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Ask About Setting Up a Community ISP
The Ruby Ranch Internet Cooperative (RRIC) is one of the best-known member-owned ISPs around. It provides DSL service to the Ruby Ranch neighborhood in Summit County, Colorado. Carl Oppedahl, the RRIC "main man," has agreed to answer Slashdot questions about the possibilities and pitfalls of setting up something similar in other areas. Please read the RRIC FAQs before posting a question so that you don't ask something Carl has already answered a million times. Otherwise, the usual Slashdot interview rules apply: One question per post, we'll email Carl 10 of the highest-moderated questions, and post his answers as soon as he gets them back to us.
How did you website (which I assume is located on your ISP) handle the slashdotting you just recieved? Didn't expect that, did ya??
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
What is the first step in creating a rural co-op?
Dear Mr. Oppedahl:
Your ISP reminds me much of a credit union, which is essentially a nonprofit, member-owned bank. I recall reading about large, commercial banks lobbying to prevent credit unions from gaining some of the same priviledges enjoyed by regular banks.
In this age of utility monopoly abuse, do you have any concerns about any of the large, commercial telecom interests (ie Qwest) lobbying the government to make it difficult, if not impossible to set up or maintain ISPs similar to yours? Thank you.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
It seems that a lot of the problems/issues related specifically to the Colorado Public Utilities Board and their laws.
What items/issues do you feel are universal to any broadband/ISP startup? [Licensing, incorporation, etc.]
Where would one go for the state/county specific issues for each particular ISP?
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
The FAQ will probably be slashdotted real soon, so here's the list of questions, at least:
Frequently asked questions about the Coop
Why all this struggle with Qwest?
Why didn't you simply use a wireless solution instead of renting subloops from Qwest?
Why didn't you simply bury your own cable instead of renting subloops from Qwest?
Why don't you simply use a broadband satellite connection?
Why are the modem speeds provided on Qwest phone lines so slow? And why won't Qwest provide DSL?
Infrastructure
What equipment are you using?
What did it cost?
System design issues
Why are you using SDSL? Why are you not using line sharing?
Exactly what DSL technology are you using? What DSL chip are you using?
What line speeds do subscribers get? Do they get a dedicated IP address? Can they operate servers?
Why did you place the DSLAM at the cross-connect box rather than at the SLC (remote terminal)?
How exactly does your temperature monitor work?
Implementation issues
What exactly do you order from Qwest to hook up a new subscriber?
What quality of lines has Qwest provided?
How reliable is your point-to-point microwave link?
How do you monitor your system?
What do you suggest your subscribers use for lightning protection?
Financial planning issues
What were your startup costs?
What are the non-recurring costs associated with adding a subscriber?
What are your recurring costs?
What do you charge your subscribers to sign up?
What will you charge your subscribers per month?
How many subscribers did you need to decide to launch service?
Diagrams and maps
May we see a system diagram?
May we see a neighborhood map?
May we see a map showing the neighborhood and the telco central office?
Other Internet Coops and local broadband efforts
Are there other Internet Coops?
How have others set up local broadband systems?
From the first concept to launch
What was the time line?
What is the most difficult part about starting a community ISP? Is it getting people interested, obtaining finances, finding people with the technical knowledge required to set up and maintain the system, licencing requirements, infrastructure, or something else? More importantly, how did you overcome this problem?
$60/month seems relatively expensive for a 206Kbps SDSL connection when compared to other cable/satellite/DSL offerings. While this may provide users with greater upstream speeds, most users would benefit more from the faster downstream connections from the aforementioned providers than a better upstream rate.
What advantages does the co-op model offer to subscribers over a traditional ISP that would justify the added expense? How is the subscriber experience different from what would be expected from a large national provider?
ByteMyCode.com: A Web 2.0 code sharing community.
Mods have been had.
If someone lived in a Muslem country and spoke english this well, I think they'd AT LEAST spell Muslem right.
Ruby Ridge? We all know how well THAT turned out...
Oh Ruby RANCH.
m00.
Since you pay directly for your traffic, and you've said that you pay from 75-450$ per month (quite a stretch!) have you considered local caching of sites like yahoo, slashdot, etc to save on bandwidth? Also, since you do monitor your network, have you been in a situation where you've had to ask a subscriber to "please use less bandwidth." If not -- if you came to a point where a single household was putting undue strain on the network -- what would the Co-op do?
When in doubt, parenthesize. At the very least it will let some poor schmuck bounce on the % key in vi. (Larry Wall)
How problematic have you found such issues?
How will you deal with the network and legal issues of p2p and warez downloading?
What advice would you give a fledgling ISP regarding dealing with vendors?
Dear Sir,
I have thought many times about this in my area. Only problem is most people are not intrested as it's too much work or too much money. Most of my local community does not even know what DSL is about. They have never had a broadband connect before. How were you able to unite the local community and show them the bennifits of doing this?
Vote early. Vote often. Vote CowboyNeal.
When I was in Westcliffe, CO on vacation, I loved the environment so much I considered quitting my job and starting my own business, providing internet access for the acres of sparse plots of land connected only by dirt roads. However, it seemed fairly unfeasible -- since there's no power grid to fuel wireless repeaters and no public roads or conduits to piggyback -- so it was back to the grindstone for me.
How were you able to overcome the conditional sensitivity of high speed data in a rugged area with little or no public utilities? More importantly, how were you able to offset infrastructure costs for such a risky and inherently profitless venture -- did you receive any grants or did you simply float loans?
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Of course, the mods still could have been had.
In today's tight economy, what are some of the ways you've cut costs?
This Slashdot article on Starbucks and the local coop sort of brings up the point that I wanted to ask about; Competition.
Have you faced any stiff, or just plain mean, competition from groups like Quest or do you expect to do so in the future. Are you worried that someone (quest, AOL, etc.) will decide to come in and stomp you in some way or are they simply uninterested in your local area?
Irvu.
I remember reading somewhere in your agreement with Qwest that you could not provide standard phone over their subloops.
My question is what is your take regarding the limitation above and packet based Voice over IP,
since it is now possible for yourself or an unrelated third party provide VOIP on your DSL lines?
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
Did the co-op ever encounter a point in the planning stage where they wanted to toss everything in the air and just say screw it? If so, what pulled you out of your misery and kept you moving towards your goal?
Moslem and Muslim are both correct, butt chunk.
http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=moslem
There has been a lot of talk in setting up similar systems (wired and wireless) in Northern Virginia* one of the topics that always comes up during the discussions is "How do you handle issues like people using the line to hack other systems or spamming or sending threats or (insert bad thing here) ?"
*Despite the fact that I live 10 minutes from WorldCom and AOL headquaters my ONLY choices for broadband are IDSL (which I chose) or a T1 (which I'm willing to pay for on my own)!
How is you coop incorporated? As a non-profit or as a shareholder coop? Did you investigate the pros and cons of different incorporation models? Any ideas/suggestions for someone else doing this? Did you get any assistance from national co-op organizations? If so, were they helpful? How is your coop governed? Do you hold annual member meetings? Are there other mechanisms for shareholder participation?
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
Is it necessary to have a business-zoned point of presence for your central CO, or can the trunk lines be run to a residential address and the equipment put in the basement?
Here's my favorite relevant quote, from William S. Burroughs: If you're doing business with a religious son of a bitch get it in writing. His word isn't worth shit; not with the good Lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal.
Applies to every kind of religious you might imagine.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
would you say that it is easier dealing with local customers in a personal way that the "big boys" dont? or does this make business harder? do people try to sweet talk you?
I think you can hardly do better in "blood soaked" than stories of God telling you to kill all the women and children along with the men. What book is that in? The Bible. Christians have of course done nothing to persecute others. They didn't, for example, kill millions in the so-called inquisition and the Crusades (the Children's Crusade being one of the really great ones, go look it up), and that's just the easiest example to come up with.
BTW I did ask a Muslem I know about Jihad etc, and he was very clear that the BS about the 49 virgins etc are about as representative of mainstream Islam as Pat Robertson is of mainstream Christianity; i.e. not one damn bit. Of course I don't expect your bigoted ass to actually bother checking on the propaganda you're being fed by the Christian right (who stand right behind those people killing other people if it's "for the right cause"...see the nuremburg files website for another example).
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Obviously you need to monitor your users for bandwidth consumption... What type of information do you store about your user's bandwidth behaviour? Is it more then what the fedral government requires you store about your users? Do the members of the co-op mind being watched, or do they consider it a downside to Co-Op'ed ISPs?
Your mammas flamebait.
What you really mean is, you got broadband so you could pass on the cost of your most likely heavy usage of Intellectual Propertry infringement software onto your ISP instead of at least paying for conducting your own illegal activities yourself?
Of course, this being Slashdot you'll probably reply that "Information wants to be free" at which point I would most likly respond, "Information isn't an animal. It can't want anything. It isn't alive nor does it have any conciousness. And if we're going down that route, then Rent wants to be Paid! Lexus's want to be bought....etc"
I apologize in advance if you have legitimate legal uses for P2P software.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Since the Fedral government may now put a 'tap' on internet connectivity without a warrent, ISPs are required to let feds put taps on the ISP's system. As member of a co-op would you be contacted if the feds put a tap on the ISP? Who gets to know when the feds come in?
Your mammas flamebait.
You speak as if you have read the Quran.
I have.
If you had read the Quran, you would know that the "49 virgins" thing is FROM the pages of Quran.
If it's "BS", then it's definitely BS from those who wrote the Quran.
And one more thing, those who had slammed the planes into WTC and killed over 3000 innocent people are DEFINITELY Moslems.
Yes, Christians in the past have done terrible things. But it's IN THE PAST !
Two wrongs don't make a right.
You just don't equate the wrongs Christians had made in the past to the CURRENT VIOLENCE that are being initiated by the bloody Moslems.
I am NOT saying that Christians have NO sins. It's that in TODAY'S WORLD, it's the Moslems who are perpetrating the violence.
NOT THE CHRISTIANS !
You do owe an apology to the over 3,000 people who have perished in the WTC bombing. They have died because of the bloody Moslem's believe that they will get their fill of 49 virgins (boys and/or girls) who are waiting for them in their "heaven" to "serve" them, just because those bloody assholes have "sacrified" themselves for their bloody "Allah".
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
A few weeks after my start date as a new Web Admin, I find our neighborhood IS director has installed a WebsenseTM client on our web access portal. After many heated battles with the COO, I lost my fight to maintain a open portal for both the IS and IT Departments. The web has lost all sense of worth to us now. Imagine any security setting available, then jack it up 3 more levels, that is the extent of our denials. No FTP, No search engine , No IM client existant (at least that we have tried) has access. This hinders our work severly all in the guise of "Corporate Efficency". Any request for these type of access surrounded in forms, "Who its for" "Where its going" so on and so forth. A simple file transfer or upload is so difficult. An alternative like this would be a godsend for my comrades and I, even if it is against our internet policy and could get us fired. It would be easier to be unemployeed than the BS we have to take now
My ignorance is a perfect shield against your logic.
Let me quote you:
"BTW I did ask a Muslem I know about Jihad etc, and he was very clear that the BS about
the 49 virgins etc are about as representative of mainstream Islam as
Pat Robertson is of mainstream Christianity; i.e. not one damn bit."
1. Will that "Muslem you asked" (or is THAT YOU ?!) tell the REAL TRUTH, about Jihad, and/or about the 49 virgins ?
2. If you want to get mainstream for the Moslems, you can't go further than that bloody Quran. The "49 virgins awaiting in heaven for those who martyled themselves for Allah" bit is IN THE QURAN !
Pray tell, where in Bible do you see any mention of "Pat Robertson"?
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Are there any devices (surveillance etc.) mandated by BigBrother?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like Ruby Ranch is a fairly well-to-do area that can support the costs of running an ISP. Do you think it is possible for community groups in low income areas to run co-op ISPs? Any advice pro or con?
You sez:
"God knows, Christians and Christian countries have
never done anything bad to foreigners."
At the very least, no Christians have slammed two planes into tall buildings in the Moslem countries.
Moslems, on the other hand, has done so, to the World Trade Center in New York City.
Just in case you have forgotten, over 3,000 innocent people were brutally murdered !
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
dear lord people give this poor man a break.
here's a mirror of the faq. i hope it helps.
-- john
How do you get even a small community to agree to undertake something like this and when problems do arise who is responsible for the technical support?
Are there legal or regulatory barriers to setting up an ISP co-op that you feel should be addressed by legislation?
The people who hit the WTC were no more Muslim than Hitler was Jewish. They violated many key parts of the religion they claim to follow.
Take your hate speech somewhere else.
Have you had any problems with people breaking into eachothers machines, and if so, how did you handle it? Is there a policy in place forbidding this kind of thing? And have you had anyone from outside your network break in?
Do you have any plans to go national with your ISP? Why or why not?
No, our Christians find it much more effective to use the planes to drop bombs from high above. You get to destroy as many buildings as you like, and you get to keep the plane & its crew, too!
Do you think it was worth all the effort you put it (especially since your not getting paid)?
As mentioned in your FAQ, if someone hogs too much bandwidth, you'll charge that user for the bandwidth they use. What do you do in the case of complaints against a user for spam, pornography, or other less than desirable uses? Since it's a co-op and the costs are shared, what about the responsibility? What if the ISP was targeted as a spam host or if one of the people under your ISP was serving illegal MP3s or something more sinister like child pornography? Does the entire Co-op suffer or are you able to target and remove the offending person (and avoid any legal costs that might be brought against the ISP)?
IIRC, the DSLAM and other relevant gear was stored in a barn. How do you keep the animals from messing with it?
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
As a non-profit or as a shareholder coop?
Read the fucking page, would you? It's right on the first fucking page.
Click a link, it's not that fucking tough.
The opposite of progress is congress
I Looooovvvve that quote! One of my all time faves from William.
it's kinda off topic, when the qur'an addresses this topic it states that all business should be done in writing with a witness present. it also stresses this when doing business with people of the jewish persuasion.
Free cell phone tracking
One area where open-source is doing great is in monitoring projects, such as Big Brother, NetSaint , Nagios, and others. I'm curious as to why you went with a commercial product instead of a free (as in beer and speech) one.
What difference has your service made in the local community? Can you cite specific instances where your service impacted the lives of others, for good or for, uh, not so good?
I'm served by a telecom cooperative in my community (Souris River Telecom in Minot, ND). I couldn't be happier: local and long-distance phone service is very inexpensive, they've set up an all-digital cellular network in their coverage area that's $20/month for basically unlimited talk-time, and I get 1 megabit (bothways) DSL with a static IP and no limits on servers I set up for $40/month. Oh, and here's the kicker: when I call them with a question or for service I get a real, live person on the other end and am routed to someone who can actually help me the first time!
I used to live in an area that was served by an electric co-op. It was the same situation with great service, great value, and they were constantly pushing at the edges of the state-of-the-art. The investor-owned electric utility that serves me now couldn't care less about me as a person, my needs, or future plans for my home or business. They just want to see the check at the end of the month and they will keep operating the way the do (utility wise if not business wise) until they are forced to change by regulatory changes.
So to get to my question: as advantageous to the customer as the cooperative principles are, why aren't more utilities set up this way?
obviously no deficiencies vs. no obvious deficiencies
I work for a small ISP that went through all the same issues as you. We had to become a CLEC, install our own DSLAM in a Qwest central office, and are currently going through IMA. So what I'm saying is your internet setup looks totally independent of whether it's an Internet Coop or a for profit company. Is there a technology advantage to making it a coop, or is it purely financial?
Have you had to deal with the RIAA or blocking songs or ports or anything, basicly DMCA violations?
Based on the FAQ, it looks like you considered a lot of different possible options, and really did your homework. Are there any aspects of the project that weren't perhaps as optimal as you'd like, that you would have done differently? (Not counting things not under your control, like having to contend with Qwest.)
Lately democracy seems to be based on the skybox, the Happy Meal box, the X-box, and the idiot box.
After reading your FAQ about how you are currently limiting your connection speeds to 206 kbps to avoid passing costs to your customers. Since you are hosting your own web site, how do you plan to deal with the spike of bandwidth to your site without passing great costs to the others in RR?
It's not buried anywhere It's on the Front Page.
And then you have the nerve to insult me by ascribing a nervous disorder to me. If you weren't the 50th person to post a question that was 1.) already answered and 2.) on the first page of the site, I wouldn't lose my shit. Tough to tell whether you're trolling or stupid.
Boy, you're fucking dense.
The opposite of progress is congress
Were you able to tap into any grant money for rural community Internet providers, are or are these funding sources a thing of the past? I was under the impression there is money available for rural Internet infrastructure - is it real, or is it vaporcash?
C'mon, baby, kiss The King.
Your Local Zoning Laws May (read definitely will) Vary. There doesn't have to be a rational basis for, nor a discernable pattern to their variation. So this one can only be answered by your local zoning board.
It looks as though you have some possible points of failure: The T1 between NetTrack in Boulder and O&L in Dillon, and the single microwave tower at O&L. I noticed that there are two microwave towers from there on. Are there any plans for redundancy for your connection should the single microwave tower at O&L be lost or the T1 between NetTrack and O&L go down?
After reading through most of the FAQ, it would appear that the co-op has a very good relationship with the Oppedahl & Larson LLP law firm. I would posit that of key importance in this venture is not acquiring the routing gear, the microwave tower gear, the DSLAMs or DSL modems, but rather getting one of your volunteers to be an attorney! Getting Qwest to allow the co-op to rent subloops would have cost a considerable amount of money in attorney fees, if a law firm were not a board member of the co-op (and the location of the T1+microwave gear ;)).
I remember what it cost to incorporate my business, to enter into a lease for an office space, to agree to terms for insurance for the office space, etc. Thousands of dollars, easily. And we went with a local law firm, recommended by another small business - so we weren't getting shafted, at least not relatively so.
Cheers.
I noted in the FAQ that there is mention of the fact that the service is billed on a quarterly basis (rather than monthly) for ease of administration.
Being an employee of one of the few DSL DLEC's left out there in RBOC-space (due to the fact that partner ISP's/wholesale purchasers tended to burst along with the hideously over-eschewed dotcom bubble), this is an issue that hits very close to home for me:
Do you anticipate, or have any contingencies for, a time when the co-op will not be able to meet it's financial obligations to it's various providers?
Obviously, size does matter in this case, but this is still a valid question. What if 20 (half of the reported number of) homes in Ruby Ranch are destroyed in one of the Colorado "super-fires", for example? Can the co-op continue to maintain network equipment and availability at half revenue (assuming that some portion of the 20 homes constitutes half the subscriber base)?
you know, this is exactly what causes these types of incidents to occur in the first place.
some thoughtless person attempts to "expound" (however incorrectly) on the theology/ideology of something he/she has little-to-no information about or on the items at the top of his/her own personal agenda. (ever heard the expression "a little knowledge is dangerous")
if they're a good enough politician or the people listening are under enough economic/social strain, this person sounds like they have all the right answers; shortly thereafter, those who were once just listeners are then pointing guns (or dirty words) at the enemies of the pontificator/know-it-all/loudmouthed bastard.
this brings to mind pictures of hitler, mussolini, and (more recently) bin laden and the taco cowboy.
I am trying to do the same thing in my SBC Ameritech community. I've been told I have to register with some state agency and then I will qualify to begin the SBC Ameritech process of becoming a CLEC. It looks to me like I would have to hire a telecommunications attorney to figure out all the paperwork and then finally get to install a $5,000 DSLAM out at the remote terminal. Are they making me jump through too many hoops?
Since the day our Co-Op in Chicago was founded, one of the biggest member "users" has been a local law firm, and half of the original board were attorneys (down to 25% now). In retrospect, such a high concentration of lawyers was pretty much a pre-requisite, given the name of the Co-op.
Having a place to meet and being able to get all of the legal issues out of the way (without paying attorney fees) made it possible to get the organization off the ground on a "shoestring" budget.
We also ended up with what I feel is a really solid set of bylaws.
the \. coders should implement a seperate poll-like mod system for these interview type things. that what the questions actually posed would be more reflective of what WE actually want to know.
pls discuss
If so were they helpful?
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
If TClevenger is the Terry Clevenger who worked at Litton Data Systems in the '80s, could you drop me an email at "sconeu@yahoo.com"?
Thanks.
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
Do you think this would be a worthwhile endevour for communities to persue if they are already serviced by a local telecom company, but for whatever reason aren't happy with there options? ie, poor service, cost too high given the local income level, etc.
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
from faq
q:Why all this struggle with Qwest?
a:Qwest says they can't bring a T1 line anywhere near our neighborhood
I thought the FCC tariff for phone companies had a REQUIREMENT that t-1 service be available to anyone in the US with telephone service.. or large ugly fines resulted.
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Did any of your members have prior experience either as members or organizers of a co-op (e.g., housing, food, etc.)? And if they did, how beneficial was their prior experience?
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
Are you the only person that has "enable" level access to all the equipment? Do some of the subscribers have "enable" access?
I am currently involved in a project where we are trying to launch a WaveLAN based internet service to custerom's in a small area (200-300 houses). No DSL alterantives are available from any major supplier, and the cost of a pair of copper wires alone makes using DSL to expensive for the customer.
Initially, at least 50 people reported interest. We later learned there were many people interested who had not responded to the initial call for interest. It looks like there are 50-100 houses in the area seriously interested in an internet connection of this kind.
We recently started taking orders; so far we have slightly about 10. Probably because most people are waiting for other people's experience, etc. We're not sure. We have a few cards to play in order to spice up interest, but not much.
How did *you* get people to commit?
/ Peter Schuller
--
peter.schuller@infidyne.com
http://www.scode.org
Did local government help, hinder, or just keep out of the way? Likewise, would positive support from applicable local governments really have benefited your project? I would guess you folks are in an unicorporated area of the County, with few onerous restrictions on this typs of activity, however with no local government to provide support (facilities, funding, political support, etc.)
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
Other communities trying to replicate your experience may not be so lucky. Do you have any advice on how to get legal assistance, for groups not having law firms as among their early members?
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
With the big players, its often easier to purchase the more expensive equipment necessary to provide a thoroughly enjoyable experience towards its users. ie, corporate entities that can make mega-deals and grab huge discounts on gear.
Where would you recommend looking for the necessary equipment to create a smaller ISP. At some other organizations I've worked for, we have had jointly purchased equipment with other smaller ISP's for a price break. These smaller shops drying up or selling out in the wake of the dot com bust, I would like to hear your recommendations and approaches on this subject.
Ideally, if someone could list some affordable vendors of goods I would be overjoyed.
"You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
Many people in the Slashdot community have been following your efforts for many months now. Frankly, the "David VS Goliath" aspects of the case make this a very interesting story. I always love it when the little guy wins!
It seems that Qwest was more than a little unwilling and uncooperative with you. Many of us have been there and done that in much smaller doses. Those of us that have been there would love to change that - force the monopolys to deal with small entities or even individuals appropriately and fairly. Many of us are of the opinion that is a big reason why we have government in the first place (to protect the little guy and make sure he gets a fair shake).
As people - what can we do to make sure Qwest and similar entities are made to deal with us little folks more fairly?
I'm currently in the process of setting up a basic community wireless co-op in my little town. I'm opening a store downtown (for a different business project) but plan to put an AP there to service businesses in the area. I'm currently going el-cheapo, with linksys WAP11s and high-gain omni antennas. In your opinion, is there a 'perfect' setup for each implementation type, e.g. long-range backhaul vs. wide area coverage, consisting of a WAP and antennae, to provice access. And how does cost balance out for you if you go for the more expensive Orinoco APs or some such?
Thanks for the advice.
You sez:
"Perhaps there's a special "Pat Robertson" edition of the Bible for sale?"
For the Moslems, they don't need "special edition" of their Quran, because EACH AND EVERY Quran CLEARLY STATED that the DEVIL they are worshiping, the so-called "Allah", has prepared for them 49 VIRGINS in their "heaven" to be "enjoyed" (you use your own imagination on how to "enjoy the virgins") so long as that individual sacrifies him/herself in the name of Allah.
In other words, the DEVIL is spreading his power over the world, by promising to its followers, the Moslems, that doing ANYTHING in the name of "Allah", including killing babies, WILL BE WELCOMED AND ENCOURAGED, and as a reward, the DEVIL will prepare 49 virgins for that fella to enjoy.
Moslems are EVIL WORSHIPPERS. They worship the DEVIL, the so-called "Allah".
No matter how those Moslems want to deny it, the "Allah" they worship is THE DEVIL.
No matter what terrible things the Christians have done, at least, Jesus Christ did NOT kill anyone in his lifetime. Instead, Jesus spread the message of love.
Not so for the Moslems. Their "prophet" spread the message of BLOOD, HATREDS, MURDER.
The first anniversary of September 11 is just 3 weeks away. We MUST NOT forget what the Moslems have done to us.
We must be vigilant ! We must know that the Moslems' "Allah" is THE DEVIL, and DEVIL will not stop at just bringing down the WTC. The final aim of THE DEVIL is to bring down the WHOLE WORLD, and that is what we are witnessing - the Moslems are creating HAVOC in the whole world.
From India to Sudan to USA to Indonesia to USA to Italy, Moslems everywhere are plotting violence against all the non-Moslems.
Pope John Paul II was nearly assassinated years ago, by a Moslem. Now, another Moslem has gone online, in Poland, claiming that he is going to kill the Pope.
One day if we don't get rid of these menace of human kind, our world will never get any peace.
Yes, true. Jesus Christ asked us to love our enemies, but if our enemies listen to THE DEVIL, and they will NOT STOP until they kill us all, please tell me how can I "love" that kind of enemy if all they want is to kill me ?
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
You sez:
"No, our Christians find it much more effective to use the planes to drop bombs from
high above. You get to destroy as many buildings as you like, and you get to keep the
plane & its crew, too!"
That above practice isn't solely the "priviledge" of the Christians.
The Japs have done it to Pearl Harbor, among other places, during WW II.
The Chinese (atheists and Buddhists) have done that to each others when they fought their civil war.
The Moslems in Sudan have done that to the minority Christians in the south.
And Moslems elsewhere have done similar thing to other Moslems, and also non-Moslems in their own countries.
So don't blame only the Christians.
On the other hand, the Moslems are the ONLY ONE who have slammed 2 passenger jets into WTC, killing over 3,000 innocent people.
No Christians, nor Buddhists, nor Hindu, nor Jews, nor Atheists have done such a thing.
Not yet anyway.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
-This might seem trivial, but I have a basic question. Exactly WHAT hardware and software do you use for the first connection to the net? I see the t-1, "upstream provider", etc, but I need more basic info. Like what's the first software/hardware does an ISP need in general, not past the isp to the customers, that is documented well, it's the point right exactly "there", the actual "internet" connection I am confuseth on. I just don't get it yet. Say I get a "t-1" to my place. OK, I fork out a grand, now I got a big ole wire hanging there in the room, swell. How does it hookup, what softwares and machine do you run for the ISP's net connection? thanks in advance
wannabe rural isp guy who doesn't know enough yet but is willing to learn. My expertise is a lot more 'alternative power" for this rural ISP deal, that part I got down, heh.
You... didn't bother to actually look at the page before bringing this up did you?
/. users)
The page is text only, and not a lot of it. Every page throughout the site has been very optimized for low bandwidth usage.
GG "People that don't bother looking at links before commenting on them". (read: ignorant
I am wondering since the area you serve is pretty large, how do you store the servers? Also, what OS do you use?
There have been stories of broadband ISPs blocking filesharing via gnutella or a Napster client. Do you support this idea?
Support the Chagossians
If you were starting from scratch and doing it all over again in your exact same situation, is there anything you would do dramatically differently?
What is the procedure to set up a coop? Is it the same from state to state? As you are an attorney did you do all of the paperwork yourself? What are the advantages and disadvantages of a coop over the other forms of organization?