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Talk To a Convicted Warez Guy
Chris Tresco is one of those evil "software pirates" cybermoms warn you about. He was a sysadmin at MIT, and also a member of "the secretive Internet software trading ring known as 'DrinkOrDie'" who got caught by the DoJ's Operation Buccaneer, got convicted, and was sentenced to 33 months in prison on August 16. Chris has a little time left on the outside before he goes away and has agreed to spend some of it answering your questions, so ask away. (Usual Slashdot interview rules.)
1) Are you guilty?
2) If so, do you feel what you were doing should be illegal?
3) If so, why did you do it anyways?
Lots of things are illegal, a lot of them arent wrong. A lot of them are. Which did you do?
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
I occassionly go warez shopping with carracho, should I be worried about a prison term for browsing these servers? Exactly how much software do you need to have to get 33 months in jail?
What motivated you to pirate software? Was it just because you could? Or were you trying to make some sort of philosophical statement regarding commercial software and the like?
Eddy.WriteLinux.Com
There's been a lot of talk about DRM being built into Microsoft's next generation of operating systems. XP currently has the major annoyance (especially from a piracy perspective) of registration...do you think these new efforts will be able to significantly reduce the prevalance of Warez?
Slashdot 's editors are dickheads
The popular "pro-warez" argument is that if software companies made big-ticket products (for example, Photoshop) available for a lower cost, the demand for warez would drop. As someone in the know, do you think that's at all true?
33 months seems like an outrageous sentence. It seems unjust. The old guy who has been in charge of the photocopier at my local library for the last 20 years would be on death row if similar criteria were applied to him.
Do you think that justice in the USA these days is too influenced by corporations?
Doesn't the conviction of the DOD principles on traditional copyright infringement grounds negate the "digital is different" theme of the constant call by the (MP|RI)AA for stronger anti-circumvention measures?
Would stronger anti-circumvention laws or technical protective measure (TPMs) have affect the operations of DOD?
Do you think the DOD's conspicuous visibility (and the ease of online searches), made DOD easier to target that the street-corner DVD, VCD, and VCR vendors?
Is there any way to distribute content online that a copyright holder would not be able to find the that content -- assuming that the content was visible enough to have (in the language of fair use) an "impact on the fair market value of the work"?
Did you get busted for copying from someone else and making available, or by making copies you bought/got from school available?
M@
Krispy Cream is people
When you get out, if you were offered a high-paying job to do so, would you use your knowledge to help protect software from other crackers?
Cantankerous old coot since 1957.
Do you believe that this all out attack on the technically knowledgable by the digital illiterati enforcing the bloated bottomline of many of these companies will lead to an eventual electronic revolution or do you see the united states becoming controlled by copyright owners and corporations? And do you see hackers eventually out numbering the number of people in prison on drug related crimes?
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Would you agree with the notion that many software companies aren't really losing much to piracy since someone who pirates, say, a copy of Adobe Photoshop would never have purchased it in the first place due to the outrageous cost?
Personally, there is a lot of software out there that I would find useful, though I couldn't afford to (legally) own it. I think that if Adobe charged half of what they do for, say, a current version of Photoshop, they would likely sell MORE legal copies and enjoy larger market penetration and larger profits. What's your take on this?
What was "The Bust" like? Was it like _WarGames_ where they showed up in black vans and confiscated your computers and rifiled through your trash? Or was it more like _Matrix_ where they called you in and presented all sorts of evidence they collected online etc.. ?
M@
Krispy Cream is people
Why isn't there more Mac warez? I had a hell of time finding Office v.X
Check out AbiWord.
do you think the average warez kiddie will ever get convicted of "warezing" or do you think that it will always be the release groupz?
"Martha Stewart can lick my Scrotum......do i have a scrotum?" -- Sharon Osbourne
What kind of a case did the prosecutor build against you at your trial, and in the court of public opinion via the "news?" And, what do you think of its merits (or lack thereof?) Do you feel that they were unnecessarily harsh or overly light on you? Do you think that they were trying to make an example of you or not?
Did they call you a "threat to modern society" or just a "guy who'd erred from the straight and true?"
What, do you feel, is the moral difference between what you have been convicted of doing and what everyone else here has probably done at one point or another?
On a personal note, 33 months of your life is a horrendous price to pay. Good luck, man.
Cheers,
-- RLJ
The incredibly large volume of warez DoD was trading must have been staggering. At any point in time did you or anyone else in DoD ever think that the whole ring was getting way out of hand? If so, what ever came from that or those discussions?
Did the prosecution offer you a "deal" if you would talk and testify against other members of your group?
If so, did you talk in exchange for a lighter sentence? Or did you stay silent and let only yourself take the rap?
Are you scared about going to prison? Do they prepare you in any way before you enter the facility, or do they just throw you in and that's it?
Just typing these questions make me uncomfortable.
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Were you stealing bandwidth from MIT to do this? Or were you hacking into other people's boxes to get the bandwidth?
If you were stealing bandwidth, how much bandwidth do you think you stole from MIT? Did someone there have anything to do with the prosecution, either as a witness or as a whistleblower? Did you feel any moral qualms about stealing from a university?
If you mostly got your bandwidth through hacking, what do you imagine were the costs to the companies to repair the damage from the hacks? Did you feel any qualms about abusing other people's property?
Also, if you were hacking into other people's machines to open up Warez sites, what is the closest analogy to a physical property crime you can imagine? I envision going through the "house for sale" flyer to find unoccupied and poorly monitered homes in my neighborhood, using lockpick (or breaking a window) to get inside, and then "remodeling" it a little bit on the inside so that I could throw huge parties for hundreds or thousands of people. Is this an accurate description of the type of hacking being done, or would you compare it to something else?
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
Some warez seems to involve incredible programming effort, developing custom install tools to e.g. convert MP3'd WAVs back to the originals, deal with movie resampling to save space, etc., not to mention substantial reverse-engineering work to break copy protection schemes. Who does all this? Are they professional programmers with spare time? Bored college students? High school students?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
How much money would you say that developers lost because of your pirating ring?
How much would you say all of the downloaded software was worth?
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
How do you feel about going to jail? I know that sounds stupid, so let me clarify.
Do you look at it as a miscarriage of Justice? That the goverment and big buisness are railroading you.
Or was it the price to be paid? Kind of a personal Civil Disobediance, that you knew what could happen, and did it anyway. And if it was a Civil Disobediance issue, do you think it will have a major impact on Piracy, either positive or negative?
"To Do Is To Be" - Socrates, "To Be Is To Do" - Sartre, "Do Be Do Be Do" - Sinatra
What was the first piece of software you pirated?
What was the weirdest piece of software you pirated?
What was the most memorable piece of software you pirated?
1) Why did you do it? Was it for a thrill, for fun, because you knew the software companies were overcharging, or for another reason?
2) I've heard rumours that some large software companies actually leak software out on purpose because they realize the importance of getting their product out to be used and tested in order to spark intrest in it. Do you believe this is true?
If you plan not to pirate software again would you chose to pay for commercial apps or would you use free software?
Has your opinion changed about free software vs commercial software because of your unfortunate experience?
Do you think strong armed tactics by the BSA and upcoming drm will actually help spread free software?
http://saveie6.com/
Except the personal stuff of course.
Do you still belive that spreading warez is ok and that you were sacrificed, or will you speak against it and never do it again?
I am sure everyone that got caught wish that they never did get caught, the question really is if they wished that they had done something else, or that the police had target someone else instead.
You have been found guilty, but do you feel guilty?
Who do you think is more responsable for the demise of coutless small development companies - the publishers, the warez community, or the development companys themselves? And why?
Thad
Games Developer.
Thad
I am assuming (and hoping) that you are being sent to a "minimum" security facility.
33 months, I'm sure you'll have some free time; do you plan to study anything in particular? (I.e. Programming, hardware, philosophy, art, etc...)
Second question, how is your family taking your (future) incarceration?
Take care... I do hope that you don't have to serve the full 33 months.
Was it a fair trial?
why or why not?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You've just slagged 'sysadmins.'
Next, you'll be telling us that Computer Operators in general are semi-skilled monkeys in white coats trained to mount tapes and plug in disk packs.
Oh, wait! That's the truth, as anybody who was an 'operator' (i.e. myself) back in the days of 9 track tape can tell you.
'Sysadmins' are the janitors of Information Technology, no matter HOW much the current crop of adolescents looks up to them like boys in the past admired riverboat pilots and railroad engineers.
When considering the crime youve been 'convicted' of; my question is simple: Why goto jail at all? If you are presently on the outside, why not skip out of the country altogether?
Ive considered it in the past, going to jail is simply not an option for myself -- Why dont you go down to Mexico and get out of North America?
Plan to keep in contact with your friends in the Warez biz, even if you yourself never re-enter it?
I've been under the impression that the warez "scene" is more about status and human interaction than anything else.
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
I am a cracker from a fairly well known group, living in the US. We take normal precautions (encrypted email/irc), but there are clear vulnerabilities that cant easily be eliminated (topsite accounts and the possibility of trojaned supplied software, etc.). The dod bust stunned all of us with the lengths of the sentences, which seem out of proproportion to the crime. I find myself asking more and more whether the risk is worth the fun. We are all in it for the commaraderie and the friends (and the access to files); of course none of us are making any money from it. My question is, if you had it to do over again, would you stay out of a group, and of the scene? Were there risks you took that you sholdn't have? What were they? Any advice to someone still in the scene who wants to stay but worries about being caught?
How do you feel about the rise of P2P and it's affects on the Warez community? Do you think it makes it safer (safety in numbers?) or do you think that it'll bring down the fist of the law even harder?
Which P2P networks did you prefer, if any?
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
MIT has just about everything a student needs, you didn't need all of that stuff. Are you a kleptomaniac? I'm not trying to beat up on you, I'm just curious how you slept at night or what you told yourself to sleep at night. And if you didn't have any problems sleeping at night do you stay awake at night now wondering why your sense of right and wrong didn't or doesn't conincide with the laws of your country?
My understanding of this is that you were involved with the illegal distribution of copyrighted works, depriving the potential owners of money for the works (possibly - the reality may be "probably not," but...). You then received 33 months of jail time (or just under 3 years) which seems to me to be rather fair.
Based on the Operation Buccaneer information, you received counts of felony (criminal copyright infringement, probably), and conspiracy (to commit criminal copyright infringement, probably). (Both probablies are guesses based on the document.) This seems to be in line with what one would expect for charges against a ring of people whose sole goal is to steal massive quantities of software and redistribute them to as many people as want them at no charge. (The fact that there was no charge probably reduces the sentence to a degree, but the fact that it required specialized skills and involved a large collective of people acting together to commit criminal copyright infringement probably both outweigh that.)
So... why should I feel sorry for you? You got what you deserved. You stole from people and gave copies to as many people as you could. Based on the MIT press release, you illegal utilized systems you were supposed to be administrating for the purposes of illegally distributing software. As far as I can see, you got exactly what you deserved.
So - prove me wrong. Demonstrate that my understanding is flawed or that I am misunderstanding the crime. Demonstrate that it should not be a crime. Or - accept my view. Explain if you feel sorry for your actions and believe that you did indeed commit the crimes. Or come up with another response that does not fall directly between agree and disagree.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
If you were the judge, what kind of sentence would you have handed down to yourself?
(Lets be reasonable, no 100 hours of "community service" breast exams at the Ford Modeling Agency)
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
The only law being broken is copyright violations. Copyright violations are not theft of service.
Once you realize that copyright is artifical chains that the public places on itself for a certain goal, and not a 'right' of authors, then you'll realize that the morals aren't quite so clear cut. Industry's reframing of the copyright debate from "quid pro quo" to "we must have absolute protection" has caused the issue to become twisted and unrecognizable from what the foundations of the US were built on.
Furthermore, the copyright law as it has been implemented is clearly not in line with the generic arguments for it. Copyright has been modified several times over the last century, each time designed solely to protect the industries solely at Congress's bargaining table and to lock out up-and-coming industries, as well as the public. This has caused the US implementation of the law to become quite sick.
Learn your copyright history. I recommend reading Jessica Litman's "Digital Copyright".
Also:
Did you ever think about the money that you were taking away from honest people who work hard and rely on the profits they generate from software sales or did you only think about yourself while committing your crimes?
Warmest regards,
--Jack
Wagner LLC Consulting Co. - Getting it right the first time
How did you get caught, from your point of view ?
Because that involved the FBI and a lot of people worldwide, there should have been some indications that troubles where coming, or did they manage to stay in stealth mode until they hit?
From what us non-insiders know of, a hacker group is somewhat organized with different isolated layers, and very few connections between those layers, but the one needed to make it works. This ends up beeing a kind of CIA-like organisation, more or like.
Of course, the very nature of internet greatly help that, but i'm wondering : from an insider point of view, did this kind of organisation just "emerge", or where you briefed by someone else?
Of course, the lwa-enforcment greatly over-estimated the importance of DrinkOrDie. They need to justify the tax-payer money they are throwing out of the window: see some interesting file.
But overall, how was your oragnisation preceived by its peers cracking groups?[Pruneau
From the movie Blow:
"I went in with a bachelor's of marijuana and came out with a doctorate in cocaine."
I personally believe that (with a few case-by-case exceptions), non-violent offenders should not be thrown in jail as a rule. What is wrong with giving them community service and the like? Thsis warez guy could have spent his time teaching disadvantaged children how to use a computer.
The question should be; do they pose a threat to other people and need to be removed from society? Pirating software (however your feelings on the subject) doesn't do that.
Or it could just be that prison is more about vengence rather than justice.
One of the things about jail is that you have nothing but free time. So what do you plan to do? Study for a new career? Work out constantly? Plan your escape? Learn to speak Sanskrit?
When you get out, you will have had 33 months of basically no real responsibilities. If you find a nice, cushy prison, you can get some real work done. Are you going to use this time to make your life when you get out of jail better?
Also, when you get out, what do you plan to do? Something in the computer field, or do you plan to change your path when you get out? If I were in your place, I think I'd just get fed up with computers and become a florist or something.
Synergy is your friend
Is it illegal to make copies of software? Well, that depends on how much you actually copy. Is is wrong to make copies of software? Well, that's up to your personal ethical code.
Just because you say it is wrong doesn't mean it is. Is it wrong to get an abortion? Is it wrong to smoke pot? A lot of people will give you different opinions on the ethics of those issues, regardless of their legal standing.
Yes there are people who don't do it, agreed, but your declaration that it's simply wrong is a bit self-righteous.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Considering Nate Newton was caught red handed TWICE within a month trying to smuggle nearly 400 POUNDS total of marijuana into the country, and is sentenced to three months LESS than you are?
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Or at least mentioned.
How does his crime sentence compare to other crimes that involve copying? I wonder how it would compare to, say, wholesale duplication of $100 bills? Everyone always compares piracy to software theft, when in reality, it's much closer to counterfeiting. Both the copyright system and the monetary system rely on government imposed scarcity. The hard question that some people here on Slashdot need to ask themselves, is can the economy survive if that artificial scarcity is removed.
In my personal opinion, I believe the world would be a much better (and radically different) place if copyright is cut short. In this hectic information age, can anyone imagine a world where copyright only lasted 5 years from publication? I'd love to see a reasoned debate on this issue.
And, for my question to the convicted pirate... What is his personal view on the politics of copyright, and what his views (if any) are of what life would be like under such a system.
Bork!
In hindsight, were there things happening in the days or weeks prior to your arrest that should have tipped you off that something was not right?
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
Can you tell us about the whole process of getting busted and interrogated? How was the DOJ able to learn about all the members and execute simultaneous busts?
How hard did the DOJ interrogators push to get names of accomplices and if you cooperated, did that reduce your sentencing?
What advice would you give to someone who finds themselves in a similar situation? e.g. ( Hire a good pre-trial lawyer. Flee the country. )
I assume that the DOJ confiscated all your servers and went through the logs and examined all the user accounts and IP addresses. What happened to the "small time users" or did the DOJ not bother to track them down?
Lastly, in hindsight if you had to do it all over again. What would you have done to stay under the radar and not get busted?
Sadly its the sugar-shack pound me in the ass prison. The vast majority of laws agaisn't piracy I think( feel free to correct me if I am wrong)are federal and not state. I do know that some states have some laws as well but if the FBI was involved, its more likely part of a federal investigation. Pirating is a very big crime thanks to corporate sponsored bussiness espianoge laws. The same one's used to apply the DMCA world wide and throw Jon Johnson in the slammer. My guess is the guy at MIT was charged by lots of federal laws as well as a few state ones. This would apply for federal prison. Also minimium security prison is no picnic either. There are alot of punk kids who just turned 19 who love a good fight as well as many violent gang members.
My advice to this guy is to agree to get in a staged fight with someone on your first day there. Many people going in would be happy to do so and I will explain why anyone would want to do this.
What I am about to say may make those reading this uncomfortable but its %100 true.
Bullies and rapists go after the weakest people and assuming its %90 black/hispanic and he is a nerdy slim white guy, would get alot of attention from guys who would love to make him their bitch. This guy needs to look tough so they will find someone else to beat up or rape instead. People with dissabilities get raped practically on a nightly basis in lots of prisons. ITs disgusting and sick but after you are their, you sure as hell do not want to go back.
I hate to think what this guy will go through for a several copies of software that he would not of bought anyway.
http://saveie6.com/
Obviously, a move to prison is going to be a very difficult and probably distrubing cultural change from what you're used to.
Have you taken any steps to help yourself assimilate? Meaning, anything physical (e.g. self defense), thing mental (prepared a reading list) and/or things spiritual (e.g. Chuck Colson's pfm.org) ?
Have you set any goals for what you want to accomplish while you're on the inside? How about goals for when you're released?
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