to her that she had not much interest in diamonds, let alone big showy ones. She also dislikes yellow gold, so I ended up getting her a white gold ring set with sapphires (and a few tiny diamonds around each of the sapphires), along with a matching bracelet and pendant. (We had somehow -- entirely coincidental, I'm sure ;) -- ended up on the topic of gemstones a few months before I proposed, so I had learned her likes and filed it away.)

Since then I've also gotten her a heart-shaped blue topaz pendant and a pearl-and-(small-)diamond pendant; plus, we got married, and her wedding ring itself is a thin, white gold band set with a few tiny diamonds in a V-shaped notch. (My own ring is a plain white gold band; I don't like yellow gold much, either.)

The whole "two months salary" thing was a decades-long marketing attack by DeBeers. If I had spent two months' salary on her engagement ring, it would have cost around $5,000, which we both agree is a ridiculous amount of money to spend on something that is very shiny but extremely useless (scroll down till you see the chart). Yes, she likes jewelry, but we both (for slightly different reasons) detest the idea that spending more money automatically equals you love her more. My wife is never happier than when I clean things around the apartment, unbidden by her -- and it doesn't require me to spend thousands of dollars to do so.

If your fiancee honestly wants a big diamond, either because it springs from her own heart or because she's been convinced by the marketdroids, well, go ahead and get it for her. If, like so many women recently, she's shucked the "must have big diamond... MUST HAVE BIG DIAMOND" cliche, find out what gems she really does like.

Getting Laid ... is it worth the cost?

[Triumph The Insult C]

ok dude, let's look at the facts

1. you read /.
2. you wrote in to /. asking about an 'ethical' problem
3. YOU HAVE A GIRLFRIEND

jesus man ... who cares if it's ethical or not. how many /.ers do you think are getting laid? by a human? by a member of the opposite sex?

get out while you can man. you're probably tapping some tanglicious broad ... don't worry about us pale, drastically [over|under]weight /. geeks. go get some stank on your down lo. if that means buying a diamond when you don't really feel like it, take one for the team. and while you're taking it, be sure to take some pics and post the somewhere on the www/nntp.

Go fake.. go really fake..?

[stickyc]

A friend of mine got engaged recently and the couple both felt the same way with regards to the Great Diamond Conspiracy(tm). Their solution was to buy a gargantuan fake ring (it had to have been a good 1" rock). The thing looked so damn silly and made such a statement, nobody's mentioned the lack of a real ring (as far as I know).

The real bonus was, it tended to disarm most of the guys as well, rather than causing the usual Male Sphincter Tightening when the girlfriends get glassy eyed admiring a real ring...

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Anonymous Coward]

>>they have a great texture to them

The texturing isn't that great. Whoever made them should go back and redo the bump mapping. And a little anisotropy wouldn't hurt.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Golias]

Shop for cut roses next Feb 13, and see if you feel the same way. It's enough to make a bachelor like me want to build a hothouse in his back yard, just to have a reserve of flowers ready on demand.

There is Diamonique.

[haydon4]

QVC sells another alternative to diamonds called Diamonique. They sparkle more then your average diamond and cost a fraction of the price. How do you really want to show you love for somebody, by giving her a good sized ring that shines like nothing she's ever seen before that both economical and practical? Or will you blow $5000 on a real diamond that would be half the size of a pea? Love isn't about how much you can spend a glorified rock, is about what you can give her that will make her feel special. Besides, you won't have to worry about where the diamond in question really came from.

buy used

[Graymalkn]

It sounds tacky, but buying used can have it's advantages.

When I asked my now-wife to marry me, I knew that not just any ring would do--not because she would want something expensive (not even her friends would care about that), but because she would want something with character. The stuff being sold today just doesn't have any, so I decided to go used.

Not just used, but antique. I found a small estate jewlery shop which happened to have the parfect ring--a sort of art-deco design, made in the 1920s (yes, it happened to have a diamond). They were happy to strengthen the band and resize it (hint: get some calipers and measure your girlfriend's rings while she's away to get the ring the right size).

So for a bit less than what I would have spent on a bland new piece of silver and carbon, I was able to find something with character that was older than my grandparents. Assuming her friends have any class whatsoever, just think how envious they'll be of such a prize on her finger!

What's her favorite color?

[mengel]

Find out her favorite color, and get her a sapphire, or ruby, or emerald or what have you.

You can still spend a small fortune on the ring, but it will be more personal than a diamond.

It's a gift, not an "investment"

[Dr. Ion]

I had a jeweler once tell me that an engagement diamond is an "investment". I had to laugh.. do you wait 10 years and sell it for a profit?

It's a symbol. A symbol that you really will spend thousands of dollars on a rock to decorate her finger.

And don't kid yourself.. she wants one -- badly. As big a one as you can afford, since her friends will be looking at it to measure your worth.

You can wish and pretend that we're beyond that, and that it's not really so, but then wake up and buy the best diamond you can afford. If you ever live to regret it, it will be the least of your expense and headaches anyway.

Re:It's a gift, not an "investment"

[fendel]

Aaarrrghhh!!

No she doesn't. If she says she doesn't need the diamond, listen to her. If she insists that she does need the diamond, ask yourself what kind of shallow person you're marrying.

As a non-diamond-wearing woman, if I see one more "if she says she doesn't want one, she's lying" post, I'm going to throw up.

Re:It's a gift, not an "investment"

[shawnseat]

As a non-diamond-wearing woman, if I see one more "if she says she doesn't want one, she's lying" post, I'm going to throw up.

You've just discovered the reason de Beers has advertisements during college football games (it's not just movies anymore ;)). Some tripe like "show her that you'd marry her all over again" [this is pawning some anniversary item, a bracelet I think]. I think they started those adverts because they had a sudden spike in 3/4-1 ct diamond supplies from Australia.

important!

[pretzel_logic]

Think about a women for a second, they are not at all what you just thought. I have learned this through time. If you do not have a natural involentary urge to buy her a diamond ring, then my friend, She will feel your resistance. She WILL feel uncomfortable with you. she WILL think about you twice. By then it might be too late. Your actions will then be very important because at this time, you are now being compared with every guy shes met in the past 3 years.

She has been told about diamonds since she started talking to other femmes.

Its love, man. You have to do this deed. The reason diamonds are invaluable is because if the love fails over the ring. An example would be, if she said NO when you showed it to her. The ring could be cursed, or have a bad omen. Traditionally, no one is going to want to buy that. If the ring did have value, then it would be obnoxios. The rich men would keep upgrading their ladies rings, the young man would have 1 in his pocket, it would ruin the 'diamond; effect. kinda like an inflation.

It could also be that through your research on the web studing diamonds, that you have managed to find and save all the links to the negative aspects of getting married with all the energy focused on diamonds. This could be trouble. If you never came to slashdot, you might have actually ruined your chances of getting married.

Here are some positive links:

• tiffany.com // super nice + reputation
• theknot.com // lol

antiques

[DarkClown]

My wife handed me a 'get off the hook card' by falling in love with an antique solitaire .8 carat diamond that had been inscribed on the inside band in the 20s. The diamond has nice color but a few flaws - I honestly forgot the rating, but it's pretty and not wimpy looking at all. At the time the 'formula' for getting an engagemnt ring would have dicated that I shell out about 6k - I was sucking in air an getting ready for that when she saw this one. It cost 2k... so look around (with her) under the guise of buying an antique bookshelf or something. It is almost a sure bet that she'll gravitate toward the gems/jewelery in an antique mallish type place. This could bite your butt though, thinking about it, you may want to scout out where you want to go 'bookcase' shopping before you take her anywhere....

Good luck in your single life.

[subdigit]

I think if you look hard enough at any item in this world, you can probably justify against it by say that it's bad because of so and so. Sometimes, you just take the bite and be willing to chew with all the grit that comes with it. Nothing in this world is pure and clean. Everything comes with a price. If you honestly believe that your gf is happy that you eeked her out of a diamond ring cause of a 2-4.5% chance of , you better be damn sure you read between the lines. Cause that's where all the writing lies. Besides, get used to it, you're gonna be doing a lot more sacrificing for your future wife from now on. And you know what... sometimes it's not so much about what you want, it's about what you want to do to make her the happiest person around, and sometimes that really is worth a few personal sacrifices. flame on.

De Beers was once a dangerous company.

[ninejaguar]

Although they were a monopoly, even the U.S. Department of Justice couldn't stop them from showing those clever shadow-people commercials. But, even the mighty have trouble.

no joke

[lingqi]

i am sooooo lucky that my gf rather have a 23" cinema display like this than a diamond.

at the mean time, please realize that diamonds are not all that precious (material-wise), and it's under heavy monopolic powers (deBeers). however, platinum IS, so get a good platinum band and engrave something on there.

here is a good link on diamonds and the such.

p.s. artificial diamonds are making good progress. it (crystal structure) is getting too perfect until they exhibit phosphorescence. which is how they distinguish artificial diamond now. ha! (the most perfect diamonds are actually worthless. isn't that amazing?)

anyway. ask her if a dual G4+dual CinemaHD would cut it engagement-wise =)

You're not buying it for you. It's for her.

[Dan Crash]

That's the whole point of the engagement ring -- to show her that you'd spend a lot of money on something which seems frivolous and generally useless to you because SHE's worth it.

You're not alone in thinking, "Jewelry? What can I do with that?", but I suspect you'll come to the same conclusion most of us married guys came to when we were searching for a ring. Remember: It's not about you, it's about her. Buy what makes her happy.

Watch her face when she first sees it and see if it isn't worth the price.

Are you feeling ok?

[packetgeek]

oops Hit the enter key instead of the tab... oh well.
Anyway, If you are about to get married I thought you would have known by now.
It's not about what you want.
Go ahead and mock me but most everyone I know that IS married will agree. Ones that have only "been dating a really long time" will argue with me till they're blue in the face... Untill they have been married for a couple years.

Talk to your Fiancee

[V_IL_Len]

I agree with you about your stand on diamonds and personally will not buy diamonds. I also think diamonds aren't that attractive anyway. It sounds like your girlfriend knows you want to marry her and you have already told her about your very reasonable hesitations about diamonds. Why not sit down and talk to her about what she wants to wear everyday. You have tons of flexibility. Do you want a solitaire or a group of stones? Do you want one kind of stone or a variety of stones? I personally think that rubies, emeralds and sapphires are the three most attractive stones. If you want to have a diamond or a couple of diamonds you can use them as accents of the other featured stone(s). Once you have discussed with her what she likes as guidlines you can still sit down with a good jeweler that does custom designs and create her a unique and socially responsible engagement ring that will be the envy of all of her friends.

Some like metal...

[DarkPERL]

Being newly engaged, I got my gf a simple, elegant ring of ruby and titanium. Why you ask? Maybe I am cheap, maybe I am just a little geeky at heart, but the simple truth is that I got it to match our matching Titanium Powerbooks. Oh, and the Ruby...I bet you can figure that out :)

"A man is either great or nothing." ~~Paul Erdos

Wrong Question

[philipsblows]

Much like the megahertz myth, the need for a diamond engagement ring has been cultivated through careful marketing and peer pressure.

But.

The cost of NOT getting this diamond ring may be the relationship itself. It may not occur right away (she might still accept your proposal) but this will be a major disappointment to a woman who has had an engagement ring (or a rock as my ex-girlfriend called it), and it just might set the tone for the rest of your time together.

As has been pointed out elsehwhere in this very thread, gasoline, diamonds, honey, opium, and a whole bunch of other products all contribute to terrorism or cruel treatment of our fellow humans or various other badnesses in the world.

In the end, though, it will be infinitely easier to get a fuel-efficient car and switch away from various other products than it will be to alter the mindset of the woman (and ALL of her friends) who considers not where it came from or how it got there, but merely that it is on her finger.

So, if you want to get married and start of on the right foot with her, you should of course shop for the best value you can find in your budget and so on, but yes, the diamond is worth it.

[save your energy... cede her victory on this one, fight the good fight when she wants to know why you are "wasting" so much money on a cable modem/DSL, fast graphics cards, etc.]

Re:Wrong Question

[TheTrunkDr.]

This is so right!!! she will be nothing but disappointed unless you get her a diamond. It's not a question of rational thinking and purchasing it's not an ethical question, this is a question of romance and love. No matter what she says, she will be disappointed with anything but a diamond, don't be an idiot, get it! Yes it's been marketed that way, yes they're outrageously overpriced, yes children probably died getting it to that jewellery store, but she still believes that it symbolizes love. This kind of thing should be a no brainer, if it's not you shouldn't be getting married because either A. you don't really want to get married and are subconsciously looking to sabotage the relationship. or B. you don't know enough about women to stay married!

Re:Wrong Question

[fendel]

Okay, I am officially throwing up now.

I am female. I do not want or expect a diamond from my guy. If he bought me one, the first words out of my mouth would be, "Are you nuts? Take that back!"

Talk about a waste of money. Pointless, gaudy, impractical. There are better ways to spend that ludicrous amount of money than a useless piece of jewelry.

Look, I know you're being a hopeless romantic and I'm sure some women think that's sweet, but guys, get it through your heads, not every woman wants a rock.

Re:Wrong Question

[einhverfr]

hehe. Isn't it funny that the strongest advocates of diamonds here seem to be male? ;)

(I am a man but I personally think that diamonds are dull. Colored stones are nicer IMO.)

My point is that a nice and unusual ring is probably going to score more points than a ordinary expected one.

Re:Wrong Question

[Artificer]

The cost of NOT getting this diamond ring may be the relationship itself.

If someone is SO materialistic so as to BREAK OFF a relationship that is leading to marriage just because they don't get a diamond ring, then there's a decent chance that they're probably not worth the relationship in the first place.

I happen to really believe in commitment, and someone who would break off a relationship that is that serious for a reason such as this, just doesn't seem like they are committed to the relationship themselves.

Re:Wrong Question

[TheTrunkDr.]

hehe you're right it is kinda funny, but I'm not an advocate of diamonds, I'm an advocate of not having your girlfriend/wife/fiance pissed at you, and you're safe getting a diamond, that's really all it's about.

Re:Wrong Question

[MemeRot]

"As has been pointed out elsehwhere in this very thread, gasoline, diamonds, honey, opium, and a whole bunch of other products all contribute to terrorism or cruel treatment of our fellow humans or various other badnesses in the world. "

Fuck the diamond. Buy her $8000 worth of opium.

Happy times my friend, happy times.

Re:Wrong Question

[philipsblows]

I wasn't suggesting that no diamond is automatic termination of the relationship... if it were, then this comment is right on.

However, it is a disappointment to most women when their man doesn't do what she's waited for all her life and get her a ring that she can show her friends and family, then meet her at the end of the aisle, etc etc.

Imagine this: if you ask a woman whether she would forego the ring for the sake of, say, purchasing a home, the answer will not come as easily as one might expect (in most cases), because while the home is an investment in the future, the ring is your investment in her.

But being a guy, I'll never really know what is up with this...

Re:Wrong Question

[deblau]

As has been pointed out elsehwhere in this very thread, gasoline, diamonds, honey, opium, and a whole bunch of other products all contribute to terrorism or cruel treatment of our fellow humans or various other badnesses in the world.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I heard you correctly. If you mean that the sale of these things contributes to terrorism, then you are mistaken. The sale itself is a simple transaction. The real root and cause of terrorism is the desires of evil men, and it is applying the proceeds of their sales towards their evil purposes which is the action of terrorism. Please don't shoot the messenger or confuse the issue.

[save your energy... cede her victory on this one, fight the good fight when she wants to know why you are "wasting" so much money on a cable modem/DSL, fast graphics cards, etc.]

Please don't. Sacrifice of the spirit leads to emotional despair, when you find after years of miserable marriage that the thing keeping you together was mutual sacrifice, not mutual respect.

Re:Wrong Question

[mesocyclone]

If someone is SO materialistic so as to BREAK OFF a relationship that is leading to marriage just because they don't get a diamond ring, then there's a decent chance that they're probably not worth the relationship in the first place.

Its all in the symbolism, not the materialism (for most folks, anyway). What ever happened to your sense of romance? Oh... that's right... Slashdot... news for nerds.

Of course, it took me about 25 years of marriage to start to figure out the value of symbolism, etc... Such is life as a nerd.

Re:Wrong Question

[quintessent]

she's waited for all her life and get her a ring that she can show her friends and family, then meet her at the end of the aisle

Often true, but I find this somewhat shallow. Lucky is the man who finds a woman who thinks on a much higher plane.

Yes - you need to get one.

[Eagle7]

YES!! Unless she told you no, then you ought to get one for her. Perhaps you can find an heirlom diamond in your family that you would be able to use, thus saving on cost and ethical issues.

But basically, unless you pass the following test, I suspect that deep down you are looking for an excuse to be cheap:

• Do you only buy ethically OK clothing, and be very careful to make sure of it?
• Do you make sure that your coffee is grown under ethical conditions?
• Do you ensure that all your computer products and other electronics haven't been made for cheap in Mexico, thereby polluting the environment there even worse?
• Do you ensure that all your tech products are disposed of properly, and not polluting some third world country?
• Do you avoid buying things "Made in China" or elsewhere where you cannot be sure of the conditions/ages of the workers?

Unless you do all of those things, I would posit that you are already contributing to unethical behavior with your participation in commerce. If you do do all those things, and your g/f isn't open to the no diamond idea although she will jump through those hoops, then she is being hypocritical.

I say buy her the diamond and have a wonderful life together. Coming from a happily engaged man (who both bought and used inheritted diamonds)

Re:Yes - you need to get one.

[dbretton]

But basically, unless you pass the following test, I suspect that deep down you are looking for an excuse to be cheap:
(snip snip)

If you answer 'yes' to any one of the following questions, you must also be cheap:

- I like to pay extraordinary amounts of money for products of inferior quality.

- I enjoy pissing away thousands of dollars on a piece of jewelry that is kept artificially overvalued.

- I love being at the mercy of international jewel cartels.

- I like getting ripped off.

Re:Yes - you need to get one.

[Ian Bicking]

Your clothing and other items are not a symbol, they are functional. A diamonds only value is sentimental. A conscientious person -- who may make compromises in their life -- may still recognize the taint in an item they presumably will keep and wear their entire life.

Re:Yes - you need to get one.

[Eagle7]

You scurvy shiester bastard! Stop pointing out weaknesses my analogies! ;)

But yeah, you have an interesting point - although I would argue that clothing is often a very symbolic thing - for instance, wearing Nike running shorts rather than brand X.

Not that this really relates to my original argument, but there is lately a trend in buying antique engagement rings and cleaning them up. I suspose that at least some of this popularity could be in reaction to the high prices and dubious ethics of the modern diamond merchant.

Re:Yes - you need to get one.

[deblau]

YES!! Unless she told you no, then you ought to get one for her.

Please, do me the honor of explaining from whence this proclamation of law comes? If someone told you you "ought to wallop her in the head" because that's what every other drooling idiot was doing in their moments between being entertained by Brittany $pears, should you?

And as far as ethical considerations go, I don't consider buying anything legally to be unethical, regardless of from where it comes. I assume none of the responsibility for the actions of others, which is out of my control. I do not "allow" slave labor by buying sweatshop goods, nor do I "cause" it through direct action of mine. The moral dilemma resides solely with the owner of that sweatshop. It is vanity to believe that I can change the behavior of another person simply by inaction, by "not buying their goods". Furthermore, I will do nothing to help the condition of the workers beyond that which is beneficial to both of us. I would gladly hire each and every one of them myself, had I the product to make, but I don't give charity for its own sake. That way lies emotional bankruptcy.

Re:Yes - you need to get one.

[MrGrendel]

It is simply impossible to live in the modern world without somehow contributing to unethical behavior, whether intentional or not. But that is no excuse for giving up and not making an effort. Ethical decisions should be made based on principle and reason, not on previous failures. Doing the right thing now is still doing the right thing, regardless of what you did yesterday or will do tomorrow.

That being said, there is nothing "cheap" about refusing to spend thousands of dollars on a piece of decorative carbon. Spending that kind of money just to follow social norms is foolish. Keep the money and buy yourself some self-respect instead. In the long run, that will do more good for your marriage than anything you could find in a store.

Re:Yes - you need to get one.

[maxume]

Says the good soldier. To me, the biggest problem with atlas shrugged is that is should have been a 15 or 20 page short story, not 1000+ pages, with 30 page monolouges. There is basically one idiological point in the bood, and taking a thousand pages to set it up/get it across, at least to me, reveals some flaws in the basic thought process of the reader. "not buying their goods" is not inaction, it is an alternative course of action. By supporting an entity who's ethics match your own, you are helping said entity to survive, and not its(and your) enemies.

Re:Yes - you need to get one.

[deblau]

As to your critique of the book, that's your opinion. I agree with that critique, to some extent. Towards the end, it did get rather tiresome, although the ideas put forth in the last monologue were simply fleshing out the idea of the main point. Taken by itself, it would make a decent (but horribly dry) philosophy text. Rand wasn't trying to write a textbook, because she wanted a wider audience.

Re:Yes - you need to get one.

[brad3378]

You're missing the point. By making the diamond purchase sound unethical for the bride to be, she will be more likely to decide against the purchase, leaving the future groom more money to spend on other stuff. I'm sure if given the choice, many women would rather have a corvette than a ring. A ring isn't meant to be shared, but a Corvette has 2 seats.

Re:Yes - you need to get one.

[Wraithlyn]

"Stop pointing out weaknesses my analogies! ;)"

Can we point out weaknesses your grammar?

Sorry... couldn't resist ;)

Antique / Estate Jewlery

[jgg]

One way to buy a diamond without contributing to what really is an evil industry, is to buy an antique ring, or just acquire the diamond that way and have it reset.

My fiance and I went that route when we got engaged late last year and we're both very happy with the resolution. I had wanted to give her a diamond ring out of an interest in being traditional, and she had misgivings due to the labor and other abuses in diamond mining and trading.

We were fortunate that San Francisco has a fantastic estate jewelry store, and the ring she's wearing is absolutely unique.

Re:Nerds dont get the girl

[stwrtpj]

They always lose out jocks and other whole people.

To put it very bluntly, the kind of girls that go to jocks and similar "pretty people" are generally brainless airheads that might look nice and maybe even might be good in bed, but the typical, intelligent techie-type person would grow bored from the lack of intellectual stimulation.

Tech-minded people have to be more willing to look for someone of substance to have a lasting relationship. I was fortunate enough to find one. I also found that these kind of women are less likely to demand nice-looking but ultimately useless trinkets like diamonds and gold. Had she insisted on a diamond ring, we would not now have the money for the down payment on the house we're looking at. At least a house is an investment that can gain equity in the long run.

At the same time, you have to be willing to look for someone of substance in the first place.

And before anyone asks, no, my wife does not have a sister you can ask out.

Cheap alternative

[Coke in a Can]

Use an onion ring!

the truth...?

[sundip01]

call me crazy, or whatever....

my gf said she didn't need a ring. but I got one for her anyways. why? I don't know about everyone else, but I found one that was beautiful and I wanted her to have it. it's a very nice ring and I spent quite a bit of money on it, but the look on her face made it all worth it.

somethings to note: I went through a family friend which I think helped in terms of price, and I did my best to get a stone that was not in conflict (prob no way to know for sure though).

Gimme a break

[stixman]

Seriously. If you can't talk to each other about this, then you are fools to even consider marriage.

In this case it's not about a lack of communication. Even is she's the love of your life and your best friend, she wants to be surprised with THE ROCK, per American Tradition (TM). Not every girl is so sentimental, but if so this is by no means a measure of one's readiness to get married.

Re:Gimme a break

[kirkjobsluder]

Even so, by this time the guy should know what the perfect gift is. (For me, it was a spontaneous thing w/ no ring on a roller coaster. It's a family tradition.(The absence of a ring, not the roller coaster.)) He should know if she will appreciate it because it came from him and reflects a lot of thought or if nothing but the diamond will do. If you know what her values are, then the rest should be obvious.

Exactly!

[Otter]

As the story points out, diamond engagement rings were first popularized a few generations ago. That means that unless people are being buried with their rings, there is finally a large pool of heirloom rings competing with the retail market.

My wife got my grandmother's engagement ring. My sister-in-law got one of the diamonds from when my grandmother's family converted their assets into gems before fleeing the Nazis in Austria. My other sister-in-law got, I believe, her grandmother's ring. In all cases, the price was right and the rings are much more meaningful for having a history behind them.

Obviously, not everyone's family has a backlog of diamonds. No disrespect meant to anyone -- just pointing out an option that many people do have.

Man + Money (Diamonds) = Woman

[Futurepower(R)]

Man + Money (Diamonds) = Woman

Don't you see? In that equation, men are of less value than women. She doesn't care about the diamond at all. Why would she; as you say diamonds cannot be sold. Her interest is that you establish yourself as of lesser value in the relationship; in that kind of relationship she will have control.

If you truly understand what's happening here you need to do two things: 1) Either call off the marriage or investigate the true nature of your relationship, and 2) Definitely avoid any action which indicates you are an inferior, such as buying a diamond.

If you have a wedding, will she wear white, the color of an angel? And will you wear black, the color of a villain?

Don't get into anything important that you can't or don't understand.

Re:Man + Money (Diamonds) = Woman

[Shuh]

A-men!

Diamond shopping tips...

[da0g]

That new computer that set you back $2000 is going to be a boat anchor in a couple of years. How long do you expect your relationship to last? What are you willing to spend on it? (Because those "wife" and "motherhood" upgrades are going to make that ring look like chump change.)

Buying diamonds: Local mall shops are good for getting a feel for what the 4-C's mean. But for god's sake, don't buy from them. First of all, what they have is crap. Second, it's extremely overpriced crap. (Well above the "list" price.)

In most major cities there are some major diamond vendors. In Pittsburgh, they're downtown in the Clark building. They are worth checking out. These guys will sell diamonds at the "list" price.

Now check out BOMI. Call them -- Their website is best used for the phone numbers. Bomi sells for under the "list" price. Their merchandise is top notch. And they do mail-order. (Sprite, if you are reading this, this is why your stone was 50% larger and a grade better in quality than you thought I could afford.)

Oh, and in case you've overlooked the obvious: Get it insured! Talk to the folks who are selling your homeowners insurance, renters insurance, or at worse, car insurance, and see about adding to your policy.

I've become cynical about them...

[bwoodring]

I built the website for, and helped run a company that sells discount diamonds on the web. Over the course of working for them, I became pretty cynical about the industry. The diamond market is incredibly over-priced and price-fixed. It was very easy for us to undercut retail jewelers because they typically mark up diamonds by 3x wholesale. (this is actually recommended by all of the wholesalers I've seen).

On the other hand, diamonds do look much better than CZ, and you can always tell the difference when they are next to each other, especially under natural lighting. Moissanite, however, look very close and can even fool less skilled jewelers.

Diamonds *do* have resale value. Some dealers won't want your diamond, because they don't want to risk getting de-frauded, but many dealers do buy good used diamonds, and it isn't hard to sell a decent diamond in the newspaper or forums.

I personally think stones like ruby, sapphire or emerald are more beautiful and more rare. I bought my fiancee a diamond (wholesale for me of course) because I was concerned that she would be self-concious around friends if I didn't. Would they think I didn't value her as much?

In the end, I think buying a diamond is one of those things that doesn't make much sense, but you will take a lot of crap if you ignore it, kinda like women changing their last name when they get married or celebrating Christmas. But if your fiancee doesn't mind, and you don't mind taking some crap from friends, then you can save the money.

Re:I've become cynical about them...

[Negadecimal]

Moissanite, however, look very close and can even fool less skilled jewelers.

Heck, Moissanite (silicon carbide) can fool even the most skilled jewelers. It shares almost every physical property with true diamond: hardness (9.7 on Moh's), color, transparency, and a high index of refraction - which is why diamonds always look so much better than CZ.

In fact, I think there are only three ways to really tell them apart: infrared absorption spectra, electrical conductivities, and relative densities (which isn't practical).

And of course, most jewelers now have little handheld tools to test for these properties, and so very few are ever fooled. But it's not really a function of skill...

you're on your own.

[Codger]

As for what I did, I took her to Carson Pirie Scott during their sale-sale-clearance-sale-sale days and she picked out a great (big) aquamarine with a couple of dinky diamonds around it. Didn't set me back much and it appraised much higher than was paid. I was as much against the diamond machine and she knew it, but she seems happy with the ring and all. Of course, every woman is an individual, despite what you may have heard and know about group potty breaks, and as such find out for yourself what she wants. And for pete's sake, talk about it! If you can't work out a ring for her, what does that portend for your future?

The Diamond Life documentary video

[Piic]

I have many of my own "issues" concerning the obviously industry-driven push towards forcing men to buy their loved ones jewelry to prove said love... I made a very strong case to my wife when we were engaged about how diamonds and wedding rings were only as important as you make them, and that any other "thing" could easily hold as much value if you so chose. Of course, as another poster mentioned elsewhere, there are many more forces external to the primary parties, who create intense social pressures that most women are not likely to ignore.... Thus, we ultimately bought rings, one with diamonds. Further thoughts on this issue withheld to provide the following info:

After seeing the documentary from the Guerilla News Network called The Diamond Life on issue 2.4 of Substance TV, I am now wishing I had looked more carefully at where these diamonds we bought came from. The situation surrounding "conflict diamonds" is astounding to say the least, and this video slams that point home in a very disturbing and enlightening way. I highly recommend anyone who thinks they need diamonds for some reason to watch this thing.

As far as alternatives to a "real" diamond, my wife has briefly told me about an artificial, lab-created diamond called Moissanite, which is apparently created from carbon crystal, thereby making it quite similar to real diamonds. One place to find out more about this is at www.moissanite.com, but I don't know if that's the official source of this material. Entering the term into Google reveals many links, but I'm not the one interested in this stuff, so go there for yourself if you'd like.

I, for one, really like the idea of things like this being created artificially. It seems to me that a perfect diamond is certainly as beautiful as a perfectly similar replica... and nobody has to die so my wife can have one.

Re:The Diamond Life documentary video

[BrentN]

Actually, Moissanite is gemstone grade silicon carbide. SiC.

www.moissanite.com

Why A Diamond? Why even a Ring?

[greymond]

Honestly. With so many divorces that happen all the time me and my girlfriend just decided it would be better to live together. Why do you need a ring - you could use a necklace just as easily - if you really want something to last forever get a tattoo. I don't see any reason to get married/use a diamond ring - save if your a religious person (ANY religion) and its considered "tradition" although EVERYONE has there OWN "traditions". If you must go diamond though make sure its worth it - because a lot of women DONT give back the ring if you/they change there minds.

Careful

[rhombic]

When you buy a Ti ring, make sure you don't get aircraft grade Ti or any of the other super-hard alloys that are commonly sold. Stick with pure unalloyed Ti. If you have an emergency and are wearing an aircraft-grade Ti ring, many E.R.'s won't be able to easily cut it off.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

You're doomed

[Black Jack Hyde]

Unless she drags you to a jeweler and points out a sapphire/emerald/other stone and says that's what she wants, she wants a diamond. Unless you want to hear for the rest of your married life her sadly sighing to family and friends about how it's ok that *she* never had a diamond, here's your shirt, now follow the herd to the mall and get her one.

Heh. I bet you think this is the worst of it. Does she have long beautiful hair? Say bye-bye to it by the third year. Enjoying a regular sex life? Watch that vanish like free tchotchkes at a convention. Got any interests of your own? Fuggedaboutit.

Jack

REDS

[CrazyDuke]

REDS stands for:

1. Ruby
2. Emerald
3. Diamond
4. Sapphire

...and is the value in order from greatest to least for the expensive faceted stones in the 4 C system. As for your GF, I have been told by several women that they will drop clues as to which specific ring to buy by pointing it out and expecting you to remember.

simple....

[Morphine007]

you want a ring that says "DAMN!!!" to her and to all her friends and doesn't need a diamond... and you'll feel good about cause you blew a small fortune... then simple...

!!!!!!!PLATINUM!!!!!!

Plat looks amazing and is expensive as all hell... you'll feel good about it, she'll love it, and her friends will drool over it... win win

Diamonds versus other stones

[MrIcee]

As you are probably aware, the diamond market is fixed. Diamonds are not a rare stone and thus, in order to get prices, the price range is fixed according to grade.

Never buy a diamond as an investment. The only exception to this is antique diamonds. The signature of the diamond and any inclusions or flaws it has can point to the mine it came from. Some mines no longer produce diamonds and thus antique diamonds from such places are worth much more, on the collector market.

Another exception to diamonds, and a really beautiful alternative, is to try colored diamonds. Yellow, Red and Blue/BlueGreen diamonds are SPECTACULAR. Super bright and super colorful. Additionally, their rariety is greater thus it puts it out of the normal diamond market and into collector stones (but be prepared to pay alot more).

The basic premise I'm going by here is that, regardless of your love intent etc... you also want the purchase to get more valuable over time (much as your love will grow), as opposed to being a loss as soon as you leave the store.

Another possibility is that you use minimal diamonds, for their sparkle, along with other rarer gemstones. Alexandrite is one of the rarest now (especially color changing alexandrite which shifts from red to green depending on whether your in natural or artifical light). Most of the mines are completely mined out - and the remaining mine only produces smaller and smaller stones, so any alexandrite would probably be a great investment (until, that is, a huge undiscovered alexandrite mine is found). Likewise for tanzanite - which has a horrid series of stories about brutality in the mine industry (though you can say that about all gemstones, including diamonds).

Finally, consider not using stones at all. When I got married we found a metalsmith that took gold and crafted it into mobius strip wedding rings (one-sided one-edged rings)... they were outstanding, and rather comfortable as well. No stones, but certainly one-of-a-kind and chock full of all sorts of hidden meanings (and the two rings together cost a paltry $90 - in the early 80's).

Engagement Ring

[Gilmoure]

I got my wife a custom made ring with amathyst. It was carved as a snake eating a flower (with amathyst inside) and another snake holding it. For reference, check out the Silmarillion; Ring of Finrod Felegund.

Great idea

[drew_kime]

An engagement is a once-in-a-lifetime event; save your consumer ethics for more trivial occasions (anniversaries, Christmas, etc).

Absolutely. Be proud of those ethics so long as they don't really interfere with anything you care about.

Re:Great idea

[kkkalen]

Right. So let's all let the ethics slide, slide slide. But I dirgess; I want to address the matter in a different way:

What I haven't seen suggested yet is that the issue be brought up with the girlfriend in question. Why not ask her how she feels about the matter? Maybe she's dreading the thought of a diamond. OK, maybe not. But if you bring up your concerns with her, it will 1) show her that you actually care about something other than programming and getting laid and 2) tell you that you are or are not going to get married to someone who at least cares about your concerns. Listen to her reaction when you bring this up. See if she is actually listening to you.

Who's to say an engagement is a once in a lifetime event anyway. It wasn't for me and it probably goes for a hell of a lot more people than that - 50% divorce rates and all.

Re:Great idea

[Anonymous Canard]

I'm sure the girl agrees with him in theory. The problem is that she also knows that the first thing all of her girlfriends are going to ask her after she mentions that she is engaged is to see the ring. Now even if she agrees that the ring is a load of shit that is being foisted on her by society, she'll have a hard time with the pitying looks from aquaintances who will incorrectly assume that he doesn't love her very much.

So to solve the petty angst she'll be feeling she will dump her disappointment back on him, he'll get mad, they'll fight, and break up. Voila! He really didn't love her very much. :(

Ok, so that doesn't happen all the time. Still you might be better off if you spend at least half again as much as you would have spent on the ring getting her something else that is visible adornment (that way she can say, oh, he didn't get me anything nearly as tacky as a diamond -- just look at this black star opal...) It really is important to make her feel special.

Re:Great idea

[Arkan]

Be proud of those ethics so long as they don't really interfere with anything you care about.

There's one more thing that can make it really special: tell her about your doubts and questions about this ring, but buy it. It will be far more important to her if she knows that you had to make a real ethical effort to buy one.

--
Arkan

Re:Great idea

[NBarnes]

> It will be far more important to her if she
> knows that you had to make a real ethical
> effort to buy one.

Um... it will be far more important to her to know that you had serious ethical qualms about it, but did it anyway because of social pressure? I don't think my girlfriend would exactly look up to me for that one.

Moissanite

[szquirrel]

I'm surprised I haven't seen this one mentioned yet.

Moissanite

Synthetic gemstone made of silicon carbide. Similar to a diamond in toughness and beauty, so much so that many trained jewelers can't tell the difference. Also costs about 1/10 as much.

Rumors say that some jewelry stores will literally throw you out if you ask about Moissanite. DeBeers sure as hell doesn't sell it, but a quick Google search turns up many retailers who do.

Re:Moissanite

[SarGapper]

My wife is a big fan of Moissanite. It is much cheaper than diamond (although much more than CZ) has more brilliance than most diamonds and is just as hard. It also seems to be true that many, if not most, jewelers can't differentiate between a diamond and a moissanite.

The company that creates this, Charles and Colvard (http://www.moissanite.com/), is starting to do some significant marketing, including getting well known celebrities, athletes, etc to provide testimonials and selling through a lot more jewellry stores and online. All towards getting true market awareness and acceptance.

All the same, I certainly wouldn't suggest giving something other than a real diamond unless that is ok with the recepient!

Article...

[netsharc]

it's funny you should mention about diamonds, I was reading slasdhot when I saw a comment with this link: Glass with Attitude, an interesting article about the truth with them, something I never realized before. Interesting read..

You're Screwed -- or Not

[Noexit]

If the girl wants and expects a diamond, you better get her one. You *do not* want to hear about it the entire time you're married, and when you get divorced you won't have anything to either hock or haggle over. Sure, it's a bogus tradition, but you prolly got her something for Valentine's day, and I bet you got down on one knee to propose. Sorry dude, I'm with you, but in reality you gotta get the rock.

Don't buy her one!

[bigattichouse]

I never bought my wife an engagement ring. In fact, I was the first boyfriend she had that DIDN'T ... we've been married 7 years, and I don't want to jinx it now!

Science can easily solve this.

[HillBilly]

Get a lump of coal and stick it up her butt or yours.

I Got my wife a Tree

[Zapdos]

It is planted in one of our city parks, is professionally cared for, and has a sign that declares My Love to Her. A ring would have been cheaper. The tree cost $6000.00 which would have bought a very nice rock.
Our wedding was under the tree. We are planning to buy a bench to place under the tree as soon as the city allows.

Re:I Got my wife a Tree

[Anonymous Coward]

Awwwwwwwwww. That's so.......so........fucking stupid.

Re:I Got my wife a Tree

[PatJensen]

That is cool! How did you go about doing something like that? What city is the tree in? What made you think about getting her a tree?

-Pat

Re:I Got my wife a Tree

[sk8tr]

That is very cool you should be commended and more people do things like this. I think that your tree shows more love and caring that a million rocks dug out of the mud.

I let her pick. She went for the zirconia.

[andrews]

It was easy really. She designed the rings, had them made by a custom jewler and used a cubic zirconia for the stones. The personally designed rings mean a lot more to us than the stone. I can't tell the difference anyway. Don't buy into the diamond hype, but make sure she agrees. Don't do the zirconia and tell her it's a diamond.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[realdpk]

Flowers don't cost as much as a new car. That's the difference there.

a caveat ...

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Asking a few thousand of his closest friends for suggestions, before going to her for that discussion, is a very useful thing to do.

But note that a gentleman will NOT discuss the actual relationship itself - either during or after - in a way that will reveal a lady's secrets or reflect badly on her.

How to save big on diamonds (legally)

[X-Nc]

I when through this in '90 when I was getting married. We shopped around for some good rings at some decent places. They all went through the "two months salary" speil.

Then we happened on a place where the sales guy told us to look at loose stones rather than set ones. The reason is that loose stones are kept in little paper envelops where the price is written (in pencil) on. When the prices change they just erase or cross out the old price and write the new one. What does this mean?

At the time two months salery for me was about $1800. The one thing about loose stones is that, when the jewlers are pricing them (daily) they occationally make mistakes. Sloppy writing or just dropping a digit are not uncommon. The stone we ended up with was one of those. It's proper price was supposed to be $1500 but someone forgot to write the "1". This meant that I got a .45 K with great color, cut & clarity mounted on a very nice gold setting for a grand total of $560. A year later the ring was appraised at $2650. (OC, you do have to be careful as that missinf digit could end up on another envelope).

Find a good, reputable diamond mertchent and check this out. It could be well worth the time.

Re:Opals are a bad idea.

[AxelBoldt]

but when I got engaged, I still expected my man to cough up a diamond.

What did you give him in return? Sex?

A deeper examination of the relationship...

[irishkev]

A deeper examination of the relationship may be in order. I'm not kidding. Humor me for a moment:

He's obviously socially conscious and aware of the fraud and criminality behind the diamond trade. Yet she really REALLY wants a diamond. WTF? This isn't about diamonds, it's about core values. And I can't believe that so many of the allegedly justice minded slashdotters are saying, "It's your future wife, just get her the diamond." What if she wanted to keep a slave around the house and lock him or her up at night?

Those diamonds (mostly) represent death and despair. I would refuse. I don't care what the consequences were. Give her a plain wedding band, I say, and cherish the bond that it represents. If she MUST have that rock... WORRY.

Diamonds? hmmm........

[lasertech]

You should probably ask my ex-wife.

Ever been to an estate sale?

[Skyshadow]

The point is that you *CAN* get used diamonds on the cheap. I have a friend who went to an estate sale, bought a gaudy old-lady ring and had the diamond set into a new setting. Paid maybe 1/3 less than he would have otherwise.

Now, if DeBeers ever falls apart, diamonds will be worth about as much as it costs to put and polish them.

Re:Ever been to an estate sale?

[Tablizer]

(* The point is that you *CAN* get used diamonds on the cheap. I have a friend who went to an estate sale, bought a gaudy old-lady ring and had the diamond set into a new setting. Paid maybe 1/3 less than he would have otherwise. *)

Just make sure that she will *never ever* find out that it is USED, or you are in deep shlop. That is probably why it is not done very often.

Re:Ever been to an estate sale?

[puppet10]

Its not USED, its an heirloom or antique diamond.

You just need to know how to put it in a favorable light. :>

Re:Ever been to an estate sale?

[Dokta_C]

Funny, I bought mine a lovely three stone diamond ring at auction. Platinum mount, C.1920.
She knew it was second hand (she wrote the entry in the catalogue) but she didn't seem to think it was important.

Re:Ever been to an estate sale?

[EllisDees]

Just make sure that she will *never ever* find out that it is USED, or you are in deep shlop.

Why? Do you think it's worn out or something?

That is probably why it is not done very often.

No, it's done because most people are sheep and believe whatever the television tells them.

Re:Ever been to an estate sale?

[Skyshadow]

Just make sure that she will *never ever* find out that it is USED, or you are in deep shlop.

Are you kidding? I did a bunch of research, found out all about the diamond's previous owners and told her all about their lives.

Re:Ever been to an estate sale?

[Tablizer]

Its not USED, its an heirloom or antique diamond. You just need to know how to put it in a favorable light. :>

If I had those kind of sales skills, I wouldn't be a geek. I would be selling lemonmobiles to grannies.

You don't know what is gonna work and what is not except possibly the hard way: a black eye and girl-less is probably a 50/50 outcome in this case.

It is all about risk. You either do it "right" and spend the money, or take big risks.

Re:Ever been to an estate sale?

[Tablizer]

(* Why? Do you think it's worn out or something? *)

You brand-A snorklehead! It is NOT what *I* think that counts!

Geez. No wonder geeks never get any. By the time they figure it out, the party is over. (Been there done that.)

So sell it on Ebay

[Gorimek]

Don't pawn it, sell it.

I find it telling...

[bashibazouk]

That there is no opinion/post on this article from an obviously female perspective. Interesting that.

RTFQ, genious

[barzok]

My girlfriend understands my thoughts regarding diamonds, but deep down, I'm sure she would like a diamond

Yes, they obviously have talked about it. Your eyes will work much better once you're removed them - and your head - from your ass.

Simple cost savings

[DaveV1.0]

Find a 2 or 3 used diamond rings, take them to a jewler and have them turned into a single engagement ring in a custom mounting. Remember, they have little resale value, so you can get the source rings cheap.

Yes, it's worth it.

[chrysrobyn]

I know there are some people who go for the alternative side. We certainly like to try to spend our money in ways that have the most benefit.

The principle behind the diamond is to symbolize your commitment. You're telling her that you want to spend the rest of your life with her. Resale value? Are you sure that marriage is the right next step? Perhaps there are some more conversations to have.

I've been proudly and happily married to the love of my life for almost 2 years.

Better quality diamonds are able to be man made for cheaper. But, a good jeweler won't serve them. Volunteer to make up for your conscience. Show your love by finding a good jeweler, being honest, and buying what she deserves. First, find out why you're worrying about resale value and take care of it.

Just buy it...

[NetJunkie]

I agree, diamonds are a scam. But, how much do we spend on video cards and cpu upgrades that don't last any time and only offer a minor increase?

This is something she'll have FOREVER. Just buy it and consider it an investment in your future together. My wife has a small diamond that I bought when I had no money and she loves it as much as a huge diamond that cost a mint... It's the thought that she wants.

Re:Just buy it...

[crsgrg]

Yes, DeBeers are an evil monopoly controlling the gem quality diamond supply and artificially setting prices. Their marketing is also brilliant. I used to work for a mining consulting company and even the HINT of a major diamond find outside of South Africa caused waves of exploration and investment activity, and apparently also quiet negotiation, buyout/partnership and control of said potential supply by DB. Kind of like another monopoly mentioned a lot around here. Resistance to the tradition is certainly understandable.

Look at it this way - In Retail, womens' money is considered easy money (maybe easier than geeks' money) - clothing, shoes, cosmetics, skin care, hair care, jewelry - and all that is to look good for men (you). The eventual diamond symbolizes the payoff (commitment ).

Bite the bullet do like the man says and just buy it.

(I've been told (I'm not married) that blowjobs generally stop soon after marriage. I imagine that not putting out for the rock will end them that much sooner).

A splash of color . . .

[Java Ape]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm a GIA certified gemologist as well as a geek. Diamonds have been a racket for a long time, and nothing has changed. I hate watching people spend their life savings for chip of crystalized carbon, but it IS tradition. Have you talked with your fiance? How does she feel? Why are you worried about the resale value -- you ARE planning on being married forever, aren't you? In all honesty, if she wants a diamond to show her friends, bite the bullet, mutter at the unfairness of the universe, but get the diamond. A few thousand pales in comparison to the long-term costs of maintaining a family. DON'T get a fake - it will, at some point, get tested! (I used to have newlywed women come to the store all the time for "appraisals" - sheesh!). If your girl is not the materialistic flavor, there is hope. I highly recommend colored stones, but talk with a good gemologist before buying. Many stones are too soft, or have too many cleavages to work well in a wedding ring. In my case, my wife wanted a diamond, but was emphatic that it not be too large (big stones and mountings tend to be uncomfortable and snag on everything). After sounding out her feelings, I purchased a second-hand diamond ring, and revamped the mounting (incredible savings, as you have noticed, the secondary market stinks.) The result is a lovely ring that is exactly what she wanted, for a total investment of about $250. Since I wanted to show a bit of class, I built a second ring, with a large Tsavorite (a rare green garnet) as a wedding present for her. It has gone up considerably in value, complements her eyes far better than any diamond, and the baroque setting, while too large for daily wear, is something that always gets compliments. So, get a diamond if you need to, if not, the colored stone market is generally a much better investment (particularly if you have a gemologist buddy). Finally, remember that there are several reputable sources for gemstones on the web, and you can buy the stone(s) at near wholesale cost, and have them set by any competent goldsmith. Best of luck!

Diamonds Are Not Forever, They're For Fools

[asackett]

Only a fool will give two months of his life in exchange for a pretty rock.

In a decade or so, the woman who sells that rock to a pawn shop for 15% of what you paid for it will be known to your friends as "the bitch", and most of them will not even be able to recall her given name. You'll be known to her friends as "the asshole", and they'll know of flaws you never had.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against marriage, my current wife, or my ex-wives, or any of my as-yet unknown future ex-wives.

Still, a diamond meets none of a human being's basic needs, has no true utility, and loses much of its emotional value quickly.

There's nothing more romantic than putting her name on a mortgage.

If she wants a diamond, buy her one

[horse]

Sure it's stupid, but it's her you are trying to please, not yourself.

If you love her, it's her happiness you are seeking.

Re:Hmmm... TRADITIONS!? WTF!!!?

[Golias]

However, supporting slavery moved the common laborer up one level in social standing. In other ways, the poor Irish immigrant was worse off than the negro slave. They were called in to do dangerous work because if they died, it was of no concern to the land/company owner.

Right. That's why all those slaves were constantly laughing at the plight of the Irish immigrants, and were really sad to lose those comfortable and prestigious slave positions when that bastard Abe Lincoln had them all fired. Also, those chains were just fashion accessories; deep down, they didn't really want to escape or murder their owners or anything.

The truth is, Irish immigrants chose to take shitty and dangerous jobs for the money, becuase they had just fled conditions of abject poverty and starvation back in Ireland. Blacks, on the other hand, were hauld to America like cargo, lived their whole lives in bondage, doing hard labor from the moment they could walk, and were casually discarded when (or, rather, if) they got old.

I find it a little astonishing that Southern revisionism of the brutal facts of slavery still continue to this day.

Two more words:

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Pawn shop.

Genuine antiques without the markup.

And you can always take the stone out and have it put in a new or different setting.

---

Watch out if your jewler wants to cut a diffraction pattern in a used ring to make it new - for free. He gets to keep the gold removed by the cutting process - more than enough to pay for his efforts - and fine surface patterns in gold wear smooth quickly so the effect lasts only a year or less.

There are other countries...

[SoSueMe]

There are other, less oppressive, countries to obtain diamonds from.
Where?
Canada.
What? Canada?
There are only Igloos and Eskimos (Inuit) up there, right?

Not so, there are also Polar Bears.
http://www.siriusdiamonds.com/home.htm

If you're Canadian, buy Canadian.
If you're American, buy North American.

Just a suggestion.

Re:There are other countries...

[Old Uncle Bill]

This is a fantastic suggestion! Show her you care, and buy North American diamonds. Besides, I suspect anyone delving too deeply into De Beers' business will find themselves walked off a short pier.

Re:There are other countries...

[tgt]

Agree. AFAIK, canadian diamonds are better than african, more expensive though. I've been to one of the recently opened canadian mines once - haven't seen'em working deep under, but I tell you - _camp_living_ conditions the miners have are amazing ! Here: http://www.diavik.com/

Re:There are other countries...

[Anonymous Coward]

What, Canada is not yet part of the axis of evil? Bush must have had a slow day.

Re:There are other countries...

[onepoint]

Well the problem is that when you want a specific type of diamond it becomes harder to buy in north america. I just recently bought a 6.5 carret yellow diamond for my wife ( 7 year aniversy and we know each other for 19 years ). she always wanted one. She made alot of sacrafices for the family and has been always at my side. so I ended up going to HW in NY to buy it. cost a fortune but the smile she has when she places it on her finger remind me of our first time we met in high school. So for me it was well worth it and I was willing to buy a diamond that did not come from North america.

Also in north america we can get opals and saphires of rather good quality. In maryland, there is a company that makes synthetic rubies of the highest grade.

ONEPOINT

Re:There are other countries...

[SerpentMage]

That's right... You will not be supporting DeBeers at all! NOT!

All of the Canadian Diamond mines have been bought by DeBeers so that the price of diamonds does not go soft. This is because the Canadian diamond mines hold a HUGE respository of diamonds. One of the largest.

Me personally I refuse to buy a diamond because it is absolutely artificial. Ok there is tradition and the likes, but even there are limits on that topic. Do something original.... Get her some native jewelry or approved coral or other truly rare item.

Re:There are other countries...

[shilly]

You bought a 6.5 carat yellow diamond?! Do you mean yellow as in off-white (i.e., not a desired colour) or yellow as in fancy light, vivid, intense etc (i.e., a desired colour). If it's the latter, then you are one very rich man -- that must have cost 50k+. I bought my wife a 1.26FLY diamond from Graff and that stone alone was worth £5k.

Re:There are other countries...

[ChuyMatt]

Well, hell! Arkansas has diamonds too! too bad they are industrial grade and look like crap apparently. Oh well. How are the Canadian diamonds?

Re:There are other countries...

[onepoint]

yes desired color, but I saved a small bit becasue I called in a favor from a third party that gave me a formal introduction to the firm HW.

Graff is a good firm also and have many nice items but you can not ( atleast up to 2 year ago, request that stones come from the USA and they will not deal in synthetics even for custom made orders )

Also, depending on whom you know or where you associate would advise that you have a custom duplicate of the jewlery you bought your wife ( using CZ's of course ) so as not to have the risk of theft happen. you would be surprised how this will protect you if you are ever carjacked or your house is robbed ( the fakes are the ones you leave in the dresser jewel box )

you can safely estimate that the CZ / glass imitations will cost you:

original true jewlery = 25K cost
custom duplicate = 7% of the true, + material, + craftmanship labor ( about 5% of the true items cost )

also report that you do this with the insurance company and you get an extra 10% to 30% savings.

Mike

Re:There are other countries...

[shilly]

Thanks for the tips and info; nice to know that there's other folks out there with the good taste to recognise that a yellow diamond is something really special...

Steve

What sexist superficial crap!

[fejji]

Why is it that the MAN is the one who has to dump $4000 on a ring and the WOMAN spends nothing? If you think that your reward is sex then that is nothing but prostitution and you could use that $4000 for 20 trips to the local massage parlor - that's a whole year of paid-for sex with real pro's. True equality means both sexes are subject to the same rules. Where is my $4000 engagement computer?

Re:He snuck in

[falzer]

Somehow they regain their virginity.

Synthetic diamonds

[Dirtside]

Hearing those in the traditional diamond business talk about the "threat of synthetic diamonds" always amuses me. I can't help but think that if Americans (or, heck, people in general) were more comfortable with the nature of matter (and science in general), this wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.

What I see is that two diamonds, atomically indistinguishable, can be viewed in different ways by the same person. Why? Because one of the diamonds gestated deep in the earth for thousands of years, and the other was created in a lab in an hour two weeks ago. There is some kind of emotional response to really old things that are forged by the fires of the deep... yadda yadda.

Well, what is a diamond? Literally, it's nothing more than carbon atoms arranged in a particular structure. Any two carbon atoms are indistinguishable (assuming they're the same isotope, say C12). The carbon atoms in the synthetic diamond are the same millions of years old as the carbon atoms in the "real" diamond... but the "real" diamond's carbon was down inside the earth, and the synthetic diamond's carbon was tooling around on the surface, probably in the form of biomass for the most part.

So let's say you take one carbon atom from the surface, and one carbon atom from deep inside the earth. Well, they aren't diamonds yet, they're just carbon atoms. Indistinguishable. If you put them in a box and shook the box, when you opened it again, you would never be able to inspect the atoms and tell which one had been the deep atom and which had been the surface atom. So now you take a few more atoms from each location and start adding them to the original atom, to form microscopic diamonds. Let's say each one is formed from 100 carbon atoms. Not much of a diamond, and certainly nobody would care about the difference. Now you up it to 1,000 atoms. Is it a "real" diamond, worthy of emotional differences due to the source of the atoms now? If not now, when? 10,000 atoms? A million? A billion? A trillion?

I think it's entirely a function of recent history that there's any kind of stigma at all against synthetic things that are otherwise identical to "real" things. When we get to the point where the ring-buying population (twentysomethings) has grown up with the idea of synthetic diamonds being just as good (if not better) than the "real" thing, not to mention cheaper, things will, hopefully, change.

Re:Synthetic diamonds

[dlb]

Sounds like you've never been in a serious relationship before.

Re:Synthetic diamonds

[Dirtside]

Well, thanks for flaming, since you couldn't think of anything actually useful to say.

I understand all the reasons why our society has these memes about shiny jewels. I was pointing out that I think they're going to be deflated a bit in decades to come. My wife and I (NB: serious relationship) both agree that shiny things are nice, but the importance our society appears to place on big diamonds is excessive and probably harmful.

Buy a Canadian Diamond

[puppetman]

There are diamond mines in Northern Canada (http://www.wholesalecanadiandiamonds.com/ - you can browse and buy online), and you won't be supporting terrorists, slave labour, civil war, etc, etc (though you will be supporting our socialist health-care system).

Of course, that doesn't help if you think we are being force-fed a useless commodity.

For that, go for a small diamond set with other stones (rubies, emeralds, etc). Or go for a small ring and get a pearl necklace.

Or go to your mother and see if she has any jewelry that she would donate and that you could have remade into an engagement ring.

My mother passed away four years before I got engaged. My sister inherited her large jewelry selection, but honoured my mother's request that my brother and I be able to pick out a ring for our future spouses.

Re:Buy a Canadian Diamond

[grendelkhan]

And more mines are opening in Canada, with the potential to dwarf the output and quality of African mines. The problem being, there's no way of knowing where your diamond came from. There's been zero incentive for diamond merchants to advertise that their diamonds aren't "blood diamonds", so obviously now that there's a much larger supply of them, there's no incentive to advertise "bloodless diamonds". Regardless of where they came from, they're still selling.

Re:Buy a Canadian Diamond

[Papineau]

All Canadian diamonds have a tiny polar bear engraved on them. So you can know if it comes from up-north or down-south.

Time honored tradition?

[AKAJack]

...not even close. Less than 100 years old. It might have meant something - for awhile - as one other poster pointed out; being a safety measure for an engaged woman to have something left even if the man backed out, but now it's all marketing and monopoly tactics.

Is this a geek chick?

[Get Behind the Mule]

... If she is, then for the equivalent price of the ring, give her the most bitchin' state-of-the-art piece of computer hardware you can get your hands on.

It'll have to be a laptop, of course, with gigahertz and gigabytes out the wazoo, more pixels and colors then there are Chinese, and more gadgets hooked in then you can fit into the room.

You'll have to install her favorite distro, of course, and lay out the desktops and workspaces just the way she likes it, all of this before she sits down the first time. And get the MP3 playlists set up so the she finds everything she's looking for in no more than two clicks.

But if she's not a geek, well, hm, then I guess you better go get the diamond.

Diamonds

[umass2ucr]

The marketing campaign has worked successfully on American women. You're screwed. You must suck up all your ethical concerns and buy the thing. It will cost just as much to try to reprogram any one woman of the propaganda that DeBeers has plagued our world with.

question a dupe for left agenda

[flyneye]

come on i almost believed this was a legitimate slashdot article.i was gonna answer that my gal and i have matching sterling bands and that was good enough cause we were poor when wed.i do plan on getting her a rock tho when i renew with her in a vegas ceremony officiated by "elvis"(dont ask)
but i was also gonna suggest contracting a jeweller
to cast a ring with whatever pattern style or ornamentation that means something to you both.
BUT THEN...i hit the link to the politically correct lefty propaganda site and i also see more at the end of the article. hell even i know diamonds have always been popular in jewelry.diamonds have always been kept high priced to make them status symbols.debeers isnt quite as old as diamonds so i can assume some lefty got a chip on his shoulder cause he couldnt keep the payments on his macdonalds pay and his fiance got her ring repoed.very embarrasing.so he
joins his fellow whiners with a cause.not realizing that if sucessful all those poor people who can mastubate instead of pokin poo,will starve along with their familys and countrymen because their economy has gone to shit due to a collapsed industry.but thats ok.lefty will get his Dems to send them aid out of our pockets cause hes sooo sensitive to their probs.what a nice guy.worst of all poor ol flyneye cant get the ol lady a fuckin rock so shell be happy enough to suck the chrome off my trailer hitch whenever i got the itch. and the leftys just bitch bitch bitch.NUKE THE WHALES.gimme my slashdot back and take your pansy bleating to yahoo.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you must...

[jgg]

Not Jewish, Dutch you f'n bigot.

Old EPROM chips...

[lugonn]

A friend and I back in college got our hands on 6 old trs80 terminals. We cannabalised them for eprom chips. Turns out you can't do much anymore with a 32k eprom, so we decided to take them apart to see if we could get the chips out.

Out of the dozen we cracked open, we had 3 intact chips. They are really fragile, but I'm sure a person who is not stoned and using a screwdriver, could probably harvest more.

Point is, I think semi-conductor-chips are way prettier than diamonds. The have all those cool colors that refract off of em in tiny patterns...trippy! Any geek chick whose worth her salt would like the eprom more, astetically anyway.

Dear lord...

[gmhowell]

Here goes the karma (and not in that joking 'haha, I'm just saying that to get upmodded'. Read on. You'll be lucky if this comment doesn't go to minus infinity)

Do you drive to work? Do you recycle? Are you a vegan? Every thing you do is going to piss someone off or hurt them. What's with this terrorism bullshit? The last time you bought a dime bag, did you consider that 99% of the cost of it went to terrorism?

Haven't seen it in the 3+ comments, so here goes:

Western nations have been trying for decades to bring some semblance of civilization to Africa. It ain't working. No matter what you do, someone is going to be getting over on someone in some rather heinous ways. The only thing keeping Egypt from a similar situation is the influence of Islam. (It's what eliminated MUCH of the fighting in the middle east as well. That it helped stir up more is not the point).

See, contrary to popular belief, it wasn't necessary for the white man to go very far inland to get slaves. One tribe bonks another and sells off the slaves they can't use.

For shits sake, large portions of the continent are still inhabited by those who commit female circumcision! Fuck 'em.

I have no idea why you assume you'll be screwed by a jeweler. Did you shop around? Get to know anybody? Or were you just a sanctimonious prick boohooing about the poor miners? Hit any estate sales? Pawn shops? There's plenty of places to get a ring.

But I've got a better idea. Just buy her something cheap. Unless she's a total pig, she'll get tired of you and divorce you in a year or so and find someone who has a pair. Or at least someone who will ask HER opinion on the subject.

Next on AskSlashdot: what type of toilet paper do you use? Do you wipe up or down? How does the roll face? Doesn't it bother you that ten trillion acres of virgin hardwood forest are clear cut every day so that you can wipe your ass?

Ethics? What ethics?!?

[harveyswik]

One wonders why such considerations are not taken in the purchasing of hardware toys? That is, how ethical it is given the conditions for the workers who take the compounds from the earth, refine it, and the factory workers who make the end product. Not to mention the environmental impact.

Example: Ammount of tantalum in a product?

Re:Hmmm... TRADITIONS!? WTF!!!?

[neocon]

Um no, no it didn't. The percentage of people in the US or the West in general who owned slaves was never very large (and included blacks as well as whites, by the way).

Now, if you want to talk about a country like Saudi Arabia, which only outlawed black slavery in this century, or the Sudan, where it is still practiced, yes, the percentages are a little higher.

Something actually unique...

[Ian Bicking]

Everyone seems to think she'll be terribly ashamed if she can't show her friends a diamond. Alright, I probably hang out with a different sort of people, but I feel pretty confident in our circles that wouldn't be a problem (at least among the opinions of people me and my SO would care about). Diamonds are just a status symbol, an empty vanity.

But, if there's a problem, I don't think it's a hard problem. If you give her an engagement ring that has some meaning -- even if it's a little sappy -- that will be much better than a diamond. She won't be able to show off the size of her stone, but she will have a story to tell, and that's a lot better. A diamond is just a commodity, whose value is a complete illusion. I don't know what sort of racket appraisers are involved in, but they are obviously lying when they value the items.

Coming up with a meaningful ring is hard, though (of course, that's what makes it more valuable to your fiancee). Maybe there's something in your or her family's past. If there's no ring, maybe there's something else that could be set in a ring. Maybe there's some tradition -- ethnic or otherwise -- that could serve as the basis of a design. Even if it's a tradition that only goes back one generation, you have to start somewhere.

Get something custom made by a good metalsmith, and you'll have something with far greater sentimental value than a boring stone. It might not be cheaper -- but you'll be supporting an artist, and not a cartel. (Remember though that it may take a while to get that ring made)

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[susano_otter]

That's not a problem with flowers, that's a problem with bullshit fake "holidays".

Try this: buy some roses for her on any other day of the year. Not only will they be easier and cheaper to get, but I guarantee you she will be ten times happier with a spontaneous sign of affection. All you're really saying on Feb. 14 is "I got you these flowers because my television told me to." Any other day of the year, the message is "I was driving home from work when it hit me how much I love you, so I stopped off at the store and bought you some flowers."

Alexandrite

[feetofclay]

I wanted something a little different for my fiancee and was looking at a blue diamond, but settled on an Alexandrite. It's green in flourescent or sun light and red in incandescent light. My brother and his gf were so impressed they bought the same stone (different setting) for their engagement.

other tradition

[Sparkly]

If you want another idea, go for Titanium tension set with any other gem. It LASTS forever, strong, durable, unscratable. A marriage shouldnt be a hassel. I for one as a girl got my engagement ring looked down on because it wasn't "the tradional ring." My fiance is dutch so I said let's combine traditions. They just have gold bands. Even though I didn't have to have a diamond, he got me a anniversary ring. If you don't know what that is, it's a small band with little diamonds that goes with your solitare. It was much cheaper and I'd rather have him than the a 4K solitare ring any day :) We are getting Titanium wedding bands cause we want it symbolic of our relationship. I pity the fool that has to to buy a 4K diamond. I really do. I'd rather have a DIAMOND monitor but maybe that is the geek girl coming out of me ;) I'm happy with my nontradional ring. Beside I've always said, the more expensive the wedding the faster the divorce. Remember Princess Di's wedding and her life? *2cents* here is some nice Titanium sites, http://www.titaniumcommitment.com/ http://boonerings.com/ http://www.titanium-rings.com/

Marketing

[CodeWheeney]

Marketing is the act of convincing you to buy something you don't need, with money you don't have, to impress people who don't care.

Re:Marketing

[CodeWheeney]

I should note that I didn't make this up, I heard it somewhere ages ago.

Platinum comfort fit bands

[PureFiction]

This is what I got my wife. It is a bit more subtle, which means she has no problems wearing it all the time, even when doing minor work with horses, etc.

Platinum bands do not have a mounted stone that can catch on things or fall out. This is a bigger problem than you think.

Platinum is also a truly scarce resource, and its high price is reflected by an open market rather than an artificial scarcity using monopoly powers (DeBeers).

In short, a nice platinum comfort fit band works great.

Skip the ring ...

[dsb3]

... pay off her credit card / college loan / whatever.

A plain and simple answer.

[AdrianErickson]

As a woman, I've thought about this extensively. Once I found out about the truth behind diamonds (as in the article), I switched my attention to rubies. Unfortunately, the really pretty ones are all lab-created. Still a ruby in all rights, but it lacks that elusive "rarity factor" - a necessity so well created by DeBeers.

My mother came up with the ultimate solution. Buy from Tiffany and Co. Their jewelry is very well made and has world wide renown, which means that no matter the setting or stone, what you spend is what it's worth, and is probably, at very least, the future resale value. Forget Diamond Blue, go for Tiffany Blue.

I went shopping once, and I found the perfect Tiffany ring, a 6mm ruby in a beautiful platinum setting, for about $6500. This is not outlandish or unreasonable for something one will wear, conceivably, for the rest of our lives, or if you are having a handclasping or pagan wedding, "as long as love shall last." And if love only lasts a few years, chances are the Tiffany name will be enough to ensure you get most if not all if not more out of your ring.

Finally, I am prone to losing things. If someone gave me a ring worth more than $1000, I would probably go nuts worrying about losing it. I would be really grateful if my future husband sat down, said, "I want to marry you, and I have X to spend on a ring, but how would you feel if we bought a fake stone in a quality setting (anywhere from $12 - $700)or an inexpensive ring and used the rest to buy a house/income property/investment vehicle?" I don't know about you ladies, but I'd marry him on the spot, and wear my fake ring symbolizing true love, belief in an everlasting future, and a commitment to providing for our family with PRIDE! I stress that there be another exchange - an investment or future dividend to be shared, at some point. A bride is worth that. A guy who just thinks it's a waste or is a cheapskate is worth little.

But if it's got to be a diamond, at least get it on ebay. Alternatively, have one custom made, and ask that they use *metals* of value, such as paladium and platinum as well as upper-end craftsmanship. That way, regardless the worthless lump of carbon, at least it means something special and retains some of your monetary investment. Love is not to be expressed in dollars and cents and the size of a diamond. Anyone who sees it that way is missing the point.

Re:A plain and simple answer.

[AdrianErickson]

BTW - My first engagement ring (didn't work out), was a dinky $150 platinum band. I still have it, and still wear it, and still love the guy who gave it to me. Every time I look at it, I think about how he STILL to this day makes sure I am okay, I think about the day he proposed, I think about how great we are as friends. It never enters my head to be spiteful for what he *didn't* spend.

Diamond

[geekoid]

first, diamonds are the most controlled substance available to consumers. They literally laid scattered across river banks and beaches in Africa, uncut obviously.

If you want to get her a rare gem, try an emerald, 19 times more rarer then diamonds.

If you don't get her a diamond, her girlfriends won't be impressed, and talk about her as if she is getting ripped off. You prbably won't come close to pleasing her mom. now that might not matter to you, but it will for your next marriage.

She may not even want diamonds, but women in American society have a lot of pressure to meet certian standards, getting married, having children and getting a diamond ring.

speaking of rings,don't get titanium. most men gain some wait after a few years, and it will be a bitch to cut off.

personally, I went with white gold, but then I got leperosy, my wife left me, and I started having the damndest halucinations....

Hey, I hope the best for you,and the future wife.

Re:Diamond

[BurningRome]

Nice subtle reference to Thomas Covenant........it almost got past me!

Two Words...

[Mulletproof]

Pawn Shop
Of course, you run the serious risk of loosing all your cool point if she finds out where you obtained it... And worse than cool points-- NO NOOKIE!!!

Re:Two Words...

[einhverfr]

Of course, you run the serious risk of loosing all your cool point if she finds out where you obtained it...

Shouldn't honesty be the foundation of a good marriage? Or am I hopelessly out of date?

Re:Two Words...

[meatspray]

possibly depricated . . .

DeBeers Diamonds... what are they actually worth?

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE]

I have done research on conflict diamonds for my debate class. I found that if the DeBeers released all of the diamonds they had in stockpile, that diamonds would be worth less than a grain of sand... Keep this in mind when buying a precious stone...

UH?

[borgdows]

Wait... that's not news!

The Atlantic article is 20 years old....

[sailracer6]

and apparently little has changed. Until the very end, when I saw the copyright, I thought the article had been written last week. While it predicts the end of the De Beers cartel, the evidence is clear that nothing of the sort as happened.

What a moral conundrum.

Absolutely

[dachshund]

Antique rings are about more than just the price. I couldn't stand the look of a lot of the modern stuff-- it's all boring chunky gold or platinum with a few diamonds thrown on top. The antique styles are so much more attractive and unique. And you shouldn't worry about the rings being 'secondhand', anymore than you'd worry about a vintage rolls-royce being a 'used car'. Would you rather buy a new Hyundai for the same price?

If you're anywhere near New York, go down to 47th street (between 5th and 6th avenues), and scour the diamond exchanges. Skip the obnoxious folks who try to force stuff into your hand and look at the smaller booths with art-deco and 30s/40s rings. You'll see more beautiful antique rings in one place than you'll find in all the antique stores in most cities.

Incidentally, I'm going to plug this guy because he was really good to us when we were shopping (no, I don't get a kickback from him.) The site gives you an idea of what I'm talking about.

Why bother?

[The G]

My wife and I were married without any particularly formal engagement. Why bother with the formalism -- it's most just irritating anyway. Just pick a date and get married then. Simplest thing in the world.

It's just about flipping the 'marriage' bit. No need for a thousand dollars of comments. Just

{
/* be engaged (short engagement for demonstration purposes) */
sleep(1000);
/* get married */
marriage=1;
}

I wouldn't pay more than $300 for those comments, and I wouldn't use code with more commentary than that. Keep it simple. Marriage ain't rocket (or even computer) science.
--G

Here in Brazil we don't use any gem

[gakeller]

Here, the most common (popular sense) engagement rings are just simple gold rings without any gem or decoration. There are rings with a diamond or sapphire, but they are far from being a tradition. Aside cultural differences, I think the main reason is that most brazilian people could not afford diamond rings. My engagement rings cost just about $40 to $50. So, in my oppinion, there is no need of a diamond. But, perhaps, someone in other country will say that is no need of ring at all :-).

from a girl...

[cathyy]

Hmmm, diamonds ARE a racket, and women know it. It is the single best opportunity for most women to get a piece of real quality jewelry. Remember that Lady Diana got a large sapphire, surrounded by small diamonds for her engagement ring. Some other stones, if of excellent quality, can be more expensive than a diamond. Think Emeralds and Rubies for that. All in all, I think she might be happy with a non-diamond ring, if it's an impressive enough ring. The trouble you run into then is the wedding band, and how to wear them both when they aren't meant to worn together. Perhaps a wedding band with a number of diamonds, commonly referred to as anniversary rings?

Re:from a girl...

[angeles13]

i agree. diamonds are definately NOT all that.
aquamarines, saphires, opals are great gems that aren't used as much. if you're concerned about the engagement ring matching, talk to a good jeweler and they can design something that will match not just the engagement ring to her wedding ring but your wedding ring (if you want one).

my sister uses her engagement ring as her wedding ring. that's an option also.

Women: (-1, Overrated)

[phillymjs]

Very, very poor timing on this Ask Slashdot. If I'm going to pledge two months' salary to buy ANYTHING today, it'll be a new Power Mac!

Why? Because a computer won't screw my two [alleged, and now-ex] best friends behind my back, like my last girlfriend did a few years ago. If I've learned anything from my dating experiences, it's that to trust people is to set yourself up for disappointment. I'd rather spend the money on a machine-- they're much more reliable.

~Philly

Re:Trust me, diamonds are worth it

[Foxman98]

How is this offtopic? Please - someone with some moderator points and a decent sense of humor click on the link for the picture (it's http://pics.steakandcheese.com/debeers.jpg) - and mod the above up - I don't care about the karma - but would really think a lotta people would find it amusing - and isn't that what moderators are for?

Unique alternative to diamonds

[maddugan]

I was dead set against diamonds way before I met my wife. Luckily, she agreed that burning half a years salary on something that small and had no applicable use was a waste of money. Instead we opted for multi-metal bands that give the impression of wood grain. Every ring is unique and hand crafted. Here is the link to where we got ours.

http://www.mokume-gane.com/

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[i7dude]

i completely agree...nut it up and get her one. look at it this way, if you have stated your beliefs and are truely passionate about not financing amoral people by buying diamonds...imagine the message you will send your girl...you love her so much that even somthing you believe in with all of your heart isnt as important as her.

well....either she'll think that, or just figure your're an incredible pussy and she'll be walking all over you the rest of your life.

dude.

I don't understand women, help!

[Omega1045]

I have looked in all the FAQs.

I have searched and searched throught the newsgroups, and even used Google's archived postings.

I tried help files.

I asked friends, personal and professional associates, team members.

I have actually gone to the library, and looked through the cards and done research.

I did extensive searches at BN, Borders, Amazon, BookPool and others.

I cannot find the answer. I cannot figure out women!

Buy the diamond.

Why buy a diamond?

[Ryan Amos]

Why do we buy diamonds? Is it because they're really pretty? Yes, but if that were the case we'd buy cubic zirconium rings; you can't tell the difference 5 feet away anyway. Is it because we're conditioned to buy them? Partially, though, like everyone has said, it's mostly a marketing gimmick crated in the 40s.

So why DO we buy diamonds? Because they're expensive. DeBeers knows this, that's why diamonds are so expensive. Jewelers know this, that's why they won't buy them back. If diamonds weren't so expensive, nobody would buy them. Because it's rather impractical to buy our beloved a 2 lb hunk of gold, we instead spend the money on a rock with artificial value, as if to say "I care about you so much, I just threw away 2 months salary. Will you be with me for the rest of my life (or until we hate eachother)?"

The moral of the story: Yes, diamonds are probably a bad choice. But it's not what you buy, it's how much you spent on it. If you don't want to buy her a diamond, that's perfectly fine; just find a diamond ring in the price range you're looking at and spend the same amount on say, a platinum band with other precious stones (rubies, emeralds, sapphires, whatever she prefers.) Her girlfriends won't chide her so long as it looks expensive (and it will.) Just make sure to spend a lot of money on it, whatever it is. :) That way you won't come off as a cheapskate.

Time-honored?

[0spf]

Actually the tradition you are referring too has been cultivated over the last 100 years or so. I was adamant about not buying my wife a diamond on our engagement 12 years ago for the same reasons you site. My bride to be informed me that it was not a big deal because the traditional engagement ring is the woman's birth stone. So it is really only a time-honored deBeers tradition.

The clue

[bucephalis]

"as if that wasn't enough, diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch. They'll sell you the shit, but damn it, they're not taking it back at any price."

Always an important consideration as one approaches marriage! 50/50 chance you'll have to pawn it!

If there was one rule for getting married

[wirzcat]

DO NOT go into debt getting engaged or married. 20 years down the road it won't matter if you spent $1k or $25k.
Any woman who demands you go into debt should be ignored and dumped because she will keep screwing your wallet forever.

It's worth it, but find a good, local jeweler.

[SailFly]

Avoid the mall, they only have over-priced junk. If you're near Delaware I would recommend Janet Grillo, who helped me a few years ago to find a great ring.

Good luck, and happy hunting!

Re:Trust me, diamonds are worth it

[Foxman98]

For those that need to cut and past - this is why diamonds are worth it guys! http://pics.steakandcheese.com/debeers.jpg

make something yourself

[crazy_swimmer]

My dad made a pair of copper rings himself, then had them "turned to gold" at the plating shop. Ingenious if you ask me.

Your solution

[GAPeach3]

As a woman, I hope you will find my advice more useful than just "Buy a diamond, dude."

Why don't you ask her?

Most women would be thrilled with just a beautiful ring - new, old, diamonds, rubies - whatever. I take it she is the epitome of selflessness and would love anything you gave her.

As an alternative, ask her mother, her sisters, and her friends. Most women discuss what their ideal engagement rings would be with each other; this is also a good way to find out her ring size, metal preferences, etc. You may even get hints on *how* to propose to her.

Good luck and congrats!

Style

[nick_davison]

It ultimately comes down to one of those "What kind of person are you marrying?" questions. If your value system tells you that a "princess" is the most desirable wife in the world, you're stuck with a princess' maintenance.

I was lucky. I married someone for whom funky stuff like integrity, thought, consideration, selflessness, originality were priorities. To her, the traditional goal of "it must be so big I can't lift my hand" was tacky, ostentatious, gaudy, all the hallmarks of a wannabe who needed validation from outside, rather than someone looking for something that had significance simply for what it was.

The end result for us was a third of a carat rub over setting on a really unique band. For her, it's perfect as it comes across as stylish, vastly more sophisticated and, her highest priority, she doesn't spend the rest of her life being scared of knocking a large rock out of a cheap setting.

I still managed to spend a fair bit of money, but that was on: getting it engraved (without her knowing) on the inside; on getting it rush ordered so I could still suprise her, even though we'd chosen it together; on finding the perfect time and place to do the proposing; on getting matching earings made to go with it. Those are all the subtle things that allowed me to put vastly more value in to it for her without buying in to a deliberate, tacky, hype.

So, like I said, it depends a lot on who you're marrying. If the biggest, gaudiest rock is simply the only way to feel she's valued, that's what you should get her - you chose that type of person. If style and the suble touches are what're important, congratulations, you've found someone who's going to appreciate everything you do for her, regardless of how well off you are at the time. That is the kind of woman I wanted to marry. :)

OK, now lets get back to bitching about Microsoft. This is getting sappy!

Your sig

[DunbarTheInept]

(about your sig)
Evidence of absence can't exist. So your sig essentially evaluates to "nothing is not equal to nothing", which is absurd on the face of it.

Re:Your sig

[cpeterso]

that is the point. I believe that is a Carl Sagan quote about extraterrestrials. Just because have no real proof of their existence does not mean that they do not exist.

Re:Your sig

[DunbarTheInept]

But "nothing is not equal to nothing" is a false statement, and it is what someone is saying when they say lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
(Because evidence of lack is a null set, and so is lack of evidence - they both evaluate to "nothing", which was my point.)
There's NO SUCH THING as evidence of lack, even if it turns out to be the case that ET's don't exist. If you consistantly apply a policy that you will spend time pursuing the possibility that something exists until such a time as evidence of it's lack comes in, you will end up wasting time pursuing just about every possibility you can dream up, since the set of possible conditions that could convince you to break off the pursuit is the empty set.

Lack of evidence is the ONLY kind of evidence of lack that can you can ever hope for. If something doesn't exist, it leaves behind no evidence.

Carl Sagan's thinking on this is identical to that often used by people to justify irrational belief in a god. As Carl himself rejected belief in god, it shows he was not applying this rule consistently in his life. He got a bit sloppy in his thinking on that quote.

(Does this mean Carl should have believed in god? No, just the opposite - he shouldn't have used the same fallacy god believers use to justify his pursuit of ET's. Now, me, I *do* think the pursuit of ET's is still worthwhile, but not just for the reason that disproof is lacking (since unlike Carl I recognize that asking for disproof in order to stop the pursuit is setting the bar impossibly high). I think it's worthwhile because there *is* enough evidence to indicate that the likelyhood of it is high enough to be worth it. Simply work the probability math - the set of conditions needed is rather rare, but the number of trials is very large when you talk about the entire universe.)

It's a symbol of your commitment

[Truist]

I got engaged just under a year ago, and I spent nearly 4 months researching rings, stones, reasons, preferences, etc. I ended up buying a custom-designed platinum ring, with a large marquis-cut sapphire as the center stone, and four small marquis diamonds as side stones. I'm extremely happy with my purchase, and there are a number of reasons why:

1) It made my girlfriend/fiancee extremely happy.
2) The work I put into getting it is an expression of my seriousness about the relationship.
3) The money I spent is an expression of my seriousness about the relationship.

The ring is completely custom made - it's my design, cleaned up by the jeweller. Sapphires are my fiancee's favorite stone, so she loved it. I found out that they are the second hardest stone, and come in nearly all colors (mine was blue) (red sapphires are commonly known as rubies). Platinum is also basically the best metal, if you can afford it. It is stronger than gold, pure, has a purer silver color than white gold, doesn't chip (like gold does), doesn't snap (like gold does), and is heavier. The only disadvantage is that it needs polished a little more often, but that is no problem as it is easy and your jeweller will do it for free (if you're still around).

I will also never go back to a chain jewelry store again. I investigated nearly 10 different chain/"consumer retail" stores before deciding to go to a small custom shop - all of them were simply trying to get me to buy a high-margin catalog ring, and none of them really had the expertise they claimed to have to design rings. They all also had high prices for low-quality stones (even after "negotiation"), and at many I got wrong information.

At the small jewelry shop I talked with the owner/primary jeweller, he understood what I wanted and told me all my options. We first found the right stones - there was none of this "buy the ring and stone at the same time" stuff you get at the regular stores.

About that - in any good ring, you're paying for multiple things:
1) The stone(s)
2) The metal
3) The work required to put them together
4) The markup

The primary focus should always always be on the quality of the stone. The metal will be up to whatever spec you decide on (carat for gold and purity for platinum (95-100%)). The work should be at a reasonable price, and you should know that price. Markup is probably 50% over the store's cost, and you don't have much choice about that.

I also learned that there are three basic "levels" of ring-quality stones (and pearls, but that's a separate topic):
1) Consumer-grade/retail stones
2) High quality stones
3) Extremely high quality stones

Don't ever buy a stone in the first category - it's a waste of money. It won't ever be worth anything. The second category is good if you want a high quality ring that will impress. This is where you get into the 4C's and where you maybe begin to actually look at the quality of the cut. Stones in the third category are rare but can be found, and they will increase in value over time. These are the flawless and almost flawless stones, whose cut is perfectly done, that have excellent color in all areas, and are larger than 1 carat (smaller stones of high quality are not that rare).

I ended up buying a sapphire in the 3rd category, and the diamonds from the 2nd (they aren't large enough). The platinum is 100% platinum.

Could I sell the ring for what I bought it for? Probably not. Could I take it to a jeweller, have them take it apart, and sell the sapphire and the platinum? Yep - and maybe at a profit on the sapphire.

In the end, I spent a ton of money, and I'm extremely pleased with the purchase (as is my fiancee!). I think the thing that made the difference was that I went to a small jeweller and talked directly to the creative genius who runs things (make sure it's somebody you like). Try that, and I think you'll also be happy.

Buy Canadian Diamonds

[Kestrel1971]

You can buy perfectly legal, safe diamonds from the Canadian arctic that weren't mined by diseased workers or slave children and aren't being used to fund wars. If I remember correctly, there's a small polar bear etched (it's microscopic) into Canadian diamonds so you can be sure you know where it's from.

Crystal

[CuervoM5]

Ok. a diamond is a covelent network crystal

so is another commonly known substance:
graphite

the simple solution is start buying graphite rings for your loved ones... its alot cheaper... and if you dont have a pen on ya i imagine u could rub the ring right off on the paper :P

changeability?

[Tumbleweed]

> And they're traditionally considered bad luck for romantic purposes because of their changeability

If that had any truth to it, ANY romantic relationship with a female is doomed. *shrug*

The good thing abouth them...

[dolithe]

They are vary hard, good for cutting glass :o
One thing that does not make sence is how come
they don't loose value when there is about 5t of
them dug out of the ground every year?

Milan

We decided against it

[shaw7]

I would suggest they are *not* worth it. My wife and I discussed this in great length before getting married and we were both very comfortable not buying a diamond.

The reasons why we avoided them:
1. DeBeers created the "Diamond Engagement Ring" story. There's *no* other reason it exists. We wanted something with a more solid tie to our culture and history.
2. Its value is artificially controlled through the diamond cartels. This is less than it used to be, but none the less it still plays out in the price.
3. Their procurement has historically meant pain and suffering for may of the world's poor. Many have killed and enslaved under motivated by the greed for diamonds.

The idea that "If you really love her, you'll buy one" repulsed us both. No one could answer when we asked "why?"

As a result we decided we would do something that was meaningful for us - that tied us to our cultures and had a symbolic value that did not come from a marketing department. We bought each other beautiful gold rings - custom made with the elements we wanted.

With the money left over we traveled (Asia & Europe) to tie us closer to the world in a more productive way.

Sure, my wife has had some people give the surprise look when she shows her wedding ring, but that hasn't happened in a long time. In fact, most people admired our bravery. Since that time, we've come across tons of people without diamonds for engagement rings.

Here's to competition in the engagement business!

Wait a minute...!

[Apostata]

I was reading through the replies when I realised: what just a sec...! People are giving advice 2nd-hand from their girlfriends! Girlfriends?? That means they're in Relationships! This can't be Slashdot!!

Off topic, entire submission needs modded down

[fire-eyes]

What the hell is this? A little desperate for stories today are we?

-1, off topic.

Obligatory Simp^H^H^H^H Family Guy clip...

[phillymjs]

"Diamonds. She'll Pretty Much Have To."

~Philly

in defense of goons

[casualgeorge]

some woman-think here, for the record: a friend at work just got married, and gosh her diamond is purty. honestly, sometimes i catch myself staring at it. but i'm not her, and someone please shoot me if i ever become so. she prances around like a poodle fresh from the salon now, as if she has suddenly become valuable as a person. don't buy into it. if two people are equally saturated with the propaganda, they should get along just fine. but if she is set on a ring and you are ethically against it (cheap is entirely another story), i'd say you two have bigger issues to deal with than just a diamond. i have as many unnecessary purses as the next girl, but i personally would run the other direction from a guy who presented me with a rock, because i want a partner, not a sheep. why on earth would i want the same ubiquitous, essentially unvaluable thing every other woman has? howabout a secret gift (and an exchange, no less!), just between the two of you? who is she getting married for anyway, her friends?

Re:in defense of goons

[isayhello]

Are you sure you're not a man in disguise? If so, where have you been all my life? ...ahem... and I also would like to know what you are doing this weekend ...mumble mumble grd drn other guy got there first...

Re:in defense of goons

[Catbeller]

who is she getting married for anyway, her friends?

Sadly, yes, more often then not. I don't know how many times I've watched The Council of Girlfriends and Guyfriends produce committee reports to dump a boyfriend. Even more sad is how many times those vetoes are heeded.

And yes, I've seen it work in reverse as well.

Re:in defense of goons

[Nhoderis]

who cares what the diamond ring is worth?? Shouldnt we put more thought into what it represents and symbolises? That's what it is in the ceremony isnt it?? A sign of everlasting unbreaking love. A guy is not a Sheep just because he bought the typical diamond ring for his beloved. Love still went into the purchase, selection, and giving.

Re:in defense of goons

[supertaster]

Why have we thus far only been discussing the female's desire for a ring and looking at the guy's side simply from a standpoint of whether or not it's worth putting up with (shelling out for?)? Indeed, I'm (still) looking for someone who is a partner, who I respect and a long list of other traits which affirm that this is a mutual endeavor. BUT... I'm also a gooey romantic. I will want to give her a ring. I will want to have a nervous moment on one knee. I will, *sigh*, probably cry at my own wedding. Is the gift of a ring really only for the girl in most people's minds?
No, I haven't addressed the ethics here, though I feel the "previously historied" rings fit that bill rather nicely.

Re:in defense of goons

[technomom]

I had similar thoughts on this issue. If you can have a deeper discussion about this with a bunch of Slashdotters than your own girlfriend, you have some pretty big issues. Please, talk this over with her.

JoAnn

Re:in defense of goons

[Lozzer]

Yeah, but that's the at least the second girl he has asked out in this story alone, so he is probably out of luck.

Two Better Words

[bigfatlamer]

Family heirloom. Even before my wife and I got engaged, she told me she wanted a ring that had belonged to her great-grandfather's first wife who died in a pneumonia epidemic in 1908 or something. It's an absolutely beautifully detailed platinum ring with lots of filligree, etching and cutouts and a 1+ ct diamond. Appraisers have put in in the USD 6-8K range but I've also had jewelers tell us they couldn't make it themselves for less than $10K.

Smoke one if you've got one. If not, estate sales are a good way to go.

Howto?

[Ixe]

Yeah, why don't some of the women write HOWTOs for us and startup the WDP :)

Bluenile is your friend

[neile]

I got married last year and had to get an engagement ring. My wife wanted a simple ring with a simple diamond. I don't have any answers to the ethical questions you raise, but I can address the "I know I'm going to get screwed by the jeweler". You don't have to be.

I got my diamond from Blue Nile, as have two other people I know at work. The diamond was very reasonably priced, and of exceptional quality. I had a custom setting made in white gold (~$500) at a local jeweler. When I took the diamond to have it set in the ring they were *stunned* at the price I got for the diamond given its quality. Comparable diamonds were priced easily $1000 over what I paid for it at Blue Nile.

And you know what? My wife loved it. Absolutely loved it. It was exactly what she wanted.

(FWIW I checked bluenile.com and didn't see anything about whether they have ethical diamonds. It might be worth calling them to find out.)

News for Nerds... WTF is this?

[fulldecent]

C'mon now - this has nothing nerdly.

You can't get away from it..

[donutello]

I went through the exact same conundrum about 6 months ago. I hate the idea of spending that much money on something so meaningless as a diamond as much as my fellow geek and share a similar distaste for the idea that De Beers has successfully forced a large part of the worlds population to act like mindless sheep based on their marketing tactics.

However, the bottomline was that there was no getting away from it. In general, girls want to receive diamond rings from their fiance-suitors for the following reasons:
1. They can use the diamond to show off to other girls. Women like to brag about how much their fiances love them and diamonds are somehow a sign of that. The prettier and bigger the diamond, the more they have to brag about.
2. They see it as a sign of how much you are interested in them. How much money would you be willing to spend on them is how they guage that and unfortunately the diamond is one of the measures they use for that.
3. Diamonds are pretty and they like them for that reason.
4. It's "tradition". Their dreams of prince charming have always included a nice diamond and if you hope to be that prince, you better play the part with the diamond.

I caved and split for the cash.

Let me warn you, however. The diamond is not the end of it. It's only the beginning. I figured I'd spend a load of cash on the diamond and that would be the end of that. Almost from the minute you get engaged, starts the big wedding planning ritual. Thanks to mass-brainwashing by media, their mothers and their friends, women seem to believe that it is very important to have a big, pretty wedding that everyone and their aunt is invited to.

Somehow, they place it at a higher priority than, say getting the down payment on a house. And then there are the magazines. There is a whole industry around wedding magazines, wedding stores and wedding supplies. It's a finely honed marketing machine which has one objective: Get as much money out of you by

Re:You can't get away from it..

[donutello]

Sorry, that last sentence got cut off. It should have read:

Get as much money out of you by convincing you that the wedding is the most important day of your life (that part is usually true) and that that somehow implies that it is extremely important that you have a fabulous, beautiful ceremony with a great dress and perfect flowers and all that crap which has no bearing on how good or bad your relationship will be.

backfire

[Tablizer]

Probable response:

"Child warriors? Smugglers? Musky dark dusty mines? Sounds sooooo exotic and romantic, darling. Can't wait to get one!"

Alexandrite

[StormyWeather]

It's my favorite stone. In a high quality it is more expensive than a diamond, It's harder to see flaws since it's a color stone, and as far as I know it's still the only naturally occuring color changing stone in the world. The majority change colors from somewhere in the light blue to dark purple depending on the light. When your fiancee goes showing it off she can say that you love her more than a diamond.

Yea yea I used to be a jeweler, now I'm a Linux nerd, don't ask.

Re:Trust me, diamonds are worth it

[stipe42]

I don't get it.

How about a deposit on a house?

[thogard]

If you take the two to 8 grand that some of my friends paid for rings and put it towards their houses instead the would have been much better off in the long run. How much? something like $50,000 or so at the end of the home loan.

The price of love.

[s4m7]

Ok, I feel pretty strongly about this one.

Ultimately, I REFUSE to buy a diamond for any reason ever. Simply put, you can never be 100% sure that your diamond came from a reputable source, or if it was harvested by a young african child hundreds of feet underground, whose arms were cut off that day because he didn't fetch enough. THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

So I guess the fact that my girlfriend's friends will tease her should come before that, right? I probably don't love her enough if I think that the well being of impoverished children is more important than buying her a rock her friends will envy.

I'd sooner buy a $2000 ruby than a $100 diamond, so it obviously isn't that I'm cheap. But I guess I'm lucky, because I have the luxury of having a conscientious enlightened girlfriend who understands my point of view, rather than a shallow, petty woman who would rather just have a pretty rock.

Ultimately it's up to you, and you're the one who has to live with your decision. Since you've already presented all the evidence, if it's still even a question, she probably will only care about the rock.

The decision...

[Jynxeh]

... should be down to you and her, no one else!

You've explained your thoughts well, get her true, ideas, really talk about it. None of us know her, how can we answer? If it truly means a lot to her, she should tell you. Discuss some alteratives, it may be that she finds there are non-diamond rings she'd prefer anyway. I know plenty of girls who don't like diamonds. And she shouldn't chose somethign just because of what society says is correct, she should be able to get a ring she'll really love, herself. If that means a diamond, then ok!

I liked the idea brought up of getting a Canadian diamond- I'm into fair trade and such, and obviously wouldn't want to help finance terrorism or other violence, so if she DOES want a diamond, perhaps that's the way to go. An antique ring or diamond is also a good idea, though despite what was said elsewhere, they can be extremely expensive. My sister has a platinum ring, from the 1920s, with a one carat diamond, and then something like 50 small diamonds in the setting. Not only was it incredibly expensive, but probably more expensive than a new, similar ring would have been.

Precious/Interesting metals!

[Dixie_Flatline]

Platinum rings. White gold. Other gemstones. Nothing beats rubies or emeralds in my book.

A friend of mine recently got married, and he and his wife have TITANIUM wedding rings. They're the lightest, shiniest, most beautiful rings I've ever seen. I was instantly jealous, and my GF agreed that if we ever got married (since we believe that marriage as an institution is only worthwhile for the legal benefits, really [oh, and the presents :D]) that would be the way to go.

Oh, and being a mountain biker, I thought, "Titanium makes pretty bikes, AND pretty rings. I wonder if I can get a Carbon Fibre Full Suspension ring. THEN I'd be hardcore. :D"

Re:Precious/Interesting metals!

[dipipanone]

I wonder if I can get a Carbon Fibre Full Suspension ring. THEN I'd be hardcore

No, then you'd just be a geek. A Carbon Fibre Full Suspension cock ring, on the other hand, might just do it.

Relationships.

[Seclusion]

Trolling, flamebait and perhaps offtopic but here goes. It still amazes me how so many sd'ers can be on the bleeding edge of tech but still stuck on tradition when it comes to relationships.

I can only assume hardDiamond has serious issues with diamonds or why bother us? In which case, how can your fiancé respect you if you cave in on your convictions?

My suggestion is if a diamond matters that much to her, she can spend 2 months of her earnings toward what ever she likes. If that doesn't put things into perspective to her, I'm not sure what will.

Diamonds aren't this girl's best friend

[MsGeek]

How interesting that this subject comes up just a few days shy of my 15th wedding anniversary.

When Richie and I got engaged, it was back in the day when South Africa was ruled by the Apartheid regime and Nelson Mandela had been doing time for longer than I had been alive. I told him "no diamonds." We went to a local lapidary shop where they had many different options for stones and picked out a sterling silver setting for it. I chose a diamond-cut quartz crystal. It was beautiful, the ring didn't cost much at all, and after someone assembled it Richie proposed to me in front of everyone in the store. Got on one knee and everything. Priceless. Everyone applauded.

However, that ring was short lived. I don't remember exactly how I did it, but the ring's setting got bent and I lost the stone. It lasted only a few months.

Next, sometime around Christmas that year, there were several small jewelry carts that set up in the local mall. One had a ring with a great-looking amethyst point mounted on it. Not too expensive, looked cool. We grabbed it. The ring lasted for about a year before the amethyst point worked its way loose. I Krazy-glued it in and it stayed in for a few weeks more before I lost it for good.

Richie was upset, I was bummed. Two rings given, two down. I decided the next replacement for the engagement ring would not have a stone, tradition be damned.

That next summer I found a sterling silver Claddagh ring. Traditional Irish love token. Symbol from pre-Christian times. Very appropriate. Very cool. I've had it ever since.

Anyway, even with Apartheid over, I wouldn't touch diamonds if they were...well, diamonds. For one thing, I'm not crazy about them aesthetically. I'd rather have a blue topaz or a sapphire or a ruby or emerald or even better, a fire opal. For another thing, unless you can make darn sure where you are getting them from, you could get them from terrorists or Russian mafiosos or any number of other unsavory folks.

And most importantly...I would rather spend my money on geeky stuff. Save that money and get something I really want...like a DVD-RW or a Radeon AIW 8500 video card.

If your intended is a geek grrl, get her something she'll really want. If she isn't...well...maybe that diamond is kinda mandatory. Check up on the provenance of that rock...there are Canadian stones from the Yukon Territory strike that have a polar bear etched next to the laser-inscribed ID. There's nothing morally reprehensible about the Canadians, last time I checked.

Re:Diamonds aren't this girl's best friend

[BluedemonX]

We've conversed before - good to see you around. Personally, I purchased a 3/4 ct high quality engagement ring, and a diamond studded wedding band (all very high quality diamonds in terms of cut, clarity, color), and love it to this day. I don't know much about apartheid, but she appreciated the gestures, she loves the rings, and quite frankly, I get to live vicariously through her (men don't get to wear diamonds), and I love em.

RE: There's nothing morally reprehensible about the Canadians, last time I checked.

Apart from the fact that the state is crooked, confiscatory and socialist? Hm, well, ask the UN. It has a problem with the Quebecois Nazi language laws, and Canada's treatment of Native peoples. In fact, Mulroney (80s era Prime Minister) had egg on his chin when he lambasted the South Africans for apartheid, and couldn't answer when SA came back with sarcastic comments about conditions in Native reservations.

Re:Diamonds aren't this girl's best friend

[genesplicer]

"Hm, well, ask the UN" - yes, ask the UN who continually rate Canada as one of the best countries in the world in which to live ...
Yes, we have a reprehensible history on treatment of our Native Peoples, but I don't see the US, or any other "new world" democracies doing much better ... At least we're trying, as in the creation of Nunavut Territory ...
Canada is not, by definition, a socialist state - it is one of the world's oldest parliamentary democracies ... Our society and governance do have a slight socialist leaning ... Now, if that means being a just society of people that actually care for the well-being of each other, who make an effort to respect one anothers' unique ethnic heritage, and who have access to universal health care, well then, sign me up ...
And by the way, most Canadians are as embarassed about the Mulroney years as the Americans are about the Nixon years ...

Re:Diamonds aren't this girl's best friend

[SurfTheWorld]

The ring lasted for about a year before the amethyst point worked its way loose. I Krazy-glued it in and it stayed in for a few weeks more before I lost it for good.

You're so ghetto...

Re:Diamonds aren't this girl's best friend

[BluedemonX]

RE: "Hm, well, ask the UN" - yes, ask the UN who continually rate Canada as one of the best countries in the world in which to live ...

In terms of "human development". Low job prospects, crippling taxes - no free speech, no right to self-defence, and not even the right to own property (thanks Trudeau) - meaning the government can decide it wants the shirt off your back and it doesn't have to compensate you for it.
If that's the UN's definition of "great place to live" I'm on the other side.

RE: Canada is not, by definition, a socialist state - it is one of the world's oldest parliamentary democracies ...

90% of the vote belonging to a socialist voting block around Toronto and an ethnic minority. Oh yeah, great democracy. Why do you fight PR so hard? And by the way, who votes for the Prime Minister? I see, noone. But he controls everything and everyone and answers to noone.

RE: Our society and governance do have a slight socialist leaning ... Now, if that means being a just society of people that actually care for the well-being of each other, who make an effort to respect one anothers' unique ethnic heritage, and who have access to universal health care, well then, sign me up ...

What about if it just means a self-serving dictatorship, lining its own pockets (cough GROUPE ACTION cough cough Shawinigate cough) at others' expense in the name of all this liberty crap?

Re:Diamonds aren't this girl's best friend

[BluedemonX]

RE: Stop imposing your freaking morality on the rest of the world. It's really annoying, and just because another country or culture's system isn't in line with American thinking does not mean that it's somehow less evolved, or brutal, or wrong. We don't need Americans to run in and "save us from ourselves".

You assume I am American. HA HA HA. Never ASSUME anything cause it makes an ASS of YOU and ME. And can I have that "we don't need Americans" thing in writing? If you ever get invaded or your sovereignty in the Arctic is threatened, you can have your entirety of your armed forces attack the threat, but two bicycles and a canoe won't hack it.

Mokume Gane!

[Leareth]

My wife and I are both metal smiths and I made her engagement ring, and we (mostly me) made our wedding rings. We chose Mokume Gane (think damascus steel done in precious metal, or samurai sword construction)

There are master's of the art Steve Midgett http://www.mokume.com and James Binnion http://www.mokumegane.com

Additionally, there are dozens of less famous artisits that provide this service.

Re:Material Gift != love

[AdrianErickson]

"If she wouldn't marry you with the ring pull from a coke can, then you should question if she is right for you." How about this: "If he's not serious enough about your future and his ability to provide for you by saving up two months salary, then you should question if he is right for you." I'm not saying all that money should go into a ring...Hell no, in fact...but it should be *there* as an expression of committment, and to ensure a fiscally abundant future. BTW, I forgot to mention here that my engagement ring was a dinky $150 platinum band that I love more than life itself, because every time I look at it, I think about the moment he proposed. (not how much he spent)

engagement rings and wedding bands?

[gakeller]

Oops! I am missing some points...
So there are engagement rings and wedding bands? I miss translated the term, I think.

Another difference: most people here use just the same ring: when it is on the right ring, is a engagement ring, and when it is on the left hand, is a wedding ring...
But there are rings for silver/golden wedding. These are becaming rare :-)

Options...

[cfulmer]

1) Pawn shop. You would be amazed at how many Diamonds are there. See the pawn shop FAQs for information on how to shop there.

2) Non-mall reputable dealer. There are a few of these around usually in some hole-in-the-wall shop. I bought my wife's diamond from one 6 years ago -- they had a 1-year money back warranty that they honored for a friend of mine without a problem, and were much less expensive than mall stores.

Whatever you do, buy a certified stone -- it's the only way to get an objective measure of the 4 C's which you can use to compare prices among jewelers.

Whatever you do, stay away fromt he stores in the mall. Their overhead is higher, due to rent and glitz, their return policies generally stink, and they often employ people who don't know what they're talking about.

You'll Rue the Day...

[1qaz2wsx]

As soon as your girl friends friends hear that she is getting married, the marketing will explode. Even Mother Teresa would have crumbled under the onslaught.... She is going to hear "It is your **special day** that comes only once...". Even if this was her idea (which it wasn't), mere mortals will not resist the crushing peer pressure. How many times is she going to hear "Oh, lets see the ring! Oh, it isn't a diamond - cheap bastard". You don't believe me, send her with her friends to a bridal fair.... My suggestion is to give her the credit card, whatever she spends is worth not having to be there.....

Ask Her

[wooferhound]

I got Married 3 months ago. I talked very closely with my future wife about every aspect of our wedding including the ring. I was lucky that she wanted the same thing as me, Gold without the diamond...

Alternatives

[CormacJ]

My wife didn't want a diamond. She didn't feel comfortable wearing something that expensive. I got her a three piece claddagh with a nice green stone. The first part has the clasping hands, which stands for us being together. The second part was the heart, which held the stone setting which stands for the engagement, and the last part is a plain gold band that we used for the wedding ring.

She loves irish stuff, and that meant more to her than any diamond.

My mom gave me mine.

[RatBastard]

I got the diamond ofr my wife's ring from my mom. My wife (fiance, at the time) knew it and didn't mind. She's now of the mindset that she does not ever want another diamond due to the issues brought up and that's fine with me.

Diamonds are as bad as drugs

[zebtron]

First, assuming you buy a diamond that isn't a "conflict diamond" (try Canadian diamonds) then most of the diamonds produced on the planet are controlled by DeBeers... the international diamond cartel. Diamonds would not be pricey if not for the muscle (most of the diamond ads you see are DeBeers funded) and their tight control of the world supply... the Russian's had the potential to change the market after the USSR collapse, but DeBeers applied pressure and it became a non-event.

Diamonds and drug trafficing are run by similar people, people who just want to make money, however in the case of drugs the price is do to government meddling, and not corporate greed.

Diamonds are ridiculous... the consumerism around them has NOTHING to do with love or commitment.

Find a local artisan to create a ring in silver, a custom and unique item... donate some money to charity in the name of your partner.

As for the generalizations that not buying a diamond would indicate less love, DeBeers has succeeded in brainwashing many of you.

I hope your partner is not so naive, materialistic, or shallow that such a thing should matter.

Two solutions

[dipipanone]

Firstly, you could buy her an antique ring at a trade jewelry auction. That way, you aren't paying more than the real market price and it will have a resale value -- especially if you buy a piece by one of the name houses like Tiffany or Cartier.

Alternatively, if you wanted to be more romantic, you could by the stone wholesale (places like Amsterdam, London, Antwerp, New York all have wholesale gem dealers) and commission a craft jeweller to make a ring for you. That way, you're investing in the arts and not just buying a piece of crap from some box shifter.

My wife's engagement ring was/is a ruby

[JoeBuck]

We've been happily married for 12.5 years, so it worked out fine. She picked out the ring. Result: a nice ring for a couple of hundred instead of a few thousand. I would have been willing to spring for a diamond if it was really important to her, but it wasn't.

It worked out this way because we were already living together, were on grad student "salaries" and any money spent would be, in effect, our money not my money.

Resale?

[v8interceptor]

Marriage is meant to be for ever, why would you want to resell them?? On another note, perhaps a Honeymoon to Sierra Leone is a good way to teach your wife more about the Diamond trade...

Try Blue Nile online...

[Dr. Zowie]

I did, and we got a fabulous diamond. We went for a fluorescent stone; the blue fluorescence cancels out some color so we could go with a slightly yellower stone -- and anyway, it's cool.

You can search online through many, many more diamonds than you would ever find in a jeweller, and the price is about 20% less for a comparable stone.

It was very surreal, clicking "Add to basket" for something that cost more than my first car...

Resource on how to find American Diamonds

[Frightened_Turtle]

Kevin Krajick wrote a book on finding diamonds in America. Information on this book can be found at this link about his book.

Because DeBeers is a monopoly, they are forbidden to do business in the United States due to the anti-trust laws. Directly, that is. They can crush any competition outside the U.S. by under cutting any competitor in prices. As a majority of the diamonds come from outside the U.S., we still get them from DeBeers, as a result.

Gem quality diamonds are still found in the U.S., one such source is in Arkansas, where you can actually go dig for your own diamonds in places. One of the largest yellow diamonds ever found was found in Arkansas.

Search for mineralogical societies. There are rock hounds everywhere who would love to point you in the right direction to find American found diamonds.

For example, Perhams of West Paris, Maine sells jewelry that was created from raw materials that were found in the state of Maine. Friends of mine got their engagement ring there: a dark blue sapphire ring. The sapphire was found in the legendary (for rock hounds) Newry mines, and the gold for the ring was panned out of the Swift River in Bryson.

Think about this angle: What does she want? A sterile, cardon-copy store bought gem? Or one that her man dug out of the ground with his own bare hands?

Man-Whoring [Was: Re:apparently, an...]

[fire-eyes]

One Dozen Roses: us$35.

One Diamond Ring: us$949.99.

Knowing You're A Pussy Whipped Man-Whore: Priceless.

Re:Man-Whoring [Was: Re:apparently, an...]

[SoSueMe]

One couple in love = Priceless

One wedding/engagement ring (3 rings) set $800.00 CDN$

SHE picked it out = BONUS!!

Re:Man-Whoring [Was: Re:apparently, an...]

[d_jab]

One Diamond Ring: us$949.99.

$949.99??? cheap ass bastard...

personally, i don't understand why fiance loves her diamonds so much...but she doesn't understand why I love computers so much. It merely differences in priority.

which leads to the following point: do really think ALL your system's components were built under humanistic conditions???

Guess what folks.. Africa is not America. They do not have the same standards as Americans do. They do not follow the same rules.
Deal with it and get on with life. There is a lot more to worry about than the kid who lost his hands because he tried to steal diamonds from DeBeers to sell on the black market
(oh... thats right... the human rights activists forgot to tell that part of the story... silly me... )

figures

[God! Awful]

Not to trivialize this or anything (I'm against buying diamonds too), but this makes me laugh. It seems like whenever Slashdotters don't want to pay for something (e.g. CDs), they find some kind of ethical reason why they shouldn't.

-a

You have to get what she wants

[nvrrobx]

When I proposed to my significant other, I had a white gold and diamond ring in mind, but I took my other half with me to the jeweler, and I will be forever happy that I did - he didn't want a diamond, he wanted a simple gold band.

So, this just goes to show, do what (s)he wants, not what you want.. Maybe you should talk to her about it first? It may spoil your surprise, but atleast she can look down at her finger for the rest of her life and know she got exactly what she wanted.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Com2Kid]

Shop for cut roses next Feb 13, and see if you feel the same way. It's enough to make a bachelor like me want to build a hothouse in his back yard, just to have a reserve of flowers ready on demand.


Rose bushs are fun, had to cut the ones in the yard down though, got diseased. :(

Taking it back, with interest.

[matoushek]

I'm recently engaged, and had a hard time figuring out the right amount to spend on the ring and where to get it from. I ended up choosing Jared's (Texas), because they claim that for the life of the diamond you can trade it in with 5% interest on the original value. Of course I cannot find my documentation on this, so I can't state any proof of this, but it's out there. Take a look.

A diamond ring?

[Guppy06]

If she really loved you she'd be happier with a FDDI ring...

I used my mom's diamond.

[AugstWest]

My parents divorced almost 20 years ago (after 20 years of marriage), and my mother had kept her engagement ring in a box for those 20 years. When I told her I was getting engaged, she gave it to me and my fiance and I went and had it reset in a band that she liked.

Later we picked another stone and had my mom's band redone with it, everybody won in the end.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[AxelBoldt]

Flowers == kick ass. Period. They look lovely, they have a great texture to them, and they are a wonderful symbol of life itself.

Except they're dead.

exactly

[UberQwerty]

I completely agree. Who wants to date a girl to whom whether or not you're willing to waste a significant chunk of your net worth to prove it is a deal-breaker? Am I the only one who has noticed that the emperor has no clothes on?

So... Ms. casualgeorge... what are you doing this weekend? ;)

Not only get her one...

[smalloy]

...but get her one that looks good enough to make all her friends jealous. Really. Yes, it's an artificially inflated market. Yes it's basically a cartel. Yes there are so-called "blood diamonds" out there. No, working in a diamond mine might not be a great way to spend your day. But all of these arguments fall flat when compared to "ooh, look! Sparkly!" ESPECIALLY when this phrase is uttered by her best friend/mother/sister. Don't let her down; bite the bullet and spend the money IN SPITE of the fact that you know you shouldn't on many levels. Consider it practice for being married. Now, make sure you get an education in diamonds beyond just the 4Cs. www.niceice.com is by far the best place for detailed technical information on diamonds on the web that I found. They speak geek. They also happen to be really nice folks. I bought my wife's ring there. They're in Oregon, so no sales tax. email me if you have more questions. smalloy "a-t--s-i-g-n" jump.net

Re:He snuck in

[linzeal]

So the geek gut is like a hemen?

The Kimberly Process

[idontneedanickname]

"The Kimberly Process, which will attempt to track diamonds to their origin. This is to begin in November."

There was a cover story on National Geographic not so long ago about this. It was about one guy who went all around the world to look at how this buisness works. It was pretty interesting. But fact is, they're not gonna be able to track these diamonds any time soon. They're shipped around and resold and just change hands so many times before they end up in a jewler's shop that you would need to pretty much put a GPS tracking device on each one as they come out of the mine to really be able to track this stuff.

Re:The Kimberly Process

[perfects]

The Kimberly process was not originally designed to "combat terrorism".

In the last few years several companies have been able to create gem-sized, near-gem-quality diamonds in the laboratory. De Beers, which controls the great majority of the world's diamond inventory, is terrified that the value of diamonds will plummet when the technology progresses to the point where large, perfect diamonds can be produced very cheaply. And it's coming soon.

It is becoming more and more difficult to tell an artificial diamond from a natural one, even with sophisticated equipment. De Beers wants to be able to track diamonds to prove that they are "natural". They believe -- and are actively promoting the viewpoint -- that natural diamonds are somehow more virtuous than artificial ones.

Interestingly, one of the ways that can be used to identify a lab-grown diamond is its lack of imperfections, yet the most desirable (read "expensive") natural diamonds are the ones with the fewest flaws.

The "combat terrorism" thing is clever, but it's a PR move to cover their real motives.

More to the point of the original topic... Guys, ask your women: "Honey, would you prefer a natural diamond or an equal-sized, perfect artificial diamond at 1% of the cost?"

Re:It's not about you... it's about her...no reall

[Gaijin42]

Did you read anything in the articles or comments? They do NOT appreciate. they lose LOTS of value, in real and inflated dollars.

Lots of options

[Ash113]

I have a personal dislike for gold (I don't like soft yellow metals, nothing moral or anything against the metal) and I gave up diamands after having seen the Nova special many years back. When the time came for me to get attached in that way, I was able to talk it over with my SO and I ended up just getting her a custom platinum and white sapphire ring. The stone looks like diamond, so it fools people just looking at it who might otherwise get all animated about it not being 'real'. The weight of the platinum takes people by surprise and gives a very solid feel to the ring, much more than 14k would. We added in a neat latin inscription and some scrollwork around the stone and came up with a ring that was far nicer than most anything you find in the stores. Take the time to talk to her about why, and find a good jewler, preferably wholesale if you can, and you can get any kind of stone you like in something that is what you want for about 1/3rd the price of the retail stores pushing the diamonds. Disclaimer: I do not work for any company involved in this trade, I just like the old union jewlery houses over the mall stores. Where I got the ring made.

the most important thing

[WillyBarrett]

is that you don't give her the impression that you're just being a cheapskate. (You aren't, are you?) So take that that bogus 2-3 months of salary figure and spend *at least* that much on something else for her. A different kind of ring or other jewelry, perhaps. A trip to Europe if that's something she's always wanted to do. A couple of friends, who didn't have much money anyway, gave each other bicycles. If she's very practical, put it into a downpayment on a house.

An alternative that is tangible and that she can keep "forever" has obvious sentimental advantages over a house you'll sell later, etc. After all, it's really about symbolism, not logic. Putting $5k into a kick-ass laptop (for her! really!) may strike you as eminently more sensible than putting the same amount into a ring that has no usefulness and no resale value ... but it's not about "making sense'. If at all possible, try to pick something that she can cherish for decades. Women like that sort of thing.

And if she says, "I understand what you're saying, but ... I really just want a ring", or if you know her well enough (and hopefully you do) to pick up on the fact that she's really thinking that even if she doesn't come right out and say it ... in other words, if you sense the least little bit of reluctance to go with some ring-alternative ... just buy the damn ring. Sometimes things that are merely symbolic, and make no *logical* sense, are still the right thing to do.

I hear that...

[Herkum01]

Cubis Zerconium looks just like a diamond and she will never know the difference. I swear its true! And it is only $49.95!

The home shopping network wouldn't lie would it?

diamond substitutes.

[tacocat]

What's a good substitute for diamonds?


Give her a joystick! :)

Seriously, if you are really that concerned about PRACTICAL versus TRADITION then why are you getting married?

• It's more expensive
• It's harder than being single
• You lose career flexibility & mobility
• You can't spend Sunday in your boxers
• You'll have to empty the trash full of tampons every month

So, the answer is this. There is no RATIONAL explaination for getting married and there is no RATIONAL explaination behind getting diamonds.

What you are missing here is that marriage is an emotional bond between two people first. Emotions, unfortunately, don't jive well with Rationality. Ask Science Officer Spock, he knows.

So don't think to hard about it. Get the diamond and get on with it. Save your financial fortitude for other matters that are less emotional

I Think This Pretty Much Says It......

[sybarite]

I Think This Pretty Much Says It....

ethics and tradition

[glwtta]

are all nice and good, but unless you are some sort of retard, you will buy her the biggest fucking rock you can afford and be done with it. face it dude, otherwise, it's couch sleeping time. for a looong time.

i'm sure this is "-ten billion, redundant" but it really can't be emphasized enough

TRANSLATION

[BluedemonX]

I'd rather spend my money on a new AMD system for myself, and lots of Linux books. So I'll wrap up my unwillingness to spend money in a pile of self-righteous condemnation.

Run, sister. Not only do you have a cheap bastard as a fiance, but one who intends on making you feel guilty at the slightest provocation when money gets involved.

And before the response flood comes in, I'll bet dollars to donuts that if diamonds cost pennies per carat, he wouldn't care who gets the money. If that's the problem, buy Canadian diamonds, and shell out the cash.

Re:TRANSLATION

[oojah]

I'll bet dollars to donuts that if diamonds cost pennies per carat, he wouldn't care who gets the money.

Very true, but then I'll bet it would be less of an ethical issue if buying a diamond involved just 0.01c/Carat going as blood money. As things stand, I'm sure that the amount of money per carat used as blood money is substantially higher than that, but I have no figures.

Cheers,

Roger

live girl here, for the record

[casualgeorge]

a friend at work just got married, and gosh her diamond is purty. honestly, sometimes i catch myself staring at it. but i'm not her, and someone please shoot me if i ever become so. she prances around like a poodle fresh from the salon now, as if she has suddenly become valuable as a person. don't buy into it. if two people are equally saturated with the propaganda, they should get along just fine. but if she is set on a ring and you are ethically against it (cheap is entirely another story), i'd say you two have bigger issues to deal with than just a diamond. i have as many unnecessary purses as the next girl, but i personally would run the other direction from a guy who presented me with a rock, because i want a partner, not a sheep. why on earth would i want the same ubiquitous, essentially unvaluable thing every other woman has? howabout a secret gift (and an exchange, no less!), just between the two of you? who is she getting married for anyway, her friends?

Re:live girl here, for the record

[einhverfr]

I actually think that is a very insightful post. I think that the foundations of marriage need to be mutual understanding of desired, ethics, and dreams. Also respect of these things in the other.

The other issue I see is that a diamond is rather bland-- there are soooo many more imaginative ways to make a really beautiful ring (not just a geek-- used to make some jewelry too ;))

Re:live girl here, for the record

[WEFUNK]

...why on earth would i want the same ubiquitous, essentially unvaluable thing every other woman has?

I'm sure that my girlfriend (and a lot of other women) would agree with you ... that's probably why she wants a ubiquitous, essentially unvaluable thing TWICE the size of what every other woman has!

Actually, I feel bad making fun because I agree with your main point (...and I got nailed for flamebait on the last stupid joke I tried to make). Yes the diamond is really for her, but if you really feel strongly about it you shouldn't have to breach your ethics to buy it. She will either respect you for that or maybe she's not the right woman for you. Now if you're only vaguely concerned about the ethics and you think that maybe you're doing her a favour make sure you get her opinion first or just buy the damn ring. And if you know her well enough to marry her you probably know whether she wants one and how she'll react if she doesn't get it.

Re:live girl here, for the record

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, another actual female checking in here... a divorced one to be precise. My ex (when he was my fiance obviously) got me a half carat rock. I had a mixed reaction-- yes, I was flattered he loved me SO MUCH, but I knew he couldn't afford it and I would rather have saved for a trip or a house downpayment or something. If he had even brought it up ahead of time, I could at least have sent him to a close family friend in the jewelry business to get a better deal... I would rather have traded the surprise for something that I didn't have such mixed feelings over. In retrospect I realize it was a warning sign of his future spending habits, but with all the hearts floating in the air over my head then I didn't notice.
In sum-- take the suggestions you read, and go talk directly to your gf again. Get started on your future marriage with all that crap the counselors talk about, like communicating your priorities and compromising so both of you feel good about the engagement doodad or trip or whatever it turns out to be. Good luck.

Re:live girl here, for the record

[anshil]

Right here girl, so you're different than others and thats very good that way. As others above have mentioned who understand at last a little about girls (yes some nerds of this kind do exist). It soly depends on what the girl wants, thats what you learn as male wanting to be a good lover. On first place are _her_ desires, you're come at second, or maybe third after probable desires or forth after her unspoken desires or .... I enjoying beeing with girl whoms desires I like and I feel good with them, and yes those wanting expensive rings are not mine (those were number criteria is beeing expensive, thats something completly different than beein beautiful)

Re:live girl here, for the record

[chialea]

Yet another Real Live Woman(TM) here.

I expect a diamond engament ring, but that's only because I already HAVE one, and it's very special to me -- it's four generations old, beautiful, and practical (I wear it every day, and it doesn't get caught on my pockets or instrument, which other rings I've had have). Switching it from my right to my left hand won't be stressful for anyone, and it won't enrich DeBeers.

As I don't have a fiancee (or a boyfriend, for that matter) I don't know what to do about the wedding ring. It's a decision we have to make together, obviously, since that's money that could be put towards a house or saved. Personally, I'm leaning towards having the matching wedding ring (which will be my sister's when she turns 21) reproduced, and writing down what we know about the rings for when they're passed down again.

Moral: it's the sentiment that counts. Family heirlooms make wonderful engagement rings, if you have that option, and if you don't, you may well want to get something timeless and PRACTICAL to pass down to your children or grandchildren. Obviously material inheritance is no where near as important as the way in which you raise your children, and the way in which you help them grow, but it is a special thing to pass a token of your family's love and connection through the generations.

Lea

Re:live girl here, for the record

[Jeppe Salvesen]

I would even argue that starting the really long haul with fiscal irresponsibility is a very poor tradition indeed. The guy is expected to two or three months worth of paycheck to prove his love. Some people can afford that - but very few. I bet being broke isn't the best way to start a marriage.

re: "break the mould, don't get stuck in it"

[UberQwerty]

...but be very careful.

"History is always too slow, but it is never kind to those who would hurry it up." -The Power of One

Where can I get one?

[Latent Heat]

My dad had a wedding band made of paladium, which at the time was a cheap substitute for a gold band, but now I wish he could find the thing and pass it down, given the notoriety of paladium on account of everything from Fleischman and Pons to catalytic converters.

For much the same reason I would like to get my hands on one of those fluorescing, seed-crystal-in-the-middle Russian synthetic diamonds, and the earlier production and more obvious the flaws the better. Gee, it would be like having one of Thomas Edisons first phonograph records.

Anyone know if there is a market or a way to buy one?

Re:Where can I get one?

[jefflinwood]

Palladium Ring on eBay

Want a palladium ring? Here is a really neat looking palladium ring. Only $30.95 on ebay. It's vintage from WW2.

Clean Diamonds

[coene]

This reminds me of a show I was watching on The Science Channel some time back. There is a team that mines for Diamonds in northern Canada (ice), and sells them as "Clean" diamonds. No child labor or any of the like -- they are real, pure diamonds, and you can sleep comfortably knowing where they came from.

I'm not sure where to find more information, but I'm sure that if you peek around a little bit, you'll find what I am talking about.

If I ever get engaged, this will be my solution. Resale value is the lesser issue IMO.

Optical grade charcoal

[Loudog]

Yes, Diamonds will burn in a fire. So no, they aren't forever.

The best thing to do is ask her what she wants. Then get it (If you can afford it). Weddings are for ladies and the ring is part of the "show off" factor. Just life, I guess.

My wife and I shopped aroung until we found a ring she wanted. I'm glad we did -- she is happy with her ring. That's all that really matters.

Don't forget to get them to put a "Marine Cut" on your ring (and hers if she wants it); have them cut 1/3 the way thru the ring so it will break before your finger does. Saved my Dad a finger.

(Offer not valid in some states of mind. Please see dealer for details. Content of this posting are not the opinions of the electrons that delivered it)

Say it with Titanium

[matt-fu]

I know the topic is engagement rings, but it bears mentioning that a replica of the wedding ring that Brigman wears in The Abyss is available from The Titanium Workshop.

A little consistency...

[bill.sheehan]

Don't support companies that contribute to such mistreatment of our fellow human beings. (You bring De Beers, and let's have apatheid!) What kind of a monster would proclaim his love with a rock bought with blood?

While we're at it, there's that computer you're using. Ever look at where the parts are made? Malaysian sweatshops. Wonder what happens to all those dangerous carcinogenic and mutagenic chemicals used in doping chips? Bet they don't have EPA regulators watching over them. How many third-world children suffer so you can have a computer?

Then there's the matter of your shoes. And your belt. Shall I tell you how the cow with the big brown eyes is led down the ramp into the slaugherhouse...

I'm being only a little fascetious here. The fact of the matter is that you can make an excellent case that monstrous things are done in order for us to buy cheap computers, flashy diamonds, or Florsheims. And it's also easy to find countries begging to be exploited - they call it "jobs" and "hard currency" and "investment." And you know, both points of view are absolutely right.

If your beloved likes diamonds, get her one. Get her a small one surmounted with a couple smaller emeralds or rubies or sapphires. Or get her a big honkin' rock with a massive inclusion and a faint yellow cast - nobody will ever screw a loupe into their eye to examine it. I'll guarantee that the jeweler will give you an appraisal that says it's worth twice what you paid, so you're going to look like a high-roller no matter what.

You have to balance on the tippy-toes of one foot to stand on the moral high ground.

-- Bill

Re:A little consistency...

[josh crawley]

---Then there's the matter of your shoes. And your belt. Shall I tell you how the cow with the big brown eyes is led down the ramp into the slaugherhouse...

Not a problem at all for me. I am a proud eater of meats and such foods. I have (shudder) leather belts, black leather trench coat and many other goods. I've also slaughtered a cow, pig, 4 ducks and 3 chickens.

If you'd like to pay for a nice live cow (shipping/handling/cost of cow) right up to my porch, I'll teach you how to. Then we can have T-Bone. Well, I actually perfer chuck roast (when prepared as T-Bone but rare) because of the much better tasting meats.

Cubic Zuchini

[LongShip]

Good ol' Cubic zirconium. Factory made. You can get a whopper for little dough. Don't support the
deBeers. Diamonds are a racket.

Forget the diamond and buy something that means something -- a down payment on a home comes to mind.

For price, skip the middleman

[ari{Dal}]

www.thaigem.com. They've got a great reputation, and you can get stones there for dirt cheap compared to elsewhere (loose, set, design your own, whatever). They'll also do custom settings if you email them a design, and the prices are great.

Personally, as a woman, I find diamonds tacky on any female under 45. If I ever got engaged, I'd prefer something exotic, like a bi coloured tourmaline set in white gold... but that's me :)

It's worth checking into though, to see if she's flexible on it. There are so many beautiful gems out there that are just as nice as, and even nicer than, diamonds.

Tradition be damned.

Cheapest Diamond Ring...

[Upidivl]

A few years ago in art class, I made a girl a "24 carrot dime-in-ring" for her birthday. I measured her finger, drew 24 little carrots on a piece of tape and then put a dime in the top (wherever that is on a ring). Probably not the best for a marriage commintment though...

I was in a similar situation...

[DoktorFaust]

My fiance and I were also faced with this issue, so can tell you my thought process that went into buying a diamond.

We looked at like this: what traditions do we want to follow when getting married? (we also questioned the tradition of marriage...)

For me personally, rings were not a tradition I cared for -- I would much rather place my money elsewhere. My fiance, on the other hand, is very much a ring person and particularly likes the tradition. She does, however, completely understand and admit that diamonds are significantly over-valued, blah, blah, blah...

So how did I rationalize spending $1000 dollars on a silly diamond ring? I decided that 1) the ring is important to her. 2) it's a one time investment. 3) when I want to go buy a 3000 computer that she doesn't care for, I'm going to want her support too.

My recommendation is thus to weigh BOTH of your priorities. Although the ring may be almost meaningless to you, find out how important it is to her, and if it's important, make the investment. She'll enjoy it for many, many years... (certainly longer than you'll enjoy your $3000 computer :-)

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Analog Penguin]

To a cynic, that is the perfect symbol of life :)

Diamonds!!

[NotSoNewBe]

#1 Get a modest diamond ring in a gold setting, set high. Then when you tie the knot, the wedding band could have a spray of Rubies that encircle the Dimond in a gold setting. Then, at least, when "your" daughter is old enough to have one of her own, she won't think "you" were a tight-wad your entire life!
#2 When that time comes, no one will remember what hapened at the time your diamond was harvested from the earth.
#3 The ring is a symbol for a promice, how much you spend is in relation to how serious "you" feel toward that promice.
#4 I've got more reasons, but I'll leave it at that. Geez.. You must be very young.

A Possible Solution

[HelpdeskRAGE]

Have you tried Antique Stores? I know it sounds odd but it worked for me and might for you for the following reasons: 1. she gets the diamond she wanted. 2. There's not much terrorism funding from second hand diamonds. and 3rd, like you said they don't have much resale value so It wouldn't break you. Just some thoughts.

My Wife Proposed to Me!

[Fuseboy]

My wife proposed to me, with an inexpensive silver ring. She'd prefer something I made myself to needlessly expensive trophies.

If you really loved her, wouldn't you have spent a little more?

Michael

Diamondelle

[MBCook]

I think you should follow the example of the Drew Carey Show. Get your fiancee a Diamondelle (r). They're very common, so they don't cost much. In fact, chances are that the window in the room you're in now is just a giant Diamondelle (r). He he he.

Emeralds and Rubies...

[atgrim]

are what my lady wants. Her favorite stone is the Emerald and I already purchased a 3ct. stone for her. I plan on picking up the Rubies from a trusted jeweler friend of mine and he will also set all the stones for me (1 Emerald 5 Rubies). Anyway, there is my alternative.

Buy an engagement house instead

[JimmytheGeek]

Proves committment, and you aren't being a manipulated cash cow for the nitwits selling the rocks.

Worked for us (married 10 days now).

If it had been important to her, sure. I'd have happily had the ceremony nostril deep in a sewage lagoon if that was what she wanted. But between an inert, valueless rock and a down payment? No contest!

The One Ring you get...

[Sigma Kiwi]

...must be durable (won't melt in flame!), have a tasteful inscription to prove authenticity, and (above all) be preciousssssssssss to her.

Inherited

[montge]

Something kind of weird, and we used a family diamond ring, which has been used for two generations now. She found this more special, then just spending the multiple thousands of dollars to get something that yes is special, but has no history. Plus it allowed us to spend money on our wedding in ways that were more special to us.

"Conflict" diamonds....how PC

[Rude Turnip]

How politically correct...you wouldn't want to offend the guerillas/monsters that kill and mame innocent families and use diamond sales to further their warped causes.

I toured a jewelery manufacturing plant a couple years back and interviewed the head of the company. At least in the US, these diamonds were a major concern for the US jewelry industry...so much that the stores were making the suppliers sign pledges to the effect that they would never buy such diamonds.

The industry term is "BLOOD DIAMONDS" and I think we should refer to them as such in this discuss so as to not minimize or trivialize the effect they are having on the poor people in the regions in which they are found. Repeat after me...
"They are blood diamonds."

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[aziraphale]

Apparently not only never had a girlfriend, but also never seen a diamond. Ugly rock? Them's some strange aesthetic sensibilities.

Regardless of everything you may have to say about the diamond industry, diamonds themselves aren't really to blame, and a pure cut diamond is one of the most amazing natural objects you'll ever see. These things get dug out of the fricking ground, damnit - they're the hardest material in existence, a pure sample of the basic chemical element that makes up life on this planet, and they shine like nothing you've ever seen.

If you're choosing a symbol to represent unending love, there's not a lot wrong with choosing a life-giving, pure element, aside from the lack of originality, but why does everything you do have to be original?

Frankly, if you're looking to buy a ring, all the best looking ones have a big diamond in the middle. If you're worried about ethics, make sure you buy from a jeweller who shares your concerns - and they do exist. Choose a craftsman whose work you like. A good ring is a work of art, one your wife will wear for the rest of her life. That's gotta be worth a few bucks.

All I can say is DUH!

[TheAwfulTruth]

You'd have to be living under a rock to not have known all that by now.

Here's another clue. Mother's day, Fathers day, Valentines day, most of what we think of as Christmas are also all department store and card shop fabrications.

So anyway. I was also a little POed that the woman got this great gift and the man gets nothing, so my wife and I agreed to buy each other engagement rings. We got some nice dark opal rings that can be used as dress wear any time. MOST opal production has local benefits to the miners and local opal towns themselves.

just get one

[benny_lama]

stop being a cheap bastard and get her a ring. What is a measly couple of grand to see a smile on your fiance's lips? Besides it will let you go at least a year before she cuts you off in the sack.

Be original: the geek/Lennon alternative

[alienmole]

Buy her a ring with an embedded MP3 player which plays a single song, over and over:

I'll buy you a diamond ring my friend if it makes you feel alright
I'll get you anything my friend if it makes you feel alright
'cause I don't care too much for money, and money can't buy me love

...

Say you don't need no diamond ring and I'll be satisfied
Tell me that you want the kind of thing that money just can't buy
I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love

For extra points, throw in an extra verse or two about caring for free software... I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. Anyone want to take up the challenge?

Go 'antique'.

[sbaker]

I bought my wife a antique diamond ring. As you suggest, there is
very little resale value for second-hand diamonds - so they are cheap.
On the other hand, *you* may look cheap if you arrive on bended knee
with a modern second hand ring.

The answer is to seek out an antique ring - the Victorian ring I settled
on was about the same price as a new, modern ring - but MUCH nicer than
anything you could get off-the-shelf - probably fairly unique too.

It's pretty scandalous how the diamond industry has hyped these rather
common rocks though. In a rational world we'd treasure more important
things.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[fishbowl]

"make sure you buy from a jeweller who shares your concerns - and they do exist."

Jewelers who get their wholesale diamonds from a source other than DeBeers... exist? Cite please.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[packeteer]

the point of diamonds and flowers is that your blowing money on her with no return... i think its ironic that your sig is a link to the EFF... so you beleive in electronic freedom but not freedom for miners to be able to afford food for their families?... you can blow money on her without buying a diamond... what about some other stone?

That's what's divorced parents are for

[Uteck]

My mom was happy to give me the ring my dad gave here. It was just sitting in her jewle box gather dust, and he did't mind. At least it was being used. And now it is more then a mere ring from the store, it's a family heirloom now!
Total cost, about $20 for the adjustment to fit.

Certified Canadian Diamonds & The Shane Co.

[crimoid]

First, get a Certified Canadian Diamond. They are harder to find, but these diamonds are mined in Canada (which has massive diamond deposits) where labor laws are more humane. Its nearly impossible to find a Canadian diamond unless you go near the source or you have a jeweler that you trust.

Second, although they don't have Canadian diamonds (that I know of) the Shane Co. (California, Oregon, elsewhere?) will give you terrific trade-in values on other purchases for dimonds that you buy from them.

Try Canadia Diamonds.......

[SphynxSR]

They are from Canada and they are tracked by the Government. They have Laser Serial Numbers on each diamond. You can get some info and great deals from http://www.earth-treasures.com

Just tell her I said,

[orthogonal]

"Honey, some loveless geek on Slashdot told me not to get you a diamond. So, really, it's not my fault, ok?"

"BTW, I re-partioned your PC, got rid of Windows, and set you up with free BSD and a Tesla coil."

"Honey? Honey?"

Re:Something actually unique...DIY

[spezz]

My girlfriend took a jewlery making class with a couple who were there to make their wedding rings. It works well as a bonding experience and as learning a new set of skills. And really, you get to buy torches and anvils and stuff.

Family Heirlooms

[G0nz0]

I went the sentimental route. I gave her my mom's engagement ring. Yes, it happened to actually be a diamond, but regardless the sentimentality of the gesture gets some good points.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[TheWickedKingJeremy]

... , and they are a wonderful symbol of life itself.

Thats just it - I tend to associate flowers with death in most cases... Its weird how people can take something so elegant, cut it down, put it in a jar, and watch it die for a few days.

If you like flowers so much, dont you think people/the-city should plant them around at various places - and then just leave them there??? Ahhh to each their own I suppose...

Diamonds are a girls best friend....NOT

[e_nygma99]

My wife actually educated me on the fact that DeBeers runs the whole show concerning Diamonds. Then, she implored me to buy her sapphires, since she likes them better..

lessons from my family

[xeno]

Some personal perspective on the issue:

• What my grandfather did: He worked as a chemist for a big-name laboratory, and took a the first chunk of a metal alloy that he invented, and had it forged into a three-metal set of intertwined bands. The result looked similar to those silver-gold-copper ringsets that are pretty common, except that it was silver, gold, and this high-strength alloy he invented. No stone. His wife loved that it was (a) unique, (b) symbolized his effort and thought, (c) had high value but didn't make her feel like a target for muggers in 1920's NYC. They were still diggin' each other when they died in their 90's.
• What my father did: Bought a gold ring with a run-o-the-mill diamond. Matching plain band. Divorced. Ugly, ugly divorce. Lots of money issues. Fought over the return of the ring.
• What I did: I took my wife-to-be to a local place that did platinum casting through the lost-wax method. We created a design, checked out the wax models before casting, and let the metal artist do his thing. They're both a honeycomb design with no stone, which worked fine as engagement & wedding ring. My wife digs it because (a) our rings are unique/only similar to each other, (b) we designed them together, (c) they're *very* durable, and (d) there's a lot less guilt associated with a valuable metal than in an overpriced colorless stone. I still dig this chick after 15 years.

That isn't very many data points, but I think the lesson is that if the ring selection is more of a personal investment than a shopping effort, it's a good sign. Sure, the ring should have some durable value, but anyone who says only diamonds have value as a symbol of love needs to ponder on the primary practical use of diamonds: an abrasive.

Jon

Re:lessons from my family

[stinky wizzleteats]

mod parent up.

Where are you people finding these chicks? Mine is already talking about a 10 year anniversary ring.

Re:lessons from my family

[Eric Smith]

took a the first chunk of a metal alloy that he invented, and had it forged into a three-metal set of intertwined bands.

And then his wife traded it to his mistress for some more impressive looking jewelry.

Sorry, couldn't resist making the "Atlas Shrugged" reference. Personally I think that's a much better gift than *anything* store-bought. It's amazingly cool that your grandfather did that, and that your grandmother appreciated it.

Re:lessons from my family

[GigsVT]

Heh, the first thing I thought of also was Rearden steel.

That's pretty cool that it really happened though.

Re:lessons from my family

[pz]

In many European cultures (eg, Greek, whence I draw my experience), the proposal has no suprise gift involved, and for the duration of the engagement, the wedding rings are worn on the opposite hand for both partners. The rings are then swapped over as part of the wedding ceremony.

A number of my friends after hearing this were inspired to follow suit. As you might imagine, these people were not traditionalists in any sense of the word, but for them, it made more sense than throwing thousands of dollars into an easily stolen or lost diamond.

You can sure pick 'em

[fendel]

Sounds like you're picking the wrong women.

Look, guys--all of you who are complaining about how every girl you've been with wants a rock--examine your criteria. If you're always going after the gorgeous babes, keep in mind that looking that way is practically a full-time job: these women are, more often than not, obsessed with their appearance. And then you're surprised when they want to decorate their hand with a big honking diamond?!

I say basically the same thing to my friend who bitches about how she always dates handsome jerks who treat her like dirt: Stop chasing eye candy. Find yourself a smart person with a great personality who makes you laugh.

The AC's are going to have a field day with this one. I can see it now: "You must be 300 pounds, huh huh huh..." You know something? I'm no Vogue model. But I can make my guy laugh, cook him a killer meal, build him a computer, and do a few other nifty things I won't go into right now, and I told him flat-out NOT to waste his money on a diamond.

It's your choice. Find yourself a geeky woman, or else keep chasing diamond-fixated babes and quit bitching about it.

Diamond Substitute

[Lizimal]

According to the sources I've read and my old geology prof, who was a very cool guy, a good sapphire is much rarer than even the rarest diamond. I always preferred the colour anyway. :)

Liz

Re:Diamond Substitute

[tuxedobob]

Actually, when I visited Australia I learned that a dark (black?-- I forget) opal with a fair amount of red in it can out-value a diamond of the same size. Although, someone else has already mentioned on here that opals aren't as hard as diamonds, but oh well.

Re:Diamond Substitute

[Soulslayer]

Not to mention that gold is actually more rare than diamonds.

If the diamond industry was not held hostage by an army equipped cartel (DeBeers) diamonds would be far more affordable.

And perhaps people would wake up and realize that many (all?) diamond related tradtions are the sole creation of the marketing department of DeBeers.

<obligatory /. dig at Microsoft>
At least Microsoft does not have an equipped standing army at its disposal.
</obligatory /. dig at Microsoft>

Re:Diamond Substitute

[Lizimal]

Of course, DeBeers is, at the moment, camped out fairly close to where I sit, lol, seeing as they've just found some 'gemstone quality' diamonds near where I live, after some digging around, pardon the pun. It should be interesting to see what happens to the area if it pans out, at any rate. L

Re:Laptops are a girl's best friend

[TibbonZero]

And the laptop won't be outdated in 3 months (well not totally)!!!

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

diamond engagment rings

[timestocome]

If she wants the ring buy her one.

You will find price varies greatly for the same 4Cs and there are some excellent on line deals. You pick a diamond, they ship it to a local jeweler for your approval and you purchase it if you like it. Antique stores usually have some nice ones in the display. The older diamonds are often of better quality than you can buy now and you can get it remounted if the setting isn't pleasing. Most jewelers in malls etc will sell you the ring for 50% of the marked price, don't be afraid to bargain some.

A rule of thumb the girls use is 'if he is too cheap to buy a diamond, he'll make a stingy husband'

You can get a good re-sale on the diamond by trading it up. Often couples starting out don't have much money and don't buy large diamonds. Any reputable jeweler will take a good diamond in trade for a larger one later.

US oil consumed is mostly NOT from mid east

[johnpaul191]

it's a myth. unfortuantely i am on my way out the door and don't have the time to find the proof, but it's true. i think it's something like 12 or 14 percent of our oil comes from that region. granted that's still a lot of oil, but nothing like the 90% that joe 6-pack american seems to think.

out of those countries we get oil from i do not know how many may be considered shady today. the enemy seems to change every few years. whatever your political views are, the only real constant pal the United States seems to have over there is Isreal and they are lacking the oil reserves that would keep the USA stocked happy. it seems like everyone else manages to upset us one time or another (or they were also too friendly with the USSR and therefore no longer our friend) argh.

ride a bike, it solves more problems than you would ever know.

Re:US oil consumed is mostly NOT from mid east

[Anonymous Coward]

Israel certainly isn't the only ally we have in the area... We have a series of airbases in Cyprus, cruise missiles in Turkey and ports of call throughout the region (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc).

Why don't you check the CIA factbook for the amount of oil that is imported from the region? You would see that a large majority of it comes from Arab nations. The other significant sources of crude are Venezuela, Western Africa (Offshore drilling), the North Sea and Russia.

As for diamonds, Angola, Botswana, South Africa and Russia are the biggest exporters.

Please get your facts straight before posting utter rubbish.

Re:US oil consumed is mostly NOT from mid east

[stephanruby]

April 8th, 2002 Saddam Hussein starts a 30-day oil embargo on the United States.
April 11th, 2002 The President of Venezuela, the head of OPEC, gets kidnapped.
Coincidence, I think not.

Mark my words. Just a couple of hours before we go into Iraq, the President of Venezuela and his government will be massacred.

Re:US oil consumed is mostly NOT from mid east

[melee]

I hadn't thought of that before. Israel really did get the geopolitical shaft on that one: shoved right into one of more difficult to inhabit regions of the world, surrounded by ill-wishers and displaced populations, and not even getting a piece of the one resource that makes the area worth being in.

Suck. That's one game of Civ3 I don't want to play.

Look, US greenbacks are used by terrorists...

[candylilacs]

I'm sure gold bullion is too, let's eliminate that. And platinum, and maybe rubies and emeralds, too. Yeah, we'll show them!

Look, a diamond has re-sale value if it's unset. It loses it if it's set, just like driving a car off the dealership parking lot.

And yes, you can still get some of your money back if you go to a reputable dealer (don't go to a chain or the mall, go to family-owned business where the mark-up isn't so high, they have crap and they lie to you to get you to buy) and buy the stone....and then have it set, go together and choose it, make it special.

Get it appraised by the US Gemological Society (or whatever it is) and get on with life.

Yes, it's terrible the situations diamond miners are in Africa, it also sucks for all that child labor in Asia and Central America making your Gap/KMart/Target/Macy's clothes. It also sucks for them not to get you to buy their products so they lose the $5 a day they make.

It's good to have a conscience, but don't let one damn special on ABC's 20/20 do it. Research the issue, give money to the United Way or go to Africa and fight oppression -- but spare me the piddly sanctimonious crap of trying to get out of buying your decent, great girlfriend an expensive diamond.

I'm not believing it.

Yes, I'm female and I chose a .85 carat, grade E color, VS 1. And that, boys, is a damn fine ring.

cl.

Re:Look, US greenbacks are used by terrorists...

[candylilacs]

Look, Moronitron:

I seriously doubt you have a girlfriend, but aside from that...Apparently your alleged gf knows you're a cheap bastard but she's trying to get something cool from your locked wallet. So...does that mean she's a golddigger? I guess if she was real, anyway.

I don't think I ever said that diamonds were rare, dorkius geekus, are you attempting to read my mind? If you can, then you know I'm calling you a cheap-ass-motherfucker-pretend-girlfriend-who-does n't-read-a-periodical-never-get-laid-unless-she's- paid-who-never-went-to-the-prom-because-he-wouldn' t-buy-roses-because-they're-so-expensive-and-the-p implefaced-girl-ditched-your-sorry-ass.

As for the ruby, I have a few of those and sapphires, and topazes and garnets and etc., it's called owning a jewelry box, goofball. If she doesn't have any nice jewelry than it's your fault, cheappants....or she's ugly, but I don't know why you'd make up an ugly gf...maybe because of your low self-esteem.

Go out and buy your man-made ruby and enjoy, you freak. Maybe get it set in vermeil or pewter, you philistine.

And if I didn't make it clear, you're an idiot, chimpboy.

c.

Re:Look, US greenbacks are used by terrorists...

[candylilacs]

Yes, I know I have the superior intellect, that's why I was taking you to school.

The dot-commer thing...interesting, but not quite true, although I am called princess by my husband but not because I'm affiliated with the tech industry. You must have very weird friends.

And oddly enough, you didn't mention if your "alleged" girlfriend frequently howls at the moon.

I guess you must find me threatening, so the one thing that scares you is -- dot-commers. How very odd.

I'll let you believe that so you can feel better about not getting the last speck of dirt off Dad's car or not being successful at unclogging that toilet. I can be charitable.

And I'll even ignore the fact that you're sooooo whipped that you take what your alleged girlfriend says over your own thinking. Brilliant!

Yes, I think you're an idiot, but now you've made me feel pity for you. Milquetoasts can never keep chicks because women usually like men with spines.

A periodical is a newspaper, a magazine, a journal that is published periodically. That's for your vocabulary building blocks, perhaps you can share it with your ESL class.

c.

Re:Look, US greenbacks are used by terrorists...

[candylilacs]

Enjoy your mediocre gamma/epsilon life.

I always find that people with little imagination paint other people with their failings. Does your life suck that much? Is this why you've pursued this for three days?

As for grammar, unless you're an English teacher, please refrain from giving anyone any lessons other than being an annoying git. You're colorless and pointless and even less exciting when attempting to impart your bits of knowledge.

And, wait a minute. I'm an IT "princess" before and now I read Cosmo and watch "Friends." Hmmm, are these all girls who rejected you recently? Well, yes, I'd certainly reject you so you've gotten that right.

It must be awful to be you and be jealous of so many other people. So frightened of women yet so rejected by them.

P.S. Dude, we all read "Brave New World" in high school and using "gamma" even then to describe people was tired. Read at least one book every five years.

c.

Re:Look, US greenbacks are used by terrorists...

[candylilacs]

Is the crack you're smoking that good?

Catch-phrases? Look tech-snob, either I'm an IT "princess" or I'm not, you seem to have no idea.

People like you are like gum on my shoe. You stupidly talk about things you know nothing about. What's the difference between a ruby and a sapphire? Do you know what a Canary diamond is? Do you even know what the four Cs are? Do you even know that diamonds come in various colors like blue, pink and red?

You don't. Now you understand why I think you're stupid. You get into an argument you know nothing about then argue with sheer density how you're right, even though you know nothign about the topic, because you now C++.

Knowing C++ does not make you intelligent or witty. It just make you able to read parts of a book. The world isn't made so people who know C++
will rule the world. The idiocy of this is very funny, especially you yelling at people, "I know C++, be my girlfriend!"

You don't know anything unless you look it up on the Internet. I addressed the topic at hand and said that unset diamonds are valuable. Set are not. I don't know what makes you so ridiculously stupid as to not understand that point...yet here you are, continuing to pretend you never saw it.

And telling me that you knowing C++ somehow makes you smarter. It doesn't. It just makes me think you're dull. That's the best accomplishment you can make? Not that, "Hey, I'm hot in bed!" or "I have a Ph.D in anything" or "I have a real girlfriend."

Your life must be excruciatingly boring. And you must be excruciatingly stupid as to think somehow anyone will be washing your clothes or dusting your house other than your mother.

I know several people who came from other countries and didn't even speak English. Yet made a thriving business and are doing better than you probably ever will. Because they have intelligence and ambition.

They don't sit on their lame-asses, tell people they know C++ and wait quietly for the revolution. There won't be one for you. Because you lack the ambition and passion to change your own life. You know a computer language and somehow your life will be easy? Hardly.

People like you have very linear thinking, very two-dimensional. Point A to Point B and life is written in black and white. How colorblind of you.

For real people without short-sightedness, life is a learning process. Knowing you have all the answers with no research and stupid logic just make for black eyes and broken noses.

You have no girlfriend unless she's using you as a meal ticket. You're an engineer of some kind, right?

b.

Re:Look, US greenbacks are used by terrorists...

[candylilacs]

I've found when I was in school that it was only engineers who thought they knew everything. They were in the School of Engineering which made them only take 2-4 classes of non-engineering classes their entire college career, but they were always the idiots who would argue with economics majors, history majors, psychology majors, etc. that they knew more about their subject than those majoring in them.

God, if I had dime for every time I've heard an engineer start arguing about the greatness of a "free market" economy I'd have a house on the central coast. Of course, then they disliked Bill Gates. This illogical thinking somehow was argued as logical and they kept bleating facts gleaned from a Time/Slashdot/Newsweek article about how they knew more than anyone else.

I've found that most engineers in an attempt to show they didn't completely waste their lives studying the most introverted subject on earth have to argue that they're intelligent.

Reading or learning about a subject is boring. Telling everyone you're an expert is easy.

So...you're probably a software engineer. You're not a hit with the ladies. You probably only have a girlfriend now because you make an OK salary and women as they get older want more money...the same women who pointedly ignored you in high school and college.

I know what you are. I know dozens of your type. You're not interesting or particularly intelligent. The only exception to this I found at MIT, where a few guys I lived with read literature, played two instruments and were a blast. I somehow doubt you're that evolved.

Intelligence, like attractiveness, is subjective, something you obviously don't understand.

I think programming C++ has got to be the most boring job on earth, but hey, the world has you to do that crap. Meanwhile, I'll be doing something else.

As for effect on the world, I volunteer with CASA, where I look out for the interests of children that are wards of the court. I can't think of a better way to change the world than by helping children not be molested or abused. I bet that kind of makes your argument about how great you are being an engineer kind of pointless, doesn't it?

I have to shake my head at people like you. You've given nothing to the world except your inflated idea of your own intelligence. And most people don't think you're that bright...but that's another story.

I'm done with you. You're too dense to follow basic threads.

c.

The Atlantic article is really interesting

[phr2]

I may blow some /. karma by saying this, but that Atlantic article is one of the best pieces I've seen linked from /. in quite a while. It has nothing to do with tech or software and can't really be called news for nerds, but it's an eye-opener about how businesses manipulate public perception out there in the real world. If you skipped the article and went straight to the comments like I did, it's worth going back to read the article.

Re:The Atlantic article is really interesting

[RedWizzard]

One point, however: that article is 20 years old. Obviously the history is still accurate, but is the current diamond situation still the same? The article seemed to be implying that all sorts of changes where just around the corner - did any of that actually happen?

Re:The Atlantic article is really interesting

[danny]

Yes, a great article! But it was written in 1982, does anyone know of an account of the last twenty years of the diamond business?

Danny.

Washer and Dryer - That's right! Washer and Dryer!

[ethaz]

When I married my wonderful wife, she was a divorced mom with two boys. We could have done the traditional ring. But she needed a new washer and dryer. She was dragging everything to the laundromat. It was an easy choice. I took her to Montgomery-Ward and we picked out a washer and dryer and had it installed in a couple of days. She still tells the story, happily.

One ring to tule them all...

[starX]

If you think diamonds are forever, you're going to love the new One Ring model at Sauron's Jewelers (with 1 convenient locataion in the Barad-dur shopping mall, located right in the shadow of Mount Doom).

This ring is guaranteed to last for all eternity, and will grant countless powers as well as being a pledge of your ever lasting and eternal love. When my grandfather first forged this ring in ages past, he made it to last, and it has certainly stood the test of time. What better way of telling that special someone "This is going to last forever?"

Supplies are EXTREMELY limited, so hurry on in, or email DarkLord@mordor.org for this and other wonderful items.

Re:One ring to tule them all...

[Kredal]

I gave this ring to my wife, and now she's never home.. she just disappears for hours at a time.. she says she's going shopping, but I think she's just avoiding me.

Re:One ring to tule them all...

[nEoN nOoDlE]

Oh please... I bought that damn ring and it was stolen by some 3 foot midget... Don't listen to what he tells you, that ring is bad luck.

Re:One ring to tule them all...

[Archon-X]

Returned mail: spammer@aol.com

To-Address: DarkLord@mordor.org

Original Message as follows:

Interested in buying or selling jewellery? then come to our website, where all your jewellery are belong to us! http://www.shop.com/Jewellery@100.22.235.73

You've recevied this email because of your expressed interest in jewellery. If you don't want to receive future emails, please send an email with the subject 'Confirmed Email Address' to spammer@aol.com

Re:One ring to tule them all...

[linderdm]

You can actually buy it here.

It's in the chemistry

[psicE]

What are diamonds, but hyper-compressed carbon? Scientists are now able to synthesize diamonds in labs. Mind you, I have no idea how that works, if it's practical to get one of those, if the cost's insane; but if not, why not?

If that doesn't work, you could always just find a reasonably-sized/priced diamond, then buy an equivalent price amount of other stones; say, rubies, sapphires, emeralds, one of each, exactly which doesn't matter. Probably, the amount you would have spent on a diamond ring will allow you to get a ruby ring, bracelet, necklace, and earrings; of course, I'm talking out of my ass seeing that I've never bought gems and won't anytime soon, but last I checked diamonds were far more expensive than anything else.

Course, if you're really lucky, your girlfriend will like silver and stone-other-than-diamond better in the first place, based on looks alone. :D

Re:Tanzonite

[einhverfr]

Yeah-- it is a really beautiful stone-- and Tzavorite too... The only trouble is no one has heard of them. So a ruby, sapphire, or emerald may be better for an engagement ring.

Anyway, other little-known but beautiful stones are:
1: Red spinel (many crown rubies turned out to be these)
2: Tourmaline (Many different colors-- look for Rose of France, a beautiful pink tourmaline).
3: Alexandrite (changes color in artificial light)

real world

[Vodak]

if she wants one your ethics have no place.. she gets it or your aint getting her =]

If she doesn't know...

[TibbonZero]

You know it's kinda hard to tell a really really good CZ from a diamond, unless you are a jeweler and put it under a microscope. I think some CZ's respond to ultraviolet light, but only slightly so that people can tell the difference. But will she really know?...

Re:If she doesn't know...

[rm -rf /etc/*]

I think the question you need to ask here would be, do you really want to start out your marriage with a lie?

Re:If she doesn't know...

[TibbonZero]

Hmm, good point. But seriously, if she didn't tell anyone that it was a CZ, and just said "Look at this huge rock"...
But better, read my other post farther down... I think it's a better marrige idea..

Moissanite: A politically correct alternative

[Barryo_Stereo]

My wife has chosen Moissanite due to a very bad experience with a local mall-jeweler. The certified diamond she bought was enclosed with a "certificate" that, upon checking with IGI was found to be fraudulent. She got her money back only after some stressful discussions with the store. We then saw an article in the Washington Post discussing a "new diamond simulate" by Charles and Colvard. It has all of the same properties as a diamond but is actually more brilliant. The best news is that it is being sold at a fraction of the cost of a good diamond. Since it looks as good and lasts as long, and you understand the political problems with diamonds, including the artificially elevated prices, then Moissanite is a great alternative. Check out some tech details at www.4facets.com/news2000.htm
Barry

Here is a place to check historical prices

[Athex]

I was just searching around and found a place to look at the historical prices of Diamonds and other gemstones located here: http://www.preciousgemstones.com/20YRPRICECHARTS.H TML

Looks to me if you would have bought it '78 and sold in '80 you would be rich!

Something I saw posted...

[D. Mann]

This wasn't written by me; I copied it off of the somethingawful.com forums.

Actual conversation between me and my girlfriend:

Me: If we get engaged, don't expect much in the way of a ring. I'm pretty broke.
Her: It's OK. I don't need a very expensive ring.
Me [uneasy at the qualifier "very"]: ... because your brother just got engaged, and that ring he gave her was pretty impressive...
Her: Yes, it was beautiful! I'd love to have a ring like that!
Me: ... and I'm worried that anything I could give you wouldn't measure up to that.
Her: Don't be silly. I wouldn't want more than you could afford.
Me: Define "afford."
Her: Two months' salary is normal.
Me [calculating]: Um... wow. That would be, like, $4000. That's a lot.
Her: Gross, dear, not net. It would be more like $6000.
Me: Who makes up these rules?
Her: That's just the custom, honey.
Me: You know that's just a marketing gimmick started by the diamond cartels around the turn of the century, don't you?
Her: Silly. I don't need an expensive ring.
Me: The conversation up to this point notwithstanding?
Her: Two months' salary is normal. It's not expensive.
Me: So if you found, say, $6000 worth of computer hardware on our joint credit card, I could say "Hey, that's not expensive; it's just what computers cost!"
Her: That's different. That would be just for you. The ring is for both of us.
Me: So I get to wear this ring part of the time?
Her: Silly. The ring shows everyone how much you love me.
Me: And what shows everyone how much you love me?
Her: The ring.
Me: Do you see a certain asymmetry in this arrangement?
Her: You should be proud that everyone sees me wearing your ring. It tells the world how much you value me.
Me: Approximately $6000 worth, apparently. Does this mean that rich men value their wives more than poor men?
Her: No. It's two months' salary for everyone.
Me: Ah, so wives are priced on a sliding scale, then, like low-income housing?
Her: I wouldn't put it that way.
Me: How would you put it?
Her: A little money is a small price to pay for something that lasts forever.
Me: You lifted that directly from a jewelery commercial.
Her: That doesn't make it untrue.
Me: Touché.
Her: Look, if you live to be 80...
Me: I don't like that "if."
Her [ignoring me]: ... and you're 33 now, that's $6000 divided by 47 years of marriage. That's like, $130 a year. You spend more than that on video games.
Me: I'm alarmed at how quickly you arrived at that number.
Her [ignoring me]: $130 a year isn't so much for my love, is it?
Me: Well, it's a good deal cheaper than escort services.... OW! OW! Quit hitting; I'm driving here!
Her: You get a lot more from this relationship than sex.
Me: Yeah, the contusions make it all worthwhile.
Her: Baby.
Me: Y'know, this actually works out better for you if I die early. Your yearly value increases inversely to the length of my life. If I only live to 50....
Her: I'm tired of talking about this.
Me: That's because you're losing.
Her: I'm not losing. We're not competing. You told me you couldn't afford an expensive ring, and I said that was OK.
Me: Ah, so it's the "affording" part that's irrelevant.
Her: Stop being so silly. I've bought jewelry on credit before; it's no big deal.
Me: That's the solution!
Her: What is?
Me: You buy the ring.
Her: That's not how it works, honey.
Me: If people look at the ring to see how much I love you, wouldn't it make sense to get the most expensive ring available? You've got better credit than me, so....
Her: But the point is for you to buy it, so people can see how much you value me.
Me: How are people going to know who bought it? Do the salespeople engrave the credit card holder's name on the band?
Her: I'll know.
Me: Well, yes, that's a given.
Her: I'll know you didn't want to pay for my ring.
Me: I thought we'd established that.
Her: I'm tired of talking about this. Forget it.
Me: I'm trying to understand, really. We're supposed to have a token of our love, right?
Her: Whatever. Right.
Me: This token is something you would want anyway, a piece of jewelry.
Her: Honey...
Me: Bear with me. The token is sized for you, presumably styled the way I think you'd like it...
Her: Actually, I get to pick it out.
Me: Even better for my purposes. So the token is styled just for you, sized so only you can wear it. You keep it with you always. Do we both own it?
Her: No, the bride owns the ring always.
Me: OK. So you get a ring that may or may not be expensive, depending on your definition, which is your exclusive property to do with as you please. I get to pay for it. Remember what I said about asymmetry?
Her: So you want a ring?
Me: No. To be symmetrical, it would have to be something I want. A laptop, for instance.
Her: You want an engagement laptop?
Me: That's just an example.
Her: That's not parallel. Computers depreciate; good jewelry doesn't.
Me: Good point. I guess there's no such thing as a ring upgrade.
Her: Actually, they make these things called "sleeves" which you buy for major anniversaries....
Me: Dude, I'm gettin' a Dell!

Re:Something I saw posted...

[suffocate]

plastickiwi wrote that. Here's a follow up of sorts. Why he went and got married to that chick is beyond me. eh.

Scene: a chalet bedroom, 3am.

Her: Do you love me?
Me: Wha? Who? Whassamatta?
Her: Are you asleep?
Me: Have we not already established the futility of asking that question?
Her: So you don't love me?
Me: What? Start over.
Her: I asked if you love me and you said it was a futile question.
Me: No, asking "Are you asleep?" is a futile question.
Her: Why?
Me: Either I am, in which case I can't hear you, or I'm not, in which case you can go ahead and talk to me without asking if I am. The question itself is pointless.
Her: But if you answer it, I know you're awake.
Me: But you want to know if I'm awake for a reason, right? You want to ask another question, right?
Her: Right.
Me: So why not just ask it? If I'm awake, I'll answer. If not, I won't. Same thing, fewer questions.
Her: So asking if you're awake is inefficient?
Me: Exactly.
Her: I wasn't aware efficiency is a concern in conversation.
Me: Efficiency is always a concern.
Her: So why do you leave the seat up?
Me: Clarify.
Her: Why do you leave the toilet seat up? I always need it down, and you need it down 50% of the time. Efficiency would require leaving it down as a matter of practice.
Me: True.
Her: So why doesn't efficiency govern your behavior in the bathroom?
Me: I'm a hypocrite.
Her: That's a defense for anything.
Me: Clarify.
Her: Committing to a principle means abiding by its consequences. If you adopt rules in one situation, but ignore the implications of those rules in another...
Me: I'm a hypocrite.
Her: Exactly.
Me: But I admitted that.
Her: That obviates the utility of adopting rules in the first place. If you can wiggle out of anything by acknowledging hypocrisy, I could kill you and justify it by saying, "Well, I don't believe in killing people, but I'm a murderer."
Me: That's interesting.
Her: That's what you say when you can't think of anything else to say.
Me: What?
Her: "That's interesting." Then you say "What?" when I call you on it.
Me: You wanted something when this conversation started, didn't you?
Her: ...and then you change the subject.
Me: Your critique is merely descriptive, and therefore trivial. I know what I do. Stating it as if you've caught me at something scores you no points.
Her: I just wanted you to know I'm not fooled.
Me: Noted. Now, was there some other question?
Her: Do you love me?
Me: I believe the fact we were just married should answer that question adequately.
Her: Lots of married people don't love each other.
Me: True. I do love you, as it happens.
Her: Thank you.
Me: Wanna have sex?
Her: It's less fun now that it's legal.
Me: Is that a "no"?
Her: No.

Re:Something I saw posted...

[rossz]

Her: Why do you leave the toilet seat up? I always need it down, and you need it down 50% of the time. Efficiency would require leaving it down as a matter of practice.

Ladies, gravity is on your side.

Re:Something I saw posted...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone else find it unlikely that this person remembered all 100+ lines of his conversation verbatim?

Re:Something I saw posted...

[MicroBerto]

Kevin Smith should take a look at this guy's writings... he could definitely be a part of some of the dialogue that goes on in those movies (think Clerks)..

Re:Something I saw posted...

[Mojojojo Monkey Inc.]

Considering they're both huge geeks, you should know that the conversation was held via SMS text messaging on cell phones, while driving in a car. Oh yes, this marriage is going good places.

My Experience

[OS24Ever]

What I did.

Got married, used her mom's ring that had a chip on it, the setting was bigger than the diamond.

I got a band that cost $70.

We stayed together. On our 5th anniversary we each got each other the bands. She screwed up (I don't like yellow gold, white gold or platinum, she got me yellow gold), but I got her what she wanted. Platinum band, three stone diamond.

She is happy. I'm out a chunk of change, but I'll live.

[bad link URL ] Re:Moissanite:

[Anonymous Coward]

www.4facets.com/news2000.htm
did not work when I tried it.

Re:[bad link URL ] Re:Moissanite:

[Barryo_Stereo]

You're right. I just checked. The URL comes off a printout of their page I got last year. It had good tech details about the nature of the stone. FWIW, I just checked www.moissanite.com and it works, though I haven't checked it in detail to see if they have info beyond the ads.
Barry

A better option

[Anonymous Coward]

Gold is soft. So is silver. Minerals are fragile and frequently brittle.

My brother handforged steel rings for my wife and myself. Surgical grade
stainless steel. (His wedding gift to us.)

They are unique. Nobody else has such a ring, period.

They are durable; a lasting symbol of affection and trust.

They subsidise no industry other than the steel industry. Good steel can
be had from recyclers, if you know what you are doing.

The steel was chosen not to corrode from prolonged exposure to skin, and after
some seven years is holding up fine. It is tough and comfortable, with an
attractive handbuffed finish which no prepackaged jewelry can match in
character or elegance.

Pay some money, hand over some numbers to a company, or put your own thought
and work into it. Which means more?

It's a matter of perceived value

[eyefish]

It's a matter of perceived value, since imagine what a non-techie would say when we pay 100 bucks for a piece of silicon, "it's just sand!!!".

However to us it is not just sand, it represents computation, a way to research, play games, and surf the Internet.

Similarly, although I agree with the poster about the stupidity of the diamond tradition, I also must accept the fact that women give it a high emotional (and sometimes "bragging" and "proudness") value. Just as some men derive fun from finding out about the wonders of the latest sand-based microprocessor, so do many women derive pleassure from talking with their relatives and friends about their engagement and their diamond. A diamond to women is a symbol, sometimes of love, sometimes of money and power.

Bottom line, reality is what we perceive it to be, and if women give diamond a big value, then that is under all circunstances what it is worth.

It is a rare diamond that will forego the fiancee

[bandy]

As it has been said, other women will expect your fiancee to have a diamond. However, if your wife-to-be doesn't WANT or isn't EXPECTING a diamond, a CZ will be good enough to fool her girlfriends, provided [a] they don't go under black light and [b] your lady friend doesn't let it slip to anyone that it's a fake. They sparkle, they're hard, they look nice.

Put the money instead into property [a house] or a kick-ass vacation of your dreams.

The guy who proposed a lump of coal in a nice setting clearly has no experience with women. A stunt like that with even the most non-traditional of gals will result in a Bobbitting.

Gadget ring for my girl is only way I'd consider d

[aaron_pet]

I have heard about diamonds being able to cut glass... I've never actually seen it though.

I would by my wife/gfriend a diamond... ONLY if it were able to be used in a laser type thing (I don't know how they get used in lasers... probably don't) or a super tool that requires use of diamond to make it super... (a cutter etc) .. My leatherman had diamonds on it...

I just wouldn't want her to hurt herself with it... or me...

Now I just need to get a girlfriend...

HardCarbon.Com

[NortWind]

Here's two places to buy real diamonds for less than the local jewelry store, eBay (of course!) and HardCarbon. If you buy on eBay, make sure the seller 1) has good feedback, and 2) takes returns if stone doesn't appraise right. Get it appraised right away, it should cost less than $50 to do so. Then your local jewelry store can set your new stone in a ring of your choosing.

Good alternatives for diamond should be hard, (so they don't scratch,) brilliant, and valuable. Real demantoid garnet and real alexanderite are both stunning. Never buy opal in a ring you plan wear a lot, even the triplets with quartz tops scratch too easily. Turquoise, coral, jade, and pearls are also much to soft for ring stones.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[/dev/trash]

but I can almost guarantee some diseased civil war ravaged 8 year old with one leg, didn't pick those flowers.

gem stones and the problems they create

[Fizzlewhiff]

Any gem of value is going to create the same kinds of situations which is making you lean away from diamonds. If she really wants one get her one. If you want to avoid feeling bad about supporting the cartels and the slavery then consider another market. Check with your family, grandparents would be great, to see if they have a ring or a stone you can use. I would think your fiance would really appreciate a family heirloom. Even if you end up with just a stone you can have it mounted in a new ring, perhaps even one you and she design yourselves. Find a local jeweler, not a huge chain in a mall, and you'll save some money even if you do buy something totally new.

"Conflict Diamonds" - Congressional Contact

[Embedded Geek]

My representative in congress is Ed Royce, who also happens to be the chairman of the House Committee on International Relations, Subcommittee on Africa. I went to D.C. a few years back to do the tourist thing and met with him for a few minutes (basically, shook his hand and got a snapshot). When I mentioned my concern about Conflict Diamonds and indicated I had seen a resolution he'd authored mentioned in the paper he was absolutely floored - he honestly thought no one in his district cared one way or the other. While I doubt he would have changed U.S. policy at my urging (and he can only steer policy for the House - not the Senate or [more importantly] the Dept. of State), he did indeed listen to me.

If you care about this issue, one way or the other, I suggest contacting Rep. Royce (above) or Susan E. Rice, Assistant Secretary for African Affairs (sorry - bio only - no contact info on that page) and let them know. I know that most people today tend to be cynical, the truth is that politicians do indeed listen to the people they represent - they have relections to worry about, if nothing else. That's how democracy works.

P.S. If you're going to D.C., make a point of visiting your representative and senator, even if only for the photo op. Their offices regularly get access and tours for constituents that travel to D.C. Also, the officials really do enjoy meeting with the people they represent. They don't get into that line of work unless they love pressing the flesh and meeting new people.

One word: liquidity

[IntelliTubbie]

If they have no resale value, they you could buy a used diamond very cheaply and get a jeweler to put it in a new setting for you, and that would kill the market for new diamonds. They don't wear out, of course. "Diamonds are forever" and all that.

The used diamond market isn't like the used car market, where the resale value drops as soon as you drive your shiny new Mustang off the lot. That is, it's not that market prices are low -- it's that there is no market. Because De Beers has created the impression that diamonds are priceless (if not in monetary value, then in sentimental value), almost no one sells their used diamonds. And because no one sells them, no one expects to buy them either. This has completely eliminated the secondary market for diamonds -- outside of shady outfits like pawn shops, which can hardly be considered bastions of "fair market value".

The total lack of liquidity in the used diamond market means that De Beers can continue to have complete control over prices. Why is stifling liquidity just as important as stifling competition? Look at what happened to hardware companies like Cisco when the Internet bubble burst. As if it weren't bad enough that Cisco lost customers, they found that prospective customers were buying cheap, lightly used hardware off the dot-bombs at fire sale prices instead of from Cisco. This is even more important for De Beers, since a diamond has a considerably longer usable life than a router. The moral of the story: if you want to sell your product to everyone at ridiculous prices, without screwing yourself in the future by saturating the market with resalable goods, then do exactly what De Beers has done.

Cheers,
IT

Re:One word: liquidity

[sckeener]

hog wash...

Ever hear of a pawn shop? or ebay?

Just make sure that if there is a engraving that it's something you can live with....

Re:One word: liquidity

[maiden_taiwan]

>almost no one sells their used diamonds

Not true. Entire businesses like this one make their living buying used diamonds. (Disclaimer: This is a commercial site. I know the owner. I have no financial stake in the business, except that I designed their web site.)

Bullock also has a short guide explaining why diamonds have low resale value.

Re:One word: liquidity

[Creepy]

funny - I was about to say the same thing.

Every pawn shop seems to have a rack of rings and a rack of guns.

I love America :)

Re:One word: liquidity

[Storm Damage]

Uh, that's not really the case these days. Sure diamonds are still a bit inflated due to their cultural status (which was and is largely manufactured by coordinated advertising and marketing efforts), but the article being referenced here was written in 1982. That's twenty years ago. In 1980, the price of a 1 carat diamond was over $60,000 (in 1980 dollars)! By 82, that rock had already shed 2/3 of its value. These days, a 1 carat diamond fetches around $5-6000 retail (if it's a really high-quality gem), but realistically you can get a 1-carat I/I1 clarity solitare ring on Ebay for well under $1000. Beautiful SI clarity in the .5 carat range, with additional smaller rocks as side-mounts are in that affordable price-range as well. If you adjust for inflation, the market depreciation for these rocks is truly staggering (something like a 97-98% loss).

The diamond market crash is old news. It's done. The fact is, even given the strong output of mining, there is still a lot of labor involved in producing diamond jewelry. It's estimated that you have to move 250 tons of diamond-bearing earth to retrieve 1 carat of polished, gem-quality rock. Then the stone has to be polished, cut, polished, examined, appraised, stored, marketed, shipped, stored again, appraised again, marketed again and sold at retail. That results in quite a bit of markup, but there is a wide enough demand for diamond jewelry to fuel this business and allow these companies to make a profit, and while it's quite a tidy sum, it's nothing like the rediculous markups they used to achieve.

Furthermore, contrary to your initial argument, the resale value does drop significantly when you walk out of the store with it. It always has. You've never been able to recapture the retail value of diamond jewelry by reselling it. Most jewelery retailers won't even talk to you about buying back used diamonds, leaving you to choose between exchanges which will offer slightly less than wholesale to you, pawn shops which won't even offer that, or newer secondary markets, like ebay, where you can probably capture something slightly higher than wholesale for it.

Divorce court

[Alien Being]

Hang around outside and see if you can find a cheap one with low miles on it.

Code Her a 64K Marrige Demo

[TibbonZero]

hehehe....

Code her a 20 minute long Marrige Demo (64K is the best of course), that proposes to her. Have wedding music (after a smooth rendition of your 'song') in the background, with awesome 3d graphics. Perhaps not all girls would appreciate that, but if you did it from scratch, then it would be a nice effort.

That being said, I don't know how my girlfriend would take that... probably ask if I got the lame idea from Taco or something...

Logic vs Feelings - Feelings always win. Buy it.

[DukeWellington]

She may understand your arguements, but deep down she'll never forgive you for forcing her to explain to her friends why she doesn't have a diamond everytime she shows off her ring (and she will!).

Everything is subjective, and the only thing that *counts* is perception and expectation. And her expectation (probably since she was five) has always been that she'll get married and be able to flaunt a beautiful diamond ring on her finger. And if you think your marriage will survive a beginning that includes destroying the dream that has defined her life to this point you're sadly mistaken :-)

As far as buying the ring is concerned, shop around for a good manufacturing jeweller. They typically do far better work than you'll get at a retailer, and at cheaper rates. You can even get a ring made to a design that she has chosen. (In the unlikely case that you live in New Zealand I can get a friend of mine - a genuine english master jeweler - to make it for you).

I can't comment on the resale value of diamonds, but there's no doubt about the resale value of *rings*. You'd sell the ring rather than the stones, although frankly why you'd be contemplating selling the ring or it's components at all is beyond me. My wifes engagement ring has gone up in value several times.

As far as the ethical side is concerned, if you scratch anything deep enough these days you'll find organised crime or commercial exploiters have some kind of finger in it. With diamonds there is (according to your figures) a 95% chance that yours will be from a nice happy mine with a great health plan. The shoes you're wearing are more likely to have been made by exploited labour. You can't go through life avoiding anything with ethical ambiguities in it because there are too many of them - you'd be dead in a month.

Don't bring ethics anywhere NEAR your wedding. They're hard enough to survive as it is (don't get me started).

If you don't love her enough to do this on a "benefit of the doubt" basis you shouldn't be getting married anyway.

Pick your battles, and know that this is one you can't win. Buy the diamond. Buy the biggest one you can afford. And give it to her *on your knees* in the most romantic place you can find (somewhere expensive). This is the one thing she will NEVER forget. Given time, she'll forget the details of the birth of your first child, she'll forget the first car you buy together, she'll forget your first apartment, but she'll NEVER forget how you proposed and what her wedding was like. And one day, when you're in deep do-do for some stupid mistake or comment you made, you'll be saying "Please honey - I'm sorry - forgive me" and she'll think back to her wedding and the guy she married THAT DAY and she'll look at her finger and make her decision. A diamond ring she's really proud of is the best investment you can make.

Have a great life.
Simon

simon.mahony at thorndancer.com

OT: Re:No rocks here...

[GlassUser]

Why do all these diamond sites have flash movies instead of web pages? I need information, not cheap entertainment.

The answer from The Simpsons

[space_geek]

Use monkeys instead! mmmmmmm... Mouth watering monkeys...

Simpsons Safari

There is the theory of the moebius...

[knobbie]

Two friends of mine got married last year, and instead of diamonds, they both gave each other identical rings. The rings were moebius strips, fashioned in silver. Very cool. They love them. The symbolism involved is also very cool. Two sides of the ring actually are one side, representing their coming together as one. Diamonds are superficial. If you really want to make her happy, I'm sure that some symbolic like this would mean much more than a simple diamond.

jamaica

[Suppafly]

Buy one in Jamaica, they are about 1/2 the price there.

If you ever want to get laid ever again....

[zerofoo]

Buy the diamond. Ethics shmethics...when your fiancee's friends see you didn't buy her a diamond you can be certain you won't be getting any for a very long time. Take my word for it. I am engaged and my fiancee told me she didn't want a big diamond...but I bought a big one anyway...and you know what? I've never heard her (or her friends) say anything negative about it.

And oh yes, I got some that night.

-ted

Experience...

[TV-SET]

I just got married last month. That is something to get a whole lot of experience from... Engagement preceeded the fact though.
This has nothing to do with diamonds (SFOF), but still funny. It was a big surprise to me that "every woman knows" that the price of cost of the engagement ring should be 3 times groom's salary, but not even half of those "every woman" know on the finger of which hand (in terms of left and right) to wear the engagement ring. Although, they are pretty comfortable with less expensive ring and Internet research for the question at hand :)

Just my to 0.2 euros.

Diamonds will be worthless due to synthetics

[IvyMike]

I have no doubt that within the next 30 years, you will be able to buy a flawless diamond the size of your head for about the same cost as a lump of coal. The techniques for synthesizing such diamonds would probably be there today if it weren't for the constant efforts of the DeBeers cartel to shut down all research on those fronts. But you can only slow down progress for so long, the state-of-the art is getting better (and cheaper) every day.

Don't believe it? It's happened before. Aluminum used to be a rare and exotic metal, until we discovered better extraction techniques. The top of the Washington Monument was supposed to be made out of aluminum, until it was stolen because the cost of aluminum was about equal to the price of silver! Of course now we throw alumnium cans away when we can't find a recycling bin.

The point is, of course, not that you shouldn't buy a diamond, it's just that you shouldn't expect its value (or rarity, or symbolism of your love, or "specialness", or whatever) to be lasting when we're probably going to be able to crank out diamonds for the same cost as class beads. Buy a small diamond for its (current but temporary) symbolic value, if anything.

Maybe if you laid off the midget porn....

[sup4hleet]

You'd talk to more women! :)

Best goddamn midget porn in town! [fuckporn.net]

Re:Maybe if you laid off the midget porn....

[MemeRot]

And they don't even have any goddam midget porn! They do have interesting contact email addresses though 'abuse@fuckporn.net', god does that sound twisted.

Agreed

[einhverfr]

But don't sacrifice meaning of the engagement ring in the process. Make sure that that makes it even more special.

Get the ring..

[setite]

You better get her the ring that she wants and keep your diamond market ethics & opinions out of it. Just opening your mouth erodes the the beauty a diamond would probably bring her. I completely agree with you 100%, but I have never told my wife. Israel & South Africa own the diamond industry.

Design Your Own (But Beware)

[nato10]

All women want to know that their man will go to great lengths for them. Since fire-breathing dragons are on the endangered species list, and most of us want to keep our ears attached to our heads, too many of women are convinced that we can only do this by forking over ungodly sums for rings that look like everyone elses.

Do what I did. Tell her you'll happily buy her whatever stone she wants, but that you think it would be cool to design your own rings. Sit down together, sketch out some ideas, take them to a local custom jewelry maker (your burg has at least a couple). Get his opinions on metal and stones, pay him to make a few sketches. Don't do this to be cheap; do this to create something unique you'll both like.

In our case, we ended up making three rings that stood on their own but fit together conceptually; earth (her wedding), sky (her engangement, with an amethyst for the sun), space (my wedding ... white gold with stars on one side and sort of a turbulent void theme on the other). Total cost: $450 nine years ago.

My wife has never had anyone comment on her lack of diamond; they are usually too taken with the distinctiveness of the rings and the story of their creation.

Two final words of advice:

First, don't have your ring sized in the hot, sweaty days of August. Mine was so hard getting off, I asked the jeweler to enlarge it slightly. By the time December rolled around, the thing was flying off my hand ever time I turned around.

Second, think twice about the ceremony if your wife wants an inscription that starts "One ring to rule him..."

hypocrisy?

[dkh]

Gee... heaven forbid you drop a few k on the woman you love for no other reason than it will make her happy. Hopefully for many years it will be something that brings fond thoughts to the surface when she looks at it. Perhaps long after you've joind the underground brigade in the cemetary.

"But look at the ethical and financial aspects of the issue" you say.

Yet many of you would think nothing of droping a few k on the latest and greatest gee whiz piece of electronics. Which may make you happy for a few months and then be worthless after a year or so if you are lucky and which will undoubtably end up in a landfill somewhere or littering the ground and poisoning the soil of some poor asian country for years and years.

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean its not meaningful to someone else.

There's nothing wrong with a little tradition now and then.

Marrige Quilt.... Odd but new idea..

[TibbonZero]

Ok, this may sound a bit odd (some would say queer, but...) I think a Marrige Quilt would be a great idea, if you know which end of a needle is the business end...

It would take alot of time, and thinking, and wouldn't be a 'money' thing, and it's something she can give her daughter some day.
Just make a quilt that has scenes that you needlepointed onto some of the squares about the years (hopefully years...) that you have spent together, leaving some blank, and one that's already titled "wedding".

It wouldn't be a terrible idea to get a small ring (I would just go with a Platitum one with a CZ or Saphire, but that's just me) and put in a small pocket for her to find, because her girlfriends will hate you if you don't get a ring at all (plus on the right finger it fends off other guys).
If you did the whole thing in secret (perhaps getting her mother or grandmother to help you; she would think it's sweet esp if it was her grandmother). You could even depicte it as a tree, with each of you as the root separate (with scenes of each of your earlier lives), and then together for a tree, and your relationship spreading out together...

Best of all, if you left the back side of it usable, then you could start a family tree (if you are going to have kids), that has her parents (she will love that), and you two at the bottom, and starts spreading out in squares with room for names, and other needle points.

Now this being said, I think that you would have to really learn a few things to do this, however- her, her mother, her aunts, and grandmothers would love you for this. And she would really like it that you learned something for her, instead of just plunking down 2 months pay (which to get you act like you work all day, when really reading ./ so basically you are giving her your time ./ing).

Good luck (I might try this one my girlfriend in some way, better start now... ) But really, if you are serious, this also gives you time to think over it, to make sure that you want it to be her, you can charge a Diamond in a minute at the store, but you can't make this instant.

mammalian mating rituals

[g4dget]

I'm afraid you don't understand mammalian mating rituals. The whole point is to waste money on something entirely useless--it indicates that you are sufficiently well-off to be able to afford this. If you bought something useful with the money, it would show that you have to worry about it. And if you don't buy it, maybe some intelligent, thinking woman will still marry you, but a good, evolutionarily successful mammalian female should really have serious doubts about you.

Just be happy that you are human and can spend money on something that's disposable and generally not harmful to your health. Other animals have to carry around their showy but wasteful investments--you might have to run around with antlers or other useless appendages. Yet others need to engage in dangerous combats (still popular with some backwards humans) in order to win the favors of a female.

Oh, get over it already.

[DavittJPotter]

OK, this will probably get either moderated as flamebait or a troll, but Jesus H. Christ on a crutch already. "You're financing TERRORISM!" has already gotten to be the most overused phrase by our lovely Dictator^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HGovernment since 11 September 2001. Please. Diamonds are a form of currency that cannot be tracked and controlled (as easily (at the moment)) by the Government and other powers that be. Next they'll eliminate cash, because "Unregistered Dollars can Fund Terrorism" and MUST BE STOPPED at all costs. *Sigh*

_Every_ item of value in the market has some pain or exploitation associated with it. I imagine the lovely monitor you're reading this on was probably built by someone in a 3rd world country who makes less in a year than you do in a day. Better give that up, sparky. Many, many items are made with extortion, force, or other "unsavory" methods. If they weren't, the prices of goods and services would rise dramatically - and then you'd cry about how much things cost, and how everyone should band together to topple the corporate cartels that impose such draconian methods as capitalism and free markets.

Wake up, people. Your ethics are only good when they fit your current needs and viewpoints.

/em end rant.

Re:Southern Revision?

[charon_on_acheron]

How about politically correct revision, which is flourishing nowadays?

You seem to ignore where black slaves used in the Southern US states came from. Africa. Not the coast of Africa, where it would be easy for white crews to catch them. They came from all across Africa, where white men dared not go. The Africans who were sold as slaves in the ports of Africa were usually prisoners of other Africans. When two tribes warred, the winners took the losers as slaves. When Europeans started showing up with gold, iron, cattle, glass, etc. to trade for the slaves of Africans, the slaves were sold to them for transport to America. Not the US, as it started long before the United States became a nation.

So, if you want to draw attention to the real cause of slavery in the US, look at the Africans who started the whole deal.

We buy diamonds *BECAUSE* they are worthless!

[rbook]

Actually, any economist could tell you men buy diamonds BECAUSE they are worthless, not in spite of that fact. Why? Buying something worthless to initiate a relationship is a way of demonstrating committment to the relationship.

Look at it this way: If you really want to be married to this woman, you value marrying her, and ought in principle to be willing to pay for the privilege. But, you want her to be committed to and value the relationship also, and if you pay her to get engaged or to marry you, you have no way of knowing she didn't just get engaged so she could "take the money and run."

So what do you do? You buy something really expensive that has no utility or intrinsic value, you give it to her (to prove you aren't going to resell it), and she can't "take the money and run" since diamonds are hard to resell and there is social pressure against reselling them anyway.

Basically, you are "burning money" to prove you value the marriage you are about to enter into. You do this to convince her you are serious, she needs to know you are serious since marrying someone who isn't serious is potentially costly in all sort of ways (emotionally, financially, time-wise, etc.).

True, there are only a few countries in which diamonds are used for engagements, but I bet most of the other societies have similar committment devices that also amount to "money-burning."

For more on this, see the book, Hidden Order: The Economics of Everyday Life by David D. Friedman (yes, son of the famous economist Milton Friedman). The book is available here and here with a table of contents, etc., here.

Re:We buy diamonds *BECAUSE* they are worthless!

[saskboy]

I think you have a point. Diamonds are not looked upon as good currency, other than in grey or black market situations. I have held the thought for many years that the only value a diamond ring has is in an emergency where a bribe is needed in a hurry. I wonder how many times a treasured diamond jewel has been used as currency to bribe an official or criminal in a matter of life or death for the diamond owner?

I don't intend on buying a diamond that costs an arm and a leg. My gf knows the value of investment, and having cash on hand to fix the dishwasher, before having another "shiny".

So if you don't pop her cherry, no ring?

[sup4hleet]

Since today a girl's viginity is just about worthless (in terms of dollars) and it's nowhere near as difficult to get married as a non-virgin. Just a thought.

Re:Opals are a bad idea. -- agreed

[eclectro]

They are not only fragile, but over time they absorb moisture from the air/surroundings and lose their sparkle. And as you said, they are prone to breakage because they are very soft. Any gemstone would be a better choice than an opal.

What is the right Question?

[einhverfr]

You are right-- it is the wrong question, but I don't think you are asking the right one either.

My advice-- don't focus on what you don't want to do. Let it rest for a while and stop worrying. Then focus on what you will do. Make sure that whatever the ring you give her is, that is is a worthy monument to your love.

In my mind the real question is-- how to immortalize your that moment. Forget all this "Buy a diamond" or "How could you buy a diamond" stuff and focus on what really matters. If after consideration you realize that it won't be the same without a diamond, then decide if it is worth buying a diamond. Otherwise use something else but make it special.

BTW, about this "it's what people expect" argument, don't buy that one either. People are not so disappointed with the unusual, just make sure it is magnificent. If you break people's expectations but get around the "that's a cop-out" arguments, then you will probably *impress* rather than disappoint.

But if you are that worried, you might want to get a diamond. But it is your life, your love, and your concience. And it is up to you to make that choice.

Re:What is the right Question?

[philipsblows]

If you are lucky enough to find a confident woman who has been waiting for just the right guy, not the right guy with all of the peer-pressured fantasy trimmings (ring, white wedding, picket fence, etc etc), then immortalizing the moment is definitely the idea (especially if it really does happen only once).

We hear about incredibly romantic proposals and odd weddings (skydiving, underwater, walmart, 7-11, etc) because those couples chose to buck tradition and do something that they would remember forever as opposed to something that everyone else does.

However, while those eccentric proposals and nuptials always get some attention, look at the facts. During a football game, on The Tonight Show, on Jerry or Oprah, or right here on Slashdot, nothing will get you more points in life than announcing to the world, possibly on one knee, likely with ring in hand, that the woman that everyone is looking at (or reading about) at that moment is the one you want to marry. That is a story that will be told and retold for the rest of your time together.

The ring is the common way to go, but it is the univeral symbol (in North America, anyway) for that immortalized event.

Re:What is the right Question?

[einhverfr]

The ring is the common way to go, but it is the univeral symbol (in North America, anyway) for that immortalized event.

I agree about the ring, BTW, but what about the diamond? One of the questions here is whether a ruby, sapphire, or emerald can work as well.

BTW, the ring has been a symbol of agreements, contracts, and troth at least since the Angles and Saxons arrived in Prydain (what we now call Britain), and probably goes back to the Migration-age Germanic peoples. And while the diamond has a long tradition of symbolism, it was not heavily romanticized until recently. Why not use a very large red spinel instead (many of the "rubies" in crowns turned out to be spinels)?

That being said, the gift of a tree mentioned somewhere in this discussion was a cook and monumental (litterally) gift. (BTW, the words tree and troth, hence betroth, share a comon indo-European root-- *deru meaning steadfast, or strong).

Re:cubic zirconia (kingsford charcoal)

[ergo98]

Hrmmm, I presume you haven't read Alton Brown's new book and contributed a question, as if you had you'd clearly know that Kingsford charcoal is made out of wood.

an alternative

[phriedom]

IF she is willing, why not try something like this or this but in a women's style and size of course. Titanium seems fitting to me because it is so strong and tarnish/corrosion resistant, as one wants their love to be.

I have not purchased anything from these vendors, so I can't endorse them specifically. We were pretty "traditional" when we got married, in that I spent an irrational amount of money and bought her one big ring with a large center diamond and several smaller ones that served as both her wedding and engagement ring. To date, other than the house which the bank owns anyways, her ring is the most valuable thing that we own, at least in replacement cost. For an anniversarry present though, I think I will get us matching titanium rings.

WTF

[ergo98]

For reasons unknown Slashdot is filtering underscores out of links, however that should be http://amazing_facts.tripod.com/kingsford.html

Emerald

[drkich]

A friend of ours went to buy his girlfriend an engagement ring, but she did not want a diamond. She wanted an emerald. One it is cheaper, and two she just liked them better.

Well anyway they went to a jewler and the saleslady practically shoved diamonds down their throats, even after telling her they did not want a diamond. She was like you can not get married without a diamond. Thankfully they went to a different jewler.

Talk to your girlfriend

[jsimon12]

Assuming you have already talked to her and explained to her how you feel and why and she understands then I would take her out and show her some nice Saphire rings, they were the traditional engagement ring until DeBeers got into the picture. And You can get a nice sized Saphire for the cost of a medium sized Diamond. And everyone will notice, cause she will have a good sized blue rock on her hand. If she isn't cool with it for the reasons you described dump her cause she is unreasonable.

My wife actually isn't a big diamon fan (for the social political reasons and the fact that colorless stones are kinda boring), she acutally hinted that she would prefer something other then a diamond, so I got her a nice saphire/platinium/with a couple small diamond bagettes on the side. Probaby the same cost as a single stone gold/diamond combo but I think it is money better spent and my wife loved it.

knock her up first -

[jafac]

stretch marks from pregnancy - now THAT lasts forever! :)

mirror

[lewis mctewis]

i'm happy to report that my wife and i bought our wedding rings (no distinct "engagement rings") for about $100 each a few weeks before we got married at the county building. i feel blessed that she isn't trapped by this peer pressure you all are talking about. i'm saddened for those of you who are trapped by this pointless tradition.

Who created the diamond frenzy?

[firippu]

quote:

"De Beers may be single-handedly responsible for promoting, in less than a century, Amercian, European, Japanese, and, increasingly, Chinese women to expect the "traditional" gift of a diamond engagment ring as a matter of right. "

Would you pay to seed the neighbor's lawn?

I felt the same--got her a sapphire

[Miles]

Sapphire on platinum looks fantastic. My wife loves it, and clearly, she said "yes".

Re: Diamonds - Are They Really Worth the Cost?

[DigiBoi]

Whats a girlfriend?

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Com2Kid]

If you like flowers so much, dont you think people/the-city should plant them around at various places - and then just leave them there???

Umm, yah, flowers that are given away are bought from nurseries, heh.

Well of course purning too, a goodly number of nice flowers that would otherwise be just thrown away can be given away instead. ^_^

Diamonds a guys worst enemy

[Nivla]

I found myself in the same predicament a few years ago before I got married. My solution... I bought her a cubic zirconia and never told her. They are just as pretty and sparkley, you get the same ohhs and ahhs. Only a jewler can really tell the difference and I got a nice 1.5 carat solitare for about 200 bucks. In my opinion it's the only way to go

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[gerf]

apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.
You've never had a girlfriend, have you?

Look, women think differently than men on some issues, but you disregard that point of view only at your great peril. So fucking what if sending flowers is stupid? If it makes your girl feel loved, well, mission accomplished

No, no no. Doing things for her constantly, on a daily basis shows your love for her. Not a little rock, no matter how symbolic it is. If she truly loves you for you, and not for money/looks/spending/ect, then she should understand your feelings, maybe comfort you a bit *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge,* and you'll be stronger for it. (yes, i have a g/f, and she loves me, even though i'm almost dirt poor, and her family has bling)

Re:Opals are a bad idea. -- agreed

[chill]

Unless, of course, she really, really wants an opal -- like my wife did.

Much cheaper than diamonds, too. Untill I was fool enough to educater her about Black Opal. God, that shit is expensive!

Wow! 900+ comments

[iotasmall]

Geeks are more interested in talking about $C_{12}$ after all.

Re:Opals are a bad idea. -- agreed

[atrus]

You're looking at an opal doublet, which is a piece of piece glued to some black rock. The glue softens and the stone gets clouded. Solid opals don't have this problem.

Dude, Trust Me...Get The Lady The Diamond

[Greyscale]

You're totally right to be reluctant to get screwed by the diamond industry...but the girl needs her diamond. Trust me on this. She may say she's cool without it, but don't believe. Get the diamond. The cash you spend will be compensated by the lady.

Re:Dude, Trust Me...Get The Lady The Diamond

[megacia]

you ask her if she wants it and the responce is "dude, you're getting a diamond!"

Sapphires of another color

[MrNovember]

You might try corundum (sapphire). They come in all sorts of neat colors (red=ruby, blue=sapphire). Bright green, yellow, hot pink, etc.

Diamond engagement rings are a recent (50 years or so) thing. Prior to that, garnets, rubys, and other stones were perfectly acceptable. You can buy a giant, beautiful corundum (though not ruby) for the price of a rather sad-looking diamond.

The other advantage of sapphire is that it's the second hardest gemstone (right behind diamonds). So it'll last her lifetime. Opals and emeralds are shitty stones to wear every day in a ring because they're soft and will disintegrate if whacked about too much.

Keep in mind you have to buy a larger carat size of sapphire than diamond because diamonds have a higher index of refraction so they can be cut thinner and show the same depth and sparkle.

My wife has had a nice yellow sapphire for a while since 6 months salary at the time would have been a wee chip of a diamond. People ask what it is and think it's great. It sparkles (though not as much as an expensive diamond) and is very unique.

Try poking around here; I haven't actually bought from them but they have nice gems and are highly rated as an Ebay seller. Most reputable places will let you order a bunch of stones and return the ones you didn't like.

Seriously, if you get your wife-to-be any kind of ring and she is disappointed, is she really the kind of woman you want to marry?

diamonds...

[dudeness]

the only reason that they cost so much to buy is because the companies who produce them restrict the supply. there are hundreds of thousands of surplus diamonds sitting in some warehouse right now.

Talk to her, ask her what she wants.

[DrBlake]

Take it from someone who has learned this the hard way: you have to be able to talk to each other about everything. If you cannot, you are bound to do things that she doesn't like and don't do things that she likes. You will also do potentially the right thing but at the wrong time.
Many women, my soon to be ex-wife included, thinks that if you do things because they (the woman) has asked for it, you don't mean it. That is of course bull but that's what they think. Its probably a remnant from childhood when Mom really did know what you wanted without you having to tell her and if she didn't, you soon liked what she did do for you, because it was her doing it.
Its part of growing up to be able to say what you want and recieve it without resentment. Some women, and I guess some men as well, never reaches that maturity or reaches it too late for their first love to enjoy it.

Free advice from

The good old doctor.

I was lucky

[rikkards]

My wife wasn't mindfucked by the DeBeers commercials (partly cause her mom worked in a jewelry store). Her ring came out to $400 CDN. She figured rather than blow all the money on an expensive ring put it towards the wedding and honeymoon.

Re:You'll regret it if you don't give it

[Binary Boy]

I'm sorry, but thats absolutely crap. My girlfriend and future wife told me that if I bought her a diamond our engagement is off. She researched the DeBeers story herself and decided that she'd no sooner wear such a product of war, rape, and poverty than she'd wear a depleted-uranium bullet on her finger.

Not all women are vapid, materialistic, diamond-whores. Find a smart one, problem solved.

Forbidden Planet - Robbie the Robot

[hedley]

Remember, Robbie can make diamonds, emeralds and with some difficulty, Star Sapphires.
Now, just find Robbie and you will get: a mover, a bodyguard, a cook, a stil, a gem maker, astrogator etc.

Hedley

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Com2Kid]

Except they're dead.

Depends, certian types of flowers can stay alive even after being cut, and can even thrive and take root!

Key is to choose your flowers wisely. :P

And besides if you cannot appreciate the texture of a flower's petal. . . bleh. Iccckkies, sad scary life!

Black Onxy

[rimhoffd]

My class ring is black onxy, if your a slashdot'er this stone should fit into your culture a little better than a dimond. :)

(troll?!)

RID

Another scenario

[catwh0re]

A friend of mine was having her second wedding, for the first, she did the usual all the relatives flown in from where-ever they are, big flowing white dress, diamond ring, etc, etc.

When that marriage finished, and life went on just for her to meet someone new and decide to do it all again, however she's done tradition, and she's certain that the relatives don't want to be bothered out every time someone decides to get a divorce and married again.

Her ring was a beautiful dark ruby, in white gold. Looking more like something you'd see in the lord of the rings.

After you forfill the tradition, you might as well go out and do everything your way, a ring you like (and doesn't look like your first) with the stone you really want on your finger, and not one that you chose because everyone else has been doing it for years and you may-look not so loved without a diamond.

The point being, she had a ring she enjoys, looks good, and by god it cost far more than her first [ring of diamond].

I felt the same

[Malc]

Hmmm, there are already over 500 comments, so I might not getting many eyeballs... but here goes anyway.

First of all, you've all heard how much you're supposed to spend on a ring. Well, guess what? That's just a figment of De Beers marketing that's some how become completely ingrained in society as the way it should. Very clever of them, eh? In the UK, it's one months salary, in N. America, two months, and in Japan 3 months (if I remember The Economist article from a few years ago correctly.)

My wife didn't actually like the idea of having two months worth of my salary on her finger... she was most comfortable with less than one month's (after taxes). Lucky me. Her ring is lovely to behold, yet it isn't impractically large, nor does it make her feel like she's going to be mugged everytime she goes anywhere.

I seriously looked around when I was buying. I even considered buying some from the Canadian shield area, mined by independent Canadian companies. They even had Polar Bears engraved on the "edge" of the diamond! These would have cost a couple of thousand more, but I would have felt a lot more ethical about it.

In the end, I went to a small independent goldsmith called John Brennan in Stratford Ontario. He was great! He made the ring to our design, and trotted back and forth to Toronto to get diamonds for use to choose from, and final appraisal, etc. I feel good that I supported the small local guy, and have some good memories to boot.

Another option that I considered, was going to a wholesaler of diamonds. This is much cheaper, but you really have to know what you're doing. I didn't feel that I could estimate the price of diamonds well enough to do this.

At the end of the day, there aren't many women who will be happy with something other than a diamond ring. Make sure you know how she feels, and *talk* to her about it. Don't try to convince her that your way is better, as it could come back to bite you later on. This is an exciting time for her (and you I hope), so don't piss on her parade too much. I know, it's a sad situation full of social pressures. You have to do your own thing, and what makes you both happy.

Buy the Diamond

[smack.addict]

What's a good substitute for diamonds? My girlfriend understands my thoughts regarding diamonds, but deep down, I'm sure she would like a diamond. Even a small one.

I think you have answered your own question. You are buying this gift for her to express your love. What matters is what she wants--your political sensitivities be damned.

Is the need for diamonds a manufactured demand? Yes. A few years ago, less than 5% of Japanese engagements involved rings. Today, after a concerted marketing effort by diamond companies, diamond rings are part of most engagements.

Manufactured desire or not, however, a diamond is what your girlfriend desires. Therefore a diamond is what you should buy her.

...diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch. They'll sell you the shit, but damn it, they're not taking it back at any price

Actually, this is not true. First, diamonds do have resale value. More important, however, you can find jewelers who will take back the diamonds. I got the ring for my wife from such a jeweler.

Resale?!

[Vinnie_333]

"diamonds have no resale value"

What does? It's funny, but nobody's willing to pay me full price for my used cars. Or my old PC, etc ...

Engagement rings shouldn't be resold if all goes well ... and if it doesn't ... well, then you got screwed by more than just the De Beers.

Diamonds - Are They Really Worth the Cost?

[Shrike9]

Fortunately for me, my wife doesn't care for diamonds. She does, however, absolutely adore pearls. Cheaper too!!

Re:McCartney, not Lennon

[alienmole]

Thanks. If I'd thought about it, I knew that! The sentiment of anti-diamond bit somehow seems more Lennonish...

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[MoneyT]

I dunno, I've seen some pretty big returns off a suprise half dozen flowers and a nice dinner. And I don't mean returns in the way of inanimate objects.

Heirloom

[rscrawford]

When I got engaged, I gave my wife-to-be a silver Hopi story ring that I had picked up in Cody, Wyoming. Later on, my mother mailed to me the enagement ring that my late father had given to her; and that his father had given to his mother; and the diamond in it had been my father's father's father's tie tack.

The best thing, in my opinion, is something of personal value instead of monetary value. My wife now tells me that she feels very connected to my family because of the heirloom diamond I gave her.

BUY PAWN.

[sinnergy]

To echo some of the comments made here, buy used! You should have a REPUTABLE (and I do mean reputable) pawn shop in your area that sells diamonds and settings second hand. I purchased a beautiful 3 diamond ring in 18K white gold for my fiance for about $2500. It's value? About $4500. Also, this pawn shop guarantees an added 10% additional value per year if she ever wants to trade up (why would she? ;). I didn't put any additional drain on the "new" diamon market, helped out the local economy and... here's the kicker (I hope), HOPEFULLY I helped out in some roundabout way some geek who maybe got dumped by his wife-to-be. ;)

Hey, who knows the history. I don't care. I bought my woman something that's pretty, not too extravagent and used. If your woman requires that her diamond be "new", remind her that they've been in the ground for who knows how many years already. Perhaps give her some printouts explaining how purchasing new diamonds is offensive to you for social and moral reasons.

Another final idea that's been posted here... ask a relative. Yeah, it's gauche, but tactfully talking to relatives might prove very beneficial. It might save YOU money while keeping an heirloom in the family. Needless to say, try to pick a good bride-to-be first so that the sentimental treasure isn't sullied by things like divorces. ;)

no way - that is why they are worth so much

[AssFace]

you want to give your girl a diamond for that exact reason.
they are so valuable because of all the people that get hurt or killed just to get them to you. it is an extreme honor for her to walk around with a symbol that showed that you were willing to go to great lengths and monetary devotion to ensure that people would be hurt and maimed for years all for her.
she is so worth it.

1000+ Comments! Great going guys.

[Camel Pilot]

Now the slashdot editors know what really ups the old hit counter.

From now on when things get slow we can expect articles such as:

1. What to do when she finds out it is zirconium.

2. O.K. I forgot her birthday what do I do now?

3. Ideas on how to say you love her for 20 bucks or less.

Re:1000+ Comments! Great going guys.

[iotasmall]

> ups the old hit counter

It's now getting near 2000. It's just so *ridiculous*. I gather that people primarily wanna to break the record. Be it the dollar value for a lump of $C_{12}$, or a hit counter.

I haven't been here long enough to see a 2000+ thread.

how about reconfiguring some family heirlooms?

[mooncake]

thanks to some kind donations, we were able to convert my grandmother's large diamond ring and my mother-in-law's ring with six small diamonds, into one mega-diamond-extravaganza engagement ring. my husband designed it himself, and got a jeweller to put it together. it was a very reasonably priced way to get some chunky ice on my finger, and all the relatives thought it was a lovely metaphor for the joining of two families.

Canadian diamonds and diamond geeks...

[gnguyen]

I would suggest looking into a Canadian diamond. They're more strict about labor and environmental laws up there and have less of that terrorist/military strife stuff going on. Also, you can avoid the DeBeers monopoly with some of the unique brands:

Ekati http://ekati.ca
EightStar http://www.eightstar.com

These two Canadian brands come at a premium though. There are others that are more modest.

One good place that diamond geeks talk a lot is http://diamondtalk.com.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[JacobO]

What city doesn't have flowers planted around it? None that I can think of. Not that I have a sample size worthy of statistical confidence.

Don't screw up champ.

[Deal-a-Neil]

Hey, if she's sold on the marketing, you better do what a good man has to do. Just hope that you can convince her that you're fueling child labor and wars in Africa and save the $10K (and buy a new 47" flat plasma that you can say you found on eBay for $200).

By the way, if the new Diamonique and Zirconias (sp?) are so hard to differentiate from the real thing, what are you waiting for? Save a child, stop a war, and be the envy of all geeks with your new monitor.

Do you want to get married or not?

[jcarley]

The whole process is expensive. Receptions are blown out of proportion. Rings are just part of the deal - and a big part.

Who cares if there is a resale market - you aren't likely to sell it anyway...

You will have to live with this decision for a long time. You sure you aren't just being a bit cheap?

Of course they're worth it

[SIGFPE]

It doesn't matter what diamonds cost. A diamond is a symbol that you have spent a certain amount of money. Asking that question is like asking whether a $1 is worth it. A $1 is worth $1 because everyone recognises it's worth that.

Unless you mean "is having a sparkly stone worth that money?". Don't ask silly questions.

Still, that said I bought my wife's ring through a brother of a friend who travels around the world collecting gems and who could negotiate directly with a wholesaler for me. It was like getting a $10 bill for $5.

Indeed

[dnoyeb]

I bought my wife a diamond. She was a fiend, what could I do? Then 6 months later when I bough my computer I tried to hide the fact that it cost more than the diamond...

Didn't want to fuel that whole "more time with the computer" thing you know ;)

Re:Indeed

[ScooterBill]

Hehe, I bought my fiance a diamond ring. She took it back and exchanged it for a sapphire that was about half the price...and NO you can't have her, she's mine! Ha!

Re:Indeed

[einhverfr]

She was a fiend, what could I do?

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer?

Not that I am at sure what you meant, but marrying a fiend does not sound very fun...

Re:Indeed

[n9hmg]

Place the word "sex" after the word "a", and you'll understand his meaning.

Our rings

[Fjord]

We got our rings at an estate jeweler, basically meaning they are all at least second hand. Not only were they super cheap, but being second hand don't have the full guilt of a new diamond.

Artificial supply manipulation...

[nedron]

Interestingly, the vast majority of gem grade diamonds never make it to market. They're warehoused to keep the cost of diamonds high. Otherwise, diamonds would be significantly cheaper than they are. This doesn't even include the tons of industrial grade diamonds that are stored in the former Soviet Union.

So, to answer your question. Are they worth (the price)? No. Does your girlfriend expect one? Probably, due to the massive marketing campaigns that you mentioned.

For more bang for the buck, look into colored gem stones. They are generally priced closer to what they are actually worth and, frankly, look nicer. Of course, the same ethical quandaries may apply.

There is...

[Istealmymusic]

...a 1:322 chance this post will be moderated. Let the dice roll.

Re: Canadians

[Amazing Quantum Man]

oh, and taking over Hollywood

No, that's a Good Thing(tm).

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Golias]

All you're really saying on Feb. 14 is "I got you these flowers because my television told me to." Any other day of the year, the message is "I was driving home from work when it hit me how much I love you, so I stopped off at the store and bought you some flowers."

That's why the whole flower thing equates so closely to the diamond discussion that started this thread. Flowers are bought on St. Valentine's Day because an expectation has been created.

Even so, I think that "here, I grew these for you" would be an even more romantic statement than either of the ones you mentioned.

Re:Lennon alternative - What about..

[stere0]

Lucy in the sky with diamonds? :)

Advocacy is needed!

[Sux2BU]

If we really want to change the culture and get rid of the diamond craze, we're going to have to do something about it. Not buying diamonds is a start, but we can do better. Why not start issuing anti-diamond propaganda? Make posters/webpages/etc associating DeBeers with the terrorist and other inhuman groups they support. Start negative terms for diamonds and culture around them. Start advocating diamond alternatives, showing them in a good light. Start showing other people anti-diamond websites, pictures, articles, etc. and let them know the reality of the diamond trade. Make people feel guilty about supporting DeBeers.

My point is that society is heavily influenced by language. If you don't believe me, take a look at advertising. To affect others, we need to use this to our advantage. This is what companies spend billions of dollars a year doing. That might seem like a lot to compete against, but it really isn't if enough people believe differently. The trick is to get people who believe in what you're trying to accomplish to help you advocate it.

Obviously, this grass roots approach is useful in other fights. Linux advocacy can really be influenced in this manner. The problem with Linux is that this advocacy is mostly kept inside the tech community. For example, many people outside of the tech industry see nothing wrong with running Outlook. If we start showing Outlook in a very negative light, less people would use it. The tricky part is not coming on too strongly or doing other things to make what you're fighting for look bad.

Re:Southern Revision?

[rodgerd]

Why yes, those mean old African positively forced slaves on the good ol' boys of the South. They wanted to stop, see, they never even wanted to start, but just like our fat friend suing the fast food industry, they were helpless!

Re:Southern Revision?

[Golias]

Excuse me, did I say the US started the slave business? Don't put words in my mouth. All I was saying is that apologists for the Old South keep making bullshit statements about how wonderful blacks had it back then, and it is both inaccurate and offensive.

The fact that it went on in Africa (and South America, and pretty much everywhere that colonial Empires reached) does not excuse the fact that we in America were one of the last countries to abolish the practice, because the cash-crop economy of the South relied on forced labor too much to ever accept the fact that it was an evil practice.

Hand me downs...

[grandpohbah]

I agree that buying a diamond would ultimately support some buisnesses that I would rather not support (De Beers), so when the time came for me to pledge loyalty to the world diamond cartel I called my Mom and explained my feelings to her and asked if I could give her diamond to my girl. After she called me the "cheepest son of a bitch ever" (her words, not mine), she admitted that she thought it would be a wonderful idea...

Wearing a bit bit of wealth just in case

[U96]

The only moral justification I've ever found for jewelry was that if ever there was some really dire emergency, perhaps having some bit of precious metal or diamond on your person could help in terms of being able to use it for a bribe or some other need.

Perhaps Schindler's List went to my head...

My wife got something better than a diamond... me!

[Eugene O'Neil]

My wife and I got married in the back yard of a justice of the peace with two plain silver wedding rings. The most expensive part of the wedding was taking everyone out to the 99 resteraunt after the ceremony. But despite these humble beginnings, our marriage has lasted longer than many I know of that cost hundreds or thousands of times as much. In fact, I find that it is often the most spectacular weddings that end in the most spectacular failures.

If your woman won't marry you without a big shiny rock to entice her, is she marrying you, or the diamond?

Give her a motorcycle

[jabster]

That's what my wife got in lieu of a diamond. :)

She was just fine with that.

--john

The Ultimate Substitute

[rockwood]

I agree with most of your post, in that a diamond is a time honored tradition. But remember that there are other ring-bearing traditions that go much deeper and far beyond the new fangled rocks.

My alternative will be stated in a moment, but first I want to give you a few things to think about.

1- Tradition is strongly rooted and if you search back far enough you will find 'True' time honored traditions of the heart.

2- Women love to feel unique. Currently most women accomplish this by getting the bigger diamond. Though there are other ways to separate them into a truely unique field of their own. Separating them entirely from everyone they know. And at an EXTREMELY low cost.

3- What is a time and time again statement from married women whose husbands go away with the boys. Or leave on business trips??? Will they take off their ring? What if you could absolutely prove to her you wouldn't?

4- Couple with #3, what if it was your true love that showed her you were true to her and would never stray?

Answer: A puzzle ring.

These rings consist of many bands, ranging from 4 bands, to as many as 8 (I've seen as many as 12, but they are rare.)

These bands come in gold, silver and many different designs. The makers of these rings can usually customize them and possible add diamond chips (for appeal) if you wish. The are inexpensive, in the area of $100 to $250 each for gold, and even cheaper if you choose silver. I'm sure they come in white gold also.

These rings have quite a history dating back (from what I found) to midevil times. The ring consisting of bands that interlock to form the ring. But remove the ring and the ring falls apart. The come with no instruction and are very difficult to reassemble. The more bands that you have, the more complicated it becomes.

When I suggested these to my girlfriend (prior proposal) she was overwhelmingly pleased that I would even suggest such a thing. That I would willingly want to put somethign on my hand that I couldn't take off in the heat of the moment or at a glance of a pretty woman coming my way., Though I reassure you, that I wouldn't anyway, I truely love her, but the extra notion of dedication was purifying to the occasion.

And as I said, ALL of her friend and co-workers are jealous, more over that their husbands wouldn't dare where that type of ring.

Wrong or right.. I made the correct choice.

Here is an example of the rings.. I simply seached E-bay, but I am sure there are other avenues to follow in order to purchase such rings. The sellers on e-bay often advertise that they custom make these ring.. and size and many styles.

Happy shopping and good luck with a life time of happiness to both of you!

Example at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item =949361336

Re:Southern Revision?

[RockyJSquirel]

When two tribes warred, the winners took the losers as slaves ... if you want to draw attention to the real cause of slavery in the US, look at the Africans who started the whole deal.

There's a simple cognitive mistake behind all bigotry and all apologies for bigotry. I think I can clear this up with an equally simple argument:

No matter where a slave came from an "African" who was sent over on a slave ship is not the same "African" who enslaved him.

The slaver who captured him committed a crime against humanity doing so. The person who was captured was a victim, whether that person was an innocent or guilty of committing crimes in his own life.

As, for the culpability of the Americans involved in the slave trade, anyone involved was obviously fully culpable. How can it make any moral difference whether you caught a free human being a made him or her a slave or if you paid someone else who did it for you?

No one was ever forced to buy a slave, so the fact that there were some African slaver owners willing to sell slaves in no way excuses any American buyers.

The Americans weren't buying African slaves in order to set the free after all.

Instead of fighting the world wide slave trade, they supported and participated in it, so they were as morally culpable as anyone else involved.

The basis of all bigotry is the cognitive mistake of not thinking of people as individuals.

Why not take your argument further and not think of anyone as a individual; then your argument could be, "the human race is guilty of many crimes including slavery therefore all humans deserve to be slaves."

Rocky J. Squirrel

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[borgasm]

Flowers are the best short-term investment you can make with a woman.

Every week, I buy my girlfriend a tiger lily. She absolutely loves it, and it makes her room look nice.

Flowers are gold. Buy them on a regular basis.

Note: Go to a flower shop across campus (assuming you are in college), and walk back to her room with a rose in your hand. You will attract more women than you ever thought possible. And think, they know that you are taken, and they are still interested.

Advice from a /. chick!

[TrinSF]

Yes, I'm one of those few mythic creatures, a ./ poster with no Y chromosome. Though I'm not that chick-identified, here's some advice from the girl point of view:

1. Even the most progressive feminist can sometimes be profoundly cliche'd when thinking about marriage. Our society teaches and reinforces strong ideas and imagery around weddings and marriage from a very early age -- heterosexual women are steeped in cultural tradition around marriage. It's hard to fight decades of "this is every girl's dream".

2. If she wants a diamond, get her a diamond. Don't make her spend the next 50 years of her life looking down at her hand and thinking, "Instead of a diamond ring, I got a symbol of his political and social stance."

3. If you don't want to support new diamond sales, consider estate jewelry. For a reasonable price, you can buy a ring that has a sense of history to it, that is a beautiful thing, and is less charged with the modern baggage. For that matter, an estate jewelry specialist can also help you make the choice. Talk to a pro! Explain you want something beautiful and unique, that you want to spend X dollars, etc.

4. If you decide not to go with the diamond, give your bride-to-be *positive* language around your choice. Don't get her a different kind of ring because you don't like the social ramifications of diamond mining -- get her a different kind of ring because you don't feel a run-of-the mill diamond ring accurately reflects the special and unique qualities in her and in your relationship.

5. Don't use not getting a diamond as an excuse to skimp on the cost. Buying a 300.00 ring instead of a 3000.00 ring 'because diamonds are tainted with the blood of workers' says you were looking for an excuse to be cheap. It's not about the money, but it's not just the thought that counts, either.

6. Size *does* matter, but it cuts both ways. Dicks *and* diamonds can both be tooooo big.

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[Ziviyr]

Yes, I'm one of those few mythic creatures, a ./ poster with no Y chromosome.

Are you also one of the huge crowd of XXers that have a plot on LiveJournal.com? :-)

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[Darkling-MHCN]

In summary....

Dude...
By her a diamond or you're screwed !!

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[Darkling-MHCN]

P.S I hope like hell for your sake your girlfriend isn't the only other chick on this planet who reads /. besides trin here...

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[greggman]

Since you are a chick,...

What about the idea that it's not MY money. If we are going to get married then it really is OUR money or OUR debt.

I had this experience. As it happened I got a engaged just about the time I got a bonus. Before I met her my plan was to pay off my credit card debt with that bonus. Instead I bought her the ring. So, she got the ring but she also got no spending money for several months while WE paid it off.

I can't say we would still be together if I had not bought the ring but I can say we would have gone out to dinner and other activities alot more if we had had the money instead of the ring.

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[TrinSF]

Well, I take a traditional view of the engagement ring. From an etiquette standpoint, if the man calls off the engagement, the woman gets to keep the ring -- unless it's a family heirloom, in which case it's muddier territory. Historically, this gave the woman a kind of monetary escrow in case she got err, screwed. (There's also a history of British women during the 1800's filing legal suit against men who broke off engagements, too.)

This was much more important before women gained more rights and a foothold in the work world. If my financial future is linked to marriage and my fiance' diminishes my value to the marriage market, I should be entitled to recoup some of that lost value.

There's also the matter of buying the ring *before* you ask. I mean, if you don't know that she's going to agree to marry you, you can't very well assume that she's going to want to go halfsies on a ring she isn't going to accept, can you?

So, I side pretty much with the traditional idea that engagement rings should be purchased by the partner proposing, and should not be considered a "joint purchase".

That said, I'm also *for* prenuptial agreements. Particularly in community property states, I think it's insane to get married without a prenup.

Of course, people who know me personally find my weighing in on this whole matter amusing, given that I'm known for "Trin's Law" on Marriage:

Trin's Law: Never get married. If you love someone enough to marry them, you love them enough to *not* marry them.

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[TrinSF]

Yeah. See also same login. OH, I only talk about tomatoes and sewing there, though. I'm fucking obsessed with my tomatoes. *grin*

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[deblau]

I felt I had to reply. Apologies in advance, because I'm a hardass.

1. Even the most progressive feminist can sometimes be profoundly cliche'd when thinking about marriage. Our society teaches and reinforces strong ideas and imagery around weddings and marriage from a very early age -- heterosexual women are steeped in cultural tradition around marriage. It's hard to fight decades of "this is every girl's dream".

Yes, yes it is hard, but that doesn't mean the fight isn't worth making. I for one am sorry that the "progressive feminists" as you call them are still so materialistic. I would be much more happy if they would preach mutual love and respect, regardless of how big his wallet or his dick are. And I do think it's a shame society is so stereotyped. Cliches and stereotypes are easy excuses for not observing and thinking for yourself. (Yes, I know stereotypes have psychological protective value, but we're talking about marriage here, a situation in which we've gone way beyond casual contact.)

2. If she wants a diamond, get her a diamond. Don't make her spend the next 50 years of her life looking down at her hand and thinking, "Instead of a diamond ring, I got a symbol of his political and social stance."

I want a Lexus sport coupe. Get me one. Or 50 years from now, I'll be thinking, "all I got was a lousy Geo Metro".

Do I deserve a car, or ring, or anything else because we're getting married? Do I really deserve anything more than love, respect, and honesty? Have I somehow earned something more? What have I paid for it, what have I put into the relationship that demands more than what I'm already getting? I think the real question to be asking here is, "Why do I need this ring? What does it mean?" Think about that, and let me know what your answer is. (BTW, I don't consider spending money for its own sake a worthwhile reason. I consider it flamboyant, vain, and ultimately destructive.)

And frankly, if the love of my life got me a present based on her political stance, then considering the fact that I was planning on marrying this woman, and that I must already be happy with her views, I would be deeply honored.

3. If you don't want to support new diamond sales, consider estate jewelry. For a reasonable price, you can buy a ring that has a sense of history to it, that is a beautiful thing, and is less charged with the modern baggage. For that matter, an estate jewelry specialist can also help you make the choice. Talk to a pro! Explain you want something beautiful and unique, that you want to spend X dollars, etc.

If you decide to go down this road, then I applaud the creativity of this suggestion.

4. If you decide not to go with the diamond, give your bride-to-be *positive* language around your choice. Don't get her a different kind of ring because you don't like the social ramifications of diamond mining -- get her a different kind of ring because you don't feel a run-of-the mill diamond ring accurately reflects the special and unique qualities in her and in your relationship.

Positive language is important. But please don't tell me how to feel, or what I may like or dislike, or by what reasons I am allowed to act. No one has that right.

5. Don't use not getting a diamond as an excuse to skimp on the cost. Buying a 300.00 ring instead of a 3000.00 ring 'because diamonds are tainted with the blood of workers' says you were looking for an excuse to be cheap. It's not about the money, but it's not just the thought that counts, either.

When I buy something, I trade my money, the exchange for the fruits of my labor, for the fruits of someone else's. The amount I'm willing to pay depends on how much value I think I'm getting from the transaction. What value am I getting from this purchase?

Furthermore, I don't put a price-tag on emotions, since they are no one's to buy or sell. My love for any woman isn't worth $300, $3000, or $3,000,000. It's priceless, because it's mine, and mine alone. And if it's not the thought that counts, is it the money? Is it the prestige? If I spent the aforementioned $3,000,000 on a diamond ring, would the woman I gave it to love me any more than if I spent $300? If so, she's no one I'd want to marry.

6. Size *does* matter, but it cuts both ways. Dicks *and* diamonds can both be tooooo big.

Agreed, on both counts.

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[deblau]

The problem with all your arguements is that the women hold all the cards. Men need/want to get laid and if they have to buy diamonds for this to happen, they *will* do it.

Heh, the problem with /your/ argument is that men can get laid any time they want, and it doesn't require diamonds. Sure, it can get expensive real quick, but I don't think women "hold all the cards" as you say. If you don't know where to go, I'll get you directions. :)

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[nagora]

You are either joking or a worthless piece of shit; I can't decide from your post but I'm wavering towards the former on the grounds that no one could be that much of a whore!

TWW

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[TrinSF]

Eh, I don't think you're that much of a hardass -- but then again, I'm a stone bitch, myself. I think I address the financial concerns in another post in this thread; basically, I feel like if you're going to be "traditional" in choosing a ring, then treat it like the traditional escrow item it is. (I noticed this evening that there are some etiquette guides that suggest that the ring should always be return to the giver, but it's not the norm.) I think it's very modern of us to talk about money in negative terms with regard to marriage; for most of human history, marriage has been a decidedly financial event that had little to do with emotions at all. Even through the turn of the 20th century, marriage was still approached very explicitly as a largely financial transaction between two families -- misrepresenting one's financial situation could result in the engagement being called off.

I'm all for exchanging plastic gumball machine rings in an informal ceremony on the beach, wearing birks and jeans, if you're into that marriage thing. My position is that if you're going to do something because it's traditional, well, by all means, treat it as traditional. *smile*

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[deblau]

Thank goodness, a voice of reason in the wilderness! I was going to suggest that the ring be returned, as you did, but I didn't want some irate feminist to learn my home address and stone me. To me, marriage still is a financial transaction, but due to the increased standards of living these days, it may not be as important to the biological survival instincts of the bride that the groom present a dowry to the bride's father, a wedding ring to the bride, etc. I would hope that there could be more to marriage now than just survival, like perhaps an emotional attachment. Given the range of mating partners today's technology (like cars) has allowed us, I think that asking for love in a relationship is not unreasonable.

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[balthan]

I find it sad that a guy is trying to weigh his political stance and resale value against a gift and his girlfriend's feelings. But then again this is /.

I find it said that women use emotional blackmail against the ethical concerns of some guys.

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[pirula]

Agreed. Though I'm not the "chick-idenitified" either I did find myself dropping several less-than-subtle hints about diamonds when my boyfriend and I starting talking about marriage. Honestly though, I was more concerned with the meaning than the rock. "Diamonds are Forever" is one of the marketing slogans ever -- if you want to avaoid diamonds make sure that you are able to replace that meaning somehow. Heirloom stones - like your grammas emeralds, or designing/making the ring yourself (yes there are places that let you do that!) are pretty good tactics. It made me happy to know that my boyfriend spend so much time and energy (if not money) creating a ring just for me.

Re:Advice from a /. chick!

[Ziviyr]

I'd throw you an anonymous hello there but its disabled.

I've found the best way to keep privacy is to avoid using terms in one place that can search out the others. Kudos to the person who hunts down my semi-sloppy trail of usenet posts.

Using different usernames in different places is one key element of that, though it ties in with my domain and from there its not excruciatingly hard I don't imagine.

The spam flood hasn't been bad, only when virii are harvesting email addresses does it get really annoying. And there is one or two virus laden slashdotters out there I think.

Feel free to reply through my email, now that I can't see a number (46), my karma isn't that exciting any more, but I still like it and this is one of the few cases a -1 offtopic would be accurate.

Seen Return of the Killer Tomatos yet? :-)

Best Form of Carbon

[Geckoman]

IANAC (I Am Not A Chemist), but...

According to a friend's chemistry professor, diamonds are a rip-off anyway. The crystaline structure of the carbon atoms in diamonds isn't the most stable form of carbon. Apparently, diamonds aren't really "forever," they're only for a few billion years. Now graphite, on the other hand, now that's forever! (Or at least a lot closer!)

So buy her some pencil lead, and maybe one of those cool, high-dollar mechanical pencils to go with it!

(Disclaimer: I assume no responsibility for any bodily harm that may result from following this advice. I, myself, am happily married, and if you tell my wife I said this, I'll deny it.)

Re:Best Form of Carbon

[Bremen24601]

Just to clarify, diamond is not the most stable form of carbon at 1 atmosphere and room temperature. At higher temperature/pressures it is more stable (otherwise it wouldn't freakin' form ;0)

Anyway, your friend would be correct, under normal conditions diamonds will eventually turn into carbon (of course there's just the small detail of taking a short eternity to happen).

Anyway, I'm not sure (I'm too lazy to look it up, if its even in any of the reference materials to begin with) but Buckyballs may be the most stable form of carbon. The molecular structure is almost as strong as diamond as well. Which would be why carbon nanotubes would actually be feasible to build a space elevator btw (hrm, wonder if that means diamond would work as well... *shudder* thats all we need, DeBeers owning the moon!)

Re:Best Form of Carbon

[Bremen24601]

ack, that should read "diamonds will eventually turn into graphite", carbon turning into carbon is not exactly groundbreaking stuff.

Re:Best Form of Carbon

[Rich0]

Yes - that lump of charcoal made out of graphite is so much more stable than a comparable lump of diamond... Nothing burns like diamond, right?

I am a chemist, although I admit that I don't specialize in the allotropes of carbon. My understanding is that diamond is in fact the most stable form of carbon - at any temperature and pressure. However, it is chemically slow to form under these conditions. This is the classic example of a reaction which is kinetically controlled, rather than thermodynamically controlled. Eventually, graphite should turn into diamond even at room temperature, but you aren't going to witness it in your lifetime.

As far as buckeyballs go - I do not know their exact relative stability, but their structure is closer to that of graphite than it is to diamond (just take a sheet of graphite and bend it into a globe).

Picture graphite on one side of mount everest, and diamond on the other, in a ditch about 10 feet lower. Sure, diamond is more stable, but you have to climb mount everest to get there.

Pre-Owned Stones

[kc0dxh]

I went with a pre-owned stone and had it set in a new ring. No blood money, no ethical issues. But beware, older stones may have a cut that's a bit too steep; and they need to be polished/cleaned.

5 years and no complaints.

Sam Kineson Re: Diamonds

[Tsuki311]

Sam once said. Its not the rock, its the PAIN you went through getting it!

Re:Put the ethical burden on *her*

[SunPin]

You're trying to marry your cousin?

Titanium

[Nonesuch]

Titanium seems fitting to me because it is so strong and tarnish/corrosion resistant, as one wants their love to be.

Another major advantage of titanium, it is much less likely to cause an allergic reaction than other jewelry metals. The worst offender is nickel, found in most gold (with the exception of 24-carat aka "pure" gold) and many other alloys.

One drawback to Titanium -- it shows scratches more readily than other metals. This was discussed to death in the thread a few months back about titanium wristwatches.

"Are they worth the cost"

[deblau]

That is a personal question which you and you alone have to answer. My own response to this question is "no". Let me explain.

Whenever I buy anything, I always ask the question "What value (emotional or material) am I getting for my money?" I have never found a suitable answer to that question. Here are some of the answers, and why I disagree with them:

• "I'll stop nagging". Sorry, no dice here. I judge value by positives, by gains, not by lack of anything (nagging, etc). Anyone can tear down a building, but it takes a special man, an architect, to dream of building it in the first place. I give no heed to emotional vandals.
• "Buy this ring or I won't love you". Still no. Love is an emotion that derives from mutual respect (as opposed to lust, which is somewhat quicker to come by). You can't buy love, you can only earn it. This line is a good indication she already doesn't love you, and she's just gold-digging.
• "It will make me happy". Yeah, this is a tough one. Unfortunately, I live my life for myself, and I ask no man to go out of his way to help me. Similarly, I don't give my time and effort to others without some return consideration. You may call me cruel, but I hold the same moral and emotional standards and I do economic standards. Happiness is cheap (a walk on the beach, a trip to a rose garden), why should I spend two months' salary on something which can be had for free?
• "All my friends have them". As a previous poster noted, you're not marrying her friends, and neither is she. If her friends judge worth by the number of things they possess, that's her problem, not yours. If her friends judge worth by intelligence, they already know she's got them beat, and they're just jealous.

My conclusion is that there is nothing intrinsically valuable about diamonds, and for that reason, they are not worth the having.

Ebay didn't exist in 1982. . .

[dfnr2]

Check Ebay, and you will see that several diamond wholesalers (apparently including Empire, mentioned in the article) are selling diamonds directly, creating more of a true free market. After all, if bidder #1 can pay $x for a diamond on Ebay, so will bidder #2.

Although diamonds appear NOT to be a time-honored tradition, they are (like a fancy wedding) a social norm, and undoing that will require a lot of new ads, or a very understanding spouse. Why not check out Ebay. Be sure to use Escrow & right of return, and have it appraised.

Re:Oral sex... and Penguins

[lowe0]

Great. Just what we need... overclocked blowjobs.

It's all about her

[Nylathotep]

1) Its what she wants, and no matter what you feel, if that really what she wants then you should give it to her. Otherwise you're starting the marriage off with disappointment.

2) If you worry you're supporting blood deeds, then buy a used ring. Any pawn shop will have a selection at least the size of the local jeweler. After all Publishers complain used books dont pay rolalties, and neither do used rings.

3) The ring is a MAJOR factor as to how her girlfriends regard her and you. Get something other than a diamond and watch the polite compliments coming in. Every person she meets from then on will judge her by that ring.

4) If buying a ring at a pawn shop seems to impersonal, you can always buy one, have the stone removed and placed into a new setting.

5) Dont cheap out, in theory she will have to wear the thing for the rest of her life.

6) Since you're not going to surprise her with the ring than you might as well take her shopping for one. Dont buy it with her but learn the style she wants, that way you dont buy her some ugly white elephant of a ring that she's stuck with for life.

Very simple

[Wouter Van Hemel]

This is very simple. Give her one of these $5 ethnic things -possibly something that has a special meaning somehow, something deeper-, and promise her your heart. All the rest is bullshit, and your love ain't nobody else's business.

If she needs expensive juwelery to be with you, you're headed nowhere anyway. The best way to show you love her is by loving her, instead of making up your deficiencies with money.

No matter how much tradition this is, this is just as much sexistic bullshit as 'woman at home taking care of kids'. This day and age you don't have to show your wealth, for all I know, she makes more money than you... Might just as well give her some cattle, not...

Don't get me wrong - it's very important to show your love, but I just don't see how a cold piece of glass makes you a better lover.

But, -my usual disclaimer-, I (and therefore my girlfriend too) am totally leftish and I tend to wipe my ass with toilet paper that has social conventions written on it.

:-P

By the way...

[El]

Natural Emeralds are much more rare than natural diamonds -- and yet they cost half as much! This alone is proof of the sheer genius of the DeBeers marketing machine.

Gemesis -- man-made diamonds.

[JoeGee]

Gemesis makes gem-quality synthetic diamonds. Knowing your objections to the way natural diamonds come to market, this may be a suitable alternative.

Canadian diamonds!

[F1_Fan]

No slave labour there just hard working people making a good wage.

I watched this documentary about a girl who graduated as a geologist and the first thing she does is go out and find the largest diamond deposit in Canada.

I think they said she's worth $13 billion. Ouch!

You got the point, but I disagree still

[einhverfr]

It has 100% to do with society. and in this society when a girl is engaged all her friends will be asking to see her hand. The bigger/better the rock the more status it represents.

You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, IMO, you were using a crescent wrench... You are right-- it is about society.

Look, I was the only Quaker in my class in central Utah when I was growing up. I know all about being different. I can tell you that people have two reactions-- they are either facinated with the difference or they are repulsed. They tend to be more fascinated as they grow up too...

So, while you are right in all your points, I think the deeper issue is still, does it have to be a diamond? I think the answer is no, but personally, there I think people will notice the ring more if it is NOT what they expect but at least as magnificent. But here are some issues that need to be addressed:

1: Diamonds have come to be a symbol of permanence. This actually goes back to Roman times (thought they put their diamonds into the gold, and didn't show them off). However, there are plenty of other things that could suffice (titanium for example, or ruby).

2: Societal expectations-- quick advice, ignore this one. People tend to look twice when they are surprised. Just make sure you exceed their expectations elsewhere.

3: Cheap image. People think of diamonds as being the epitomy of wealth. So, if your ring costs at least as much as you would exect to pay for a diamond one, this goes out the window....

Here are some good reasons to break with tradition:
1: Uniqueness. If the ring is especially beautiful and unique, it will be more special, I think.
2: Personality. Diamonds are pretty, but I think they are also somewhat bland. personally I like them as supporting stones, but not as main stones.

Materialistic women...

[kcbrown]

Materialistic women need to get with reality and stop the pretentious b.s.

Uh, I hate to burst your bubble, people, but being materialistic, particularly as regards to selection of men, is evolutionarily very advantageous for women.

Think about it. Take two women, one who is materialistic and one who isn't. The materialistic success of a potential partner doesn't matter to the non-materialistic woman, but does to the materialistic one. So the woman who is materialistic is more likely to end up partnering with a guy who is materially successful than the woman who isn't.

End result? The materialistic woman is more likely to end up with offspring who are more capable of being materially successful than non-materialistic woman and, on top of that, the offspring of the materialistic woman will be better provided for.

Material success is strongly tied to the ability to provide for a family. The more materially successful you are, the greater the resources you have at your disposal to provide well for your offspring. The better you can provide for your offspring, the greater their chances of survival. The better their ability to provide for themselves (i.e., to inherit your success traits), the greater their chances of survival and reproduction. And the odds of survival and reproduction are the only things that matter in evolutionary terms.

So if you were to start with those two women and look at their extended family many generations later, you'll probably find that the materialistic woman has more descendants and that those descendants are materially better off, on average, than the descendants of the non-materialistic woman.

Eventually, the materialistic types will dominate the population. Which, I think, is exactly the situation we see today. And it's no coincidence that those greedy types happen to be the most successful, as well. Why else do you think greedy entities like Microsoft, the RIAA, etc., are all so powerful and successful? It's because they're run by people who are also greedy and materialistic -- the very trait which enables them to succeed.

There is more truth than you can imagine in the phrase "nice guys finish last". You can thank evolution for it.

Re:Materialistic women...

[tigga]

Materialistic women often do not have children, because it's just too expensive in terms of time and money of course.

Re:Materialistic women...

[kcbrown]

Materialistic women often do not have children, because it's just too expensive in terms of time and money of course.

Perhaps. But even if that's true, is it generally true? Or specific only to women in the U.S.? And is their rate of childbirth less than the average of the society they live in?

Re:Materialistic women...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're fond of the word 'probably', huh?

Materialistic people are more successful on the chart of... materialism. No shit Sherlock.

I hear people who train hard can run faster and people who study harder pass more tests. Wow!

I also hear that people who value happiness and overall wellbeing over materialist possessions live longer, get less heart desease, have less miscarraiges, and have less mongey kids - do a newscientist.com search if you subscribe - its all in there.

There is a HUGE difference between materialism and evolutionary competitiveness. Justify your greed this way if you must - but don't lie to yourself!

Re:Materialistic women...

[kcbrown]

You're fond of the word 'probably', huh?

We're talking about evolution. Evolution is a statistical process. So of course I'm going to use terms like "probably" to describe evolutionary effects.

Materialistic people are more successful on the chart of... materialism. No shit Sherlock.

You apparently didn't get my point: materialistic people are more successful at providing for their families, which is something that requires physical resources.

There is a HUGE difference between materialism and evolutionary competitiveness.

Think so, huh?

I think we'd better get some facts out of the way first. One of them is that there are various degrees of materialism, ranging from none (wherein you don't give a crap about having any material possessions whatsoever) to extreme (wherein the only thing that matters is what you have and what you can acquire). Most people are, of course, somewhere in between.

Now, it should be quite obvious that in evolutionary terms, the extremes aren't going to do as well as the middle, because people at the extremes have to compromise other things in order to be there. But if you have to pit the two extremes against each other, I'd say that the ultra-materialist is more likely to be evolutionarily successful than the non-materialist, and I think the people who run companies like Microsoft and organizations like the RIAA are excellent examples of that.

Materialism is just a trait like many others. There's as much difference between materialism and evolutionary competitiveness as there is between physical fitness and evolutionary competitiveness. Each brings certain advantages to the table.

But don't fool yourself into thinking that materialism has no effect on evolutionary competitiveness. You'd be an idiot if you thought that, for the reasons I described previously, namely that the greater a person's materialism, the greater the amount of effort they will put into acquiring wealth (in the general case), and while there isn't a linear relationship between effort and results, there is a relationship. You don't acquire the means to provide for your family by sitting around on your ass all day long wishing for those means to find you. It takes effort, and the greater your materialistic drive the more willing you will be to expend the necessary effort, and thus the more successful you are likely to be, and thus the more successful your offspring who inherit your drive are likely to be.

I agree about the benefits of valuing happiness and overall wellbeing over materialist possessions. It's the philosophy I subscribe to myself (I only want those items that will enable me to do the things I enjoy). But I'm not idealistic enough to believe that my philosophy is more successful in an evolutionary sense. The real world has taught me repeatedly that such idealism is usually rewarded with pain.

Re:Materialistic women...

[sk8tr]

You are making a HUGE assumption.
Materialism is a genetic trait?
Laziness is a genetic trait?

The poster is spouting bullshit all over this forum.

Re:Materialistic women...

[sckeener]

of course there is a downside to evolutionary materialism, what was needed to achieve material success in the past is not guaranteed to achieve it in the future.

Now I wonder what happens if someone today can not achieve material succes, depression????

Re:Materialistic women...

[zbuffered]

I think you're confusing materialism with success. Certainly, successful parents will be able to teach their offspring the skills of their success, and possibly provide directly for their children, insuring their success. But materialism is fundamentally different.
Buying diamond rings doesn't make you more able to provide, saving does. The 19" rims on your Audi may make you more attractive to materialistic women, but so what? It's so much more complicated than just stuff = sex. Women who demand diamond rings aren't doing their kids, or their kids' kids, a favor.
I see your point, and it's valid in general, but not here specifically. Evolutionary advantage is gained by security. Security, for some, is obtained through material posessions. But that does not put materialistic people at an advantage, it puts secure people at an advantage. There's much more to security than materialism, and the most materialistic people, are, imo, the least secure.

Re:Materialistic women...

[FlemLion]

But all of the above off course neglects the third option.

Think about it, the only thing that is evolutionarily advantageous, are the things that have an impact on the offspring. And does the materialistic property of the woman have an impact on that ??
Sure, but a negative one. Namely: all the resources she gobbles up, aren't available for the offspring. Apart maybe from a grandson being able to use one of her rings again two generations later as an engagement ring.

Could it be that the savvy are on top in this ranking ? It looks like it at least. It looks like the materialisticly savvy are on top. Those that know when and for what to spend money. That don't waste it on silly extravaganzas, but that have the resources and know on what they should spend it.

I know plenty of people with a higher income that are investing a lot less in their offspring than people earning less than half of them.

So, go for it evolution: Savvy on top !!

It sounds like you need to buy it. Too bad.

[Ymerej]

Jeez-lou-fucking-eez. It sounds like you are in the kind of social circle where that kind of thing is really important. You're probably going to spend a lot on the wedding and honeymoon, too. You go, boy. When my wife and I got married about 14 years ago, we were poor college students. My wife didn't want an engagement ring of any type. She had just returned from three years of volunteering in Burkina Faso. The idea of wearing something worth many years of a person's earnings on her finger was very unappealing. And yeah, we were cheap. Our entire wedding cost $1500. Then, we went on a 101 day honeymoon which cost $30 per day, total. You can have a life without spending a lot of money. By the way, I don't believe anyone ever mentioned the lack of a ring or rock.

sapphires are nice and so are tension settings.

[tuttle]

I got my fiance a sapphire and she loves it. Most blue sapphires come from Sri Lanka, which are called Ceylon sapphires. Some of the other colors like yellow may come from the US though.

One thing to note about sapphires is that they're denser than diamonds and you'll need a greater carot size to fill the same space.

Another interesting idea is to get a tension setting. Instead of having the gem attached to a few strands of metal. The gem is actually squeezed very tighly between two parts of the band. There are only a few manufacters of this style, I purchased a Gelin & Abaci
one thing to note is that the jeweler can't set the stone ... it has to be set at the manufacturer.

Re:sapphires are nice and so are tension settings.

[forevermore]

When I got engaged (just got married on the 27th), I decided not to go with a diamond for many of the same reasons as the main poster. My (now) wife and I decided on a sapphire ring, with a few channel-set diamonds (to at least have a little of the so-called tradition). But instead of a dug-out-of-the-ground sapphire (which has many of the same problems that a diamond does), we got one made by Chatham - it cost about $400 and is equivalent to about a $10k "real" sapphire. The only difference? a little bit of spectrography (no matter what any jewellry store person will tell you, a good manufactured gem is identical to the "real" ones unless you have extra tools to test with).

The other problem with getting a non-standard gem is that a lot of jewellers won't help you (even that warehouse place with the "factory in the store" wouldn't change a setting for me). We ran across Talisman and they were more than happy to do all kinds of custom stuff (they did my wedding ring, too) and they don't charge extra for custom work, which is amazing. They were a bit flakey with my wedding ring, but their workmanship more than makes up for the difference. (I had to go for a blue diamond in mine because of the setting - no matter what you do, you can't get anything else to shine like a diamond).

Anyway, I love the fact that my wife's blue stone shines much more vibrantly (as in, you notice it right away amid the diamonds in the ring) than a mere diamond. The geek in me can't get enough of the fact that the stone was grown in an oven (or in the case of my blue diamond, was blasted by radiation until it turned blue), and the environmentalist in me is happy that no more huge holes were dug in the ground to get it.

diamonds may not be forever, but they are close...

[fattybob]

Whatever the marketing says, from a scientific point of view, diamonds realy are pretty cool. A well cut diamond coupled with its refractive index (sorry don't have a value there!!) make for great internal reflections (ie sparkle / fire), and its cubic crystalline structure and hardness (useful for writing on glass) give it many edges over all other stones, topped in my mind perhaps by the massively understated appearance of Platinum (makes diamonds look cheap!). My wifes other interest lies oin the many from of Corundum, not quite as hard as diamond, but harder than most othere things on earth.
A diamond is as close on this earth to something that truly is forever, and as such, (marketing or not) is a great symbol of love. They are not the be all and end all of true love, but I sure bought one, and when it was lost somehwere in the US, I was not particularly upset - it was a lot of money, but we had a different 'real' engagement ring that has no stones, just some kinetic bits and is very uncomfortable to wear.

So, go ahead enjoy that beatiful pice of carbon, but if you realy want it to look great, check out the cut - Lazare have the perfect cut patented I think - cost (add 10-20% more!!!!)

Oh, and if someone in Seattle has found (lost about 3+ yrs ago) a 1 Ct flawless diamond on a very odd sideways setting with a ring cast with my finger prints, then I would love to have it back, just for the ring - it can only ever be ours, we would certainly be grateful $$$$$.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[shawb]

One of my biology TAs put it the best. "Here. Have a plant's reproductive organs... on a stick." I mean, what better way of showing why you really love her?

Or....

[xenocide2]

Rather than trust a gut feeling, ASK HER!!!!!

A bit different...

[acalford]

When I got engaged to my wife, I wanted to give her a special ring for her engagement. I found out that she had her mother's engagement ring, but three of the diamonds (there were five total) had been removed. Two were in a pair of ear studs she'd had made years ago; the other was in a pendant she'd given a niece.

I had the stones removed from the ear studs and put back in. I then took the diamond out of a ring that my father had worn and had given to me when he passed away and used it to replace the last one. So in a way, I gave her a ring that was part of her family, and mine.

Maybe not much help to you, but I was happy.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[SEWilco]

"honeymoon in Arkansas"

You're going to go to Crater of Diamonds State Park in Arkansas and hunt for your own diamond? Digging tools for rent, and park staff will tell you if you have a diamond.

You're getting married.......

[wetmondo]

Save the battles for the things that really count like what night you get to go out with the boys to get beers or who owns the remote.

This one is a loser. Get her the diamond, and save the political discourse on someone you can win with.

This sort of says it for me....

[Grell]

diamond sales

And I used to sell/buy diamonds (Pawn industry) and Nothing loses value as fast.

(about 3 bucks a point for an okay quality stone, so 1 carat 300 bucks, hows that for ROI?)

^_^

Grell

What about the oil crisis?

[T.Hobbes]

The oil producers want the money and they'll keep selling it no matter what. No matter whether it's Iraq in control or Kuwait, we'll get our oil.

The oil crises of the 70s seem to contradict this. Considering the degree to which the US economy relies on cheap oil, it is conceivable that the US would (and has) gone to war over oil. In the case of the gulf war, If Iraq had kept Kuwait, it would have had double its previous slice of the piped-oil supply. Its likely and probable that the US did go to war over oil in that case.

Question

[fdawg]

Wait, you mean geeks have girlfriends? Damn, I got it all wrong. I thought geeks married their computers and made love to their network connections.

Damn, you're a lucky man

[sulli]

I look forward to having a girlfriend like that. Until recently I would definitely have been caught up in the GetMeARockNOW plan, but next time .. I plan on remembering your story.

Diamond are not forever

[minh7749]

Diamond decay... they do..albeit slowly. In a hundred million years, the diamond will turn into vapor.

Re:McCartney, not Lennon

[ShavenYak]

The cheesy mindlessness of it is undeniably McCartney though. It makes you think for two seconds if you're really shallow, less than that if you're over the age of 12.

Five Years?!?

[HoldmyCauls]

That's how long it's going to take me to have sex once I finally get a girlfriend, have a long-term relationship, and plan a wedding?!?

No wonder I'm going grey already!

Lucky Me...

[EWillieL]

Not only do I have a wonderful fiancee, but she prefers the old Irish tradition. She wears a claddagh, a ring with two hands holding a heart and a crown. Most Irish girls get one well before engagement, worn with the heart out and the crown towards their wrist to indicate their availability.

When they get engaged, they flip the ring over, with the crown out and the heart pointed in to indicate they're taken. And the best part is, no diamond ever leaves the ground for the deal!

My honey also insisted that if she was going to wear a ring, so must I. So, I have a silver Celtic* knot band on my left ring finger.

* That's /'kel-tik/ -- I don't care if you *are* from Boston!

3 rings of love...

[mansa]

Gentlemen and ladies,

Here are the 3 rings of love:

First, the engagement ring.
Next, is the wedding ring.
Last is the suffer-ring.

bah dump bump! :D

Birth Stones..

[Tenaka Kahn]

My Fiance's engagement ring is is a silver ring with three blue topazs.

It's still "showy", but almost 70% cheaper than the same sized/designed silver & diamond ring.

The fact that it was her birth stone and she knew I made the special effort to get it offset that it wasn't a diamond.

However, the real ring must be real, and to quote "I don't care if it's a flake, it's gotta be real."

Re: drug use and terrorism

[Night Goat]

You know, I think about that every time I clear a tube, and it brings a huge smile to my face. Hooray for the DEA!

Synthetics killed other gems

[Animats]

Linde Chemical developed synthetic star sapphires (the Linde Star) in the 1960s, and totally trashed the sapphire market. You can now buy sapphire and ruby bar stock. Used for lasers, semiconductors, and the occasional bearing.

Most industrial diamonds (over 90%) are synthetic and cheap. Most are used for diamond-coated saw blades. These are used for grunt work like cutting concrete, and are a common, expendable tool.

Titanium is probably out...

[Allen Varney]

Just before our wedding, I was looking at wedding rings with my fiancee. The jeweler had a new line of titanium rings with an inlaid band of rose gold. I thought these were the coolest possible choice: symbolically durable, practically lightweight, fashionably high-tech. And I, at least, thought them pretty.

She shot down that idea like a wounded bustard. Still calls me weird for even considering it.

I'm giving her my mom's old engagement ring. Has a diamond (sigh).

I wasn't goint to post...

[surfcow]

... but it just pissed me off too much.

I suggest you take he same ... whatever 6 thousand dollars and put it in a trust fund in your joint name.

She won't like it? Ash her if she'd like an extra $45,000 when she retires. That's what a 6 grand will be worth in 30 years at 7%. (Could easily be more if you invest wisely.)

Alternately, ask her if she would like her children to go to harvard or a tech school.

Ask her if she would rather live in a house or a trailer.

The two of you should be deciding what is meaningful, not a multi-billion dollar advertising (brainwashing) campaign.

And, yes, for the record, I have a girlfriend and we may well get married sometime. We will likely pick out an antique ring or a nice colored stone (saphire, etc) somewhere. I am find of a simple, clean, gold band. But I will NOT have a huge bon-fire of cash just to impress Mrs. Grundy across the street. Mrs. Grundy has been BRAIN-WASHED and should probably be pitied, but not indulged.

Mod me down, I don't care.

It isn't time-honored either.

[RonVNX]

The idea that diamonds are a time-honored tradition is nonsense also. Many of my grandparents generation wouldn't have dreamed of pissing away money on diamonds. We're talking the 1940's here. This obsession with diamonds is a very new thing, it's just people seem to wallow in their ignorance of even the recent past.

I Agree With This Post

[sulli]

If someone leaves you because, and only because, you don't buy her a diamond ring - she's done you a huge favor.

Blood diamonds, indeed. Mod this guy up.

[xtal]

This poster is absolutely correct. I had no idea what a "conflict diamond" was, but I certainly know the history of blood diamonds.

If she wants a diamond, get her a diamond, and don't be cheap about it.

Could try Moissanite

[gothmogged]

Professional jewelers using man made carbon crystal.

Fulfills the "rock on her finger" requirement. Thereby solving the "admiring friends" dilemma.

Indistinguishable from high quality diamond. Which makes it higher in quality than the commercial grade stuff in the usual engagement ring case. Which means the actual rock looks better.

Prices are a lot more reasonable so you're not wasting cash on something worth 1/100th what you're spending.

No slave labor, smugglers, or terrorists were involved.

All that and you avoid being robbed by a conglomerate to perpetuate misery.

Here's a URL for ya.
http://www.moissanite.com/

And hey, they're not the only game in town. Several other man made carbon crystal makers were mentioned in this thread. So competition will be working for you to maximize the value.

We Gave Celtic

[Ferretman]

Garnets and gold, that is. Gorgeous rings; lovely wyfe designed them herself.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Nhoderis]

Personally I tend to believe that the thought behind a gift is what determines its value.

Yes, an unexpected gift at an unexpected moment has its thrills...

but if my guy put some thought into my valentines gift... its just as good. *grin*

However, if its obvious that he bought it at walmart the night before because it happens to be 24-hour then it's value decreases draumatically because he didnt take the time to plan the gift.

Not Scarce

[LowellPorter]

Diamonds are not scarce. The only reason they're considered valuable is because the diamond / jewelry companies have conviced people that diamonds are rare should be kept. Diamonds are actually quite abundant. If people treated them as such, the prices would drop dramatically and make them more affordable.

You have no choice

[topham]

You have no choice.

Really, you don't.

First, if you girlfriend did not want a Diamon then you'd be in good standing. She would be willing to explain to everyone why her ring doesn't have a diamond, etc.

But, since you think she wants a diamond she will NOT being willing to explain it all the time. It will be a source of conflict in your relationship.
It won't even necessarily be obvious, but it will be there. No matter what she says.

Forever.

Re:You have no choice

[reflector]

That's a pretty good point, but I wouldn't necessarily say forever. Ideally, after being exposed to someone (no pun intended) who has a high ethical standard, if there is communication going on in the relationship, she would begin to understand that having some kind of material goods is not always responsible, when taking those goods causes suffering for others. Hopefully she would learn and grow. And hopefully, she would engage in self-examination. Why does she want a diamond ring? "Because that's how everyone else does it" is not a very good answer. Neither is "because the DeBeers commercial said I should get one".

Re:You have no choice

[topham]

See, the problem is, your applying logic to this. You cannot apply logic to women, or love.

And I said forever because the relationship is supposed to last, you aren't going to debate the source of diamonds for 50 years with your other half.

But you can make decisions which are acceptable (in my opinion).

Me, If I were to buy a diamond ring would probably buy Canadian diamonds. On the other hand my gf has specificly told me she does not want a diamond. Not for ethical reasons, but because everybody else has them...

I mean, this whole conversation is summed up as follows:

You want her. She wants a diamond to signify your love. You don't care about the diamond. But she sees it as a symbol of something. Respect it, change it, or comply with it.

And you aren't likely to change it over night, and you are likely to look cheap doing it.

Solution!!

[brad3378]

so the rule is,
You're supposed to spend 2 months of income on a ring.

Here's my fix:
Pretend that you got laid of from your job.
Go buy yourself a Burger King uniform and tell her you're now only earning $6 / hour instead of $40.

40-6=36
$36*40 hours * 8 weeks = $11,520 in savings to spend on laptops and stuff.

If you get caught, DO NOT take her up on her offer to have you appologize on the Jerry Springer show.

Re:Solution!!

[brad3378]

you caught me.
My excuse: It was really friggin late. :-)

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Nhoderis]

Some girls happen to like cut flowers... they are fun to dry and save.... therefore cut flowers are not useless. Also buying someone a flower plant also gives them work to do... what if they dont have room for a plant, or time to maintain it? These kind of things are unique to each girl... and its upto the guy to figure out what the girl's preference is. Personally I Love to receive flowers...

Oh fuck off!!

[ellem]

Do you think the fucking topaz miners are doing any better?

Just buy the fucking diamond and shut up you whiny bitch.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Nhoderis]

oh... so you're saying that you would never arrange them in your yard either.. as a yard ornament?

Saphire

[Real_Mce]

As I understand it in many other countries including GB it is far more common to give a saphire ring than a diamond.

Social norms and reality.

[seebs]

To a certain extent, it's like showing up for an interview in "nice clothes", or any of a million other social niceties; it's not that the action is useful in and of itself, it's that it shows your willingness to act in a potentially inconvenient way to meet an external standard.

That said, the answer to your question is "No."

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[TheWickedKingJeremy]

Umm, yah, flowers that are given away are bought from nurseries, heh.

Heheh yes yes I know... :) I still dont get it though... I feel the same way about Christmas trees. They, too, are "farmed" but it still feels weird cutting down a beautiful tree and putting it in a living room for a few weeks until it dies... Just feels so wasteful to me... I believe Marla in the "Fight Club" movie said it better (not to mention a lot more harsh) ;)

Someone loved it intensely for one day, and then tossed it. Like a Christmas tree. So special. Then, bam, it's on the side of the road. Tinsel still clinging to it. Like a sex crime victim. Underwear inside out. Bound with electrical tape.

Sometimes I just think people lose sight that things are much more beautiful in a natural setting as opposed to an artificial one (e.g. Xmas tree, the rose garden, a tiger in a cage at the zoo, etc) Ok ok I have officially taken this silly conversation too far... though it does fit in quite nicely with the parent topic. ;) Its late - need sleepy.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[einhverfr]

You acutally have a really good point.

In many cultures flowers have been a symbol of love precicely because they are what perpetuates the cycle of life. For that matter so are fruit (though here the fertility metaphore is more obvious).

Lets face it. Most of this is a language of symbols and analogies anyway. So diamonds are hard, durable, and flashy. There are other things too that are hard, durable, and flashy. The emotion may be slightly different,just make sure it says what you want it to.

I swear-- most /.'ers must have so many problems in their love life that they are totally afraid of the woman's reaction.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Nhoderis]

They are still interested because you're taken. It's the old paradox no that is not the reason, they are interested because they wish that they had a guy who brought them flowers

Re:wrong

[einhverfr]

Actually, a lot of them come from Ecuador, (but that is mostly true in Europe, I suppose).

The drug trade would not exist if it didn't fund itself. However, many of the third-world rose factories have pretty abominable conditions. But this is different because the market is not so tightly controlled. As the economy develops (which it can with the tourism money going into many of these countries), it will be harder to find workers that will put up with those conditions. (That is why I am starting a business promoting tourism to Ecuador, Brazil, etc. write if you want more info).

Diamonds for $8.80!

[pongo000]

Well, you gotta dig for them yourself (leave the squeeze behind and save $4.40), but think of the money and sleep you'll save!

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Nhoderis]

Ooh, that sounds like fun!! That would be soo awesome. hehe :o)

A Man, A Plan...

[miraj31415]

While it is true that diamonds are a rip-off, they are a VERY sentimental rip-off. What hardDiamond's honey wants and needs is an expensive show of hardDiamond's sentimentality/devotion to her (to show her friends). May I suggest the following:

1) Talk to her again. Find out the 2nd-best thing to a diamond -- an emerald, a 2-week trip to Panama in 5-star hotels, a new car, etc (not pencils) -- something that really is HER that shows YOUR devotion and sentimentality.

2) (Since she already knows your feelings the following won't be a surprise -- she'll probably know where it is going.) Tell her that you simply don't feel comfortable buying a diamond (if she doesn't like it, remember, you are trying to reach a compromise -- and in a marriage almost nothing should be uncompromisable).

3) You and her (mostly her) pick out a cubic zirconia and fixture that will serve the purpose of show-off-ability.

4) Give her your actual sentimental gift, but beyond what she could have expected. You have to pull this off perfectly, or the next step will be quite bitter.

5) Give her ring on bended knee. If she appreciated your other gift, she might feel a bit silly at this point. If she didn't really like it... well, you didn't like diamonds, did you?

6) You yourself act super-poor for a while (so that everybody thinks you went overboard with both a diamond and the other gift).

-- ALTERNATIVE PLAN --

Same as above, but secretly get her a small diamond to be presented in step #5, to show how you are willing to compromise (make sure she realizes that it is not the cubic zirconia that she picked out). If you don't spend too much on step #3 (and she is pissed), she'll forgive you.

You've got much to learn

[tutal]

Ok gals don't kill me for saying this. But if I've learned one thing about women, especially those who we date/get engaged to/have married, it is that logic and reason does not always drive their desires. That is the case my friend with diamonds. To us guys (who are ruled by logic, not emotion or other forces) a diamond seems like an aweful waste of valuable cash. Even for a cheap ring (about $1k) you could get some pretty useful tools, or fun toys. Seemingly the only value of a diamond is its sparkle and the thought behind it. I guess it is the same as flowers, to us guys it doesn't make sense, but to my fiance, a bunch of dead plants means the world if I give her a nice boquet for no reason. So buck up, save up, and dish out, no amount of political correctness or reason could replace a ring for your love. Trust me, even the most expensive ring pales in comparison to the value of your relationship, so make her day and get something that sparkles.

Java Ring

[rlp]

Obviously, you should get her a Java Ring. They just released a new version that not only incorporates a Java Virtual Machine, but has 134 KB of space for downloaded programs. If she still wants a diamond, simply point out that a diamond can't do an RSA calculation in under one second.

Not all diamonds have blood on them...

[Boone^]

If you go with a local jeweler (not one in the megamall, the one on main street) they'll let you know who their source is, and 9 out of 10 times they'll let you know how their source gets the diamonds. Yes there's only a few mines, and yes they're hotly contested (with AK-47's and such) but there are diamonds that you can buy that don't come with blood on them. You just have to know your jeweler, and their source.

The Story of Diamond

[levin]

Diamond (aka, coal) has no real value whatsoever. It's rarity is entirely artificial. While gold is elemental and rare-unless of course you do some funky chemistry-diamond is just crystalized carbon atoms. Actually, sand is probably more useful since it is easier to work with (already granular) and it is also a strong crystal (silicon). There is plenty of diamond already and plenty of diamond to be made, all you need is carbon-which we aren't running out of anytime soon-and a few million years. Diamonds sell for so much because after westerners strip-mined Africa for its gold, they found a crapload of this carbon crystal that looked kinda neat but didn't really do anything. So, lacking any more gold to steal, they got women intersted in it and made it into a fortune. In all fairness, if someone tried the same stunt today they'd probably get their asses sued off by some government somewhere, but nobody does anything new because loosing the diamond industry would hurt any economy, no matter how you cut it (no pun intended), and nobody in office wants to do anything that would make it look like they were hurting the economy.

Re:McCartney, not Lennon

[alienmole]

Funny, I was just thinking how maybe McCartney wasn't the total pop airhead I always thought he was... Nah, I must be wrong!

Still, there is a kind of genius in being able to consistently create those "cheesy mindless" songs. The Beach Boys and Brian Wilson come to mind. If he hadn't teamed up with McCartney, Lennon might not have received nearly as much exposure. (Then again, maybe he'd still be alive...)

Go for somethging else that is expensive

[Craigj0]

Get her a ring with a big hunk of Germanium on it. It's just as expensive + rare, unique and she'll know you put a lot of effort into getting it.

And if that fails steal some moon rock and use that instead.

CZ Baby!!

[natet]

All I can say is that I am glad my wife was a pratical person and was ok with having a CZ instead of a "real" diamond!

get a bigger dick?

[mydigitalself]

emuff said?
*sigh* - jet lag.

Diamonds? Bah! They look like glass.

[Symphony Girl]

I have always thought diamonds were a colossal bore. They look like glass or at best, cubic zirconia. I wanted (and got) a sapphire. My husband has an equal loathing for gold-colored metal. He really wanted titanium, but at the time we couldn't find anyone who worked in that metal. So we compromised on white gold. While everyone thought it was pretty strange at the time, I have since read that sapphires are the #2 engagement ring stone.

However, if she really wants diamonds, you can always seek out a good quality antique and have a new setting made. At least in that case, the miners are long dead and you aren't putting currently living humans at risk.

Sapphires Instead

[marcilr]

In the grand scheme of things diamonds are pretty boring gemstones with the majority cut as generic brilliants. Consider sapphires instead. I spent a year mining sapphires in Australia and really liked the golden yellows, grassy greens, and parti colors (stones with multiple colors often blue, green, yellow). Sapphires are actually a lot rarer than diamonds, rank 9 on the hardness scale, and make great gemstones.

Now for the bad news... If you didn't know it or suspect it already diamonds, sapphires, and just about all gemstones in retail stores are are grossly over-priced small crappy stones. A decent rough sapphire, short of flawless rubies and truly phenomenal material, usually cost anywhere from $5-15 a caret rough. So you buy a 10 caret stone (~$100), have it cut in Thailand for a few cents a caret (bad advice), loose about 2/3 (the average) and wind up with a 3 caret cut stone. In the US this stone could go for anywhere from $300-$800 a caret or $900-$2400 retail.

The trick is too buy directly from miners. They are typically starving, will cut you a good deal, and really appreciate non-taxable cash. Rubyvale and Sapphire Queensland, Tanzania, and Uganda are relatively good safe places to do this. Have the stones cut by a reputeable local faceter and pay someone to fabricate a ring to match. I guarantee you'll wind up with a piece of jewelry a heck of lot nicer than whats in the shops.

The "3 C's" are a marketing gimmick. Heres some more concrete advice... When buying cut gemstones be sure to look at them outside in the sunshine. This is important! Bad light hides flaws and distorts the true color of the stone. Make sure has good color (that you like). It should be clear and *bright*. Make sure the stone has sharp meets, ie where the facets come togethor. Determine this with a 10x loupe or magnifier. If the meets don't meet is was cut for crap (most are). The bottom of the stone should reflect light like a sea of mirrors. If it doesn't or you can see through the bottom it was cut at the wrong angle, is too shallow, or is crappy material. A good stone looks good, accept nothing less. If there is anything suspicious or strange about the stone or dealer don't buy - they are trying to rip off.

Short of being a gemologist with a well equipped lab there is no way for you to determine if a stone is synthetic. Certificates don't mean shit. Buy stones you *like* not for investment. You are bound for dissappointment otherwise.

Pink /Purple=Sleaze Free

[aebrain]

As mentioned here, if the diamond's pink or purple, it's almost certainly from the Argyle diamond pipe in Australia. There's a nice picture of one at the 247k site.

Actually, the odds of getting a sleaze-free coloured diamond are reasonably good. Quote from the 247 site:

Each year almost half of the world's total diamond production comes from Argyle making Australia the largest diamond exporting country and the only commercial source of these miraculous coloured stones.

As for Argyle being sleaze-free, a quote from the mine owner, Rio Tinto.

The entire diamond recovery operation is controlled by state of the art computer technology. In particular, ingenious x-ray technology identifies the diamonds and removes them from the concentrated ore.Argyle markets all its gem and industrial quality diamonds independently through its own sales office in Antwerp, Belgium.

So no slave labour or De Beers sleaze. Whether the price is a rip-off is another matter.

I had to buy her a diamond ring...

[mykey2k]

...because if I did not, I would not been able to wear my jewelry when we went out together.

We came to an agreement, though. My total carat weight has to be less than hers. Luckily she has more than the rings.

It pays to have jewelers in the Family.

-m

I like Saphires

[jhiv]

When I got engaged twelve years ago (married nine months later) I bought a very pretty emerald-cut saphire (with small diamond bagettes). My wife loved it, and even now she has comments on how pretty her ring is. The wedding bad was alternating saphires and diamonds, like an "eternity band".
These days, I might replace the diamonds with amathyist, which make a nice contrast to the the sapphire.

Paul will help us all!

[EvilStein]

Anybody remember Paul, from the Diamond Center? He'll get you the best price and the best financing in town!

See? Nothing to worry about. :-)

One way to lower the cost of the rock...

[frank_adrian314159]

... is to buy a smaller, but better quality, diamond and then work with your jeweler to design a nice ring. You can also start with a multi-stone setting holding one smaller diamond and other. less expensive, stones. Then as you become more financially well off, replace the other stones with diamonds and use the original stones in neclaces, earrings, etc. I started with a setting holding a 2C diamond and four small topaz, and over the years have turned this into a ring holding the original diamond, two 1 C. diamonds and two 0.5C diamonds. the original and replacement stones went into two topaz pendants, two ruby earrings and two topaz earrings. Of course, the wife didn't mind me absconding with the ring for a couple of weeks before her birthday and was gracious about not having a clue what I was getting her :-).

The other thing to do is to work with a small local jeweler, rather than a big chain. Your stones will generally be of higher quality and they usually want your repeat business so they'll try to get you a good deal. They're also even more appreciative in these troubled economic times.

Good luck with the shopping and the engagement...

A vintage ring won't bear a "blood diamond"

[geoswan]

Your great-grandmother's ring has another advantage. With a diamond ring bought today you can't be sure it is not a " blood diamond". But a really old one will predate the mining of blood diamonds.

If you don't have the treasured ring of an older relative, how about buying a vintage ring. Other correspondents have said that diamond rings have a very low resale value. So, buying a vintage ring this should be in your favour. Buying one from a pawnbroker is probably going to seem like bad luck. How about doing a google search for estate jewelry?

On the other hand some fraction of the gold jewelry made prior to 1960 is contaminated with recycled gold that was radioactive because it had been used to enclose Radon seeds implanted as a cancer therapy. As the Radon decayed radioactive decay products got plated onto the gold

Re:A vintage ring won't bear a "blood diamond"

[kuiken]

Your great-grandmother's ring has another advantage. With a diamond ring bought today you can't be sure it is not a " blood [plus.com] diamond [plus.com]". But a really old one will predate the mining of blood diamonds.

Yeah they will be from the colnial days, and we all know ppl where taking real good care of the miners back then

National Geographic Story

[wdraham]

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/data/2002/ 03/01/html/ft_20020301.1.html

This sums it all up
Article in NG Magazine March 2002.

Score -1 Redundant

[dunedan]

you must purchase a diamond

MUST

Yeh, OK...

[autopr0n]

I agree with the AC: Might as well give her the best shoes you can to walk all over you.

I mean really, not only would you give up your money to please this women you'd give up your morals? That's just sad.

If my gf/fiance demanded I do something I had a moral problem with, I'd just get a new gf. (well, if I couldn't get her to accept that I wasn't going to do it)

I'm not saying that buying a diamond is that bad, but that's a pretty weak argument.

Re:Yeh, OK...

[Gudlyf]

Who said she "demanded" anything? My point was, don't go get something you want when it's something she's supposed to be wearing for herself.

Ok, here's a better analogy -- I wouldn't get my wife a PlayStation 2 when I knew she had her heart on something else that cost the same amount. Not because I felt she'd bash me, but because I'd feel like a real asshole for putting my beliefs and wants before hers.

Sheesh!

Re:Yeh, OK...

[non-poster]

I just gave my gf a PS2 yesterday. She liked it. (Now we can watch DVD's at her place.)

IT'S CARBON!!?!

[TrevorB]

People are spending thousands for DENSE LUMPS OF CARBON!?!

I'm sorry, I honestly don't get it. And thank goodness, neither does my wife. We each have a lovely pair of white gold bands, that will easily last our lifetime.... and if they do wear out, we'll buy new ones.

If the what kind of ring you have is going to have any kind of impact on your relationship whatsoever, you're in serious trouble. If you're not sure what her reaction would be, maybe try spending a little more time with the person and get to know them better, cause maybe you're not ready to get engaged yet... :(

Who wouldn't?

[autopr0n]

By your argument, I assume that you don't buy the argument that most heroin sales support terrorism (making users guilty of that)?

Does ANYONE believe that? The reality in Afghanistan was that drugs supported our allies in the northern alliance then did the taliban after Bush gave them (the taliban) a bunch of money to stop growing it.

Of course the taliban probably considered them terrorists, but whatever.

I hope you dig this far down [to the author]

[Hobbes_2100]

There are several trends in the discussion that I've seen:

1. Moral problems. I wouldn't worry about it. If you can find me ANYTHING that doesn't trace back to a morally questionable act, I'll be damn surprise (actually, I won't believe you). Shit happens to everyone. Some of us are just lucky as hell not to be born into it. If you think it matters, you and your to-be fiance can join the Peace Corps together.
2. Cost/Worth. Find yourself a decent, mom-and-pop jeweler. My jeweler guaranteed that he would buy back my stone (and ring) at any point in the future for the purchase price. Furthermore, my ring is insured for approximately $1000 dollars more than what I pair for it. Find yourself a REAL jeweler and you'll reap the benefits.
3. About communicating: some people said "Why the hell don't you talk with your wife about this?" Well, unlike most geek nerds, I picked out my wife's ring with NO (absolutely NONE) consultation of her. I spent about two months doing it. I look at hundreds of mountings. I look at many stones. I basically took a design and customized it to perfection. I had no doubt that she wouldn't flip over it. I completely surprised her. THAT is why I wouldn't talk to her about it. I didn't need HER to pick it out. I have a sense of taste and style and futhermore, that taste matches hers.

Regards,
Mark

Not exactly true

[autopr0n]

Actually it's way off base. It wasn't until the US started providing aid to Taliban Afghanistan that the Taliban cracked down on Opium production. And it wasn't a capital offence. If you got caught they marched you down the street warring a wreath of opium and then threw you in jail for like a month. The punishment for being clean shaven was higher.

Also not exactly true.

[autopr0n]

The taliban stoped the growing of opium, as per our request, but dumped their stock as soon as we declared 'war' in order rase capital to fight us off.

Conspicuous squandering

[PizzaFace]

Look how much money is wasted on the traditions of marriage. I dropped a wad on my wife's engagement ring, but then her mother dropped a wad and a half on the wedding, and my wife dropped half a wad on her gown. A couple years later, we wished we had saved one of those wads for furniture, but we couldn't specify what we would have wanted to give up.

Wasting money on a useless but ever-conspicuous bauble is not always a waste. Some women, such as my wife, want to feel, and want their friends to feel, that they were bought for a high price. And truth be told, I don't mind people knowing that I paid a high price for her.

And she was a good investment. She's even taught herself to reupholster furniture!

DUMP girl/diamond idea and buy more HARDWARE

[Locutus]

hehe, just kidding. If she's the right one, her income will help you purchase even MORE HARDWARE. ;-)

Look for a cool looking antique ring or one at a pawn shop.

Birth Stone

[PhysBrain]

My wife and I shopped around for an engagement ring for some time before we finally found one that said "take me home". It seemed to us that all of the diamond engagement rings were all too similar and too glitzy. Both of us also have a strong subconcious need to not be like-everyone-else(tm). Besides, for something as personal as a engagement/wedding ring, it only makes sense to get one that has as much personal significance to the wearer as possible.

But just because you decide not to go with a diamond, don't think that you're going to get off cheap. This particular ring cost about $500. Still, it was well worth it in my opinion.

---
No problem can withstand the assault of sustained thinking. -Voltaire

Re:Material Gift != love

[Prior Restraint]

"If he's not serious enough about your future and his ability to provide for you by saving up two months salary, then you should question if he is right for you."

A fair enough statement on its own, but the reality is something along the lines of: ...his ability to save up two months salary and then blow it all in one fell swoop on a bauble...

Not exactly my idea of a sound fiscal strategy.

From a X-chromosone POV

[penguin_dance]

Yes, diamonds are a ripoff, yes it's a cartel (just like UAE oil) where they fix the price.

But I've got to say if she wants a diamond get her a diamond. Hopefully this purchase also makes you really think about if this is the one you want to buy that ring for. Trust me, this is the time to think about that...not AFTER you've said, "I DO."

I'm logical and practical. I knew my fiance didn't have the money and this wasn't either of our first marriages, so I suggested a ring with some small white saphires for an engagement/wedding band. It was about $100.

We've been married for 6 years and we're very much in love. But I hope when it gets around to the 10 year aniversary I can get something a little nicer. It's impractical, but as it is I rarely wear my wedding ring.

If there are any upcoming Rock and Mineral (Geological type) shows or Gem and Jewelery shows (the former is usually better priced) those are great places to shop. Usually the quality is much better and the prices are too!

You're one cheap fucker. :-)

[The Panther!]

:-)

I bought my diamond loose from a relative "in the biz", and had it set in platinum--the only way to go. Even at half price, it ran me more than twice the paltry $2k you're quibbling about. Good rings aren't to be had for that sum, and you're right, it's better spent elsewhere if you can't afford to put money into investment quality diamonds. Get her a beautiful ring with a CZ, tell her it's a lab-created diamond, and let her know that what you plan to do is provide for both of your futures with the savings. Could be a honeymoon vacation, could be a downpayment. Whatever. The point is, if you don't have the money to spend, don't.

For people who have the means, but choose not to, you look cheap and your friends will know it. Anyone who has a $60,000+ car, owns a house, or has a good paying job (>$35k) will be seen as having no excuse. I'd be inclined to agree. If you can't show a financial committment to your betrothed, but can afford your toys, there's something wrong. It's not even so much that it's a diamond--heck, buy her a ruby or a new car or a nice pair of earrings--just something as a downpayment on your future.

The #1 thing you need to learn is picking your battles. Compromise is part of living with someone, as is taking stands on things that are so important that you'd rather be without that person than cave. (I've been married 3 wonderful years and never had to make that choice.)

As far as people judging you by diamond size and whatnot, it only matters when you just get engaged. You could just as well "rent" a diamond by adding it to your homeowners insurance policy, then leave it in the hotel on a trip. It pays for itself and you have a good story to tell your friends.

I will also point out that up until 1940, engagement rings were not diamond bearing, but typically other stones.

Ties that Bind

[Peahippo]

My lady Sarah had a kind of peculiar request for a solid gold ring with the "language of Mordor" written on it, or something like that. She also got me a ring herself; she didn't tell me where she got it. It felt funny when I put it on, but that feeling went away soon. Lately, I have started to become slightly transparent; I have taken to wearing dark robes, and now have a horse named Firethorn. Excuse me, I have to ride off in search of a certain wizard, to help put Sarah on the trail.

big ass diamonds

[LennyNero]

http://www.bigassdiamonds.com/

will sell you an 800carat flawless CZ for only 249$!!

Have a look at Australian diamonds

[ttys00]

A few posters here have suggested Canadian diamonds as being free of the badness associated with deBeers. I suggest Australian diamonds. The Argyle diamond mine in Western Australia produces some of the best diamonds in the world, sells them cheaper than deBeers and its workers are extremely well paid.

The .au govt has intervened on at least one occasion that I know of to prevent deBeers from buying Argyle, as they are somewhat of a threat to their monopoly.

Diamonds

[JenniEver]

I've spent the last year studying in South Africa and all of that is absolutely true. We spent a week on the gold and diamond industry in South Africa in my economics class. Interesting stuff, but really makes me think twice about my jewelery. I'd say I like a pearl as a replacement. But that's just me.

Are all life's questions answered in the movies?

[geoswan]

Are all life's questions answered in the movies?

There is a 1993 film called "Watch it!" There is a childhood rivalry between these two guys. They are competing for the same gal. The bad one escalates things by asking her to marry him, even though he couldn't care less about her. There is a scene where they go shopping for rings. The jeweler shows them some rings, and says something like, "These two rings look similar, but one is worth only $N, and the other one is worth 5 x $N."

The bad guy asks his fiance to step aside to talk with him. "Of course I am going to get you the expensive one honey. Now I need to negotiate with him. This is guy stuff, so wait here for me, okay?"

Then he goes over the jeweler, and says. I want you to pretend we are negotiating. Do you remember those two rings, that looked practically identical, where one was worth $N and the other 5 x $N? What I want is to buy the cheap ring, for the price you mentioned. And I am going to give you an extra $100 if you pretend, for my fiance, that I sprung for the expensive one.

Get Her The Ring You Cheap Ass Pinche Gringo!

[thelizman]

Seriously, have you talked with her (I'm assuming gender roles, feel free to insert he or him where appropriate). You should make your feelings on the issue known, and elicit her opinion. In my experience, even the most socially concious woman is still a greedy little wench who doesn't care who has to die for her diamonds and wedding dress. But you never know, she might suprise you and say she actually would prever an Emerald Callagh (sp?).

In other news, diamonds DO have resale value, just not the kind of diamonds us phillistines have access too. And lest face it, you may think you know your four c's, but after spending some time in the jewelry business you do not know your four c's unless the only diamonds you are satisfied with cost more than a hatian boatload of gold.

As to alternatives, Canada and Australia are home to some of the finest diamonds on the market, but their production is small scale and limited. They don't have the DeBeers marketing machine going for them, but they truly are nicer. And there's my favorite non-CZ diamond simulant: Diamondique (yes, it even fools thos damn diamond detecters jewelers use sometimes).

REALLY Alternative :)

[Crispin Cowan]

My wife's engagement ring is in her tongue. My engagement ring is in my left nipple. Neither involves a diamond :)

Ok, so that is probably a little too alternative for most people. More seriously, if you must have a diamond, and they have crappy resale value, why not go buy a used one? eBay or pawn shop for a used ring with a nice rock, and (if necessary) spend the $$ you saved on the rock on some custom jewelry work for a setting.

Crispin
----
Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc.
Immunix: Security Hardened Linux Distribution
Available for purchase

A practical alternative to diamonds

[lazeke]

Why don't you hack together a mini GPS and transmitter, coat it with polished silicon and paste it to a ring. It would look okay, and you'd know where this girl is all the time.

Just make your own

[elcamino_wally]

Want to avoid conflict diamonds? Want to know your diamond's true origin? I'm not a materials scientist, but I seem to recall that diamonds can be made from most any carbon rich material, including peanut butter, by pressing and heating the material for an 'extended' ( billions of years) time period. Pressures of 1e6 psi and temperatures on the order of 2000 C are required, measureable diamonds can form in a single hour. http://www.elwoodcorp.com/diam2.htm (the first site I found in a quick google search) To get 1e6 psi just get a 1500 pounds on a 1mm^2 area. The 2000 C can be achieved with resistive heating or maybe an oxy-acetylene torch!? Honestly, I know this is silly, the diamonds would be on the order of microns in diamater, and it would be easy to brown out the neighborhood or burn down the house, but your friends would atleast have a good story to tell at your wedding.

If she is into history you may beable to get away

[will_die]

If she is into history you may beable to get away with going with an emerald.
Beyond that you are out of luck, the diamond as the wedding ring is to engrained into the american and probably the world's thinking.
Just try to not buy to big of overpriced piece of common gem.

I'd buy a diamond for different reasons

[meowwmixx]

Speaking purely from my own tastes here, I'm of the idea that I WANT to buy my gf a diamond. It's not that it's necessary, I'm sure if I asked her about it she would tell me not to buy her one. I want to do this because its a testement to how much I care about her, as much for me as for her. Admittedly, it's a seemingly pointless gesture for that purpose, but from her perspective, she's getting a traditional proposal, and I'm proving to her and to myself that I'm willing to do sentimental things to show her I love her. She know's that a diamond is useless, really, but she can see firsthand how she makes me feel and the lengths I would go to to prove my feelings. I find something really romantic about the typical "on bended knee" thing and I look forward to doing it for her. The look on her face (that I HOPE to see...) is worth the price of a diamond alone to me. Call me crazy, but I think there are quite a few people out there who feel the same way. Just something about tradition that really makes it seem special.

Forget it!

[jarran]

Dude, your considering buying an engagement ring and one of the things your worried about is resale value?! I say don't bother: your relationship is doomed already.

Best alternative to a diamond engagement ring

[peg0cjs]

A life of celibacy!

Cute Cats with Big Eyes

[umrk]

Would she want one if the ones suffering were not some distant Africans (there's always trouble anyway) but cute little cats with big eyes? Very many, very cute, very young, very big eyes.

Second, do you want to get engaged with a girl who insists on diamonds? Who does not understand that YOU don't want to buy such a thing?

Be a man! Stand up for the things you believe in! Would she want to marry a loser with no backbone who does stuff he is opposed to?

Just my thoughts.

I didn't - went for gold

[Frodo420024]

Bought a set of solid gold rings. Good quality, more practical, fine.

She was vastly surprised when she got them, but did say yes :)

LotR answer

[Frodo420024]

The One ring had no adornment, no diamonds, rubys etc. Oh, about Diamonds not forever, neither is graphite. Protons are unstable, you know. But then, so are human bodies - tough...

good return on investment!

[evil-empir3]

I have a friend at work that was nearly ready to buy his fiance' a small, crap diamond from Fred Meyers' jewelry dept because he said that she was so down-to-earth and practical. He thought that she would value the symbolic gesture of getting the ring more than the ring itself. My boss and I slapped him around a bit and told him that regardless of whether she was materialistic or not, he should consider shopping for her ring at Tiffanys. Tiffanys engagement rings cost at least 1/3 more, but the return on investment would be substantial. Long story short, we talked him into it and she was blown away. She immediately freaked out when she saw the box. For someone that "wasn't materialistic", she sure knew what she had just received. She immediately called her mother and sister and told them that he had proposed with a tiffanys ring. Then she called every last girlfriend she had. The point here is that this is one of the biggest days in a woman's life and whether or not you see see the importance of a diamond to a woman, *she* will. My friend has since gotten married and still gets continuous satisfaction from knowing his wife is so thrilled about her ring that she still stares proudly at it every day. She gets countless compliments on it and she brags about it all the time. Oh yeah, and it didn't hurt his sex life with her either. ;-) Diamonds aren't important to a girl? Pffft. yeah right...

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[onepoint]

>>Note: Go to a flower shop across campus (assuming you are in college), and walk back to her room with a rose in your hand. You will attract more women than you ever thought possible. And think, they know that you are taken, and they are still interested.

Oh how true that is, but it's better in an office, I would give my assistant flowers every Tuseday morning for her desk, but I would have to pass about 200 feet of open space to get to her. gave her the flowers with a smile and she would always return the smile back. we never let onto the gag with anybody else, and I always had some woman in my building free to take me to lunch ( what me pay? )

ONEPOINT

Toilet Seat Etiquette

[joee]

Her: Why do you leave the toilet seat up? I always need it down, and you need it down 50% of the time. Efficiency would require leaving it down as a matter of practice.
Me: True.

I have two words for you: lazy evaluation. Even assuming you need it down 50% of the time (implying you should drink more or eat less fiber), the most efficient algorithm is to let the person who is about to use the toilet do it, if necessary.

Re:Toilet Seat Etiquette

[Galvatron]

Yes, my thoughts exactly. If they guy pisses twice in a row, a total of 4 unnecessary operations have been performed on the toilet seat. I look at it like this: the girl always needs it down, and the guy usually needs it up.

This algorithm has fairness benefits as well. If the seat is down (which it will be slightly more than half the time) guy puts it up, and if the seat is up (slightly less than half) girl puts it down. This results in a fairly even distribution of labor, whereas the always-put-the-seat-down algorithm results in one party doing all the work.

Of course it would be even more efficient to just get a urinal, and let the girl epoxy the seat down if she wants. I've never understood why urinals are only in public restrooms, and are never found in the home.

Re:Toilet Seat Etiquette

[Johnathon Walls]

I had this same conversation with my (now) wife. I actually stuck by the principle that it was a lopsided arrangement, and that I should leave it up to ensure that the work is split evenly. And I stuck by that.

Then she got a cat. And I got a guilt trip about the possibility of said cat drowning in said toilet.

The seat is now down.

Re:Toilet Seat Etiquette

[cosyne]

I have two words for you: lazy evaluation.

Thank you. I'm glad i'm not the only person who's offended by reading that logical fallacy. And your argument is better than what i would have posted.

Re:Toilet Seat Etiquette

[yakovlev]

My wife and I have agreed to always do the LEAST efficient thing... we both put the lid down. Then we both have to put the lid up to use the toilet.

In fact, I've had this habit since before we were married. This way I don't get yelled at for leaving the toilet seat up, but I know that no matter who sits on the toilet next, they're going to have to put at least the lid up.

It's totally inefficient, but it is equal division of labor.

Re:Toilet Seat Etiquette

[fonetik]

Marriage may be a union, but it doesn't mean you have to make up laws like a union. =)

-Tom

Re:Toilet Seat Etiquette

[Galvatron]

Is that actually likely? I've never even seen cats venture into the bathroom, probably because of how much they hate the water.

Re:Toilet Seat Etiquette

[Galvatron]

My girlfriend puts the lid down, because she read somewhere a long time ago that a flushing toilet can throw water droplets out up to five feet away. Amazingly though, she actually doesn't mind that I leave the seat up. I guess since she's used to having to put the lid up, she doesn't care about putting the lid up vs. putting the seat down.

Re:Toilet Seat Etiquette

[Yosho]

I've got four cats that all frequently go in and out of the bathroom. Granted, we keep their litter box right next to the toilet, so they don't have a whole lot of choice.

Nonetheless, I can't imagine any of them ever drowning in the toilet -- if one of them so much as touched the water, there'd probably be a violent chemical reaction that would send them flying down the hallway...

Re:Toilet Seat Etiquette

[Mr.Mustard]

I've never understood why urinals are only in public restrooms, and are never found in the home.

It's funny you should say that, because I've never understood why urinals exist at all. A normal toilet provides a much broader set of functionality.

I also don't understand why many men feel that they have to urinate standing up.

ideas from a wife (with a diamond)

[Bi9Kahuna]

I would look at saphirres, emeralds, and such. Those stones can be beautiful engagement rings set in a platinum ring. I have a friend who has one and many of us agree that it is way nicer than our diamonds. Plus, I have to admit that it would be nice to have something that you didn't have to compare to other peoples purely based on size or purity - asthetically the saphirres win. If you put your effort into designing the ring with a jewelry designer the thought is a big plus, too. Just make sure you understand your finances taste in jewelry or simply pick out the stone and suggest that you design it together with a jeweler (make sure to talk to a designer first and set a budget!). Diamonds are nice but a beautiful ring from a thoughtful spouse will beat a diamond any day!
Best of luck!

DeBeers [Was: Diamond Substitute]

[Soulslayer]

DeBeers is also the reason that the richest minefields outside of Africa like those in Utah remain untapped or "tourist attractions".

DeBeers is the one that forced GE to only sell their synthetic diamonds for industrial use.

etc

etc

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[lpq]

Does anyone really think buying a diamond is buying happiness for their girlfriend?

Let's say you buy the diamond. So how long do you think that will make her happy?

There's a difference between 'happy' and 'appreciation'. If you are buying her 'things' in an effort to make her happy, then isn't this you making her happiness dependent on how much you can buy her?
Personally, I wouldn't want a girl who'd be happy with a diamond. I prefer one who values herself and one who values me.

I do believe in reciprocation. If both of youo want to buy each other a diamond ring, then sure -- it's an equal exchange symboliing, perhaps an equal commitment, of the same measure, to each other.
-l

Find an artisan jeweller

[panurge]

For the inflated price of a high street jeweller, you can afford to go to an artisan jeweller and have something completely custom. Do research on the net, find someone you both like the look of. If you live on the East Coast, you might even want to make the trip to Europe - Italy, Netherlands, parts of Germany and even Birmingham, UK are good places. And you're making a stand for individuality as well as getting something that might actually appreciate in value

I got the ring...

[Matthew Weigel]

And I'm still grappling with the ethical issues.

It made her very happy, yes; and it made me feel good to make her that happy.

But was it worth it? I honestly don't know. I don't think I'm ever buying a diamond again, though.

Possible cure for diamond fever:

[maody]

- Get tickets to Amsterdam, Antwerp, Tel Aviv or NYC

- Take part in some guided diamond polisher tours

- Let your girlfriend watch how much (and how fast) diamonds get polished there. Diamond polishing is manual labor, but because of the hundreds of diamonds on the polishers desk, it looks more like a miller pouring grain in a mill.

- While watching the polisher, do not get impressed by the tour guides marketing speak. Instead try to talk with your girlfriend about "profit" of diamonds. Dont forget to mention, that you have visited only one or two polishers and there are hundreds and more in town. Let her think about the "uniqeness" of a diamond....

- If your girlfriend still wants one, enjoy the rest of the trip and avoid to buy it from the "guided-tour-polishers". They rip you off ;)

Moissanite is _better_ then diamond

[ars]

Buy her moissanite - it's actually better then diamond (more sparkle, etc), it's cheaper at about 1/10th the price - and it's nearly impossible to tell the difference. Most diamond checkers will think moissanite is diamond! (it has similar heat absorbtion, which is what they check)

The only way to tell the difference is that moissanite is double refracting, vs single for diamond.

If you have difficulty buying it contact me and I can get you some. It's not sold directly to the public (to try to keep the cost up :), but I can get it. Try the internet too of course.

And BTW if you never tell her it's not diamond she'll never know the difference - even a jewler would have a hard time telling. Course you don't want to lie to your wife..... :)

Here's a little chart.
The numbers are: moissanite, diamond, ruby, sapphire, emerald
Refractive Index: 2.65-2.69, 2.24, 1.77, 1.77, 1.58
Fire: 0.104, 0.044, 0.018, 0.018, 0.014
Lustre%: 20.4, 17.2, 7.4, 7.4, 4.8
Mohs Hardness: 9.25, 10, 9, 9, 7.5

As you can see moissanite wins in everything except hardness. And moissanite is actually tougher then diamond. (Hard is scratching, tought is breaking.)

Diamonds are US only

[leandrod]

In Brasil, diamonds are considered extremely over and kitsch in anything but night jewellery, the kind used at big-time, no-more-than-two-at-a-year parties. No one would ever use them at a simple dinner, or graduation party. Only at night marriages, official receptions and the such.

For engagement and marriage rings, simple gold is more elegant, at most a combination of different colours of gold mine is a three-rings entwined imitation of classical Cartier design, each ring of a colour: white, yellow and red gold. At most people will use wrought gold: with forms of entwined elephants, or with braille codes, or whatever. But still the most elegant is simple, plain gold.

Just think if she would like to be more elegant than her kitsch friends dumped by ads but make sure she get the idea.

About ethics, just remember that bad as mining is, having no job is far worse.

Truth about Diamonds

[majika]

Why would anybody ask for this kind of advice from /.???? As a geologist/gemologist/college dropout/ex-gem trader, I have to say Diamonds are not "worthless pieces of carbon." They are quite valuable as Russian mafia in 'limited partnership with DeBeers' keeps it that way. After all, it is in their very best interests.

Many large investment portfolios contain investment-quality diamonds (>1ct, D-E color, flawless to VVS1), and the Prices of Diamonds have risen steadily over the last 20 years except for a brief period during the 1980s.

People are used to the retail on general jewellery being 300% of cost. The diamond business is cut throat and although your setting will probably be market up that much (or 500%+ if purchasing from Tiffany, etc), your diamond is likely to be marked up only 20%.

Is the guy who spent $300 paying 20% over. Not likely, he's probably paying much more and his diamond was absolutely cut by child labor. They have better eyesight and less skill, which puts them in the position of routinely cutting very low quality, small stones. Is the guy who spends $3000 on a diamond getting more for his money? Yes, a stone that was likely cut by an adult in a civilized country. $30,000 stone? Cut by a master cutter in a major diamond center such as Antwerp, Israel, or the US.

Someone said he bought a sapphire as an engagement ring, that is a great idea; and one that is increasingly popular in Europe. However quality sapphires can approach diamond prices easily. Dark blue, opaque sapphires are not relatively that rare. Princess Diana actually had a sapphire engagment ring.

And for Jewellers not buying back their merchandise. I know for a fact that Lenoir Jewellers 601-924-7755 (web site sucks) will buy back any diamond it sells to you for up to one year after purchase for the same amount you purchased it for. -Something that was handy during the first marriage.

Try cutting your own stone for a ring

[bxbaser]

If you can find a local rock club many times they have classes that you are able to learn the art of faceting. Pick out a rough stone and cut one yourself your wife will be estatic that you perform this "Labour of love" and didnt just go and buy one.
I am an amuater stone cutter and when my wife and i bought a large helidor stone for 55 dollars for the purpose of cutting a wedding type ring we couldnt hope the results where as great as they where. Only problem is she never wears the ring as she values it more than anything else she owns. When the actual value is about $400.

Engagement rings in germany

[timerider]

Hi,

we (my wife and me) had no special engagement rings.
German 'tradition' in that matter is to buy the weddng rings but to wear them on the left hand, and put them on the right hand after the wedding.
Both partners usually have the same ring (style-wise) and admit it, a diamond does look strange with a man...
we have rings made from platinum and gold, platinum on the outside and gold on the inside.

bye,
[L]

Stainless Steel

[Qbertino]

I was once about to study fashion design, so you might want to consider what I have to say:
Scimpy Diamond rings are silly and pointless. In fact, making a diamond *ring* that makes sense is very difficult, because they tend to get clutsy and big, makeing even a woman look like a pimp wearing it. Eihter you want the shine of rock (diamonds are unique in the way they gather and reflect light - that's what makes them special and why they look cool when set up the right way) - then you need a certain amount for them to take effect. Check out the stuff from Bvlgary to see what I mean.
To kinda answer your question:
My LAP (Lebens Abschnitts Partner - "life period partner") and I (we've been together 8 years and have a 4 year old daughter) got a fitting Set of Stainless Steel rings for 100$ a piece. In platinum they would cost 1200$ a piece and look *exactly* the same. They look good, fit to *everything* I could wear (or not wear :-) ) and I actually *like* to wear mine, allthough I have to take it of when I type (which I do a lot).
We took the remaining 2200$ and went on a vacation we'll have sweet memories about for the rest of our life. No, a scimpy zero-effect diamond pseudo-ring is not worth it. It's even pointless if you're serious about jewelery.
If there's anything that's mindless luxury it's 'rare material' jewelery. If you can't buy it without even noticing the expense, kinda like Bill Gates or Malcom Forbes wouldn't notice, then see if you can make the idea of spending the diamond ring money for something of more value attractive to her. Don't get my wrong:
If I where rich, I'd buy jewlery for my wife. The right way. Unfortunately, the stuff that actually looks good and moves away from pointless, crappy designed, "that little spec is a real diamond" to "wow, look at that - what a beautyfull necklace" comes from people like Bvlgary and Co. and costs 200K and above. If your wife doesn't look even more sexy with a piece of jewelery on her, chances are it is not the right jewelery for her or it's bad jewelery. The later is mostly the case. Keep that in mind when looking at the stuff.
Good luck macking her happy.

OT: how C++ does its dirty deed

[iskander]

I can't recall any children being maimed or killed over Stroustrup's C++ designs.

I agree: a lot more people are made a lot more miserable by the diamond trade than by C++. The latter is a subtle, merciful killer; it eschews violence. Freshmen simply lose the will to live about four weeks into CS101, when they learn the true meaning of inheritance and friendship: "you aren't going to get a lot of money from your parents, but you will probably get the same self-destructive behavior they had, which will probably be triggered by someone covering his ass after someone you thought was your friend tripped you up by playing with your member".

["Only friends can play with your member(s)" heard from Andy Kinley at RHIT, IIRC. Hi, Andy!]

Re:OT: how C++ does its dirty deed

[carpe_noctem]

omg...another rose student! word. But I don't think they do C++ in CS101 anymore...the course is now called "CSSE 120". Stupid administration.

Re:GIA certified diamonds

[ShadowDrake]

I wouldn't be so confident in professional certification. While it may work better in gems, a similar story was promoted for coins and other investment/collectibles, and resulted in the following:

-Dubious certification services appear; in some cases, these services were owned/controlled by the very people whose goods they were certifying. In some cases, you'd have a harder time selling an item certified by one of those authorities than if the dealer alone quoted a grade.

-Standards shifted over time, even with well-regarded services. The coin you got certified as "MS-65" and worth $200 in 1992 is now a "MS-67" worth $4000, or a "MS-63" worth $20. This problem is particularly bad when an item is between two levels with significantly different values.

-Technical grades didn't always accomodate eye-appeal well. One "XF-40" might look an order of magnitude better than another due to differences in the damage. If pricing or trading is supposed to be done sight-unseen using the grades, this can be trouble. I suspect this will be the biggie with stones.

Re:Give the lady diamonds and she'll give you head

[Billly Gates]

....or go buy a ticket to Las Vegas. Find a local Hotel/Casino. Then hire a whore or better yet 3 whores and have a head sucking contest with a $500 reward for the best blow. Then go back home and count the thousands of dollars saved from the price of the ring.

there are ethical diamonds

[xutopia]

I don't think it matters much how old a tradition is. Truth is I think marriage is fluff as well and serves only to show others how truly commited you are in your relationship. The ring serves the same purpose. It isn't between you and your wife but for others to see that you and her are serious. If you want ethical diamonds you can try buying canadian diamonds. I did a search on this a while back. They are not dug out in Sierra Leone or anything like that and the miners are paid a decent salary for digging as well. http://www.siriusdiamonds.com/home.htm

Re: but we ARE different from our parents.

[guybarr]

Works well for my parents. And my girlfriend's parents. And the parents of my best friends.

What worked well for them may very probably NOT work well for us:

you're ignoring a major factor here: the pill.
I believe the pill is the major reason for the sexual revolutions and backlashes of the second half of last century. Seperating procreation from sex was a major destabilizer for monogamy (that, and the the women joining the work-force, thus giving them options they didn't have before).

My point is: the human race is still in the after-effects of the seperation of sex from procreation, and in this respect, we ARE different from our parents.

Our descendants may go even further down this road: even today you see lesbian couples using genetic material from sperm-banks, what will the notion of marriage mean, in genetic ,social and financial terms, when you'll be able to screen the child and transplant foreign, "better" genetic material to the offsprings ?

I guess they'll live in ingteresting times ...

Use old ones

[MattWeth]

Still a diamond granted - but not a new one.

My girlfriend chose a victorian antique ring (cost slightly less too :-). I must admit that this wasn't for idealogical reasons - she just preferred it, but at least at was kind of 'recycled' (something which we both believe in).

Nahhh.

[aepervius]

Poor people do more kids than rich one to be sure that at least one rich adulthood alive. So there is a selection process with poor people, which is not there with rich people (kids being coveted and protected against the rest of the world).

So in short the materialistic woman is bound to have less offspring adapted to the world, and they will need more "help" [$dough$] than the poor's offspring which will work hard and will have success on their own.

The above is said in only half sarcastic way, because I observed it time and time again with rich brat unable to survive with papa & mama.

Re:The way I see it..

[melee]

I dunno... I suspect anyone who would suggest otherwise is simply far too lucky.

HDTV

[charlie763]

I's like to see her firend's faces while they gaze upon Matrix: Reloaded on her new engagment Widescreen HDTV.

Re:You're one cheap fucker. :-)

[balthan]

I've been married 3 wonderful years and never had to make that choice.

She hasn't let you make any decisions yet?

If the woman wants a diamond...

[heathcaldwell]

If the woman wants a diamond, get the woman a diamond. Never, ever, trick yourself into beliving her if she says she does not want one. You know if she wants one or not. And if you can't tell, I'll tell you. She wants one. Do her, and yourself a favor. Avoid years of hidden resentment. Just get the woman a diamond. -Heath

Re:If the woman wants a diamond...

[nagora]

If the woman wants a diamond, get the woman a diamond.

And if she wants a lampshade made from human skin? There's not much ethical difference.

Tell her how these things are obtained and what DeBeers does to maintain the price and if she still wants one tell her to take a hike; you'll be better off.

TWW

Re:Dump the bitch and find a man!

[Anonymous Coward]

ok I am gay myself. If I marry you would you buy this as an engagement present. :-)

I might even turn straight for this.

Commission your own ring

[mattbee]

A friend's mother is a jeweller and I asked whether she'd make a ring to a rough design I'd drawn out (okay, copied & customised a little bit): just a plain gold band with a stone set in a particular way. It came out perfectly and to the right size, because my girlfriend has child-sized fingers and no off-the-shelf design would have fitted without some alteration. You can spend just as much money commissioning a ring, leave off the diamond, and your girlfriend knows she has something that was made just for her rather than hurriedly picked off a shelf in exchange for so many months' salary. A few people have mentioned girlfriends comparing diamond sizes, feelings of inadequacy, bitchiness etc.-- well custom-made trumps expensive any day, which is good because I was a poor student at the time :-)

Soy...

[tpv]

Soy!?! Soy!?!
You murderer!

OH, THE BEANMANITY!

Titanium rings, with a twist

[Hannes]

I once heard of some guy, he bought a pair of, if i remember correctly, titanium rings which were still tarnished. He gave one to his girlfriend when they were getting engaged.

When they would become married, he'd have a jeweller polish the two rings so they could shine on forever.

I thought this is a really nice idea. Maybe this works with other metals, too.

Do it the geek way: alloy rings with fingerprints

[osolemirnix]

A good friend of mine had two rings made for him and his girl (just plain rings, no jewels). Engraved all around on the inside of each ring is a fingerprint of them. In other words, she has a fingerprint of him, and he has a fingerprint of her.
You cannot see the print, only feel them when you wear the ring (like they feel each others hands).

The rings are made of some kind of special alloy (titanium or something, I forgot which), they are light and look rather simple but very pretty.

Of course this guy is an engineer, as you may have guessed. :-)

Antique jewellery auctions

[Elanor]

Seriously.

This is where the retailers go to buy the goods. They bid 50% of what they're going to sell it for in the shop. So if you bid 60%, you'll pay a little more than they would, but a lot less than what you'd pay in a store. Means investigating prices, of course. If you see a gem you like, but the setting's crap, you can always get it reset. However, some of those old settings are exquisite. Esp. stuff from the Naughties to 1920's. And they did use diamonds before 1938, but the emphasis was on the artistry.

Re:Do it the geek way: alloy rings with fingerprin

[Qbertino]

[Nitpick mode on]

Titanium actually isn't an alloy. It's a chemical element and a pure metal in it's own right.

[Nitpick mode off]

Sorry, couldn't resist. I don't want you go discriminating on such a fine metal, y'know? :-)

Diamond age

[StrawberryFrog]

The long term (ie 50 years and up) value of diamonds is near to zero. It's just carbon, give or take some manfacturing processes. In the long term, once some basic nanotech (not the way-out stuff, just better molecular assembly processes) is sorted out, there is no reason why a kilo block of diaomond should cost more than say, ten times the cost of a kilo block of plastic.

Yes, you can tell manufactured diaomonds from those made 'naturallly' in volcanos by counting the rings or something. But when people start throwing manufactured diaomond stuff out with thier daily trash, the image of 'natural' diamond is sure to take a knock. There is no real, material difference between the two. As ever with diamonds, it's about marketing.

Resale value

[pmasters]

This whole article just doesn't show genuine love to me.
This should be about being able to ask your girlfriend square
in the eye that you want to spend your life with her - not
looking at the ring thinking "I found that somewhere cheap".
Whether or not you spend x pounds/dollars/euros on a ring is
irrelevant, as is whether it has a diamond, but whether it was
bought "on the cheap" says something. The whole idea of considering
resale value when buying an engagement ring suggests a lack of
committment to the process.

It's not the diamond, it's the price

[OpenSourced]

I'm a bit late, and perhaps somebody told it already, but I've got THE ANSWER, so I'd better say it:

THE GIRLS CARE NOTHING FOR DIAMONDS, ALL THEY MIND IS THE PRICE IT COSTED YOU

That's not cynical or anything like that. She likes to know that she is important to you, and you will expend a lot of money for her. As a matter of fact, an study on gifts to girls found that the presents they most liked were small-format very-expensive laptops. Really. No kidding. Forget diamonds. Kick one up the ass to the DeBeers cartel. Don't play along.

Might I suggest...

[DavidMonks]

...an antique ring? Charm, uniqueness; and while its creation may or may not have involved suffering, you will not in any way be involved in causing or sponsoring that suffering.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[olethrosdc]

Hey, what? Sending flowers is stupid? What I wonder is... if girls think sending flowers is so cool and romantic...

why don't THEY send flowers to men???

Waiting

[awol]

I am just waiting 'til my mum dies and I can use hers. (I only have sisters :-)

You are asking the wrong group

[rossz]

These are not the people you should be asking for advice on your girlfriend. These are geeks. Most of them don't even have girlfriends.

Trolling aside, if you think your girlfriend would want a diamond, you would be a fool to substitute something else. She may suggest something else is ok, but that is a lie. She really wants the diamond and she will resent the fact that you didn't get her one.

Go synthetic

[david.given]

Get a synthetic diamond. It's cheaper, can be larger, far better ethically, can be an interesting shape, and the cool factor in having something that someone actually made is far greater than having something someone just dug out of the ground.

Unfortunately, de Beers controls the market to such an extent that it can be tricky finding a jeweller willing to order and set a synthetic diamond for you...

The article is dated 1982 - so what happened?

[kevquinn]

The article made claims that the whole "diamond invention" thing would collapse pretty soon, and it was written in 1982. Obviously that hasn't happened, some 20 years on. Where did all the Australian diamonds go? What about Zambia et. al. that the article mentions? Presumably the South African government today still leaves DeBeers doing their thing much as DeBeers did during the apartheid era (yet another triumph of financial convenience over moral consistency). What about the Soviet diamonds? Are they still piped through DeBeers?

On the other hand, if it's supposed to be a surprise, why not buy her a cubic zirconia instead of a diamond. Keeps its value (er, 'coz it doesn't have much to start with!), and I bet most people can't tell the difference without looking closely (when was the last time you examined someone-elses engagement ring?) :) Buy her a car with the difference, and she'll join in the subterfuge quite happily.

You don't need a refund, diamond rings appreciate

[James Youngman]

They'll sell you the shit, but damn it, they're not taking it back at any price

The jeweller doesn't have to - often the piece appreciates. I know someone whose engagement ring cost in the region of GBP 2500 in 1985; it's now worth about GBP 8000 (sold, I guess, second-hand). Of course, it's her engagement ring - she's not going to sell it.

The downside of this is that she lost the central stone out of the ring a fortnight ago (there are three stones, one large and two small). Fortunately, the insurance will replace it with one of an equivalent colour, quality, etc. The thing that amazes me is that this isn't even the first time the stone has dropped out! (In other words, the stone she just lost is not the one that was originally on the ring either!).

Canadian Diamonds are not blood diamonds...

[blackcat4]

Look north of the border for blood free diamonds:

http://www.nature.ca/discover/treasures/trsite_e /t rmineral/tr3/tr3.html

Not only are they blood free but it turns out that the Inuit on whose land they are found make excellent diamond cutters. A very large percentage of diamonds mined, cut and polished in Canada are 000 cuts.

This just in: Diamonds are overrated.

[kalimar]

Well they are. You can get gorgeous rings with most stones and still pay less than some hideous chuck of metal with a lump of carbon. I was probably lucky. My girlfriend, at the time, and I went to the Bahamas for a bit and she saw a ring there that she absolutely had to have. It was a nice piece of white gold with a black pearl and a couple of accent diamonds. So I gave that to her as her engagement ring. She's my wife now in case people were wondering.

Yes, you could go with diamonds and spend the 'traditional' two paychecks on it. Or you could pick another stone and get that. Sapphires, pearls, tourmaline, all good. Onyx is ok, but the stone is very fragile and not a particularly good deal for rings. What's her birthstone? Talk to a jeweler about what that stone looks like, costs, etc.

Also take into account what your girlfriend does during the day. If she works in a job in which she has a good chance of smacking her hand into something (retail), then a large stone might not be worth it since she might end up damaging the stone (same goes for wedding rings btw).

Also, think about the band. Yellow gold doesn't look great on everyone. White gold or platinum might look better (platinum is way more expensive though). Also think of the carats. Most jewelers won't work with more than 18 or 20 carat gold (at least in the US) and the color gets worse the lower you go. That all makes a difference (in both price and appreciation).

Other than diamonds, what stones does your girlfriend like? Look at a list of birthstones for a start. Emerald, Amethyst, Garnet, Ruby, Sapphire, Tourmaline, Onyx, etc. All nice stones.

Moral: Diamonds may be nice, but diamonds are pushed so hard, that people forget about the other stones and the fact that they make great pieces of jewelry as well as nice things to hand down to your children.

Get her the diamond

[pvera]

Even if it is a small one. She will understand if you have to get her a smaller one, but she will not understand if you take a stance against DeBeers and the whole diamond trade deal. Trust me, women have no interest (which is not the same as no clue) on the DeBeers cartel or in the life condition of the mining children.

Cameron

[pommiekiwifruit]

Is that you Cameron? I know you have shares in that Canadian diamond mining company :-)

Synthetic diamonds

[Paul Johnson]

It's now possible to make reasonable quality diamonds in presses. They are having some problems with yellow inclusions, but these will probably be overcome in the future (and anyway its probably possible to cut engagement-ring sized stones to avoid these inclusions).

De-Beers and co are trying to aim for trademarks to identify "real" diamonds (i.e. dug out of the dirt). But I don't think it will really play in the long run.

Try asking if she would prefer an expensive honeymoon instead. That will also be a good reply to obnoxious women shoving huge rocks under her nose and saying "where's yours then?". You/she can just say "we decided to spend the money on a 5 star hotel in [Distant place]" and then gush about how wonderful it all was. Going to interesting places beats shiny rocks every time.

Paul.

Diamonds are stupid

[Bartmoss]

Some girls will only marry you for a diamond ring;
Some expect fast cars;
Some expect expensive vacations;
Some expect a house;
And some want you to get a visa.

And you know what? Screw them all.

A woman who dates me can expect my love, care, loyality, dedication, and so on. But she can not expect anything of the above. I share what I have, I give when I can, but I do so because I feel like doing it and not because if it's expected of me. I dislike birthdays and christmas for the same reason. It's "mandatory" to get the person a gift. I hate that.

Diamonds are forever...

[Kindaian]

I would buy diamonds if:

a) they where the cheaper industrial products that the russians seam to exceel in doing;

b) would need them for something;

c) the price fits the marchandise (which in the case of natural diamonds doesn't, because its a piece of carbon too expensive for its worth);

Cheers...

Cubic Zirconium

[scottme]

I have been married 20 years. At the time we got engaged, we bought a diamond engagement ring (joint decision, split the cost) but even so we could only afford a small diamond. But it was a symbolic thing, and my wife wore it and never took it off unless she absolutely had to.

Then around five years ago the damn stone fell out and was lost. We discussed what to do about it. We could now afford a much larger real diamond, so that was an option. But reviewing the prices and comparing them with some of the substitutes now available, there really was no contest: we agreed that diamonds were overpriced and the replacement would be cubic zirconium.

Since then I've seen and would consider a moissanite jewel, but probably would stick with the CZ choice. While in some gem-geeky respects moissanite claims to be superior to diamond, there seems to be little cost saving - rather it is promoted as something that costs pretty much the same as diamond but is "better".

The real challenge I had was to find a CZ ring in which the stone was not grossly and vulgarly oversized, and where the ring itself was made from something better than "cheap" 9ct gold. I eventually bought an elegant 18K gold ring with a solitaire CZ stone of around 1 carat size. It cost a fraction (like 10%) of what the same-sized real diamond ring would have cost, and to pretty much everyone's casual glance it looks like a decent-sized diamond.

My wife loves it, shows it off, and freely admits it isn't a diamond. I don't know if this says anything about the nature or quality of our relationship, or the people we now are versus what we once were -- you can decide.

Make Your Own

[stuphi]

Sentiment is what your future wife wants. Find a piece of Titanium, borrow a lathe and craft your own ring. You can then give her somthing that is truly unique, and has taken real time and real effort. For years to come she would apreciate it.

Find a craft worker.

[iconfly]

Regardless of the material. Buy her something unique. Find a local jewellery maker. Spend your money on the labour of the ring. Support the local maker/designer. Get your girl something special.
With luck and your knowledge of your lady it will truly be a love token.
And, good luck for the future!!!

Just say NO...

[angelos]

I refused to buy the engagement ring (so no diamonds at all), as I refused to spend such a large amount of cash on something with such a short lifespan - sure, she'll wear it after we're married but she won't actually be 'engaged' anymore will she?

I did however let her claw back her status amongst her peer group by allowing her to rape my finances on the wedding band which she got to pick herself.

I get the occasional snide comment from her/friends but overall I'm happy with the outcome and choices made.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[CrazyDuke]

Actually, recalling from my college "Love and Marrage" class, the women there basically told us men they considered flowers an "I fucked up" gift.

Advertising going too far!

[The_Guv'na]

N. W. Ayer outlined a subtle program that included arranging for lecturers to visit high schools across the country. "All of these lectures revolve around the diamond engagement ring, and are reaching thousands of girls in their assemblies, classes and informal meetings in our leading educational institutions," the agency explained in a memorandum to De Beers.

All together now: "We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control" (Pink Floyd - Another Brick In The Wall)

Does anyone else think that this is "advertising" going too far?

Ali

Be different. Its if you love eachothers that coun

[rodac]

Weird that love is measured in monetary terms on how much you just wasted on a thing. Why not do something different? Myself got plain, no ecoration, no inscription, white-gold rings for us when me and my wife married (after 10 years). Or perhaps a ring in stainless steel? Its only a symbol. what matters is if you love each other or not. Yes. I could afford to get my wife a $100.000 ring if my life depended on it, but WHY? WHY waste perfectly good mone on an object that has no meaning neither any reasonable use?

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[earthpig]

man this is a popular article. some important topics sometimes seem barely to break 100 posts. this trivial one, wow, 1500+ posts.

for me i try to payattention to what my girlfriend likes wants etc. but i also have things that are important to me. my biggest is i don't go in for valentine's day. it's the concept, the marketing and the insincerity of the entire day i guess. i like to get flowers and do special things for her but because they mean something coming from the heart not some commercial telling me it's now the time.

i let a gril know this up front so hopefully there won't be too many bad feelings there. but the artificalness of the entire thing puts me off. i think the same goes for the diamond. to me there are many more meaninful ways of showing caring commitment etc. symbols are important, but shouldn't be a substitute for . . . .

heck, i lost my train of thought. not too much sleep last night.

It's even worse than that

[walterbyrd]

I saw someting on 60 minutes (or something) about this tribe in South Africa that goes around hacking the arms off the diamond mine workers. The diamond companies do little to protect their workers.

Horrible business, I want no part of it.

4th and looooooooong

[Dark Demon]

I say punt and let your defense win the game.

Better intrinsic value..

[_fuudstix]

Most sources say, and I have no reason to doubt them, that the value of diamonds is strictly controlled by DeBeers. That's why buying prices remain high, and there is no resale value. On the other hand, there are some gem alternatives. Rubys, emeralds, and saphires are all more rare that diamonds, are not controlled by DeBeers, and as a result, have higher resale value. Another alternative is pearls. They are not as rare, but they are also not as "permanent" (pearls will degrade after a number of years - as do many relationships). Another alternative is a good quality Australian fire opal - quite spectacular.

Try an alternative!

[.milfox]

Me and my wife's wedding rings have synthetic saphires in them.

Her's was 6mm across, is absolutely crystal clear *G*, a deep dark blue, and looks awesome. It only ran us about $300 too, so that's not that bad a deal.

We spent the rest of the money on our rings on custom gold and platinum rings from a local jewelsmith.

So no, I don't think that diamonds are worth the effort.

Garnets

[ek_adam]

I was very lucky. My girlfriend (now my wife) liked garnets more than diamonds and told me so.

Are they worth the cost?

[quintessent]

No.

A Simple Plan

[harmonics]

I had the same struggles not long ago, and can share with you my plan.

Like any good geek I decided the best way to do it is to use an online diamond wholesaler. I recommend www.bluenile.com. Use them to determine the diamond(s) you want, then order them (no sales tax).

This should get you the diamonds for a deal, take them to a local jeweler and order an appraisal, it should be about $50 dollars or so. If they don't at least appraise to what you paid for them return them to BlueNile.com. They have an exceptional return policy.

Once your done appraising them, offer the work to the same local jeweler. Most of the time you'll be surprised with the excellent work and fair price to assemble the ring.

Upon completion, and BEFORE you deliver the ring. I recommend having the Jeweler give you a certified appraisal of the ring. Remember, the ring is most likely worth more than the sum of it's parts.

Take this appraisal to your insurer and ask about a floater policy for this jeweler. Trust me, don't wait until after you give it to her, you'll sweat bullets waiting for the insurance coverage.

Now, how did I do with this same plan. I got a $4,500 ring for less than half that.

Good Luck!

If you get confused on your C's, call the BlueNile.com guys/girls, they will not try to oversell you, atleast they didn't try with me.

Harmonics

Simple answer: Recycle!

[X!0mbarg]

Sure, it sounds trite, but just listen for a moment.

When it was My turn at the plate, my mother dug out her jewlery box, and, lo-and-behold, produced my Grandmother's engagement ring! It had a 1/4 ct full cut, blue-clear, with no less than 6 1/2 cut 1/8th ct diamonds with it.

Suffice it to say, my wife was Well-Pleased with a diamond that had been in the family for the better part of a century.

Cost to me: $300 for a new ring set (including the wedding bands)

Moral to this story: Hit up the Parents/Grandparents for one! You just might have some good rocks out there! (Just don't dig up any releative out of the dirt ;)

Education

[snatchitup]

Don't you realize that courting is all about brain-washing, er uh, educatiing your soon to be mate? I'm proud to report I easily turned my girlfriend into a Right-wing Capitalist conservative before I even thought of marrying her. We're now happily married with 3 kids for 6 years.

This really isn't flamebait.

I went and bought her a Saphire ring for $169, and that's it. In addition I bought her a beautiful $900 Raymond Weil watch, and a $200 framed print that to this day hangs in our dining room.

We got wedding bands, but I lost mine within 6 months and she lost hers in 2 years. I've been going ringless for all these years, even at a 100k+ salary.

Once you get the little kids running around, your wife will realize there are so many more important things to spend money on, perhaps, private schools, country club memberships, automobiles. We really never even talk about the subject of rings.

Just buy the damn diamond ...

[jal1234567890]

And a hefty gold ring to put it on, with gold from Anglo-American. Then the gold price goes up, the JSE share prices go up, and we're all happy. Also, none of De Beers diamonds come from 'conflict' areas - most still come from South Africa, and a lot come from Botswana. That's why they burn the DB logo onto it, to identify them. And the miners here are not oppressed - maby the living conditions aren't so good, but at least they have a job. Most of the mining is automatic, with the silt being dredged up and sorted by machine using xrays and image processing. And I woudn't buy Canadian diamonds with polar bears on them - they are probably wiping out the bears habitat when they mine them.

Go Legacy

[Skarekrough]

Havng been led to the truth about DeBeers years ago I was naturally apprehensive when it came time to consider what the plan would be for popping the question to my now wife. However, I was in a very fortunate situation; a great grandmother had left a pair of diamond earrings to both my brother and myself. Since my ear-ware leans more towards surgical stainless steel (nyuk...nyuk) than precious stones it kind of made sense; have the stone in the earrling put it a setting for a ring. Since the stone was fairly large it didn't look out of place. It was also a much older stone, well before DeBeers had ratcheted up their flagrant human rights abuses so I felt like I wasn't feeding into the industry. It also meant alot to my wife because it was a family heirloom; she got a diamond, but it was also symbolic of the rich family history she was becoming part of by saying "yes" as well (and she did say "yes"....almost before I had the chance to drop to the knee and everything)..

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[dswan69]

Rubbish, there's no reason to kowtow to a woman's every whim, especially when her idiotic desire for a worthless rock is contributing to war and famine. If she insists, then give her one and every day remind her that children were tortured and murdered so she could carry around a piece of useless junk.

Titanium

[N8F8]

A few years ago, when everything wasn't made of titanium, my friend had a set of titanium engagement rings made from titanium pipe stock by his uncle (who worked from a defense contractor).

The only problem was the only way he knew to prove to anyone it was titanium was to put it in a vice at work and let someone crank on it.

Diamonds are completely worthless

[dswan69]

They are extremely abundant and have no intrinsic value, although they can be quite useful. They are only expensive because criminals like De Beers artificially control the supply. Worse these companies actively promote war in Africa to help them exploit the diamonds - they are currently involved in a scam where they have been underpaying Namibia for its diamonds and are now threatening the Namibian government if they try to ascertain what others besides De Beers would pay.

And anyone who has ever tried to resell a wedding ring will tell you that they are completely worthless - you might just as well have handed your money over to the jeweller in exchange for a piece of granite.

Diamonds are NOT forever...... Really! Its physics

[RobertNotBob]

Well, ok chemestry actually.

Listen, everybody knows that Diamonds are made when coal (carbon) is compressed under great pressure for very long times. BUT what most people ignore is that when you remove the pressure ( by, say, digging it out of the ground) it turns right back to coal!

No kidding.

Of course it takes the same ammount of time ( hundreds of lifetimes) but every diamond you have ever seen is turning to coal right before your very eyes.

Is THAT the symbol you want to choose for the love of your life?

Here's an alternative. . .

[bplipschitz]

It doesn't get away from the fact that she will be wearing a diamond, but does prevent any more money flowing into that particular industry.

Get an heirloom. Ask your folks to see if there are any old diamonds from Great Grandma/pa Great Uncle [whatever] that are in a safe deposit box somewhere. That's what I did. My wife has a real nice 1/2 carat diamond that was my grandfather's. Not the greatest diamond [tiny little chunk of carbon in the middle], but has sentimental value, and I only had to pay for the setting/ring, not the rock.

Pawn shops would offer the same moral out, but you'd plunk down a little more cash.

rather than diamonds

[lymang]

well, if your fiancee is not dead-set on a diamond, I think there are numerous things you can get her as an engagement gift that are far wiser... Get her a nice simple gold or silver ring (basically as a token, so to speak) and then do something smarter with the diamond money.. Put the money in a CD or a savings account, and save it for the down payment on a house! For Crissakes... our whole culture has fallen prey to that stupid advertising campaign and for some reason many women feel compelled to have a huge rock on their finger. I think it would be far wiser to be able to buy your first house together without having to beg your parents to co-sign a loan, or have your in-laws lend you the down payment.... Shit, even investment art would be a better (and more morally clean, unless you buy some stolen piece) than a diamond. Don't buy into that crap.

Buy Used

[RembrandtX]

I bought my wife's diamond used.

It was a drizzily afternoon in Nottingham UK.
She was visiting me for the week. We were in an antique jewlery shop, and I saw a ring that was VERY cool looking.

Asked the shop keep how much ($500 quid/about $750 US) and if he could have it sized.

The ring was over 130 years old, had a unique setting (since they were all hand made)called a king's setting or something or other. And the diamond itself was NOT machine cut.

That means it had deeper facits (more sparkle) and all that was done by a victorian man with a small wooden chisle and hammer.

MUCH cooler than the stamped out , over priced, artificially demanded rings now adays.

It is a token . . .

[python_rocks]

from dictionary.com token Pronunciation Key (tkn) n. Something serving as an indication, proof, or expression of something else; a sign The dollar value is meaningless - it is what it represents that gives its value.

avoiding conflict diamonds

[mebock]

If you want to get her an engagement ring but your primary concern is the source of the stones, you have several options:

Option 1: Buy a ring from an estate jeweler, something with an "old European cut". This cut fell out of favor around World War I, so there is no profit for anyone but the jeweler. OEC diamonds are also less expensive than similarly-sized modern stones.

Option 2: Buy a Canadian diamond.

Option 3: Get her the colored stone (emerald, etc.) of her choice.

Why not try an artificial diamond?

[Viceice]

We've been able to produce Jewel grade diamonds in a lab for more then 40 years. Sure, it does cost more, but at least it isn't a 'blood' diamond.

Re:Skip the whole marriage nonsense

[sk8tr]

i agree. i'm married and our relationship just got worse after we got married. What did marriage accomplish? Nothing. We've talked about it and both agree we would be happier not being married. Don't assume that the next "logical" step in your relationship is marriage. The next step is probably to get to know her intimately. You can never know someone perfectly because its a moving target but get to know her innermost desires and thoughts. If you can communicate at that level you will be happier than engaging in silly societal games like marriage.

Conscience vs. Tradition

[trill hellboinker]

I've been married for almost two years now (to a guy I met through userfriendly's peer2peer, natch) and woo, did we wrestle with this one.

I technically have two engagement rings. The first is silver and moonstone, absolutely gorgeous, purchased at a ren faire the day he proposed. I wore this for almost a year.

We looked at many, many sets of wedding bands to match that ring, and guess what? Wedding bands now are horrendously ugly, for the most part. We eventually went with plain, white gold bands for us both--we are both professional geeks who do some hands-on, and no one wants to scratch up a fancy wedding band. The problem then became, how do we get my engagement ring to go with it? I have very small fingers, and that ring would have had to have been welded to my wedding band for them both to stay on without twisting around because the ring was so skinny. Eventually we gave in and purchased a plain gold band with a .34 carat diamond on it, the same width as my wedding band, and now I can wear them both without one spinning wildly around my finger.

The other part of this was his parents. They are from a rural town in Texas and did not take our engagement seriously without a diamond. They are also the reason why we had a fairly traditional wedding with tons of people we didn't know. If we had it to do over again.....we would have custom designed wedding bands. I still love my original engagement ring and wear it often.

we are not alone in skipping the marriage tax...

[Hooya]

i have always questioned 'diamonds'. after all it's only an example of a fantastic marketing campaign by DeBeers. i always thought that i was kinda alone in thinking that. and that diamonds after all had some value. relieved to see other people skipping (or trying to at least) on the 'marriage tax' to DeBeers. i had to buy my now wife a diamond ring only because of my parents who thought it would be socially unaccetable to not have one. but my wife doesn't wear rings. she wears one with her birthstone and is very cool with me not wearing anything. her reason -- if the marriage is held together only by the ring that's a pretty sad pathetic marriage. i've been 'surprising' her with books instead. (she's really into genetics.)

jeez

[Hard_Code]

It's just a rock. Give her a pebble. It's all the same. If she wants to marry you because of the baubles you can collect and provide her I suggest you tell her to piss off immediately. Or perhaps she can save up her money and get her own fucking shiny rock.

Did you TALK To your girlfriend?

[Havokmon]

There are some basic things to know, that have NOTHING to do with your apparent youth-inspired "do the world some good" furvor:

1. Does SHE want a diamond?
2. Does she want an EXPENSIVE diamond?

First, if she wants an diamond, get her one.
Second, if she wants an EXPENSIVE diamond, get a new girlfriend, because she's just too materialistic.

I paid the same amount for the ring, (Don't be fooled, a REAL engagement ring, is just the half of the wedding ring that has the diamonds on it) as I paid for the honeymoon. Personally, I think that's a good mix.

I didn't buy a ring and my wife LOVES me

[whimbrel]

Finally a thread that made me comment (even worse, made me read the comments).

I knew this was marketing BS right from the start. What if I told you that in order to prove your love to your wife you needed to spend two months salary on my consulting services? Would seem a little self-serving, huh? And everyone thinks it's a tradition when in reality this 'tradition' is less than 100 years old. Similar social marketing schemes today have convinced everyone they 'need' a new car (finance it of course), and that borrowing money up to their necks is a good way to live.

When we got engaged, I bought my wife a used car instead to replace the jalopy she drove. And we bought our wedding rings very cheap and used at an estate store.

A marriage is made by two loving adults, not by rings or rocks or anything else.

The only ring I'd pay 2 months salary for is the one Bilbo found...

Here's a trick...

[docbrown42]

If you're going to buy a diamond for your SO, here's a trick I learned when I bought my (now) wife's engagement ring: Buy a smaller diamond, and put 2 darker colored stones around it in a jacket (rubies worked well for me, but you could use anything that's darker in color than the diamond). I had 2 marquise-cut rubies put in a jcaket around the diamond (1/3-1/2ct), and it makes the diamond look much bigger because of the contract between the stones.

Your SO will think they are getting a larger stone, and you wont have to break you wallet.

-Ed

docbrown.net
Graphic Design, Web Design, Role-Playing Games...all the good stuff

BUY HER?

[absurd_spork]

My girlfriend understands my thoughts regarding diamonds, but deep down, I'm sure she would like a diamond. Even a small one.

Then BUY HER ONE!!!!!

Am I the only one who read this as BUY HER first? Because that's pretty much what you are talking about.

Gosh, if my girlfriend wanted a nigger slave for proposition, I'd not give her one out of principle. If she insists upon a diamond and it's against your principles, ask yourself what your principles mean to you.

Advise from an old married man (well oldish)

[Zerbey]

Congratulations to you both!

I got engaged in the #quake2 channel on Gameslink, so I didn't need to buy a Diamond Ring at the time... :-) Not that I'm suggesting you propose online (unless you're lucky enough to be marrying a fellow geek), our circumstances where very unique - she was in Florida, I was in England at the time.

My Mother has a ruby on her engagement ring that she would never trade for anything else. I know plenty of women who have different stones on their engagement rings. I suggest you talk it over with your girlfriend and see what she wants. Now, if you she decides she really wants a diamond engagement ring then well, you're just going to have to deal with it.

Cubix Zerconi

[EvilTwinSkippy]

My wife and I were broke when we got engaged.

We both agreed that cubic was the way to go. The trick was to pick a discreet, mortal sized rock rather than the huge guady things that cubic is normally packaged with.

I even took her to the jewler to pick it out, er have it sized. ;)

Of course, it doesn't hurt that she's an engineer and so am I....

For the record, no one ever knew it was cubic. Fawning relatives always told us how beautiful it was. She liked it because it had perfect clarity, which is hard to find in real diamonds.

She also informs me that diamonds are not forever. The have an high-maintenance crystal structure that degrades to graphite in a few million years or so.

Anything a bit newer?

[lurvdrum]

The article concerning De Beers manipulation of the diamond market was a good read but it took me quite a while to realise it is twenty years old! Has anyone got a link to a more recent appraisal of De Beers / the diamond market?

Yes, they are worth it.

[Demon10000]

When I asked my woman to marry me, I originaly gave her a locket. It had a picture of me, a picture of her, and two empty spots for pictures of our future children.

She loved it. But, about 3 months of trying to explain what an engagement locket was wore her down. She would look at everyone elses diamond engagement ring with envy.

I eventually broke down and bought her a diamond ring. I realize now that I should have done that from the start. I'm very glad that I did, and I would definately say that it was worth the money.

Not onerous?

[dark-nl]

If you bought a diamond you could afford, then you didn't go with tradition :-)

Re:Not onerous?

[ergo98]

Hehe, you bring up a superb point: DeBeers and friends have been trying to convince people that not only is a diamond required, but that one must spend exorbitant amounts -I'm hardly surprized that they'll try this, and I won't be surprized if they've upped it to "tell her you love her...with a two year salary diamond ring..." in the coming couple of years. Of course they are getting ridiculous as there are very real practical limits for the size of a diamond, at least in most people's taste (I'm sorry, folks, but a giant stone sticking an inch off of the lady's hand just looks absurd : It either looks oversized and gaudy, or like a likely cubic zirconia knockoff).

Re:Not onerous?

[dark-nl]

I don't think the gems will get bigger. They're found, after all -- there's no way to increase the average size of diamonds. Instead, they will get more expensive, thus "proving" their value as an investment.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Keith_Beef]

Cut flowers are not necessarily more ethical than diamonds...

Tons of cut flowers are flown into Europe and North America each day from third world countries which allow such things as:

• carcinogenic insecticides and fungicides,
• intimidation of, and violence towards, workers,
• er, other nasty things that aren't allowed in Europe.

Many of those sold in Europe are flown in to the Netherlands, then people think they are buying Dutch flowers!

Genetically speaking...

[budalite]

If you wish to create a small being that has your genes, you *must* buy the diamond.

Re:wrong

[Pxtl]

I would love to see the Israelis do this, if they used large enough weaponry - the blast radius and fallout would nicely blanket the whole country, giving the Israelis proper punishment for Zionism.

Only One Alternative

[JeffRC]

The only alternative I know of to a diamond engagement ring is an inflatable love doll. Most women I know are set on that diamond ring.

[Heirloom Diamond]

[goodconsumer]

Start your own tradition to combat the "well orchestrated advertising campaign" of cartels. Use the diamonds from your grandmothers (assuming they passed away) or mothers ring. This also has the advantage of being cheaper since you don't have to pay for the diamonds.

One clear answer

[{tele}machus_*1]

There's a lot of good responses here. But there are two kinds of responses that stand out the most: (1) "My wife and I were like-minded in our desire to not follow the herd, and we decided together on an alternative to a 'traditional' diamond." (2) "Don't be a fool. Everyone buys a diamond. No one will understand if you don't buy a diamond. She's expecting a diamond." The only thing those responses have in common is "her." Why are you asking us? Ask her. If you think she secretly wants a diamond, but is unwilling to tell you, you have more serious problems than whether or not to buy the diamond (both on her end and your end). In the end, you should give her something that will make her happy (and by making her happy, you should be happy), not something that will satisfy your overdeveloped sense of world guilt.

Two Months Salary

[FJ]

Rember, according to the rules you are to spend two months salary on the ring. That's two months gross salary, not net.

I recommend working at a lemonaid stand for the two months when you calculate this. On a good day you could clear $5. ;)

Diamonds Are A Monopoly...

[tposton]

...and they will even tell you as much. The way I figure it, no one really cares, because diamonds are a luxury item, not a necessity. Buy her the ring; remember, you'll be sleeping next to her for a long time..........

It's what she thinks that counts

[necrognome]

"Um, honey? I read on /. that diamonds are evil, so I got you a Radeon 9700 instead." Yeah, that will go over really well...

Moissanite is just plain cool

[r0wan]

Speaking as a member of the feminine persuasion, I chose moissanite for my replacement engagement ring (original got damaged).

I couldn't stomach the idea of dropping a serious chunk of change on something that I would basically just wear on my finger, but I wanted a large stone because I have big hands (I'm 5'11"). A 2.3 carat moissanite was more than large enough, seriously cheap (got it from a dealer, not a retail store) and very durable (9.5 compared to a diamonds' 10)

Plus the technology/science behind the stone was appealing to my somewhat geekish tendencies.

r0wan

My long time girlfriend's opinions on diamond ring

[phylus]

She comes from a tradition that I think emphasizes physical things. She completely 100% expects for me to buy her a multi-thousand dollar engagement ring, to be shortly followed by a multi-thousand dollar wedding ring.

I told her that this was just simply not an option. I do love her, but even with all moral arguments aside, $10000+ for two little things to wear on your fingers? I posited to her that it would be so much more useful to put the money into something else, like a home or a bank somewhere. This seemed to have no effect on her.

She simply responded with, "but I want to have rings to wear..." I really do love her, but my god I can't understand how she can be that in love with a completely fictitiously inflated diamond ring.

I'm planning to get her an extremely nice ring in platinum, and it will most likely unfortunately have a nice diamond on it or I really do believe she will never, ever forgive me.

It's just the reality with some women, it's her culture (she's Iranian, they seem to have this thing for public display of wealth, and a diamond seems to count).

How I saved money and ethics

[withak53]

I used a local jewelry designer.
The owner of the store knows exactly where they buy the diamonds from.
For some reason local jewelry designers are much less expensive.
I designed my wife's ring based on conversations with her. 1/4 k diamond, two sapphires, white gold. It cost $1400. My wedding ring was purchased from the same store and was based on her ring. We were able to save money by using stones from jewelry that we owned. My ring was $400.
The same two rings would have over $3000 total in a chain store.

What I did

[sanoke2]

28 years ago when my wife and I got engaged, I didn't have much money or regard for tradition (still don't). What I did was melt down 8 silver quarters into a solid rod that I then fashioned into a bracelet. It took a lot of time and effort to make it since I'm not a jeweler and I've never done anything like it since. My wife loves it and still wears it today. The point is that if you can craft something with your own hands that lasts, that may actually have more meaning than something you buy.

One word......

[Cobra]

Moissanite. All the qualaties of a diamond without the price. When I got engaged to my wife, we discussed the options. She looked at moissanite and agreed that it looked promising. One trip to a jeweler and she was sold. A stone equivalent to a 1 carat diamond cost ~$300. No one that has seen her ring has had any idea that it was not a real diamond. She loves it and I loved the lower price.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[invenustus]

When flowers are "arranged" in a yard, they generally haven't been cut off from the organism they belong to. The organism is living there.

Buck Up

[$pastic-colon]

Maybe this has been said...Why does an engagement ring have to be a diamond? There are plenty of other precious stones. What's important is your pain. All they are really testing is willingness to self sacrifice. She needs to know that if and when the time comes you will throw your body in front of a bus to save her future baby. This isn't a tradition, it is quite primal. Get used to spending your money on worthless things. In this situation being poor is an advantage. Just show her your tax return then show her the receipt for the ring (which of course you spent half your income on). Regardless of where this tradition came from it's proven the test of time.

I bought her birthstone...

[wyren]

My wife, gifted in the art of subtle hints, managed to convince me over time that she had no interest in diamonds at all. I was also able to confirm this with several of her longtime friends, and after some thought I arrived at a conclusion: If she wanted anything more than a simple band of gold, it would be a ring with her birthstone (emerald.) I finally found a ring with an emerald centerprice, with a few (much smaller) diamonds on either side. Thus, the diamond "tradition" was covered, for those that might otherwise have been critical, and she received a ring that was truly "hers" in the sense that it was personal and somewhat unique. I assure you that she was every bit as speechless when she opened the box. She still smiles every time she has the ring cleaned, and every time someone says "Ooo! May I see your ring? How unique!" or similar.

Several others have commented that the matter of engagement rings is all about pleasing your partner, and they're absolutely right. This kind of ring is more than a "token" or a simple "tradition"---it's a very personal gift. A gift this expensive *should* be something she will cherish for the rest of her life. If you can find such a special gift without compromising your principles, so much the better.

Good luck... I hope she says "yes!" :)

Re:I bought her birthstone...

[trailerparkcassanova]

Good for you and your wife. Diamonds are a more recent (post-WWII) "tradition". Before this, if an engagement ring was given it at all, it was typically the womans birthstone.

Blue topaz

[bns21]

Look at semi-precious stones -- my wife and I decided on a matching pair of blue topaz stones, 'brilliance cut', and had a small jeweller make them into rings. (The jewelry chains offered very little choice, and were far more expensive too.)

Blue topaz has a hardness of 8 (i.e. very hard), and 5 years on the rings are still going strong, even though we're both quite rough with them. I guess we're about due for an upgrade though -- maybe peridot or tourmaline this time!

Speaking as a geeky wife...

[gegi]

my engagement ring was not a diamond, and I do not feel cheated *at all*. My ring is far more special. Why? Because we went antique-jewelry shopping! :) I like nifty old stuff, you see. Sufficient poking around let us eventually turn up a very pretty ring with my birthstone that is, I think, a lot more interesting and attractive than a new diamond ring could ever be. (Alas, I don't wear it much, because rings interfere with my typing.)

how about a pick up truck, or is that southern

[scottie42]

My brother asked his wife what kinda diamond she wanted when they got ingaged and she told him that she wanted a blue-diamond colored pickup truck, cost way more than any diamond and she gets a lot of use out of it, she has a couple of horses and does biological research. So there is one alternative.

other jewelry

[digdougSTL]

I got my fiancee (now my wife) a beautiful pearl necklace as an engagement present. She was very happy with it. She later admitted wanting a diamond but didn't seem to resent me about it once I explained my reason for not getting one. (ethical as opposed to fiscal). If you feel buying diamonds is wrong, don't do so. You wouldn't get her a crack rock and a black market baby as an engagement present, why buy a stone with an almost equally dirty history?

Go for a Sapphire

[Zopilote]

Here's what I did. I took my girlfriend to several jewelry shops and let her point out to me the rings she liked. The whole thing was great fun for her, trying on rings and viewing how they looked on her hand. Meanwhile, I memorized the looks of the rings she liked best.

Then, I designed a ring that had the best features of all of them (basically I just drew up my ideas freehand). I sent the designs to my brother, who is an apprentice jeweler, and had him make the ring out of platinum. For the stones, I chose a large natural Yogo sapphire. These are very rare natural sapphires found only in Montana, and are deemed to be among the most beautiful sapphires in the world due to their perfect color. The one I chose was almost as expensive as a diamond of equal size (around $3k) and will hold its value much better. On each side of the sapphire I had him mount a small diamond (about 0.2 carat) which really accented the look.

Let me tell you, she loved the ring! Not only was it different and beautiful because of the sapphire, it was custom-designed by me. She proudly showed it off to all her friends, who had nothing to say once they saw it and heard that I had designed it myself. In fact, some of them even turned to their boyfriends/husbands and impishly asked them why they couldn't do something that sweet. Just like girls!

As guys, sometimes we may feel oppressed by what we view as the irrational requirements of our beloved better halves. But if you take to it with a good attitude and do something really original, it can be fun for you too. It certainly was for me!

You can check out pictures of the ring here.

How early is the diamond ring?

[Chacham]

How early is the diamond ring?

I know of a reference circa 1200(?) on the tradition (Ran; Kiddushin). It specifically talks about why a gem (on a ring) is given at engagement, and only a plain ring at the wedding. My assumption is that it is much older than that.

You're just picking up on this now?

[GrayCalx]

Diamonds have been over priced for years, are marked up higher than any other jewel specifically because of the engagement ring tradition, and are about as time-honored as Valentines day. If you're just picking up on this now, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

love and devotion

[The Fun Guy]

I proposed to my girlfriend when we were both in college, and I had very little money. I was going to go to graduate school, and knew I wouldn't have any money for a long time. The ring was a modestly sized garnet, in a simple gold setting, $50 at Sears. Up to that time, it was probably the most money I'd every spent on jewelry.

She loved it, because of what it represented. She knew I had more prospects than money, and she was able to see the ring for what it meant, rather than what it was composed of chemically. She told me that she was glad I hadn't blown a ton of dough on a big ring I couldn't really afford, because she didn't want to start our married life in debt for something that wouldn't add to quality of life the way a car, house, blender, etc. would. Our wedding was great, our marriage has been wonderful. I would be a shabby imitation of myself if I didn't have her in my life.

She got a lot of really great reactions to the ring, surprisingly. A red stone for an engagement ring is unusual enough to be eye-catching. It's a dark red garnet, and a lot of people asked if it was a ruby. She's not ashamed of her ring, and always told them that it's a garnet, a semi-precious stone. I suppose there's a certain cache in that, a ring who's value is so purely symbolic, because she often saw women with big diamond rings in platinum settings get jealous.

We've been married 11 years, now. Our third child, a little girl, was born 8 weeks ago, and our two boys are bright, energetic, handsome kids. Our love is flourishing. As for the ring, my wife accidentally dropped it over the railing from the third tier at Wrigley Field a month after we were married, still not used to wearing it. By some miracle, we found it on the pavement outside the park; one of the prongs holding the garnet in place got bent, but the stone was OK. After a few years, the thin gold band was wearing through, and the bent prong would catch on fabric, and she had to be really careful with it. For our 5 year anniversary, I suggested we get her a higher quality ring. OK, but she wouldn't hear of replacing her garnet. We had the stone reset in a better quality band, flanked with a pair of small diamonds. We'd saved up some money, despite both of us being in graduate school at that point, and went with diamonds for an aesthic reason - they set off the garnet and made it appear even more dark and lustrous.

When I finished my PhD, and got a postdoc position, with my first salary that didn't start with a "1", I wanted to adorne my wife, to gild the lily, give her something beatuiful and extravagant and utterly impractical, to make up for the years of more practical and useful gifts. She selected small diamond stud earrings... because our new baby boy kept grabbing at the long, dangling earrings she typically wore. Sensible, even in her extravagances. What a wife.

I got a real job three years ago, and we moved and bought a house. For our 10th anniversary, we were still broke from buying the house. For our 11th anniversary, our 4-week old baby let us sleep for 6 hours straight. It was wonderful. After a few raises and promotions, I've got some money now. I suggested to my wife that we get her some more jewelry, maybe some rubies or emeralds to set off her eyes. With a kiss and a hug, she handed me a stack of brochures about savings plans for college tuition, and said that there were more important things. What a wife.

With 300+ comments already attached to this /. topic, I know nobody is going to read this. It's like those sand paintings that are created in order to celebrate what *is*, not in the expectation that they will be responded to, or become a permanat exhibit. I just wanted to declare to the world that the quality of your love is so very much more important than the chemical composition of the ring that symbolizes it.

Re:love and devotion

[Leven Valera]

She's definitely a keeper.

LV

Re:love and devotion

[grammar nazi]

I read your comment... and enough others have read it that it moderated to +5.

This one deserve a +6.

Re:love and devotion

[Bob Uhl]

Wow--I hope someday I can find the kind of happiness y'all seem to have.

Inflated prices

[LlamaDragon]

I read an interesting article in National Geographic some time back about the inflated cost of diamonds and how that really might be something of a myth. According to the article there have been quite a few independent diamond sellers popping up in the last few years and at times have caused some problems for DeBeers to the point where DeBeers actually experienced a brief diamond shortage as they had to drop their prices to compete. By raising their prices back up some they manage to keep supply and demand in line.

Now maybe people saw this as prices dropping from their "normal" levels and ran out to get a deal on a diamond, when in fact prices were dropping to a normal level.

Whether it's based on artificially high "normal" diamond prices or not, there is some market controlled pricing.

And one more little side note, as far as the real value of diamonds, huge diamond mines pull very few large usable stones out of the ground. Most diamonds, when cut and polished, are pretty small (maybe .25 carat or smaller, I don't remember exactly). Finding a chunk of rock that can produce a big (greater than 1 carat) diamond is pretty rare. In my case, my wife has small hands and didn't want a huge rock to drag around so a nice .5 carat diamond was perfect (and didn't cost the outrageous 2-3 months salary men are "supposed to spend" on engagement rings).

~LD

Advice from experience

[ivrcti]

First my qualifications: I have been married for 16 years to one wonderful woman. We have 4 kids.(OK I'm older than most /. ers) I can honestly say, that I have loved every minute of our marriage. I love making this woman happy and she makes me grin like a five year old in a candy store. My advice: Look seriously at your relationship. If you can't talk about the realities of engagement and marriage honestly and openly, step back and improve the relationship before moving forward. Then, talk with her and find out what she would like. That doesn't have to be a matter-of-fact, in your face arguement. Be smart and LISTEN (by the way, that's what women REALLY want.) Then do whatever you can really afford to make her dreams come true. Put some thought into it. Make it original and meaningful. The fore-thought must show through! My story: I knew my gf came from a very traditional background. She worked with a gossipy bunch. She isn't materialistic. She IS sentimental. I wanted to give her a ring and an EXPERIENCE she could brag about to her friends and would always remember. Since my natural father died when I was young, my mom gave me her rings from him. I had them cleaned up and packeged, etc. Since the ring wasn't expensive I had some money to spend on the engagement night. (How you ask IS important.) I took her to a fancy seafood dinner (her favorite), then a fun play. On the way home, I stopped at an old fashioned park by the lake. There under the moonlight, we sat on a park bench under a small streetlight. The old oak trees were draped with spanish moss. I knelt down on one knee, swallowed hard and asked. She still brags about that night to her friends! So: remember the ring is a symbol. Symbols mean something to very specific people. Find the symbol that will mean the right thing to both of you. BTW, If you are trying to justify being cheap, you are doomed!

Give a Puzzle Ring instead

[NerdMachine]

When I proposed, I used a puzzle ring instead of a diamond because
1) Her father is a jeweler, so no matter what I got I would have paid too much
2) It has more entertainment value than just a ring, and we both enjoy a little mental challange
3) It's fairly attractive
4) It's cheaper than a diamond

She loved it. Except that I didn't bring the instructions with me to the Cayman Islands where I proposed and it took us all week to figure it out.

You can find sellers all over the internet with a simple search for "puzzle ring". Here's one example: http://www.puzzlering.net/ (.net? What are they thinking?)

Alternate Jewelry

[Anonymous Coward]

I gave my wife a pearl necklace. Now, every night she wants a pearl necklace. It gets tiring.

Re:Alternate Jewelry

[byolinux]

True geeks would give their wives Perl necklaces... nowhere near as tiring, but at least more people on here would appreciate it.

Rubies, Saphires, Emeralds....

[endoboy]

there are lots of gem stones in the universe...

pick one you like, and buy the girl a nice ring.

She wanted one, bottom line

[Darkstar9969]

I understand the "armchair ethics" discussion going on here but honestly, does the average (or above average) Slashdot reader spend her/his time making sure the products they buy are eco-friendly and non-exploitive? I'd venture a guess in the NO direction. If we did we'd all be working off of our first computers as the components, chips, and power supply in a computer case are some of the worst pollutants around never mind the monitors.

I was recently married and it was the happiest day of my life thus far. Our engagement during the previous year was wonderful. I purchased a very lovely, clear, almost colorless, 3/4 carat, brilliant cut diamond to go on my bride's setting of choice. The rock is beautiful, not gaudy, and hella sparkly! Lots of my wife's friends are snotty, competitive "I'm getting married before you are" types. My wife is not, however whenever the snotty friends asked to see her ring they all get quiet and comment on how beautiful it is....PERIOD!

I'm not intending this post to brag about my diamond-buying prowess, rather to submit this point: A diamond is a traditional engagement item. Before DeBeers marketing department got into our heads pearl rings were the engagement standard to the ruin of plenty of oysters. If you are worried about buying your bride-to-be a piece of jewelry that devalues when you leave the jeweler than I suggest you buy a chunk of bullion or some other "value holding" precious metal. I doubt she'll get the thrill from the ingot that she'd get showing all her friends the diamond that her man gave her as a promise of his honorable intentions.

Final point....your car devalues as soon as you drive it off the lot....do you own a horse?

As I say over and over again...MY $.02,

Resale Value?

[Folding_Bucket]

If you are making a life-long commitment, what in the world are you concerned with resale value??? When you buy computer parts, do you worry about the resale value? Are you planning on trading you soon-to-be wife in after 5 years? (and if you are, why not just recycle the ring?) You aren't buying a car, you aren't even buying an appliance.... get a GRIP! I agree that there are issues with diamonds, but being of the female persuasion, I have to admit that I have a weakness for jewelry. That doesn't mean I have to have the biggest or brightest, or even that I want a diamond. And as far as that goes, I can buy my own damned diamond! When (and if) my boyfriend proposes to me, I would much prefer that his method focus on sentiment and not on cost. (and that is only if he beats me to it) And for the record, I have given him roses on a few occasions, as well as gifts of jewelry, so I do believe that at least some of we WOMYN(joke) no longer feel that we should be only on the receiving end. Rant Over....

Gemesis is the alternative.

[Genjurosan]

After being in the same situation recently, I found The Gemesis Corp in FL. www.gemesis.com They make flawless diamonds that cost 80% less than a "real" diamond. Here is something else, a challenge that made natural diamonds and synthetic diamonds different was the way the carbon atoms were constructed, well not any more. The catch, they only make fancy yellow diamonds. I spoke at great length with someone from Gemesis, and this person more or less indicated that legal pressure from the industry (DeBeers) was stopping them from selling the clear diamonds they could produce in 72 hours in their little "crock pot." So the excuse was that they didn't have the technology to keep the quality of the clear diamonds high.

Now if anyone claims that diamonds are a fair trade, they are either in the business, or they have there head up their ass looking for one.

no trade in value?

[harryk]

Any half ass jewler (even retail) will take back the diamond that you bought from them. In addition, if you buy a certified diamond from either a third party or a retail/wholesale jewler, the only thing that you are going to be stuck with is the band. I bought my fiance a 1ct diamond, on a platinum band. I thought it was great. Certified and all. I later found out that the jewler used yellow gold to solder the band after sizing it. This makes the whole fucking ring look terrible. MAKE SURE THAT THEY USE THE RIGHT METAL FOR SOLDERING. This will make even the most perfect diamond look like crap as it reflects the yellow through the diamond.

BTW - congrats. My fiance and I are getting married on April 26th, 2003.

Beauty and Art of Jewelery

[MarvinMouse]

When I purchase jewelery for my g/fs (which unfortunately are all my ex-g/fs right now). I don't purchase it because it has a big rock on it, or because DeBeers tells me to buy diamonds.

I spend money on the jewels that show the workmanship of the jeweler, show the artistry. The stone is just an accessory of the final product. Nothing more. If I found a ring that looks beautiful that my wife would accept as an engagement ring and it didn't have any diamonds on it, I wouldn't mind.

The diamond is just an accessory to the final artistic piece that is the ring. Unfortunately, most people don't realize this, and just decide that the bigger the 'rock' is the better. When it's more a question of how much effort was placed in the creation of the piece of art that is jewelery.

The British Crown Jewels are all works of art, not because they have large 'rocks' in them. But rather because those rocks have been so well placed in a way that shows beauty and light.

Just MHO of course.

CZ

[the_rev_matt]

My wife and I resolved the conflict between the expectations of society (and more particular, certain relatives and friends) and our own tendency towards fiscal and social responsibility by getting her a stunning cubic zirconia in a very nice setting. CZ these days are good enough that it's fooled every jeweler that's seen it. We were more interested in things like hardware upgrades and a replacement for our dying car at the time. My ring is a simple white gold band, no decoration at all.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[kryonD]

While we're on the subject of cartels...the American flower industry is robbing everyone blind on any day of the year. I'm stationed over in Japan and was stunned to find I could get a dozen roses, wrapped with baby's breath and ribbons and cute paper designs and the rest of the nine yards for a paltry 1000 yen, which is about $9 at todays rate. Considering the effort the florist put into the boquette(sp?), I feel I got the roses for free and damn near gave into the urge to tip the guy. (tipping is considered rude here) ...

Diamonds are Overrated

[Edrick]

I personally didn't buy diamonds at all. I got a sapphire ring for my (now) fiancee. She loved it and found it to be just as nice as expensive diamonds would have been. In fact, she made it a point (in anticipation of my getting a ring) of telling me not to spend too much money and asked me not to buy a large, expensive ring. Maybe some traditions die hard, but this isn't the 1700's anymore. Culture is moving away from sexism as well as hard-wired, compulsory traditions. If the only possible way to express your love is to send yourself into debt, then I think something is very wrong. If your woman will only be happy with something incredibly expensive, then, again, something isn't quite right. You can say 'it's just money', and what is money when compared with love---but that simply equates money with love. I am completely leaving out the issues behind the mining of diamonds as well as the racket that makes them so damn expensive, for the sake of space. Bottom line: Society today is very, very materialistic. Despite that, serious love should not hinge on a monetary committment of any kind. Whatever you do in order to show your love, just make sure it is sincere and meaningful --- not just an "everyone else does it, so I will too" sort of thing. A diamond ring may seem special...but think of it this way, everyone and their mothers buys diamond rings, many because it is just tradition. How special is that really?

Proceed Carefully!!!

[leebrownusa]

Not sure if this is in the same boat with the diamond ring but one year I decided on a non-traditional anniversary gift for my wife. We had a new house and no land scaping. I had a crew come in and spent a ton of money on land scaping as the anniversary gift. I was told it was not personal enough by my wife. Being a guy I still don't understand this line of thought. This wife is now my ex-wife. Women, can't live with them, can't live without them. God does have a sense of humor and women are proof of it!

eBay it.

[jabonie]

I'm currently in the same position in that I'm trying to find the best bang for the buck. Over the past few months I've learned a fair bit about the 4 C's.

My girlfriend actually found that eBay has some good deals on diamonds for a decent price (much less than what you'll find in stores). There are a lot of jewlers from the NYC diamond district (although I can't confirm the validity of it) that sell on there.

Some sellers post the EGL/GIA stone ID so you can research the diamond a little more to make sure you're getting what they say you're getting. It might be something to check into.

The bonus is that I can see what kind of diamonds/rings/styles she likes every time she tells me to check out the best bargain. The only drawback is picking one and not being in the position where she says "I like this one much better than the other one."

Just having celibrated my 7th Wedding Anniversay

[lordmage]

I got lucky, my mom had an heirloom.. but I was not about to be stupid and get something else.

You "MEN" (yea me too) dont get it do you? women spend most of thier young lives dreaming of the wedding day and the most "perfect" person. They have to be done right.. It HAS to be done right.

What I do/did was simple. Gave her a Carat Diamond that was worth 5 months salary (heirloom = no cost to me), and let her plan her wedding and spend the money (3 months salary) on the wedding.

She STILL watches the wedding. That is so important.

Remember you are DOING this for LIFE. If this was second or third time around, I would say dont care. If you are so hard up about spending money on your woman, then maybe you should think about another woman or forget marriage.

Once you get married, you will have no more money anyways.

BAD MOD - THIS IS FUNNY

[WINSTANLEY]

the subject says it all.

Just make her a diamond...

[kelleher]

No, I don't mean "*Poof* - she's a diamond".

Check out Gemesis. A friend of mine designed the vessels they use to make their diamonds. Nothing bigger than 1.5 karats, but you can get nifty colors. These are real diamonds and indistinguishable from "natural" ones, but deBeers doesn't get any of your cash. This may resolve some of your ethical concerns.

Diamond Alternatives

[templeward]

When my wife and I became engaged I had very little money for a diamond. I did live along the border of Mexico however. I went to a rock shop and chose a very nice amethyst loose and had it mounted by a local craftsman in Mexico in a design I specified. My wife loved it because it was unique. Five years later she still loves it. The cost was less than the first payment on a similar sized diamond.

Alternative: Buy an Antique

[Ricdude]

This is the route I went in picking out a ring for my beloved. I found a beautiful antique ring with a diamond and two sapphires, and paid about 50% of the appraisal value. Not that either of us would ever sell the ring, but it does still have its full resale value, and has probably appreciated slightly from when I bought it. The ring also has something most modern "engagement" rings don't: character. Most modern rings are a simple band of gold, and a diamond of whatever size you can afford whacked in the middle of it. It's obvious to all around who look at the ring (and her friends will scrutinize this) how much you care about her, as judged by the size of the diamond in the middle of the ring. Find a small local antique shop, and support your local merchant. They probably shop locally, too. I guarantee not one cent from that sale went directly to fund any terrorist activity (unless you count putting gas in the shopkeeper's car).

At any rate, it's possible to get a decent ring, at a decent price, and you need not feel guilty about slave labour, or supporting terrorism. Buy a ring. Choose wisely.

The only diamonds on my wifes fingers...

[davebooth]

... are to be found in a ring I inherited from my grandmother. Whilst neither of us would have considered going out and buying them, the family connection makes the difference.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Fiver-rah]

For the record, it's not just the ugly rock that's the proof of love. It's an ugly rock whose value has been artificially inflated by a cartel whose shaky ethics lead it to extremely abusive worker practices, child labor, fomenting political unrest in countries with hostile governments, all for the point of exporting natural resources from an area while giving back as little as possible to aforementioned area. And you want to stick that on a ring and call it love. Hell, no. Not for me.

Diamonds are not romance. Even flowers are not romance (although they're far better than diamonds). Dinner at a great restaurant isn't romance. Nothing you can buy her is romance, ever, period. Romance isn't about what you spend and her wearing black slinky dresses. It's about the two of you, and as such, whatever trappings you use are specific to you.

Now, in your case you happen to think that women think differently than men on some issues. This pretty much guarantees that you're going to have relationships with women who *do* think differently. That's fine. You want to buy flowers and diamond rings, the whole while you mutter to yourself that this is stupid? Go ahead. And you think this proves that you love her, because women think differently than men and you're pandering to their point of view which is--in your words--fucking stupid?

Get over your self righteousness. The other guy is right. An ugly rock != proof of love. Proof of love is paying attention to the other person. If it so happens that she really *wants* the diamond ring (ugh), maybe buying her the ring she wants demonstrates affection. But it's not the ring, and it's certainly not your condescending attitude.

hang on

[ph0rk]

i think many of you confuse 'cheap' with 'smart enough to realize the status quo sucks'

rocks are a horrid waste, i'd sooner spend 6-10k on a car, a trip, hell, i'd rather have a gargantuan mound of charcoal, at least that carbon can cook steaks.

Maybe its just me, but i also find the concept of paying a dowry insulting, but then i also find the concept of formalized marriage stupid, archaic, and just what everyone expects me to do, so don't ask me!

Where is my ring? my fancy dinner? eh?

If we are, in theory, progressing towards equality between the sexes, then a future two-income household shouldn't have such a lopsided courting procedure.

In to symbolism? then buy something you can afford. Don't blow what could amount to all or half a down payment on a house on an ugly lump of carbon.

Re:McCartney, not Lennon

[ShavenYak]

Yes, I'll agree that there's a kind of genius there. Not everything Paul wrote was pop cheese by any means, and on the other hand Lennon had his fair share of cheesiness in the early days too. That's part of why the Beatles were so great, though: you had three songwriters with differing styles that meshed just right.

Yes, John might still be alive if he and Paul had never met, but he wouldn't have had nearly the influence that he did.

Just to go further and further off topic, my 7-month old daughter has a pull-toy attached to her stroller that plays "Imagine". I haven't yet seen pull toys with "Band On The Run" or even "My Sweet Lord" (though perhaps they have them in India?).

What matters is how your girlfriend feels

[truffle]

I don't know your girlfriend, and I don't know how she feels, but if your girlfriend has always wanted a diamond wedding ring, then symbolicly it's going to always mean a lot to her if she gets one. As much as you may rationalize not getting her one she will ultimately resent your rationalizing away her feelings.

You may think a Tux watch is a better way to show your love for her, but if she does't feel the same, it isn't.

If it is important to her, if she feels it is a symbol of marriage and represents your love and devotion, then it is one for her -- isn't that enough?

Diamond Datapoint

[TheSync]

My wife had no desire for a diamond. Here is what she wrote:

"Show her you'll love her for the next millennium." "How else can 3 months salary last an eternity?" I'm so fed up with all the millennium diamond ring commercials on TV. I'm one of the few women who doesn't understand the big deal about diamonds. I certainly wouldn't want someone to propose to me with a generic token on a generic day like New Years! Some people think that diamonds are females' way of testing their mates to see how far they will go for them (if you buy the theory that women are constantly seeking the perfect father for their children and men are constantly seeking ways of spreading their sperm). I think diamond rings exist primarily to impress others.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[sphloo]

i have on many occasions, and am still single because i have yet to find one that appriciates it, or would do the same for me. its an equality thing. if you want flowers, find a girl that likes to give them, but remember to give them in return.

Alternative

[DonkeyJimmy]

You can still get an expensive, good looking ring without all the value being put into the diamond. When I got engaged, I bought my fiancee a platinum ring with a small diamond. It (in both our opinions) is better looking then a large diamond ring, still pretty expensive (~2Gs, not bad for a college kid), and retains most of it's value (it probably had $500 or so wrapped up in the smallish sized diamond, the rest was overhead and platinum, much higher % resale). You don't have to throw away the tradition of an engagment ring, just look into alternative. I don't know about other rocks, but I'm sure you can do similar things with other rare rocks.

Not Time Honored Tradition!

[DecoDragon]

Diamonds are not time honored tradition!! It's all a DeBeer's ploy. Don't believe me, this article talks about it and has links to people like the Washington Post. DeBeer's created the diamond market and created the "tradition." They've received advertising honors for this feat!

http://www.howstuffworks.com/diamond3.htm

try something different?

[thype]

When I bought my wife her engagement ring, I had it designed. There is no other ring in the world that looks like this. We did end up putting a very, very small diamond in the top to break up the design a little, but that was more from the jewlers addition. My wife did not really care about the diamond. She enjoys this ring much more than a generic engagement ring, because less face it they all look the same, I designed and created it with her in mind.

Engagement Used Car

[bkenoah]

I was actually thinking about this recently and a diamond really isn't practical at all. I mean, engagements are temporary because they eventually lead to marriage. Why are you giving her something that will last forever?

I know if I was a girl, I would appreciate an Engagement Used Car. Something nice...like a used 80s BMW. It's practical, she can take her friends around in it, and best of all, it'll probably break down by the time you give her the wedding ring. Perfect!

gee

[ReidMaynard]

It's not like any OIL MONEY goes towards terrorism ...

Two Month's Salary

[Mignon]

The ads don't say which two months' salary, right? Here's what you do - take a leave of absence or quit your job, if you have one, for two months. Enjoy your time off - maybe even spend it with your sweetie, but do some panhandling in the subway/mall/wherever to make a little money during that time. With those two months' salary, buy your sweetie a ring. Then return to work.

It's a matter of what she wants

[intermodal]

I, fortunately, married a woman who hates gold, diamonds, and rings with stones...sterling silver all the way. and the cool thing about silver is if you pick a design that has raised stuff, it is brought out by tarnish behind and looks cool

Cut Flowers Do Suck

[orim]

Yes!!! Thank god I'm not the only one who feels this way. For some reason, I have no problem with sucking down a burger for which a cow had to die, but I hate seeing dead(dying) flowers no matter how pretty.

I guess it's cause a dead cow serves a purpose (feeding me), but cut flowers are just pretty to look at...

Then when I try to place potted plants in some strategic spots (like bedroom dressers etc), then "you just don't do that"... What's up with that???

How else can three months' salary last forever?

[luugi]

I don't get that commercial. How the hell do they encourage me to buy a diamond ring. 3 MONTHS' SALARY!

If I want three months' salary to last forever, I'll use it as a down-payment on a house.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[intermodal]

Actually, my wife refuses to participate in V-Day or other BS holidays. And I think things are better for it. That means anything I do on any day of the year is from my heart, rather than from my calendar...which makes the end result just that much more satisfying

What I did for my wife...

[ioctl]

1.17 caret Tsavorite Garnet on a custom Platinum band. It's not a diamond, it has a lot of value, and it's a beautiful green color (darker than emerald, with higher refractive index).

It doesn't have to be a big diamond

[libertynews]

When we were buying our wedding set we looked at the 'traditional' diamond center stone, and it looked stupid. We went with smaller diamonds surrounding a ruby center stone -- the combination looks great and we didn't spend our life's savings on it.

Remember that this isn't an investment. Resale value has no meaning, because you're not going to be selling it (and if you think you might then why the hell are you getting married?).

But you do have to make her happy, and that means fufulling hundreds of years of accumulated social expectations. As much as that sucks, its the reality, so get used to it.

Congratulations and Good Luck!

Better than diamonds

[TrekBody]

Hi everyone,

I just thought I would mention that there is more than you could do than just give a rock to someone to let them know how MUCH you care. When I proposed to my wife, I skimped a little bit on the rock (not much), and took her to Germany for Octoberfest when I proposed in castle Neuschwanstein. I always felt that how you propose is just as important as the ring, which should just be a reminder of the proposal.

My 2 cents!

Pawn Shops

[ken_i_m]

Pawn shops are like a bizaar where you haggle with the shop owner. View it as an exercise in social engineering. The first thing to know is that pawn shops only pay for the metal the rock is set in. Ignore what the setting looks like, look at the rock(s). Haggle like crazy. Any money you pay beyond the value of the metal is like buying bluesky. Once you have your rocks have them set in a custom ring by a small independent jeweler. She will have a one of a kind ring to wear and you will not have supported the extraction of yet another rock from the ground.

A Woman's POV

[dsoltesz]

I just got married in June after a long engagement. We decided well beforehand that not only would there be no engagement ring, but there would be no rings at all. We do not need to "brand" eachother for the world to see. For two months of his salary, we can could do something far more meaningful -- save for the next house, go on a nice honeymoon, etc.

I do happen to have several sets of heirloom engagement rings and wedding bands from other women in my line. I used one set for the ceremony more to honor the memory of the woman who wore it than to symbolize a bond between myself and my husband. I do occasionally wear any one of the sets, but frequently I wear no wedding/engagement ring at all.

I know many women who have wedding bands but no engagement rings, and a lot of engaged women who do not have engagement rings. One couple I know have rather elaborate wedding rings set with turquoise.

There are a lot of reasons to not buy a diamond engagement ring, including the ones you state. They are expensive and frivolous. To me, the idea that a man has to lay out outrageous amounts of money to "prove" his love is a shallow notion. Choose another stone that does not conflict with your ideals, or get her no engagement ring at all.

A good alternative

[Thorson]

When my wife of 23 years and I got engaged, we went to a precious stone merchant where we bought our birth stones. We then had them set into a custom made engagement ring. The cost was about the same and the ring a lot more personal.

Birthstones can be viewed at http://www.gems4friends.com/birthstones.html".

Of course, if your birthday in in April and her's is in May you're going to spend a lot more than we did.

Corporate biography of DeBeers

[hamoi]

As a DeBeers fan and former shareholder of it, this book was quite an interesting read.

Fun little DeBeers facts
- Before the "Diamond is Forever" campaign -- which is the most successful advertising campaign ever -- the majority of engagment rings were not diamonds
- Rhodesia (the former African country) was named after one of DeBeers' founders
- The first major diamond mine in South Africa is at Kimberley. As a result there is very South African women named Kimberely since it is associated with "a bit black hole".

I got lucky....

[DraKKon]

I was able to use my grandmothers ring, it had quite a lot of diamonds in it, and to make things even better.. they don't cut the diamonds like that any more and it had an antique look and feel (you know made between 1939 and 1940)..

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[AlamedaStone]

If you're choosing a symbol to represent unending love, there's not a lot wrong with choosing a life-giving, pure element, aside from the lack of originality, but why does everything you do have to be original?

There are two points I'd like to address here.

The first is the artifical, hallmark perception of "unending love", as cold and static as a linoleum floor. A shiny, brittle, unchanging rock is a very poor symbol of a healthy relationship of ANY kind, let alone a life-long partnership.

Relationships change and develop, grow and prosper, through things like hard work, patience, trust, empathy, respect, active mutual understandings, and communication. Even with all of these things, however, there will be fighting, anger, harsh words, conflicts of interest, clashing cultural backgrounds or upbringing, miscommunications, misperceptions, and sometimes worse. Because we are human.

It is fundamental to the human condition that personal growth comes from resolution of conflict, and mutual growth works the same way. The only way to remain conflict-free is to surrender your opportunity to mature as a human being. That's a pretty steep price to pay for a white picket fence and some peace and quiet. Without the so-called flaws of a partnership, none of that which is truly valuable would ever surface. A relationship is a vast, opaque, nebulous and ever-changing thing. And to top it all off, partnerships are vastly undervalued by the market.

Aside from being multifaceted, I can see nothing in a diamond that is representative of the kind of union of which I hope we are all speaking.

The second point is in response to your (presumably rhetorical) question, in part, "...why does everything you do have to be original?".

original - adj.
1. Preceding all others in time; first.
2. Not derived from something else; fresh and unusual: an original play, not an adaptation.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Every partnership, entered into freely and knowingly, is a "fresh and unusual" thing. No one is like another, and comparing them is almost universally futile. To face the challenges mentioned above, your greatest asset will be your creativity, your ability to reframe and redefine problems and barriers of all shapes and sizes. As a symbol of a union, I cannot think of a single reason why a token of troth should not reflect that creativity, or originality. Everything you do must be original if you consider yourself a thinking being.

Now, I am not suggesting that your every action should defy convention, but how many times a day do you go on autopilot, coast along letting your nervous system take control, without expressing yourself in some way? How much of your life passes without excercizing your one and only truly inalienable right, that of free thought? Why does everything one does have to be original? Because one may as well be dead if it is not. You contribute nothing of value to the world, and do not grow emotionally, intellectually, or communally.

I would like, finally, to make it clear that I am not talking about creative talent here. You don't have to be a professional artist to think and act creatively. There is creativity in every person born, the potential for originality in every moment of every day of every single man and woman's life. All it takes is choosing to step back for a moment and actually observe the life that you are living, the faces of the people that surround you every day, the barriers that you build around yourself, both physically and emotionally. Do you ever smile at people on the subway, or the bus? Do you even dare to make eye contact on the street? Why, or why not? Or do you even know?

Rocks make me happy

[a1englishman]

I purchased my wife's engagement ring knowing full well that the market for diamonds is an artificial one. There was an interesting program on PBS some hundred years ago that opened my eyes to this folly when I was still young.

Yet, I was also aware of the social preasures for a man to give a woman a precious gift when he asks her hand in marriage. My wife desired a diamond ring -- nothing gaudy, just nice and simple. I proposed, and when she said yes, we went out together and selected a diamond and a ring.

Now, you can either go to your local mall diamond store, and get ripped off, or you can go to the big city, find the jewelry district, and get yourself a high quality stone for less than half the price of the mall. You might be buying into the folly, but at least you're being sensible about it.

The final thing I have to say is that I got my money's worth out of that purchase. Every time I see my wife wearing that ring, I see how happy she is, I remember our wedding day and how happy I was. It may all be redicilous, but that's what most human behaviour is anyway.

One wedding to rule them all...

[Newton's Alchemy]

I'm still trying to get my girlfriend the One Ring.

It's the only thing that seems fitting, since I already call her.. my prescioussss.....

no diamond here

[kirkb]

It does seem quite shallow for a woman to expect a diamond ring. Even though it's a symbol of your union and love, its value does not represent the value of your marriage.

FWIW, my wife and I exchanged simple gold bands. We used the money that we saved for a downpayment on a house. It seemed like a much more sensible thing to do.

How to get cheap diamonds

[Anonymous Coward]

Most jewelers will rip you off and charge you mand thousands for rings worth only hundreds... LA and New York have jewelry districts where competition drives down prices to close to wholesale and you can save more than your plane ticket cost. Make it a special trip with your sweetie...

Re:How to get cheap diamonds

[milovoo]

>LA and New York have jewelry districts where competition drives down prices to close to wholesale
>and you can save more than your plane ticket cost. Make it a special trip with your sweetie...

This is essentially correct, but before you book your trip, remember that unless you can avoid looking
like a tourist and unless you know how to haggle with people who do it for a living, you may find
yourself paying about the same price you would pay at the mall.

(that being said, I am generally anti-diamond.
we got titanium wedding bands, the whole indestructible
thing seemed kinda romantic)

-milo

Re:How to get cheap diamonds

[Lozzer]

I think you'll have a harder time breaking a ring made out of diamond than one made out of titanium. Probably a lot harder to make one in the first place too

Re:How to get cheap diamonds

[milovoo]

Well, if there was such a thing as an all-diamond ring maybe, but gold, white gold, silver, etc, are all easier to cut through or bend than titanium. It actually comes with a warning that emergency personnel may not have the right tools to remove it if your finger gets swollen for some reason, although they have special tools for the other kind of rings.

Rockwell hardness for titanium is around c100 (if I am understanding how that works), but since a diamond is used as the test probe, I can only imagine it's much harder. Anyone know?

-milo

So does giving to Charity..

[enjo13]

Certain US based charities have been fronts for funding terrorism as well...

put up with it and shut the fuck up

[acehindu]

it is a thing all men have to go thru. The only thing that matters is that the woman LIKES the fucking rock. We all know that we are getting screwed. But women are superfical and inscure. The ring MAKES them feel special. It doesn't matter how many people died, how many seira lonei lost limbs or their lives or how many children are in slave labour for the ROCK. ps: not buying the ring is one sure way of getting the woman to leave you.

Re:put up with it and shut the fuck up

[gegi]

Jesus Christ. If my husband thought I were so "superficial and insecure" that he had to blow thousands of dollars on a rock without asking me, THAT would have been one sure way to get me to leave. Who wants a man like that?

ASK HER WHAT SHE WANTS. If she *does* really want a diamond and you can afford one, fine! Get her one. Don't listen to anyone who tells you what all men or all women think.

suck it up

[verch]

You are screwed dude, there is no way around it.. Yes its sucks and is a waste of money and might be financing bad people, but this is a battle I assure you you will never win. Suck it up.

I'm not getting married....

[ziggy_zero]

I'm still in high school. But I keep giving my gf these rings made out of dollar bills that she LOVES. There's a site somewhere that tells you how to make them, I forget the URL. Anywho, IF I ever did propose to her, I'd prolly propose with a dollar bill ring. But....then I'd prolly bust out the real deal. Yeah, there's really no two ways about it, you have to get a diamond. Sorry, bucko.

Get your girlfriend a diamond, you cheap bastard

[exley]

If you're not going to buy a diamond because of the immoral things that went into producing that diamond, you're going to have to start reconsidering a *lot* of your purchasing decisions.

Get off your high horse and get her what she wants. Besides, she's a woman; don't they always get what they want anyway? ;)

Eric

Other Stones

[ElecCham]

My wife and I have custom matching wedding rings in white gold; this is admittedly almost a necessity for me (I'm 6'4" but wear a 7 1/2 ring. I have spider fingers.)

Neither of us are particularly impressed by white diamonds, about the only ones you can get regularly. (We both loved the Colorado golden diamonds we saw - but De Beers will only let them sell something like ten a year.) But we both collect gems and minerals...

So, my ring has an alexandrite in it (and no, it's a real one, not a lab-grown modified sapphire) and hers has a tsavorite (green garnet; looks like emerald but brighter and not brittle like emerald).

And yeah, they cost us more than a month's salary... but unlike diamonds, our stones are actually worth it.

Cubic Zirconia

[thebrainbuz]

Those two words make any self-respecting jeweler cringe, but no one but a jeweler will ever know. If your wife shares your values but wishes to conform to conventention she'll agree with you on this one, if not buy Canadian.

Buy an OLD diamond ring

[Toad-san]

Buy one from an estate sale, from an elderly aunt, from an antique dealer. Have a jeweler examine it and give you an idea of its quality.

It'll be just as pretty, just as diamondy, you'll be poking the commercial diamond industry in the eye, and you'll be giving a new life to an old ring.

Saphire

[bokmann]

Before we got married, my wife worked on 'jewlers row' in Philadelphia, grading diamonds for a living. She knew all the politics, all the fake costs, and considers DeBeers more evil than I do Microsoft.

When we got engaged, she designed a platinum ring with a blue saphire as the main stone.

She is ecstatic with it, because EVERY time she wears it out (maybe 2-3 times a month) SOMEONE comments about how pretty and unusual it is.

eBay dude

[ziegast]

...diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch

If that's the case, quit whining and click here to stick it to the sellers.

-ez

mke a trade!

[ellem]

I got my wife 1.4 carats of Diamond Love
she got me a Gibson SJ-200

Fair deal.

Not that anybody will read this...

[radixzer0]

But a totally viable alternative to Diamond is Moissanite. Better than Diamond in almost every way (except hardness, and even there it's pretty damn close). Check out: How Stuff Works or the manufacturer.

Resale value?

[raix]

If you're worried about the resale value of an engagement ring, I think you have bigger problems. :)

Zirconia, again

[Anonymous Coward]

I did the diamond thing when we were first married. Big rock in a big setting, stuck out like a zit on Prom Night. We did it because we didn't know any better and it was what was expected of us.

After we had a kid she had to stop wearing it because she would spear him with it every time she picked him up. So, she started wearing a plain gold band. After a couple years, she decided she wanted a nice ring again, but she didn't want her wedding ring. She went out and bought a better band where the stones didn't stick up and she used zirconia. Her rationale is that only she will know and she would rather spend the money on a minivan than a f*#%ing diamond.

When you are young and in love you do stupid things like spending $5000 on a diamond. When you are older and your relationship takes on a more comfortable feel, you look at the DeBeers ads and chuckle at how silly it all was. Then, you go out and buy a minivan.

So, buy her whatever feels right for you but don't invest too much sentiment in it. It's just a ring. But, don't forget to send her flowers every couple months and be sure to send them to her work where all the other women in her office can see them. Bring home her favorite ice cream when she calls and you can tell she's in the dumps. Rub her feet when she's pregnant. Those are the things that really show her you care.

</LECTURE>

This is an "us" decision

[michael_cain]

IANAMC (I am not a marriage counselor), but am speaking from the perspective of a 22-year marriage that seems to still be working. This is a decision that needs to be made by two people, and your posting sounds a little one-sided.

As many people have pointed out, it is possible to get a diamond that you know did not come from one of the countries/mines that you object to. If you and she agree that the two of you want to buy a ring, explain that you feel strongly about the source of the stone and limit the choices. If she doesn't understand, to the point that you can't work something out, your marriage is apt to have bigger problems than a chunk of crystalized carbon.

If it's a financial thing and you're trying to avoid spending money that you think is a waste (a position taken by many posters), just keep in mind that it's about to become "our" money, not "yours" and "hers". More marriages fail over how to handle the finances than any other cause. My wife-to-be and I spent a lot of time exploring how each other felt about wealth and money and spending on different kinds of things before we got married.

Claddagh rings instead!

[Wolfstone]

When we started talking of marriage, I asked my lady whether she wanted a diamond or something else as an engagement ring. She said that she didn't know yet, but offered a surprising question in return: "Do you want an engagement ring?"

I pointed out that an engagement ring on a man was unusual, but would be neat. Then she reminded me that traditional Claddagh rings serve for both engagement and wedding rings.

The traditional claddagh design has a heart, held by two hands, with a crown on top of the heart. I think this is also called the "Royal Claddagh". There is also a "Finnian Claddagh" that lacks the crown, for obvious reasons.

Claddagh rings date from 17th century Ireland. Worn on the right hand, heart facing out, the ring indicates that the wearer is available (I offer my heart to you). Worn on right hand with the heart facing inwards indicates that you are engaged. The Claddagh as a wedding ring is worn on the left hand with the heart facing inwards.

Both my lady and I have some Irish blood, and we like quaint old customs. [This was well before the renewed interest in things Celtic.]

The most common, and probably most traditional claddagh rings are all metal. We chose to have rings custom-made with gems in them.

My wife's ring is white gold; the heart is a ruby as red as blood. My ring is yellow gold, with an emerald as green as the forest.

Diamonds? Pah! Everybody has those.

Alternatives

[MsWillow]

Actually, my partner Vikki was not at all interested in a diamond. She doesn't find them attractive. What she wanted was a top-grade emerald, which is more beautiful in her eyes. The deep rich green-with-just-a-hint-of-blue is her color :)

But if you're looking for a rare stone that's also pretty, and will certainly hold its value, try taaffeite Several of these gems have been found, as has a location for low-grade, not gem grade, material, but to date the source of gem-grade taaffeite remains undiscovered. It's far too rare to be used as a major source of terrorism funding :)

I can't handle this anymore

[kyrina]

This was the last of the "diamonds are an investment in her" comments I could handle before I was compelled to put my two-cents in.

First I'll start by saying I've been married for about 2 and a half years now. My engagement ring was silver with a an amethyst in it (purchased about 6 monthes after I proposed). My and my husband's wedding bands are silver band with a celtic knot pattern. All three rings cost together under $400. At the time I purchased them I was mostly just happy not to have the extra expense but now I'm also happy just for the nice simplicity.

As a chick with a brain I see shiny overexpensive rings as a worthless showoff. Most of them end up looking basically tacky. There are very few diamond with gold rings that I see and don't wonder what the person was thinking. In my opinion, anyone who demands one as a proof of love isn't worth the effort. It certainly isn't a good sign of the way you're viewed (walking wallet) or of the way you'll be viewed in the future (walking wallet/sperm donor/inept husband).

Of course, I end up avoiding friendships with most other females because they usually end up sounding shallow and frivalous so maybe my advice for dealing with "normal" women isn't great.

Kyrina
I'm childfree and kept my last name!

Re:I can't handle this anymore

[festers]

Of course, I end up avoiding friendships with most other females because they usually end up sounding shallow and frivalous so maybe my advice for dealing with "normal" women isn't great

Have you ever stopped to consider that you may be coming across as an arrogant bitch? Not many "normal" women want to be friends with that.

alternative carbon rock

[streamlinedpc]

science has provided us with the wonderful opportunity to have things fabricated without the help of mother nature. this applies to diamonds as well. synthetic diamonds are not only less expensive, but they contain less flaws, have less color, and are more brilliant.

the merchant will do his/her best to convince you that mother natures version is superior and that she'll know the differance- or maybe she'll even look down on you for it. don't fret, though, because it's just a ploy to get your money.
believe me, she won't complain when she's dazzling her friends- making them wonder why their man couldn't get them a rock that shines like hers ;-)

facts on canadian diamonds

[jalippo]

some of the comments here about canadian diamonds have been bullshit. i used to work for a mining company that mined canadian diamonds. i worked at a diamond pit in NWT of Canada for a while too. Here are some facts: 1. the conditions on site are fanstastic compared to your average coal mine! you wouldnt complain. we even had internet access. 2. the majority of canadian diamond mines are owned and operated by non deBeers interests. 3. the majority of diamonds from these mines are sorted and sold through Belgium and prices are regulated by deBeers interests, but no money goes to deBeers. i dont think these diamonds are lasered with the polar bear. 4. the rest are sold directly to the canadian market and get the polar bear lasered on the edge. and yes, they are the higher quality diamonds and typically very expensive! And as for my opinion: $1500 is my limit for a diamond ring. Thats what my wife got and she loves it :-) j.

Buy an antique...

[roqetman]

Buy an antique ring. That's what I did. I bought a Victorian ring with 9C diamonds. It wasn't very expensive, and it has history and class. Forget retail value, this is for life, right?

No they're not

[ZioPino]

Simply don't get married. It's a scam to start with, you don't need it and it's a freaking life insurance for whoever will whine louder when the party is over. Remember, there's no divorce. Forget what they told you, divorce is not easy and you'll be stuck paying alymony for the rest of your life to a person that you hate.
Think I'm exagerating ? No, I'm just one of the 50% -60% of people that have been involved in this scam. Give her a ring if you feel like it but don't do it because of the rules of engagement. The worst think you can do in life is to act like a puppet for somebody else profit. There's no user manual for life, write your own !

Having just got married...

[dr_acer]

I just got married less than 2 months ago. LIke a lot of people, I have a thing against diamonds. To me they are boring. I prefer coloured stones. Much nicer. When I proposed to my wife I gave her an amethyst that I had carved into a heart. She liked this way more than a boring diamond.

If you really want to get a diamond I suggest that you look at Canadian diamonds. They are mined in non-terroist conditions and are a bit more unique. And lots of them have a kewl little polar bear etched onto the girdle of the diamond. :)

other options

[mokeyboy]

some of the best wedding andd engagement rings i've seen had no diamonds. they were made to suit the person they were for and had special meaning for both parties. that said, if you have issues with monopolies or conflict diamonds, buy from a 'clean' source. http://www.argylediamonds.com.au/

Some practice for marriage...

[paulharm]

Use this as an opportunity for marriage practice. Tell your beloved your thoughts about the question, including the fact that you're not sure what you would prefer. Ask her to read some of the stuff you've read, and let her think about it. If she decides she needs a diamond, because of upbringing, or childhood dreams, or whatever, do it, using some of the less unsettling purchasing options (antiques, canadian, etc). If she doesn't, go out and either alone, or together, pick out a wonderful engagement ring that she can be happy to wear forever.

This is precisely what I did with my then future fiancee, and current wife. We talked about it, and she actually turned out to share my unease about the production and marketing of diamonds. So, we spent a day in town, looking at rings, until she found one she wanted, and we bought it. It was a very good sign, I think, that we were able to talk, and agree, and act as a couple.

If you're going to get married...

[kob43]

Buy the frickin diamond. I bought my wife one, even back when I was making about 12K/year. If you're worried about resale value, you shouldn't be getting married in the first place. Cough up a buck ya cheap bastard.

The Answer

[rayoslav]

Love is not diamonds!

Love is getting your simple, gold wedding bands at a pawn shop for $15 and a Super Nintendo.

Repeat...

[tarsi210]

Repeat after me:

I want to get laid often, I will buy a diamond.
I want to get laid often, I will buy a diamond.
I want to get laid often, I will buy a diamond.

Re:Repeat...

[JohnnyBolla]

If I want to get laid often, I won't get married.

Where to buy?

[Mikeytsi]

I've got one word for you:

Ebay.

That's where I got my fiance's ring.

Diamond Value

[Dhoffdude]

[I am not a jeweler, I am a Jewelers son, I dont know everything on this topic, heres what I know]

Diamonds arent that rare, its the fact that more people are buying them and thyre being released slowly to raise the prices.

When a Fiance buys a ring for his future wife, he isnt buying the ring for her, hes buying the ring for her mother, her sisters, and her girlfriends.
That is one of the ways that those close to his future wife will judge him. Thats why the purchase is so significant.

-Steve

Obtaining a Diamond Sans Qualms

[omarius]

Do what I did. Buy your diamond at an antique or estate jeweler. You can get the ring brand-new elsewhere if you like. I got the whole ring at my local antique and estate jewelery dealer and my fiance said it was "perfect." I don't think I could hope for more than that.

Re: but we ARE different from our parents.

[Moofie]

I am ignoring the pill because it's irrelevant. The reason I don't cheat on my intended is not because I might get caught, it's because I believe it is wrong. The pill has nothing to do with that decision. So yeah, the human race as a whole might still be sorta confused about these new factors, but individuals need not be.

As far as gay marriages go, I don't understand the brouhaha. I'd be happy to have the law changed so that there are no tax considerations to marriage...I don't think it's appropriate for the State to get involved in what goes on in a bedroom, whether you're gay or straight. At that point, gay couples could put rings on each other's fingers, say "we're married!" and go on about their business. Everybody's happy.

Diamonds not always a girl's best friend

[ibis]

This comment has two parts. Feel free to ignore the first part if you think astrology is bunk.

First, according to Hindu Sidereal astrological principles, only approximately half of the population can or should wear diamonds. For the other half of the population, wearing a diamond may cause health problems, relationship problems, problems with children, and/or problems in other facets of life. The determining factor here is the sidereal ascendant or rising sign.

My wife's ascendant indicates that a diamond would be detrimental.

Second, I bought my wife a Star Ruby as an engagement ring. She loves the attention she gets from having a unique non-traditional engagement ring.

Did I save any money? Mind your own business!

Re:Trust me, diamonds are worth it

[pjgeer]

The joke is broken because pics.steakandcheese.com have changed their graphics so that they all redirect to a tiny animated gif icon. Here is proof-- try clicking full size on any of these humorous pictures and you will get the anigif. Sorry, debeers.jpg wasn't indexed by the google spider so I didn't get the joke either :( Hey Foxman98, can you pull it out of your cache and put it up on a geocities or something?

In my country...

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank god, in my country diamond rings are for rappers and drug dealers in second class Hollywood Movies.

If I brought my gf a diamond ring she'd throw it at my face and tell me to find some lame bimbo who's impressed by "horteradas" (Anyone know the translation for that??? - hint: it's Spanish....)

Diamonds are overrated

[Aigeanta]

As the granddaughter of a Chicago jeweler, I've been around precious and semi-precious stones and metals all my life. I was given little diamond rings at a young age, and when I got older my mom put a big rock in a custom necklace setting for my 16th birthday, with matching diamond studs.

My impression of diamonds is that they are cold and hard and all too easy to lose. I don't even get a good vibe from them. I would much rather have a piece of jewelry that I actually like and feel comfortable with and wouldn't mind losing too much. That's why most of mine consists of "hippy jewelry" like wooden beads and turqoise and silver native american pieces.

The only true tradition I care about is that of a ring. I don't care what the decoration is; as long as beginning meets end symbolizing the eternity of love, it's the proper trinket.

What I did

[orblee]

My wife had some diamonds left to her from a necklace of her grandma's. We got the biggest, got someone to design the ring, and paid someone to make it.

Okay, my wife used to work at Cartier and so knew goldsmiths and jewellery designers, but this is one good way of avoiding the mess. If diamonds are forever, then inherit them from grandparents.

Alternatively, use anything else. Diamonds exist in abundance, but DeBeers restrict the supply. There are far more cost-effficient stones and you can make rings out of yellow gold, white gold, pink gold, platinum, or silver.

Get Over It

[Boomer2]

You probably perpatuate more human rights abuses buying your foreign-made shirt to save a few bucks.

emphasize art over material

[haizi_23]

my suggestion is to find an up and coming jeweller who makes really beautiful one of a kind rings that could well become truly valuable over time. if you can give her something beautiful that no other woman will have, that is adequate proof of how special she is to you. you can avoid the whole diamonds debate altogether, or maybe get an antique stone from your family or hers reset in a new ring.

if you ever watch that pbs show antique roadshow, you see that a lot of the really valuable items are those from master craftsmen of a century or so ago who really made a name for themselves with a unique style. that's the kind of thing i'd shoot for.

Diamonds are they worth it.

[fluid_amp]

I'm female, but don't think diamonds are the end all and be all (for all the above mentioned reasons). My suggestion: find an excellent artistic craftman jeweler and let your girlfriend help design her own ring which can then be custom made - a one of a kind.

buy her a car

[mmuskratt]

My wife loves her diamond ring, it will be passed on to future generations, hopefully, but I also know someone who bought his fiancee a used Toyota LandCruiser, and she takes him off-roading with her in her new baby. Costs about the same...

Re:Toilet Seat Etiquette with regard to cats

[@madeus]

Hmm, I don't see how the cat isn't going to call in just because the seat is down, or how it's any more likely it won't fall in.

Related story:

My mum has a cat that can both drink from *and* urinate it the toliet (I have seen it do both, but not at the same time).

Somehow I think I would be more impressed if it only ever did one of these things :-)

Re:There's only one use for a diamond....

[bandy]

I use my diamond for dressing grinding wheels.

being female...

[plutonium binky]

Well, being a girl myself, I don't really dig diamonds...sure they're pretty and all that shit, but so's safety glass.
and you know, as far as I've heard, no terrorist have been funded with bus terminal material money.
I'm not sure that makes sense, but my point is that who cares what you wear on your friggin finger, isn't it more important what you feel for the person your with? If your engagement ring lasts longer than your feelings for someone, you done gone wrong somewhere.

-binky

Other options

[Lil0ne]

My boyfriend pointed me to this article, mainly because he knows I love the beauty of diamonds.

I know that if/when he proposes, he isn't really going to want to drop "three months salary" on a clear rock. Would he do it anyway? Maybe. Would I want him to? Not particularly. And I have my reasons... which should come to some relief to him :)

1. I'm going to be inheriting a nice little payload of diamond jewelry from my mother... including a ring with a 1.5 carat center stone that has a dollar worth in the five figures. Why the in the world would I want anything else? Plus, that's just something else for him to feel as though he has to "compete" with.

2. There are other stones out there that are quite beautiful. For instance: tanzanite. The tanzanite mines have supposedly been completely picked through, which would make me think that they'd be more precious than diamonds now. It's an absolutely beautiful blue-purple stone with a captivating quality that mezmerizes me more than diamonds. Even he thinks they're pretty.

   As I said to him, " Almost every engaged girl has a diamond ring. Why not go for something different and unique? Our relationship isn't the same as everyone elses, and I wouldn't want my ring to be, either."

   And finally, it really is the though and meaning that counts. Don't forget that.

Anyone out there agree with me?

Find an heirloom

[Buskaatt]

I ran into the same ethical problems. Then my mom gave me her first engagement and wedding bands to give to my wife. The ring is more beautiful than anything I could find new these days. Yeah people still suffered, to get the diamond into that ring, but by re-using an existing heirloom, I saved the world some suffering, gave my wife a beautiful ring, and the bloody conglomerate didn't get one dime of my $$.

If you don't have a family member who can help, look for a used ring.

An alternative

[Phreakiture]

For an engagement ring, I gave my wife a gold ring with three stones on it: an amethyst, a sapphire and a citrine. She feels much the same was as I do about diamonds, and refuses to wear them. She and I have been married for four years now.

How about an engagement bike?

[FlyerFanNC]

A girl I was dating a few years ago was into sportbikes as much as I am. One night at a bar the subject of engagement rings came up, and I expressed my belief that they're a waste of money. They just stay there on your finger and don't do anything. So I told her if we ever got engaged that I'd want to buy her something more useful, like a motorcycle.

And you know what? She *loved* the idea.

We're just friends now and live 800 miles apart, but as time goes on, it becomes more likely that she's going to be the one. It's probably 50-50 now, or at the outside, 1 in 3. And guess what? She agrees with that, too.

So next time you get engaged, consider buying her a Ducati instead of a useless rock.

Speaking, again, as a girl...

[gegi]

... I can't understand why some people marry such dumb women. :) (This is summing up quite a lot of posts here, not just this one.)

I suppose it's also that I'm much, much poorer than most employed people who frequent slashdot. My husband has no job at all, and I don't earn much. Any expensive jewelry purchase *would* be paid for by me. (Although if you're marrying the girl, her money is your money, right? So essentially, you're both buying it, as long as she doesn't dump you before the wedding, in which case The Rules obligate her to give the ring back.)

I can't imagine spending two months' salary on anything. I earn just about exactly enough to break even, month-to-month. How are people in my situation expected to afford a diamond according to the "traditional" rules of engagement? Run up nice big credit debts? Gee, that's forward-thinking.

People who have savings and/or earn enough to put some aside are in a slightly different position, but still... two months? Who pays the rent for those two months?

If you -can- spare the money and it -does- really matter to your girlfriend... then yes! Give her the ring she dreams of! Make her happy. You want to make her happy, don't you?

If you don't have the money, and she gives you some line about how much her love is "worth" based on the ring, then why are you putting up with this girl? Clearly, she doesn't give a damn about you or your relationship. There are better women out there.

Re:Opals from Oz

[implex]

Luckily I was engaged in the US and being Australian I went back to Australia and picked out a beauty of a full sprectrum Opal. My missus to be and I had checked out prices on diamonds in the US and were shocked and decided something unique was in order. I had the ring custom built for cheaper than anything on the market with Australian dollars (57 cents US at the time). 4 years later she still gets comments on how cool it is!

Happiness... Is it worth the cost? and Investment

[jreames]

Now I will admit, I 'balked' a bit at buying a ring.. for a second or so. My wife is a bit of a femininist (so she says...) and has pointed out that a ring does look a lot like "and this is how much I am worth to someone else"... Anyhow some thoughts: A diamond isn't a BAD investment: that is -A diamond does not drastically depreciate (like a car or a computer does) -It is small and portable -It is relatively liquid (ie you can sell them most anywhere if you had to...) -Many places will buy a diamond. Now this will probably remain true for quite a while, since no one seems to be planning a 'raid' or 'invasion' of south africa to 'break up' the 'evil cartel' that fixes the prices. That said, I will say that I did buy a ring, but I will also admit a bit of a non-traditional approach, and let me first tell you why; I knew that she would be looking at this ring for years potentially, so I wanted her happy with it. The approach was more or less discuss budgetary limits for a while, then we went looking to see what sorts of things she liked. Well, we didnt find anything we loved, but she had a good idea of what she wanted, which was good, because I will admit i didn thave a fork()ing clue ;) So eventually we contacted a diamond merchant (see if any of your friends or family know one... you can save a BUNCH this way!)... Having a general idea of what she wanted, there were about three or four PAGES (at about 100 settings per page) of 'standard' (ie not custom-made) bare settings to choose from. (remember: real hackers are pragmatic: custom steel is nice and sexy and all that, but gerber made some darn nice blades for a lot less ;). Having chose the setting, then you can go pick out the stone(s) you want. I can tell you that I am suprised, spending money on clarity can make a diamond look much more impressive. I can also tell you that truely good (deep color) emeralds are MORE expensive than a diamond of the same weight. (and much more delicate)... Anyhow, to make the story short, she is happy with the ring, and loves it (everyone who sees it also likes it and thinks it is unique).. and we took a similar approach for her wedding band (which incidentally cost LESS than my band, which was stock from a jeweler (37-40% discount negotiated!), and has no stones (but does have fancier 'metalwork). To sum it up, She's happy, I'm happy, the ring is still worth more than what I paid for it, and probably will be for a while. Meanwhile my used jeep is worth about 1/3 the value of what I paid for it (used) 3 yrs ago, and I dont even want to think about the computer hardware that I have bought in the past 18 mos, or what it is worth now! Try communicating, it may suprise the heck out of you (humans are pretty bad at shared memory interfacing, as a generalization, but you might find a good mentalist who can help you!)... I'd bet that she would love a diamond, but that she might not object to having some more choice over what she gets. (IIRC arent some women buying themselves large caliber stones just because?)

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Sibelius]

Wow, what a good point.

Yeah, it's true -- rings and all that stuff, they come from the time when it was a really good idea to mark your partner in such a way that pretty much said, "Dude, she's mine. BTFU." It's just evolved from there.

My wife has a sapphire

[NumbDr9]

I've read a lot of individual opinions, but how many have actually tried something besides a diamond? After I proposed to my wife we talked about rings, and my wife actually wanted something different. We went to a jewelry store and after talking with the salesman decided to get a "traditional" band but with a sapphire in the place of a diamond. The sapphire was a good choice for us because: 1. It is a fairly hard gemstone that can withstand the rigors of being mounted in a ring. The salesman (who happens to be my cousin) advised against some of the other options we explored based on durability. 2. My wife liked it. Notice that I didn't mention price as one of the criteria. The Sapphire happened to cost much less than a diamond of anywhere near the same size, but this was more of a convenience than a determining factor. If my wife had wanted a diamond, we would have gotten one. Since we have been married, my wife has had numerous compliments on her less traditional choice (more traditional if you look beyond the most recent century). My wife and I have now been married for a little over three years. We have 2 children. We have a mutually happy and fulfilling relationship. And, we did it all without buying a diamond.

Talk to your girlfriend

[shlybluz]

See what she wants after you propose to her. Tell her what you can afford and stick to your guns. If she's gonna be greedy, its s sign she'll be that way for everything and you'll always be broke. BTW, when my husband proposed he didn't have the ring in hand. In fact, when we went to look at rings I chose the smallest one I could get (1/5 carat) and I rarely wear mine because I prefer to just wear my 10K $30 gold band. Not all women are materialistic.

OT: Re:Hmmm...

[ckaminski]

I *NEVER* thought I'd see the day when Ed Parker and diamond rings showed up in the same story on /. Wow, I think I've had one too many Dew's today, I MUST be seeing things...

Got to admit though, the man WAS a genius...

Jewellery

[modipodio]

Is there anyone here who even remotely know's his ass from his elbow about good jewellery and or is actually a jeweller?

Every one is throwing there ten cent's around talking about eithical diamond's from canada ,emerald's, saphire's,white gold and what not but I have yet to see one well informed comment disscussing what makes a stone more or less valuable , the different kinds of diamonds,(red diamonds from russia , yellow diamonds etc )and the different jewellery brand's ,(cartier for example) ,and there workmanship / prices .All I see is a bunch of geek's talking about something they have relatively no knoweledge about .

Diamonds are overpriced. Buy Moissonite!

[Jettamann]

http://www.moissanite.com/getting_engaged.cfm

Tips and tricks

[TBHiX]

I'm not sure if this has been covered, and I'm sure as hell not going to wade through comments in the four-digit range, but there are a couple of ways to get your money's worth.

One is to buy a nonstandard caret. You hear .75 caret, 1 caret, .5 carets, like nature and jewelers worked on a rational number system. But people go in and want to buy the nice round numbers. So there is less demand for the odd chickens... you might be able to get the .73, for example, for quite a bit less than the .75.

I'm sure there are others.

-TBHiX-

I didn't have to buy anything

[hackman]

My wife asked me to marry her, so I didn't have to even worry about this topic. What a surprise! She gave me a necklace she designed that is really nice, it has a peacock obsedian stone in a neat white gold fixture. It's appropriate for me, seeing as I used to wear various necklaces for a long time.

But really, we had talked about the engagement ring years beforehand at some point when it came up in a random conversation. We had agreed that I would take her on some kind of a fancy trip instead of giving her an engagement ring, which is perfect because she really loves to travel. I have yet to follow-through on that because I'm having trouble finding jobs after graduating, but will some day (soon hopefully) when I have a few $$ set aside.

I'd say screw tradition and make your own tradition, unless she really wants one and tells you so. It means so much more to us to have our own symbols of our commitment to eachother. The wedding bands were custom designed by a friend, and really suit us well.

Just my $0.02, seeing as I was married this past July 6th..

It's Like Using Windows

[aoeuid]

No matter how you rationalize it, if you buy a diamond, Canadian, from DeBeers, estate sale, or otherwise, you are perpetuating this apparent tradition.

So while you think you got a got deal, and are not supporting the diamond cartels, you in fact are. Every time another women looks at your fiancees ring, the apparent traditional will be reinforced in another persons mind.

I think of it like this, and can't believe I haven't seen it anywhere else yet.

You can run around downloading warezed copies of Windows 2000 and Microsoft Office, and declare that you feel good about not giving a god damned penny to those evil Microsoft people. But every time you download and use a Windows product, every time you accept an emailed Microsoft Word document, every time you tell people you use Windows, every time you don't tell people your believes about why Microsoft is bad but use Windows anyway, during all these situations you are further perpetuating the Microsoft monopoly. And I see diamonds in the exact same way.

You can sell them back!

[client32]

There are already so many post that you proabably won't see this, and it has proabably already been pointed out. BUT..... There are jewlery stores that will give you a certificate or make you keep the reciept. With this, and if they have a policy in place, they will take the diamond (ring in your case) back. They will give you the full price you paid if you put it towards some other more expensive peice of jewlery. Think of it as trading up. They will give you a certain percentage if you just want money.

You will probably have to try and find a local store. In my experience the jewlery "chains" don't do anything like this.

Heres what I did.

[garethx1]

I had some of the same feelings you did. I hate the commercial diamond business myself, So I originally went out and got an antique Opal ring. This was met with only Mild satisfaction so I regrouped. I didnt want to buy new, supporting brutal foreign regimes so I hit Ebay. I found another antique ring With a small Diamond and 4 large emeralds around it, my wife being Irish, this was great. She is the envy of her friends with big vacant looking rocks, this had a past, was totally different from anything being made today and I got it for dirt cheap!!!! And its all real too. (best part, I breathed a BIG sigh of relief there at the jewelers.)

Re:Southern Revision?

[charon_on_acheron]

No you didn't say the US started the slave business. You implied that all white people in the US owned slaves, and that no other people did.

As others pointed out, only a few rich white people in the south owned slaves. I just filled in the rest of the picture. In Africa, you didn't have to be rich and white to own slaves, just victorious and black.

As for the colonial empires argument, slavery existed in Africa long before white people ever went there. So don't blame Europeans for that too. Sure they were bastards that bought human lives like cattle. But those people would have been slaves one way or another. That is what tribal warfare was like back then.

By the way, I am not from the south, and am hardly an apologist for them. I just don't care much about people that let themselves be held as slaves. White or black. They had the choice of being a good little slave, or escaping and facing death. Most chose to stay in chains. Would you choose that? Would you allow it for your wife or kids?

Brass 'n glass

[dacarr]

As unromantic as it sounds, my wife was generally happy with the symbolism of a silver ring with a cubic zirconium (ok, fine, glass) with the understanding that, when we were able to afford it, I would purchase a diamond.

For the future, I'll have to talk to her. =^_^=

What I did (Dec 01) - Not a diamond

[PK_ERTW]

To be perfectly honesty, I to was a victim of advertising. I had every intention of getting her a diamond engagement ring. However it turns out she didn't really want one (thought they were quite gaudy, etc.), and discovered the De Beers story herself. I was enlightened to say the least.

At anyrate, we went shopping for quite a while for a ring, and one thing is for certain, all the mall-type jewellry stores are crap. It will take you about 3 or 4 stores to realize that they all sell pretty much the same stuff (albeit at wildly fluctuating prices), and are about as ethical as a used car salesman.

But, they will give you ideas. What you do next is find a nice, independantly owned jewelry store. These will always be run by a real jeweler. Explain what you want, and he will show you examples of what he has, both available on the shelves and pictures of things he has made. Just about everything was nicer, and a lot more original than the same old ones we saw in every other stores. Custom made items are the same price as things on the shelves.

In our case, what we wanted was pretty close to something he had, so we used that as a starting point, and then described some changes. About a week later, I went in and picked up a beautiful, custom made ring. The centre stone was my girlfriends choice, a sapphire. For added irony, the sapphire actually has a real history (not a marketed one) as an engagement stone, and they are quite a bit rarer than diamonds.

So, by getting it custom made, we got exactly the ring we wanted, at a very good price. It is an original, so it doesn't look like everyone elses ring out there. With a owner-operator type store, you are supporting your local economy. We also get free cleanings and sizings for ever (OK, assuming they don't go out of business which isn't likely).

My other piece of advice if you are going to buy a diamond is to go to http://www.bridaltips.com/diamond.htm for the best guide I found when I still thought she wanted a diamond.

diamonds: not anyone's best friend

[loveandpeace]

I have been aware of the social, political, and environmental implications of the diamond trade for a long time. Before we got married, I think my husband was struggling with more of the sheer expense (for nothing of any real value) issue when he finally came to me and asked.

Him: What kind of engagement rimgs do you like?
Me: Brick ones.
Him: Huh?
Me, looking up from my book: Brick ones. With two stories and a porch.
Him: Hm. [brightening] Can it have a garage, too?
Me: Sure. You're buying it.

This conversation really happened, and we are quite happily living for the fourth year in our brick, two-storey home, with a fine swing on the porch. It doesn't have a garage as yet, but last month it appraised at $32,000 more than the purchase price. With equity like that, we could build a garage and a data haven as well.

And the last time i checked, diamonds don't have spare rooms that can be used as anything, let alone converted into a nursery when life takes an unexpected turn.

Chances are that if your lady has sense enough to like a geek, then she has sense enough to value something other than a diamond. I advise asking; you might be surprised at the answer.

Love and peace,
heidi

How I did my engagement

[Sagev]

Actually, I got engaged to my girlfriend with a ring she already had and wore frequently. Then, we went to the store to pick out her _real_ engagement ring. She and I agree on a lot of things politically, and we both hate DeBeers, that's for sure. They kill way the hell too many people. So, we got a lab-created Sapphire ring that was really nice and only about $120 with insurance.

I think the symbol is way more important than the stone. It matters more that you give her a ring and she wears it on her left ring finger than that it has a diamond in it. Really, the purpose of an engagement ring is as a promise and as a symbol to people who might hit on her that she's taken. :) A Sapphire does that just as well as a diamond.

Diamonds In General

[mikedfwDiamonds]

A Geek friend of mind suggested that i might be able to help out here. I know this has been a very long discussion. Im not here to be a know it all, just to maybe help answer some questions. I've been a gemologist since 1983 and a store owner/Diamond broker since 1993. Just so you know, Im not an Industry RAH RAH guy. There is a lot of BS in this industry, but if you know how to see through it, It's alot easier to get things done. If you guys have some specific questions I'll see what I can do to help.

Re:Diamonds In General

[nagora]

If you guys have some specific questions I'll see what I can do to help.

How rare are/what would be the price of diamonds if there was no cartel?

TWW

Diamond are forever (since 1947)

[bullgod]

There is a school of thought that the market of a diamond as an engagement gift is one that was artificially created by the powers behind the global diamond cartel.
Just a couple of links to flesh out this point of view are here and here

One very reasonable alternative.

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.russianlabdiamonds.com

And they have nothing to do with deBeers

Re:Southern Revision?

[Golias]

You implied that all white people in the US owned slaves, and that no other people did.

At no point did I imply any such thing. Did you even read my post? Perhaps you are confusing it with stuff others have said in this thread. Read it again.

I made three points, and three points only:

1. Slavery was brutal and evil.

2. A lot of revisionists would have us believe otherwise.

3. Those people are full of shit.

Diamonds? That's junk!

[attackiko]

Come on, throw these worthless rocks away and get your girl a really useful device: Alex Chiu immortality ring!

www.alexchiu.com

Just don't blame me when you become fed up with your wife after 150 years.

Re:apparently, an ugly rock == proof of love.

[Fiver-rah]

There are a bunch of people on here whining about the unfair treatment of the workers in the mines and all that political unrest stuff. There isn't a damn thing you can do to change any of that.

You may be right. Personally, though, I think that any man who gave me a rock that was extracted by workers under near-slavery like conditions and told me it was because he loved me needs to get his head, and his ethics, checked. The whole point of a diamond is that it's a symbol of something. What is it a symbol of? Well, it's been made into a symbol of love, fidelity, affection, devotion. But it is also a symbol of the company who infused it with those meanings: de Beers. And they're rotten through and through.

Now, I don't think that the fact that one woman--myself--says "do not EVER buy me a diamond" is going to make a damned bit of difference to the cartel that runs the diamond market in circles. I don't think it'll improve working conditions for one person in Africa. I don't think it'll make one person's life even slightly better.

But a diamond is a symbol, yes? If a man bought me a diamond I would honestly feel ill. Sick. Disgusted. Because what a diamond symbolizes to me is greed, commercialism, the rapacity of western civilization, and the still-intolerable reek of colonialism. A diamond symbolizes our culture's ability to turn a blind eye to the things we don't want to see. It symbolizes the power of acquisition, as if love, like a diamond ring, is something that you could purchase. No, folks, this is not love you're seeing. This is not love at all.

Now, you want to know what *will* make a difference? Let me tell you what I'm going to do if I ever get married. First of all, I already have everything I need for a household. So rather than getting wedding presents, I'm going to ask that people donate to some of my favorite charities. And if he wants to drop ten thousand dollars on me, this is what we're going to do. We're taking a honeymoon to Africa, and we're teaching. I have a lot of useful skills--I'm sure any man I marry will, too--and I know that we can do some good, make differences in some people's lives, and help build infrastructure in places that badly badly need it. Now, that, folks, is a wedding ring I can be proud of: several thousand dollars, six months, and who knows how many lives changed.

Now, I realize that there are many women in the world who aren't like me. They want rings, and they want rocks, and I guess that's fine with me, as they don't see a diamond the way I do. But for god's sake, it's not the diamond that proves you love her--it's the fact that she wants the diamond, and you're willing to do it for her.

No diamonds required - go custom and local

[veggie2u]

When I asked my wife to marry me, I gave her a big plastic blinking thing that she just loved. She still has it. Then we talked about what we would do for rings. We had a local jewlery artist create us an interconnecting 4 ring set. We each wore and engagement ring, then each added the other 'wedding band'. My wife has two small stones in hers - our birth stones. I decided to go stone less. It was never a thought in her mind to get a diamond. Thank my lucky stars. We now have something unique and supported a local artist.

veggie2u

guide to gift giving - from a girl

[lakenymph]

gifts == attention, thinking about her when she's not around, appreciation

Now, they don't HAVE to cost you two months' salary. They don't have to cost you anything. I've received short sweet emails, sappy ecards, a popular love song sung to me with my name inserted, all of which made me feel loved, thought about, and important. Granted, not everyone has the creativity or confidence to come up and follow through with such things - I know I don't.

Buying things is much easier. I've bought roses for my boyfriend more than once and had them sent to his office. He loved them everytime (although I doubt every guy out there would have, sometimes I think he's more of a girl than I am ;) ).

Gifts are a special symbol, and rings in particular. Communication isn't always easy, especially communication of "feelings". A gift of something nice says that she is cared about and treasured. I don't think my boyfriend knows how much I wanted some token of his love after we had been dating for several months. I eventually "hinted" by sending him a link to a manufacturer of a 'one ring' replica from "The Lord of the Rings" (http://www.badalijewelry.com/tolkien.htm). He did get it for me, and I don't think he knows how much I treasure it.

It's not that I didn't know he loved me, I just wanted something from him that I could wear all the time to remind me of it. In high school, it was tradition to trade class rings (which is still done in my hometown, though I know the tradition has faded elsewhere). A ring is a symbol of commitment, and because of that it has the added bonus of fending off unwanted attentions from other guys.

As for the diamond, if you have an ethical problem, talk it over with her, she may not know about the issue. Who knows, maybe a "diamond" isn't that important to her, maybe she really likes purple and would rather have an amethyst anyway. My dad had to have Jif peanut butter and Oreo chocolate sandwich cookies, but with anything else, the cheaper versions were just as good (and better because they were cheaper). But DON'T try to pull a fast one on her by getting her a not-diamond and not telling her. Regardless of whether or not she craves diamond-bragging rights, if she finds out that it's not real and you didn't tell her, you've lied, and that's no way to ask a girl to marry you.

It's important to remember that girls are individuals and each is different, so there's no one piece of good advice you can give - you have to know your girl.

alternatives?

[Ir0nFist]

Symbols are worth whatever value you attach to them. The purchase of the diamond engagement ring is a symbol of the commitment you are making. If you don't believe that it represents your commitment (for many justifiable reasons), find something that does. If your girlfriend understands you, she'll appreciate the thought you've put into finding a substitute that truly represents what you feel. And if you don't subscribe to the symbol theory, remember that it is you choosing to purchase a gift for someone you love. Both the giver and receiver should find pleasure in it.

My engagement ring

[joskay]

My wife had the same thoughts about a diamond ring as listed by other posts.
After some discussion her engagement ring is a 1969 Camero. She says it is better to have something she looks good in. :)

Re:My engagement ring

[Garridan]

lol. Thats great 'till she crashes it... they say "diamonds are forever" because they're next to invincible. A '69 Camero, in addition to being the very symbol of white trash, will last maybe 200k miles, IF you get lucky and take perfect care of it. But she'll crash it, and divorce your ass. We'll be laughing.

who would have thought...

[outlier]

Who would have thought a question about diamonds of all things would beat out The star fraction

I'm shocked.

Re: but we ARE different from our parents.

[guybarr]

I am ignoring the pill because it's irrelevant. The reason I don't cheat on my intended is not because I might get caught, it's because I believe it is wrong.

and education and society had no effect on your values, on your determination that it's wrong ?

The pill has nothing to do with that decision.

again, not directly on your personal decision, but on monogamy as a whole and it's effect on moral-values ( i.e. what's right/wrong in your society) the pill definately affects, and this in turn, like it or not, affects you.

IMHO, A person should not dispair of all moral issues and decisions because they are subject to historic, genetic, economic, and memetic influences. However, a person would be naive to accept them w/o questioning such influences, their origin and their affect on himself and others.

So yeah, the human race as a whole might still be sorta confused about these new factors, but individuals need not be.

see above, one should not be confused, but rather be skeptical and aware when making important decisions.

As far as gay marriages go, I don't understand the brouhaha.

My point was to give an example on how procreation-related technology (artificial insemination today, genetic modification tommorow) affects the relation between sex and procreation, whose most important manifestation is the institution of marriage (gay or hetro). It seems you have missed that point, perhaps due to me not being clear enough.

I'd be happy to have the law changed so that there are no tax considerations to marriage...I don't think it's appropriate for the State to get involved in what goes on in a bedroom, whether you're gay or straight. At that point, gay couples could put rings on each other's fingers, say "we're married!" and go on about their business. Everybody's happy.

again, you try to answer many questions I did not mention, imply or even am very interested in.

Re: but we ARE different from our parents.

[Moofie]

I take responsibility for my determinations of what is right and wrong. I'm not going to believe what I believe just because I'm told to, and I'm not going to write off my principles just because I happened to inherit parts of them from my parents and teachers.

My beliefs are mine, their relationship to those held by society at large is coincidental and irrelevant to their importance to me. YMMV.

Certainly, technology is going to have a dramatic effect on procreation and, by extension on our society. But those effects are not deterministic (IE they don't force any given human to believe any certain way) and are therefore not relevant to any individual's choices about what is Right and Wrong.

I'm certainly not trying to impose my ideals on everybody...I'm nowhere near wise enough to do that. But my ideals belong to me and me alone, as yours belong to you and you alone. We may share certain tenets, and I may even inherit some from you (or vice versa) but each one of us must take ownership of SOME ideal in order for their life to be meaningful. If you're just the walking-around expression of a selfish gene, I don't think that's a very fulfilling existence. If you're a free-willed, free-thinking individual, unique in your own perspective and empowered to evaluate the world around you, (or even if you BELIEVE yourself to be such a creature), I feel like that's a much more powerful statement of one's life.

Up to you.

HOF trolling

[EchoMirage]

w00t

UGH

[NDPTAL85]

Americans. AMERICANS. Not USians you stupid moron. AMERICANS. We do NOT accept that label you want us to go by simply because there are other "North and South Americans" on this continent.

Intresting reading...

[bartman1847]

I had tried posting this before, but I crashed and didn't feel like typing out all I said... since this thread has died down a lot, I'll be more likely to be herd now by the inquirer... Check this out for some mighty insightful reading. Might change your mind about buying this so called "rare" gem... Check it out here

Antiques and sentimental value

[davemonkey]

I gave my wife an old green sapphire ring that had belonged to my mother. We were pretty tight for cash, and to be frank I thought diamond rings were something that everyone else did. So I gave her one of my Mum's old rings and she couldn't have been happy. Trust me she will be stoked enough just to be asked. And if she insists on diamonds, well start wondering why you're with her.

Human price tags

[Grimalkyn]

When we got engaged, my beloved geek was still finishing his thesis, didn't yet have a job. He said he wanted to wait until he had a real job to get my engagement ring, so he could afford something nicer than his research assistant salary could buy.

While I appreciated the sentiment, I told him I wouldn't wear an engagement ring unless he had a "Property Of" tattoo on his forehead, and some sort of device to show his net worth. They'd serve the same purpose.

The way I've seen most girls show their engagement ring to friends, family, coworkers, classmates--the flourishing, limp-wristed, out-stretched arm with greedy little smile and eyes bright with anticipation of the oohs and ahhs and envy--proves the ring has nothing to do with creating a loving, caring partnership, and everything to do with advertising human value in jewel form.

The engagement ring tradition, at least as manifested in southern university towns, is nothing more than a girl's way to show how much she "sold" for, bragging rights for finding a high-earner. By wearing this price tag when they are out together, the man gets to show how much he could afford to pay for a woman. I'm not sure how this sort of attitude is good for any relationship, no matter how shallow.

claddagh ring

[Art Deco]

I didn't buy my fiance a diamond ring.

I followed the Irish tradition of buying her a Claddagh. Claddagh rings have a heart to symbolize love, hands to symbolize frendship, and a crown (optional) that symbolize loyalty.

Claddagh rings are worn different ways. Worn on the right hand with the heart pointing out means you are available; worn on the right hand with the heart pointing inward means you have prospects (e.g. engaged). Worn on the left hand with the heart pointed inward means you are married.

Not only am I so cheap not to buy the diamond engagement ring I'm so cheap that I'm making her use the same ring as an engagement and wedding band. I'm such a cad! Actually we both like the looks and symbolism of Claddagh rings. After I bought her one she bought one for me. We got ours at James Avery Jewlers; mine was custom since the ring we liked didn't come in men's sizes.

The Victorian Alternative

[crashfrog]

My fiance was smart enough to see through the diamond scam... she was adamant from the beginning that she preferred sapphires. (She dropped a few hints.)

On the other hand, it's all about making her happy. I was lucky enough to find a girl that hadn't pegged her happiness on an engagement stone, no matter what type. So it was easy to make her happy.

Do you know what the history engagement ring?

[wagley]

The history of the ring is to compensate the wife for giving up her life.

Any self respecting women should have an issue with this.

Big Scare

[gryf]

I'm not sure which is the bigger marketing ploy, the pro- or con- side of the argument. Rings have been around longer than talking movies, and De Beers owns nearly the entire diamond market.
Reading about Conflict Diamonds, I find no great connection between buying an engagement ring and endangering kids in Africa. It sounds a lot like the "Eat your food, there are starving kids in Africa" argument. The first half of the sentence has nothing to do with the latter.
There is a greater liklihood, I think, that any given geek will work in a Mac-centric shop than that the purchase of their wife's ring will have supported an African terrorist group.
Yes, I feel for the people who suffer in Africa. What no convienient activism website or post offers, is a hard link between my wife's hand to one lost by a child in Africa. I would suggest, in absence of this evidence and in conjunction with verifiable fact that most diamonds on the retail market here in the US comes from de Beers, that the issue of the conflict diamonds in fact has little bearing on what choice I make for a ring.
I would hope that an educated group such as this would use the same 'assume nothing' approach to an issue as emotionally bound as this as it does to say, a Microsoft security alert.

Try an auction

[TooLazyToLogon]

I got a 2 carat rock for 60 percent of the appraised value. Go to several, I did see a lot of junk. Bring your finacee, after all see is the one that is going to be wearing it.

No diamonds here

[OrigamiSlayer]

My wife told me long before we got engaged that she thinks diamonds are nothing special. She's far more interested in opals. So, she has an opal engagement ring. Some people have commented to us that opals are delicate, so the opal engagement ring is silly. Well, it's lasted 4 years so far.

For another possibility, some friends of mine bought a house together and they consider that their enagagement present. If a house doesn't represent a long-term commitment, what does?

Diamond Alternatives

[UnhandledException]

My Grandma played the piano, and didn't like rings. (Too distracting while playing.) So when grandpa proposed, he gave her a piano.

Diamonds are for never.

[nukeade]

If that's not enough, diamonds are not nearly as valuable as what they sell for. Their value is entirely percieved and is carefully controlled by DeBeers' stockpiling.

Personally, I'm an emerald fan. They are rarer than diamonds, cheaper, and cannot be reproduced by human means easily.

My girlfriend loved the emerald necklace I made for her. I bought a really nice but uncut emerald crystal, a nice mount and chain, and put it together with some silver solder and a pinhead worth of glue.

~Ben

"conflict diamonds" and one way not to buy one

[Nos9]

AFAIK no terrorist organizations currently are capable of producing synthetic diamonds. They are virtually identical to those dug out of the ground (minus the potential child/terrorist labor). Also you can get more varieties for a much more reasonable cost.

a girl's best friend

[danigurlyo]

I'd have to agree that diamonds aren't worth their cost...but damn..they sure look pretty on me!

Re:diamonds?

[danigurlyo]

Umm...are you a moron? I'm just going to assume so and disreguard your comment. I wish I was your fiance' so that when you gave me that frying pan, I could hit you over the head with it...k thx!

Canadian diamond, laser etched

[proxima centauri (W)]

I just thought I would point out this link as I find it very on-topic for this thread:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/26/diamonds02082 6

Re:Canadian diamond, laser etched

[proxima centauri (W)]

Please, take out the next to last digit space out of the string... dunno what happened.... (no space between the 2 and the 6).

Seems like Canada wants its part of the market and are aggressive about it.

Canadian diamond, laser etched

[proxima centauri (W)]

Ok. It seems the link was somehow tempered during the process of posting this...

Here is the link:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/26/diamonds02082 6