Slashdot Mirror
Diamonds - Are They Really Worth the Cost?
hardDiamond asks: "I'm going to get engaged. I know my 4 C's. I know I'm going to get screwed by the jeweller, but that's okay: after all, a diamond engagement ring is a time-honoured tradition... NOT. Having checked out the goods, looked for the flaws, I found the biggest one of all. Diamond engagement rings are the creation of a well orchestrated advertising campaign for most of the last century - according to this article.
Would you buy one for the love of your life? I know my girlfriend would love a diamond, but ethically I have my doubts. Diseased-miners, child slave labour, cartel inflated prices... and as if that wasn't enough, diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch. They'll sell you the shit, but damn it, they're not taking it back at any price. So what have my fellow slashdotters done with regards to engagement rings? What's a good substitute for diamonds? My girlfriend understands my thoughts regarding diamonds, but deep down, I'm sure she would like a diamond. Even a small one." I've never even thought about questioning such a time honored tradition, but now I'm curious. Have any of you looked at the issues surrounding diamonds and found them wanting? What alternatives have you found and were they acceptable?
After researching this a bit, one of the key facts to surface is that 2-4.5% of diamond sales will go to finance terrorism or forms of violence. Such diamonds, for want of a better term, have been named "conflict diamonds". For those of you interested in following up on this subject, here are a few more links:
Fatal TransactionsFor those of you who have a subscription to Science News, the cover story, this month, deals with this issue as well.
Conflict Diamonds: Sanctions and War
The Campaign to Eliminate Conflict Diamonds
The Kimberly Process, which will attempt to track diamonds to their origin. This is to begin in November.
There are none. The girlfriend will be bombarded w/her friends pissing her off w/the fact that she doesn't have one, and how dare her fiance not buy one for her.
My gf's brother just got engaged. His fiance announced this to my gf by saying, "here's mine, where's yours?"
Whether or not this is obnoxious is not the point. Her friends are going to do much the same.
Time honored is true, but expected is more the reality.
Are you SURE that you're not just trying to weasel out of the ring ? :) While you do have some valid concerns, it is a tradition. Traditions don't have to make sense... that's why they're traditions. Plus, your fiance might wonder if you DON'T give her one. Just cough up the cash and best of luck to you both.
Opals are always a nice stone and do have a decent resale value. Of course they're rather hard to find in the US.
Slashdot readers?
Girlfriends?
Marriage?
This has to be some sort of hoax. Is it April already?
"Moderate drinking can help prevent amputated limbs" -- Abigail Zuger, NYTimes, 12/31/02
A proposal means you're asking her to dedicate the rest of her life to you, and yours to her. Give her what she really, really wants (a diamond). An engagement is a once-in-a-lifetime event; save your consumer ethics for more trivial occasions (anniversaries, Christmas, etc).
Thank you, Mr. DeBeers shill! So... did anybody read the article yet besides me?
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
one of the key facts to surface is that 2-4.5% of diamond sales will go to finance terrorism or forms of violence
What percentage of gas sales do you think finance terrorism? Money goes from our hands to the gas companies to oil companies in the Mid-East to (possibly) terrorist organizations. Probably true about many other products as well...
Nike. Just jew it.
I bought my wife's engagement ring from a wholeseller. They're tough to get in with, but if you do a little research and pull it off, you can get a decent sized diamond for literally half the price a "real" jeweler would charge. I got a 1.21 carat for 5 grand. And the problem with the advertising campaign is that it's worked. She may not know the origins of her desire, but you're right, your girlfriend would like a diamond. Almost all of women would. Good luck.
Build up a geek website with a couple of friends, make it popular and propose on the front page a couple of years later.
Trollem mirabilem hanc subnotationis exigiutas non caperet
I agree with most of your other points about the disgusting practices used to produce diamonds and market them.
Antique Ring.
I gave my wife a pretty cool engagement ring from an antique jewelry outfit. Sure, it's 2nd hand, but it has the personality and it doesn't get crazy as far as prices go either.
It seems to me that the purpose of this article really isn't to ask a question, but instead to be a bully-pulpit to rally against the DeBeers monopoly. I don't know if "Ask Slashdot" is an appropriate place for this.
As for the tagged on question at the end, have you considered your fiance-to-be's birth stone? My grandmother had a beautiful ruby and silver engagement ring. If you're not looking for a ring, then it really depends on how much a traditionalist your girlfriend is. Just whatever you do, if you're going to skip the ring option, don't try to weasel out with something less than the cost of a diamond ring, or it's likely she'll suspect that money was the real motivation.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
They're really expensive, but are guaranteed not to have the ethical overhead of others. Plus, they have a cool little polar bear laser-etched into the side (very tiny, you have to use a loupe to see it).
They're called Polar Bear Diamonds.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
My girlfriend told me not to WASTE our money and instead we spent three crazy weeks in Hawaii AND had money in the bank.
God I love her!
Great, i fully expect the bush administration to put out new commercials linking diamond sales to terrorism and urging all "true" americans to stay clear of them. I mean they did the same thing with pot without one proven link between marijuana sales and terrorist organizations.
--aiee
The obvious thing to me is to look for other gem stones that don't have such a dubious cartel infrastucture around them. My wife has a diamond ring but I'm sure she would have been happy with a saffire if I had refused to by a diamond for the reasons you gave - she is ware of "industry" but still likes diamonds none the less.
Many of the Royal wedding engaement rings don't use a single diamond as the centre stone but have used others like Ruby's and emeralds instead - some also have diamonds a "support" stones but you could drop that.
Your other alternative is not to go with a gem stone ring at all. Quite a few of my married friends only have wedding rings. Not because they were marring cheap guys but some for the reasons you cite. In these cases they have much more detailed metal work on the wedding band than the traditional gold band.
The saphire was the traditional engagement ring until DeBeers and Hollywood sold the world on "A diamond is a girl's best friend" in the 30's. I bought my wife a big saphire with two small, high quality diamonds on the side. It is way nicer than a diamond ring, my wife loves it. I didn't save any money, but at least the saphire cartel doesn't rule the world like DeBeers does.
If you look around, there are many women who wear the saphires. Many women like my wife's ring. It is more unique and I didn't feel like I got screwed for the very reasons you describe in your post.
Do your research, deal with someone intelligent. Your wife to be would probaly have an extra $5k on her wedding or in her bank account then on her finger.
Buy a slightly yellower, with small inclusions diamond, you can't see the difference, but they are significantly cheaper. You do want a good cut, it will catch the light and nobody will know the difference.
(Small inclusions can't be seen unaided, a good jeweler will even admit this)
While diamonds may have a low resale value, that's not a critical point. Are you planning on selling this diamond any time soon? No. If you're fortunate enough you may have a better option, see if your grandmother's (or great grandmother's) engagement ring is in the family and available. That's both sensible and heart-touching.
About manufactured diamonds and their history.
currently Gemesis is America's primary manufacturer. They are building a $25m factory for making better/ different colored diamonds. Currently they can make yellow ones, though the show showed clear, and fanciful colored ones (in testing it seems).
They are "real" diamonds, pretty much seeded carbon crystal. Any gemologist can likely tell you they are real diamond, albeit manufactured. AFAIK the cost is a little higher, if not compriable for now.
My fiancee was totally cool with the idea of another kind of stone, or with a fake. Show your girl some pictures of the kids from the mines, you'd be surprised how receptive she gets.
Get a GIANT phoney and she can still brag/lie to her family/friends and secretly feel morally superior.
I gave one to her... 1/3 ct, near-flawless (VVS2), I-colored stone... but the color isn't yellow, it's grey. When put next to similar, yellow-trended diamonds, it looks great.
:)
My advice is to buy the stone loose, and pay a good jewler to put it on a ring. Always make sure you can inspect the stone before you commit the money.
Overall, the final ring with the wedding bands looks really nice, and believe me, she let me know it was worth buying it for her
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Instead of "investing" two months salary in a tiny diamond, why not use that money for a superb honeymoon? That is something you both can enjoy. For example, if you have $20M you might be able to visit Space Station Alpha. ;-)
If she just wants the ring, then perhaps she is a gold digger.
cpeterso
Seriously. If you can't talk to each other about this, then you are fools to even consider marriage. If you would rather get /. opinions on this than talk it over with the gf, then you aren't ready.
Infuriate left and right
it used to be tradition for every white family to have (and inherit) a family of black slaves.
nowadays, even the suggestion of such a thing disgusts many people.
times change. traditions change. break the mould, don't get stuck in it.
But I can't decide what my reaction should be:
Well, if people weren't willing to hand over tons of cash to overpay for somebody else's marketing campaign then more of the worthless a$$holes of the world would be asking us for change on the street instead of designing crass public art.
Really, now: Don't pretend you've got a brain and use it if you're going to hit its snooze button every time a Big Lie comes along.
Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
For all those doubting whether diamonds are worth it, please see this picture. You will learn to appreciate diamonds :-)
S.t.e.v.e.
I think the "diamond engagement ring" tradition started in the US and spread outwards.
If it really bothers you that much, maybe she would be happy with an imitation diamond. She still gets the ring to show to her friends and to stand as... a symbol of commitment or what have you. With the money you save, spring for a really great honeymoon, or figure out some other way to spend the money that's memorable and perhaps more genuine then the ring. Then again, women are irrational and none of the above is likely to work. :)
Unless your girlfriend is likely to buy into any of this, it's a battle you don't even want to bring up.
The one alternative is to (carefully) ask her if she would like to have a plain wedding band for the sake of not being ostentacious. You have to do this carefully, however, so it will not look like you're just a cheap bastard.
Failing that (and you probably will), take a visit to your local city's jewelry district. I got my wife's good sized diamond at about 1/3 the price of a jeweler. In particular I went to the jewelrly district in Los Angeles. The prices are awesome.
However, they will rip you off if you give them half a chance. Either go to someone who is recommended to you, or bring along someone who is knowledgeable. Someone who is good at negotiation doesn't hurt, either.
If you do end up going to a normal store (or God help you, the mall), don't be afraid to ask for a discount. If you're getting into high triple digits or quadruple digit dollars, they WILL give you a discount. All you have to do is ask.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
A good account of the state of the art two years ago can be found in the transcript of a NOVA show on diamond synthesis: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2703diamo nd.html
You have some choices; you can buy gold wedding bands made from gold mined in Wales; no slave labor in Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwyll-llantysil iogogogoch methinks.
You can buy antique diamond rings; you will then not be supporting the modern diamond trade, and will also have something that has a determinable resale value for when you need to take back control of Slashdot.
Ethical / fair trading has entered into the cocoa and coffee sectors, but has yet to penetrate the diamond mining industry. This may be the way forward to stop the pernicious influence of the current buying and selling structure on the countries blessed with deposits. Until then, you have to either do without, or go antique to keep your wife's hands clean (literally).
ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi
Well, unless you have a minor surgery performed. Our neighbors, instead of wedding rings, got wedding tattoos. It really is the coolest thing. My wife and I are going to do the same on our anniversary. :) And that'll be one less thing for her to have to deal with on her normal female emotional roller coaster. No offense to the ladies here; it's just my experience.
It can never be lost. It doesn't ever need adjusted really, maybe touched up. And you can never just take it off, so you'll never have to be tempted.
i certainly appreciate the points that are made about how diamonds are mined and the impact on the regions that mine them.
but i bet if the diamond cost $45 and still had the same emotional impact, the issue wouldn't really come up.
(that said, i saw a cool site on the web once that would take an ekg from you or your loved one and inscribe on the inside of a plain platinum, gold or silver band. pretty neat. if i find the link, i'll post it.)
go get it
Tradition? Gimme a friggin break. The US is too young to have traditions, kerr-rrrist. Women and diamond rings remind me of that movie, "The Gods Must be Crazy", where the natives find an empty Coke bottle and worship it as some kind of..umm...err...worshipped item. Seriously, women are like little monkeys when they see rings, but y'know, all it is, is a friggin rock attached to some shiny metal. "Oohh, look at shi-nee met-tal...perty, ain't it". Geez. Materialistic women need to get with reality and stop the pretentious b.s. If you love someone, it'll be in yer heart, not on a f@!*ckin finger. Leave the symbols to the symbol-minded (as a Carlinist I couldn't resist that one!). If you can't afford her, she's not worth it.
My wife is Japanese, and we didn't have to go through ANY of this lame b.s. We got married in Japan without a stadium-sized crowd and did a tea ceremony. There were no "trinkets" exchanged, only love expressed through ACTION. Now I'm all for diamond rings as a gift, or to show appreciation, but if a woman requires a ring for engagement - if it takes a manmade little rock and metal craft to make her smile, then her heart is in the wrong place.
Hell, *she* might even believe it, but if you proceed not go get her one she will hold it against you the rest of her life. She'll show her mom and her friends the ring and get repeated "where's the rock, honey?" responses. When she's forty and has divorced you (at least party due to her deep-seated, semi-subconsious rage), she will tell her other single friends about you and they will laugh "Sex In The City"-style.
We all know that buying diamonds just enriches the DeBeers company and furthers their monopoly. We all know that it's a big scam. We all know we're tossing our money away on an essentially useless item which could become a commodity at any time. None of this matters.
Go to dirtcheapdiamonds.com or a trusted non-mall jeweler and buy the goddamn diamond. There's no way that the few thousand dollars you'd save would be worth the years of misery you'd be setting yourself up for.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
http://canadian-diamonds.theshoppe.com/canadian_di amond_mining.htm
to quote: Canadian diamonds treasured by the worlds diamond experts. Sought after for their incredible beauty and brilliance. Mined in accordance to the highest ethical standards.
I believe everything I read on the Internet, of course, but hey, worth a look - especially if you want to REALLY surprise her with the kneeling and the asking and the whatnot.
I am a leaf on the wind
Seeing as how I had no idea how to pick a ring, I bought a $20 engagement ring for my wife. When I proposed I gave it to her and told her it was a symbol and that we could pick the ring of her choice for her. She refused and said she didn't want any other ring. She said that was the ring I gave to her and it was the most beautiful ring in the world.
Better than diamonds or opals are emeralds.
Emeralds are actually more rare than diamonds, and so are worth more.
"All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening."
- Alexandar Woolcot
Premarital sex was not invented in the 1960s, and has in fact been around ever since just before the first marriage. Of course, back in the good old days, a good girl would never have sex before wedlock. However, some were willing to bend the rules once they were engaged. So, men quickly discovered that you could ask a woman to marry you, have sex with her, and then break off the engagement.
Up until 1935, this was considered an actionable tort in 47 of the 48 states. A woman who was deceived in this way could sue for the value of her lost virginity and subsequent difficulty in acquiring a husband. State legislatures passed laws against these suits in the 1930s and 1940s.
So, after this ability was removed, women needed a new way to ensure that a man proposing marriage really meant it. It became social custom that a man asking for marriage would post a performance bond equivalent to about twice his monthly salary. This bond would be forfeitable upon his breaking off of the engagement, but returnable if she broke off the engagement. This 'bond' was implemented as a diamond ring, because it was an easy way to, er, 'crystalize' two months of his salary in an easy-to-handle package.
In essence, the engagement ring is a private reimplementation of a canceled government policy.
Its not the size that matters, but how well it cuts through glass. :-)
Or am I being hopelessly naive somehow? (it wouldn't be the first time
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
The long-standing tradition of a diamond engagement ring was manufactured in 1939. Prior to that, mostly royalty indulged in the idea. It was only after the big diamond discoveries in South Africa caused diamond prices to plummet that DeBeers used an advertising campaign to popularize the rings.
I recommend a good opal ring. Beware of manufactured opal (though it's usually more spectacular than natural opal), and beware of a honey-orange colored opal that may have been colored artificially using a particle beam and may actually be radioactive!
When I proposed to my fiancee a couple months ago, I didn't have a ring at all. We joked that she was getting a $300,000 ring, the house we were in the process of contracting to be built. And she was just fine with this. However, a ring is expected by a lot of people. And she did want one to show off. Plus we had the perfect idea. She had her grandmother's ring, which had 3 diamonds in a rather ugly setting (everyone agrees on this, even her mother). We had it reset in a platinum and gold setting for a relatively reasonable cost. And it's better than any ring I could have bought her.
.95 instead of 1.
You can always get another stone as well. There is no rule that says it has to be a diamond. The first engagement ring I bought, several years ago, was a created sapphire. There are many semi-precious stones out there that are quite beautiful. Depending on your girlfriend's preferences, you may have a lot of options.
Having said that, if she wants a diamond, then it's worth it to get it. Just keep in mind that you don't need an internally flawless diamond. A VVS1 or 2 will do just fine, and a VS1 or 2 is going to be OK too. As you have noted, diamonds really don't have a resale value, and how many people are going to be looking at it through a scppe after you purchase it? Same goes for color. Get a G-H, or F. And as for the carats, you'll pay a bit less if you stay just under the round numbers, so
The one thing you really want to make sure is excellent is the cut. This is something you want to be as close to ideal as possible. A friend of mine recently got married, and her well-off husband got her a rather large diamond for her engagement ring. When I looked at it, I was horribly underwhelmed. It was a poor cut, and reflected very little light. It looked flat. And this is not a man that I would have expected to miss the details.
I know you know the 4 Cs, but it's always worth repeating, and elaborating on how to get a better deal using what you know.
-Todd
"The details of my life are quite inconsequential..."
If she insists on having a ring, she's a goldigger.
If her friends pester her for not having a ring, and she then pesters you afterwards, since you're on Slashdot, you're too smart for that kind of broad. Ditch the bitch, then.
From the article:
...or because it takes a professionally-certified gemologist to discern the actual quality of a gem. Of course diamonds have no value on eBay - people don't want to buy them without certificates of authenticity, an AGA-backed jeweler to verify them, etc.
The diamond engagement ring is a 63-year-old invention of N.W.Ayer advertising agency. The De Beers diamond cartel contracted N.W.Ayer to create a demand for what are, essentially, useless hunks of rock.
63 years old? That wouldn't explain the Crown Jewels of England or the historicity of diamonds' value dating back hundreds of years.
You can only sell it at a diamond purchasing center or a pawn shop where you will receive a tiny fraction of its original "value."
Of course, if this were true it would mean that apparantely all insurance companies have been duped as well.
The valid points of the objections are that the diamond trade has been used to propagate slavery, fuel wars, etc. Many jewelers can now tell you the exact origin of your diamond, from mine to showroom.
My girlfriend made it VERY clear she didn't want a big fat-ass diamond on her hand; she wanted something special. Black Pearl was mentioned, and so I had a mutual jeweller friend whip up a nice ring that I presented to her in the back of a Checker Marathon taxicab in Kalamazoo Michigan.
The ring's main item is a BLACK PEARL. Let me tell you, that gets a lot more attention than any diamond.
It looks like
this and this.
At the last second, I asked that he throw a few token diamonds around the edge. They were tiny, almost ornamental. And the ring barely scraped four figures. Barely.
Best choice we ever had, avoiding the fat-ass diamond.
It depends on the girl. If you propose to someone who sees through the Matrix, then there are other possibilities. Seriously, I know a few girls that honestly don't care. Two of my friends married with gold bands, and others who saw this said they'd do the same. Another friend of mine is single, but she says she doesn't want a diamond for exactly the same reason as the article submittor mentioned; she's too conscious both of the direct abuses of the industry and the costs to society when we're sold a bill of goods that way.
There's also a whole set of people who are in between. They don't really care about the diamond, but they do care about the appearances and don't want to take flak from society. I know a number of couples in this category who've just gone cubic zirconia.
There are also girls who are totally caught by the mythos the diamond/jewelry people have sold society. If you think your life will be happier living with one of these girls, then your choice is clear. You pay the price, just like you pay the price by accepting the downsides of anyone's character in return for the positives and possibilities they have to offer.
A friend of mine from a very outside-the-mainstream family actually makes jewelry. She took a guitar string, and very neatly rolled it up into a ring for me (this is harder to do well than it sounds). She knew I was thinking about a special someone, and suggested I take it to a smith and have them coat it with a prescious metal (so's not to turn one's finger green, a practical consideration, as well as the aesthetic value), and give it to said someone. Anyone who knows me would know there was a lot of personal meaning tied up in the gesture. Enough to overpower the personal legend marketed to women? Again, it would depend on the woman. But I'm toying with the idea of proposing that way (if not actually leaving said ring as the sole physical token), and I think that how a potential fiancee/wife would respond to that might say a lot about her potential as a suitable fiancee/wife for me.
Tweet, tweet.
Bottom line, pre-owned jewelry is the easiest way to afford something you can't get at a mall store, and you won't get fleeced. :)
Alright. Let's review. You post on Slashdot. You have a girl you are going to marry.
You are a nerd with a girlfriend.
Most of the people here rarely talk to girls (no, its not flamebait; im one of them), let alone marry them! Buy her a diamond ring you idiot!
My girlfriend understands my thoughts regarding diamonds, but deep down, I'm sure she would like a diamond. Even a small one.
Then BUY HER ONE!!!!!
I'm not married, but I am in a serious relationship and have been for about 4 years. I'm sure I'm not the first to tell you this, but if you love her, right now is not the best time to wage your anti-tradition diamond ban. You don't want to spend a ton? Buy a smaller diamond, you said yourself she will probably still want at least a small one.
And if resale value is a major concern, is this a person you really feel comfortable proposing to / marrying? Be sure before you buy the rock. And good luck!
Mark
What the. That's all my lifes savings.
Disclaimer: I view men and women as equals and concluding otherwise is taking this post out of context.
Personally, I'll pay the extra money for a fine metal because I DO care about the quality of an engagement ring. However, a high quality metal and rare stone a $5K ring is not. The problem we have here is a market force that has created a cultural "need" for women to have an overpriced piece of trash on their finger. Women on one hand want to be treated equally, but on the other hand want us to spend a rediculous amount of money on virtually nothing. Not only is this an insult to their intelligence, it is pure hypocracy. Until women Get Over It men will be pressured into "showing their love" through thousands of dollars while a few businessmen laugh at the cultural flaw that makes them billions.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
She wants a diamond. You want her.
Buy her the damned ring, you idiot!
Q.E.D.
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
My wife and I are still looking for the perfect ring, and we've been married for almost 12 years!! Stay focused on love and make sure that you both communicate your feelings, this is MUCH more important than any material items!!
*narf!*
If the lady does not share your beliefs about social justice, there may be a rocky road ahead. If you find diamonds ethically unacceptable (which they are, in my view), then any woman you marry should respect your feelings.
As an old married, I recommend doing what's in your heart, and forget the dammed rules imposed by a commercial society.
My marriage didn't have an auspicious chart. I proposed in the wrong place, both of us were out of work at the time, her parents hated me, an old boyfriend was harrassing her, and she was 7 years older than I -- a true recipe for disaster. We couldn't afford "good" rings, so we bought a couple of $10 silver rings in a mall, found a free minister, and were married outdoors at the Garden of the Gods in Colorado Springs.
We've been happily married for 20 years. We don't wear our rings; our bond is something stronger than a simple band of metal. The best spouse is one who sticks with you through he|| and high water, just as you stick with her.
All about me
which means that you should be able to find a second-hand diamond somewhere. People die but diamonds don't.
Has anyone noticed that women like useless stuff? I mean they love rings, jewelry, fashion, flowers, candles, etc. Stuff that is completely useless yet costs plenty of money. I wish I knew why.
You've never had a girlfriend, have you?
Look, women think differently than men on some issues, but you disregard that point of view only at your great peril. So fucking what if sending flowers is stupid? If it makes your girl feel loved, well, mission accomplished.
Don't be a goon.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch. They'll sell you the shit, but damn it, they're not taking it back at any price.
Odd - second hand diamond rings certainly sell for close to new prices. Also when I bought my wife a diamond pendant in Amsterdam for our anniversary (erm 2nd, not 60th!) it came with a buy-back guarantee that was valid indefinitely for a large proportion of the price (I think 90% but it was a few years ago now).
My wife didn't get an engagement ring. We went from "Will you marry me?" to "I do" within a few weeks. Don't ever let anyone tell you that unplanned pregnancies aren't good for anything.
My parents were hippies. Dad gave Mom an emerald engagement ring with small diamonds in the setting. They exchanged necklaces with azure bands at their wedding. Since Mom liked emeralds so much, once or twice a decade, Dad would get her another peice of expensive emerald jewelry. They divorced, just like everyone else, but diamonds was never a sticking point. Ok, I've got a better example.
:)
A friend of mine proposed to his wife by going to a local jeweler and paying him a couple hundred dollars for the privilege of borrowing his emerald stock. He took his girlfriend out to dinner, pulled a silk handkerchief out of his suit pocket, poured 200 emeralds into a little pile on the table, and asked her if she'd like to pick one for an engagement ring.
She didn't complain about not getting a diamond. That's for damn sure.
Another excellent option is antique jewelry. If you have the time to do a lot of inquiry, and you stay in the same price range, you could wind up with a much much more interesting and stylish ring. An antique diamond ring, IMHO, would not be supporting violence in exactly the same way. And your girlfriend wouldn't be upset.
All that said, I can't tell if you mean what you say. If you know what your girlfriend would like, you're going to have to think of a way to make her at least that excited about something else before you take it away. She's going to get idiotic comments from her friends in any case if you can't afford some gaudy monstrosity. Figure it out so that she'll be blown away no matter what. If you're not sure, do more figuring. Ideally, she'll be blown away, and it will be affordable. But the affordable part should be the first to go
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Neither my wife nor I liked the aesthetics of diamonds. We just didn't think that they looked that good on her. So we looked at other gemstones, and wound up with a ruby set with three small diamonds. The red and gold look great together, and match her color preferences much better than a gold-set diamond would. Thirteen years later it still looks good, and she still gets complements on it.
If you are thinking in terms of social statements -- whether the social conventions concerning diamonds on the one hand or the questionable ethics of their production on the other -- you might be ignoring the fact the ring is jewelry, and not just symbolism. Sure, a big diamond has a lot of symbolic value now. But that won't mean you and your wife will like the way it looks five years from now.
let me ask this - Have you tried talking to her? That's going to be your only truly successful way of finding out what she wants and what you should do... though I think it's cool you went to slashdot first, but perhaps you should have tried the message boards at WeddingChannel.com instead?
:)
Due to the problems in diamond production and war conflicts in the regions, getting a diamond alternative, or perhaps a family heirloom diamond are perfectly reasonable alternatives.
But for heaven's sake - ASK HER what she wants!!! Most of my girlfriends and women I chat with online would prefer shopping for a ring with their boyfriends to *guarantee* they get something they like, as opposed to a total surprise with a fugly ring. My husband took me with him, and made the proposal itself a total surprise.
And here we are today, happily married almost two years after we first went ring shopping together
Best of luck to you, and you know she'll say yes!
If your gf is so stupid that she falls for the transparent propaganda of de Beers, junk her and save the money. It won't last anyway.
I asked my fiancee (now wife) if she wanted a diamond engagement ring, with the full intent to buy whatever she wanted, even if I thought it was silly.
She thought it was silly too. She said, I don't want an engagement ring, I want a new bathtub!
So we got a double-ended old fashioned bathtub (and remodeled the bathroom around it), which we take a bath in together almost every day (it's large).
It's the single best decision we've made in our 4 years together, and I'm confident we'll still be saying that when its 40 years, and we're still taking baths together.
Buying the diamond is a "labor of love" to prove to the chick that you will stick around instead of impregnating her and then suddenly disappearing, netting you genetic proliferation, and burdening her with child rearing expense.
No, it doesn't really make sense in a society with rational beings, but marriage is based upon the premise that two untrustworthy animals want to make a deal.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Well, not many, anyway. My wife told me before I even proposed to her that she had not much interest in diamonds, let alone big showy ones. She also dislikes yellow gold, so I ended up getting her a white gold ring set with sapphires (and a few tiny diamonds around each of the sapphires), along with a matching bracelet and pendant. (We had somehow -- entirely coincidental, I'm sure ;) -- ended up on the topic of gemstones a few months before I proposed, so I had learned her likes and filed it away.)
Since then I've also gotten her a heart-shaped blue topaz pendant and a pearl-and-(small-)diamond pendant; plus, we got married, and her wedding ring itself is a thin, white gold band set with a few tiny diamonds in a V-shaped notch. (My own ring is a plain white gold band; I don't like yellow gold much, either.)
The whole "two months salary" thing was a decades-long marketing attack by DeBeers. If I had spent two months' salary on her engagement ring, it would have cost around $5,000, which we both agree is a ridiculous amount of money to spend on something that is very shiny but extremely useless (scroll down till you see the chart). Yes, she likes jewelry, but we both (for slightly different reasons) detest the idea that spending more money automatically equals you love her more. My wife is never happier than when I clean things around the apartment, unbidden by her -- and it doesn't require me to spend thousands of dollars to do so.
If your fiancee honestly wants a big diamond, either because it springs from her own heart or because she's been convinced by the marketdroids, well, go ahead and get it for her. If, like so many women recently, she's shucked the "must have big diamond... MUST HAVE BIG DIAMOND" cliche, find out what gems she really does like.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
You spend ~$2k for a machine that crunches numbers and lets you escape into a virtual fantasy world for a few hours a day.
Ah, *GREAT* suggestion! Buy her a kickass computer instead. Rather than just lying around gathering dust, waiting for her to lose it (or pawn it if you happen to fall into the over 50% of Americans that later get a divorce), it will let her "crunch numbers" and "escape into a virtual fantasy world". What more could she ask?
And, rather than having no resale value due to its inherently useless nature (referring to diamonds), if she *does* eventually decide to pawn it, it has no value for a much better reason, namely, faster machines will exist. All very poetic, extends the idea of "looking for a newer model" into a whole new realm.
Actually, though, if she *really* wants a ring, use the $2-5k as a downpayment on a chunk of land somewhere. Have a pebble from the plot set into a ring, and when she looks at you like you have just grown a third head, explain the meaning. If she doesn't like it more than a similar pebble from South Africa, ditch the impractical wench.
People seem to act like love depends on giving a woman a particularly expensive lump of rock. If it *does*, find someone less materialistic.
>>they have a great texture to them
The texturing isn't that great. Whoever made them should go back and redo the bump mapping. And a little anisotropy wouldn't hurt.
Well, one of the things is, it's damn hard to chip or scratch a diamond. Once she's got it, it's not going to get broken.
That's a big plus, especially for my wife, who tends to break and scratch her non-diamond gems quite often.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
I had a jeweler once tell me that an engagement diamond is an "investment". I had to laugh.. do you wait 10 years and sell it for a profit?
It's a symbol. A symbol that you really will spend thousands of dollars on a rock to decorate her finger.
And don't kid yourself.. she wants one -- badly. As big a one as you can afford, since her friends will be looking at it to measure your worth.
You can wish and pretend that we're beyond that, and that it's not really so, but then wake up and buy the best diamond you can afford. If you ever live to regret it, it will be the least of your expense and headaches anyway.
at the mean time, please realize that diamonds are not all that precious (material-wise), and it's under heavy monopolic powers (deBeers). however, platinum IS, so get a good platinum band and engrave something on there.
here is a good link on diamonds and the such.
p.s. artificial diamonds are making good progress. it (crystal structure) is getting too perfect until they exhibit phosphorescence. which is how they distinguish artificial diamond now. ha! (the most perfect diamonds are actually worthless. isn't that amazing?)
anyway. ask her if a dual G4+dual CinemaHD would cut it engagement-wise =)
My life in the land of the rising sun.
That's the whole point of the engagement ring -- to show her that you'd spend a lot of money on something which seems frivolous and generally useless to you because SHE's worth it.
You're not alone in thinking, "Jewelry? What can I do with that?", but I suspect you'll come to the same conclusion most of us married guys came to when we were searching for a ring. Remember: It's not about you, it's about her. Buy what makes her happy.
Watch her face when she first sees it and see if it isn't worth the price.
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
oops Hit the enter key instead of the tab... oh well.
Anyway, If you are about to get married I thought you would have known by now.
It's not about what you want.
Go ahead and mock me but most everyone I know that IS married will agree. Ones that have only "been dating a really long time" will argue with me till they're blue in the face... Untill they have been married for a couple years.
Please be patient, I'm a work in progress! --Alan Jackson
Much like the megahertz myth, the need for a diamond engagement ring has been cultivated through careful marketing and peer pressure.
But.
The cost of NOT getting this diamond ring may be the relationship itself. It may not occur right away (she might still accept your proposal) but this will be a major disappointment to a woman who has had an engagement ring (or a rock as my ex-girlfriend called it), and it just might set the tone for the rest of your time together.
As has been pointed out elsehwhere in this very thread, gasoline, diamonds, honey, opium, and a whole bunch of other products all contribute to terrorism or cruel treatment of our fellow humans or various other badnesses in the world.
In the end, though, it will be infinitely easier to get a fuel-efficient car and switch away from various other products than it will be to alter the mindset of the woman (and ALL of her friends) who considers not where it came from or how it got there, but merely that it is on her finger.
So, if you want to get married and start of on the right foot with her, you should of course shop for the best value you can find in your budget and so on, but yes, the diamond is worth it.
[save your energy... cede her victory on this one, fight the good fight when she wants to know why you are "wasting" so much money on a cable modem/DSL, fast graphics cards, etc.]
But basically, unless you pass the following test, I suspect that deep down you are looking for an excuse to be cheap:
Unless you do all of those things, I would posit that you are already contributing to unethical behavior with your participation in commerce. If you do do all those things, and your g/f isn't open to the no diamond idea although she will jump through those hoops, then she is being hypocritical.
I say buy her the diamond and have a wonderful life together. Coming from a happily engaged man (who both bought and used inheritted diamonds)
_sig_ is away
Man + Money (Diamonds) = Woman
Don't you see? In that equation, men are of less value than women. She doesn't care about the diamond at all. Why would she; as you say diamonds cannot be sold. Her interest is that you establish yourself as of lesser value in the relationship; in that kind of relationship she will have control.
If you truly understand what's happening here you need to do two things: 1) Either call off the marriage or investigate the true nature of your relationship, and 2) Definitely avoid any action which indicates you are an inferior, such as buying a diamond.
If you have a wedding, will she wear white, the color of an angel? And will you wear black, the color of a villain?
Don't get into anything important that you can't or don't understand.
That new computer that set you back $2000 is going to be a boat anchor in a couple of years. How long do you expect your relationship to last? What are you willing to spend on it? (Because those "wife" and "motherhood" upgrades are going to make that ring look like chump change.)
Buying diamonds: Local mall shops are good for getting a feel for what the 4-C's mean. But for god's sake, don't buy from them. First of all, what they have is crap. Second, it's extremely overpriced crap. (Well above the "list" price.)
In most major cities there are some major diamond vendors. In Pittsburgh, they're downtown in the Clark building. They are worth checking out. These guys will sell diamonds at the "list" price.
Now check out BOMI. Call them -- Their website is best used for the phone numbers. Bomi sells for under the "list" price. Their merchandise is top notch. And they do mail-order. (Sprite, if you are reading this, this is why your stone was 50% larger and a grade better in quality than you thought I could afford.)
Oh, and in case you've overlooked the obvious: Get it insured! Talk to the folks who are selling your homeowners insurance, renters insurance, or at worse, car insurance, and see about adding to your policy.
I built the website for, and helped run a company that sells discount diamonds on the web. Over the course of working for them, I became pretty cynical about the industry. The diamond market is incredibly over-priced and price-fixed. It was very easy for us to undercut retail jewelers because they typically mark up diamonds by 3x wholesale. (this is actually recommended by all of the wholesalers I've seen).
On the other hand, diamonds do look much better than CZ, and you can always tell the difference when they are next to each other, especially under natural lighting. Moissanite, however, look very close and can even fool less skilled jewelers.
Diamonds *do* have resale value. Some dealers won't want your diamond, because they don't want to risk getting de-frauded, but many dealers do buy good used diamonds, and it isn't hard to sell a decent diamond in the newspaper or forums.
I personally think stones like ruby, sapphire or emerald are more beautiful and more rare. I bought my fiancee a diamond (wholesale for me of course) because I was concerned that she would be self-concious around friends if I didn't. Would they think I didn't value her as much?
In the end, I think buying a diamond is one of those things that doesn't make much sense, but you will take a lot of crap if you ignore it, kinda like women changing their last name when they get married or celebrating Christmas. But if your fiancee doesn't mind, and you don't mind taking some crap from friends, then you can save the money.
When you buy a Ti ring, make sure you don't get aircraft grade Ti or any of the other super-hard alloys that are commonly sold. Stick with pure unalloyed Ti. If you have an emergency and are wearing an aircraft-grade Ti ring, many E.R.'s won't be able to easily cut it off.
1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If a "few people" know, then be assured that everyone knows. Something like that is the kind of thing that even the best of friends, in a moment of envy, will spill to others.
I really don't get the cubic zirconia deal (and just wait until you get in a fight and one of the things thrown in your face is how much of a "Cheap bastard" you are buying a cz): Either you go with the tradition and uniqueness of a diamond ring, or do something different altogether (no one says that one has to have something diamond like). I got my wife a diamond because it's tradition and it's what she really wanted (and compared to all the toys I've bought myself and had bought for me, the cost of the diamond wasn't at all onerous). If she didn't want a diamond then I would have gotten her something different altogether.
1. Ruby
2. Emerald
3. Diamond
4. Sapphire
...and is the value in order from greatest to least for the expensive faceted stones in the 4 C system. As for your GF, I have been told by several women that they will drop clues as to which specific ring to buy by pointing it out and expecting you to remember.
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
Never buy a diamond as an investment. The only exception to this is antique diamonds. The signature of the diamond and any inclusions or flaws it has can point to the mine it came from. Some mines no longer produce diamonds and thus antique diamonds from such places are worth much more, on the collector market.
Another exception to diamonds, and a really beautiful alternative, is to try colored diamonds. Yellow, Red and Blue/BlueGreen diamonds are SPECTACULAR. Super bright and super colorful. Additionally, their rariety is greater thus it puts it out of the normal diamond market and into collector stones (but be prepared to pay alot more).
The basic premise I'm going by here is that, regardless of your love intent etc... you also want the purchase to get more valuable over time (much as your love will grow), as opposed to being a loss as soon as you leave the store.
Another possibility is that you use minimal diamonds, for their sparkle, along with other rarer gemstones. Alexandrite is one of the rarest now (especially color changing alexandrite which shifts from red to green depending on whether your in natural or artifical light). Most of the mines are completely mined out - and the remaining mine only produces smaller and smaller stones, so any alexandrite would probably be a great investment (until, that is, a huge undiscovered alexandrite mine is found). Likewise for tanzanite - which has a horrid series of stories about brutality in the mine industry (though you can say that about all gemstones, including diamonds).
Finally, consider not using stones at all. When I got married we found a metalsmith that took gold and crafted it into mobius strip wedding rings (one-sided one-edged rings)... they were outstanding, and rather comfortable as well. No stones, but certainly one-of-a-kind and chock full of all sorts of hidden meanings (and the two rings together cost a paltry $90 - in the early 80's).
An engagement is a once-in-a-lifetime event; save your consumer ethics for more trivial occasions (anniversaries, Christmas, etc).
Absolutely. Be proud of those ethics so long as they don't really interfere with anything you care about.
Nope, no sig
It is planted in one of our city parks, is professionally cared for, and has a sign that declares My Love to Her. A ring would have been cheaper. The tree cost $6000.00 which would have bought a very nice rock.
Our wedding was under the tree. We are planning to buy a bench to place under the tree as soon as the city allows.
Get a free ipod.
Flowers don't cost as much as a new car. That's the difference there.
Asking a few thousand of his closest friends for suggestions, before going to her for that discussion, is a very useful thing to do.
But note that a gentleman will NOT discuss the actual relationship itself - either during or after - in a way that will reveal a lady's secrets or reflect badly on her.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
What did you give him in return? Sex?
Now, if DeBeers ever falls apart, diamonds will be worth about as much as it costs to put and polish them.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Don't pawn it, sell it.
I know there are some people who go for the alternative side. We certainly like to try to spend our money in ways that have the most benefit.
The principle behind the diamond is to symbolize your commitment. You're telling her that you want to spend the rest of your life with her. Resale value? Are you sure that marriage is the right next step? Perhaps there are some more conversations to have.
I've been proudly and happily married to the love of my life for almost 2 years.
Better quality diamonds are able to be man made for cheaper. But, a good jeweler won't serve them. Volunteer to make up for your conscience. Show your love by finding a good jeweler, being honest, and buying what she deserves. First, find out why you're worrying about resale value and take care of it.
I agree, diamonds are a scam. But, how much do we spend on video cards and cpu upgrades that don't last any time and only offer a minor increase?
This is something she'll have FOREVER. Just buy it and consider it an investment in your future together. My wife has a small diamond that I bought when I had no money and she loves it as much as a huge diamond that cost a mint... It's the thought that she wants.
Only a fool will give two months of his life in exchange for a pretty rock.
In a decade or so, the woman who sells that rock to a pawn shop for 15% of what you paid for it will be known to your friends as "the bitch", and most of them will not even be able to recall her given name. You'll be known to her friends as "the asshole", and they'll know of flaws you never had.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against marriage, my current wife, or my ex-wives, or any of my as-yet unknown future ex-wives.
Still, a diamond meets none of a human being's basic needs, has no true utility, and loses much of its emotional value quickly.
There's nothing more romantic than putting her name on a mortgage.
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
Right. That's why all those slaves were constantly laughing at the plight of the Irish immigrants, and were really sad to lose those comfortable and prestigious slave positions when that bastard Abe Lincoln had them all fired. Also, those chains were just fashion accessories; deep down, they didn't really want to escape or murder their owners or anything.
The truth is, Irish immigrants chose to take shitty and dangerous jobs for the money, becuase they had just fled conditions of abject poverty and starvation back in Ireland. Blacks, on the other hand, were hauld to America like cargo, lived their whole lives in bondage, doing hard labor from the moment they could walk, and were casually discarded when (or, rather, if) they got old.
I find it a little astonishing that Southern revisionism of the brutal facts of slavery still continue to this day.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Pawn shop.
Genuine antiques without the markup.
And you can always take the stone out and have it put in a new or different setting.
---
Watch out if your jewler wants to cut a diffraction pattern in a used ring to make it new - for free. He gets to keep the gold removed by the cutting process - more than enough to pay for his efforts - and fine surface patterns in gold wear smooth quickly so the effect lasts only a year or less.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
There are other, less oppressive, countries to obtain diamonds from.
Where?
Canada.
What? Canada?
There are only Igloos and Eskimos (Inuit) up there, right?
Not so, there are also Polar Bears.
http://www.siriusdiamonds.com/home.htm
If you're Canadian, buy Canadian.
If you're American, buy North American.
Just a suggestion.
Hearing those in the traditional diamond business talk about the "threat of synthetic diamonds" always amuses me. I can't help but think that if Americans (or, heck, people in general) were more comfortable with the nature of matter (and science in general), this wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.
What I see is that two diamonds, atomically indistinguishable, can be viewed in different ways by the same person. Why? Because one of the diamonds gestated deep in the earth for thousands of years, and the other was created in a lab in an hour two weeks ago. There is some kind of emotional response to really old things that are forged by the fires of the deep... yadda yadda.
Well, what is a diamond? Literally, it's nothing more than carbon atoms arranged in a particular structure. Any two carbon atoms are indistinguishable (assuming they're the same isotope, say C12). The carbon atoms in the synthetic diamond are the same millions of years old as the carbon atoms in the "real" diamond... but the "real" diamond's carbon was down inside the earth, and the synthetic diamond's carbon was tooling around on the surface, probably in the form of biomass for the most part.
So let's say you take one carbon atom from the surface, and one carbon atom from deep inside the earth. Well, they aren't diamonds yet, they're just carbon atoms. Indistinguishable. If you put them in a box and shook the box, when you opened it again, you would never be able to inspect the atoms and tell which one had been the deep atom and which had been the surface atom. So now you take a few more atoms from each location and start adding them to the original atom, to form microscopic diamonds. Let's say each one is formed from 100 carbon atoms. Not much of a diamond, and certainly nobody would care about the difference. Now you up it to 1,000 atoms. Is it a "real" diamond, worthy of emotional differences due to the source of the atoms now? If not now, when? 10,000 atoms? A million? A billion? A trillion?
I think it's entirely a function of recent history that there's any kind of stigma at all against synthetic things that are otherwise identical to "real" things. When we get to the point where the ring-buying population (twentysomethings) has grown up with the idea of synthetic diamonds being just as good (if not better) than the "real" thing, not to mention cheaper, things will, hopefully, change.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
There are diamond mines in Northern Canada (http://www.wholesalecanadiandiamonds.com/ - you can browse and buy online), and you won't be supporting terrorists, slave labour, civil war, etc, etc (though you will be supporting our socialist health-care system).
Of course, that doesn't help if you think we are being force-fed a useless commodity.
For that, go for a small diamond set with other stones (rubies, emeralds, etc). Or go for a small ring and get a pearl necklace.
Or go to your mother and see if she has any jewelry that she would donate and that you could have remade into an engagement ring.
My mother passed away four years before I got engaged. My sister inherited her large jewelry selection, but honoured my mother's request that my brother and I be able to pick out a ring for our future spouses.
...not even close. Less than 100 years old. It might have meant something - for awhile - as one other poster pointed out; being a safety measure for an engaged woman to have something left even if the man backed out, but now it's all marketing and monopoly tactics.
... If she is, then for the equivalent price of the ring, give her the most bitchin' state-of-the-art piece of computer hardware you can get your hands on.
It'll have to be a laptop, of course, with gigahertz and gigabytes out the wazoo, more pixels and colors then there are Chinese, and more gadgets hooked in then you can fit into the room.
You'll have to install her favorite distro, of course, and lay out the desktops and workspaces just the way she likes it, all of this before she sits down the first time. And get the MP3 playlists set up so the she finds everything she's looking for in no more than two clicks.
But if she's not a geek, well, hm, then I guess you better go get the diamond.
Always keep a sapphire in your mind
Here goes the karma (and not in that joking 'haha, I'm just saying that to get upmodded'. Read on. You'll be lucky if this comment doesn't go to minus infinity)
Do you drive to work? Do you recycle? Are you a vegan? Every thing you do is going to piss someone off or hurt them. What's with this terrorism bullshit? The last time you bought a dime bag, did you consider that 99% of the cost of it went to terrorism?
Haven't seen it in the 3+ comments, so here goes:
Western nations have been trying for decades to bring some semblance of civilization to Africa. It ain't working. No matter what you do, someone is going to be getting over on someone in some rather heinous ways. The only thing keeping Egypt from a similar situation is the influence of Islam. (It's what eliminated MUCH of the fighting in the middle east as well. That it helped stir up more is not the point).
See, contrary to popular belief, it wasn't necessary for the white man to go very far inland to get slaves. One tribe bonks another and sells off the slaves they can't use.
For shits sake, large portions of the continent are still inhabited by those who commit female circumcision! Fuck 'em.
I have no idea why you assume you'll be screwed by a jeweler. Did you shop around? Get to know anybody? Or were you just a sanctimonious prick boohooing about the poor miners? Hit any estate sales? Pawn shops? There's plenty of places to get a ring.
But I've got a better idea. Just buy her something cheap. Unless she's a total pig, she'll get tired of you and divorce you in a year or so and find someone who has a pair. Or at least someone who will ask HER opinion on the subject.
Next on AskSlashdot: what type of toilet paper do you use? Do you wipe up or down? How does the roll face? Doesn't it bother you that ten trillion acres of virgin hardwood forest are clear cut every day so that you can wipe your ass?
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
But, if there's a problem, I don't think it's a hard problem. If you give her an engagement ring that has some meaning -- even if it's a little sappy -- that will be much better than a diamond. She won't be able to show off the size of her stone, but she will have a story to tell, and that's a lot better. A diamond is just a commodity, whose value is a complete illusion. I don't know what sort of racket appraisers are involved in, but they are obviously lying when they value the items.
Coming up with a meaningful ring is hard, though (of course, that's what makes it more valuable to your fiancee). Maybe there's something in your or her family's past. If there's no ring, maybe there's something else that could be set in a ring. Maybe there's some tradition -- ethnic or otherwise -- that could serve as the basis of a design. Even if it's a tradition that only goes back one generation, you have to start somewhere.
Get something custom made by a good metalsmith, and you'll have something with far greater sentimental value than a boring stone. It might not be cheaper -- but you'll be supporting an artist, and not a cartel. (Remember though that it may take a while to get that ring made)
Try this: buy some roses for her on any other day of the year. Not only will they be easier and cheaper to get, but I guarantee you she will be ten times happier with a spontaneous sign of affection. All you're really saying on Feb. 14 is "I got you these flowers because my television told me to." Any other day of the year, the message is "I was driving home from work when it hit me how much I love you, so I stopped off at the store and bought you some flowers."
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
This is what I got my wife. It is a bit more subtle, which means she has no problems wearing it all the time, even when doing minor work with horses, etc.
Platinum bands do not have a mounted stone that can catch on things or fall out. This is a bigger problem than you think.
Platinum is also a truly scarce resource, and its high price is reflected by an open market rather than an artificial scarcity using monopoly powers (DeBeers).
In short, a nice platinum comfort fit band works great.
... pay off her credit card / college loan / whatever.
Slashdot? Oh, I just read it for the articles.
first, diamonds are the most controlled substance available to consumers. They literally laid scattered across river banks and beaches in Africa, uncut obviously.
If you want to get her a rare gem, try an emerald, 19 times more rarer then diamonds.
If you don't get her a diamond, her girlfriends won't be impressed, and talk about her as if she is getting ripped off. You prbably won't come close to pleasing her mom. now that might not matter to you, but it will for your next marriage.
She may not even want diamonds, but women in American society have a lot of pressure to meet certian standards, getting married, having children and getting a diamond ring.
speaking of rings,don't get titanium. most men gain some wait after a few years, and it will be a bitch to cut off.
personally, I went with white gold, but then I got leperosy, my wife left me, and I started having the damndest halucinations....
Hey, I hope the best for you,and the future wife.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
If you're anywhere near New York, go down to 47th street (between 5th and 6th avenues), and scour the diamond exchanges. Skip the obnoxious folks who try to force stuff into your hand and look at the smaller booths with art-deco and 30s/40s rings. You'll see more beautiful antique rings in one place than you'll find in all the antique stores in most cities.
Incidentally, I'm going to plug this guy because he was really good to us when we were shopping (no, I don't get a kickback from him.) The site gives you an idea of what I'm talking about.
My wife and I were married without any particularly formal engagement. Why bother with the formalism -- it's most just irritating anyway. Just pick a date and get married then. Simplest thing in the world.
/* be engaged (short engagement for demonstration purposes) */
/* get married */
It's just about flipping the 'marriage' bit. No need for a thousand dollars of comments. Just
{
sleep(1000);
marriage=1;
}
I wouldn't pay more than $300 for those comments, and I wouldn't use code with more commentary than that. Keep it simple. Marriage ain't rocket (or even computer) science.
--G
Very, very poor timing on this Ask Slashdot. If I'm going to pledge two months' salary to buy ANYTHING today, it'll be a new Power Mac!
Why? Because a computer won't screw my two [alleged, and now-ex] best friends behind my back, like my last girlfriend did a few years ago. If I've learned anything from my dating experiences, it's that to trust people is to set yourself up for disappointment. I'd rather spend the money on a machine-- they're much more reliable.
~Philly
How is this offtopic? Please - someone with some moderator points and a decent sense of humor click on the link for the picture (it's http://pics.steakandcheese.com/debeers.jpg) - and mod the above up - I don't care about the karma - but would really think a lotta people would find it amusing - and isn't that what moderators are for?
S.t.e.v.e.
Why do we buy diamonds? Is it because they're really pretty? Yes, but if that were the case we'd buy cubic zirconium rings; you can't tell the difference 5 feet away anyway. Is it because we're conditioned to buy them? Partially, though, like everyone has said, it's mostly a marketing gimmick crated in the 40s.
:) That way you won't come off as a cheapskate.
So why DO we buy diamonds? Because they're expensive. DeBeers knows this, that's why diamonds are so expensive. Jewelers know this, that's why they won't buy them back. If diamonds weren't so expensive, nobody would buy them. Because it's rather impractical to buy our beloved a 2 lb hunk of gold, we instead spend the money on a rock with artificial value, as if to say "I care about you so much, I just threw away 2 months salary. Will you be with me for the rest of my life (or until we hate eachother)?"
The moral of the story: Yes, diamonds are probably a bad choice. But it's not what you buy, it's how much you spent on it. If you don't want to buy her a diamond, that's perfectly fine; just find a diamond ring in the price range you're looking at and spend the same amount on say, a platinum band with other precious stones (rubies, emeralds, sapphires, whatever she prefers.) Her girlfriends won't chide her so long as it looks expensive (and it will.) Just make sure to spend a lot of money on it, whatever it is.
For those that need to cut and past - this is why diamonds are worth it guys! http://pics.steakandcheese.com/debeers.jpg
S.t.e.v.e.
I was lucky. I married someone for whom funky stuff like integrity, thought, consideration, selflessness, originality were priorities. To her, the traditional goal of "it must be so big I can't lift my hand" was tacky, ostentatious, gaudy, all the hallmarks of a wannabe who needed validation from outside, rather than someone looking for something that had significance simply for what it was.
The end result for us was a third of a carat rub over setting on a really unique band. For her, it's perfect as it comes across as stylish, vastly more sophisticated and, her highest priority, she doesn't spend the rest of her life being scared of knocking a large rock out of a cheap setting.
I still managed to spend a fair bit of money, but that was on: getting it engraved (without her knowing) on the inside; on getting it rush ordered so I could still suprise her, even though we'd chosen it together; on finding the perfect time and place to do the proposing; on getting matching earings made to go with it. Those are all the subtle things that allowed me to put vastly more value in to it for her without buying in to a deliberate, tacky, hype.
So, like I said, it depends a lot on who you're marrying. If the biggest, gaudiest rock is simply the only way to feel she's valued, that's what you should get her - you chose that type of person. If style and the suble touches are what're important, congratulations, you've found someone who's going to appreciate everything you do for her, regardless of how well off you are at the time. That is the kind of woman I wanted to marry. :)
OK, now lets get back to bitching about Microsoft. This is getting sappy!
> And they're traditionally considered bad luck for romantic purposes because of their changeability
If that had any truth to it, ANY romantic relationship with a female is doomed. *shrug*
"Diamonds. She'll Pretty Much Have To."
~Philly
some woman-think here, for the record: a friend at work just got married, and gosh her diamond is purty. honestly, sometimes i catch myself staring at it. but i'm not her, and someone please shoot me if i ever become so. she prances around like a poodle fresh from the salon now, as if she has suddenly become valuable as a person. don't buy into it. if two people are equally saturated with the propaganda, they should get along just fine. but if she is set on a ring and you are ethically against it (cheap is entirely another story), i'd say you two have bigger issues to deal with than just a diamond. i have as many unnecessary purses as the next girl, but i personally would run the other direction from a guy who presented me with a rock, because i want a partner, not a sheep. why on earth would i want the same ubiquitous, essentially unvaluable thing every other woman has? howabout a secret gift (and an exchange, no less!), just between the two of you? who is she getting married for anyway, her friends?
Family heirloom. Even before my wife and I got engaged, she told me she wanted a ring that had belonged to her great-grandfather's first wife who died in a pneumonia epidemic in 1908 or something. It's an absolutely beautifully detailed platinum ring with lots of filligree, etching and cutouts and a 1+ ct diamond. Appraisers have put in in the USD 6-8K range but I've also had jewelers tell us they couldn't make it themselves for less than $10K.
Smoke one if you've got one. If not, estate sales are a good way to go.
There's one thing computing teaches you, and that's that there's no point to remembering everything.
--Doug Copland
I went through the exact same conundrum about 6 months ago. I hate the idea of spending that much money on something so meaningless as a diamond as much as my fellow geek and share a similar distaste for the idea that De Beers has successfully forced a large part of the worlds population to act like mindless sheep based on their marketing tactics.
However, the bottomline was that there was no getting away from it. In general, girls want to receive diamond rings from their fiance-suitors for the following reasons:
1. They can use the diamond to show off to other girls. Women like to brag about how much their fiances love them and diamonds are somehow a sign of that. The prettier and bigger the diamond, the more they have to brag about.
2. They see it as a sign of how much you are interested in them. How much money would you be willing to spend on them is how they guage that and unfortunately the diamond is one of the measures they use for that.
3. Diamonds are pretty and they like them for that reason.
4. It's "tradition". Their dreams of prince charming have always included a nice diamond and if you hope to be that prince, you better play the part with the diamond.
I caved and split for the cash.
Let me warn you, however. The diamond is not the end of it. It's only the beginning. I figured I'd spend a load of cash on the diamond and that would be the end of that. Almost from the minute you get engaged, starts the big wedding planning ritual. Thanks to mass-brainwashing by media, their mothers and their friends, women seem to believe that it is very important to have a big, pretty wedding that everyone and their aunt is invited to.
Somehow, they place it at a higher priority than, say getting the down payment on a house. And then there are the magazines. There is a whole industry around wedding magazines, wedding stores and wedding supplies. It's a finely honed marketing machine which has one objective: Get as much money out of you by
Mmmm.. Donuts
Probable response:
"Child warriors? Smugglers? Musky dark dusty mines? Sounds sooooo exotic and romantic, darling. Can't wait to get one!"
Table-ized A.I.
If you take the two to 8 grand that some of my friends paid for rings and put it towards their houses instead the would have been much better off in the long run. How much? something like $50,000 or so at the end of the home loan.
Platinum rings. White gold. Other gemstones. Nothing beats rubies or emeralds in my book.
:D]) that would be the way to go.
:D"
A friend of mine recently got married, and he and his wife have TITANIUM wedding rings. They're the lightest, shiniest, most beautiful rings I've ever seen. I was instantly jealous, and my GF agreed that if we ever got married (since we believe that marriage as an institution is only worthwhile for the legal benefits, really [oh, and the presents
Oh, and being a mountain biker, I thought, "Titanium makes pretty bikes, AND pretty rings. I wonder if I can get a Carbon Fibre Full Suspension ring. THEN I'd be hardcore.
How interesting that this subject comes up just a few days shy of my 15th wedding anniversary.
When Richie and I got engaged, it was back in the day when South Africa was ruled by the Apartheid regime and Nelson Mandela had been doing time for longer than I had been alive. I told him "no diamonds." We went to a local lapidary shop where they had many different options for stones and picked out a sterling silver setting for it. I chose a diamond-cut quartz crystal. It was beautiful, the ring didn't cost much at all, and after someone assembled it Richie proposed to me in front of everyone in the store. Got on one knee and everything. Priceless. Everyone applauded.
However, that ring was short lived. I don't remember exactly how I did it, but the ring's setting got bent and I lost the stone. It lasted only a few months.
Next, sometime around Christmas that year, there were several small jewelry carts that set up in the local mall. One had a ring with a great-looking amethyst point mounted on it. Not too expensive, looked cool. We grabbed it. The ring lasted for about a year before the amethyst point worked its way loose. I Krazy-glued it in and it stayed in for a few weeks more before I lost it for good.
Richie was upset, I was bummed. Two rings given, two down. I decided the next replacement for the engagement ring would not have a stone, tradition be damned.
That next summer I found a sterling silver Claddagh ring. Traditional Irish love token. Symbol from pre-Christian times. Very appropriate. Very cool. I've had it ever since.
Anyway, even with Apartheid over, I wouldn't touch diamonds if they were...well, diamonds. For one thing, I'm not crazy about them aesthetically. I'd rather have a blue topaz or a sapphire or a ruby or emerald or even better, a fire opal. For another thing, unless you can make darn sure where you are getting them from, you could get them from terrorists or Russian mafiosos or any number of other unsavory folks.
And most importantly...I would rather spend my money on geeky stuff. Save that money and get something I really want...like a DVD-RW or a Radeon AIW 8500 video card.
If your intended is a geek grrl, get her something she'll really want. If she isn't...well...maybe that diamond is kinda mandatory. Check up on the provenance of that rock...there are Canadian stones from the Yukon Territory strike that have a polar bear etched next to the laser-inscribed ID. There's nothing morally reprehensible about the Canadians, last time I checked.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
1) Pawn shop. You would be amazed at how many Diamonds are there. See the pawn shop FAQs for information on how to shop there.
2) Non-mall reputable dealer. There are a few of these around usually in some hole-in-the-wall shop. I bought my wife's diamond from one 6 years ago -- they had a 1-year money back warranty that they honored for a friend of mine without a problem, and were much less expensive than mall stores.
Whatever you do, buy a certified stone -- it's the only way to get an objective measure of the 4 C's which you can use to compare prices among jewelers.
Whatever you do, stay away fromt he stores in the mall. Their overhead is higher, due to rent and glitz, their return policies generally stink, and they often employ people who don't know what they're talking about.
We've been happily married for 12.5 years, so it worked out fine. She picked out the ring. Result: a nice ring for a couple of hundred instead of a few thousand. I would have been willing to spring for a diamond if it was really important to her, but it wasn't.
It worked out this way because we were already living together, were on grad student "salaries" and any money spent would be, in effect, our money not my money.
You can search online through many, many more diamonds than you would ever find in a jeweller, and the price is about 20% less for a comparable stone.
It was very surreal, clicking "Add to basket" for something that cost more than my first car...
One Dozen Roses: us$35.
One Diamond Ring: us$949.99.
Knowing You're A Pussy Whipped Man-Whore: Priceless.
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
Not to trivialize this or anything (I'm against buying diamonds too), but this makes me laugh. It seems like whenever Slashdotters don't want to pay for something (e.g. CDs), they find some kind of ethical reason why they shouldn't.
-a
How to rationalize theft.
If she really loved you she'd be happier with a FDDI ring...
My parents divorced almost 20 years ago (after 20 years of marriage), and my mother had kept her engagement ring in a box for those 20 years. When I told her I was getting engaged, she gave it to me and my fiance and I went and had it reset in a band that she liked.
Later we picked another stone and had my mom's band redone with it, everybody won in the end.
Except they're dead.
I completely agree. Who wants to date a girl to whom whether or not you're willing to waste a significant chunk of your net worth to prove it is a deal-breaker? Am I the only one who has noticed that the emperor has no clothes on?
;)
So... Ms. casualgeorge... what are you doing this weekend?
PUBLIC SPLIT ON WHETHER BUSH IS A DIVIDER -CNN scrolling banner, 10/15/2004
Did you read anything in the articles or comments? They do NOT appreciate. they lose LOTS of value, in real and inflated dollars.
i'm sure this is "-ten billion, redundant" but it really can't be emphasized enough
sic transit gloria mundi
I'd rather spend my money on a new AMD system for myself, and lots of Linux books. So I'll wrap up my unwillingness to spend money in a pile of self-righteous condemnation.
Run, sister. Not only do you have a cheap bastard as a fiance, but one who intends on making you feel guilty at the slightest provocation when money gets involved.
And before the response flood comes in, I'll bet dollars to donuts that if diamonds cost pennies per carat, he wouldn't care who gets the money. If that's the problem, buy Canadian diamonds, and shell out the cash.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
a friend at work just got married, and gosh her diamond is purty. honestly, sometimes i catch myself staring at it. but i'm not her, and someone please shoot me if i ever become so. she prances around like a poodle fresh from the salon now, as if she has suddenly become valuable as a person. don't buy into it. if two people are equally saturated with the propaganda, they should get along just fine. but if she is set on a ring and you are ethically against it (cheap is entirely another story), i'd say you two have bigger issues to deal with than just a diamond. i have as many unnecessary purses as the next girl, but i personally would run the other direction from a guy who presented me with a rock, because i want a partner, not a sheep. why on earth would i want the same ubiquitous, essentially unvaluable thing every other woman has? howabout a secret gift (and an exchange, no less!), just between the two of you? who is she getting married for anyway, her friends?
...but be very careful.
"History is always too slow, but it is never kind to those who would hurry it up." -The Power of One
PUBLIC SPLIT ON WHETHER BUSH IS A DIVIDER -CNN scrolling banner, 10/15/2004
This reminds me of a show I was watching on The Science Channel some time back. There is a team that mines for Diamonds in northern Canada (ice), and sells them as "Clean" diamonds. No child labor or any of the like -- they are real, pure diamonds, and you can sleep comfortably knowing where they came from.
I'm not sure where to find more information, but I'm sure that if you peek around a little bit, you'll find what I am talking about.
If I ever get engaged, this will be my solution. Resale value is the lesser issue IMO.
While we're at it, there's that computer you're using. Ever look at where the parts are made? Malaysian sweatshops. Wonder what happens to all those dangerous carcinogenic and mutagenic chemicals used in doping chips? Bet they don't have EPA regulators watching over them. How many third-world children suffer so you can have a computer?
Then there's the matter of your shoes. And your belt. Shall I tell you how the cow with the big brown eyes is led down the ramp into the slaugherhouse...
I'm being only a little fascetious here. The fact of the matter is that you can make an excellent case that monstrous things are done in order for us to buy cheap computers, flashy diamonds, or Florsheims. And it's also easy to find countries begging to be exploited - they call it "jobs" and "hard currency" and "investment." And you know, both points of view are absolutely right.
If your beloved likes diamonds, get her one. Get her a small one surmounted with a couple smaller emeralds or rubies or sapphires. Or get her a big honkin' rock with a massive inclusion and a faint yellow cast - nobody will ever screw a loupe into their eye to examine it. I'll guarantee that the jeweler will give you an appraisal that says it's worth twice what you paid, so you're going to look like a high-roller no matter what.
You have to balance on the tippy-toes of one foot to stand on the moral high ground.
-- Bill
www.thaigem.com. They've got a great reputation, and you can get stones there for dirt cheap compared to elsewhere (loose, set, design your own, whatever). They'll also do custom settings if you email them a design, and the prices are great.
:)
Personally, as a woman, I find diamonds tacky on any female under 45. If I ever got engaged, I'd prefer something exotic, like a bi coloured tourmaline set in white gold... but that's me
It's worth checking into though, to see if she's flexible on it. There are so many beautiful gems out there that are just as nice as, and even nicer than, diamonds.
Tradition be damned.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo - H. G. Wells
I think you should follow the example of the Drew Carey Show. Get your fiancee a Diamondelle (r). They're very common, so they don't cost much. In fact, chances are that the window in the room you're in now is just a giant Diamondelle (r). He he he.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Of course, you run the serious risk of loosing all your cool point if she finds out where you obtained it...
Shouldn't honesty be the foundation of a good marriage? Or am I hopelessly out of date?
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
So the man has to sell out his principles to please his materialistic wife. Do his life-long resentments carry any weight at all?
How politically correct...you wouldn't want to offend the guerillas/monsters that kill and mame innocent families and use diamond sales to further their warped causes.
I toured a jewelery manufacturing plant a couple years back and interviewed the head of the company. At least in the US, these diamonds were a major concern for the US jewelry industry...so much that the stores were making the suppliers sign pledges to the effect that they would never buy such diamonds.
The industry term is "BLOOD DIAMONDS" and I think we should refer to them as such in this discuss so as to not minimize or trivialize the effect they are having on the poor people in the regions in which they are found. Repeat after me...
"They are blood diamonds."
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
Apparently not only never had a girlfriend, but also never seen a diamond. Ugly rock? Them's some strange aesthetic sensibilities.
Regardless of everything you may have to say about the diamond industry, diamonds themselves aren't really to blame, and a pure cut diamond is one of the most amazing natural objects you'll ever see. These things get dug out of the fricking ground, damnit - they're the hardest material in existence, a pure sample of the basic chemical element that makes up life on this planet, and they shine like nothing you've ever seen.
If you're choosing a symbol to represent unending love, there's not a lot wrong with choosing a life-giving, pure element, aside from the lack of originality, but why does everything you do have to be original?
Frankly, if you're looking to buy a ring, all the best looking ones have a big diamond in the middle. If you're worried about ethics, make sure you buy from a jeweller who shares your concerns - and they do exist. Choose a craftsman whose work you like. A good ring is a work of art, one your wife will wear for the rest of her life. That's gotta be worth a few bucks.
You'd have to be living under a rock to not have known all that by now.
Here's another clue. Mother's day, Fathers day, Valentines day, most of what we think of as Christmas are also all department store and card shop fabrications.
So anyway. I was also a little POed that the woman got this great gift and the man gets nothing, so my wife and I agreed to buy each other engagement rings. We got some nice dark opal rings that can be used as dress wear any time. MOST opal production has local benefits to the miners and local opal towns themselves.
Contrary to popular belief, coding is not all free blow-jobs and beer. Those things cost MONEY!
I bought my wife a antique diamond ring. As you suggest, there is
very little resale value for second-hand diamonds - so they are cheap.
On the other hand, *you* may look cheap if you arrive on bended knee
with a modern second hand ring.
The answer is to seek out an antique ring - the Victorian ring I settled
on was about the same price as a new, modern ring - but MUCH nicer than
anything you could get off-the-shelf - probably fairly unique too.
It's pretty scandalous how the diamond industry has hyped these rather
common rocks though. In a rational world we'd treasure more important
things.
www.sjbaker.org
"make sure you buy from a jeweller who shares your concerns - and they do exist."
Jewelers who get their wholesale diamonds from a source other than DeBeers... exist? Cite please.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
First, get a Certified Canadian Diamond. They are harder to find, but these diamonds are mined in Canada (which has massive diamond deposits) where labor laws are more humane. Its nearly impossible to find a Canadian diamond unless you go near the source or you have a jeweler that you trust.
Second, although they don't have Canadian diamonds (that I know of) the Shane Co. (California, Oregon, elsewhere?) will give you terrific trade-in values on other purchases for dimonds that you buy from them.
"Honey, some loveless geek on Slashdot told me not to get you a diamond. So, really, it's not my fault, ok?"
"BTW, I re-partioned your PC, got rid of Windows, and set you up with free BSD and a Tesla coil."
"Honey? Honey?"
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
Some personal perspective on the issue:
That isn't very many data points, but I think the lesson is that if the ring selection is more of a personal investment than a shopping effort, it's a good sign. Sure, the ring should have some durable value, but anyone who says only diamonds have value as a symbol of love needs to ponder on the primary practical use of diamonds: an abrasive.
Jon
I think not...(*poof*)
According to the sources I've read and my old geology prof, who was a very cool guy, a good sapphire is much rarer than even the rarest diamond. I always preferred the colour anyway. :)
Liz
it's a myth. unfortuantely i am on my way out the door and don't have the time to find the proof, but it's true. i think it's something like 12 or 14 percent of our oil comes from that region. granted that's still a lot of oil, but nothing like the 90% that joe 6-pack american seems to think.
out of those countries we get oil from i do not know how many may be considered shady today. the enemy seems to change every few years. whatever your political views are, the only real constant pal the United States seems to have over there is Isreal and they are lacking the oil reserves that would keep the USA stocked happy. it seems like everyone else manages to upset us one time or another (or they were also too friendly with the USSR and therefore no longer our friend) argh.
ride a bike, it solves more problems than you would ever know.
I may blow some /. karma by saying this, but that Atlantic article is one of the best pieces I've seen linked from /. in quite a while. It has nothing to do with tech or software and can't really be called news for nerds, but it's an eye-opener about how businesses manipulate public perception out there in the real world. If you skipped the article and went straight to the comments like I did, it's worth going back to read the article.
If you think diamonds are forever, you're going to love the new One Ring model at Sauron's Jewelers (with 1 convenient locataion in the Barad-dur shopping mall, located right in the shadow of Mount Doom).
This ring is guaranteed to last for all eternity, and will grant countless powers as well as being a pledge of your ever lasting and eternal love. When my grandfather first forged this ring in ages past, he made it to last, and it has certainly stood the test of time. What better way of telling that special someone "This is going to last forever?"
Supplies are EXTREMELY limited, so hurry on in, or email DarkLord@mordor.org for this and other wonderful items.
What are diamonds, but hyper-compressed carbon? Scientists are now able to synthesize diamonds in labs. Mind you, I have no idea how that works, if it's practical to get one of those, if the cost's insane; but if not, why not?
:D
If that doesn't work, you could always just find a reasonably-sized/priced diamond, then buy an equivalent price amount of other stones; say, rubies, sapphires, emeralds, one of each, exactly which doesn't matter. Probably, the amount you would have spent on a diamond ring will allow you to get a ruby ring, bracelet, necklace, and earrings; of course, I'm talking out of my ass seeing that I've never bought gems and won't anytime soon, but last I checked diamonds were far more expensive than anything else.
Course, if you're really lucky, your girlfriend will like silver and stone-other-than-diamond better in the first place, based on looks alone.
Yeah-- it is a really beautiful stone-- and Tzavorite too... The only trouble is no one has heard of them. So a ruby, sapphire, or emerald may be better for an engagement ring.
Anyway, other little-known but beautiful stones are:
1: Red spinel (many crown rubies turned out to be these)
2: Tourmaline (Many different colors-- look for Rose of France, a beautiful pink tourmaline).
3: Alexandrite (changes color in artificial light)
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
if she wants one your ethics have no place.. she gets it or your aint getting her =]
You know it's kinda hard to tell a really really good CZ from a diamond, unless you are a jeweler and put it under a microscope. I think some CZ's respond to ultraviolet light, but only slightly so that people can tell the difference. But will she really know?...
Tibbon
tibbon.com
My wife has chosen Moissanite due to a very bad experience with a local mall-jeweler. The certified diamond she bought was enclosed with a "certificate" that, upon checking with IGI was found to be fraudulent. She got her money back only after some stressful discussions with the store. We then saw an article in the Washington Post discussing a "new diamond simulate" by Charles and Colvard. It has all of the same properties as a diamond but is actually more brilliant. The best news is that it is being sold at a fraction of the cost of a good diamond. Since it looks as good and lasts as long, and you understand the political problems with diamonds, including the artificially elevated prices, then Moissanite is a great alternative. Check out some tech details at www.4facets.com/news2000.htm
Barry
This wasn't written by me; I copied it off of the somethingawful.com forums.
... because your brother just got engaged, and that ring he gave her was pretty impressive... ... and I'm worried that anything I could give you wouldn't measure up to that. ... and you're 33 now, that's $6000 divided by 47 years of marriage. That's like, $130 a year. You spend more than that on video games.
Actual conversation between me and my girlfriend:
Me: If we get engaged, don't expect much in the way of a ring. I'm pretty broke.
Her: It's OK. I don't need a very expensive ring.
Me [uneasy at the qualifier "very"]:
Her: Yes, it was beautiful! I'd love to have a ring like that!
Me:
Her: Don't be silly. I wouldn't want more than you could afford.
Me: Define "afford."
Her: Two months' salary is normal.
Me [calculating]: Um... wow. That would be, like, $4000. That's a lot.
Her: Gross, dear, not net. It would be more like $6000.
Me: Who makes up these rules?
Her: That's just the custom, honey.
Me: You know that's just a marketing gimmick started by the diamond cartels around the turn of the century, don't you?
Her: Silly. I don't need an expensive ring.
Me: The conversation up to this point notwithstanding?
Her: Two months' salary is normal. It's not expensive.
Me: So if you found, say, $6000 worth of computer hardware on our joint credit card, I could say "Hey, that's not expensive; it's just what computers cost!"
Her: That's different. That would be just for you. The ring is for both of us.
Me: So I get to wear this ring part of the time?
Her: Silly. The ring shows everyone how much you love me.
Me: And what shows everyone how much you love me?
Her: The ring.
Me: Do you see a certain asymmetry in this arrangement?
Her: You should be proud that everyone sees me wearing your ring. It tells the world how much you value me.
Me: Approximately $6000 worth, apparently. Does this mean that rich men value their wives more than poor men?
Her: No. It's two months' salary for everyone.
Me: Ah, so wives are priced on a sliding scale, then, like low-income housing?
Her: I wouldn't put it that way.
Me: How would you put it?
Her: A little money is a small price to pay for something that lasts forever.
Me: You lifted that directly from a jewelery commercial.
Her: That doesn't make it untrue.
Me: Touché.
Her: Look, if you live to be 80...
Me: I don't like that "if."
Her [ignoring me]:
Me: I'm alarmed at how quickly you arrived at that number.
Her [ignoring me]: $130 a year isn't so much for my love, is it?
Me: Well, it's a good deal cheaper than escort services.... OW! OW! Quit hitting; I'm driving here!
Her: You get a lot more from this relationship than sex.
Me: Yeah, the contusions make it all worthwhile.
Her: Baby.
Me: Y'know, this actually works out better for you if I die early. Your yearly value increases inversely to the length of my life. If I only live to 50....
Her: I'm tired of talking about this.
Me: That's because you're losing.
Her: I'm not losing. We're not competing. You told me you couldn't afford an expensive ring, and I said that was OK.
Me: Ah, so it's the "affording" part that's irrelevant.
Her: Stop being so silly. I've bought jewelry on credit before; it's no big deal.
Me: That's the solution!
Her: What is?
Me: You buy the ring.
Her: That's not how it works, honey.
Me: If people look at the ring to see how much I love you, wouldn't it make sense to get the most expensive ring available? You've got better credit than me, so....
Her: But the point is for you to buy it, so people can see how much you value me.
Me: How are people going to know who bought it? Do the salespeople engrave the credit card holder's name on the band?
Her: I'll know.
Me: Well, yes, that's a given.
Her: I'll know you didn't want to pay for my ring.
Me: I thought we'd established that.
Her: I'm tired of talking about this. Forget it.
Me: I'm trying to understand, really. We're supposed to have a token of our love, right?
Her: Whatever. Right.
Me: This token is something you would want anyway, a piece of jewelry.
Her: Honey...
Me: Bear with me. The token is sized for you, presumably styled the way I think you'd like it...
Her: Actually, I get to pick it out.
Me: Even better for my purposes. So the token is styled just for you, sized so only you can wear it. You keep it with you always. Do we both own it?
Her: No, the bride owns the ring always.
Me: OK. So you get a ring that may or may not be expensive, depending on your definition, which is your exclusive property to do with as you please. I get to pay for it. Remember what I said about asymmetry?
Her: So you want a ring?
Me: No. To be symmetrical, it would have to be something I want. A laptop, for instance.
Her: You want an engagement laptop?
Me: That's just an example.
Her: That's not parallel. Computers depreciate; good jewelry doesn't.
Me: Good point. I guess there's no such thing as a ring upgrade.
Her: Actually, they make these things called "sleeves" which you buy for major anniversaries....
Me: Dude, I'm gettin' a Dell!
What I did.
Got married, used her mom's ring that had a chip on it, the setting was bigger than the diamond.
I got a band that cost $70.
We stayed together. On our 5th anniversary we each got each other the bands. She screwed up (I don't like yellow gold, white gold or platinum, she got me yellow gold), but I got her what she wanted. Platinum band, three stone diamond.
She is happy. I'm out a chunk of change, but I'll live.
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
Want a palladium ring? Here is a really neat looking palladium ring. Only $30.95 on ebay. It's vintage from WW2.
Tips and Tricks for Mozilla
It's a matter of perceived value, since imagine what a non-techie would say when we pay 100 bucks for a piece of silicon, "it's just sand!!!".
However to us it is not just sand, it represents computation, a way to research, play games, and surf the Internet.
Similarly, although I agree with the poster about the stupidity of the diamond tradition, I also must accept the fact that women give it a high emotional (and sometimes "bragging" and "proudness") value. Just as some men derive fun from finding out about the wonders of the latest sand-based microprocessor, so do many women derive pleassure from talking with their relatives and friends about their engagement and their diamond. A diamond to women is a symbol, sometimes of love, sometimes of money and power.
Bottom line, reality is what we perceive it to be, and if women give diamond a big value, then that is under all circunstances what it is worth.
but I can almost guarantee some diseased civil war ravaged 8 year old with one leg, didn't pick those flowers.
Any gem of value is going to create the same kinds of situations which is making you lean away from diamonds. If she really wants one get her one. If you want to avoid feeling bad about supporting the cartels and the slavery then consider another market. Check with your family, grandparents would be great, to see if they have a ring or a stone you can use. I would think your fiance would really appreciate a family heirloom. Even if you end up with just a stone you can have it mounted in a new ring, perhaps even one you and she design yourselves. Find a local jeweler, not a huge chain in a mall, and you'll save some money even if you do buy something totally new.
'Same speed C but faster'
If you care about this issue, one way or the other, I suggest contacting Rep. Royce (above) or Susan E. Rice, Assistant Secretary for African Affairs (sorry - bio only - no contact info on that page) and let them know. I know that most people today tend to be cynical, the truth is that politicians do indeed listen to the people they represent - they have relections to worry about, if nothing else. That's how democracy works.
P.S. If you're going to D.C., make a point of visiting your representative and senator, even if only for the photo op. Their offices regularly get access and tours for constituents that travel to D.C. Also, the officials really do enjoy meeting with the people they represent. They don't get into that line of work unless they love pressing the flesh and meeting new people.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
If they have no resale value, they you could buy a used diamond very cheaply and get a jeweler to put it in a new setting for you, and that would kill the market for new diamonds. They don't wear out, of course. "Diamonds are forever" and all that.
The used diamond market isn't like the used car market, where the resale value drops as soon as you drive your shiny new Mustang off the lot. That is, it's not that market prices are low -- it's that there is no market. Because De Beers has created the impression that diamonds are priceless (if not in monetary value, then in sentimental value), almost no one sells their used diamonds. And because no one sells them, no one expects to buy them either. This has completely eliminated the secondary market for diamonds -- outside of shady outfits like pawn shops, which can hardly be considered bastions of "fair market value".
The total lack of liquidity in the used diamond market means that De Beers can continue to have complete control over prices. Why is stifling liquidity just as important as stifling competition? Look at what happened to hardware companies like Cisco when the Internet bubble burst. As if it weren't bad enough that Cisco lost customers, they found that prospective customers were buying cheap, lightly used hardware off the dot-bombs at fire sale prices instead of from Cisco. This is even more important for De Beers, since a diamond has a considerably longer usable life than a router. The moral of the story: if you want to sell your product to everyone at ridiculous prices, without screwing yourself in the future by saturating the market with resalable goods, then do exactly what De Beers has done.
Cheers,
IT
Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.
hehehe....
Code her a 20 minute long Marrige Demo (64K is the best of course), that proposes to her. Have wedding music (after a smooth rendition of your 'song') in the background, with awesome 3d graphics. Perhaps not all girls would appreciate that, but if you did it from scratch, then it would be a nice effort.
That being said, I don't know how my girlfriend would take that... probably ask if I got the lame idea from Taco or something...
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Why do all these diamond sites have flash movies instead of web pages? I need information, not cheap entertainment.
funny munging
Buy one in Jamaica, they are about 1/2 the price there.
Buy the diamond. Ethics shmethics...when your fiancee's friends see you didn't buy her a diamond you can be certain you won't be getting any for a very long time. Take my word for it. I am engaged and my fiancee told me she didn't want a big diamond...but I bought a big one anyway...and you know what? I've never heard her (or her friends) say anything negative about it.
And oh yes, I got some that night.
-ted
I have no doubt that within the next 30 years, you will be able to buy a flawless diamond the size of your head for about the same cost as a lump of coal. The techniques for synthesizing such diamonds would probably be there today if it weren't for the constant efforts of the DeBeers cartel to shut down all research on those fronts. But you can only slow down progress for so long, the state-of-the art is getting better (and cheaper) every day.
Don't believe it? It's happened before. Aluminum used to be a rare and exotic metal, until we discovered better extraction techniques. The top of the Washington Monument was supposed to be made out of aluminum, until it was stolen because the cost of aluminum was about equal to the price of silver! Of course now we throw alumnium cans away when we can't find a recycling bin.
The point is, of course, not that you shouldn't buy a diamond, it's just that you shouldn't expect its value (or rarity, or symbolism of your love, or "specialness", or whatever) to be lasting when we're probably going to be able to crank out diamonds for the same cost as class beads. Buy a small diamond for its (current but temporary) symbolic value, if anything.
You'd talk to more women! :)
Best goddamn midget porn in town! [fuckporn.net]
But don't sacrifice meaning of the engagement ring in the process. Make sure that that makes it even more special.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
All women want to know that their man will go to great lengths for them. Since fire-breathing dragons are on the endangered species list, and most of us want to keep our ears attached to our heads, too many of women are convinced that we can only do this by forking over ungodly sums for rings that look like everyone elses.
... white gold with stars on one side and sort of a turbulent void theme on the other). Total cost: $450 nine years ago.
Do what I did. Tell her you'll happily buy her whatever stone she wants, but that you think it would be cool to design your own rings. Sit down together, sketch out some ideas, take them to a local custom jewelry maker (your burg has at least a couple). Get his opinions on metal and stones, pay him to make a few sketches. Don't do this to be cheap; do this to create something unique you'll both like.
In our case, we ended up making three rings that stood on their own but fit together conceptually; earth (her wedding), sky (her engangement, with an amethyst for the sun), space (my wedding
My wife has never had anyone comment on her lack of diamond; they are usually too taken with the distinctiveness of the rings and the story of their creation.
Two final words of advice:
First, don't have your ring sized in the hot, sweaty days of August. Mine was so hard getting off, I asked the jeweler to enlarge it slightly. By the time December rolled around, the thing was flying off my hand ever time I turned around.
Second, think twice about the ceremony if your wife wants an inscription that starts "One ring to rule him..."
Ok, this may sound a bit odd (some would say queer, but...) I think a Marrige Quilt would be a great idea, if you know which end of a needle is the business end...
./ so basically you are giving her your time ./ing).
It would take alot of time, and thinking, and wouldn't be a 'money' thing, and it's something she can give her daughter some day.
Just make a quilt that has scenes that you needlepointed onto some of the squares about the years (hopefully years...) that you have spent together, leaving some blank, and one that's already titled "wedding".
It wouldn't be a terrible idea to get a small ring (I would just go with a Platitum one with a CZ or Saphire, but that's just me) and put in a small pocket for her to find, because her girlfriends will hate you if you don't get a ring at all (plus on the right finger it fends off other guys).
If you did the whole thing in secret (perhaps getting her mother or grandmother to help you; she would think it's sweet esp if it was her grandmother). You could even depicte it as a tree, with each of you as the root separate (with scenes of each of your earlier lives), and then together for a tree, and your relationship spreading out together...
Best of all, if you left the back side of it usable, then you could start a family tree (if you are going to have kids), that has her parents (she will love that), and you two at the bottom, and starts spreading out in squares with room for names, and other needle points.
Now this being said, I think that you would have to really learn a few things to do this, however- her, her mother, her aunts, and grandmothers would love you for this. And she would really like it that you learned something for her, instead of just plunking down 2 months pay (which to get you act like you work all day, when really reading
Good luck (I might try this one my girlfriend in some way, better start now... ) But really, if you are serious, this also gives you time to think over it, to make sure that you want it to be her, you can charge a Diamond in a minute at the store, but you can't make this instant.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Just be happy that you are human and can spend money on something that's disposable and generally not harmful to your health. Other animals have to carry around their showy but wasteful investments--you might have to run around with antlers or other useless appendages. Yet others need to engage in dangerous combats (still popular with some backwards humans) in order to win the favors of a female.
Since today a girl's viginity is just about worthless (in terms of dollars) and it's nowhere near as difficult to get married as a non-virgin. Just a thought.
They are not only fragile, but over time they absorb moisture from the air/surroundings and lose their sparkle. And as you said, they are prone to breakage because they are very soft. Any gemstone would be a better choice than an opal.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
You are right-- it is the wrong question, but I don't think you are asking the right one either.
My advice-- don't focus on what you don't want to do. Let it rest for a while and stop worrying. Then focus on what you will do. Make sure that whatever the ring you give her is, that is is a worthy monument to your love.
In my mind the real question is-- how to immortalize your that moment. Forget all this "Buy a diamond" or "How could you buy a diamond" stuff and focus on what really matters. If after consideration you realize that it won't be the same without a diamond, then decide if it is worth buying a diamond. Otherwise use something else but make it special.
BTW, about this "it's what people expect" argument, don't buy that one either. People are not so disappointed with the unusual, just make sure it is magnificent. If you break people's expectations but get around the "that's a cop-out" arguments, then you will probably *impress* rather than disappoint.
But if you are that worried, you might want to get a diamond. But it is your life, your love, and your concience. And it is up to you to make that choice.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
IF she is willing, why not try something like this or this but in a women's style and size of course. Titanium seems fitting to me because it is so strong and tarnish/corrosion resistant, as one wants their love to be.
I have not purchased anything from these vendors, so I can't endorse them specifically. We were pretty "traditional" when we got married, in that I spent an irrational amount of money and bought her one big ring with a large center diamond and several smaller ones that served as both her wedding and engagement ring. To date, other than the house which the bank owns anyways, her ring is the most valuable thing that we own, at least in replacement cost. For an anniversarry present though, I think I will get us matching titanium rings.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
Assuming you have already talked to her and explained to her how you feel and why and she understands then I would take her out and show her some nice Saphire rings, they were the traditional engagement ring until DeBeers got into the picture. And You can get a nice sized Saphire for the cost of a medium sized Diamond. And everyone will notice, cause she will have a good sized blue rock on her hand. If she isn't cool with it for the reasons you described dump her cause she is unreasonable.
My wife actually isn't a big diamon fan (for the social political reasons and the fact that colorless stones are kinda boring), she acutally hinted that she would prefer something other then a diamond, so I got her a nice saphire/platinium/with a couple small diamond bagettes on the side. Probaby the same cost as a single stone gold/diamond combo but I think it is money better spent and my wife loved it.
stretch marks from pregnancy - now THAT lasts forever! :)
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I agree. For a lot of women, they've wanted and dreamed of a nice engagement ring since they were kids. Getting that diamond ring is a sort of validation for some women.
Is this misplaced desire, partly formed by marketing hype and peer pressure? Yes. But so is my lust for say, a new BMW 5-series, or even the latest 2.6 GHz Pentium.
I spent a bunch on my wife's rock, which felt to me like 'wasted' money, but I have to say it's made her happy. Before you say she's all about the money though... she really isn't very materialistic at all, but getting that nice diamond really meant something to her. When the time came to spend money of other things, such as our wedding plans, or even when I ask her what she wants for a birthday gift, she is quite economical.
Beyond that, though, I also guess that over the course of our marriage, I'll probably spend ten times more on computer upgrades and other "toys" for myself (that she could care less about) as I will on jewelry for her (that I could care less about), so I guess I can't really complain! Probably it'd be the same for many other people here...I think that's something most of the techno-geeks here should keep in mind.
Unless, of course, she really, really wants an opal -- like my wife did.
Much cheaper than diamonds, too. Untill I was fool enough to educater her about Black Opal. God, that shit is expensive!
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
While she's chastized for getting a facial...
Ya know, I once knew a girl that actually MADE money that way. Muttered something about working her way through college...
Hey Taco! Looks like you're using the "infinite monkeys and typewriters" scheme to generate Ask Slashdots again...
You might try corundum (sapphire). They come in all sorts of neat colors (red=ruby, blue=sapphire). Bright green, yellow, hot pink, etc.
Diamond engagement rings are a recent (50 years or so) thing. Prior to that, garnets, rubys, and other stones were perfectly acceptable. You can buy a giant, beautiful corundum (though not ruby) for the price of a rather sad-looking diamond.
The other advantage of sapphire is that it's the second hardest gemstone (right behind diamonds). So it'll last her lifetime. Opals and emeralds are shitty stones to wear every day in a ring because they're soft and will disintegrate if whacked about too much.
Keep in mind you have to buy a larger carat size of sapphire than diamond because diamonds have a higher index of refraction so they can be cut thinner and show the same depth and sparkle.
My wife has had a nice yellow sapphire for a while since 6 months salary at the time would have been a wee chip of a diamond. People ask what it is and think it's great. It sparkles (though not as much as an expensive diamond) and is very unique.
Try poking around here; I haven't actually bought from them but they have nice gems and are highly rated as an Ebay seller. Most reputable places will let you order a bunch of stones and return the ones you didn't like.
Seriously, if you get your wife-to-be any kind of ring and she is disappointed, is she really the kind of woman you want to marry?
Hmmm, there are already over 500 comments, so I might not getting many eyeballs... but here goes anyway.
First of all, you've all heard how much you're supposed to spend on a ring. Well, guess what? That's just a figment of De Beers marketing that's some how become completely ingrained in society as the way it should. Very clever of them, eh? In the UK, it's one months salary, in N. America, two months, and in Japan 3 months (if I remember The Economist article from a few years ago correctly.)
My wife didn't actually like the idea of having two months worth of my salary on her finger... she was most comfortable with less than one month's (after taxes). Lucky me. Her ring is lovely to behold, yet it isn't impractically large, nor does it make her feel like she's going to be mugged everytime she goes anywhere.
I seriously looked around when I was buying. I even considered buying some from the Canadian shield area, mined by independent Canadian companies. They even had Polar Bears engraved on the "edge" of the diamond! These would have cost a couple of thousand more, but I would have felt a lot more ethical about it.
In the end, I went to a small independent goldsmith called John Brennan in Stratford Ontario. He was great! He made the ring to our design, and trotted back and forth to Toronto to get diamonds for use to choose from, and final appraisal, etc. I feel good that I supported the small local guy, and have some good memories to boot.
Another option that I considered, was going to a wholesaler of diamonds. This is much cheaper, but you really have to know what you're doing. I didn't feel that I could estimate the price of diamonds well enough to do this.
At the end of the day, there aren't many women who will be happy with something other than a diamond ring. Make sure you know how she feels, and *talk* to her about it. Don't try to convince her that your way is better, as it could come back to bite you later on. This is an exciting time for her (and you I hope), so don't piss on her parade too much. I know, it's a sad situation full of social pressures. You have to do your own thing, and what makes you both happy.
I think you have answered your own question. You are buying this gift for her to express your love. What matters is what she wants--your political sensitivities be damned.
Is the need for diamonds a manufactured demand? Yes. A few years ago, less than 5% of Japanese engagements involved rings. Today, after a concerted marketing effort by diamond companies, diamond rings are part of most engagements.
Manufactured desire or not, however, a diamond is what your girlfriend desires. Therefore a diamond is what you should buy her.
Actually, this is not true. First, diamonds do have resale value. More important, however, you can find jewelers who will take back the diamonds. I got the ring for my wife from such a jeweler.
I dunno, I've seen some pretty big returns off a suprise half dozen flowers and a nice dinner. And I don't mean returns in the way of inanimate objects.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
To echo some of the comments made here, buy used! You should have a REPUTABLE (and I do mean reputable) pawn shop in your area that sells diamonds and settings second hand. I purchased a beautiful 3 diamond ring in 18K white gold for my fiance for about $2500. It's value? About $4500. Also, this pawn shop guarantees an added 10% additional value per year if she ever wants to trade up (why would she? ;). I didn't put any additional drain on the "new" diamon market, helped out the local economy and... here's the kicker (I hope), HOPEFULLY I helped out in some roundabout way some geek who maybe got dumped by his wife-to-be. ;)
;)
Hey, who knows the history. I don't care. I bought my woman something that's pretty, not too extravagent and used. If your woman requires that her diamond be "new", remind her that they've been in the ground for who knows how many years already. Perhaps give her some printouts explaining how purchasing new diamonds is offensive to you for social and moral reasons.
Another final idea that's been posted here... ask a relative. Yeah, it's gauche, but tactfully talking to relatives might prove very beneficial. It might save YOU money while keeping an heirloom in the family. Needless to say, try to pick a good bride-to-be first so that the sentimental treasure isn't sullied by things like divorces.
Now the slashdot editors know what really ups the old hit counter.
From now on when things get slow we can expect articles such as:
1. What to do when she finds out it is zirconium.
2. O.K. I forgot her birthday what do I do now?
3. Ideas on how to say you love her for 20 bucks or less.
Unless you mean "is having a sparkly stone worth that money?". Don't ask silly questions.
Still, that said I bought my wife's ring through a brother of a friend who travels around the world collecting gems and who could negotiate directly with a wholesaler for me. It was like getting a $10 bill for $5.
-- SIGFPE
I bought my wife a diamond. She was a fiend, what could I do? Then 6 months later when I bough my computer I tried to hide the fact that it cost more than the diamond...
;)
Didn't want to fuel that whole "more time with the computer" thing you know
We got our rings at an estate jeweler, basically meaning they are all at least second hand. Not only were they super cheap, but being second hand don't have the full guilt of a new diamond.
-no broken link
Interestingly, the vast majority of gem grade diamonds never make it to market. They're warehoused to keep the cost of diamonds high. Otherwise, diamonds would be significantly cheaper than they are. This doesn't even include the tons of industrial grade diamonds that are stored in the former Soviet Union.
So, to answer your question. Are they worth (the price)? No. Does your girlfriend expect one? Probably, due to the massive marketing campaigns that you mentioned.
For more bang for the buck, look into colored gem stones. They are generally priced closer to what they are actually worth and, frankly, look nicer. Of course, the same ethical quandaries may apply.
* As is generally the case, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
...a 1:322 chance this post will be moderated. Let the dice roll.
"The lesson to be learned is not to take the comments on slashdot too literally." --Vinnie Falco, BearShare
oh, and taking over Hollywood
No, that's a Good Thing(tm).
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
That's why the whole flower thing equates so closely to the diamond discussion that started this thread. Flowers are bought on St. Valentine's Day because an expectation has been created.
Even so, I think that "here, I grew these for you" would be an even more romantic statement than either of the ones you mentioned.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Lucy in the sky with diamonds? :)
Trollem mirabilem hanc subnotationis exigiutas non caperet
Why yes, those mean old African positively forced slaves on the good ol' boys of the South. They wanted to stop, see, they never even wanted to start, but just like our fat friend suing the fast food industry, they were helpless!
My alternative will be stated in a moment, but first I want to give you a few things to think about.
1- Tradition is strongly rooted and if you search back far enough you will find 'True' time honored traditions of the heart.
2- Women love to feel unique. Currently most women accomplish this by getting the bigger diamond. Though there are other ways to separate them into a truely unique field of their own. Separating them entirely from everyone they know. And at an EXTREMELY low cost.
3- What is a time and time again statement from married women whose husbands go away with the boys. Or leave on business trips??? Will they take off their ring? What if you could absolutely prove to her you wouldn't?
4- Couple with #3, what if it was your true love that showed her you were true to her and would never stray?
Answer: A puzzle ring.
These rings consist of many bands, ranging from 4 bands, to as many as 8 (I've seen as many as 12, but they are rare.)
These bands come in gold, silver and many different designs. The makers of these rings can usually customize them and possible add diamond chips (for appeal) if you wish. The are inexpensive, in the area of $100 to $250 each for gold, and even cheaper if you choose silver. I'm sure they come in white gold also.
These rings have quite a history dating back (from what I found) to midevil times. The ring consisting of bands that interlock to form the ring. But remove the ring and the ring falls apart. The come with no instruction and are very difficult to reassemble. The more bands that you have, the more complicated it becomes.
When I suggested these to my girlfriend (prior proposal) she was overwhelmingly pleased that I would even suggest such a thing. That I would willingly want to put somethign on my hand that I couldn't take off in the heat of the moment or at a glance of a pretty woman coming my way., Though I reassure you, that I wouldn't anyway, I truely love her, but the extra notion of dedication was purifying to the occasion.
And as I said, ALL of her friend and co-workers are jealous, more over that their husbands wouldn't dare where that type of ring.
Wrong or right.. I made the correct choice.
Here is an example of the rings.. I simply seached E-bay, but I am sure there are other avenues to follow in order to purchase such rings. The sellers on e-bay often advertise that they custom make these ring.. and size and many styles.
Happy shopping and good luck with a life time of happiness to both of you!
Example at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item =949361336
Never try to beat a professional at his own game!
Yes, I'm one of those few mythic creatures, a ./ poster with no Y chromosome. Though I'm not that chick-identified, here's some advice from the girl point of view:
1. Even the most progressive feminist can sometimes be profoundly cliche'd when thinking about marriage. Our society teaches and reinforces strong ideas and imagery around weddings and marriage from a very early age -- heterosexual women are steeped in cultural tradition around marriage. It's hard to fight decades of "this is every girl's dream".
2. If she wants a diamond, get her a diamond. Don't make her spend the next 50 years of her life looking down at her hand and thinking, "Instead of a diamond ring, I got a symbol of his political and social stance."
3. If you don't want to support new diamond sales, consider estate jewelry. For a reasonable price, you can buy a ring that has a sense of history to it, that is a beautiful thing, and is less charged with the modern baggage. For that matter, an estate jewelry specialist can also help you make the choice. Talk to a pro! Explain you want something beautiful and unique, that you want to spend X dollars, etc.
4. If you decide not to go with the diamond, give your bride-to-be *positive* language around your choice. Don't get her a different kind of ring because you don't like the social ramifications of diamond mining -- get her a different kind of ring because you don't feel a run-of-the mill diamond ring accurately reflects the special and unique qualities in her and in your relationship.
5. Don't use not getting a diamond as an excuse to skimp on the cost. Buying a 300.00 ring instead of a 3000.00 ring 'because diamonds are tainted with the blood of workers' says you were looking for an excuse to be cheap. It's not about the money, but it's not just the thought that counts, either.
6. Size *does* matter, but it cuts both ways. Dicks *and* diamonds can both be tooooo big.
According to a friend's chemistry professor, diamonds are a rip-off anyway. The crystaline structure of the carbon atoms in diamonds isn't the most stable form of carbon. Apparently, diamonds aren't really "forever," they're only for a few billion years. Now graphite, on the other hand, now that's forever! (Or at least a lot closer!)
So buy her some pencil lead, and maybe one of those cool, high-dollar mechanical pencils to go with it!
(Disclaimer: I assume no responsibility for any bodily harm that may result from following this advice. I, myself, am happily married, and if you tell my wife I said this, I'll deny it.)
Whenever I buy anything, I always ask the question "What value (emotional or material) am I getting for my money?" I have never found a suitable answer to that question. Here are some of the answers, and why I disagree with them:
- "I'll stop nagging". Sorry, no dice here. I judge value by positives, by gains, not by lack of anything (nagging, etc). Anyone can tear down a building, but it takes a special man, an architect, to dream of building it in the first place. I give no heed to emotional vandals.
- "Buy this ring or I won't love you". Still no. Love is an emotion that derives from mutual respect (as opposed to lust, which is somewhat quicker to come by). You can't buy love, you can only earn it. This line is a good indication she already doesn't love you, and she's just gold-digging.
- "It will make me happy". Yeah, this is a tough one. Unfortunately, I live my life for myself, and I ask no man to go out of his way to help me. Similarly, I don't give my time and effort to others without some return consideration. You may call me cruel, but I hold the same moral and emotional standards and I do economic standards. Happiness is cheap (a walk on the beach, a trip to a rose garden), why should I spend two months' salary on something which can be had for free?
- "All my friends have them". As a previous poster noted, you're not marrying her friends, and neither is she. If her friends judge worth by the number of things they possess, that's her problem, not yours. If her friends judge worth by intelligence, they already know she's got them beat, and they're just jealous.
My conclusion is that there is nothing intrinsically valuable about diamonds, and for that reason, they are not worth the having.This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
Natural Emeralds are much more rare than natural diamonds -- and yet they cost half as much! This alone is proof of the sheer genius of the DeBeers marketing machine.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
It has 100% to do with society. and in this society when a girl is engaged all her friends will be asking to see her hand. The bigger/better the rock the more status it represents.
You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, IMO, you were using a crescent wrench... You are right-- it is about society.
Look, I was the only Quaker in my class in central Utah when I was growing up. I know all about being different. I can tell you that people have two reactions-- they are either facinated with the difference or they are repulsed. They tend to be more fascinated as they grow up too...
So, while you are right in all your points, I think the deeper issue is still, does it have to be a diamond? I think the answer is no, but personally, there I think people will notice the ring more if it is NOT what they expect but at least as magnificent. But here are some issues that need to be addressed:
1: Diamonds have come to be a symbol of permanence. This actually goes back to Roman times (thought they put their diamonds into the gold, and didn't show them off). However, there are plenty of other things that could suffice (titanium for example, or ruby).
2: Societal expectations-- quick advice, ignore this one. People tend to look twice when they are surprised. Just make sure you exceed their expectations elsewhere.
3: Cheap image. People think of diamonds as being the epitomy of wealth. So, if your ring costs at least as much as you would exect to pay for a diamond one, this goes out the window....
Here are some good reasons to break with tradition:
1: Uniqueness. If the ring is especially beautiful and unique, it will be more special, I think.
2: Personality. Diamonds are pretty, but I think they are also somewhat bland. personally I like them as supporting stones, but not as main stones.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Uh, I hate to burst your bubble, people, but being materialistic, particularly as regards to selection of men, is evolutionarily very advantageous for women.
Think about it. Take two women, one who is materialistic and one who isn't. The materialistic success of a potential partner doesn't matter to the non-materialistic woman, but does to the materialistic one. So the woman who is materialistic is more likely to end up partnering with a guy who is materially successful than the woman who isn't.
End result? The materialistic woman is more likely to end up with offspring who are more capable of being materially successful than non-materialistic woman and, on top of that, the offspring of the materialistic woman will be better provided for.
Material success is strongly tied to the ability to provide for a family. The more materially successful you are, the greater the resources you have at your disposal to provide well for your offspring. The better you can provide for your offspring, the greater their chances of survival. The better their ability to provide for themselves (i.e., to inherit your success traits), the greater their chances of survival and reproduction. And the odds of survival and reproduction are the only things that matter in evolutionary terms.
So if you were to start with those two women and look at their extended family many generations later, you'll probably find that the materialistic woman has more descendants and that those descendants are materially better off, on average, than the descendants of the non-materialistic woman.
Eventually, the materialistic types will dominate the population. Which, I think, is exactly the situation we see today. And it's no coincidence that those greedy types happen to be the most successful, as well. Why else do you think greedy entities like Microsoft, the RIAA, etc., are all so powerful and successful? It's because they're run by people who are also greedy and materialistic -- the very trait which enables them to succeed.
There is more truth than you can imagine in the phrase "nice guys finish last". You can thank evolution for it.
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
One of my biology TAs put it the best. "Here. Have a plant's reproductive organs... on a stick." I mean, what better way of showing why you really love her?
I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
Rather than trust a gut feeling, ASK HER!!!!!
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
The oil crises of the 70s seem to contradict this. Considering the degree to which the US economy relies on cheap oil, it is conceivable that the US would (and has) gone to war over oil. In the case of the gulf war, If Iraq had kept Kuwait, it would have had double its previous slice of the piped-oil supply. Its likely and probable that the US did go to war over oil in that case.
Most industrial diamonds (over 90%) are synthetic and cheap. Most are used for diamond-coated saw blades. These are used for grunt work like cutting concrete, and are a common, expendable tool.
Just before our wedding, I was looking at wedding rings with my fiancee. The jeweler had a new line of titanium rings with an inlaid band of rose gold. I thought these were the coolest possible choice: symbolically durable, practically lightweight, fashionably high-tech. And I, at least, thought them pretty.
She shot down that idea like a wounded bustard. Still calls me weird for even considering it.
I'm giving her my mom's old engagement ring. Has a diamond (sigh).
This poster is absolutely correct. I had no idea what a "conflict diamond" was, but I certainly know the history of blood diamonds.
If she wants a diamond, get her a diamond, and don't be cheap about it.
..don't panic
You have no choice.
Really, you don't.
First, if you girlfriend did not want a Diamon then you'd be in good standing. She would be willing to explain to everyone why her ring doesn't have a diamond, etc.
But, since you think she wants a diamond she will NOT being willing to explain it all the time. It will be a source of conflict in your relationship.
It won't even necessarily be obvious, but it will be there. No matter what she says.
Forever.
so the rule is,
You're supposed to spend 2 months of income on a ring.
Here's my fix:
Pretend that you got laid of from your job.
Go buy yourself a Burger King uniform and tell her you're now only earning $6 / hour instead of $40.
40-6=36
$36*40 hours * 8 weeks = $11,520 in savings to spend on laptops and stuff.
If you get caught, DO NOT take her up on her offer to have you appologize on the Jerry Springer show.
Do you think the fucking topaz miners are doing any better?
Just buy the fucking diamond and shut up you whiny bitch.
This
To a certain extent, it's like showing up for an interview in "nice clothes", or any of a million other social niceties; it's not that the action is useful in and of itself, it's that it shows your willingness to act in a potentially inconvenient way to meet an external standard.
That said, the answer to your question is "No."
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
You acutally have a really good point.
/.'ers must have so many problems in their love life that they are totally afraid of the woman's reaction.
In many cultures flowers have been a symbol of love precicely because they are what perpetuates the cycle of life. For that matter so are fruit (though here the fertility metaphore is more obvious).
Lets face it. Most of this is a language of symbols and analogies anyway. So diamonds are hard, durable, and flashy. There are other things too that are hard, durable, and flashy. The emotion may be slightly different,just make sure it says what you want it to.
I swear-- most
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Actually, a lot of them come from Ecuador, (but that is mostly true in Europe, I suppose).
The drug trade would not exist if it didn't fund itself. However, many of the third-world rose factories have pretty abominable conditions. But this is different because the market is not so tightly controlled. As the economy develops (which it can with the tourism money going into many of these countries), it will be harder to find workers that will put up with those conditions. (That is why I am starting a business promoting tourism to Ecuador, Brazil, etc. write if you want more info).
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Well, you gotta dig for them yourself (leave the squeeze behind and save $4.40), but think of the money and sleep you'll save!
Obviously, you should get her a Java Ring. They just released a new version that not only incorporates a Java Virtual Machine, but has 134 KB of space for downloaded programs. If she still wants a diamond, simply point out that a diamond can't do an RSA calculation in under one second.
[Insert pithy quote here]
If you go with a local jeweler (not one in the megamall, the one on main street) they'll let you know who their source is, and 9 out of 10 times they'll let you know how their source gets the diamonds. Yes there's only a few mines, and yes they're hotly contested (with AK-47's and such) but there are diamonds that you can buy that don't come with blood on them. You just have to know your jeweler, and their source.
As mentioned here, if the diamond's pink or purple, it's almost certainly from the Argyle diamond pipe in Australia. There's a nice picture of one at the 247k site.
Actually, the odds of getting a sleaze-free coloured diamond are reasonably good. Quote from the 247 site:
As for Argyle being sleaze-free, a quote from the mine owner, Rio Tinto.
So no slave labour or De Beers sleaze. Whether the price is a rip-off is another matter.Zoe Brain - Rocket Scientist
...because if I did not, I would not been able to wear my jewelry when we went out together.
We came to an agreement, though. My total carat weight has to be less than hers. Luckily she has more than the rings.
It pays to have jewelers in the Family.
-m
Anybody remember Paul, from the Diamond Center? He'll get you the best price and the best financing in town!
:-)
See? Nothing to worry about.
The other thing to do is to work with a small local jeweler, rather than a big chain. Your stones will generally be of higher quality and they usually want your repeat business so they'll try to get you a good deal. They're also even more appreciative in these troubled economic times.
Good luck with the shopping and the engagement...
That is all.
If you don't have the treasured ring of an older relative, how about buying a vintage ring. Other correspondents have said that diamond rings have a very low resale value. So, buying a vintage ring this should be in your favour. Buying one from a pawnbroker is probably going to seem like bad luck. How about doing a google search for estate jewelry?
On the other hand some fraction of the gold jewelry made prior to 1960 is contaminated with recycled gold that was radioactive because it had been used to enclose Radon seeds implanted as a cancer therapy. As the Radon decayed radioactive decay products got plated onto the gold
I agree with the AC: Might as well give her the best shoes you can to walk all over you.
I mean really, not only would you give up your money to please this women you'd give up your morals? That's just sad.
If my gf/fiance demanded I do something I had a moral problem with, I'd just get a new gf. (well, if I couldn't get her to accept that I wasn't going to do it)
I'm not saying that buying a diamond is that bad, but that's a pretty weak argument.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
People are spending thousands for DENSE LUMPS OF CARBON!?!
:(
I'm sorry, I honestly don't get it. And thank goodness, neither does my wife. We each have a lovely pair of white gold bands, that will easily last our lifetime.... and if they do wear out, we'll buy new ones.
If the what kind of ring you have is going to have any kind of impact on your relationship whatsoever, you're in serious trouble. If you're not sure what her reaction would be, maybe try spending a little more time with the person and get to know them better, cause maybe you're not ready to get engaged yet...
By your argument, I assume that you don't buy the argument that most heroin sales support terrorism (making users guilty of that)?
Does ANYONE believe that? The reality in Afghanistan was that drugs supported our allies in the northern alliance then did the taliban after Bush gave them (the taliban) a bunch of money to stop growing it.
Of course the taliban probably considered them terrorists, but whatever.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Actually it's way off base. It wasn't until the US started providing aid to Taliban Afghanistan that the Taliban cracked down on Opium production. And it wasn't a capital offence. If you got caught they marched you down the street warring a wreath of opium and then threw you in jail for like a month. The punishment for being clean shaven was higher.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
The taliban stoped the growing of opium, as per our request, but dumped their stock as soon as we declared 'war' in order rase capital to fight us off.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
hehe, just kidding. If she's the right one, her income will help you purchase even MORE HARDWARE. ;-)
Look for a cool looking antique ring or one at a pawn shop.
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
:-)
I bought my diamond loose from a relative "in the biz", and had it set in platinum--the only way to go. Even at half price, it ran me more than twice the paltry $2k you're quibbling about. Good rings aren't to be had for that sum, and you're right, it's better spent elsewhere if you can't afford to put money into investment quality diamonds. Get her a beautiful ring with a CZ, tell her it's a lab-created diamond, and let her know that what you plan to do is provide for both of your futures with the savings. Could be a honeymoon vacation, could be a downpayment. Whatever. The point is, if you don't have the money to spend, don't.
For people who have the means, but choose not to, you look cheap and your friends will know it. Anyone who has a $60,000+ car, owns a house, or has a good paying job (>$35k) will be seen as having no excuse. I'd be inclined to agree. If you can't show a financial committment to your betrothed, but can afford your toys, there's something wrong. It's not even so much that it's a diamond--heck, buy her a ruby or a new car or a nice pair of earrings--just something as a downpayment on your future.
The #1 thing you need to learn is picking your battles. Compromise is part of living with someone, as is taking stands on things that are so important that you'd rather be without that person than cave. (I've been married 3 wonderful years and never had to make that choice.)
As far as people judging you by diamond size and whatnot, it only matters when you just get engaged. You could just as well "rent" a diamond by adding it to your homeowners insurance policy, then leave it in the hotel on a trip. It pays for itself and you have a good story to tell your friends.
I will also point out that up until 1940, engagement rings were not diamond bearing, but typically other stones.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
There is a 1993 film called "Watch it!" There is a childhood rivalry between these two guys. They are competing for the same gal. The bad one escalates things by asking her to marry him, even though he couldn't care less about her. There is a scene where they go shopping for rings. The jeweler shows them some rings, and says something like, "These two rings look similar, but one is worth only $N, and the other one is worth 5 x $N."
The bad guy asks his fiance to step aside to talk with him. "Of course I am going to get you the expensive one honey. Now I need to negotiate with him. This is guy stuff, so wait here for me, okay?"
Then he goes over the jeweler, and says. I want you to pretend we are negotiating. Do you remember those two rings, that looked practically identical, where one was worth $N and the other 5 x $N? What I want is to buy the cheap ring, for the price you mentioned. And I am going to give you an extra $100 if you pretend, for my fiance, that I sprung for the expensive one.
Ok, so that is probably a little too alternative for most people. More seriously, if you must have a diamond, and they have crappy resale value, why not go buy a used one? eBay or pawn shop for a used ring with a nice rock, and (if necessary) spend the $$ you saved on the rock on some custom jewelry work for a setting.
Crispin
----
Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc.
Immunix: Security Hardened Linux Distribution
Available for purchase
DeBeers is also the reason that the richest minefields outside of Africa like those in Utah remain untapped or "tourist attractions".
DeBeers is the one that forced GE to only sell their synthetic diamonds for industrial use.
etc
etc
Once more unto the breach dear friends...
For the inflated price of a high street jeweller, you can afford to go to an artisan jeweller and have something completely custom. Do research on the net, find someone you both like the look of. If you live on the East Coast, you might even want to make the trip to Europe - Italy, Netherlands, parts of Germany and even Birmingham, UK are good places. And you're making a stand for individuality as well as getting something that might actually appreciate in value
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
And I'm still grappling with the ethical issues.
It made her very happy, yes; and it made me feel good to make her that happy.
But was it worth it? I honestly don't know. I don't think I'm ever buying a diamond again, though.
--Matthew
In Brasil, diamonds are considered extremely over and kitsch in anything but night jewellery, the kind used at big-time, no-more-than-two-at-a-year parties. No one would ever use them at a simple dinner, or graduation party. Only at night marriages, official receptions and the such.
For engagement and marriage rings, simple gold is more elegant, at most a combination of different colours of gold mine is a three-rings entwined imitation of classical Cartier design, each ring of a colour: white, yellow and red gold. At most people will use wrought gold: with forms of entwined elephants, or with braille codes, or whatever. But still the most elegant is simple, plain gold.
Just think if she would like to be more elegant than her kitsch friends dumped by ads but make sure she get the idea.
About ethics, just remember that bad as mining is, having no job is far worse.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
Hi,
we (my wife and me) had no special engagement rings.
German 'tradition' in that matter is to buy the weddng rings but to wear them on the left hand, and put them on the right hand after the wedding.
Both partners usually have the same ring (style-wise) and admit it, a diamond does look strange with a man...
we have rings made from platinum and gold, platinum on the outside and gold on the inside.
bye,
[L]
I was once about to study fashion design, so you might want to consider what I have to say: :-) ) and I actually *like* to wear mine, allthough I have to take it of when I type (which I do a lot).
Scimpy Diamond rings are silly and pointless. In fact, making a diamond *ring* that makes sense is very difficult, because they tend to get clutsy and big, makeing even a woman look like a pimp wearing it. Eihter you want the shine of rock (diamonds are unique in the way they gather and reflect light - that's what makes them special and why they look cool when set up the right way) - then you need a certain amount for them to take effect. Check out the stuff from Bvlgary to see what I mean.
To kinda answer your question:
My LAP (Lebens Abschnitts Partner - "life period partner") and I (we've been together 8 years and have a 4 year old daughter) got a fitting Set of Stainless Steel rings for 100$ a piece. In platinum they would cost 1200$ a piece and look *exactly* the same. They look good, fit to *everything* I could wear (or not wear
We took the remaining 2200$ and went on a vacation we'll have sweet memories about for the rest of our life. No, a scimpy zero-effect diamond pseudo-ring is not worth it. It's even pointless if you're serious about jewelery.
If there's anything that's mindless luxury it's 'rare material' jewelery. If you can't buy it without even noticing the expense, kinda like Bill Gates or Malcom Forbes wouldn't notice, then see if you can make the idea of spending the diamond ring money for something of more value attractive to her. Don't get my wrong:
If I where rich, I'd buy jewlery for my wife. The right way. Unfortunately, the stuff that actually looks good and moves away from pointless, crappy designed, "that little spec is a real diamond" to "wow, look at that - what a beautyfull necklace" comes from people like Bvlgary and Co. and costs 200K and above. If your wife doesn't look even more sexy with a piece of jewelery on her, chances are it is not the right jewelery for her or it's bad jewelery. The later is mostly the case. Keep that in mind when looking at the stuff.
Good luck macking her happy.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I agree: a lot more people are made a lot more miserable by the diamond trade than by C++. The latter is a subtle, merciful killer; it eschews violence. Freshmen simply lose the will to live about four weeks into CS101, when they learn the true meaning of inheritance and friendship: "you aren't going to get a lot of money from your parents, but you will probably get the same self-destructive behavior they had, which will probably be triggered by someone covering his ass after someone you thought was your friend tripped you up by playing with your member".
["Only friends can play with your member(s)" heard from Andy Kinley at RHIT, IIRC. Hi, Andy!]
....or go buy a ticket to Las Vegas. Find a local Hotel/Casino. Then hire a whore or better yet 3 whores and have a head sucking contest with a $500 reward for the best blow. Then go back home and count the thousands of dollars saved from the price of the ring.
http://saveie6.com/
Works well for my parents. And my girlfriend's parents. And the parents of my best friends.
,social and financial terms, when you'll be able to screen the child and transplant foreign, "better" genetic material to the offsprings ?
...
What worked well for them may very probably NOT work well for us:
you're ignoring a major factor here: the pill.
I believe the pill is the major reason for the sexual revolutions and backlashes of the second half of last century. Seperating procreation from sex was a major destabilizer for monogamy (that, and the the women joining the work-force, thus giving them options they didn't have before).
My point is: the human race is still in the after-effects of the seperation of sex from procreation, and in this respect, we ARE different from our parents.
Our descendants may go even further down this road: even today you see lesbian couples using genetic material from sperm-banks, what will the notion of marriage mean, in genetic
I guess they'll live in ingteresting times
Working for necessity's mother.
A friend's mother is a jeweller and I asked whether she'd make a ring to a rough design I'd drawn out (okay, copied & customised a little bit): just a plain gold band with a stone set in a particular way. It came out perfectly and to the right size, because my girlfriend has child-sized fingers and no off-the-shelf design would have fitted without some alteration. You can spend just as much money commissioning a ring, leave off the diamond, and your girlfriend knows she has something that was made just for her rather than hurriedly picked off a shelf in exchange for so many months' salary. A few people have mentioned girlfriends comparing diamond sizes, feelings of inadequacy, bitchiness etc.-- well custom-made trumps expensive any day, which is good because I was a poor student at the time :-)
Matthew @ Bytemark Hosting
You cannot see the print, only feel them when you wear the ring (like they feel each others hands).
The rings are made of some kind of special alloy (titanium or something, I forgot which), they are light and look rather simple but very pretty.
Of course this guy is an engineer, as you may have guessed. :-)
Idempotent operation: Like MS software, wether you run it once or often, that doesn't make it any better.
[Nitpick mode on]
:-)
Titanium actually isn't an alloy. It's a chemical element and a pure metal in it's own right.
[Nitpick mode off]
Sorry, couldn't resist. I don't want you go discriminating on such a fine metal, y'know?
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
The long term (ie 50 years and up) value of diamonds is near to zero. It's just carbon, give or take some manfacturing processes. In the long term, once some basic nanotech (not the way-out stuff, just better molecular assembly processes) is sorted out, there is no reason why a kilo block of diaomond should cost more than say, ten times the cost of a kilo block of plastic.
Yes, you can tell manufactured diaomonds from those made 'naturallly' in volcanos by counting the rings or something. But when people start throwing manufactured diaomond stuff out with thier daily trash, the image of 'natural' diamond is sure to take a knock. There is no real, material difference between the two. As ever with diamonds, it's about marketing.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
THE GIRLS CARE NOTHING FOR DIAMONDS, ALL THEY MIND IS THE PRICE IT COSTED YOU
That's not cynical or anything like that. She likes to know that she is important to you, and you will expend a lot of money for her. As a matter of fact, an study on gifts to girls found that the presents they most liked were small-format very-expensive laptops. Really. No kidding. Forget diamonds. Kick one up the ass to the DeBeers cartel. Don't play along.
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
These are not the people you should be asking for advice on your girlfriend. These are geeks. Most of them don't even have girlfriends.
Trolling aside, if you think your girlfriend would want a diamond, you would be a fool to substitute something else. She may suggest something else is ok, but that is a lie. She really wants the diamond and she will resent the fact that you didn't get her one.
-- Will program for bandwidth
And if she wants a lampshade made from human skin? There's not much ethical difference.
Tell her how these things are obtained and what DeBeers does to maintain the price and if she still wants one tell her to take a hike; you'll be better off.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
There's nothing grey about the diamond industry, it's black from top to bottom. Plus, diamonds are only expensive because they are kept that way; they are not nearly as rare as DeBeer's would have you think. In the 70's the board of DeBeers actually considered hireing ships to take diamonds out into the Atlantic to dump them. Ship loads. That's not a rare commodity.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Unfortunately, de Beers controls the market to such an extent that it can be tricky finding a jeweller willing to order and set a synthetic diamond for you...
The jeweller doesn't have to - often the piece appreciates. I know someone whose engagement ring cost in the region of GBP 2500 in 1985; it's now worth about GBP 8000 (sold, I guess, second-hand). Of course, it's her engagement ring - she's not going to sell it.
The downside of this is that she lost the central stone out of the ring a fortnight ago (there are three stones, one large and two small). Fortunately, the insurance will replace it with one of an equivalent colour, quality, etc. The thing that amazes me is that this isn't even the first time the stone has dropped out! (In other words, the stone she just lost is not the one that was originally on the ring either!).
De-Beers and co are trying to aim for trademarks to identify "real" diamonds (i.e. dug out of the dirt). But I don't think it will really play in the long run.
Try asking if she would prefer an expensive honeymoon instead. That will also be a good reply to obnoxious women shoving huge rocks under her nose and saying "where's yours then?". You/she can just say "we decided to spend the money on a 5 star hotel in [Distant place]" and then gush about how wonderful it all was. Going to interesting places beats shiny rocks every time.
Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
Actually, recalling from my college "Love and Marrage" class, the women there basically told us men they considered flowers an "I fucked up" gift.
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
This algorithm has fairness benefits as well. If the seat is down (which it will be slightly more than half the time) guy puts it up, and if the seat is up (slightly less than half) girl puts it down. This results in a fairly even distribution of labor, whereas the always-put-the-seat-down algorithm results in one party doing all the work.
Of course it would be even more efficient to just get a urinal, and let the girl epoxy the seat down if she wants. I've never understood why urinals are only in public restrooms, and are never found in the home.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
No.
Donate background CPU time to fight cancer.
I bought my wife's diamond used.
It was a drizzily afternoon in Nottingham UK.
She was visiting me for the week. We were in an antique jewlery shop, and I saw a ring that was VERY cool looking.
Asked the shop keep how much ($500 quid/about $750 US) and if he could have it sized.
The ring was over 130 years old, had a unique setting (since they were all hand made)called a king's setting or something or other. And the diamond itself was NOT machine cut.
That means it had deeper facits (more sparkle) and all that was done by a victorian man with a small wooden chisle and hammer.
MUCH cooler than the stamped out , over priced, artificially demanded rings now adays.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
i have always questioned 'diamonds'. after all it's only an example of a fantastic marketing campaign by DeBeers. i always thought that i was kinda alone in thinking that. and that diamonds after all had some value. relieved to see other people skipping (or trying to at least) on the 'marriage tax' to DeBeers. i had to buy my now wife a diamond ring only because of my parents who thought it would be socially unaccetable to not have one. but my wife doesn't wear rings. she wears one with her birthstone and is very cool with me not wearing anything. her reason -- if the marriage is held together only by the ring that's a pretty sad pathetic marriage. i've been 'surprising' her with books instead. (she's really into genetics.)
It's just a rock. Give her a pebble. It's all the same. If she wants to marry you because of the baubles you can collect and provide her I suggest you tell her to piss off immediately. Or perhaps she can save up her money and get her own fucking shiny rock.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
1. Does SHE want a diamond?
2. Does she want an EXPENSIVE diamond?
First, if she wants an diamond, get her one.
Second, if she wants an EXPENSIVE diamond, get a new girlfriend, because she's just too materialistic.
I paid the same amount for the ring, (Don't be fooled, a REAL engagement ring, is just the half of the wedding ring that has the diamonds on it) as I paid for the honeymoon. Personally, I think that's a good mix.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Am I the only one who read this as BUY HER first? Because that's pretty much what you are talking about.
Gosh, if my girlfriend wanted a nigger slave for proposition, I'd not give her one out of principle. If she insists upon a diamond and it's against your principles, ask yourself what your principles mean to you.
There is absolutely no reason to panic.
I would love to see the Israelis do this, if they used large enough weaponry - the blast radius and fallout would nicely blanket the whole country, giving the Israelis proper punishment for Zionism.
"Um, honey? I read on /. that diamonds are evil, so I got you a Radeon 9700 instead." Yeah, that will go over really well...
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
My wife told me straight out that she didn't want a diamond engagement ring.
She simply didn't care for such a diamond ring. She generally doesn't like jewelry, but occasionally likes a few simple pieces.
Knowing what I do about the artificial market for diamonds, I was more than happy to oblige her wishes. It was simply more money for the wedding and honeymoon, which are not cheap, either.
But do go in together to pick out wedding bands.
The experience of doing that, thinking about what kind of ring you want (Au, Ti, Ag, Pt, wide or narrow, plain or decorated, what to write on the inside - please not the LotR phrase, etc.) helps cement a relationship at least as well as getting a big rock. Or, at least, if the relationship was going to go anywhere, then the mutual ring picking experience will reinforce the same relationship dynamics.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
You cannot go against nature.
Because when you do
Go against nature
It's part of nature too
A well cut diamond is beautiful. You may think it is ugly. Fine. But there is nothing magic about your belief they are ugly just because your belief runs against the preaching of foreign diamond cartels.
The point here being that more people should quit doing what they're doing just because the rest does it too
In many cases, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this behavior. There are so many decisions in life, you often need to go with the flow to keep sane. That includes making decisions because those around you make the same ones and making decisions because they are contrary to the decisions made by those around you.
In this case, for whatever reason, his girlfriend wants the diamond. That is the only salient point in this discussion.
I proposed to my girlfriend when we were both in college, and I had very little money. I was going to go to graduate school, and knew I wouldn't have any money for a long time. The ring was a modestly sized garnet, in a simple gold setting, $50 at Sears. Up to that time, it was probably the most money I'd every spent on jewelry.
/. topic, I know nobody is going to read this. It's like those sand paintings that are created in order to celebrate what *is*, not in the expectation that they will be responded to, or become a permanat exhibit. I just wanted to declare to the world that the quality of your love is so very much more important than the chemical composition of the ring that symbolizes it.
She loved it, because of what it represented. She knew I had more prospects than money, and she was able to see the ring for what it meant, rather than what it was composed of chemically. She told me that she was glad I hadn't blown a ton of dough on a big ring I couldn't really afford, because she didn't want to start our married life in debt for something that wouldn't add to quality of life the way a car, house, blender, etc. would. Our wedding was great, our marriage has been wonderful. I would be a shabby imitation of myself if I didn't have her in my life.
She got a lot of really great reactions to the ring, surprisingly. A red stone for an engagement ring is unusual enough to be eye-catching. It's a dark red garnet, and a lot of people asked if it was a ruby. She's not ashamed of her ring, and always told them that it's a garnet, a semi-precious stone. I suppose there's a certain cache in that, a ring who's value is so purely symbolic, because she often saw women with big diamond rings in platinum settings get jealous.
We've been married 11 years, now. Our third child, a little girl, was born 8 weeks ago, and our two boys are bright, energetic, handsome kids. Our love is flourishing. As for the ring, my wife accidentally dropped it over the railing from the third tier at Wrigley Field a month after we were married, still not used to wearing it. By some miracle, we found it on the pavement outside the park; one of the prongs holding the garnet in place got bent, but the stone was OK. After a few years, the thin gold band was wearing through, and the bent prong would catch on fabric, and she had to be really careful with it. For our 5 year anniversary, I suggested we get her a higher quality ring. OK, but she wouldn't hear of replacing her garnet. We had the stone reset in a better quality band, flanked with a pair of small diamonds. We'd saved up some money, despite both of us being in graduate school at that point, and went with diamonds for an aesthic reason - they set off the garnet and made it appear even more dark and lustrous.
When I finished my PhD, and got a postdoc position, with my first salary that didn't start with a "1", I wanted to adorne my wife, to gild the lily, give her something beatuiful and extravagant and utterly impractical, to make up for the years of more practical and useful gifts. She selected small diamond stud earrings... because our new baby boy kept grabbing at the long, dangling earrings she typically wore. Sensible, even in her extravagances. What a wife.
I got a real job three years ago, and we moved and bought a house. For our 10th anniversary, we were still broke from buying the house. For our 11th anniversary, our 4-week old baby let us sleep for 6 hours straight. It was wonderful. After a few raises and promotions, I've got some money now. I suggested to my wife that we get her some more jewelry, maybe some rubies or emeralds to set off her eyes. With a kiss and a hug, she handed me a stack of brochures about savings plans for college tuition, and said that there were more important things. What a wife.
With 300+ comments already attached to this
The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain
First my qualifications: I have been married for 16 years to one wonderful woman. We have 4 kids.(OK I'm older than most /. ers) I can honestly say, that I have loved every minute of our marriage. I love making this woman happy and she makes me grin like a five year old in a candy store.
My advice: Look seriously at your relationship. If you can't talk about the realities of engagement and marriage honestly and openly, step back and improve the relationship before moving forward.
Then, talk with her and find out what she would like. That doesn't have to be a matter-of-fact, in your face arguement. Be smart and LISTEN (by the way, that's what women REALLY want.) Then do whatever you can really afford to make her dreams come true. Put some thought into it. Make it original and meaningful. The fore-thought must show through!
My story: I knew my gf came from a very traditional background. She worked with a gossipy bunch. She isn't materialistic. She IS sentimental. I wanted to give her a ring and an EXPERIENCE she could brag about to her friends and would always remember. Since my natural father died when I was young, my mom gave me her rings from him. I had them cleaned up and packeged, etc. Since the ring wasn't expensive I had some money to spend on the engagement night. (How you ask IS important.) I took her to a fancy seafood dinner (her favorite), then a fun play. On the way home, I stopped at an old fashioned park by the lake. There under the moonlight, we sat on a park bench under a small streetlight. The old oak trees were draped with spanish moss. I knelt down on one knee, swallowed hard and asked. She still brags about that night to her friends!
So: remember the ring is a symbol. Symbols mean something to very specific people. Find the symbol that will mean the right thing to both of you. BTW, If you are trying to justify being cheap, you are doomed!
I gave my wife a pearl necklace. Now, every night she wants a pearl necklace. It gets tiring.
When I purchase jewelery for my g/fs (which unfortunately are all my ex-g/fs right now). I don't purchase it because it has a big rock on it, or because DeBeers tells me to buy diamonds.
I spend money on the jewels that show the workmanship of the jeweler, show the artistry. The stone is just an accessory of the final product. Nothing more. If I found a ring that looks beautiful that my wife would accept as an engagement ring and it didn't have any diamonds on it, I wouldn't mind.
The diamond is just an accessory to the final artistic piece that is the ring. Unfortunately, most people don't realize this, and just decide that the bigger the 'rock' is the better. When it's more a question of how much effort was placed in the creation of the piece of art that is jewelery.
The British Crown Jewels are all works of art, not because they have large 'rocks' in them. But rather because those rocks have been so well placed in a way that shows beauty and light.
Just MHO of course.
~ kjrose
My wife and I resolved the conflict between the expectations of society (and more particular, certain relatives and friends) and our own tendency towards fiscal and social responsibility by getting her a stunning cubic zirconia in a very nice setting. CZ these days are good enough that it's fooled every jeweler that's seen it. We were more interested in things like hardware upgrades and a replacement for our dying car at the time. My ring is a simple white gold band, no decoration at all.
this is getting old and so are you
blog
I also bought my wife a diamond. She does not care much for jewelry, and she would have been happy with a small conservative diamond ring. That is fine, but I wanted to do more, so I got her a really nice ring with a big rock on it. I think that the ring sometimes helps women to "see" how important they are. After all, if you are willing to spend that much money on something as useless as jewelry, just because you love her, then...
Besides I like it when people see her ring and their eyes bug out or they comment on how nice it is. (I am sure she doesn't mind either)
Yes, diamond engagement rings may be a brilliant marketing strategy for the Cartel, but it is a strategy that has worked. Deep down we all judge ourselves based on other people. If we had talked about it, my wife would have been fine with another type of stone, or a ring without a stone, but deep down she would not have been as content as she was "with" the ring.
Conformity is a fact of life.
This is the route I went in picking out a ring for my beloved. I found a beautiful antique ring with a diamond and two sapphires, and paid about 50% of the appraisal value. Not that either of us would ever sell the ring, but it does still have its full resale value, and has probably appreciated slightly from when I bought it. The ring also has something most modern "engagement" rings don't: character. Most modern rings are a simple band of gold, and a diamond of whatever size you can afford whacked in the middle of it. It's obvious to all around who look at the ring (and her friends will scrutinize this) how much you care about her, as judged by the size of the diamond in the middle of the ring. Find a small local antique shop, and support your local merchant. They probably shop locally, too. I guarantee not one cent from that sale went directly to fund any terrorist activity (unless you count putting gas in the shopkeeper's car).
At any rate, it's possible to get a decent ring, at a decent price, and you need not feel guilty about slave labour, or supporting terrorism. Buy a ring. Choose wisely.
How's my programming? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL
... are to be found in a ring I inherited from my grandmother. Whilst neither of us would have considered going out and buying them, the family connection makes the difference.
I had a
Diamonds are not romance. Even flowers are not romance (although they're far better than diamonds). Dinner at a great restaurant isn't romance. Nothing you can buy her is romance, ever, period. Romance isn't about what you spend and her wearing black slinky dresses. It's about the two of you, and as such, whatever trappings you use are specific to you.
Now, in your case you happen to think that women think differently than men on some issues. This pretty much guarantees that you're going to have relationships with women who *do* think differently. That's fine. You want to buy flowers and diamond rings, the whole while you mutter to yourself that this is stupid? Go ahead. And you think this proves that you love her, because women think differently than men and you're pandering to their point of view which is--in your words--fucking stupid?
Get over your self righteousness. The other guy is right. An ugly rock != proof of love. Proof of love is paying attention to the other person. If it so happens that she really *wants* the diamond ring (ugh), maybe buying her the ring she wants demonstrates affection. But it's not the ring, and it's certainly not your condescending attitude.
Read Bujold. Free (as in
Diamonds are not time honored tradition!! It's all a DeBeer's ploy. Don't believe me, this article talks about it and has links to people like the Washington Post. DeBeer's created the diamond market and created the "tradition." They've received advertising honors for this feat!
http://www.howstuffworks.com/diamond3.htm
The ads don't say which two months' salary, right? Here's what you do - take a leave of absence or quit your job, if you have one, for two months. Enjoy your time off - maybe even spend it with your sweetie, but do some panhandling in the subway/mall/wherever to make a little money during that time. With those two months' salary, buy your sweetie a ring. Then return to work.
When we were buying our wedding set we looked at the 'traditional' diamond center stone, and it looked stupid. We went with smaller diamonds surrounding a ruby center stone -- the combination looks great and we didn't spend our life's savings on it.
Remember that this isn't an investment. Resale value has no meaning, because you're not going to be selling it (and if you think you might then why the hell are you getting married?).
But you do have to make her happy, and that means fufulling hundreds of years of accumulated social expectations. As much as that sucks, its the reality, so get used to it.
Congratulations and Good Luck!
Remember Lexington Green!
I do happen to have several sets of heirloom engagement rings and wedding bands from other women in my line. I used one set for the ceremony more to honor the memory of the woman who wore it than to symbolize a bond between myself and my husband. I do occasionally wear any one of the sets, but frequently I wear no wedding/engagement ring at all.
I know many women who have wedding bands but no engagement rings, and a lot of engaged women who do not have engagement rings. One couple I know have rather elaborate wedding rings set with turquoise.
There are a lot of reasons to not buy a diamond engagement ring, including the ones you state. They are expensive and frivolous. To me, the idea that a man has to lay out outrageous amounts of money to "prove" his love is a shallow notion. Choose another stone that does not conflict with your ideals, or get her no engagement ring at all.
If you're choosing a symbol to represent unending love, there's not a lot wrong with choosing a life-giving, pure element, aside from the lack of originality, but why does everything you do have to be original?
There are two points I'd like to address here.
The first is the artifical, hallmark perception of "unending love", as cold and static as a linoleum floor. A shiny, brittle, unchanging rock is a very poor symbol of a healthy relationship of ANY kind, let alone a life-long partnership.
Relationships change and develop, grow and prosper, through things like hard work, patience, trust, empathy, respect, active mutual understandings, and communication. Even with all of these things, however, there will be fighting, anger, harsh words, conflicts of interest, clashing cultural backgrounds or upbringing, miscommunications, misperceptions, and sometimes worse. Because we are human.
It is fundamental to the human condition that personal growth comes from resolution of conflict, and mutual growth works the same way. The only way to remain conflict-free is to surrender your opportunity to mature as a human being. That's a pretty steep price to pay for a white picket fence and some peace and quiet. Without the so-called flaws of a partnership, none of that which is truly valuable would ever surface. A relationship is a vast, opaque, nebulous and ever-changing thing. And to top it all off, partnerships are vastly undervalued by the market.
Aside from being multifaceted, I can see nothing in a diamond that is representative of the kind of union of which I hope we are all speaking.
The second point is in response to your (presumably rhetorical) question, in part, "...why does everything you do have to be original?".
original - adj.
1. Preceding all others in time; first.
2. Not derived from something else; fresh and unusual: an original play, not an adaptation.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Every partnership, entered into freely and knowingly, is a "fresh and unusual" thing. No one is like another, and comparing them is almost universally futile. To face the challenges mentioned above, your greatest asset will be your creativity, your ability to reframe and redefine problems and barriers of all shapes and sizes. As a symbol of a union, I cannot think of a single reason why a token of troth should not reflect that creativity, or originality. Everything you do must be original if you consider yourself a thinking being.
Now, I am not suggesting that your every action should defy convention, but how many times a day do you go on autopilot, coast along letting your nervous system take control, without expressing yourself in some way? How much of your life passes without excercizing your one and only truly inalienable right, that of free thought? Why does everything one does have to be original? Because one may as well be dead if it is not. You contribute nothing of value to the world, and do not grow emotionally, intellectually, or communally.
I would like, finally, to make it clear that I am not talking about creative talent here. You don't have to be a professional artist to think and act creatively. There is creativity in every person born, the potential for originality in every moment of every day of every single man and woman's life. All it takes is choosing to step back for a moment and actually observe the life that you are living, the faces of the people that surround you every day, the barriers that you build around yourself, both physically and emotionally. Do you ever smile at people on the subway, or the bus? Do you even dare to make eye contact on the street? Why, or why not? Or do you even know?
"All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
Of course. But so does patronizing them. And that is exactly what you are suggesting.
Saying that she wants one hence she needs one to me means that you view your girlfriend as an almost non-sentient being that is incapable of abstract thought. In my own girlfriends case this would be an insult.
That's just a load of shit. Getting engaged is not a logical thing. It is an affair of the heart. You don't take your girlfriend aside and say, "I know you want a diamond, but..." followed by a litany of logical reasons why she should not want what she wants. It does not matter if you are right, and it is especially bad if you are wrong.
What she wants on this issue is right. Period. Your logic is not required. There are only two times when this is true. When you get married and when she is pregnant.
Before we got married, my wife worked on 'jewlers row' in Philadelphia, grading diamonds for a living. She knew all the politics, all the fake costs, and considers DeBeers more evil than I do Microsoft.
When we got engaged, she designed a platinum ring with a blue saphire as the main stone.
She is ecstatic with it, because EVERY time she wears it out (maybe 2-3 times a month) SOMEONE comments about how pretty and unusual it is.
I got my wife 1.4 carats of Diamond Love
she got me a Gibson SJ-200
Fair deal.
This
I did the diamond thing when we were first married. Big rock in a big setting, stuck out like a zit on Prom Night. We did it because we didn't know any better and it was what was expected of us.
After we had a kid she had to stop wearing it because she would spear him with it every time she picked him up. So, she started wearing a plain gold band. After a couple years, she decided she wanted a nice ring again, but she didn't want her wedding ring. She went out and bought a better band where the stones didn't stick up and she used zirconia. Her rationale is that only she will know and she would rather spend the money on a minivan than a f*#%ing diamond.
When you are young and in love you do stupid things like spending $5000 on a diamond. When you are older and your relationship takes on a more comfortable feel, you look at the DeBeers ads and chuckle at how silly it all was. Then, you go out and buy a minivan.
So, buy her whatever feels right for you but don't invest too much sentiment in it. It's just a ring. But, don't forget to send her flowers every couple months and be sure to send them to her work where all the other women in her office can see them. Bring home her favorite ice cream when she calls and you can tell she's in the dumps. Rub her feet when she's pregnant. Those are the things that really show her you care.
</LECTURE>
I pointed out that an engagement ring on a man was unusual, but would be neat. Then she reminded me that traditional Claddagh rings serve for both engagement and wedding rings.
The traditional claddagh design has a heart, held by two hands, with a crown on top of the heart. I think this is also called the "Royal Claddagh". There is also a "Finnian Claddagh" that lacks the crown, for obvious reasons.
Claddagh rings date from 17th century Ireland. Worn on the right hand, heart facing out, the ring indicates that the wearer is available (I offer my heart to you). Worn on right hand with the heart facing inwards indicates that you are engaged. The Claddagh as a wedding ring is worn on the left hand with the heart facing inwards.
Both my lady and I have some Irish blood, and we like quaint old customs. [This was well before the renewed interest in things Celtic.]
The most common, and probably most traditional claddagh rings are all metal. We chose to have rings custom-made with gems in them.
My wife's ring is white gold; the heart is a ruby as red as blood. My ring is yellow gold, with an emerald as green as the forest.
Diamonds? Pah! Everybody has those.
Actually, my partner Vikki was not at all interested in a diamond. She doesn't find them attractive. What she wanted was a top-grade emerald, which is more beautiful in her eyes. The deep rich green-with-just-a-hint-of-blue is her color :)
:)
But if you're looking for a rare stone that's also pretty, and will certainly hold its value, try taaffeite Several of these gems have been found, as has a location for low-grade, not gem grade, material, but to date the source of gem-grade taaffeite remains undiscovered. It's far too rare to be used as a major source of terrorism funding
Lemon curry?
some of the comments here about canadian diamonds have been bullshit. i used to work for a mining company that mined canadian diamonds. i worked at a diamond pit in NWT of Canada for a while too. Here are some facts: 1. the conditions on site are fanstastic compared to your average coal mine! you wouldnt complain. we even had internet access. 2. the majority of canadian diamond mines are owned and operated by non deBeers interests. 3. the majority of diamonds from these mines are sorted and sold through Belgium and prices are regulated by deBeers interests, but no money goes to deBeers. i dont think these diamonds are lasered with the polar bear. 4. the rest are sold directly to the canadian market and get the polar bear lasered on the edge. and yes, they are the higher quality diamonds and typically very expensive! And as for my opinion: $1500 is my limit for a diamond ring. Thats what my wife got and she loves it :-)
j.
I just got married less than 2 months ago. LIke a lot of people, I have a thing against diamonds. To me they are boring. I prefer coloured stones. Much nicer. When I proposed to my wife I gave her an amethyst that I had carved into a heart. She liked this way more than a boring diamond.
:)
If you really want to get a diamond I suggest that you look at Canadian diamonds. They are mined in non-terroist conditions and are a bit more unique. And lots of them have a kewl little polar bear etched onto the girdle of the diamond.
You're not lost if you don't care where you are.
Repeat after me:
I want to get laid often, I will buy a diamond.
I want to get laid often, I will buy a diamond.
I want to get laid often, I will buy a diamond.
Blog,Twitter
Do what I did. Buy your diamond at an antique or estate jeweler. You can get the ring brand-new elsewhere if you like. I got the whole ring at my local antique and estate jewelery dealer and my fiance said it was "perfect." I don't think I could hope for more than that.
I am ignoring the pill because it's irrelevant. The reason I don't cheat on my intended is not because I might get caught, it's because I believe it is wrong. The pill has nothing to do with that decision. So yeah, the human race as a whole might still be sorta confused about these new factors, but individuals need not be.
As far as gay marriages go, I don't understand the brouhaha. I'd be happy to have the law changed so that there are no tax considerations to marriage...I don't think it's appropriate for the State to get involved in what goes on in a bedroom, whether you're gay or straight. At that point, gay couples could put rings on each other's fingers, say "we're married!" and go on about their business. Everybody's happy.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
This comment has two parts. Feel free to ignore the first part if you think astrology is bunk.
First, according to Hindu Sidereal astrological principles, only approximately half of the population can or should wear diamonds. For the other half of the population, wearing a diamond may cause health problems, relationship problems, problems with children, and/or problems in other facets of life. The determining factor here is the sidereal ascendant or rising sign.
My wife's ascendant indicates that a diamond would be detrimental.
Second, I bought my wife a Star Ruby as an engagement ring. She loves the attention she gets from having a unique non-traditional engagement ring.
Did I save any money? Mind your own business!
Hmm, I don't see how the cat isn't going to call in just because the seat is down, or how it's any more likely it won't fall in.
:-)
Related story:
My mum has a cat that can both drink from *and* urinate it the toliet (I have seen it do both, but not at the same time).
Somehow I think I would be more impressed if it only ever did one of these things
Most definitely. There are a couple of posters who describe there (including myself, earlier). I adore mine. You can have them grown for you. There is a lot of variability in color - if it's murky or more brilliant in color, and how different the color change is.
It's also on some of those birthstone lists for June.
I'm not sure if this has been covered, and I'm sure as hell not going to wade through comments in the four-digit range, but there are a couple of ways to get your money's worth.
.75 caret, 1 caret, .5 carets, like nature and jewelers worked on a rational number system. But people go in and want to buy the nice round numbers. So there is less demand for the odd chickens... you might be able to get the .73, for example, for quite a bit less than the .75.
One is to buy a nonstandard caret. You hear
I'm sure there are others.
-TBHiX-
My wife asked me to marry her, so I didn't have to even worry about this topic. What a surprise! She gave me a necklace she designed that is really nice, it has a peacock obsedian stone in a neat white gold fixture. It's appropriate for me, seeing as I used to wear various necklaces for a long time.
But really, we had talked about the engagement ring years beforehand at some point when it came up in a random conversation. We had agreed that I would take her on some kind of a fancy trip instead of giving her an engagement ring, which is perfect because she really loves to travel. I have yet to follow-through on that because I'm having trouble finding jobs after graduating, but will some day (soon hopefully) when I have a few $$ set aside.
I'd say screw tradition and make your own tradition, unless she really wants one and tells you so. It means so much more to us to have our own symbols of our commitment to eachother. The wedding bands were custom designed by a friend, and really suit us well.
Just my $0.02, seeing as I was married this past July 6th..
__ No registration required to read this message. They did it in the Matrix.
No matter how you rationalize it, if you buy a diamond, Canadian, from DeBeers, estate sale, or otherwise, you are perpetuating this apparent tradition.
So while you think you got a got deal, and are not supporting the diamond cartels, you in fact are. Every time another women looks at your fiancees ring, the apparent traditional will be reinforced in another persons mind.
I think of it like this, and can't believe I haven't seen it anywhere else yet.
You can run around downloading warezed copies of Windows 2000 and Microsoft Office, and declare that you feel good about not giving a god damned penny to those evil Microsoft people. But every time you download and use a Windows product, every time you accept an emailed Microsoft Word document, every time you tell people you use Windows, every time you don't tell people your believes about why Microsoft is bad but use Windows anyway, during all these situations you are further perpetuating the Microsoft monopoly. And I see diamonds in the exact same way.
The BMW 5-series is a truly high-performance driving machine. For the money, there's not much else that's similarly comfortable and powerful. Personally, I'd love to have an M5 - and I've *never* seen an ad for one. I've just seen the specs and the driving reviews. :)
Not that we're talking about performance luxury cars, though...
My wife--God bless her--didn't want a diamond. She wanted an aquamarine. We picked out matching bands and then got her a 2d band to which we mounted an elliptical cut aquamarine. It's 1.25ct and, at a very pale blue, looks grand.
And it's done the job for 23+ years now...
"Love is a familiar; Love is a devil: there is no evil angel but Love." --William Shakespeare ('Love's Labors Lost')
I have been aware of the social, political, and environmental implications of the diamond trade for a long time. Before we got married, I think my husband was struggling with more of the sheer expense (for nothing of any real value) issue when he finally came to me and asked.
This conversation really happened, and we are quite happily living for the fourth year in our brick, two-storey home, with a fine swing on the porch. It doesn't have a garage as yet, but last month it appraised at $32,000 more than the purchase price. With equity like that, we could build a garage and a data haven as well.
And the last time i checked, diamonds don't have spare rooms that can be used as anything, let alone converted into a nursery when life takes an unexpected turn.
Chances are that if your lady has sense enough to like a geek, then she has sense enough to value something other than a diamond. I advise asking; you might be surprised at the answer.
Love and peace,
heidi
But "nothing is not equal to nothing" is a false statement, and it is what someone is saying when they say lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
(Because evidence of lack is a null set, and so is lack of evidence - they both evaluate to "nothing", which was my point.)
There's NO SUCH THING as evidence of lack, even if it turns out to be the case that ET's don't exist. If you consistantly apply a policy that you will spend time pursuing the possibility that something exists until such a time as evidence of it's lack comes in, you will end up wasting time pursuing just about every possibility you can dream up, since the set of possible conditions that could convince you to break off the pursuit is the empty set.
Lack of evidence is the ONLY kind of evidence of lack that can you can ever hope for. If something doesn't exist, it leaves behind no evidence.
Carl Sagan's thinking on this is identical to that often used by people to justify irrational belief in a god. As Carl himself rejected belief in god, it shows he was not applying this rule consistently in his life. He got a bit sloppy in his thinking on that quote.
(Does this mean Carl should have believed in god? No, just the opposite - he shouldn't have used the same fallacy god believers use to justify his pursuit of ET's. Now, me, I *do* think the pursuit of ET's is still worthwhile, but not just for the reason that disproof is lacking (since unlike Carl I recognize that asking for disproof in order to stop the pursuit is setting the bar impossibly high). I think it's worthwhile because there *is* enough evidence to indicate that the likelyhood of it is high enough to be worth it. Simply work the probability math - the set of conditions needed is rather rare, but the number of trials is very large when you talk about the entire universe.)
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
At no point did I imply any such thing. Did you even read my post? Perhaps you are confusing it with stuff others have said in this thread. Read it again.
I made three points, and three points only:
1. Slavery was brutal and evil.
2. A lot of revisionists would have us believe otherwise.
3. Those people are full of shit.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
You may be right. Personally, though, I think that any man who gave me a rock that was extracted by workers under near-slavery like conditions and told me it was because he loved me needs to get his head, and his ethics, checked. The whole point of a diamond is that it's a symbol of something. What is it a symbol of? Well, it's been made into a symbol of love, fidelity, affection, devotion. But it is also a symbol of the company who infused it with those meanings: de Beers. And they're rotten through and through.
Now, I don't think that the fact that one woman--myself--says "do not EVER buy me a diamond" is going to make a damned bit of difference to the cartel that runs the diamond market in circles. I don't think it'll improve working conditions for one person in Africa. I don't think it'll make one person's life even slightly better.
But a diamond is a symbol, yes? If a man bought me a diamond I would honestly feel ill. Sick. Disgusted. Because what a diamond symbolizes to me is greed, commercialism, the rapacity of western civilization, and the still-intolerable reek of colonialism. A diamond symbolizes our culture's ability to turn a blind eye to the things we don't want to see. It symbolizes the power of acquisition, as if love, like a diamond ring, is something that you could purchase. No, folks, this is not love you're seeing. This is not love at all.
Now, you want to know what *will* make a difference? Let me tell you what I'm going to do if I ever get married. First of all, I already have everything I need for a household. So rather than getting wedding presents, I'm going to ask that people donate to some of my favorite charities. And if he wants to drop ten thousand dollars on me, this is what we're going to do. We're taking a honeymoon to Africa, and we're teaching. I have a lot of useful skills--I'm sure any man I marry will, too--and I know that we can do some good, make differences in some people's lives, and help build infrastructure in places that badly badly need it. Now, that, folks, is a wedding ring I can be proud of: several thousand dollars, six months, and who knows how many lives changed.
Now, I realize that there are many women in the world who aren't like me. They want rings, and they want rocks, and I guess that's fine with me, as they don't see a diamond the way I do. But for god's sake, it's not the diamond that proves you love her--it's the fact that she wants the diamond, and you're willing to do it for her.
Read Bujold. Free (as in
Marriage may be a union, but it doesn't mean you have to make up laws like a union. =)
-Tom
How rare are/what would be the price of diamonds if there was no cartel?
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
I am ignoring the pill because it's irrelevant. The reason I don't cheat on my intended is not because I might get caught, it's because I believe it is wrong.
and education and society had no effect on your values, on your determination that it's wrong ?
The pill has nothing to do with that decision.
again, not directly on your personal decision, but on monogamy as a whole and it's effect on moral-values ( i.e. what's right/wrong in your society) the pill definately affects, and this in turn, like it or not, affects you.
IMHO, A person should not dispair of all moral issues and decisions because they are subject to historic, genetic, economic, and memetic influences. However, a person would be naive to accept them w/o questioning such influences, their origin and their affect on himself and others.
So yeah, the human race as a whole might still be sorta confused about these new factors, but individuals need not be.
see above, one should not be confused, but rather be skeptical and aware when making important decisions.
As far as gay marriages go, I don't understand the brouhaha.
My point was to give an example on how procreation-related technology (artificial insemination today, genetic modification tommorow) affects the relation between sex and procreation, whose most important manifestation is the institution of marriage (gay or hetro). It seems you have missed that point, perhaps due to me not being clear enough.
I'd be happy to have the law changed so that there are no tax considerations to marriage...I don't think it's appropriate for the State to get involved in what goes on in a bedroom, whether you're gay or straight. At that point, gay couples could put rings on each other's fingers, say "we're married!" and go on about their business. Everybody's happy.
again, you try to answer many questions I did not mention, imply or even am very interested in.
Working for necessity's mother.
I take responsibility for my determinations of what is right and wrong. I'm not going to believe what I believe just because I'm told to, and I'm not going to write off my principles just because I happened to inherit parts of them from my parents and teachers.
My beliefs are mine, their relationship to those held by society at large is coincidental and irrelevant to their importance to me. YMMV.
Certainly, technology is going to have a dramatic effect on procreation and, by extension on our society. But those effects are not deterministic (IE they don't force any given human to believe any certain way) and are therefore not relevant to any individual's choices about what is Right and Wrong.
I'm certainly not trying to impose my ideals on everybody...I'm nowhere near wise enough to do that. But my ideals belong to me and me alone, as yours belong to you and you alone. We may share certain tenets, and I may even inherit some from you (or vice versa) but each one of us must take ownership of SOME ideal in order for their life to be meaningful. If you're just the walking-around expression of a selfish gene, I don't think that's a very fulfilling existence. If you're a free-willed, free-thinking individual, unique in your own perspective and empowered to evaluate the world around you, (or even if you BELIEVE yourself to be such a creature), I feel like that's a much more powerful statement of one's life.
Up to you.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
w00t
Who said anything about the relationship decision-making process being unilateral? We are talking about one decision about a gift.
As long as there's TWO people that are getting married and TWO people having a baby or engaging themselves or whatever, there are to voices to be heard.
Can I be in the room when you tell a woman that "TWO people are having a baby"? It should prove quite entertaining. Yes, two people conceived the baby and two people are responsible for its upbringing, but only one of those people is going to share her body for nine months with another being and only one of those people are going to have her privates ripped apart when the being decides to be born.
With respect to the issue at hand, however, we are not talking about who is going to do the dishes tonight. We are talking about a gift being given by one for the other. As a general rule, giving a gift is not about the giver. When the issue at hand is one of the single most significant gifts of a lifetime, then really, the giver should be focused entirely on what the recipient wants and not their own petty political issues.
If my logic is not required, my counterpart can go find someone whose logic he/she DOES require. And I hope my partner thinks the same.
That is absurd reasoning on your part. Very few single decisions in any relationship are 50/50 propositions. Very few are also 100/0. Most are 60/40, 75/25, or even 90/10. Sometimes one partner is on the weighted end, sometimes the other is. An engagement ring is an example of what should be a 90/10 decision in favor of the woman. A house is an example of what should be a 50/50 decision.
Over the course of a healthy relationship, the give and take approaches 50/50. I doubt anyone is truly in a relationship that has averaged to 50/50. I am willing to bet no one has ever been in a relationship in which every decision was based on equal consideration of each partner's desires.
Or is this a remarkable view on relationships?
No, it is a terribly naive view of relationships.